Slaughter Spree - Axtell, Texas

This week, in Axtell, Texas, a horrifying scene emerges as a cold but crazed man goes on a murder spree involving one particular family, leaving multiple people dead. The results are a race against time to find him and his kidnapped wife before it's too late. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another absolutely wild, insane edition of Small Town Murder. I don't know how they keep getting crazier, but we're at episode 695, and somehow they keep getting more and more insane. I don't know. I don't understand it, but here we are, so let's just all enjoy it. So, anyway, before we get to all that, definitely head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Get your merchandise, first of all, everything from skateboards to coffee cups. Oh, yeah. Get your tickets for live shows. 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People keep asking for another one, so let's do it. That'll be a lot of fun. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports. Then, on top of that, you get all we put out. Your stupid opinions, Crime in Sports, Small Town Murder, all ad-free with your Patreon. And you get a shout-out at the end of the show, too. Jimmy will mispronounce your name, even though he'd love to get it correct. That's a certainty. That's disclaimer time. This is a comedy show, everybody. We are comedians. We're going to make jokes, and there's a lot of death on the show. It would be kind of false advertisement if there wasn't. So, it's called Small Town Murder. So, I mean, there's going to be death, and we're going to make fun of it. And you go, well, how do you do that? How does that make sense? Well, we kind of think it's actually kind of a less creepy way to do it. You know, putting, like, ominous music in the background and talking about a dismemberment is kind of creepy, in my opinion. And I'd rather, it's kind of just to ease the tension around it a little bit. But what we don't do to make this okay is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why is that, James? Because we're assholes. But. But we're not scumbags. See how that works? And that's kind of how the line we like to walk and toe there. So, there you go. If you think that sounds good to you, you're going to hear a wild story. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever, ever go together, I don't know why you chose the show, but you should give it a shot anyway and see what you think. But either way, no complaining later. That's what we like to say. That said, I think it's time, everybody, to sit back. What do you say? Let's all clear the lungs here. Arms to the sky. And let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we, Jimmy? Let's do it, my friend. We are going to Texas this week. Yeah. We'll also be in Dallas on September 3rd, so we will be in Texas. This is in Axtell, Texas. Yeah. A-X-T-E-L-L. Hard to, yeah. Small place. Outside of Waco. Yeah, outside of Waco. Oh, boy. Oh, yeah. The western side. It's in East Central Texas is where Waco is. Is that not? No, it's East Central Texas. Is that not West Texas? Nope. That is East Central Texas. Is Plano west of there? No, Plano is outside Dallas. It's a Dallas suburb. I'm not real good with my Texas geography. I just know that that whole state sucks. Yeah, Amarillo's out west. That's what we know. That's up in the top, isn't it? In the top. The panhandle. Yeah. But that's like western. Otherwise, El Paso. There's not a lot in western Texas. Where the fuck is Baylor? It's hot and desert. Baylor is Dallas. It's in one of the cities. Oh. Like around one of the cities. This is East Central Texas. About an hour and a half to Dallas. About an hour and 50 to Austin. It's way over there. Yeah, kind of in between there. It's about three hours and 10 minutes to Fredericksburg, Texas. Our last Texas episode, episode 652. One of my favorites. Madness. Murder and multiple personalities. That's where the guy took all the furniture out of the house and buried it in the front yard in the exact arrangement that he had it in the living room, which is insanity. That's one of the craziest things I've ever heard in my life. This is in McClellan County, area code 254. This is a small place. I mean, it is not a big place. When you do like the statistics and stuff, you got to do it by the zip code. Like the town itself doesn't even have its own stats. Wow. So it's just the zip code, which means kind of the encompassing rural areas and kind of suburban Waco too. It was established in the early 1880s as a rail stop here between Corsicana and Waco. This is, you know, when the railroad was expanding in the 1880s. This was, you know, the big time they were doing now. Oh my God, I just had, because you said Corsicana, I just remembered the Corsican brothers, and now I'm watching that movie tonight. What a great movie that is. Yeah, that's Cheech and Chunk. Cheech and Chunk stabbing each other and the other one feels it. That's amazing. Good shit. No, that's good shit. They got a post office in 1882. It was named in honor of a railroad officer. So again, very exciting. That's where Axtell came from. They opened up a state, the Axtell State Bank in 1912. And that was good for the local businesses because then you could get some loans and stuff like that. Apparently, Axtell reached a peak of population in the town proper of about 400 in 1914. So it's been a while. Wow. That was their peak. That was their peak. Then that year, there was severe storms and floods in the fall of that year that damaged and destroyed crops and property and made it impossible to make loan payments. So then nobody repaid their loans to the point where rather than the bank being able to just foreclose on stuff, the bank had to close. Wow. Because nobody was returning shit. So that was that. You just wait out the bank. That's what you had to do because otherwise, if they took the property, no one else was going to buy it. It was all flooded and screwed up. So it's best known for being the site of Mount Carmel Center. Oh. Yes, which is the site of the 1993 Waco siege. David Koresh. Koresh, yeah. Branch Davidians, all that shit. That didn't happen in Waco like you hear. It happened in Axtell. In Axtell, actually. But Waco is the closest place anyone's heard of, so that's why it's there. That was the, if you don't know, if you're very young, in 1993, this was a, it was a 51-day standoff between the FBI and basically the federal government and a group of, and a cult leader who raped children and took everybody's wives and a cult, an insane cult of lunatics that basically entrapped these poor children to die in a building. Entrapped a whole bunch of people. Yeah. And then the government's response to it, you could, we could do 10 episodes debating Waco and it was crazy. There's a lot of mistakes. There's a lot of crazy on both sides of that that went nuts. So either way, this was a 51-day standoff that resulted in a giant fire with explosions and 86 people dead by the end of it. That was including federal agents. Including 20 to 28 children. Oh, sweet Jesus. And of course. 22, why is there a discrepancy? I don't know if that's discrepancy of who's considered a child or not. Okay, maybe 17, 19. That's what I'm, I don't know, but that's what, they say between 20 and 28. Wow. Okay. So that's what this is famous for, this area. What a town. Flooding in the Branch Davidians. Wow. It's a farming community otherwise, like agriculture. Reviews of this town. There's a few here. Here, it's hard because there's, you have to like really look for reviews of this town. Here's one person and there's no stars on these reviews. So we'll have to decide what they think. I've lived in Axtell for over 20 years. couldn't be happier. One star. Yeah. One star. It's a safe and friendly community where everyone knows each other. The cost of living is low and the schools are great for kids. Who else would they be good for? Yeah. The schools are great for grandpa. He really loves them. That's where, wow. Two, Axtell is a beautiful place to live, but job opportunities are limited. It's a great place to raise a family, but not ideal for young professionals looking for career growth. Yeah. So raise your family in a nice rural environment and then send your kids off to actually be able to work and get a job. So the government can't appear on you. Oh yeah. Or you can just, uh, just collect a bunch of them in a giant building. Uh, here is another one here. I moved to Axtell for the peaceful and quiet lifestyle and I haven't been disappointed. Yeah. You'll get a lot of quiet. That's one thing you're going to get here. Uh, the town has a lot of charm and the people are welcoming. However, there's a lack of entertainment options and you have to drive to nearby cities for more activities. Yeah. There's nothing here. Like it's coming out there now. And then finally, I love living in Axtell. It's a close knit community where everyone looks out for each other. The cost of living is affordable and the town has everything you'd need, which apparently doesn't include entertainment options or activities of any kind. You don't need that. You don't need that. You can get water and clothing and shelter, water, shelter. We got it. Um, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. So there's that. Um, yeah, it's weird when I looked like on niche for reviews, there's none of that. They only have reviews of their school district on niche. Wow. I guess it, it probably locally and, and even in the surrounding areas probably still has that shit hanging over it. I would, that's a kind of a big thing for a small town to shake. That's huge. That was front page news. The whole fucking country. If I say the word Amity or Amityville, what do you think of? Yeah. I think of a, a, a murder in a house and flies, you know, on the windows and you think of all that stuff. And Amityville is like a beautiful community. It's beautiful, but that's what they think of. So this is a hundred thousand times worse than Amityville. Amityville is just one fat shit killing his family. This is a, I'm blaming it on ghosts. Crystal Lake didn't even happen, James. It's not even a real place. They just filmed it in New Jersey. I read a book on the filming of that. They don't care. But people still talk about how any lake called Crystal Lake is not a good place to be. It didn't even happen. Never even happened. Never even happened. It's like the, the Rocky statue in Philly. Like this is not real, you know, didn't happen. Um, people in this town. Now this isn't in the town. This is in zip code seven, six, six, two, four. So yeah, big area. It's 2065. In the town. I think it's a couple hundred, few hundred. And that's going to be sparse and sporadically dotted, uh, homesteads. Exactly. And it's a lot of, uh, kind of big farms that are broken down. Like one of our families in our story, big giant long properties where the family has multiple houses where their whole family lives, like on a street, basically, uh, places like that. Uh, women, it's way more men than women in this town. 55.1% men. Cause it's a lot of agriculture. Agriculture work. Um, so not a good ratio for the fellows here. Um, median age, 45.3. It's a little older than the national average, which is about 38. Um, the other stats here, 62% married. This isn't a place to live a single swinging lifestyle. There's nothing to do here. Um, only 8.8% are single with children. So yeah, it seems like it's just so rural. If you're married, you just stay together. Cause where am I going to go? Where are you going? Uh, race of this town, 97.8% white, one point or 1% Hispanic. And then, um, 1% two or more races. I assume half white, half Hispanic would be my guess. Cause it's 0% anything else. Um, 62.8% of the, it's amazing that they haven't intermixed more there. You know, that's, it seems odd, right? Um, I mean, I, I gotta say, I wouldn't, I don't know. Uh, not very surprising, really. I, I, well, usually fucking breaks down all borders and, and it breaks down all walls between people. And, you know, if you look at like, so yeah, if you look at like the most, uh, interracial porn viewing, it's always wherever the clan is the strongest, you know what I mean? It's always that. So there's a, there's a, don't protest too much thing to it there, you know? And it's mostly when you say interracial porn, it's mostly a lot of big black guys banging one white girl. Yeah. Fucking some farm looking chick. Yeah. Um, religion here, 62.8% are religious. So way above the national average of 50, 50. And the highest one here is Baptist by a long shot. As we know, Baptists are the Catholics of the Southwestern desert regions, Southwestern desert planes. Uh, unemployment is about average here. Uh, median household income. You'd think it might be lower, but it's not a 67,972, about 2000 below the national average, not doing terrible at all here. Um, so, uh, cost of living here, uh, is 83, uh, out of a hundred. So a hundred is regular average here. It's 83 and the housing you would think, uh, you know, some big properties kind of make for a little more expensive, but the housing's an 89 out of a hundred median home cost, 132,900 bucks. And you've probably got several acres. That's the thing. And we're going to find out what you get here with the Axtell Texas real estate report. All right. The average two bedroom rental here goes for $940. I don't know if there are any average, any two bedroom rentals, but for what's lower than the national average by far about 300 bucks lower. Uh, here is house number one, not great one bedroom, one bath. So technically T-Ball for each and every B-hole, but for that one B-hole, just one B-hole 696 square feet. So, um, you know, like a size of a small one bedroom apartment, essentially built in 1946. It's not great, no frills. And there is one picture and it's from the outside. So that's a bad sign. 79,000 bucks for that though. Is there a studio home? Is that, does that exist out there? Probably what this is. That's what it seems like. Otherwise they're very small rooms. Uh, here is a four bedroom, two bath, 1,465 square feet. Um, not a big lot kind of wedged into a bunch of other smaller, uh, you know, lots here, but it's a nice house. It's brick nicely done on the inside. Nice wood floors, nothing wrong with it at all. Built in 1962, 175,000 bucks for that. Yeah, it's not so bad. Classic family house, 175,000. And then the next one, this is a great deal if you're looking to buy a house at this price, but four bedroom, three bath on a 2,703 square feet. Very nicely done on the inside. Very nice on the outside, right on a pond. It's got like a big pond in the back and it's, it's got like a boat dock thing or like a swimming thing to jump off of out there. It's pretty cool. 58 acres. What the fuck? 58 acres. And there's trees and shit. It's not just like the desert. It's trees. 899,000 bucks for that. That's not bad. The land alone is incredible. That's a lot of land. It's not bad. That's a pretty good price. They just had a $26,000 price cut on that bad boy. And it's dropping. It's dropping. It's dropping. Get in there. Uh, built in 2010. Uh, things to do here. The Mount Calm Spring Festival I found. This is, uh, nearby and it's like, you know, a two minute drive to the next town. To the next little town here. Uh, they have a softball tournament, a barbecue, uh, an arcade. They also have entertainment. Yeah. Yes, they do. They have, um, let's see, the Blue Sundown Band. Uh-oh. Um, the, uh, Chance Haas. H-A-S-S-E. Yeah. Anything? Haas. Anybody? Uh, Colton Hawkins, which you might as well just. What the fuck, man? That came out of an AI. A country name generator is what that did. You're Colton Hawkins. Sounds good. Get a guitar and start strumming. That's what that is. Start talking about beer and you'll sell some records. Uh, and then I think the headliner of the one night is Josh Ward. Don't know who that is. I don't know if you've ever heard of him. Uh, the next night we are going to have, uh, DJ Best. DJ D-Best. Sorry. Oh, he's D-Best. D-Best. Mary Beth Bird will be there. All right. And then. Maybe my favorite name of all time. DJ Cowboy Confucius. That's fucking, that's just good stuff right there. Yeah. You can't beat DJ Cowboy Confucius. That's fucking funny. He's playing Amarillo by morning over the Ying Yang Twins beat or some shit like that. That is, that's just too much, man. Holy shit. So yeah, there's going to be all this stuff and, um, that's what they got going on. There's also a holiday market. And then. Again, place I want to go. The Dr. Pepper Museum is there. Is it? They have a Dr. Was it invented around here? It's, it's Dublin now. I think is the place, but it's in Texas, and I have a glass bottle of Dr. Pepper, sugar Dr. Pepper, and that's what you get. Well, I figured, what the hell? These are hard to find, by the way. It's so good, though. The real sugar Dr. Pepper does not compare to – very little sodas compare to it. It's so good. It's so clean and good. Yeah. Well, you can do different things here. You can do make a soda, which is $20 per person. So $20 to make your own soda and then have a soda. Or just go to the store, man. Get a shot. Yeah. $5 per additional bottle purchased at the time of your experience if you want extra soda. For one bottle? For each bottle you make, by the way. So you can choose from one of seven signature Dr. Pepper flavors. You can do Dr. Pepper Diet, Dr. Pepper 7-Up, or Big Red as your base, and then add a variety of simple and artisan flavors to create your own unique soda. You also get a soda jerk hat. And a soda expert sticker. Yeah. Jerk is like short for jerk off, right? But not soda jerk, right? No. Soda jerk is somebody that made sodas in an old-timey soda shop. He would jerk the handles? That's where they came with jerk? Yeah. That's – exactly. Then there's also a paranormal experience. Yeah. I don't know what that – What's a ghost – I mean, I can think of 20 to 28 of them. Mm-hmm. No, they're going to have – They have – the museum is haunted, apparently. Oh, okay. So they go around, they give you flashlights and investigation tools and a glass bottle of Dr. Pepper that looks something like that. So you trap them in the bottle? And then there's the extreme pepper experience. Here we go. Which is all of the above. You get the guides, you get a bottle of soda, you get to make your own, you get a stupid hat, you get to find ghosts, and you do everything. That's $100 a person. $100 a person. Wow. That's wild. Go to Disney. What the fuck? That's crazy. Oh, my God. That said, crime rate in this town, what we're interested in here is about property crime, about one quarter under the national average. So that's good for property crime. And violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault right at the national average. Really? Yeah, but, I mean, that could be two guys beat the shit out of their wives in that small of a town made the crime rate shoot up, you know? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Two idiots got in a fight at a bar. Who knows? That's the ones. I guarantee it. That said, let's talk about some murder. What do you say? Here we go. All right. Let's go back to 1989, everybody. Yeah. Oh, baby. Where were you in 1989? I was nine. That's where I was. A child. Yeah. Sitting there, grooving to Milli Vanilli. I was watching the Ninja Turtles. Yeah. That's what you were doing. You were blaming it on the rain is what Jimmy was doing in 1989. Well, at this point, Axtell itself has 105 people. 105? 105. Wow. To describe what Axtell is, they say it sits on Farm Road 1330 between U.S. Highway 84 and State Highway 31, eight miles northeast of Bellmead in eastern McClellan County. Okay. That's what's going on. Now, let's talk about a woman here first. Let's talk about Karen Vicka. There's been so many different pronunciations of this. Vicka is what we landed on, I believe, because Visha is how it's said a lot of the times, so I had to figure it out. But in Texas, they made it Vicka. Give it a hard C. V-I-C-H-A. Karen Vicka. Born somewhere around 1949. We'll talk about that. But as of 1989, she has three daughters, two teenagers, a 16-year-old, a 14-year-old, and about a 10-year-old. She's 50. And she's in this time. Yeah, about 50. She's got Anne-Marie, Tracy, and Heather are her kids. She had been twice divorced. Yeah. And by 1989, she's got a new husband that we'll talk about. A new husband that's quickly getting old, as we'll talk about. And she lives by her parents. She lives in one of these places where the whole street is her family. All different houses. She lives in a trailer on this street of different houses. Apparently, they have a lot of yellow brick houses. This is what the family built. Really? Yeah. I don't know why. Like painted brick? Or they found yellow bricks? Not sure. No idea. Oh, like the road? I guess, but in a house form. