Skinwalker Ranch Biologist Breaks Silence - Ben Woodruff | DEBRIEFED ep. 90

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Must be present in certain states. Visit prizepix.com for restrictions and details. You had to sign some NDAs about a lot of this information? Yes. Some of the things I can loosely talk about, like seeing a UFO on the ranch is commonplace. You had alluded to government involvement, limited government involvement, or at least interest still in the ranch. Have you witnessed any of that? They told me when I started, they said, hey, just be aware. It's possible that, you know, you might have the government listening to your phone calls or checking your emails. So just be careful what you say. We get our phones hacked while we're on the ranch. You'll just be sitting there and all of a sudden something opens up your phone and it's like going through everything. No way. Oh, yeah. That happens to everybody on the ranch. But I do also think that some of the big stuff is held back on a more governmental level. You think there's like national security implications? Yeah, absolutely. Really? Absolutely. So you're saying that the phenomenon is obviously aware on some conscious level. It behaves that way. Of what your intention is. And it knows ahead of time. On daylight cameras, a UFO shows up. There's a cow in the shade underneath and buckles and dies. UFO goes away. They brought me in, I don't know, a few weeks, a month later. And that thing had contorted in what we call the dinosaur death post. Normally a mammal, when they die, they go into the fetal position. We found a skunk and it looked like a taxidermy skunk. We documented it there for three years. It was untouched. It didn't rot. It didn't disintegrate. For three years? Three years. Is that? That's impossible. That's impossible. From your own personal knowledge and your own personal speculation, what's in the mesa? How would you like to win an all-inclusive trip to one of my live shows? Well, that's exactly what I'm offering. For the next seven days. 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Go to area52.shop for your chance to win an awesome trip hanging out with this guy. Welcome, Ben Woodruff. So, Ben, you've been part of the sort of Skinwalker legacy as far as the television show goes, but also behind the scenes doing a lot of the biological testing. Yes. Namely, experiments with birds as well and just looking at the land. I mean, we're going to talk about so many different facets of this fascinating geographical area that's been enigmatic to say the least in that I think so many people are really. I think so many people are really invested in, partially, I think mainly due to the television series, but also the books, the lore, the stories, the hitchhiker effect, the cattle mutilations, the tie to Bob Bigelow. You know, there's so much history here. This is a mecca or at least another sort of Bermuda Triangle in the UFO sphere. So I want to thank you for coming all the way down from Utah today and welcome. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be out. Great. Can't wait to get into some of this stuff. I've been biting my tongue. We went out for breakfast this morning and I was, you know, kind of like pulling my punches. I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to get through all the things that I wanted to ask you. But for viewers at home that might be sort of introduced to this topic perhaps a little more recently, can you give us a general sort of gestalt on what is Skinwalker Ranch? So I guess, oh, you would say it's an area of high strangeness. But that's a pretty nebulous term. So it has a history going back thousands of years. The native people in the land there, the Native American tribes going way back, have a rich history of very anomalous things from portals opening up to, you know, Skinwalkers themselves. The term Skinwalker is actually a Navajo term, Diné, the Navajo tribe, the Diné tribe. And it is kind of come to evolve to be a broader thing. Anything weird, anything strange. Anything anomalous, say, oh, it's a Skinwalker. But that's not the origins of it. But the ranch itself has had, since ancient times, it's had strange things. It's had prehistoric animals appearing, which doesn't, I'm just reporting what's been said. It's had, you know, UFOs and well-documented, at least since the 1990s. But people even much earlier going back, all kinds of strange things. You know, like I said, portals opening up. Poltergeist activity. Poltergeist, ghost activity. Mutilation. Mutilations. Cattle mutilations. And beings, people seeing beings and hearing voices, speaking many different languages. So, a wide range of things. And then the government got involved in the 90s and has really been involved ever since. They're not officially now, but they still are. Well, so, involved, they were involved initially with NIDS or, you know, the scientists that were there looking at it. Namely, you know, you had Bob Bigelow. You had Hal Puthoff. You had a lot of these sort of heavy hitters in this area looking at this place, buying the farm, first of all, or the property off of the family who had it there previously, who had