Skylar Grey + Elliott Taylor | Eminem Hits, Bubble Grunge and WASTED POTENTIAL

But I also was like, I need to figure out a way to make it a living because it's the only thing I know how to do. And I'm a high school dropout. So getting a job is going to kind of be difficult. So I had like reached out to my publisher. And so he just sent me this beat and I wrote the hook of love the way you lie in a cafe. And because I didn't have internet in my cabin. And I think at the first demo I sent back was just like me singing into the microphone on the computer. Wow. Like the built-in mic. Wow. Yeah. And then I sent that and just like garage bands record. Yeah. Garage band love. Yeah, I was just bringing the MP3 in to garage band. Yeah. Record something over it. It's shit vocals. But yeah, so lovely. I happen that way and I sent it off and then I'm up later. It was a number of times. Hello, beautiful people. Welcome to Unfamous, the podcast where we told the untold, unfamous stories of how pop culture happens through the art of collaboration. I am sitting here with two really, really talented, also quite fashionable, chic people as well. And instead of that traditional, weird, awkward part of the podcast where I read your credits in front of you, since this is about the art of collaboration, I use this moment for you to introduce each other to the world and brag about your collaborator to anyone who is lucky enough to be watching this episode. Amazing. Who would like to start? Wow. Oh, man. I'll start. This is Elliott Taylor. Elliott Taylor. He's a country artist, but he is also my, the love of my life. And. Slay. My love, love still exists as the world ends. And we met in 2016 and then we got together in 17. And he had always been making music, but not like professionally, I guess, he would just like write songs and put them on YouTube. I think they're still out there somewhere. Don't look deep down, but you know, I was always doing music. And then I would just like, he'd be picking up the guitar and just jamming out on something. And we like, babe, that's actually really good. Like can we turn that into something and pitch it? You know, and so he, because he came at music from such a fresh perspective. I was so used to working with people who were just so in the mix all the time. And he wasn't. He was just like how to completely fresh. He wasn't jaded at all, you know what I mean? And so his ideas were like really fresh. And so I started like, you know, turning his ideas into things we would pitch. Our first cut was with, um, train, the band train, yeah, of course. Yeah, drops of Jupiter, first song we ever sang together. And then actually that's so weird. Cause the first night that we met, we ended up jamming out and playing drops of Jupiter. And a year later, we write a song for train together. It's like, what, yeah. But yeah, so then he just started getting more and more into music. And now in our house, we have two recording studios. And so on the third floor is mine and on the first floor is his. And we can work simultaneously on different projects and that bother each other. Awesome. But he's so, I love, he's still maintains that like fresh perspective to songwriting. And he's my favorite collaborator because I'm, I'm really shy. Like collaborating with people and doing songwriting sessions and stuff. It's really hard for me to open up. Yeah. But with him, he's always so positive, non judgy and gives me the best feedback. And I love bouncing things off of him. So I was so sweet. I love you. Wow. So yeah, when I met this angel, I was at a grocery store on the produce aisle. And I saw this floating creature had to toe covered in tattoos, see through dress, long blonde hair. And I said, what the fuck is that? And I, and I've never approached anybody like this before. But I just felt like I, I needed to go up to this individual. And I had no idea that you were even a music. I had no idea that you knew my best friend at the time. And I just went up to her and she was carrying a little like seedless watermelon. And I just said, excuse me. Like, can I carry your melon for you? Yes. And I'm really, I'm really thought, well, that didn't come out right and she looked or apparently it came out perfect. Yeah, she looked up and made eye contact for a segment look down. She said, no. And I said, Oh, well, I'm going to get a smoothie. Do you want a smoothie? She's like, no, I'm okay. And I just kept trying. And at that moment, my best friend came up and was like, Elliott, you found Holly. No way. And I thought, oh, shit, perfect. So they know each other. And then for real name is Holly, yeah, just to clarify. Fast forward, like two hours later where, you know, at my, my friend's house, when we're all just jamming out, there's a group of like 30 people there. And Carla was like forcing me. He was like bringing out guitars and like, get on the piano, like, play like. And I started just playing drops of Jupiter on the piano. And then I felt somebody's hand on my shoulder and she like leaned on me and started harmonizing with me. And yeah, then the rest is history. Carla said he had a bunch of one of my best friends. Carla and Davi and Napa, he, he said, I've got like 30 people coming into town from all over the place. We're all going to hang out and she was one of them. And, um, yeah, a couple of days went by and, um, we didn't get each other's number or anything. So he slid into my DMs. Yeah, I said, Carla, what's her Instagram? And then I was like, what the fuck? Yeah. And, um, yeah, that's how he felt. That's how it. Yeah. And I stood in. Scott, they're great. They're letting. Yeah. I mean, yeah, so you're seeing their playing drops of Jupiter. And then the, the woman who wrote, love the way you lie, M&M and Rihanna was harmonizing with you and you had no clue. No clue. Yeah, we don't film actually. We got to track that. Yeah, we do. Yeah, oh, you definitely have to track that. Yeah, yeah, the, okay. So when did the relationship, how long did it take for the romantic relationship to turn into a creative relationship or was it kind of always a part of it? It's kind of always a part of it, but like casually at first. Yeah. You know, it wasn't, he wasn't, he wasn't like, he had a beer brand when I first met him and doing up at your real estate stuff. And so he wasn't like making money at music, but it was just because I was always working on music. And I would always just like hear him, he can't help himself. Like, he picks up a guitar. He starts playing chords and starts singing or he'll just be wandering around singing stuff. And and sometimes he's like, that's so stupid. And I'm like, no, that's really good. You know, the one that went to train, he was just like jamming out on the guitar and was like, I'll be sipping my ties. And he's like, that's stupid. I'm like, no, that's really good. I think that's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We always, I just love to have instruments everywhere. So like we, and throughout our entire house and we have two recordings to do is one on the first floor and one on the third floor and we, we work separately, but then together. But we just try and have a guitar lane in every room or piano in every room or a clarinet. Or a clarinet he racially picked up a clarinet. I don't know why I like flutes, but yeah. But they're just laying around everywhere and we're always fucking around and playing stuff. But one thing I love about early in our relationship, when we started like writing songs together, I wasn't much of a producer at all. Like I, I knew how to record piano and vocal. Yeah. Pretty much. That's it. But then he'd be like, babe, can you like throw some drums on this? Yeah. And I'd be like, no, I don't know how to do that. I'm out of my business. You're like, put a snare on this. But because, because I was so in love with him and obsessed with him, I was like, I want to please him. And so I like started teaching myself how to learn how to make drums on songs. Wow. And so the, the first ones really were bad. But now I'm at a place where I'm like, oh, I'm actually a decent producer like, and he pushed me into that just because of that. Like just from love and me wanting to please him and be like, okay, I'll put some eight of the weights on this. I'll make it bang. Yeah. You know. Is that how you, all of your early cuts, and even your early artists stuff, was it always you at a piano? Was that your, was that your main safe place to write? It was always my safe