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? I've never heard of it other than that movie. No. That's what I read, though. Yellow brick houses, which I was like, that's weird. I thought the same thing. I was like, that's strange. I mean, maybe you'd paint them so the sun wouldn't make it hotter. I don't know. Dark colored track feet. Maybe they're just yellow brick houses. Maybe. Not yellow brick, but yellow brick. There couldn't be anything less pertinent to the story. I get it. No, I'm on board. No, no. That's what we do. We'll veer off into that. I'm like, this does not matter. Corsican brothers, James. Yeah, that's what we do. I get distracted very easy. We do it all the time, my friend. Her parents live across the street. They are Robert and Zelda, as in the legend of. Her father is Robert. He's 64 years old at this point. He's retired. He's a retired plumber. Just retired a couple of years ago. Attaboy. He's tired of getting under your goddamn sink, and he's had it. He's been tired. Tomorrow, he'll be retired again, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow. I'll never stop being tired. This man has seen the shit of every person in town and hates it. Everybody. Hates it. And their hair, and a couple of their tampons, probably. Oh, for sure. And probably like a baby, I assume, at some point. Yeah. He's like, ah, fuck, I hate calls after prom night. God damn it. Zelda is 60, Karen's mom. She still works. She works for a foot doctor, I believe, in Waco. And they seem like a happy couple. They're doing their thing. They have not only Karen, but Karen's got a brother named Bobby, who is 39 years old. And he is at this in 1989. He is in a hospital. He's an 18-year veteran of the Waco Police Department. He's a sergeant in the Waco Police Department. He also lives in his own house just down the street as well. So they all live on the same deal. He's got a daughter and a son. His son's name is J.R., and he's 11 years old in 1989. We'll talk plenty about him, too. So now Karen is twice divorced and about to be or trying to be thrice divorced. Yeah. You say she's 50 and her mom's 60? I think. No, no, she's not 50. I apologize. I meant she's younger than that. Her date of birth, I've seen five different dates of birth for. OK, got it. So I'm trying to figure it out exactly when she's born. She is younger than this guy, but not by a ton. I think she might be, you know, 10 years younger than him. So Billy Wayne Coble is who she marries, who's the new guy she's trying to get a divorce from. Now, Billy is B-I-L-L-I-E, meaning. Oh, his name is not William. No, that's not. He's not going by Billy as a nickname. His name is Billy. Not a lot of Billy's like that. I'm not a lady. It's usually no. And most of them are exactly where you'd expect them to be. You betcha. It's like Jimmy's with an I.E. Yeah. So Billy Wayne and Coble is C-O-B-L-E, like noble with a C because he's not noble at all. And a lot of people call him Billy Wayne. Yeah. Old Billy Wayne there. Billy isn't enough. A name for him. He's born September 9th, 1948. Now, Billy had met Karen when she was in high school and he had been at the time. I believe he was like on leave from the Marines in Vietnam. Oh, so, you know what I mean? It's that kind of situation or right after that. I guess they talked a few times and then they never really kept any connection with each other. Sure. Then they met. They met again at a nightclub in 1987. And that started a relationship and they'll end up being married in 1988 as we'll talk about. We got to know about Billy Wayne's background because it's really quite the spectacle here. Okay. His father, never around. Gone. No. From the start. From jump. His mom has a lot of problems. Mental problems. Oh. A lot of issues. So, basically, for his first like four years of life. His mother was in and out of institutions and he was raised by an alcoholic stepfather who, you know, beat the shit out of him and all that kind of thing. And didn't work and they were really poor and real poor. You know, like rural Texas poor. Very poor. Rural poor. Dirt poor. Dirt poor. He's got a brother and a sister. Now, from the age of four on, his mother gets pretty much permanently institutionalized. Billy Wayne? Billy Wayne's mom? Billy Wayne's mom. Institutionalized at the Austin State Hospital with a psychoneurotic disorder. Oh, boy. She had a crazy fucking meltdown and they took her away and she never came back. So, he's now with the alcoholic stepdad. No. He gets sent to a state children's home. Perfect. In the early 50s. Yeah. Nice place. Beautiful place. I mean, those places suck now. Yeah. And we actually try. now, a little bit anyway, when there's funding. Anyway, but back then it was just like, I'll tell you that. Yeah. Back then it was, it was a different type of deal. So to be raised in a rural Texas children's home in the fifties is brutal. Yeah. So school for orphans, you're, you're basically unwanted. Now his brother and his older sister were packed off to the Corsicana state home for children. Oh, and they were, they were sent somewhere else and he stayed by himself. So they split up the kids in the family and sent them to different places. His sister eventually, wow. While at the state home for children was gotten trouble for quote, promiscuous acting out. So got in trouble for fucking guys and got sent to a convent. They forcefully made her a nun. You will be a nun now. They forced her into the nunnery because she was too friendly. Like she's an angel. What do you think is going to happen in the nunnery? Yeah, she's been raised in a children's home. She's probably been molested since forever, including my alcoholic stepdad. Send her off to the Catholic church. Send her off into the nunnery. Yeah, she won't. It'll be, that'll shut it all right down. All right, that'll fix it. That's what they used to force people into. His brother was placed under the Waco probation department because he was fucking up too. But Billy Wayne stayed at the home for 12 years from age four to age 16. 16, Jesus. He lives there. Now, he has some workups done on him when he's 15, and he's got some mental problems. Is that right? You might imagine here. The institution brought in a psychiatrist named Dr. Hodges, and Dr. Hodges described him as paranoid, distant, deliberately not smiling, as if he must deliberately keep people away from him to avoid the hurt from further rejection and hostility. Yeah. Interesting. That's a good diagnosis. That's like he's adapted. Seems A to B. Yeah. He's adapted to not being cared for by way of pushing everyone away so that they don't try to. He pushes everyone away because no one's ever cared for him. Right. Whenever he thinks someone's going to be nice to him or when you're a kid, you're looking for someone to be the mother figure or father figure, and they're not. Then after a while, you go, well, fuck all these people then. I'm not going to be friendly. They're not going to be nice to me, so I'm not even going to pretend like we're going to fucking get on. Right. So. It makes perfect sense here. Yeah. It's bad. He also said he was extremely hostile to women. Oh, that's interesting. Which he hates his mom. Made very deprecating remarks about them and seemed to have a very low opinion of women. These are all quotes from the doctor's report, which is not good. No. The final assessment basically is, quote, this boy represents a sociopathic personality disturbance of the dissocial type. Noted that he and people like him gratify their own desires without regard for the cost of others. And then he said, the long-term prognosis does not look good. Doomed. Doomed to a life of fuckery from the start. As a boy. This boy does not look good for the future. Does not look good. And they don't go, okay, so let's get him into some serious therapy. Yeah. Especially get him a woman therapist. A woman therapist that he can trust and build. They just go, yeah, he's fine. And you know what they do? They encourage him to join the Marine Corps, which is what he does. Oh. I mean, that's fine. You want to join the Marine Corps, but what else can he do? Like, he just has nowhere to go. Also, back then, very few women in there. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Very few women. And that's a good place. And plus, if he's aggressive and he's angry and all that, go in the Marines. I mean. We got a war to fight. Back then, too, they would go, maybe that'll, like, we could shape. We could shape that into something useful, basically. Mold him into following rules and order. Yep. So, he joined at age 17, which would be about late 1965. Guess what's going on around that time. Cool. So, he is sent to Vietnam. Yeah. As a. Big CCR fan. Big. Yeah. His fortunate son is a constant loop. Fuck. He can't stop. Here's that. And he just hears choppers start going. And that's the thing. He was a machine gunner in combat, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's a. Wow. Yeah. He later told someone who interviewed him that the killing always stayed with him from Vietnam. Yeah. He said he could still feel the first, see the first person he killed in Vietnam just as vividly as the day it happened. Oh, geez. He said that 30 years later. He serves four years in the Marines altogether. We'll talk about how he ended up getting out and everything. But while still in Vietnam, he retired. He returned home from Da Nang to meet a woman or to go back to it. He had a fiance at the time. Sure. Don't know who she was, but basically he came home. I don't know if it was a surprise visit. I feel like if you're coming home from Vietnam, there's been a there's been a notice and people know when you're coming, right? Yeah. Oh, he's getting here today. And, you know, he's at the air like you imagine that somehow his fiance missed the note or missed the telegram or missed whatever. Because when he came home, he found her in her apartment in the middle of fucking a guy who clearly wasn't him. Oh, my God. Now, imagine being that guy. Yeah. Imagine if you didn't know any of this. You're just, hey, I got lucky with some chick. And then her machine gunner fucking boy fiance comes in on leave from Da Nang to fucking kick the door open. Oh, my God. You're going to get a Forrest Gump ass kick. Wow. That's my Jenna. This is bad stuff. Jesus. He threatened to kill both of them, became enraged, which seems like A to B, I would say, for this guy. I mean, I've never been to war. I think I might say those words. Yeah. And I'm not just coming home from where they're like, just kill as many people as you can. It's weird. Just unload it and then reload it. Unload it again. Do that all day. It's super strange to send someone like, are you going to go on like a break from combat quick and go home and be normal and then come back and kill again? Like, we really don't have any idea how the human brain works, but you can't turn it on and shut it off like that. I don't know how we expect football players to not be crazy when they get off the field. Never mind people who've been told to literally murder as many people as you can. The hyperbole in the locker room is enough. Yeah. This is actual. Legit. Yeah. Bring me back ears as a token. Take them apart. Yeah. Wow. So he ends up getting in a fight with the guy after that. There's a big fracas and, you know, melee after he threatens to kill them. During this fight, he had a knife at some point. Oh, and we know that because he accidentally stabbed himself in the right leg with it in the right thigh. So he ends up hurting himself. He got tangled up so much. He hit the wrong leg. But his story was that it wasn't an accident. He said he deliberately tried to stab himself in the abdomen and missed, which is a pretty big miss. Yeah. I don't know how you'd miss stabbing yourself in the abdomen and get your thigh. That's wow. Now, the there's a military medical report from this incident that noted that he revealed evidence of a lifelong maladjustment from this thing. We're saying he's a fucking maniac and a bit of a crazy person. And that's from the Marines. By the way, it's like they want you to. Yeah. Their whole thing is kill, kill, kill. And they're like, hey, this guy's a little fucked up in the head. So you got to be super fucked up. Yeah. Full metal jacket. What did they have on the helmet? Did it say license to kill? Born to kill. Born to kill. Yeah. That's it. They don't even have there's no they don't even have like medical staff like they have it on a base or whatever, but they don't have like their own doctors. The Navy doctors do the Marines because the Marines teach people to kill. And that's all. Yeah, that's it. So. And that's fine. It's it's a military. That's what they need to do. But I'm saying it's weird when they say, hey, he's a little off. He's a bit much. Yeah. He's a little too violent for us is you got to be really fucked up. Yeah. On the hospital ward, he was described as hostile and belligerent before slowly beginning to conform to the ward environment. After a while, he received an honorable discharge, but was explicitly not recommended for reenlistment due to a series. Of violations and convictions during his time in service is what was on. You don't got to go home, but you can't stay here. Yeah, we're going to give you honorable. That's nice. But we're done with you at this point. Yeah, you know, that's yeah, that's like somebody breaking up with you because they're moving and they're very sorry, but they have to go. This is basically what they're saying. But, you know, it's not you. It's us. I just have to. I have to. My job. There's no choice. So he does that when he comes back from Vietnam. He is. He was diagnosed with PTSD called something different at the time, I'm sure, and bipolar disorder as well. So picked up a little bit of that. Yeah. He was hospitalized when he returned due to trauma he experienced during the war. And his sister said that he was never the same after he came back from Vietnam. He was a different guy. I can't imagine. As probably tens of thousands of people. I'll bet that number. Everybody said that. Yeah. Yeah. That war, I'll bet that number's somewhere around. 80 something percent it's a lot of not the same yeah they were never the same and the others were people that didn't see combat no yeah that's true i mean the world war ii people were fucked up too yeah they just they just you could still smoke two packs a day and drink a bottle of whiskey every day and people just thought you were a man back then so it was fine you could cover it up plus those people grew up in the depression yeah so them a lot of those guys going to war was like oh shit this is the first time i have nice clothes and i got steady meals every day right so they were it was a little less whereas if you were coming from this era in the mid-60s in america a little bit of a softer time for kids to come up and then go to vietnam i don't think they were ready for that shit that was there's also a side horrible when they came back from world war ii they came back as victors whereas the other side they just kind of no they came back they didn't even know what the hell they were doing over there right there was no there was no plan there was no objective let's go ahead and you beat hitler there's no cartoon of bugs bunny kicking hitler in the dick like we didn't have any of that from vietnam it was just this kind of nebulous weird yeah thing so i'll bet you there's not a lot of people that can name the bad guy of vietnam well i i mean yeah i think that's a matter of opinion probably yeah probably yeah you know that's the problem with war is that there's supposed to be a decidedly bad guy that we're fighting against it was before that we always had that before i mean world war ii we had that world war ii seemed pretty clear cut yeah you know but then when it gets a little more then it gets foggy left out in the ether that's crazy so 1970 he is he's going to meet his future bride here one of them this is pam woolly w-o-o-l-l-e-y woolly she'll later be pam gumbert oh it's a terrible name um poor pan both of them yeah uh he's 22 at this point and um you know you pam he meets her and he they get married pretty quickly he adopts her young daughter charlene after they get married 1970 trying to make a family um they're also going to have two children wow including a son named gordon who goes by gw which i assume is gordon wayne and um not liddy not let's yeah exactly so gordon uh we'll talk about plenty that's why i'm making a he's gonna have a lot to say later so now pam said to bill i was perfect i'm not perfect and i can't be perfect and it was just strange the way he thought about me that's what she said later okay so by 1974 he doesn't apparently think she's so goddamn perfect anymore because he becomes a violent monster by 1974 four years later within four years um he would beat her mercilessly all the time oh boy he liked to beat her on the head so her hair would cover the you know marks and wounds that would be actual wounds oh yeah no he's beating her he's punching her in the head and stuff like that he's a fucking monster um a girl a girlfriend introduced pam to billy wayne as by the way so thanks a lot asshole how do you feel if you introduce somebody to somebody who then beats the shit out of him you have to feel horrible right the guilt would be crazy yeah i'd feel awful but she said the woman who introduced them said he was she was struck by his good-natured personality seemed like such a gregarious guy um he did have trouble at his job at the central texas ironworks he's a welder by the way and um i think electrician later on too and uh they have a lot of bills and things like that and he's starting to get abusive and violent and he's he's not a drinker doesn't drink doesn't smoke which to me that shows if you can be crazy and violent and you're not even drunk thank god you don't drink that's what i mean you're not even drunk imagine doing imagine doing anything like that sober oh i can't you're drunk even i'm a happy drunk so i can't picture a drunk but imagine sober yeah like that's wild man um nothing even clouding the reason for your frustration and your leap to violence it's just that's who you are that's just who you are that's what comes out naturally with no adjustment of anything um maybe he needed a drink oh he should that would have mollified i'm terrified to try it you know maybe that would offer it maybe he would have been one of those guys who has like three drinks and falls asleep on the couch you know maybe that would have just calmed him right down well some guys they're calm people you give them booze and they get crazy maybe it works the opposite maybe it's like uh riddling you know if you're real hyper it'll make you calm if you're real calm it'll make you hyper at least for a little while until he builds a a tolerance it's certainly going to be it's going to be a sedative it'll put him to sleep for a minute i'd probably try anyway so he would knock her to the floor with open hand slaps um at one point uh he well he hit her with a baseball bat a couple of times hard enough to send her to the hospital he hit her in the back um one point he sat on her chest and repeatedly punched her in the face and broke her nose he's a hard this is horrible um she said that he once beat her so bad that she had black eyes for six weeks oh my god you know how deep that has to be to last for six weeks anybody ever had a black eye it goes away in a week and not just how deep but how much bleeding because that's what a black eye is it's bleeding and it's so much collection in there it shows through the face for six weeks uh six weeks the man hasn't been able to digest a um one time she cooked something that he didn't particularly care for so he threw the plate at her and hit her with it um when she then threw something back at him so now we got a food fight in the kitchen which sounds like fun but in this situation it's really not because he's a terrifying monster yeah she threw something back at him so he got up and hit her with a sledgehammer uh why is that in the kitchen i don't think it was i think he went to the garage and got the sledgehammer came back came back in and blasted her with