all these anomalous things happen to them. And then, out of interest, you know, Bob Bigelow, I think, was funded for this? Yeah, partially funded. Partially funded? There was some, Senator Harry Reid got some funding for it. And so, it was researched, you know, by the government, government contracted. And then, eventually, they took over completely. The Shermans were still living on the ranch at first. And eventually, the government completely took over through the 90s and early 2000s. And there's a lot of things that, you know, people who were on those early teams, they allude to. But I think there's a lot that we, the current team, have not been told. But all the information back then, it was all analog. It was like our ability to capture data has exponentially grown since. And so, what we're doing now, I think, far exceeds what was done back then. I don't know because we don't have all of that data. But from the sound of it, you know, I mean, if you're just having VHS that you're recording things with compared to now, you know, where we have, you know, everything from mass spectrometers to, you know, LiDAR that we can shoot through things and drones. I mean, you know, digital footage. It's incredible what we're capturing now. Do you think that there is some merit to capturing it in an analog way, though? Because it seems… It seems like the phenomenon itself messes with things that are digital. I think it does, but I hate saying this, but I have to say it. The ranch operates as if it is self-aware, as if it has a consciousness. Maybe it does. Even if it doesn't, it operates that way. Kind of like genetics. Genes operate as though we say, oh, this is the genetic motivation. Well, genes, as far as we know, don't have a motivation, but they operate in a way that they do. So we phrase it the ranch. Whether it's actually self-aware or not, it operates as though it does. It appears to be. And what I see is that during the Bigelow era, it was kind of given a little friction, and then it kind of died down. And then during this new era, it gave friction at first, and we gave friction back, and some rough things happened in the beginning. And then it was kind of like, okay, all right, fine, I'm going to teach you. It's like the phenomenon is like, I'm going to teach you. I'm going to mess with your digital devices, but learn from that and then do a better experiment. It's almost like it's a trickster spirit, like a trickster energy, but it's trying to teach you and move the ball forward. It's almost like you're, you idiots are going to keep coming back. All right, okay, I'm going to teach you something. So to, you know, to any skeptical person out there, this sounds like a lot of woo-woo stuff. Like this, initially, when you hear this stuff coming from someone like yourself, you know, you have a clear history in studying biology and paleontology. and all this stuff to hear someone like you of your caliber Oh, but there's like a trickster energy that does sound a little woo to people out there. What's an example that you can give that's like a concrete like, oh, here's just one of many that'll help you understand what I'm trying to say. As far as some, the ranch seems to give you what you want. If you come in there with a lot of bravado, people get attacked, people collapse, people fall over, you know, people get their heart attacked, people get their mind attacked. But if you come in and just kind of have an attitude of like, I'd like to learn, then it seems the phenomenon will show you what your field of science wants. Now, I understand you could say the opposite. You could say, well, that's your field of science. So, of course, you're going to notice those kind of things. I'm aware of that. But even factoring that in, it seems to show you that. So it's like amplifying what's already in your mind kind of thing. Like it's aware and it will show you, it will bring you like for me, dead stuff. Anytime I'm going to come on the ranch, dead animals are going to give you so much information. And, you know, we've we even had one time where the producer of the show and I walked out when I just showed up and there was two dead quail sitting right in front of us. And we're both laugh. We start laughing. We're like. OK, Ben showed up. Here's dead quail. Both of them. The beaks open up like this. Right. Both of them had the front, the upper mandible bashed in, but the lower mandible was still in place, which if they ran into something, those would both be broken. They were dead. They sat on the ground all week. Summer heat. They were two feet away. I've got footage of this two feet away from a fire ant hill. The fire ants wouldn't touch it and they stayed floppy for for that whole week. So we ended up freezing them. And so it's like, well, Ben's here. Here's dead animals. That's what you always want. Here's some fresh dead animals for you. You know, there's something deeply ironic about spending all this time talking about surveillance and data leaks and black projects and cryptid apps and then carrying around a phone that's connected to a carrier that's basically farming your information 24 seven because traditional carriers like AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile have had breach after breach after breach. And even when they're not leaking your data, a lot of them are. They're still collecting and selling it. And that's where Cape comes in. Cape is America's privacy first mobile carrier. And this isn't just throw a VPN on your phone privacy. Cape actually protects things at the network level. 