place. Yeah. But some of the earlier, like, just the, I mean, it gets the hits like left we like, those were written to track. They were okay. Yeah. You got, were you sent the track? How did that process start for you? Yeah. So love the way you lie. I had met Alex the kid on email. Okay. I was living in Oregon and a cabin in the woods. I have one does basically quit the music industry or not quit, but like was on hiatus. Yeah. It was over it. Fair. It's really exhausting. Yeah. Yeah. But I also was like, I need to figure out a way to make it living in music because it's the only thing I know how to do it. I'm a high school dropout. So I had like reached out to my publisher and she introduced me to Alex. So he just sent me this beat. And I wrote the hook of love the way you lie in a cafe and like send it because I didn't have internet in my cabin. And then I sent it back. Wow. Wow. Yeah. I sent that and just like Garage Band's record. Yeah, Garage Band. Love, love. Bring the MP3 in to Garage Band records of the distorted shit vocals. But it's so funny how some of those end up being in the finals sometimes. Yeah, there's just a shitty magic there that you can't, yeah. But yeah, so lovely, I happened that way. And I sent it off and then a month later, I was in a number one song. But that was a track. That was like the first time I had ever written to a track. See, I feel like it's so freeing to sometimes change the way you're really comfortable, right? I started at piano from 15 years old to 30 to 30. Yeah, 32. I wrote every song at piano. And the second I started writing in different ways, it kind of my life changed. Or like on Justin Bieber, sorry, who I was lucky enough to correct with Julian Michaels. Like she hated writing to track. For that situation, to write for Bieber on that album, you had to write to track. Yeah. So we had no choice but to change the way she normally works. And it obviously changed our life. So right, sometimes it's like I used to complain about writing to track because I didn't have enough control. So like change the chords or whatever. Yeah. But then you realize there's something special about the limitations that gives you what you have to work with it. Yeah. And you have to work it within those limitations. And so it's like a different challenge. And it makes you do things you wouldn't normally do. Yeah. And pulls you outside of your comfort zone and it can actually be really beneficial. And freeing. And freeing. Yeah. How did you, when you started playing with it, always guitar around and what was your-- I mean, I was always harmonizing and just singing around. I was just inventing melodies constantly in my head. And I just went up whatever I was doing. But guitar mostly. And then I mean, I'm not trained at all on guitar or piano or anything, but I play all of them. So I just explore and find the notes that I'm looking for and find the things that could fill the harmonies or fill the pockets. And then I just build it from there. But-- You like writing to track or like songs? I love writing to track. Yeah. I do. Yeah. But I'm like, I'm really specific. I can't hear anything until I like to have the mic on. And the headphones ready to rock, because I'm like my first hit on anything is usually my favorite. Yeah. So when people are like, check this track out, I'm like, no, no, don't play it for me yet. Wait, no recording. Yeah, let me just like have a mic on so we can just flow out the gate. Yeah, I am still so terrified of free styling. So when I meet people or get to write with people who just like, no, I don't want to hear anything until I'm recording and free styling see what happens. That to me, that's like a whole other alien superpower that I do not possess. And I don't know if there's a way to learn it. It's just like you either are comfortable free styling or you're not. And I just can't. I'll try it, but I hate it every time. I feel like it's-- If you were alone doing that, but if you're around other people, you feel like a little bit more nervous about freeing up front of people. I haven't written a song alone. It feels like since the '90s. It would be a great experience for you to just load up a track and don't listen to it. Just turn the mic on and a free style it by yourself. OK, I'm going to try it and I'll text you afterwards. I'm going to try. I'm going to try. Yeah. I mean, a lot of times we'll put a track in and we know we kind of heard it for a second. We're like, OK, there's going to be something cool here. But I don't want to influence her melodies. And I don't want to hear hers and then to have that influence mine. So we'll separate. And I'll do a couple of passes. She'll go in the studio. We'll swap. They'll go in the studio, pull up the track, do a bunch of free style passes. And then he's like, OK, your turn. And then I go in the studio. And he leaves. And then I do a bunch of free style passes. And then we sit down and listen to all the takes together. Yeah, I like to go first because I'll see her waveform and it'll influence me. I'm like, oh, she's pushing it there. Yeah, I'll just immediately create a new playlist because I don't even want to see the waveform. Oh my god. Wow, you don't want to be influenced by the waveform. Yeah. That is so funny. A deep dedication to creativity. That is amazing. OK, so bubble grunge. Yeah. What does that mean to you and to both of you because you're working together on this? What does that mean to you? And how does it influence what you do? Well, bubble grunge is the genre name that I gave my new album because I grew up listening to-- I mean, I was born in '86. So most of my childhood was like '90s, you know? 90s pop grunge. And so that's what bubble grunge is to me. It's like a combination of everything from like spice girls to Nirvana. Love. You know? I mean, bubble grunge. Love. And so my album really pulls a lot of inspiration sonically from that time period. Obviously, it's not retro, but it's like nostalgic. And it has the listening to it last night and this morning on a loop, it was really, really beautiful. You guys killed it. Thank you. I think that that genre makes perfect sense. And there is a nostalgia to it, but nothing's on the nose. It's not obvious what you're referencing. It just feels like-- Yeah, I mean, it's just kind of like a mix of everything that has inspired me. There's-- you can probably hear some radio heads, some Fiona Apple, some spice girls. Who was-- Who was your favorite spice girl? Well, we asked the hard-hitting question. I mean-- I was about to start some drama. I was from internet drama. I was, was it scary spice? With the beautiful, huge hair. Yeah, I was heard for Halloween one year. Love. I mean, that good. So that would be your favorite. So without having to pick a favorite. I loved them all. I was a ginger spice. I loved them. I was a deep ginger spice, posh, amazing. Come on. Yeah. Morgan, who created this podcast with me is sporty spice till the day she dies. But I mean, let's be it. You have to be it. You have to be. There was almost a second when Sporty was going to be on the podcast, but scheduling happened. And Morgan was like, I'm about to finally be Starstruck. To me, to me, lesbian icon. Who's not a lesbian? Yeah, but she just-- But she is. She's going to be lesbian icon icon. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god. I wore so many track suits to school. Was there a moment when you guys were making wasted potential that you feel like it all clicked? So you feel like, OK, this is the sound. This is what the project is. Or did it just happen? Or was there? The whole album started when I wrote a song called "Bruz's," which was, I guess, that one leaves going to the Fiona Apple territory. But I needed to get that off my chest. It was like how I felt about my life and my career. And I've always just been super hard on myself and beat myself up. And so I wrote a song about that. But it was like a therapy for me. And once I got that out of my system, I felt like I could have more fun. Yeah. Like, after that, I would try to write darker songs. Because I normally write pretty dark sad songs. It's just kind of my go-to. But after that one, it was so heavy that I just felt like I was depressing myself by writing more depressing songs. I was putting myself under a dark cloud for no reason. And I was just, even in the car driving around, instead of putting on my normal somber playlists, I would be putting on back to listening to spice girls again. I want to feel good. Suddenly out of nowhere, I just want to have fun and listen to fun kind of music. And so that was kind of what instigated me going down the path of the bubble grunge thing. And writing like a song like Motivation, which is a little more upbeat for me. Yeah. It was wild watching that happen because she does lean heavily into that like really heavy song, sad song kind of world. But when you were writing bruises, I remember visually like you were crying consistently while writing the song for days. And I thought, oh shit, where's this going? And emotionally and where is she going in her creative process? And she was completely alone doing that song and needed to be alone. I didn't want to be involved or influencer at all and wanted her to just do it. But afterwards, it was like, I could see just a whole layer of shit. And you were just completely like, ah, and you like wiped off your tears. And you were like, I think I'm done writing sad songs for a long time now. Wow. And it was like a total flip. And she was like pumping spice girls and like a whole different emotional wave came in. And it was, I was super excited to see that. Wow. I've never been like, you know, working with her now and being with her for like 10 years or so now. I've never been more excited to see what she's going to create from this point forward. It's super exciting. How does it, for both of you, when I've never made music with someone I've been in love with? That's never, no, never. And like, how does it, especially when you're writing something so dark, right? When I guess for you, even like when she's writing something so dark, how do you balance like wanting to cheer up the love of your life versus like letting her go on this? creative journey. I don't know if I would be able to do it. I'd be like, I would want to like distract you and be like, let's talk about something fun immediately. Now, as a co-writer, I'm like, let's get dark now. But as the love of your life, I don't know. That's so beautiful that you're able to give her the space to do that, 'cause I don't think I'd have the guts. - Hello, my little un-gameless friends. So, the thing about the algorithm, the un-gameless algorithm, is that she doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it. So, if you follow this podcast, one of the old school YouTubers say, like, subscribe and follow, if you do that for me, then you will help the unfamous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people. So, please do just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things. Bye. - No, I can read her really well now and we've spent so much time together. I mean, we're pretty attached at this point. We, you know, like, when I'm going on a boys trip, I'm like, can she come? (laughing) And vice versa. So, it's like, we're just, we just roll hard together. And so, I know when she's going down a path where I can, I don't, like, I'm very aware that I don't want to influence her on certain things and certain topics or songs that she's working on. I, even when I have an idea or something, I'll just back out and I'm just like, you know, I'm just going to go do something on the ranch. - And he'll wait for me to ask, like, 'cause sometimes I'll just hit a wall. I'll get as far as I can on something and then I'll be like, okay, now I'm stumped and that's when I take it to him. - Yeah, cool. - And then he can-- - Show bounce on me a lot. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I try to do as much as I can by myself to get it, you know, as much out without any influence. And then when I hit a wall, I'm like, okay babe, I need help with this, you know. - No, it's wild, I mean, they're, you know, the creative process is so emotional. - Yeah. - And you go through waves of I suck, too. This is the best thing I've ever done. And that's constantly, right? So-- - They up and down. - Yeah, I notice now at this point, because of the wave that whenever we're in a really low point, I get really excited. So when she's like, I fucking suck, I think I'm going to quit. I'm like, oh fuck, we're on the precipice. I'm like, we're about to have the greatest start coming out, 'cause that's what I know. She's like, when she-- - That was temporary. - Yeah, when she's ready to throw the towel in, I'm just like, all right, just let her like crash. And I just know, like, I don't try and stop. I, in the early on, I was like, no, you can't quit. Like, are you fucking crazy? Like, I was trying to like, pull her back aggressive. I'm such a positive person. I was like, I didn't want her to feel that way. Or to go down that dark road. - Yeah. - But now I know that that's just a part of the journey. - For a process. - You can't have, you know, happiness without experiencing sadness and darkness. And it's the whole balance of light and dark in the world. And so whenever things are really rough, it's a trigger now or flag for me. When shit's going really fucking sideways, I'm like, things are about to be epic. And so just kind of like-- - He is the most optimistic person in the world though, too. - Yeah, when it's just raining and storming, and like, bills are stacking up, but it's all fucked. - Things are about to be great. - There's a lot to do. I'm like, well, shit's about to turn up. Yeah, and I just kind of see that as like a positive flag now. So whenever anything's going dark with her, and she's getting going down her darker road, I'm like, this is great. I'm like, at some point, this is going to flip in a really positive way. - It always does, yeah. - It always does so. - That's right, literally why I wrote the song "Temporary for Eminem." I was, I had, like, writer's block for like a year or something. And I was just beating my head against the wall, trying to write songs. And this one day, I was like, fuck it. I am gonna write a fucking song today, like, whatever it takes. And so I went through all my voice notes. I went through all my drop-box folders, all my ideas, like all my pro-tools sessions, all my lyric notes. And I didn't find one fucking thing that I liked. - Yeah, she was quitting that day. - And I started crying. I was like, I fucking quit. I suck. I can't do, I can't write songs. I'm like, it's like not in me anymore. - Yeah. - And he was like, wait, baby, you recorded an idea on my phone the other day. And I was like, I did. - Yeah. - And it was just a piano riff that I had recorded on his phone. He's like, yeah, let me text it to you. So he text me this piano riff. And I was like, oh, actually, it's pretty good. (laughing) - He had passed away on that one, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - And then I brought it in the pro-tools and with it, 15 minutes, the hook of temporary was done. - Wow. And I wrote the lyric about what I was going through. - Yeah. - About that feeling of this is temporary. 'Cause I do recognize that any time I'm in that dark place, I always come out of it eventually. There's always a light at the end of it all. But, so I wrote temporary about that. Like, this is a temporary darkness, you know? - Wow, yeah. And the voice note is stayed in the track. Like the actual-- - Of the piano. - In the final, it's the piano track. - The piano from his phone. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Wow. - Yeah, super cool. - Okay, so when you're writing these things that feels super personal, whether it's for your artist project, or it's going to end up being sung by whoever, how does it feel when things that are so personal become really public? And I don't ask this in like a way that like, lots of people ask that. I ask in this, it says, I, once I started writing songs for other people to sing, they really have not been about my life at all, for better or worse. But that's just how it's worked out for me. But it seems like from what that so much of what you write is so personal. - It always is. - And then you've written so many massive songs that like, how does it feel when something so personal is given to literally the entire world? - I don't know. I mean, I think it makes it validate my experience or my feeling that I had it, and you know, like whatever darkness I went through, I'm like, okay, I'm glad I went through it because I went over it in the song. And I would have had, you know, I think it's great. - Do you, when you hear your songs out in the world, whether it's a grocery store and Uber or whatever, does it bring you back to what you were going through that made you write it, or does it just become something else? - That's