it hit her with the sledgehammer luckily not in the head um she described him as capable of going quote from normal to extremely angry in a split second yeah and that he always blamed her for his violent acts which all these abusers do that why'd you make me do that that's what they say why'd you make me do that rather than why can't i control myself why did i make it why did i make that decision why did i make that horrible fucking decision which is the question you should be asking so that's what's going on here but from normal to extremely angry boom like that and this is like i said no booze no drugs that's crazy nothing like get this man some weed he needs it god damn if you do that bad seek help fast that's so fucking crazy the court should order him to number one never go near her again and number two like should mandate like 10 bong loads a day for this guy he needs to bring it all down a little bit i think he also needs a a collar with a geofence around it that just goes house to work house to work that's maybe good like a dog like an electric fence yeah that'd be good i think you're not allowed to leave so he then told her that if she ever filed for divorce he would quote fix her so no man would ever look at her again okay so that would be scarring or uh yeah i will maul you so you'll be i'll disfigure you disfigure you um she did file for divorce in 1975 oh boy she said for the safety of my children and myself but then he got all sweet all of a sudden i'm so sorry you come back everything's gonna be different please forgive me i made all the mistakes and i didn't know and my family and my daddy was never around and i don't know how i'm supposed to act and blah blah blah blah blah and she said okay and took him back this is horrifying so what what's her dad like you know what i mean yeah she's seen yeah no nobody who didn't come up in this would put up with this yeah and the daughter that he adopted usually uh what's that what's that girl's father like yeah because he's not around to be exact she's available to be adopted she he has given up parental rights completely so that's what i mean so this she's not picking winners so what happened there so then and then it goes downhill now this poor girl the daughter this is the house she grows up in so fuck it's horrible so um now there is i guess we'll call this section the quote good which is hard to even say especially because what i wait till i tell you after this he uh served as a section leader in the u.s army reserves and um he was well respected by the commanding officers and troops and did a great job there everybody said he was he was great uh he also uh did he was a member of the waco jc's which john wayne gacy was a member of the jc's was a youthly lack of credibility yeah was a youth those should be dissolved yeah youth football coach which again i don't trust that at all um and he once owned a welding shop and was included in a book titled quote outstanding young men of america i'd love to get a copy of that book who else is in there young jeffrey dahmer he's a star There's this young man trying to get into law school in Utah we really think you're going to take a shine to. He's got a magnetic personality. The young women really like him. He drives a champagne-colored VW. He's excellent. Wait till you hear about Kansas' ADT Salesman of the Year. Oh, my God. Wait till you hear about the Community Officer of the Year there in Kansas. Holy shit. That's right. What a guy. This is crazy. Now, the bad. Now, I've given you bad. He's a monster. Beats his fucking wife mercilessly. A horrible, horrible, horrible piece of shit monster. I've given you the good. He's an outstanding young man in America. He teaches kids football and does well in the Army Reserves. Now, here is the ugly, the worse than bad. This is the ugly. This is his true. Scumbagness comes out here. Okay. He molested Pam's younger sister. Not the daughter. Younger sister. And punched her in the mouth. He then molested the kid's 13-year-old babysitter. Yeah. And this was while he, under the ruse of taking her to teach her how to water ski, he took her and molested her. A 13-year-old. Yeah. He also groped and molested her. He also molested another neighborhood girl. Okay. So, what the fuck? In 1979, he was 30 years old. Yep. He raped his own cousin who was 15 years old at the time. So, you can put that in a fucking, in a bubble. I mean, he's got severe. That's rape, incest, child molestation. It's all in one. He's got severe psychological damage that started probably, probably around 10 years old. Shit, four years old. Right. There's obviously that. But in that, between four and 10, perhaps they coddled him a little bit. But somewhere in between that eight to 14-year-old window, there is horrible abuse that happened to him. Absolutely. Because he's targeting children of that age. So, that's where he sees himself. But he's also targeting girls. Yes. So, that's. That's usually not how that goes. Well. You know what I mean? Most of the time. Yeah. It does happen. But I mean, a lot of the times, the molested guys molest boys. They don't molest girls. Certainly. But perhaps it wasn't. Perhaps it wasn't a boy that molested him. Yeah. Not all the time. And we don't know. But he hates women, which is another thing. Yeah. So, he hates his mother. There's some psychological obvious take there. Unless we. Hot take. Unless we could figure out what the hell happened to him. At the state house he was raised in. Something happened. We have no idea. I mean, we know what happened from zero to four. And that's enough. That's enough, honestly. What happened just in the womb was probably enough. Probably. Think about it. If his mom's nuts and she's around this crazy alcoholic asshole and all this shit. God knows what was going on. So. Can't be good. We don't know. So, that's easy. He rapes his 15-year-old cousin. Then, there was an incident with his niece. His 15-year-old niece, by the way. She's sitting in a chair wearing a nightgown. This is horrifying. He grabbed her ankles and spread her legs apart and made a gesture with his tongue as if he was going to perform oral sex on her. That is in front of people? Apparently so. It's documented. How the fuck? I mean, she told me no. Later that same day, he forcibly kissed her. So, now he's done two different things. When he was done forcibly kissing her. He threw a $5 bill at her and said, have that. Oh, boy. So, remember the $5 bill, by the way. Okay. Okay. Throws a $5 bill at her. Was like, there you go. She told on him anyway. Good. Yeah. Now, Pam. Back to Pam, his first wife. She said that in 1979, she can vividly remember him being enraged, sitting on her chest and beating her silly with his fist after she told him that she wouldn't change his mind. He threatened to kill her entire family and said he would keep their son, Jordan, and disappear if she divorced him. Okay. Okay. Which is crazy. That's what's going on here. She sought medical treatment twice during their marriage. Once after he threw a baseball at her. A baseball. Hit her in the back, causing her lung to swell. Oh, God damn it. Guys get hit in the back. Hit in the back with 98 mile an hour fastballs and take their base. So he drilled her from close. That's not from 60 feet. They trot and stare, but her lung is damaged. This isn't from 60 feet. He probably did it from five feet away. This is crazy. So they divorce in 1980. Pam gets away from this fucking monster. Thank God for her and her daughter. She just got her daughter out of it. Gordon stayed behind? Yeah. Well, Gordon goes with her, I believe, but Gordon stays very close to his dad. As we'll find out all the way for the next 40 years, Gordon's close to his dad. So then he meets another young lady. He's 35. She's 18. He's got it tight. Too naive to know that he's a shithead is the tight. That's what it is. And from a background of tumultuous beginnings in that lens to being attracted to that. Yep. So this was in 1981. She was working at a takeout chicken restaurant. In Robinson, Texas. And yeah, Billy Wayne's welding shop was nearby. Oh, if that's not a match made in heaven, he comes in, you know, pulls his fucking mask welding bibs on welding bibs, burns on his arm, pulls his mask up. She comes out in her little chicken smock and it's love at first sight. I picture her with a hat, a paper hat shaped like a chicken. That's what I picture for some reason. Well, the welder was a real stupid hat to underneath that home. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A real tight cotton thing. But I picture him wearing the helmet pulled up over there. How you doing there, darling? Just trying to show that he's employed, you know? Some of those welding cats are hilarious because they have a bill on them for some reason. Yeah, what is that? What are you? I don't want the sun to get in my eyes. Even though I can stare at an eclipse and it'd be fine. But the sun, it gets in your eyes. I've got to get a little bill on that thing. That's the dumbest thing. I think it's just so you can adjust it and feel like you're adjusting something. I really feel like. That's what it is. Guys just want to be able to grab and adjust a hat. What a wild fucking. It's a weird profession in the first place, but the safety equipment is insane. It's crazy. It's crazy. So his welding shop is there, and he would stop by at the restaurant to not only get some takeout chicken, but also to talk to her. You know, the young teenager that works at the goddamn chicken shack. Oh, boy. So this is Candy Ryan, her name is, and she's very impressionable. Her father, surprising. Amazingly disapproved of their relationship. Is that right? Crazy, right? I don't want my daughter to go out with this 35-year-old asshole, twice her age, divorced, fucking police record, marine lunatic. I don't want all this shit. Bipolar. Vietnam vet with PTSD. Divorced father. Twice her age, by the way. So he threatened the father as well. Oh. He threatened the father. I don't understand. This is Texas. I don't get how the father didn't shoot him. I mean, I think that's legal there. Well, it's probably legal to threaten your daughter's boyfriend. That's probably legal, I'd imagine. Right. And if he fires back at you, I think it's legal to shoot him there, probably. On your own property. Yeah, if it's on your own property. If you invite him into the front lawn, he was dumb enough to come. I feel like that's part of the law, or at least was. That's castle doctrine, if I've ever heard it. Yeah. Because I'll tell you what. If that's my daughter. Yeah. And I say, stay away from my daughter, and you threaten me. Oh, I'm coming for you. I'm going to kill you. And that's, I'm not even, you know, I'm good. It's happening. You're going down. Yeah, that's not hyperbole. Yeah, that's it. And the dad was right, not surprisingly, after about a year of the relationship being all nice and everything. Then he started regularly beating the shit out of Candy as well. They're dating anyway, regardless. These guys do not change their stripes. No. By the way, whatsoever. Um, he regularly hit her, regularly hit her in the head. He would grab her by the hair and repeatedly slammed her head against the cabinets on the floor. Oh, boy. This is, these guys don't change. Um, he threw a small sledgehammer at her. He's got a real thing for sledgehammers. Yeah, what is that? I don't know. Um, then after she tried to leave him, he would stalk her. He stalked her during the marriage and after she tried to leave. Um, he would sit in his car outside the gas station where she worked, and then, he would come in to intimidate customers who he felt said more than the, you know, thank you, have a good night to her. Anybody talk to her for more than a couple of seconds, he was in there yelling at them and intimidating them. He just burst through the doors. Get away from my wife, which is crazy. Um, he would call her, uh, late at night to tell her where she'd been. So you did this, this, and that tonight. And you were with, you were with Connie and you were with Bill and you were with this one. with fucking all these people, and then even Say, ah, I like that green shirt you wore tonight, though. You look pretty in that. In other words, I'm stalking you. You can't get away from me. But he's not using the information to do anything other than terrorize her. He's letting her know that he's doing it. Psychological warfare. He's not breaking up her evening. He's calling her after he knows she's home and saying, I saw everything you did tonight. I know what you did. Yep. This is the equivalent of someone calling and being like, I'm watching you in your house. Yeah. In the event that you want to do something that I wouldn't approve of, understand that I've already seen it. I've seen it. You can't hide from me. Her father tried to help her leave. He then threatened her father again. Now, this is twice. That's two. What do you do in that moment? Is that a challenge? I think you kill this man. And you call the cops and you go, you guys have been beating the shit out of my daughter and won't let her leave. And then you threaten me. Challenge me twice. Challenge me twice. What are the laws here anyway? You know, Candy described him as a, quote, switch type personality changing from sweet to nasty in a split second. She said, that's what everybody keeps saying about him. No, there's no ramp up. There's no. She doesn't do that. He goes from that to fuck you. I'm beating you. No warning. No nothing. You never know when it's coming. She said, Candy, that he would beat her regularly. When she did something that he didn't like. Once she came home late from a meeting at work, he suspected she was having an affair. So that's one of the times he knocked her down and then repeatedly slammed her head against the kitchen cabinets and the kitchen floor. And that's, you know, 80s linoleum we're talking about. If you believe that, then leave. Yeah, I would say please leave. But I don't know. I think she's I mean, he even threatened her dad. I think she's scared. You might be right. She's got to be scared. If he does all that and he threatens the one guy in your life that is your protector. Yeah. Outside of him, then what choice do you have? I think you're terrified. I really think he's terrified, this poor woman. And she's scared that if she leaves, it's going to be worse. You know, that's what happens. That's scary. She finally, finally, finally got out of there. She grabbed her last paycheck and she had been giving her father a little money every week to hold. Okay. For her as an escape fund. This is like Omar giving Butchie his bank, basically. And this is what happened. She got her last paycheck and the money she had her father gather up and she fucking took off, basically. Okay. She ran away. When he found out, Billy Wayne told her father that he better watch his back because I know you helped her. That's three times. Yeah. That's three. I don't. I mean, if we're giving leeway at all. Come on. I gave him three chances. There's not a jury in the land. Three chances. He's, yeah, beating my fucking daughter and threatening me. Sorry, but I think anybody would go, how do you not fucking murder this guy? Like, how do you not? At least lash. Any, any. At least I say a pistol whipping at the least, right? Some sort of violent. To tell him, you think you're not fucking around. Exactly. I'm not fucking around. I'm a hundred percent not. He put an extra shotgun in his hand. In his truck rack that he has in his cab there. Now, during their separation, she said that he would call her frequently and beg her to come back, though. Billy Wayne. On several occasions, she said he called and threatened to kill her and her small dog because. And your dog, too. And your little dog, too, because she left and the dog is still there. Yeah. So he's got the dog. Okay. So she said, he says, I will kill your dog. I'll hurt your dog. Since I have your dog here. She said to drive home his point, he would hurt the dog in some way to make it Yelp on the phone. Oh, you pinch it or does do something to this poor little fucking dog to make it Yelp. They were finally divorced in December of 1987. So for over six years, she put up with this fucking guy. Okay. Now, at this time, he's doing some electric electrician type work. I assume he's not like licensed and bonded and all that. He's not in the union. Probably. Probably not. No. He also works at a drive in movie theater doing maintenance. That seems like more his speed. So it's at this time that he meets Karen. We talked about Karen Vicka, who we talked about before. Now, Karen will be his third wife. Like I said, she brings three daughters to this. At the time, a 15 year old, a 13 year old and a nine year old. You want to put them in his wheelhouse. But she doesn't know about any of this. She has no way of knowing this stuff, though. She has no way of knowing this. He's never been arrested for child molestation or domestic violence. So she has. She couldn't even get a, you know, look it up and find out even back then. Yeah. Not only has it not been he's not been arrested, it's just not even been documented. It's not been. There's no. I mean, it hasn't been documented. So she has no way of knowing any of this to her. He's a charming guy. Yeah. And like I said, she's twice divorced looking for somebody, you know, friendly and whatever. And anyway, yeah. Um, so she, uh, at this point she is 34, um, here. So that would make that. Yeah. So 34. Um, that's what she is. She met him when she was about 16, but now hasn't seen him in a long time. Okay. Meets him again around 34. Um, they apparently ran around in the same groups, even though he was a little bit older. And then they met at a Waco nightclub where Karen was out with a friend dancing. Nice. And he was there. Yeah. And she. She had no idea. Like I said, about any of this stuff. All she knew was he was a funny guy who seemed easy to be around and quote, and this is a gross quote, genuinely interested in her three daughters. I would say probably more than, you know, that's gross. It's such a, it's such a flattering thing to say about a guy that you're dating that like, he's genuinely interested. He cares about them. Cares. Right. Cares about the children. Genuine interest. God damn it. Yeah. How much has that been ruined? Oh, God. Yeah. That used to mean you were a good guy. Ignore your girlfriend's children. Don't even. No. Act like they don't exist. Tell them to get fucking lost all the time. That's much more appealing than the opposite. Listen, you have a father. And then ignore them. Get the fuck away from me. I'm trying to bang your mom. Yeah. You go, good, good. That's a good guy. That's a good guy. At least he's not trying to fuck those kids. Um, Karen said he could be different people. He could lie to you and make you believe it. That is so strange to think that I was so gullible. I feel pretty much taken in just as Pam and Candy were. That's what she says once things get going. Um, but they'd both been married twice. They were both looking for a stable family environment. They both have kids. So in July of 1988, they get married. Wow. It's happening. Karen works at a jewelry store and, uh, he is working at a, a local drive-in movie theater. And they're living in her trailer in Axtell on the road with her family. Same road. Oh, boy. Okay. Now, 1989 comes around and, well, I mean, we are like six months into this marriage. Yeah. Newlywed still. It's brand new. Things are already falling apart. Really? Yeah. It took him like three years in the first marriage to become a monster. It took him about a year the second marriage. And now he's got it down. Yeah. He's got it down like six months now. Yeah. So, um, she noticed. We're gonna streamline. We're gonna streamline the abuse. He really is. He's getting really streamlined with it, which, you know, after a while, you start to, start to figure things out and you start to figure out how to be more efficient, really. That's, that's just a guy that's good at what he does. Fucking psycho. Yeah, yeah. He's looking for efficiencies and he's looking on how to maximize them. What a piece of shit. God damn it. So, she noticed his personality switches, the way she called it, and she was worried by his, quote, interest in watching young girls. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, that's any interest in that whatsoever. It's dangerous. So, um, then at one point, Pam, first wife, ends up talking to Karen. Oh? Yeah. They end up chatting, um, on the phone. Now, I don't know if Pam called Karen or Karen called Pam, but either way. Perhaps she called to talk to Gordon? That's possible, but however it happened, they got on the phone and Karen found out that, uh, basically that Billy Wayne had fondled two teenage girls. Two teenage girls who lived near him about 15 years ago when she was still married to him. Two neighborhood girls. She snitched at him, yeah. So, he denied the allegations, but still, she was, he, she confronted him. Karen went and said, did you fucking molest a couple of girls? And he said, no, no, what are you talking about? Um, so he denies it, but she was still like, okay, this is weird. Yeah. And she wants out. And the thing about it is, she comes from a healthy family. Right. She comes from a nice family. So, she hears one thing and says, fuck that, I'm out of here. Great. Do you know what I mean? She's not putting up with that shit. Uh, she doesn't take her 10 years. So, that's it. Um, she wants an uncle. She said, I don't want a divorce. Uncontested. We don't have kids together. We don't have assets or anything. You live in my trailer. Let's just call it. You take your stuff and get the fuck out of here. Yeah. Take your four garbage bags and go. Yeah, yeah. That's it. Take your fucking sledgehammers. But he did not want to do this, basically. Um, she wanted to, he wanted to try to get her car from her because that's what she wanted. she loved. She had a 68-month mustang oh not bad so pretty cool car and he wants it and he threatened because she is going to keep it he ends up threatening to destroy it said i'll wreck your car i'll take your car apart i'll fuck it all up um he started randomly calling her at work yeah he'd show up at her job unannounced and just act crazy um which is interesting um then pam karen called pam back yeah and said by the way you told me about the molesting and all that but when you were married to him did he treat you this way the stalking and the you know craziness and karen you know pam's like let me tell you 10 worse stories than that i got a lot of them yeah yeah um i'll show you some medical fucking history and you can see keep the baseballs away from him too yeah he's a real good with a bat and a sledgehammer and a ball and a ball too now august 20th 1989 so they've been technically married a year but it's over oh it's over they're estranged at this point okay um karen goes out to a bar with a girlfriend one night sure um she came uh out to the parking lot to go to her car to drive home normal gets in her car starts the car starts driving completely uneventful like any other like you can get out anywhere and drive home the mustang yeah then uh out of nowhere the back seat folds down oh no and from the trunk emerges billy wayne with a knife in his hand oh imagine how terrifying it is it's one o'clock in the morning you're driving on a dark rural texas road and all of a sudden your seat pops out and your crazy ex soon-to-be ex-husband pops out of the trunk with a knife that is so scary and she saw him come in there like before he grabbed her and you know what i mean the seat came down and he's right there hey he's talking shit and he's got a knife in his hand she probably screamed swerved i mean what the how terrifying would that be worse than bees being in your car right way worse than bees yeah way worse than fucking this is crazy he's gonna stab you yeah so anyway that means he was hiding in her trunk the whole fucking night he locked himself in her trunk forgot god knows how long how knows we have no idea um he fold so he popped out of the trunk with a knife jumped over the console halfway into the front seat so he's like kind of got his one foot in the front seat there and kind of half in the back seat and he puts the knife up against her ribs and told her to keep driving until they reached a field oh my god he then tells her to stop the car in the field and he told her quote if i can't have you then no one else can oh jesus that'll this is horrifying um he then pulls out a roll of black electrical tape okay now anybody with any radar for anything would know they're in a very bad spot right now she can't run because he's holding her he's got a knife on her but she could talking she can talk once she sees that electrical tape comes out she's like i better start talking real fucking fast yeah so she talks and talks and gets him to just talk for about two hours and wears him down she's like i don't know what to do i don't know what to do i don't know what to do i don't know what to do okay just to get out of the car yeah you tell him anything at this point oh yeah you're great yeah you run for president i'll be your campaign manager whatever the fuck you want to hear i don't care you're the best you're the best guitar player i've ever heard we're gonna make whatever he wants to hear yeah whatever he wants to hear you tell him at that point um so he let her go yeah he let her go let her take her car and he let her go he let her go and he got out or he i assume she drove they drove to a mutually advantageous point or whatever but because at that point the way she's saying it is we're gonna work it all out we're gonna work it out i'll you know i'm gonna go home and think about it and i'm sorry i put you through all this and obviously i've made you crazy i feel bad right she played every card she could to be safe and good for her uh but she got home and immediately called her brother bobby who is a waco police sergeant 18 years 18 years yeah and bobby said fucking report the kid napping right you're doing you gotta report this tonight this is kidnapping at knife point this is crazy this is a big felony it's really fucking wild um so now the the complaint basically they send another cop to talk to her and this cop um you know he she explains the whole thing but she says that she would she said i don't know what to do she tells the cop i don't know i'm gonna wait to decide whether i want to file charges until after um you know whatever i she said that she would defer her decision about whether to file charges to the cop she said i don't know what to do here and the cops said well i'll go talk to him yeah the cops said well i'll go talk to him and find out uh anyway he's arrested for this kidnapping yeah uh he's released on bail okay um officer james head who made the arrest recalled something later on he said he looked in his patrol car rear view mirror you know from you can see the guy in the back seat and saw coble staring at him he said with a look that made the hair on the back of his head stand up he said gave me the heebie-jeebies or the heegie beegies as they're known on here on small town murder yeah the old heegie beegies the heegie beegies that's what oregon the oregon pig farmer case you can hear why that's the heegie beegies the employee said that a lady gave him she gave me the heegie beegies man so this is a cop who i mean everyone in the back seat is not happy to be there yeah i would assume a lot of them are giving you dirty looks yeah and he's like this look was different it was creepy um then at that after a you know a pause for effect billy wayne says quote they're gonna be sorry who's that i don't know they they're gonna be sorry who's that who's they the cops karen my ex-wife all of them who knows told yeah yeah so he said that this officer was so unnerved by it again guys talk shit in the back seat all the time but this struck something different he called bobby directly and warned him about billy wayne he said this guy i think he's gonna fuck with you guys i think he's gonna try to do something to you guys so you better watch out and bobby took it seriously too yeah he's not fucking around no and a cop he's seen this before yeah if you've been a cop for 18 years you've seen domestic violence it started off with you going there because someone slapped someone or pushed someone and then you go back five years later because someone killed someone you've done it as a cop so he knows this is bad so he gets karen a guard dog for her house okay a big a big german shepherd that's trained to bite people dang probably an ex-police dog yeah yeah so it's german those are frightening yeah those are scary dogs and it's supposed to basically be both an alarm system and a and a protector yeah sure um about five days later three days later he billy wayne calls karen and says oh i see you've got a dog now that's a big mean dog you've got there two days later she found the dog dead in the front yard oh my god we don't know what killed it but dead in the front yard so we don't know if he poisoned it there was no blood or anything so it wasn't like a stabbing or a murder we don't know if this threw him a piece of poisoned meat or something like that yeah killed the dog meatball yeah yeah killed the dog um allegedly oh yeah the dog is dead dog is dead so while he's out on bail killing dogs and such he's also doing some wacky shit that people are starting to get worried about he starts throwing away all of his prized possessions oh things medals things that he had things that are important to him just throw them just tossing them getting rid of the trash yep he started talking about vietnam all the time which everyone said he'd never talked about anything about combat before and all of a sudden now he's just talking about vietnam throwing out prized possessions or like this is weird and everybody starts yeah people start thinking he's suicidal yeah a huge percentage of the guys that were in vietnam do not talk about vietnam no most people it's not a thing that they know they don't want to talk about fun no that's kind of how you can tell if someone's actually been there in places like that or not if they want to talk about it probably they want to tell you stories they're either lying or they're psychotic as fuck one or the other or or they just weren't there at all no but his his family and people around him start like his older sister they start thinking that he's suicidal he's doing all sorts of weird shit yeah um on august 29th 1989 in the morning he threw his truck keys at his older sister and said if anything happens the truck is yours and then leaves yeah doesn't give any further explanation of what he's doing or where he's going all right then later that day at the old vicka family houses this is the whole line of houses i'm going to read this from a newspaper article here the houses are are engulfed by sprawling pastures old trees and country quiet that reflect the family's agricultural heritage it was in this area that czech farmer rudolph and he was probably visha back then uh settled with his family after arriving in 1913 this has been family land for a hundred years right um seeking a better life among his countrymen already settled in central texas his wife bore six of the couple's seven children in the area and their descendants cluster there still They said, all our lives, the Vicka family has lived here, a neighbor said. We thought it would be a better place to raise a family. Everybody helps everybody. Everybody is concerned about everybody. We're a close-knit family. So that's the street. This is a close family that's been close for 100 years. This asshole doesn't fit into this group. No, not at all. Not at all. These are decent people. So on this day, early afternoon now, okay, Bobby's girlfriend arrives. I think Bobby is divorced because he's got two kids. He's divorced. Bobby's girlfriend arrives at Karen's house, okay? Now, arrives at Karen's trailer because I think she's going to pick up Bobby's kids who a lot of times go there after school if Bobby's still at work. Or Bobby's kid, J.R., the 11-year-old. He'll go there after school to be with his cousins. Whatever, because why go home to an empty house if you're 11, you know? Or just be watched in general, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So they said that the trailer is set well back into a pasture. It's a tan, double-wide trailer home. What she does is she arrives, looks through the window, and sees a terrifying thing. She sees Karen in handcuffs, clearly freaking out. And in some sort of distress. Now, she doesn't know where Bobby is, her boyfriend. This is Karen, Bobby's girlfriend. So she gets in her car and drives to Bobby's house. She left. She left her in there because I think because what's she going to do? Go in there? What if something's going on? Now, you're a hostage, too. She doesn't know. Right. Now, I'm in trouble. Yeah. But still, she drives down the street to Bobby's house. Yeah. And she gets out and looks around. There's outside. At the house, there's blood everywhere. There's blood everywhere. There's plants and furniture upended. There's disarray. Oh, boy. So it's at this point she calls the sheriff's department and says, I just saw my boyfriend's sister in handcuffs. And I come down here. There's something going on here at the old compound. We've got to come out. Better come out and see. So the police arrive. They arrive at Bobby's house. It's a property cluster on a stretch of a road in Axtell. Mm-hmm. And they first arrive, actually, here at the parents' house. Okay. Okay. They arrive at the parents' house. At the parents' house, they find Robert, the dad, 64, inside the house, covered with blankets and towels on the floor. Yeah. He's been shot. It's in the kitchen of his house. Then Zelda apparently got home from work and was shot in the garage. Oh, shit. And she is shot. We'll talk about their injuries here. Then they go over and they find Bobby in his garage. He's also dead. So now you've killed a police sergeant. They're not going to be happy about this. You've killed three people, one the police sergeant and his parents. And his parents. That's what I mean. Yeah. Wow. Bobby was shot multiple times in the neck during a struggle. His service weapon was used against him. Oh, wow. Yes. A pathologist. A pathologist with the Southwestern Institute of Forensic Sciences said that all three victims probably lost consciousness or died within seconds of being struck by gunshots. Wow. And we'll talk about their wounds and all that in a second here, but I don't want to lose the narrative of what's going on. So then they go to Karen's house. And this day you find an even more horrifying scene at Karen's house. I can't imagine. Well, I mean, maybe not more horrifying, but different horrifying. Yeah. Okay. I mean, he's eliminating the people so that he can get to what, his plan really is. Yeah. And we know Karen was handcuffed, so she's been in contact. Yeah. And he's been shot in the neck, so he's going to exact revenge way harder on her. Yeah. No shit. Well, that's the thing. When they get to the house, you know who's not there? Karen. Uh-oh. She's gone. But you know who is there? Four children. Her three daughters and 11-year-old J.R., Bobby's son, they are all handcuffed. They are all handcuffed. They are handcuffed and tied to a bed with their mouth shit taped shut, but alive. Wow. They are alive, but literally handcuffed and fucking taped to beds. And Karen is gone. And Karen is gone. Gone. Oh, boy. Okay. So, they're obviously looking for Karen and this idiot, Billy Wayne. So, they end up, after dark, after a few hours, they end up finally locating him and her. Yeah. And they have a high-speed pursuit. Oh, boy. That ends up ending in a crash. He ends up, there's some shit on the side of the road, and he hits it and crashes and fucks the car up. They get in a nasty accident. The Mustang. Karen had to be, I'm not sure if it's the Mustang. Karen had to be cut out of the car with face lacerations and bleeding from several stab wounds inflicted by Billy Wayne as they drove. Oh, Jesus. She ends up surviving this, though. Wow. Somehow. Stab wounds, car accident, handcuffs, everything. She survives it. Now, at the hospital, Billy Wayne, he has no qualms about what he did. He's telling everybody what he did. Doesn't give a fuck. Which y'all do. Yeah. He literally was, he told, one of the cops said, the guy telling the nurses that he just killed three people while she was bandaging his hand. Oh, my God. Yeah. At one point, he said, have you ever seen somebody who just killed three people? He said it real proudly, they said, to a nurse treating him. So, then he tells them exactly what happened. And also, we know from Karen what happened. Yeah. And from the forensic evidence, and we can piece it all together, and here's what this fucking psychopath did. He's telling the nurses? No, he tells the cops later. He tells everybody. Anyone who'll ask. He doesn't care. Tell whoever. All right. Early afternoon. Karen's at work. Empty house. He arrived. Billy Wayne arrived at the house and went inside and waited for her. He's going to surprise her. But the children came home from school. Three daughters, 16, 14, and 10. They come home on the school bus, and there's also 11-year-old Bobby with him as well. Okay. Or JR, I mean, Bobby's son. Normally, he'd go to his own house, but his father's still at work, so he said, I'll come over and hang out with the cousins, basically. Now, JR describes it. He says, I can remember walking in, and Bill was in there, and so were my other cousins. I remember he took my lunchbox and set it on the table, which is a weird gesture. He had three sets of handcuffs ready, one for each of the daughters. That's, he was, he was, this is a plan. Yeah. He brought a set of handcuffs for each daughter. For each girl. And he brought it. And he brought an extra one for Karen. Now, there's four kids, but he can't use Karen's cuffs on the fourth kid, because he needs those for Karen, so that's when he gets some rope instead to tie up JR. This is the variable that he didn't plan on. Didn't plan on the 11-year-old being here. Yeah, a sixth grader throws a fucking wrench in the whole thing for him. JR said he took us into Anne Marie's bedroom and put us on one corner of the bed, put us each on one corner of the bed. I don't remember what he used on me. Maybe some rope. Maybe some rope or something. Uh-huh. Okay. Karen's oldest daughter heard him cut the telephone lines to the house. He taped their mouths closed. Uh-huh. Imagine if you're these kids. How terrified are you? This is the scariest thing ever. And you can't use your mouth. And this isn't even a stranger. This is a person you know is dangerous, because your fucking mother has told you how dangerous he is. Um, he then tells Karen's daughters, quote, And then he says, well, you guys better say goodbye to your mother. And then he left. And took her with him. No, left. Karen's not even there yet. She's still at work. He just said, better say goodbye to your mother, because she ain't going to be around anymore. And then he leaves. Okay. And the kids are left tied up, thinking that this man's going to go kill their mother now. Uh-huh. Okay. It couldn't be worse. So he leaves the house. Now, Bobby comes home. The police sergeant just gets off his shift, comes home to his ranch. He starts doing work around the property. Normal shit that he would do. Water this, pick up that, whatever. He didn't know that Billy Wayne was already handcuffing the children and doing all that at the house. So Billy Wayne catches Bobby out in the open outside. He's just out there. Yeah. Doing yard work. So he's got no way to go. Bobby saw what's happening. And he don't. He dove back toward his car, going for his service weapon in the car. Yeah. Because he sees Billy Wayne coming at him. He manages to get a shot off and wound Billy Wayne in the right hand. Uh-huh. But somehow, out of this, Billy Wayne gets. Now, Billy had his own gun, too. He had a.38. Right. So I think he's shooting, too. But somehow, he gets the service weapon away from Bobby. Okay. And somehow got him away and basically pressed. The gun. It's a.357, by the way. Yeah. It's a lot of weapon. Yeah. Presses the gun against Bobby's neck and fires multiple shots. Good Lord. With a.357, you're basically. So. There's no neck anymore. The prosecutor later said that he practically decapitated him when he shot him, just with his gun. He's shot in the side of the neck at close range and in the thigh and in the right knee and in the index finger as well. These are all Bobby's wounds. He's later found, though, inside his car in the garage. So Billy Wayne put him in the car and moved it into the garage. Jesus Christ. So that's why when the girlfriend came home, she saw a bunch of blood outside but couldn't find anything, so couldn't find him. Investigators believe that they struggled over the gun when Bobby was shot in the leg. They think that he scrambled