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I would probably even estimate tens of thousands of cases of like cattle mutilation across North America. It's it's a problem for a lot of farmers in Canada as well. And especially, you know, in these sort of local or these sort of isolated areas, there seems to be a lot of this happening. And it's not strictly cattle. It sometimes can, you know, go into horses or like other, you know, mammals. But Skinwalker Ranch is known primarily for the cattle mutilations. Yeah. When we're talking about cattle mutilations to anyone that's out there, there's obviously some anomalous things that happen or that happened to the animal that cause, you know, sort of concern, which is the. Unexplained boring of, you know, its genitals or the lack of blood or the lack of struggle even. But then, like you said, just the sort of lack of rigor mortis or the way that they decompose and the way that animals are sort of uninterested in a carcass, which is obviously very interesting to animals normally. What out of all of those symptoms, what have you observed there? Have you seen all of these things firsthand? Yeah. Hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's premium wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk. We have no stores. That means no small talk. Crazy weather we're having. No, it's not. It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only. Then full price plan options available. See mintmobile.com. Hank joined BJ's Wholesale Club the day he became a father of 30. I coach football. Now, Coach Hank saves up to 25% off grocery store prices. 30 pounds of pasta, three cases of protein bars, 75 sports drinks. And that's just pregame. He knows teamwork, and BJ's knows savings. This is your home, Coach. Home of the Save. Join for just $20 at bjs.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months. Open soon. Limited time offer. New members only. BJ's. Home of the Save. My first time. So I'll talk about the small stuff and then the cattle. Great. Yeah. So my first day coming on the ranch, we pull up and at the gate, I look over and there's a dead rabbit sitting there. And I thought, okay. And in those days, I was nervous to take photos and document because it was, I was very cautious about things. And now I film everything. So I snapped a few pictures and every day coming back, it was still there. And we checked it floppy, no ants, no gastrointestinal swelling, you know, no bloating. Uh, no, no scavengers bothered it. No ants, no flies, nothing. It didn't smell. And, um, I was there, I don't know, like three, four or five days that week, that first week. And then the last day I went, it was gone and it was all sand near it. No tracks, nothing, nothing. It's scavenging. It was just gone. Uh, that same first week we found a skunk and it looked like a taxidermy skunk. It looked like it was happy. We're just like, this dead skunk. It was untouched. It didn't. It didn't rot. It smelled a little bit like a skunk, but no rot stink. And then finally for three years, three years. And so finally, Eric Bard and I, is that, is that, that's impossible. That's impossible. You have decomposers. When you die, you have internal bacteria that starts to, you're like, oh, I'm not getting a food source anymore. So it starts to eat your stomach lining off gassing. And that's where you get the bloating. But you also have external decomposers that start to break you down. None of that happened. And so Eric Bard and I. I said, well, it's been three years. Let's film a little blurb on it. So him and I, just on his phone, we filmed a thing of it and turned it over and examined it. The next day we came out, it was gone. And in its place was a perfectly decomposed, like arm of like, probably like a prairie dog, like a large, large rodent, not a skunk. And a chunk of that skunk fur was wedged up on the side of the old ruins of the homestead to there. Almost like, it's like, oh, you think I can't decompose? Blam. Here's a decomposed hand. And here's a little, you know, and nobody else. You can't get on the ranch. You can't just drive on. We were the only ones there. It's just Eric and I. So you did Eric in the middle of the night, go and get rid of the skunk and put a prairie dog laying there and put wedge this thing up there. So what we found is that small animals don't decompose. Rigamortis doesn't set in. They never bloat. If they're in the water, they will. But if they're on land, they don't. They just stay floppy. And this is all animals without a clue. All small animals without exception. Birds and mammals and one frog. We've had weird things with a fish, too, which that's a separate issue, too. But yeah, so small animals, if you're like coyote sized or smaller, if you die on the ranch, you don't decompose. We've had