a good question. I think for a period of time, it brings me back. And then after a couple of years, it's just-- - A couple of years. - Yeah. - And then I would, then it doesn't. - How does it feel to be like in the grocery store and brought back to some fucked up moment in life? - I guess it does. Now that I, now that I'm thinking about it-- - Yeah, it's like an nostalgic kickback, yeah, for sure. - If I hear a song of mine playing randomly, it does, it just take me back in time. I have a quick little flashback. - Yeah. - Do you like those flashbacks, or is it weird? - Sometimes, it depends on the flashback. If it's a good memory or a bad memory. - A bad memory. - A very good memory. - Yeah, yeah, you know? - Pants on the song. - Yeah, 'cause I get brought back to when I wrote it. - Yeah. - Almost every time. - I get brought back to a time period of when I wrote it. - Yeah. - And everything that was going on in my life, and the people that I was surrounded by, the relationships I was in. So if I was in a bad relationship, when I wrote that song, I get taken back to that bad relationship, and I don't like that part. - Well, you write so many of your things, at least started alone, and then either bring it to him, or whoever else has been in your orbit. So that in my, 'cause I get brought back to the room with the people I was with. - Interesting. - But you write so much of your stuff, you start alone at least, right? - Yeah, I don't do a ton of collaborations. - Yeah. - Outside of my small circle. - Yeah. - Like, I've done a lot of songwriting sessions that didn't really go anywhere. But what does come, that's positive out of those songwriting sessions, even if it's not a song that day, is relationships. - Yeah. - And I can like kind of, you know, you can't predict who you're gonna have good chemistry with. - Right. - It's just so random. And so some of the people that I worked with on my album, Danny Magic, do you know Danny Magic? I know the name, but I don't know personally best. - But yeah, I started working with him 10 years ago or something when he was Franky's assistant. Or something. - Okay, yeah. - And we just always hit it off. And so he basically, you know, co-produced my whole album. And I just like, you know, when I find people that I really have good chemistry with, I stick with them. - Yeah. - You know, and that's why I'm in them. And I also have done 20, I mean, I don't know, 15 or 20 songs together at this point. - I didn't realize it was that many. I knew it was a lot, but that's crazy. - Well, when you include the songs that he produced on my albums, - Right. - And the songs that we worked with each other on for like, slaughterhouse. - Yep. - If you include all of those. - Of course. - We've touched like the same 15 or 20 songs. - Amazing. - Do you guys, for both of you, can you think back to the beginning of your creative journeys and are there things that you look back on that like, make you want to cringe, but you're grateful because it led you to something better or bigger or informs your artistic journey. - Oh, I have so many cringes, memories. - Yeah, the sheer volume of musical theater I did. (laughing) Say honey, say no. I used to cringe on musical theaters so hard, I loved it so much as a kid, and now I'm back to loving it again, and embracing it like deeply because it, I wasn't good at it. I was not a good musical theater performer at all. I thought I was. Looking back at random videos, my mom has, or whatever, I'm like, oh my god, I looked insane. And I was trying to be burn it at Peter's, but I was at a 14 year old homosexual. It wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't the bad thing. I think I need to see this. But now I look back and I'm like, think fucking god, I was such a cringy musical theater. Because lyrics are my favorite part of writing, and I think musical theater, whether you love it or hate it, you can't deny that it's music that is story driven. For sure. And so I'm like, think fucking god, I was a theater geek, because that's why I'm so good at writing lyrics, because I was so obsessed with songs, that push the story forward. Well, and what's weird is like, you know, we go on so many different tours or show hop on with different people and we're traveling around everywhere. And every show, every tour I've ever been on, I'm like looking around backstage and I'm like, this is just musical theater. It basically is. I mean, it's all show business. It's all just musical theater out here. Yeah, it's a trip. Yeah, it's just, we just have cooler clothes or like a different name or, you know, yeah, better stylist. And no, it's, I can't remember who it is, but it's a rock band that's massive whether it was, let's say it was you two or the Rolling Stones. Yeah, who said, oh, Madonna, up to it for all of us, that she turned pop tours, rock tours, whatever you want to call it. She turned it into theater. Yeah. And now none of us can just show up and play our song. Right. We have to do a fucking put on a show to the Queen Madonna turned rock and roll into theater. And I love that for us. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's great. It's fun. Yeah. Are there any specific, you know, we hope this podcast is people to learn about the creative journey and grow from it? Are there any specific cringe moments for you that you learned from? I mean, I used to sing with my mom. Awesome. Like you're like a group. Yeah. Yeah. We were called generations. Yes, we were generations. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Make sense. And we used to sing songs called things like we are the colors of the rainbows. My grandma slid down the mountain. My grandpa snoring. Yes. Like out in public. Never smoked tobacco. Yeah. These were some song titles. I had only ever written one song with the family members, my sister-in-law, but she lived with us for many years with my childhood because I'm the youngest of four. My brothers are much older. So she lived with us. She was basically a sister, even though she was sister-in-law. And we wrote a song that goes, "A home, oh, we go. A lesbian, our way. I love you. You love me. Home of sexuality. I was 11." Which means she was like 22, 23, and she was definitely trying to let me know that it was okay. Yeah. That I was the -- But it went over my head. I was like, "Oh, we made it a funny song." I mean, I knew what it was about. I was 11. I understood what we were singing about, but did not understand how the subliminal messaging that happened to me was to give me that. Yeah. And that song, I still sing it at least twice a month. Is there one of you in your mom's songs that comes to you all the time? And can you give us a preview? I don't know why they come out at the most random time. Well, because if there's a subject that comes up in life, where I'm like, "Oh, that reminds me of a song. I'll start singing the song that it reminds me of." I love is this the same sky? Oh, but that one's so beautiful. That one's not cringy, though. Yeah. So that one's good. That one's kind of as cringy. It's the first song I ever wrote. I was eight. Love. And I was in a swimming pool in Hawaii on vacation with my mom, but my parents were divorced. And so I was in the swimming pool looking up at the moon, and I wondered if my dad could see the same moon that I was looking at him being back in Wisconsin. So is this the same sky that hangs over the ocean? Is it the same sky that's over Wisconsin? These are my lyrics. Pretty awesome rhyme, though. Yeah. That's a pretty awesome half rhyme. Yeah. So that, you know, that's that's a very profound thought. Yeah. For an eight-year-old. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Much deeper than a Homo We Go Leszy. Can we ask every all of our guests this same question, which is what is a song or a concert or some piece of music that ruined your life? In the sense of you heard this song, you saw this video, and it's like, oh, fuck. Now I'm a musician forever. It has, this has ruined my life. I must make music. Positive way. But in the sense of like the music business is pure hell. So this piece of art ruined your life of like, now I must be a part of this shit show of business because this song was so good, or this video was so special. Holy shit, that's a hard question because I just, I started writing music so young that I don't even have memories of getting into the music industry. Yeah. Because I started when I was six, performing. Wow. So I'm like, wow. I'm trying to remember, or can just be the first thing that was like, oh my god, I want to write a song. It can be less than anything. Yeah. Just like the, yeah. I mean, I say it, songs that something that ruined your life in a positive sense. Like for me, it was realizing when I heard that Debbie Gibson wrote her own songs as like a seven-year-old fan of her. And she was 16, and I heard there was a 16-year-old girl who wrote her own songs. And I was like, oh, fuck. This is my calling. Yeah, got it. I have to say, for me, probably when I first heard Stan, Eminem and Dito. Wow. I heard that in the Uber last night, and I literally said, I don't think I've heard this song in 15 years. Yeah. But when I look, I just, it struck me. Wow. Where I was like, I love that combination of the soft female vocal with the, the hip hop and the dark storytelling. Yeah. And I think I subconsciously manifested doing that at some point. From the time I was 13, definitely manifested that. To 10 years later, when I actually got to work with him. Wow. But you know, it was like always in their bubble, and I was like, I'm going to do that one day. Wow. What blows my mind about that song, too, is that he turned her verse into his chorus. Yeah. Yeah. Because her chorus goes into those bright major chords, which is amazing. But the fact that like, whether it was him or producer or both, took her very minor, dark verse and made that a chorus. When I was hearing it last night, that really blew my mind. I was like, wow, that's so smart. Also, that was such an important song to you. And then you ended up becoming such a part of his creative journey. And you're each other's creative journeys. Yeah. If you're thinking about a song that ruined my life in the best way, it's probably that one. Yeah. I love that. Do you have one? You know, I was sitting here thinking about it. There's a memory that jumps into my mind that I think kind of catapulted me and did just falling in love with with wanting to chase the dream. And I remember I was really, you know, five or six years old. And I was at my my grandparents house. And my my grandpa was just playing Elvis just on repeat on the on the TV. And it was these old videos. And he's just doing those dance moves and just hitting the guitar and vibing. And I just remember that it just stuck with me. And I just wanted to be in that world so badly. And and I think like, you know, I think that little bit of that character like stuck with me for sure. Yeah. I mean, it kind of doesn't really get better than Elvis. Yeah. No. Yeah. No. Right. But I feel like it would be a good time to tell your story about how you got put up on stage. Well, when you were. Yeah. So my since this is what happens to you interviews with your partner. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like what drew me into to singing and performing. I was I was like, I was six or seven. And my sister wanted to get into musical theater. And there was this theater company up where we lived and up way up north and northern California called Blasco theater company. And so my mom took her to go to the show and they brought me along with with of course. And I love where this is going. Keep going. Yeah. And so, you know, the first first act goes and I'm like, I just remember being like, I want to be in this. And I wouldn't stop. So I kept pulling on my mom. Sure. And they tell this story all the time. They're like, you were just relentless. Like, what might I want to be in this? I want to be in this. So my mom said, fine. So she took me at at intermission, took me to the director at Eddie Blasco. And was like, if you want to be in it, you ask them. No. And so I went up to him and I pulled on his hand and I was like, I want to be on the show. And he's like, you want to be in the show? And I And so he said, "Come with me, kid." And he just took me away from my family and brought me back stage, took me to the girls' green room and said, "Put them in some makeup, put them in a costume and put them on for the second act." And I just went up there and was like holding somebody's hand on stage. And then that triggered like nine years, 18 different shows. Wow. Yeah, from like Greece to how to succeed in business without really trying to do it. Who'd you play in Greece? I was Vince Fontaine for the first round because I was like eight. And then I eventually moved to Kaneki, which was, you know, the classic. But amazing. Yeah, Big River, all of those. Also, it's just shout out theater again. It was special it is. It was the best, yeah. It's if it wasn't for like community theater. And I don't know how I would have ever made a friend. I don't know how I would have like-- Honestly. It corrupted you early in a good way. I mean, we were in that group and there was 18, 20 year olds when you were like seven, eight, nine years old. So you were learning about everything really quickly. Yeah. But it was a good exposure and good exposure to different levels of music and art. And it was like, it felt like a family always. Yeah. Yeah. You know, be backstage with the, or be the crew. Yeah. You make creating art with a group of people. It was a perfect conversation for a podcast about the art of collaboration. Creating art with a group of people, there's no way to create a quicker emotional bond. Yeah. Then like creating something that you're going to put in front of an audience. Yeah. Or release into the world if it's a song. Like there's no quicker way to like know if you love or hate somebody than to make art together. For sure. For sure. You learn real quick. Yeah. Or to like when you're on tour, I don't living on a tour best with people. I remind we have musical theater family. Oh, completely. When my band opened for Lady Gaga for like 2009 to 2011, like a really long time. And the dancers in her tour became our best friends in seconds. Yeah. There was just like this immediate theater bond, even though my band members were all instrumentalists. Not theater kids. After two days with dancers, you would have sworn they grew up in the community there. Yeah. There's really something about it. This is similar. And you're all about to get on stage together. There's just this crazy, beautiful bond. And the pre, the pre stage, like little rituals you do and a little gathering and the talks and the pump ups. Yeah. It's the best. Yeah, that's great. Listening to your new amazing music, the song where the waste of potential line comes from. The motivation. I find it so awesome for you to like, I don't think I've ever heard someone write a song about that. I'm sure someone has because we've all written a million of them. But like, I've never heard that specific thing of like wasted potential. Yeah. How I just, it's a very dry. Yeah, it's a dry humor. But obviously there's a very honest at the same time. So like to Alice, what made you go, I'm going to write a song, which is a very active thing to do about my inactivity. Right. How do you land at that conclusion? I started with the chorus. Yeah. And it just came to me when I was standing outside the vet's office waiting for my dog to get surgery. And most of my music comes to me randomly. It's not like I'm in a session. Right. So I was just standing out there, you know, kicking around in the grass. And then suddenly, this like melody and lyric just came out of nowhere. You know how that happens sometimes. We're not even thinking about it. Yeah. And so that chorus kind of just happened. And I didn't even think about it. Yeah. And then when I thought about it, what does this mean? What I'm saying, I was like, Holy shit, I could write a whole story based on this gem that was sent to me from the muses. Yep. You know. And so then I started writing the verses to go with that chorus that I didn't technically write. It just came. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so then I started writing the verses and wanted to just give more detail about like what it means to. Want to be super successful, but not really having the motivation to do it. I mean, I am someone who I think motivation is for sure my greatest skill. And then the talent comes second and. Yeah. So someone who is so naturally, I'm just so interested because of someone who you're so naturally gifted. I think I like forced myself into talent through through motivation. I really did. And I'm proud of that. Yeah, I really, I really like just work harder than his healthy or. Yeah. Or natural or sane. And so just listening to that song like really blew my mind in such a beautiful way of like this brilliant songwriter artist who has written such successful songs. But say maybe there could have been well, I just was looking back at my life being because I just turned 40. Welcome to your 40s. It's really fun here. Actually, I'm enjoying it. It's a blast. Yeah. I was so scared to turn 40. I was depressed about it. You feel more free and more. But I, yeah. I feel more confident and like also like giving less bucks and stuff. Yeah. Having more fun. Yeah. But you know, when I was about to turn 40, I started getting a little depressed and I was like, man, I wish I would have made it a lot farther in my career. Like I thought I would have. When I was younger and like looking into my future and my chasing my dreams, I thought I'd be. Somewhere else like beyond where I'm at. And so I was like thinking about it and like, what went wrong? Like, what did I do wrong? And then I realized everything that went wrong was completely my fault. That is such a powerful realization. Yeah. And so then I was just like, oh, fuck it. Like is what it is. And I just wrote a song about all of the things that I basically have done wrong. Like missing opportunities because I was being lazy or just like not wanting to go on tour because I want to stay home. And it's nice to be home. Yeah. You know, just like that. So I like listed out all of that stuff. And then, you know, our IP to my waisted potential was a lyric in that. And then I was like, oh, that's a great album title. Yeah. It's an amazing album title. Okay. So then how does it while writing that song and coming thinking about all those thoughts? Like, how does that just wasted potential make you? What does that make you feel? Does that feel like, oh, fuck, I fucked this up or like, no, this was. No, because I have to accept it. I mean, it is what it is. Like I said, like, I have to accept the fact that that's what happened. And I dropped the ball here and there. And I did, I did do a lot of great things too. So I am proud. Unbelievable shit. And you have such a cool life. You don't live in LA. You're not doing a million sessions a day to try to like achieve something that someone else decided to success. Right. Right. I am in so many ways. So jealous of your journey. I wish I could like fucking chill. You know, I think about that sometimes too, because I'm just like, I could have gone down the road. Like what say I did have all that motivation and decided to stay home. And decided to stay in LA and do all the sessions that I hated. And like push it and got to the place where I felt like the level of success that I expected or wanted when I was younger. What would that even look like? Yeah. And then I'm like, looking at my life now. And I'm like, I live in Napa Valley with a love of my life on a ranch. We have a vineyard. We literally like wake up and feed animals and hang out and make music in our recording studios and eat the best food in the fucking world. And like, it's honestly a dream. Yeah. But it's not the dream that I had planned for myself when I was little. Right. Because I didn't even know that that was an option. Yeah. Or that that reality existed out there. Yeah. So now when I think about it, I'm like, wait a second. It's actually pretty fucking good. Like what we got going on. I am super proud. Yeah. Um, I'd rather be doing that than living in, you know, LA and. But it's, it's a common theme with people who are really talented and successful to not feel like they've made it yet. Or you always want more to always feel like they job the ball. I mean, if you're, if you're, if you have that hunger, that's why you're successful or why you're pushing farther, I think it's like totally normal to be hungry all the time and to, you know, feel like you've missed out. And that triggers you to want to do more. And I want to keep pushing. I mean, I think if you're like, I did it, then you kind of, you know, you kind of fall off. Yeah. You should just, you stop. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So why you see people with like nine number one albums, they want 10. It's like, they never feel like they can get there. Never enough. Yeah. That kind of like, it's, it's, if you can find a way to just be okay with living in that hunger, then, you know, you'll keep going. Absolutely. I love the way you phrase that. If you can find a way to be okay with living in that hunger. Yeah. So anyway, it's just sort of reshape my hunger. Like I'm really, I've, I've, I want to keep having hits. But I want them to be songs that I'm deeply proud of. Yeah. Being lucky enough to co-write chapels, good luck, babe, and have a hit that I'm so deeply proud of musically, emotionally, lyrically, what it means socially has really changed. Like, okay, just don't need every random hit anymore. I want things that I can go, yeah, I fucking wrote that. Yeah. And it's, but do you write the hunger's never going to go away? Yeah, yeah. But it's like, how can I reshape the hunger to be a little bit healthier? Yeah. keep myself challenged. Yeah. What interested you in being is an AI voice companion? Is that the? Yeah. So it's a little doll. It's a deer. It's a deer. It's like a baby deer. So it's a fun. And I was asked to be the voice of it. So it's basically like Siri on your iPhone. But instead of a phone, it's a little stuffed animal that talks and wiggles at Siri. And it's embedded with like AI. So kind of like a chat GPT or something. So you talked to it and and you know, it has like a mind of its own basically. Wow. But it's my voice. And I thought it was just, I mean, AI in general to me. I know it's controversial. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. That's why I think it's interesting. Like we have to talk about it. Yeah. And I think there's obviously like needs to be the laws put in place to protect people and all that stuff. And I think that that's happening. People are working on that. But I also see it as another tool, you know. How did for the for the deer? Is it a deer? You said? Yeah. So cute. For a fun. How did you like go and record a bunch of your speaking voice? Yeah. They just use 10 hours of like vocal training. So basically I would just read, read scripts. Wow. For 10 hours. Obviously not all at once. Right. Like an hour a day. Wow. And then yeah, you train the train it. So fucking crazy. Yeah. So crazy. I just thought it was really interesting. And also just what drew me to that project specifically is like when I was a kid, I felt kind of like a loner. I didn't really feel like I could talk to anyone about anything serious. Yeah. You know. And I found even now like I feel more free to talk to like chat GBT than human being sometimes. Yeah. If it's something that's like really scary to talk about. And so I think giving people this opportunity to have something to like get their feelings out and talk to something is a positive thing. Okay. And every episode we play a game called gag or drag gag means you love it. Like oh gag amazing. Drag means you hate it. Drag. I don't want it. Welcome to Galingo 101. Okay. Wait. Wait. Gag is you love it. Gag is you love it. Gag is you love it. Yeah. And it's it's it's it's you come exactly. But it's now it's become a positive. All right. Guys. Oh, I love it. I love it. So amazing. I'm gagging. Yes. And you hate something you drag it. It's terrible. Gag or drag reference tracks leaking demos leaking drag drag. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I always feel like it's always so especially songs that you write for other people. Then like the comments just get so fucking weird and nasty and fighting over who was better. The demos like the writer or the artist. Yeah. It's a it's a drag for me. It's unless it was intentional. Yeah. Sometimes we make leak that. Let's leak it like a little just to give a taste or something. I mean, if you're the artist and you need your own time, I think that's a different the other way in no way. Yeah. Yeah. Gag or drag being asked to write specifically for sync. That's a hard one because it's hard. It depends what sync. It depends the sync. But I actually enjoy writing songs for film and TV a lot because it's kind of like a fun new challenge to like write something based on a storyline. Yeah. And an emotion that needs to be getting it got across. But what the the drag part is about it is that most of the time you get you put all this work into it and then it's like I don't take the song. And then you have this series. And then you have this like we're like cinematic song that like what else are you going to do with it? Yeah. It was so specific for it. Yeah. So that's the drag part. So that's kind of like gag soundtrack. Yeah. I feel like you must have your music is so naturally cinematic that I feel like songs that were released without the intention for sync have probably been synced a lot, right? I wish they were synced more. Really? Yeah. Okay. Putting it out in the universe. Yeah. Yeah. Sync more skydower great songs. Yeah. I mean, I've done some big movie stuff. Yeah. Venom, big entitled. Yeah. We did rock them out together. Oh, wow, cool. Fast and furious. Need for speed. Wow. Suicide squad. She says. So you're the queen of sync. Oh yeah. Oh, one. Just so you know, that's a lot. Yeah. That's amazing. But she still wants more. Cinematic syncs are different. Yeah. Film sync versus like one 800 Empire shit. You know, like. But all those are film sync. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm talking like commercials are like small like a security company brand sync or something like that. Yeah. That's all like. Yeah. Okay. gag or drag artists pretending they don't have songwriters. What do you mean? Artists taking credit for songs they didn't actually write. Oh drag. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's um. It's so I think it's so odd that it's really happening a lot. Yeah. And it only really happens in our business because no one is mad at Meryl Streep because she didn't write her script. No. She still acts at her ass off. Right. But for some reason in the music business, it's like if you don't do it all. Yeah. Someone on the internet is going to be upset with you for it. We're like, no one's mad that Leonardo didn't also direct the movie. Yeah. You know, it's such an all-in-one makeup. Yeah. Nobody cares. They just like. It's moving good. It's the song good. Like they don't give a shit. They don't give a shit. But who does give a shit is the people behind a getting credit for what they actually did do. Exactly. And they also think too for songwriters, it's really hard to advocate for ourselves if we don't get proper credit and a platform. It's really hard to convince the government that we need to be paid better when everyone thinks that like so and so didn't actually for sure need us there. Yeah. Okay, gag or drag. And I know the answer because you talked about it already. But I'm going to ask anyway, gag or drag, demo vocals with bad quality being the perfect emotion. And so they're used in the final product. Oh, I mean, I don't know if that's a gag or drag type of question, but I think it's fine. Like I a lot of times will use. I'll try to beat a vocal and I can't. Yeah. And it's like the first one I did was just have the right emotion to it. Yeah. And it is what it is. I remember I did a song called Kill for You on one of my albums that I had Eminem produce and feature on. And my original garage band distorted vocals ended up being some of the main chorus vocals because I tried to beat it. And he was just like it doesn't have the same character. Wow. Yeah. Well, the problem with demos is you the only time you really created demos when you get to a point working on song, we're like, oh, I got something. And then once you have that feeling, that emotion, you, you know, you print out a balance or something and then you start sending it around. Then you're listening to it, thinking of writing psych and verse or hug or bridge or whatever. And then you've heard it so many times that you get so sucked into that version. Yeah. For sure. I mean, it's, I'm working on an amazing animated musical right now. It's been announced. I can say it's it's Coco Mellon, the musical or nothing to Coco Mellon is, but it's like YouTube show turned Netflix show for like two year olds, but the movie we're trying to it's trying to elevate everything. It's like nursery rhymes with these crazy visuals on YouTube. That's like a kid phenomenon. Wow. But now they're making a proper animated musical. And that demo experience is so interesting because it's a song that I'm used to just hearing one co-writer sing the whole song. And now I'm recording like six to ten characters on that one song. I'm so used to hearing one person sing. Yeah. So you have to kind of break your demoitis and pull yourself out of it. It's really challenging. I'm like, well, and all the singers we have on the movie are amazing. But it's like, oh, I'm so, I've been listening to this now for seven months, if not longer. Some of the songs I've listened to for a year with one person singing. And now all of a sudden I have to understand how to emotionally navigate ten people. That's that's crazy. That would be so challenging. It's such a, I'm really enjoying the challenge, but it's I'd be lying if I said it was easy. It's fucking hard. Yeah. Okay, gag or drag labels asking for something sad, but uplifting. We're going to write this question obviously based on your music of like do labels continue to ask you for like this. I mean, I just feel like it's not even labels movies do this too. Where they put all this stuff in the brief that like it's contradicting. And then you and then you hear the song, they end up picking. I'm like, that had nothing to do with your brief. Like, are you guys sure you know what you want? That happens all the time. Every brief we have to get on the phone and like go through it with them. Yeah, I always feel like and I think it's like great advice for people watching who are trying to do do this amazing insane job of like getting on the phone and trying to people who aren't fellow musicians like really trying to break down. What is it that you're asking for me? Because music is a language and if you don't speak our language, it's so hard. We're speaking two different languages, right? So I think the getting on the phone is actually amazing advice and a lot of times they'll say something on that call that could be the the hook line or that little one yeah that you know title track or whatever yeah you'll use and then you're like oh I get what you're actually you know I can understand it in my language. Well and you know a lot of times those directions come from people who are really talented at a lot of things as it pertains to business. Morgan's background is in marketing so that's where yeah yeah I've worked with like a lot of like conglomerates and so a lot of these notes for creatives come from people who are so talented a lot of things but they are not the creatives so they're giving creative directions to creative people and I think the people who end up collaborating the best in that situation and people who are willing to say like okay this is a starting point I don't really know how to express like emotionally what we need creatively what we need here's the start but then give it to the creative people to let them take the reins and like dig out those emotions and really drive the creativity and then it goes to shit when they start to micromanage yeah yeah just like helicopter parent like the whole thing yeah it's it's always funny to get those notes from those people because like at the start it's just like what and then you as the creative have to completely decipher it and break it down yeah like this is actually what you need yeah yeah yeah people who don't understand the art form trying to micromanage it is really it's this struggle it's really strong what do you what do you do in struggling situations how do you get through it um what I do is I just say okay I'm gonna give it my best shot and then if it gets rejected it is what it is move on don't spend too much time on it yeah yeah because I used to slave over that shit like I try to please everyone yep and then I would I would spend like a month making this song perfect for whatever I remember I did that I wrote a song for the Cinderella movie that they had it on hold for a month and I was they were sending it back to me micromanage tweaking tweaking tweaking tweaking tweaking change the speed it up add guitars do this and then at the end of the day they ended up not using it right and I'm like I could have written so many songs right in that time period that like would have actually done something and now I have this crazy musical theater Cinderella song that like I am never gonna use for any fucking thing else yeah and I just feel like I wasted a month of my life on it and so now I'm like okay I'm just gonna take first thought best thought based on whatever information I'm given