back to the car to get his.357 that he carried while off duty and was hit by the fatal shot in his neck at that point. So then he goes back to the kid's house, back to Karen's house, back to four tied-up kids. So he's going to be on America's Most Wanted, but he's not trying to hide anything. He's telling them, I'm going to be on America's Most Wanted. Wait till you see what I'm doing. That means he's going to run. He's about to disappear. I'm not going to get caught is what that means. JR said later on, it's sociopathic is what you'd call it, narcissistic. That's a, Jesus, to put it mildly. Narcissistic. Narcissistic. He's in the middle of a murder spree, and he's like, I'm going to be famous. I'm going to get away with this. I'm going to get away with this, at least for a little while. So he left the children again. He went back just to talk shit to the kids. Literally just to say, I'm going to be on America's Most Wanted. What do y'all think of that? I'm about to get a TV credit, y'all. And then he left. Someone's about to get a job playing me in a reenactment, everybody. So then he crosses the street, and it's late afternoon, and that's where, Robert, Karen's dad, is home. He was inside his house when Billy Wayne just came through the door. Yeah. Guns blazing, shot him in his own kitchen. Oh, Jesus. Poor Robert. They found him later, like I said, covered in blankets and towels. They said that he was shot twice in the back of the head from a range of three to four feet or beyond, but maybe a little bit more, but not much. So pretty goddamn close. Sounds like he didn't know. He didn't know it was Billy Wayne when he. No. Yeah. Nope. This poor bastard. I mean, this is fucking crazy. Crazy. So then, early evening, Zelda returns home from work, the foot doctor. Yeah. She'd been at work all day, and she came home, pulled into her garage, where Billy Wayne was hiding and waiting for her. Oh, good Lord. She never knew what hit her. She never knew anything. She came home, she was walking, and they said that she was shot in the left side of the face, from a range of six inches to two feet. Oh, he was hiding in the shadows? He just probably popped up and said, hey, boom, and shot her. That's disturbing. Wow. Disturbing. So then he goes back to Karen's house to wait for Karen. It's a very rural area. They're the only ones on the street or the family, so no one's called the cops. No. There's no one about multiple.357 gunshot blasts throughout the neighborhood. Karen gets home from work. She walks in. And there's Billy Wayne waiting for her, coming out of one of the bedrooms with a gun. He said, quote, Karen, I've killed your mama and your daddy and your brother, and they're all dead, and no one's going to come help you now. Oh, boy. That is some disturbing shit. Yeah. Karen didn't believe him at first. Didn't believe him. Thought he was full of shit. I mean, he has lied a lot. He's lied a lot, and that's something that would scare her. Then he'd be like, I guess, you know, whatever. But he then showed her Bobby's service revolver on the kitchen table. That's your brother's gun. Then he pulled the curtains back so she could see her father's pickup truck parked behind the house. It's your dad's truck right there. Then he showed her $1,000 in cash that he'd taken from Zelda. So I have all your people's shit. Where would I get that if I didn't do that? He told Karen, by the way, and this, this is the craziest fucking thing ever. He said, you're lucky I didn't molest your daughters, too. That's what he said. You're lucky. You're lucky I didn't molest your daughters. You should be thanking me. I'm just a murderer. I mean, I'm a molester, too, but not here. Not with these kids. I didn't molest these kids. Today, I'm a lowly murderer. Yeah, and he wanted to, I'm sure, too. Believe me. She was really tempting me. Wow. And then he told her to say goodbye. Goodbye to her children. Okay. Okay. So she kissed them goodbye with her hands cuffed. This is around the time, must have been when the girlfriend came home and saw her through the window with hands cuffed. Wow. Then he starts, takes Karen and drives away. I think they're in his dad's pickup truck, if I'm not mistaken. He would later tell Karen, quote, about Bobby. He put up one hell of a fight. I chased him down the road one way and I chased him back and then I shot him and he was going for the gun in the car and he wouldn't die. So finally, I had to blow a hole in that big neck of his. Oh, boy. Yeah. That is crazy. And then she tells her about her mom, too. Yeah. She says, I really hated to do that to your mom. And then we know this isn't true because she never got in the house. But he said, but when she found out about your dad, she just went crazy. So I had to. But she never found out about the dad. He just snuck up on a senior citizen woman and shot her like a pussy. That's what he did. So then he takes Karen for a ride. She's cuffed and in the car. Oh, it's in her car, in the Mustang. All right. He said he was going to take her away, quote, for a few weeks to torture her. And then I'll kill you, but you're going to be tortured for weeks first. So he drove. Now, as they, as they drove, Karen is not taking this lightly. She's struggling. She's fighting. She managed to get one hand free from the cuff somehow. So she grabbed the steering wheel and made the car swerve into a ditch. She's trying to get somebody's attention is essentially what it is. She then grabbed one of his guns and pointed it at his stomach and pulled the trigger. But it was safety. Didn't, didn't fire. Nothing happened. So they ended up, he ended up fighting over the weapon. He grabs it and he pulls it several times and it still doesn't fire. The gun's fucked up somehow. He tried to kill her. He's going to kill her right there. So then he pistol whipped her until she was so bloody, she couldn't even see. Just pistol whipped her head. Then at that point, a woman drives past them screaming, what are you trying to do to that woman? Yeah. So he drove at, because this is on the, in the ditch on the side of the road. So someone probably pulled over to try to help them and was like, what are you doing to that woman? So he drove out of the ditch with her covered in blood in the passenger seat. He shouted at her for getting blood on his clothes. And he said, for that, I'm going to fucking kill you because you got blood on my fucking clothes. Pissed. Then he, I don't even know how to explain this. We've had a lot of weird people on our show before. This is small town murder. We've had some of the craziest fucks who've ever existed on this show. Yeah. We really, we've never really had this particular thing that's going to happen now. He starts simultaneously rubbing her crotch. Yeah. This is while he's driving, mind you. Rubbing her crotch and at the same time telling her because you pressed charges for kidnapping, you've quote, ruined my reputation. What is that? So I'm going to like, you know, sexually assault you while I tell you that you're a bitch. That you've ruined my reputation because, you know, I'm a scumbag and all. You've made everybody think I'm a piece of shit as I sexually assault you. As I clearly am. As I sexually assault you after I murdered your family and handcuffed your kids and said, you're lucky I didn't molest your daughters. You made me be the worst thing ever. Wow. You made me. You made me. What are you going to do? He said, I had no choice. He said, he then drove to a deserted field. This is in Bosque County. Okay. Or however you say that. And threatened to rape her in the field. I'm just going to rape you in this field. Okay. He told her that, yeah, he said, I'm going to keep you hostage for about two weeks and torture you. And then they're in the field and it's waiting for it to get dark, basically. So they can drive more, but they don't want to be on the road. He doesn't want to be on the road. He said, once it's, you know, while they're waiting, he said, look, I know I'm a dead man. I get that. He said, but you're going to have to, you're going to have to live with what I did to your family for the rest of your life. I'll be dead, but you'll have to live with this shit. So after dark, he left the field, creeps away. Unfortunately for him, a 68 Mustang kind of stands out. It's not, this is 89. It's not an 87 Honda Civic. It stands out. So a sheriff's patrol car spots the car, turns around and follows. So they're in pursuit, lights on and everything. It's at this point that Billy Wayne grabs his knife and he's like, began stabbing Karen just randomly. in the passenger seat, in the chin, in the forehead, in the nose. He's literally keeping his eye on the road, just stabbing her face while he's going. Oh, boy. Saying, I don't want to die in prison. I don't know how stabbing me is going to help right now. So you got a cop behind you. You should worry about him. He then floored it and intentionally, they feel like, rammed into a parked car. Thought it would kill her or whatever? Thought it would kill him. They thought it was an attempt to kill them both. Okay. But they both survived. After the crash, they're sitting there and, you know, there's steam and shit dripping and, you know, a post-car crash. He turned his head over to Karen and said, I guess now you'll get a new car. Oh, boy. And then the cops come and they get him. The one cop said, the chase didn't last very long. The guy sped up to 80, then intentionally ran into a truck that had pulled over to the side of the road. That's what he was trying to do. Suicide and another murder. That's what it is. Now, inside the car, they find two handguns here. They retrieve a.38 caliber revolver and a.357 caliber revolver in the car after the wreck. They found six spent.357 caliber shells and two spent.38 caliber shells in Billy Wayne's pocket after they pulled him out of the wreckage. They had to get the jaws of life to cut them out of here. It was crazy. They also found a wallet belonging to Robert, Karen's dad, and $916 in cash that was taken from Zelda. So they have that. Wow. So he's going to be released from the hospital after a while and transferred to jail, while Karen's going to remain in the hospital to undergo treatment for all of her cuts and wounds and stabs and everything else here. The driver of the truck that they hit. Wow. There was a person in that truck also remained in stable condition after the hospital, in the hospital as well. So, obviously, they arrest Billy Wayne. Yeah, you don't, you know, get away with this. Yeah. Yeah. I'll read this from the newspaper here. Quote, A battered-looking and wheelchair-bound Billy Wayne Coble, identified by family members as a non-smoking, non-drinking Vietnam veteran, perhaps with mental problems. Maybe. Perhaps. Yeah. Okay. Associated with the war. Appeared yesterday before a Waco judge who set bond at $500,000. So they're going to charge him with three murders. They're going to charge him with kidnapping. I mean, the charges are. He's in so much trouble. So much trouble. And even more trouble, as the McClellan County Chief Deputy, Don Weyenberg, said, I fully anticipate capital murder charges will be filed. It certainly justifies it and warrants it. You kill the cop in Texas. I don't give a shit about anything else in this country. Not only that, you killed a cop and his parents. Yeah. And then kidnapped his sister and tied up his son and nieces. This is like, this is above and beyond. You're going to die by fire ants here. Well, I mean, yeah. They do that just if you shot a cop who pulled you over. Right. And that's just one cop on the side of the road. The rest of it's crazy. Let's not go into his house and killing him with his own service weapon. That's an extra level of stink. So Karen remained at the hospital. Like I said, she's in stable condition. So it's not good. Her cousin, who was kind of speaking for the family at this point, said, he's a dangerous man and this was a cold-blooded act. We hope that there will be a very speedy trial and swift justice. And there's no doubt he told everyone he did it. He told everyone at the hospital he did it. He told that whole story came just as much from him as from anybody else. You're not getting a plea. You're not getting a plea bargain offer, right? I would hope not. For what? They have all the evidence. Right. That's my point. They've got a slam dunk here. Absolutely. The attorney said that despite the warning signs, he believes that Karen was unprepared for what happened. The guy said, I don't think she expected this. The potential may have been there, they said, but she just wanted to get out of the marriage. She thought the biggest risk to her was her car being taken from her. This guy, there's another guy here, says his advice to family, is when they feel they're in danger, is to get out, whether by going to a shelter or moving away from the threatening relative, but it's not always that practical. And one person said, I doubt in this situation they could have done any differently. She got away from him. She called the cops. Her brother is a goddamn police sergeant that lives next door with a gun. She has a dog and her family. I mean, she did every goddamn thing she could have done. You can't account for this kind of crazy shit. Someone who's willing to go down with the ship, you can't account for that. Right. She needs secrets. She needs service-level protection. She needs a bodyguard at all times. All times. And that's unfeasible. And then how do you pretend? Then her family's in trouble, too. Not feasible. Whatever it is. Yeah. Not feasible. So, in addition to that, the dad, Robert, his sister ends up dying as well after cancer surgery, like the next day after all this happens. Oh, God. So, this woman, yes. Something like, oh, no, it's the mother. That's right. This is the mother. The mother of who? Robert? I believe Robert. It's Robert's mother. Oh, my God. An old woman. Put it this way. Harry Pachachek, who's the 77-year-old woman's son. Okay, never mind. It's not Robert's mother. I think it's Robert's sister. Okay. Robert's sister, I guess this would be Robert's nephew, said, her death is fine. I have no problem. I have no problem with that. She went out like she wanted to. She's with the Lord. She's happy. But this other is totally senseless. She's an old lady who died of cancer. Like she wanted to. That's fine. Yeah. But she died probably surrounded by her family is probably what it is. And, you know, not in her garage with a slug in her cheek. 357 in her fucking neck. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Which is horrible. Yeah. That's the dead woman's brother was Robert. Okay. So. This would have been Karen's aunt that died here. They said in her living room of her house, just a few hundred yards from where the shootings occurred. That woman, Rosie Wood, 61, sat with her husband and tried to make some sense of the death. She said it's horrible. She's Angela's sister, the dead woman's sister. It's so senseless, all this happening. You read about things happening like that. You never really think it can happen to your family. So the investigators are building the case. Mm-hmm. They know he did it. But they're trying to figure out what's the motive here. Why? I mean, yeah. Why did he snap like this? You could chase that all you want, but. Yeah. They said, the prosecutor said, right now there's no motive. There's really no explanation that I know of. There are a lot of people involved as far as witnesses are concerned. It's just a slow process of putting it all together. And they were trying to build a, the motive you don't need. That's not one of the necessary elements you need to prove is motive in court. You don't have to have any motive, but it helps when you're telling the story. It's nice to, yeah, right. The jury's like a narrative. Yeah. They like a story. Whoever tells the better story wins, basically. And if your story doesn't include a why, people think that's a missing part and they tend to have less to it. But if he's told you everything he did, the why doesn't matter at that point. And a fun part is when he's told you all of that, you just tell that story about how he told you all that and then go, Yeah. If you want to know why, he's right there. He's right there. Tell him to get on the stand. Ask him. Yep. So, but yeah, it's more in a case where they're, you know, the person is denying the murder. It's a much bigger deal to have a motive, obviously, because you're trying to tell the story. But anyway, they said his long history of violence against women that never really resulted in any criminal charges except nine days earlier when he kidnapped his wife there. But yeah, the whole investigation, it comes out. The abuse of Pam, the abuse of Candy, the molestations, raping his cousin, the $5 bill incident with his niece. And this is all going to come out in court, too. Former wives, former neighbors. None of these people have spoken publicly or to law enforcement or anything. This is all coming out new here. So the prosecution, basically, their case is he did it. This is what he did this day. But this is 20 years he's been doing this for. This is just the culmination. This is his peak moment here. And Karen said, all of my life, we've been mother and daddy and brother and sister. This has been our family all my life. Now they're all gone and I got left behind and I am not the strong one. Bobby was always the strong one. She said up until a month ago, we still slept with every light on in the house and I would get up three or four times in the night to make sure the doors were locked. Until recently, we would still check all the closets when we come home. That's how scared they were of Billy. Wow. They were scared of him. Terrifying. And that's a quote from much later. So she's like, it's been so long. Now, the thing that they're trying to push with the defense and the real question here is, is he crazy? He's certainly erratic and not. Yeah. He's got PTSD. He's got bipolar. But that doesn't meet the legal requirement for doesn't know the meaningfulness of his actions. Yeah. Doesn't know consequences type of thing. That's what he said. Adam Walsh's dad is about to roast me. So, yeah. Yeah. And he also said, I'm. know i'm gonna go you know i know i'm a dead man i mean he's he's giving clues that he's aware yeah yeah um so his best friend james steel later told a journalist that interviews him uh journalist named suzanna reed who's a british journalist she'll do an interview later that's i'll give her name now she said that something bad had to happen for him to do what he did because billy wayne wasn't that type of person okay okay um others disagreed here um because they said it had to be war he was talking about the war something that had to have happened to him in vietnam yeah um one of his other friends said there are thousands of people who shot people in war and don't do stuff like this i don't buy that as an excuse i think it's just a legal tactic excellent excellent i think it's a little of both probably but you can't kill people no matter how fucked up you are you can't kill anybody else kill yourself i guess but no matter what you do when you go to court you've got to mount a legal defense and one of them is creating a strategy and they have no way to say he's innocent none every but the kids all he tied everybody up there's a million witnesses he admitted it there's fingerprints the forensics he's dead to right so his only case is he's crazy don't kill him spare him the death penalty because they're going for the death penalty fair yeah uh the prosecution here this is ralph strother the da he said uh quote there has to be an explanation for what he did it wasn't just a situation where someone snaps and does something out of character i mean this wasn't like a heat of passion crime he planned it he had gone shopping bought supplies he built a silencer for his gun this was premeditated silencer he had handcuffs he had duct tape or electrical tape he had all these different things the right amount of handcuffs yeah he went out and these weren't just in his garage oh look i have four i'm lucky he said i need four one for each girl and one for karen um he also talks about billy's wives here in court they talk about the common thread among these women were that uh you know that is the quote they had the misfortune of ever falling for his superficial charm on the surface yeah on the surface he radiated a lovable nice outgoing personality but inside he was hollow and on the inside was the viciousness every one of them