some things like we had a bird called an Oriole and they brought me this Oriole and it was the legs. You got skin and scales. It was on the legs. Right. And when we did a necropsy, open it up, there was just gaps. And I'll send you a picture drawing I did. And it was just like bone empty, bone empty, bone empty down the whole leg. It was just just chunks missing. That bird would not be alive if that was the case. And there were just these gaps of marrow. Yeah. Just like no, no tendon muscle or bone and then tendon muscle and bone. No tendon. Oh, everything. Everything. But the leg except for the skin. Yeah. The skin and the scales on the outside were there. And so we open it up and it's like, that's impossible. And no decomposer would do that. No, dermestid beetles wouldn't do that, you know, because tendon and bone, you know, it doesn't make sense. So I, that one was, that one messed me up. So another one we found on the ranch, a starling, and I think this was on the TV show and this starling was squishy and stay that way for like months. What's a starling? It's a bird? It's a little bird. It's, um, it's in the mina family. They're from Europe. People brought them over. Okay. Um, and you know, they're about the size, like a, you know, Robin bigger than a sparrow, but it was squishy to the touch, stay that way forever. So I took it off the ranch. Once it was off the ranch, it started to decompose and the skull looked like it had blown up from the inside. And Eric pointed that out. He's like, there's looks like some sort of energetic thing that popped out. Well, in the skull, I was, it started to smell at home, never did on the ranch. So is it because it's on the ranch that doesn't decompose? Well, all these weird bubbles started to form. It looked like a metallic bubble and they would, it was almost like a, yeah, like a bubble would start. And I got tweezers and I'm like, oh, I'm going to grab this pop. It pops, no residue. And I'm like, oh, that's strange. Another one forms. And they kept forming. And finally, I'm like, every time this is popping, nobody's going to believe me. So I snapped a few photos and I'll show you some photos of that too. But I was like, I don't know what that stuff was, but it didn't happen until this dead bird was taken off the ranch. But before that, even when it was fresh off the ranch, squishy and floppy. It's insane. That's, I mean, that's definitely insane. I want to, I want to just interject. With something that maybe I should have said at the beginning, but there, you know, when you reached out to me, you were kind of pretty happy that you were able to talk about some of these things because previously there had been, you had to sign some NDAs about a lot of this information. Yes. Due to the nature of, because they might be using it in future seasons or, you know, it's proprietary, you know, information that you were hired and you were, but is there, so now that you're released of this, partially released of some of that information, there is still information that you can't talk about. Absolutely. Is that information that you can't talk about related to just like breakthrough findings in science and, and, or is it related to more like proprietary info or is it related to security? It's more security and things that we've witnessed. The things that I've gotten permission to talk about, there's a lot that I can't talk about. In my fields. That you can't? Cannot. Okay. And there's a lot that I, that I cannot, that are in other people's fields who have been on the ranch that we've witnessed. And even just some of the things, like some of the things I can loosely talk about, like seeing a UFO on the ranch is commonplace. I mean, I've got footage that one day, and I did ask Brandon if I could talk about this one, but we were filming at the end of the day and we had been in the river. Everybody was exhausted. I mean, it was, it was like a million degrees all day, humid, and we were just all dead. It was the middle of the night and we all have to drive like a half an hour to get back into town. And I look over, I'm like, you guys, there's, there's a UFO. And I'm talking to the film crew. Do you guys want to film this? What do you, what do you mean by UFO? Like it came over a big, bright orb, not distant, like big enough, way bigger than a star or the space station or something bigger than that. And it came over and to the West from, from the West and it came over and it was kind of like hovering, you know, being in place. And I'm like, you guys, you, you want to film that? And they're like, no, we're just, I'm like, you know, I mean, UFO. And they're like, ah, it's okay. So I, I grabbed a couple of shots and grabbed a little footage of it. It's like, it's that commonplace on the ranch to have something come over. And so usually they only document it. And I mean, it's always documented, like there's cameras 24 seven. But as far as the boots on the ground, if, if it's not part of an experiment, it might not get the attention it deserves. So you're saying that there's like this whole catalog of anomalous UAP footage that they're not releasing. It just hasn't been gone through. Hasn't been gone through. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so now they have like the skin Walker ranch insiders where people can help, you know, can sign up and can help go through some of the footage real time. Um, which has been kind of nice because people will find stuff and then they'll bring it up to some of us on the team and say, what do you think about this? So, because there's just so much going on. You, you alluded to government involvement, uh, limited government involvement, or at least interest still in the ranch. Have you, have you witnessed any of that? Uh, they told me when I first started, they said, Hey, officially the government isn't officially involved, but they are still interested both behind the scenes and in front of the scenes. And, you know, Travis Taylor is always on the UAP task force and it's like, and he even reported some of the anomalies back to the government and broken NDA because of this might be a national security issue. So, but they told me when I started, they said, Hey, just be aware. Um, it's possible that, you know, you might have the government listening to your phone calls or check or checking your emails. Um, you know, follow your NDAs that you've signed. Um, so they were casual about it. That wasn't like a threat or a warning when they said, you know, and we've seen on the ranch, I mean, the government will fly over. The government has done grids. We've seen with airplanes over the ranch and helicopters, helicopters coming in. Yeah. And, and the Blackhawk helicopter is coming in and then even when you have congressmen in Utah trying to follow up on it, can't get direct answers. It's like, you should get a direct answer about that. Do you think Brandon is involved at that level? Like, I mean, obviously he, you know, he owns the place. He's got a lot of money. Um, do you think someone like him would be regularly debriefing some faction of the government? He, he tells him Brandon is the coolest guy on earth. He is so, he is such an awesome guy and he's sincere. He is, he is intelligent and he works his, his butt off more than anybody. I know he's actually passionate about real estate, like legitimately. So he's a mogul in that field and he, and he loves it. It's not about money. He loves doing that. And so this is his side thing that it's like, I want answers and he really wants answers. And so he has really done a lot of networking, getting certain government officials together and like, look, Hey, we need to be paying attention to this. We need to be addressing this. So he's briefed people. I know he has, and he's been instrumental in trying to move this conversation forward, which I have the maddest respect for. I mean, that was at the potential risk of his career, you know, or, or, or more. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, do you think though that like the involvement of the government is a net positive or a net negative? Because it depends, you know, there are two sides to this. Some parts of the government seem like they can't wait to talk about it, but then you hear about the seedy under, under side that kind of covers everything up. Yeah. Um, do you, do you see a concern there? I had, there might be, I mean, we get our phones hacked while we're on the ranch. You'll just be sitting there and all of a sudden something opens up. Your phone is like going through everything. No way. Oh yeah. That happens to everybody on the ranch and some people, it ruins their phones. I've had my phone hacked twice. I've never had it, but is that the phenomenon or is that our government? Is that another government? I don't know. We've had audio things happen where we're just sitting there and all of a sudden it's like, Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I you hear like a double echo coming back over all around the room and it's like, it's like, okay, well clearly somebody is tapping in and recording. Maybe it's like the NSA kind of thing. I don't know. Um, and maybe it's the phenomenon doing it. I don't know that, but I, I, I think the government, I don't know for sure. This is speculation. I get the impression that, you know, the government did a lot of work in the nineties and now that Brandon's here and trying to do work and getting the government involved, I think the government's like, well, Hey, let's just from the sidelines, let them do the work. Sure. Yeah. Just costing us nothing. Yeah. Good point. Okay. Let's get back to some of the stuff you are allowed to talk about. Okay. Um, and some of these more bizarre cases involving mammals. So we've gone through the fowl, we've gone through the rabbit. What's, what's next on this chain? So cattle, um, the cattle are so cattle mutilations. Well, we're working our way out. All right. There was a wolf. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so that, well, there, this involves a cow too. Um, so, um, so on daylight cameras, a UFO on, on what we call the path of the skin Walker, this North South running line where all these anomalous things always happen along this fence line, UFO shows up, there's a cow in the shade underneath and buckles and dies. UFO goes away. This season one of the TV show. It's like, why aren't we talking about this all the time? Normally a mammal when they die, they go into the fetal position. You know, they, the tendons dry out this way. This thing went spiraled all crazy. Um, so they brought me out and I found that something had bit with its tooth through one of the ribs. And I took the rib and measured it and it matched up to either a dire wolf or a Jaguar. I checked a whole bunch of teeth. Now it doesn't mean that's what it is, but I just said, okay, it doesn't match a regular wolf. Doesn't match coyote. Doesn't match bigger than a regular wolf, bigger than regular wolf. And I took a rib and went and tested through and took the next rib over and tested like bite force. And even with a black bear tooth and even that it shattered. So whatever it was had a lot of power because normally carnivores, if they're going to bite a rib, they use their molars and they bite off a side to get the marrow and they'll chomp, chomp, chomp. They don't use the front canines. They, that's going to break them. So it bits clean through, poked it right through and made a conchoidal fracture. And so from that, we had this thought, oh, you know, probably not a dire wolf, but okay. But then people, even from the Sherman era in the nineties claimed that they had seen these big giant wolves and that they had attacked things and, had attacked the dogs on the ranch and stuff. That was the original sort of depiction of a skin walker itself was like this half man half wolf type yeah like shapeshifter kind of thing yeah this big giant wolves and on the ranch the same thing they were telling me like in the 90s there was more of there was a couple stories of kind of like dinosaur like things like velociraptor type things that people said but there was a lot more of mammals and they said oh yeah there's like a there's a dino beaver they said they saw oh and they were laughing about i'm like well what do you mean like a beaver like you know like 300 pounds and i said well we had those here during the ice age 10 000 years ago and i had brought out a skull and showed them i'm like here it is it's castoroides this is giant like wait that was actually real it's like yes so the question so a lot of these things that people were seeing seem to be ice age animals which is the time right before us we're still coming out of the ice age so it's like okay well did you see you know uh is there a portal opening up that's letting these things through so with the wolf um they were going along the river doing a totally different experiment and they found this it's painful to watch they found this this thing and it it had rotted properly even though a wolf a wolf thing a canine for a canine had massive fangs oversized fangs and they said uh we had to get this for ben but it stinks so bad let's just hack off the jaw and bring it to ben so they showed it to me and i'm like oh my gosh i'm like go get the rest of it they went to get the rest of it most of it the skull had washed down river they got me the rest of the skeleton that they could get but the jaw i'm like the number of teeth it has and the size and shape and the robustness matches a dire wolf that doesn't mean that's what it is but that's yeah we have a big wolf on our hands big wolf on our hands that shouldn't be here and did that match up to the bite marks uh it did it did it was the same size same shape and so we're like well we can do a dna test so we sent a dna sample we send the tooth to colossal bioscience which is the leading you know uh genetics lab in the world right now they're the ones bringing back the dire wolf yeah and they're working on bringing back mammoths and stuff sure and so they they and they have like every canine in the world when was this um three years ago maybe four animals okay you weren't responsible for them bringing back the dire wolf not that i know of not that i know of you you gave them the dna yeah they they say they have said that they have some other sources that it came from so so but you know who knows right so but when this when it came back the results came back and this was it was funny because we were filming our response to it and we had the whole team on on it was like a big old call and brandon was on and all of us were yelling and fighting and swearing not at each other but at science we were angry about science about this and like the producers are like we should have just used this instead because this was like the most entertaining tv we've seen because we were so mad about so the results came back and basically uh 90 89 basically 90 percent of it is a non-existent wolf species so the remaining 10 percent is um eurasian gray wolf and greenland gray wolf those do not live in utah those are not in the united states though that alone should be a story right what's a greenland they're separated yeah that alone is anomalous so why are they there but colossal said and i think they're trying to save their professionalism they said well from this we can you know confidently declare this as being a gray wolf and i'm like 10 of it is a gray wolf what about the other 90 90 is the bulk of it if you're was 10 chihuahua and the rest of it was wolf you would say this