cool give it the best attempt and then move on with my life yeah yeah if they use it great if they don't fuck it at a certain level you can get yourself to like a kill fee on those things right yeah but I also think like like to your point spending too much time time trying to make something so like bang already is it could be a mistake as opposed to just like let's spend 15 minutes put that voice note on a track put a little beat to it put it on click and then just send it off yeah and just see get the gut reaction out of the gate because a lot of the a lot of these supervisors and people they they know enough about music and they're so immersed in it that they can see the vision yeah even if it's not like you know radio ready yep so it's just like get get a response quickly and then they'll be like yes dive into that or know that concept sucks let's move on and I found that like the faster you respond to stuff like that and the sooner you said something in which I'm bad at but if I was giving advice yeah sooner since the end the sooner you have a chance to make them fall in love with that and then they can't everything else they hear after that point they're like oh I just going back to this one that I fell in love with first yeah that's creative advice yeah that's the when you if they come back to something and they're like okay do this do this do this how do you know for yourself when it's time to like I'm not doing those changes either you want it or you don't how do you set those boundaries for yourself at this point I will just be like I'm gonna hand this off to somebody else to do these you get into a pretty sure and let them run it yeah and let them I mean that's actually really smart so I don't send more of my time on it right you wrote the heart of it the most yeah yeah I love obviously if there's like a lyric change or something like that of course but if it's production changes yeah I hand it off cool um to wrap it up what piece of advice about the art of collaboration uh or what what skill about the art of collaboration do you wish you would have learned sooner that maybe you can give to somebody else to learn right now I mean for me it's always been a struggle to collaborate with new people in the room because I'm so shy and um you just have to be not afraid to just fucking be stupid and say stupid just sing stupid lines sing bad melodies you have to be willing in in collaboration to just like you know just send it yeah um it's almost like I took like an acting improv class once and that was so good for me really really got me out of my shell in environments where I was uncomfortable yeah to just like be like I'm not afraid to be stupid come across so stupid and cringe right now yeah you know that to me um I wish I had learned earlier did you take that improv class just to try something or was it hoping to like enhance your musical creativity I wanted to act I there was a time period where I was like interested in that yeah adding that to my um actually I did get just cast in a movie yeah first movie let's go amazing yeah but um but then when I started to take in that class I realized that it was just good for me in general yeah um to get more out of my shell even in conversation with people and in music and collaboration um yeah just being such an introvert it was like a challenge and a really healthy a really healthy thing for me to do I love I mean obviously now you're in a movie so the the acting classes are moving towards that specific art form but I really love the idea of pushing ourselves into other art forms even to inform our main art form yeah yeah that's actually probably very uh I just I'm it's never gonna come out but I just like started writing a book like fiction not like a memoir or anything just because I wanted to do something an art form that wasn't a job yeah just like have fun at something else and I I find it already informing my songwriting are sure yeah I think when I first started going into a bunch of sessions I remember just like the kind of standard play was everybody would meet up with the studio you walk into the studio and it's like kind of dark and he's like hey hey what's up everybody's trying to play cool and shit and then it's like who's gonna pick up the instrument first or who's gonna play some stuff and I think it's just like so like cold going into that that way and so um I I like to just try and do something completely not music related first so like when we have people come up to like work with us at the ranch we'll just like we'll go like hey like let's just go ride some ATVs let's go kick it for a minute go you know go shoot some kinds of the shooting range like do something different yeah play with some animals you know just learn about each other and kick it yeah and just and that'll start to warm each each other up and start talking about things you love songs you love other stuff and then start talking about the project outside of the studio yeah and then let's roll in and that point you're warmed up you're all kind of know each other your homies at that point yeah and it allows you to kind of break down those walls and I feel like your positivity must be such a he's the best icebreaker for me yeah that's another thing because he's more extroverted than me way more and he's so positive and so friendly and I've learned a lot from him in that regard I've become way friendlier since knowing him no we're we're about she's like you know when you see those storm clouds and then the rays coming through it's like you know the light I'm the storm yeah we work together but I like to bring him to every session I do now because because he is such a great icebreaker and he makes everybody feel comfortable yeah including me in the room you know yeah no I think positivity is such an important part of getting a piece of art across the finish line someone has to cheerlead and because people in this industry artists there were so sensitive right and we always need like to know if what we're doing is good like somebody needs to be like that's fucking great yeah because if nobody's saying that in the room we're like is this suck you know like do I suck yeah always like thinking about it and he's so positive he's like yeah fuck yeah that's great and he's pumping everybody yeah yeah and I say I play that role but I actually mean yeah no I keep it real like I'm like no no no no no let's run it again yeah I love to get excited I think it's so fun but even with stuff things good a lot of times people don't say that it's good they don't speak up and so then you're just questioning it all the time yeah well we invented this thing called moment awards where you know because it's like everybody works towards like a Grammy or like a diamond or like you're all working towards these like awards that other people give you but the best fucking moment is when and it could be just a freestyle riff or core progression with the melody and you know when it happens when you're like oh we got it yep and you have it's not even done it's not even produced out it's not even written it's not even the line might not even be there but you're like we fucking got it and when you take off running down the house or like sliding and you just know in at that moment we're like that's we won we already won yeah we take that one and so what we used to like we don't really do this anymore but we say it but we used to like any time there was like a moment like that, we would write it down a little post it. And be like, the moment when we came up with the line XYZ, that was a moment award. He got this like high from that moment. And you could fill your house a moment of words, bro, you're violent. Yeah. That's definitely the best way to end the episode. That is great fucking advice. Celebrate those little moments. The creative moment. Yeah. That's the award that really matters. Well, it's a chain reaction. So if you're celebrating small wins, the universe is like, oh, you're winning. So let me just keep feeding you bigger wins and different wins. And it just triggers. And you're feeding yourself towards the bigger win because you're celebrating the little vibration. Yeah. But also, but a creative win is actually huge win. That's the biggest one because that's why we do it. There's no fucking chart. If you don't get that creative moment award, I love it. Amazing. Thank you, ball. Thank you. So, thank you. Thank you so much, love. Watch unthingness on Spotify. Subscribe for no ads. I'll see you there.