after they were with him for a while realized the external glitter uh concealed a vicious interior um he also said that you know if we can get this going and you guys all the jury you know can uh give him the death penalty he said quote if this thing comes out the way we all want it to you can call them three the three merry widows oh boy which is an old the merry widow is an old opera so uh there's that they also said he's uh he's vile and that he's uh what they say he's full of scorpions that's what they said oh body full of scorpions full of scorpions yeah uh it's a weird thing to say in a court of law the defense attorneys here they said that they're going to pull an insanity defense he's a vietnam combat veteran and the experiences and the breakup of his marriage contributed to his unstable mental condition and prevented him from knowing right from wrong but in the middle of it he said i know i'm a dead man and i'm going to be on america's most wanted so it sounds like he knew right from wrong while it was happening uh the prosecution presents the physical evidence they have a confession they have medical testimony witness testimony from jr from the girls from the former uh wives and molested women they bring in the girls he molested back in the day to testify against him uh karen psychiatric profiles assembled during his history they have a lot on this guy so karen testifies and she says he said the divorce was all my fault and i could not treat him that way um she said that pam had called her and candy while uh she was married to billy wayne to ask if she had treated um them the same way uh pam and karen have remained friends mostly because karen is close to gordon the son who goes to school with two of karen's daughters this poor kid i feel horrible for gordon too he didn't do anything he's got to see everybody every day now too yeah and they got everyone in school knows your dad killed that these kids family that's horrible um they said karen's girls have this is karen karen's girls or pam i'm sorry karen's girls have been a real support supportive to gw that's gordon all of her family has and karen's been a great support to him so karen's such a nice lady she's still nice to the son even it's not like she knew him since they were four they have only been together a year and a half right i mean so that's really nice of her um so uh karen said on the afternoon she got home from work and he popped out with a gun and he said quote i need to tell you that i've killed your mother and your father and your brother then she describes how she told showed him the proof and here's your dad's pickup truck and here's the service revolver and she said then he told her to uh tell say goodbye to the restrained children because she was a kid who was a kid who was a kid who was a kid who was a she would never see them again that's what he told her you're never going to see them again so go say goodbye to your kids and she said i didn't want to leave them but realize the only way that they would be safe would be if i got him away from the house and away from the kids which is 100 true yeah if she causes a scene it could be a bloodbath for everybody that whole trailer's just soaked yeah so her going okay yeah no problem let's get out of here that's a great way to protect your kids honestly i mean it sounds crazy to leave them handcuffed but it's better to leave them handcuffed than being them being murdered i think she was brave to do that to keep a brave face and go okay no problem that's that's being a mom you know that's brave shit um she told the jurors how um he described to her how he killed her brother after ambushing him uh then she paused stared straight at billy wayne and said i hate you for making me go through all this again with my kids i can't yeah in her testimony she said that so the judge immediately called for a recess there's his attorneys asked for a mistrial oh this is a big deal um but the judge denied the mistrial and said it's obvious that she would be upset about this it's fine um there is a trial delay though not because of that a threat against prosecutors was telephoned in uh during one of the court days here um or before the court day and they said basically uh the man called and said that if billy gets the death penalty several people from the state will die too meaning the prosecutors yeah so that's there was a threat so they had to do that uh delay it the molested girls testify to two girls who were teenagers when they were fondled these were the neighbors that pam heard about um yeah um i guess uh the two girls testify against him now grown up obviously because they're like almost 30 now his son has to testify also um and uh he took the witness stand to basically uh asked the jury not to kill my father is what he did uh pam said i think it was totally unfair for his lawyers and billy wayne to put his son through that probably right but also if you're trying to save your skin yeah in close uh closings here the prosecutor said it was unfair for defense attorneys and witnesses to imply during the trial that the defense was anybody would have knocked her around a little bit that was his defense imagine going in front of a jury with that defense what would you i mean she's mouthy yeah what would you say you know yeah yeah he didn't like what she made of course he threw the plate at her and then hit her with a sledgehammer who wouldn't what would you do what i mean what is he a pussy come on he's not gonna be pumped out by this broad walk it to the trash what now he has to find something else to eat this is ridiculous so yeah i don't know how you would even go about that um but the prosecutor said we had extensive interviews with all three of his former wives and despite the efforts of the defense to try to portray them as some type of hellions they all seemed to us to be extremely nice hard-working caring people who were victims of a brutal killer they shouldn't be blamed for what he was and that is what the defense tried to do they were victims just like a lot of people were who came in contact with this guy because basically you get if you get the guy's ex-wife up there to testify and she says all the horrible shit as a defense attorney you really have no comeback for that yeah you know you don't there's nothing you can say well didn't you do this so this would happen no she's talking about getting the shit beaten out of her so that's one of those where you just no questions for this witness because you can't make anything good out of that at all yeah you don't go up and then go didn't you do this and didn't you deserve it that's only going to make the guy look worse but what'd you make yeah well honestly did you put any effort into it be honest so you made a hamburger and you burnt it that hamburger was not helped by your actions was it yes you're a bad chicken can you say it out loud oh my god uh yeah because please say it out loud so um they said they should not be blamed for what he was and that's what they tried to do yes exactly so the verdict comes in here and it comes back guilty of every goddamn charge against him and they probably would have tried to add a couple more if they were allowed to hey there's a few more things we'd like to blame him for maybe watergate was he involved in that because let's put it on him fuck this guy guy if not let's let's charge him with uh contribute contribute to the the uh terrible water table around here please there's bodies there's blood there's got to be something seeping into the water supply here come on did it yeah uh he's ruining the aqueduct or the with the aquifer that's what it's called an aqueduct is i think takes the water it's underwater is the oh that's the storage of the water yeah i think i i'm not a scientist obviously the duct hey everybody i do know that we're not scientists in case you're in case you're confused about the fact whether jimmy and i were scientists we're not aquifer is also a uh an ointment oh is it that's right it is yeah it's that yeah it goes it's good on rashes and shit um so under the version of the texas statute from which he was here yeah to impose a capital sentence the jury had to answer two questions in the affirmative this is in texas okay the first is is he a human and the second is do you like the look on his face or not no i'm kidding that's not the two questions um the first special issue um addressed whether the defendant had acted deliberately and with reasonable expectation that the death of the deceited you know dead people or another would result so okay did he deliberately do something that he figured a normal person would infer that they would die from yeah on purpose right and the second question is whether there's a probability that the defendant would commit criminal acts of violence that would constitute a continuing threat to society in the future in the future see this i don't understand because if life in prison is the only other option then he's limit his continuing threat to society is zero what's it prison isn't society yeah it's just not that's not society it's different so i mean society what what what does it matter what his threat level is if he's not going to be out anyway exactly if he's in a supermax what does it matter but they try to say that basically that if he's violent in prison then that's more shit the state has to do and that's more people that can be hurt and they can they they're they're considered society when it helps them kill somebody but they're not considered society when they want like you know medical care and things of that nature then they're not considered members of society it's very convenient how they use the prisoners here whatever benefits us monetarily that's what you know whatever works yeah yeah and also politically you got to understand too yeah somebody's i want to keep this job every four years someone's got to go on tv and said say vote for me because i'll fry the more of them than the next guy i'll fry running for da every four years you know and that's what it is in texas whoever kills more is the winner you know um so the exhibits for aggravating circumstances here um a psychiatric report the one from when he was 15 years old um yeah which seems a little crazy that comes back to bite you in the ass yep in the report he admitted to several illegal actions and they were so that's included things he did when he was like 13 years old in a group home is now evidence in his murder trial when that's supposed to be a quote-unquote expunged or at least forgotten when you're 18 i would think so and it was it wasn't a it wasn't a court ordered thing so i would think it would be pretty yeah i guess if it wasn't a private psychiatric uh consultation then it's not private i suppose it can be subpoenaed yeah i mean at that point whatever what's it matter what he did back then because he's that way worse since hey let's let's go post vietnam yeah with the beatings and the molestations and everything i think that's good enough right i think we got a pretty good idea who the who this guy is i think yeah a little i got a hint i think we know this man there's also a veterans administration report of a medical examiner examination of billy wayne by a neuropsychiatrist performed in 1970 a veterans administration rating decision relating to him dated february 20th 1970 and a clinical narrative relating to him dated november 22nd 1967 so that's like the documented stuff then they bring in pam they bring in candy they bring in molested girls they bring in everybody who he's ever wronged to say what a monster he is now he has no remorse whatsoever the defense their mitigating circumstances are vietnam service he did join the marines and volunteer and go to vietnam he has ptsd and bipolar disorder and he has these you know problems from fighting for his country they have that he had a troubled childhood he spent his entire childhood in a state home um you know it's don't kill this guy basically he's had a shitty enough life is what their thing is you didn't have much of a chance no no um then they bring in dr stephen mark now keep in mind this is he's testifying for the defense here okay defense all right um this guy's a psychiatrist who said he examined billy wayne on more than one occasion and found that he was a violent and suicidal person due to the depression caused by his ptsd and bipolar disorder all right he stated that his psychiatric disorders and his unique history of separation from his mother and previous wives caused a total loss of control huh he also yeah he also testifies that he suffered from two psychiatric disorders ptsd and bipolar and stated that he's prone to become quote potentially explosive and potentially aggressive and assaultive and also suggested bipolar disorder might be by heredity which is all fine and dandy but you're saying things that are reasons to not keep him around basically hey he could explode at any time yeah i mean like yeah but they've got to say that stuff to try to win favor yeah well he gets it gets worse too this guy he also indicated that the illnesses made him more susceptible to severe mood swings which resulted in the in days like the day of the murders when he loses control completely he did indicate that he would be less likely to be violent if he took medication he admitted that timely hospitalization and treatment with mood swings would be less likely and that food stabilizing drugs could have prevented the murders and that his psychiatric disorders could easily be controlled they pointed to evidence presented by the state that implicated that um apparently later on the attorneys and this expert disagreed over what the export and what he was going to testify to apparently he's he's saying some shit on the stand that they didn't ask him to say want him to say or hire him to say he's just saying it um yeah they according to the attorneys they believe that he's going to testify to a murder and that he's going to testify to a murder and that he's going to testify to a murder and that he's going to testify to a murder and that this doctor would testify that he would not be a future danger not that he's super fucking dangerous that's why they hired him all right he testified that he'd be less likely to commit them but you know he said that um he said that uh developed at recently developed antidepressants this is 1990 um would help block the symptoms from coming out he testified that the medical treatment would probably control his mental illness and that there would be less likelihood of any criminal action and he said that he would not be a future danger not that he's super fucking criminal acts if he was adequately treated for both of his disorders so there's that um the lawyer said they were surprised by the testimony and um that they would not have called him as a witness if he had known what his testimony was going to be essentially now they also bring in a dr grigson okay um this is interesting he testifies that he was suffering that billy wayne was suffering from severe depression at the time of the murders and that it was very probable that he would ever commit this type of offense again it was just he had a bad run of it again so again go lean in on a man who's murdered the police chief it's a police sergeant yeah and his parents parents kidnapped the guy's sister tied up my tightest son up the son and three and three girls three girls too disgusting um be lenient he said he said that billy wayne was more horrified by the pictures of the victims than anyone and that billy wayne had feelings of remorse and guilt and guilt uh both psychiatrists agreed that billy wayne linked the loss of his wives with the loss of his mother uh such that the divorces triggered severe bouts of suicidal depression well that might be true but can't kill anybody still um he also uh termed that this dr grigson tries to talk about the 1964 psychiatric report where he is classified as having a sociopathic personality disturb disturbance of a dissocial type okay this dr grigson says the term sociopath did not mean the same thing in 1964 as it does in 1990 and that the diagnosis of an individual as a sociopath could not be made until a person was 18 years old he concluded that billy wayne was not a sociopath then and still not a sociopath is that right he sure is something he said that he does suffer from severe depression due to his wife divorcing him and that he does not represent a continuing threat to society and will not be involved in any future acts of violence because his crime was a quote passion type thing fair passion type thing um wow um the jury uh has to consider whether you know he poses his future threat to society while being in prison for the rest of his life or if they should kill a passion thing yeah yeah um now the other mitigating evidence is he's not a sociopath he's not a He's a good guy, he's a good guy. They call about 20 witnesses testified about his dedication to community service and coaching kids in football and the Waco Jaycees, and that he was once in a book titled Outstanding Young Men of America. Wow. He also presents evidence that he was involved in various youth programs over the years, has a good relationship with his son. Okay. He gets along well with coworkers. That's nice. This is a tough sway here. Yeah. But he's fun in the lunchroom. That's a tough one. You're a locker room guy. Yeah. You know, that's what it is. A good locker room guy. I've got to have him in there. He's like a coach on the field, this guy. He joined the Marines and served in Vietnam, and he served as a section leader in the U.S. Army Reserves and was well-respected in the Reserves. So they also said, this is the final closing argument and sentencing from the defense, they said, remember, you're holding Bill Coble's life. You're holding Bill Coble's life in your hands and says, save this man's life. Save his life. The prosecution said, think of the lives he had in his hands. It said, think of the Vika family. It's not about Bill Coble anymore. It's about justice for these people. Let's put him on death row. Let's do it, team. Let's do it. The way they said it is so funny. Come on. Come on. Everybody on three. Come on, gang. Hey, death row. Death row on three. Oh, my God. So the jury instructions are as such, because that's important. You're instructed that when you deliberate on the questions posed in these special issues, you are to consider mitigating circumstances, if any, supported by the evidence presented in both phases of the trial, whether presented by the state or the defendant. A mitigating circumstance may include, but is not limited to, any aspect of the defendant's character. And record or circumstances of the crime, which you believe could make a death sentence inappropriate in this case. If you find that there are any mitigating circumstances in this case, you must decide how much weight they deserve, if any, and therefore give effect and consideration to them in assessing the defendant's personal culpability. At the time you answer the special issue. If you determine when giving effect to the mitigating evidence, if any, that a life sentence as reflected by a negative finding. To the issue under consideration, rather than the death sentence, is an appropriate response to the personal culpability of the defendant, a negative finding should be given to one of the special issues. They make it as hard to understand as a fucking, as a proposition on a voting ballot. Yeah, I don't know. A yes means a no for this? What the fuck are you talking about? It's just complicated. But vote yes to vote against this. Yeah, it's just, it's not exactly that on this, but that's what it feels like. It's like that complicated. Like, what the fuck does beyond the superseding, what are you talking about? You have to, it probably took, yeah, he's a bad guy. Exactly. The jury takes about one hour of deliberation. So that, that, it seems like it would take me an hour just to dissect the instructions. I want to go home. And go through it. Yeah. These people are like, fuck this shit. After one hour of deliberations, the jury says, you, sir. May fuck off death penalty by lethal injection. So, we all expected that on this one. Yeah. I don't know. This is wild shit, man. I mean, if they're going to do it ever, this is, you know, I don't know. So, to the prosecutors, as he's being led away, he said, God help you. To the prosecutor. Then, as he's being led from the courtroom, he turned to Karen and said, thanks, babe. Thanks, babe. Thanks, babe. And she said, you're welcome. Which I like Karen. She's like, fuck you. Welcome, babe. You're welcome. Karen, they said, whose dramatic recreation of this whole day highlighted the nine-day trial, said after the verdict, she was very, very thankful. She said, he will never hurt anyone again. Hopefully, this is the beginning of the end, but it will never be over for me. Okay. Next up, there's an article here on Dr. Grigson. Remember Dr. Grigson? Vaguely. Who testified? Yeah. He's the guy, the second guy who testified. All right. Okay. Now, this is an article called, quote, Jesus, Dr. Death introduces new death-defying feat. What is that? All right. Quote, it was like Babe Ruth laying down a sacrifice bunt. Jesse Helms posing for a Mapplethorpe photo. Ronald Reagan recalling everything in detail. You got to remember, this is the 80s, where people still remembered that Reagan was completely fucking senile and didn't know where he was for most of his presidency. And now people just call that Reagan. No, he didn't know where he was most of the time. What a guy. He had a half-decent economy for like a year and a half. Yeah. And then had a huge crash and didn't know where he was for the rest of the fucking time. And fucking sold, never mind, oversaw terrible things. Couldn't spell economy after that. Recalling everything in detail. I was thinking more of Iran-Contra and all that shit, which was terrible. Anyway, they said it was Dr. Death in a Waco courtroom testifying for life. Dr. Death goes professionally as Dr. Grigson of Dallas. He's a psychiatrist for hire who's famous for convincing juries to condemn people to death. He's the guy who usually goes for the prosecution. Yeah. He's switched. Grigson has appeared in 124 cases on behalf of prosecutors seeking a death penalty. That's a lot. Yeah. Wow. Generally, he proves persuasive. But last week stopped the press as Grigson climbed into the witness stand in McClellan County District Court to tell a jury that it should spare the life of a triple murderer. So they go on. Before he was captured, he tied up his way. Okay. If that crime wasn't sufficient indictment, the jury heard from Coble's two former ex-wives who said he beat them. The trial also revealed that Coble, a Vietnam veteran said to be suffering from PTSD, once assaulted a co-worker with a hammer. He also got that one. A co-worker? You're not even married to this fucking person. In the punishment phase of the trial, courthouse regulars rubbed their eyes as Grigson testified for Coble. Grigson, whose minstrel song normally wows juries about the threat the defendant poses to a society. His minstrel song. Oh, my God. Grigson said Coble posed no future threat to society because he's different as night and day from other capital murder defendants. He's examined. He said, Billy is not like the others. He has great remorse. He hangs his head. His guilt is overwhelming and he won't look people in the eye because he's lying about being guilty. Right. That's why I don't look him in the eye. Generally, if you're lying, it's hard to look at people. And he also said that Coble would be a model prisoner. What? Just perfect model. They said, Though no one was called to challenge Grigson's credibility, the prosecution could have found one by getting Randall Dale Adams on the phone. In spite of Grigson's best efforts, Adams is still around to testify. Adams was sentenced to die for a crime he did not commit. The murder of Dallas police officer in 1976. That's the thin blue line case. That's where he's from. Oh, my God. The Earl Morris documentary, which if you haven't seen it, it's like the beginning of that kind of documentary of like a well done artistic, not just interviewing static people. Recreations done in an artistic way. You know, telling a story. It's not a story of wrong shit. It's the original. It streams all the time. It's streaming somewhere. Thin blue line. Anyway, many people have seen the movie since then. What most people don't realize is that Morris at first intended the documentary to be about Dr. Death. In Morris's interviews about Grigson, he came across Adams. He came to believe that Adams was innocent. So he didn't even start out making this documentary about that case. Adams tells in the movie how Grigson performed only the most cursory of experiments. Before coming to the conclusion that he would share with the jury that Adams was a sociopath that would murder again. The jury believed Grigson and condemned Adams to death. In March 89, a state appeals court overturned the conviction. Ironically, the man who testified against Adams and finally admitted to the murder, David Harris, now awaits execution for a different murder. So they blew that five different fucking ways. Filmmaker Morris believes that Adams was the Adams case was a classic example. If citizens caught up in a puzzle. Wanting to find someone to blame, wanting to find someone to believe, even to the point of hiring someone to believe they just wanted that to be solved. They don't want to believe there was someone shooting their cops in the street. That's it. In trial after trial in this country, the psychiatrists and experts are assembled, each to prove an assigned point. Grigson has been the heavy hitter for the prosecution for quite some time. In last week's trial, he acknowledged that out of 127 capital murder cases. In which he testified, this was the only the third time he'd appeared for the defense. Apparently, Dr. Death is not as convincing when he plays Dr. Mercy. On this case, the jury voted to execute Billy Wayne Coble. Some will say the sentence restores their faith in the system. Others will call the whole process an exercise in quibbling. Just how sick is this very sick man? As for Grigson, it's another day, another dollar. Probably back to the prosecution where the odds are better. Win some, lose some. Hey, Dr. Death. That's a fucking good article. just eating that guy's shit now they send old billy wayne to death row yeah he's on death row his nickname on death row is five dollar bill oh what that story came out and they call him in court now we don't know if that's true or not they said the origin of the nickname is not confirmed but they think that's probably the type of thing that sticks with a guy because there's no other reason to call him five dollar bill oh his name's bill but and bill is that's that's pretty good prisoners are great at nicknames how much time do you have they got all day you sit there for 24 hours staring at a guy you'll come up with a good nickname oh yeah oh yeah it's great um now he is a model prisoner by the way unbelievable not one infraction of any kind unbelievable on death row absolutely perfect doesn't talk back doesn't do anything wrong goes with the program a hundred percent he's also an old man now model prisoner yeah he's about what is he like almost oh he's like he's in his early 40s when he gets sentenced right all right it's like 40 um but as he goes on he'll slow down a lot so 2005 is an appeal this is 15 years after the the whole the court case he claims trial counsel did not adequately prepare prepare for the sentencing phase of the trial because they failed to interview the judge and the judge did not interview and prepare witnesses who testified at the trial um they said the trial counsel failed to conduct any investigation of witnesses who might have provided alibis or who are eyewitnesses alibis for what right a complete failure to investigate alibi witnesses fell below the standard of a reasonable reasonably competent attorney practicing under prevailing norms is what he said um or what his new lawyer said uh coble concedes the trial counsel's professional evaluator interviewed all the witnesses prior to their testimony furthermore assuming counsel failed to fully prepare these witnesses coble only argues that these witnesses would have been more effective if they'd been better prepared which does not come close to suggesting that quote but for counsel's error the result of the proceeding would have been different which is the standard for ineffective assistance um they uh coble also alleges that the trial counsel failed to call favorable witnesses to testimony and the appeals court said complaints of uncalled witnesses are not favored because the presentation of testimonial evidence is a matter of trial strategy because of allegations of what witnesses would have testified is largely speculative speculative yeah you don't know what they would have said yeah yeah you can't after a football game you can't said well if we would have passed on third and four we would have won the game we don't want to stay you know it um billy wayne has not established what information these witnesses would have provided based on what can be gleaned from his briefs these witnesses would only have presented testimony already provided by other witnesses that he's a decent guy yeah um he also says his attorney didn't come see him enough oh i missed that guy i missed him i'm so lonely they only conducted two interviews at him while he was awaiting trial in jail he said there's no support for this assertion in the record uh a deputy of the sheriff's office who worked in the jail was responsible for keeping records said that attorney visitations were not supported by the attorney's office are not recorded in the same manner as lay visitations yeah they said attorneys were simply required to sign a card that was subsequently destroyed at the end of the week it's that so they don't know how many times they've been there the trial counsel hoagie carrolls uh said that it was not unusual for him to see a client in jail without signing in and that jail visitation records indicated no visits to coble would be inaccurate um so yeah he said that he wasn't required to have a meeting he also points out uh dr marks's affidavit in the state habeas hearing here that asserts that he discussed the case uh at least on at least six occasions uh here dr mark remarked that the attorney should not have been surprised by his testimony that coble might be a future danger because they're saying this guy that was testifying for me got up and said bad things right he argues that the presentation of this unfavorable evidence our expert testimony negates the effectiveness of the defense and um the state concluded that at most there was a miscommunication concerning the content of his testimony or a miscomprehension of the substance of his testimony as it pertained to future dangerousness and mitigation so they basically have two conflicting stories and the court believed the uh the lawyer that they expected dr mark to testify favorably for their client not that they submitted the report despite being aware of the damaging nature of the testimony therefore they concluded that the council's performance was not ineffective because this guy tricked him essentially okay he went up and testified and the council said if i knew that's what he was going to say i wouldn't fucking put him up there he just said that shit so they're like that's not the council's fault that this guy goes rogue um so that's it's affirmed good 2007 another appeal fifth circuit the court found that the jury instructions in the original 1990 trial see that why i give jury instructions at that point uh that the special issues asking about deliberateness and future dangerousness had not been given the jury or had not given the jury a proper vehicle for considering his mitigating evidence under the supreme court precedent juries must be given able to give full effect to mitigating circumstances the old texas instructions drafted before the 1991 legislative fix yeah that's the next year were constitutionally deficient uh this was the problem they said he had mental illness ptsd bipolar horrific childhood vietnam service all of it double-edged it could make him dangerous or it could reduce his moral blameworthiness the old instructions didn't let a jury navigate that it went straight to the dangerousness um one of his attorneys said that he thinks that uh billy wayne should be entitled to a new sentencing hearing at the very least because of the mitigating factors that they can't do anything about it he claimed uh precluded him for being capable of performing of forming an intent to kill he said quote i strongly believe that mr coble is not guilty of premeditated capital murder and that's what we were saying all along yeah he was not in his right mind when this happened he was suffering from a variety of mental illnesses most notably post-traumatic stress disorder from his time in vietnam and that he was not capable of formulating in his mind the specific intent for capital murder but he had no moments of clarity over the 10 hours this went on i get time to say so many things that told what he knew what he was doing it's yeah it's crazy the fifth circuit court of appeals in new orleans issues its ruling and they agree with the defense oh my god the death sentence is vacated not the conviction okay the sentence is vacated um so they're gonna have to go back the former prosecutor ralph ralph strother who was a sitting judge by then said he called it an appalling shocking stunning and sickening decision he said to overturn it he said it was just clear that they didn't want to impose the death penalty in this case and accused the court of engaging in quote fanciful might have beens wow he said here you have this vermin who snuffed out three innocent lives like they were nothing more than a candle and now he may may get to live the natural rest of his natural life they're not sending him to barbados he's still in a texas maximum security prison it's not fun but okay i get what you're saying he's just mad about someone going back if you're a lawyer and your shit gets dinged on appeal you're just mad at someone going back and spray painting over your work basically but he's got a trip to sandals james and it's not fair it's not right come on yeah he's going to sandals every death row inmate who gets overturned they all get a trip to sandals that's how it works great um ted who is robert uh vicka's brother said when someone brags about killing three people how in the world can anybody take pity on him it's not a matter of pity that's the thing it's a matter of legality he said this don't this don't make sense one cotton picking bit that's what i'm one cotton picking bit this makes no sense it gets better by the way his his texas isms get even better um this don't make sense one cotton picking bit i don't understand we've been waiting 18 years and busting taxpayers all this for nothing when he should have been buzzard bait a long time ago buzzard bait buzzard bait and cotton picket in the same fucking sentence are people baiting buzzards are we are we using those for something he should have been buzzard bait well that's what i do boy i'd be i'd bait him i'd put his splain on a hook out there on the road just you gotta reel it in can't have no slack in your line now well i'm not gonna yeah you got real real tight that way when he hits you set that hook right you gotta set him i'd say at least a 12 pound test on that bad boy too you don't want to go lower than that it's a dense beak uh 2008 there's a re-sentencing hearing it's all it's a re-sentencing trial essentially it's that phase of the trial again yeah um prosecution trying to prove future dangerousness um they get all the information that they gave in the first trial and now they also give photographs and cards found in his death row cell, including. numerous pictures of scantily clad young women and girls described as young gymnasts and figure skaters. Are they above 18 years old? Can we have that? Is it a Sports Illustrated or is it private photos? That's what I mean. What is it? Is it Carrie Strug on a Wheaties box or is it? I don't think anybody's jerking off to that. But what was her name? The one in the late 90s. No, God, no. The one in the late 90s that everybody liked. Like Katarina Witt or whatever. She was like hot. She was on Arliss, an episode where she was like hot. I remember. It's the only reason why I remember. She was on an episode of Arliss I saw 30 years ago. So anyway, and romantic cards from a female pen pal. Okay, again, gentlemen, if you can't get laid, it is on you. You did it. This is an old man sitting in jail. He's molested people, beat women, killed a whole fucking family, kidnapped them, did all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He still has women wanting to fuck him. Perhaps beats off to Mary Lou Retton. Possibly masturbating to Carrie Strug, which is the weirdest thing I've ever heard. It's super weird. And he's got a girl. The prosecution calls Dr. Richard Coons. He was the same Austin psychiatrist who had testified in 1990 that he was a future danger. 18 years had passed and they said Coble has been a model inmate with zero disciplinary reports. Dr. Coons. Dr. Coons returned to the witness stand and still said he would be a future danger in prison, even though for 18 years he's done nothing. Still future. That's listen, I'd love to drag this guy behind my car. Don't get me wrong. This is I'm not defending him, but we have to have certain logic in our legal system for you to come out when he's first convicted and say, I think he'll be a future danger in prison. That's fine. But once he's been in there for 18 years is almost 60 years old and has done nothing wrong. I think that ship is fucking sailed. Right. I don't know. Put the right person in there to rile him up and perhaps he'll flip it again. He'll go from not one infraction in 18 years. It is fascinating. Not a talking back. That there are no women in there and he doesn't attack anybody. No, that's what it is. So I'm sorry, but you can't say that he's still he's going to, you know, he won't be able to hack it in prison when he is. That's just. That's just silly. His explanation for the spotless prison record is everyone on death row behaves because their convictions on appeal and they don't want to hurt their case. Oh, bullshit. How many cases have we done where that is the complete opposite? They're trying to escape for Christ. They got nothing. Stabbing other people. Right. Yeah. They're raping guards. They're doing all sorts of shit at the hearing required to evaluate whether expert testimony is reliable. He was asked about his methodology. He said he relied on six. Personal factors. This Dr. Coons history of violence, attitude toward violence, the crime itself, personality and general behavior, conscience and where where the person would be. He's developed this methodology himself over 20 to 30 years and could cite no books, articles or journals that validated this personally built system. I made it decided I made it up. It's not peer reviewed at all. It's just me. They said. He'd never gone back to check whether his prior predictions of future dangerousness had ever been accurate. He could not state his error rate at all. He agreed that different psychiatrists using the same methodology on the same facts could come to opposite conclusions. All right. So the defense said Dr. Coons admitted that his methodology could not be traced to a particular textbook or professional journal, nor could he cite even one authority or article that supported it. Coons has never gone back to check prison records. He'd never seen whether his predictions are accurate and consequently has no idea of his own accuracy rate. They they also they abstain. Also, the prosecution brings in a guy who testifies that violence in Texas prisons is rampant and there's an underreporting of it. So even though he's got zero infractions, he still might be in there being violent. We just don't know a couple of things he's done. We don't know. We don't know it. The defense brings in a forensic psychologist. Who's got a lot. Actually, he's Dr. Mark Cunningham, a forensic psychologist. They said peer reviewed publications. He's an APA fellow, a Texas Psychology Association Award winner. He conducted a systematic violence risk assessment and concluded that Coble fell in the lowest risk category for prison violence. His age is a big part of that, by the way. The fact that he's like almost 60 years old, his methodology here, he described Dr. Coons. His approach as tea leaf reading, basically pulling it directly out of his ass. The other guy, the guy who testifies to the prosecution, the guy who made up his own criteria. He said that's just blind guessing unless those factors have been demonstrated to be predictive of violence in prison. That's the problem with not knowing the literature. You have no idea whether the factors you're looking at are predictive of anything or not. Sure. He's never gone back to check to see if that's right. During deliberations, the jury asked to review a couple of things. First of all, the psychiatric report from 1964, the military report from 1967, the photographs and cards found in his death row cell and all of that. They did not ask to see Dr. Coons is 1989 report. Oh, they don't want to see. OK, they don't want to see that. So they said that he's sitting there after deliberating for less than four hours. Seven man, five woman jury comes back and says, you may fuck off death penalty again. You say you killed a cop. All right. That's what it came down to. Karen said, I'm just glad that it's over for my mother and father and brother. They're always with me. October 2010. More appeals. And it's basically Dr. Coons is a hack. That's the problem. And the court calls actually the Texas. Court of Criminal Appeals would later agree that admitting Coons testimony was error, unreliable, idiosyncratic, essentially a gut feeling dressed up as medical credentials. Yeah, I made it up and called it called it junk science, junk science, but ruled the error was harmless because there was enough, enough other evidence. They said Dr. Coons is testimony wasn't the thing that sent him to death row. You say you killed a cop and you say you molest kids and you say you beat your wives. You say you torture. You say you tortured a lady and stabbed her in the face. You say you killed all of them. Whole family. So that's how that goes. Now, Coons is predictions. There's a big article here about Coons again, talking about what just a complete pile of douche this man is and all of that kind of thing. Now, 2000 and by the way, state habeas denied on this one. They acknowledged that Dr. Coons testimony was pile of shit. But it's. Said it didn't matter. Essentially said you can be fucked over as long as it's they have other evidence. 2018, 21 claims, including the junk science issued, all denied by the district court and affirmed by the Fifth Circuit. So Supreme Court, they file a clemency petition noting that the client was now 70 years old in poor health with a blemish free prison record for 30 years. They called him calm and philosophical and detached throughout, showing no genuine remorse and repeatedly framing the killings as something that, quote, happened or just like resulted from circumstances. He accepted factual guilt, but, you know, just does some flippant shit. Here's some excerpts from it here. When asked about the counts, if he counts the days and months and years, he said about 29 years. That was what he said. And then he said, well, death is death. A person said one time and said it's that's a horrible way of dying and said that's a horrible way of dying as if it what is a good way. Can you tell me what a good way to die is? The longer you've lived, the easier it is to accept death. He talked about his childhood and said he missed out on love since his mother wasn't around ever. They said, do you regret what happened, what you did that day? Do you? you understand and feel the horror of what happened he said was you there i just said well you're here asshole so something must happen i'm not he said you're here i'm on that side of the glass so obviously i wasn't there i also was you there yeah i'm alive so i probably wasn't there ain't there yeah everybody else is dead unless they were a kid or your ex-wife he said you say something if you wasn't there what happened you say i did i did i did how can you say something if he wasn't there oh boy i don't know what that even means um he then said i accepted i did the emergency yes i've accepted that i'm here for those murders yes he said uh then he said they asked him if he felt it feels bad and he said well i feel bad about what i did and what the world's done i feel bad that uh circumstances have got to a point where they shouldn't have gotten i feel bad about killing the first person i killed in vietnam i'd see them vividly just as clear as i did the day it happened but i could never go back and change it okay they said they said did you love your wife karen and uh he said it's amazing he avoided answering love and deflected when asked if he was angry that she wanted to leave he said it's amazing that was never said before but it was always said afterwards that she wanted to leave so bad um he said they asked him how do you want to be remembered it would what do you think of the afterlife yeah he said i've never thought of it it really doesn't matter to me personally because if i'm dead i'm with god and it's going and it's not going to concern me anymore and uh then he talked about his son and his kids basically and they said your son is going to be with at the execution and he said i want him to be there for himself but to me i'd really just soon just as soon have nobody be there you have to remember uh you have to remember the person not the body and they said i want him to be there for himself but to me i'd really just soon just as soon they said if the vicka family expected an apology from you before you're executed and then he cuts her off and says okay if you want me to give some uh give some type of uh like rehearsed apology or something i've already said i regret what happened and i truly regret what happened but i also truly regret what happened what happens to a lot of things in life there's there's no fixing this not not no fix him he's an asshole till the end a complete fucking asshole and like i said i'd 100 worthy of worse there is a giant pile of shit that deserves anything he gets um two days before the execution uh the aclu in a written piece said the cobalt execute that cobalt will be executed in such on such discredited testimony is unconscionable the example of his case already shows uh all who are willing to look uh look why the death penalty is never justice and why it should be abolished based on that shitty psychology shit and then they don't over turn it february 28 2019 execution day here we go food u.s supreme texas texas regular meal don't even know what it was u.s supreme court posted on their website that the application for a stay of execution had been denied you don't even get a you don't even get a phone call they just posted on their website we'll tweet it at you that's all right the uh the british journalist suzanna reed um was outside the prison she said his life hangs by a thread and that thread has now been cut very british the vicka family's there jr bobby's son uh uncle ted is there and three other family members entered as the prison as witnesses a group of waco police officers and veterans gathered outside to salute the family of bobby um jr um who's you know christ who's got to be 40 years old by now almost he said i think he deserves it i think it's very important that he doesn't get to choose how he dies because my grandpa and my dad didn't get that yeah he took that away from them i hope he's going through that right now the mental anguish of knowing he's about to die he said still the way they do it is more humane than what he did to my family it's not what he deserves but it will be good to know that we got as much justice as allowed by the law now will karen attend no yes she will she's coming yeah she's coming she drove from san antonio she didn't go inside she was in the second like the ante room out there she was in the second like the ante room out there she was in the second like the in the support room they call it where the waco cops were waiting for the family and all that he she said it's not that i don't want to witness his death it's just that i know what type of person he is and i think he would be happy to see me i had no control over what happened that day in august of 89 but the one thing i can control is what happens to him in the last few minutes of his life and that will be not seeing me great point great point i like her uh the coble family gordon is there uh i guess his wife because it's his daughter-in-law um you know uh billy wayne's daughter-in-law and grandson is there too wow um jesus they're killing my dream get in the car someday it's my dream someday that my little grandson is going to get to see me executed that's my dream someday pop pop's dead um so he's transported from the uh unit in livingston yeah to huntsville it's about 40 miles here gets in there his last words are fuck it here we go that'll be five dollars wow yes sir that will be five dollars i love you i love you and i love you to his family members he said mike i love you where's nelly at i love you that will be five dollars take care that'll be five that's what he said whatever that means that's got it's his catchphrase now so they inject him and as he closes his eyes gordon freaks out oh we've never had this before gordon flips his shit and starts banging on the glass screaming no no this is bullshit okay his daughter -in-law is also involved and his grandson gordon's kid they all get up they begin it's a there's fists and kicking reporters are getting kicked a fucking ride they're just freaking out and they're going a reporter who was in the room jasmine caldwell got kicked and punched wow officers removed all three from the witness room meaning the the son the grandson and the daughter-in-law and they were taken to walker county jail and charged with resisting arrest yeah billy wayne was pronounced dead at 6 24 he was the oldest person executed by the state of texas since 1982 oh and um yeah so there's that now the outburst that happened the guards rushed in removed gordon and his son dalton they were both arrested on misdemeanor resisting and disorderly conduct charges gordon said dalton perfect like that's patrick swayze in rose house yeah roadhouse dalton that's perfect gordon said he did not attack the glass or anyone before he was pulled out of the room he said i was collapsing backward into my son's arms basically i didn't know he was going to catch me but he did we were headed to the floor and got attacked okay he said they weren't he said they beat the living shit out of us good they beat the living shit out of us and my son he doesn't have anything on his record but now his job is in jeopardy he missed a day of work and he and his concealed handgun license might get revoked and all because he all because he caught his dad and supported me emotionally in one of the hardest times in our lives why'd you go if you can't handle it i think you thought he could handle it and when you see someone being creepy gross yeah it's the creepiest thing why would you want everyone to gather in a room get a time imagine if a murderer did that imagine if a murderer said i'm gonna kill you on this date and time and they come get you and then they fed you and they brought you in a room and they had a bunch of people watch they call your family and ask them to come watch it yeah you're not gonna go to that a prosecutor would say that is the sickest person who's ever fucking lived who did that and that's why i'm not gonna go to that i'm not gonna go to that i'm not gonna go to that's how we do it that's weird it'd be much more humane to just say someday you'll get it and then they go and hit him with one of those things they hit cattle with while they sleep in their cell one day that would be the real strong one yeah boom done that's it but you can't if you if you so you can't go to that no um well you have to though if your father asked you to go and he's your father and you love him and he asked you to be there to support him you can't say no it's his last request ever how do you say no to that if you love your father i think nobody would that's always there but um i couldn't go if i'm gonna freak out gordon said he suffered a pinched nerve injuries to his shoulder and back and superficial injuries to his body he said his son was also injured he said we were not there for any type of violence my heart goes out to the vicka family i've said that many many many times and if i could give my life to bring back one of their loved ones i would do it in a heartbeat they didn't deserve what happened to them and we didn't deserve what happened to us me and getting the living shit beaten out of him he's like i didn't deserve that i'm on their side now we're victims now jr uh bob you know the son here he said that um quote and he didn't seem to be affected by the fact that he just killed your father and he said no he didn't meaning billy wayne he said no no i mean i can't feel sorry for someone like that like billy wayne um the uh attorney um who fought for coble for years said it's disappointing he was executed on the basis of junk science and perjury now on the charges for billy's family for fucking gordon and the son jr who by the way way is a defense attorney in Waco at this point and used to be a county prosecutor said that I didn't see the outburst I don't know what happened but I heard it I feel like GW is also a victim in all this he didn't ask for any of this that had to be very emotional for him I would hope the prosecutors down there would refuse the case and let him go on with his life oh that's nice it's obvious these they're killing your father the circumstances are pretty remote and who beat him up the cops oh the cops beat the shit out of him yeah there was a shitload of Waco cops in the outside room waiting to salute the family for some reason I mean I get salute them salute the guy salute the coffin I don't worry yeah it's fucking crazy so um anyway right after that JR ends up becoming a McClellan County prosecutor really yep he absolutely does he said inspired in part by his father who was a police sergeant when he was killed yeah so they said he got his job because of his credentials not his lineage tied up yeah he had a he knows how victims feel that's a they're a nice family these people by the way they really seem like decent people yeah Karen is still alive living in San Antonio and they have renamed a highway for Bobby that's nice for Sergeant Vicka here along the current they said the department for elected officials this is a stretch of highway US of US highway 84 near Axtell they unveiled the name of it and it is these police sergeant Bobby Vicka Memorial Highway what a wild place there you go everybody that is some weird Texas story with justice and Texas justice and junk science and a horrible molesting asshole man who everybody would want to back over with their car like I said I don't know what to do with him I don't know what to do with him I don't said but it's crazy this is a crazy case this is so much here place that just yeah precipitates some wild behavior it's crazy shit so uh wow very quickly here at the end of the show since we're running out of time here definitely would like to say uh if you would like tickets to small town murder live shows or if you want merchandise or anything like that or just want to find out some new info the website's got a complete redo also so you just want to go poke around it looks great uh head over to shut up and give me murder.com get your tickets for live shows denver on may 2nd you are next up and uh one of the shows with tickets left here and then that's this weekend as a matter of fact and then buffalo sold out sorry royal oak michigan on may 30th as well very few tickets left for that like less than 50 so get them if you want them then we're minneapolis or milwaukee on the 18th of september minneapolis on september 19th dallas san jose sacramento terry town and boston get in there shut up and give me murder.com listen to crime and sports listen to your stupid opinions check those out get yourself also follow on social media at small town murder on instagram small town pod on facebook get yourself patreon patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material anybody five dollars a month or above you get everything we put out including hundreds of back bonus episodes immediately upon subscription like between three and four hundred of them tons of them new ones every other week one crime in sports and one small town murder you can't beat it it is the best value you're going to get for podcasting any patreon this week even that cheap anymore it's not you can't get anything you can't get a half a subway sandwich for that um so for crime and sports this week so yeah you get crime and sports and one small town murder every other week this week small town murder we're going to do an internet salad let's refer from all the the whole world is a shit show on fire we're going to go through it and find the parts of it that are just fun to make fun of none of the heavyweights are going to be able to make fun of it none of the heavy stuff none of the politics none of that shit we're going to make fun of just bullshit that needs to be made fun of everybody cleanse your palate with us let's put it that way that is uh patreon.com slash crime in sports plus you get all of our shows all ad free as well as a shout out right goddamn now jimmy hit me with the names of the most wonderful people in the world who keep this show going and honestly we can't do it without hit me with them right now this week's producers are christy miller addie murphy thank you so much gary howard and scranton pa uh happy hours more bastard gary yeah scranton's a shithole good luck happy hours in splendora texas one of these days those guys are going to be in the same town uh telena jensen can't make it to uh i think it was denver that's a bummer thank you so much for donating anyway telena um david magruder sean blank and christine trowinski thank you all so much for being a part of this other producers this week are peyton meadows janice hill mandy with no last name hallie smith joseph monroe kim uh frialden hoven she has two patrons uh make sure that you did that right for me kim uh in case you well yeah we don't want to take more than no more than you want to give so that's no luke ross uh kareem musalet rich duffy robert a queen uh a queen is that a q a queen of naga work here a queen i'm not gonna work here anymore beth gould brooks jones j buddy jones james parker jacob whitford christine christine o'shea rebecca carrier or carrier fred woodward brian and nicole brody board man perry holbrook cassandra o'brien sydney craig or is that sydnett it's probably sydney uh i don't know anybody named sydnett uh miranda cross no that is cost kathy with no last name brayden r uh chris nett alexa shoemake not she only makes one maker she only does it one time i make i'll make a listen i'm not a shoemaker over here or anything i only make i made a shoe i make a one shoe taylor zito probably chuck's daughter uh or son who knows taylor's very that's yeah trevor gellart gellert gailert lizzie angel boo doing beau doing uh kate francella fraschella raylin pointer chelsea rodak lindsey douglas danielle mcgahan nicole with no last name kim goodrich danielle g sarah martin chadisha al chadisha josh with no last name slitty with no last name that's gross claiborlin claiborlin with no last name jenna mooney uh andy glosser laura with no last name nancy mercer jessalyn rekinjer uh alice andrews jenna mooney jenna mooney allison with no last name jennifer with no last name christy butler theresa with no last name sean schmitz alicia cole collie frank with no last name brantley daniels becky with no last name sarah hurt kimberly barnett adam seal tim baldwin kimberly deinlein deinlein uh what is it dane lane i said he's on he's on a roll i was he is i was just like rooting you on laura forrest run mme jen walker andrea sinsmeyer weiser kathy roeder jody bocey oj go justin oler oler lorraine with no last name thea with no last name ryan hunley eric stagg robin brown samantha ashby christina s cynthia chapin chapin sean with no last name laura louise cassandra bennett lauren wild wilder yep like uh like gene mary swain rich went uh like the guy from cheers uh maja maya maha rostberg rostberg 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Thank you so much, everybody. It's unbelievable. You beautiful, fantastic bastards. Honestly, we appreciate all that you do for us every goddamn day. Thank you for what you do for us, and please don't snap and kill whole families and tie kids up. We cannot impart that enough onto you. Please don't do that. If you want to follow us, head over to the newly redone ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. There's links to everything, social media, all that stuff. So come out and keep hanging out with us. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Bye.