is a wolf right you wouldn't say this is a chihuahua you know it's like 90 of this is a new wolf um and they put it on their list and they just put it down as mystery they didn't want to declare it they didn't want to call it a dire wolf they didn't want to call it anything else and they they even they have like every cane they even have papuan singing dogs genetically sequenced and then fast forward a few years later they're making a dire wolf now they're making a dire wolf yeah seems a little suspicious it's suspicious they they they say it's from some other sources but um i don't i don't know because i'm not into things that's but i mean that's a massive coincidence yeah it's at least noteworthy if nothing else it's no definitely noteworthy and again the fact if you're saying this is just a gray wolf but only 10 of the dna is a gray wolf and it's gray wolves that shouldn't be in utah you know so what is this 90 what is this other wolf that yeah i mean isn't that even more exciting than it being a chihuahua a dire wolf especially for them to go oh no it's not a dire wolf and then they immediately make a dire wolf it's suspicious i mean that to me to me would raise a few flags for sure uh okay all right well that's i mean incredibly anomalous and seems substantial and important um and yet you know still not sufficient to say oh this is you know like we don't have we don't have any any uh of this like where where do they come from is this a one-off somehow that survived is it a portal like you said is it you know um there's there's a lot of these speculative uh questions that occur around these anomalies that seem to go unanswered yes all right moving forward we we now go to cattle i guess because we i mean this is kind of related it bit into one of these now the cattle that it bit into the cow that it bit into that was the one that got killed by the ufo now when you yeah on camera and and this this footage exists yeah have i seen this okay i've probably seen our season one season one um and it's so far back there's so many other things happen people are like oh yeah wait yeah this yeah happened oh there's a see a ufo hover over a cow and kill it it's like that's big and but we've had other cattle too like the the if you ever watch the show there's this calf and earlier in the day it was fine uh thomas winterton saw it running around it was fine with all the other calves and then all of a sudden all the cattle just including its mother all back away on either side and it's running around in circles going crazy and normally if that happens a mother is going to come along and like hey i'm here for you what's going on and even the mother backed away and um its eyes had whited over it its brain had been like scrambled they got it off the ranch it's permanently blind now but it's okay it's healthy it's recovered but they said it looked like something energetically had affected its brain you know like radiation to the brain or something not mad cow disease or anything nope they tested they tested for everything they could and they said it's healthy once they got it off the ranch and it was healthy earlier in the day and all of a sudden just running around in circles so this other this other cow that that um had come up dead because of the you know after the ufo had appeared and it's like it's like it's like it's like sort of fell over and it was all contorted did it uh exhibit the same symptoms as some of the other smaller mammals in terms of like decomposing uh no it's with one exception it seems like big animals do decompose like if we find a dead elk or a dead cow on the ranch normally there's cattle that are mutilated on the ranch but then you have the occasional cow that just seems to die they do normally seem to decompose normally the one that the ufo seemed to have killed that one it did decompose normally except for there were no dermestid beetles so once you get to a certain level of decomposition yeah i don't small insects will take take control you put a chicken bone in your yard and within a week you're going to have dermestid beetles that show up out of nowhere there were no dermestid beetles and there was some species of green shiny decomposing beetle that i had not until i researched it knowing that that species existed in utah but no dermestids and there's dermestids on the ranch yeah and there's no dermestids on the ranch and there's no dermestids um but they would just avoid it yeah as well as i guess any other small critter yeah yeah so it seems like it did break down like the gastrointestinal bacteria did break that thing down but the spine just the tendons just contorted it really in these weird and again we in paleontology and paleobiology call that the dinosaur death pose but the cow did that perfectly just like ah it's it's wild looking you see it i'll i'll send you pictures when you say the dinosaur death pose is that because of the fossils that we see of these like yeah yeah so the the tendons on dinosaurs and birds they can when when the tendons start to dry on birds and dinosaurs they contort this way uh-huh mammals contort in the fetal position i see and the this cow contorted like a dinosaur like a bird yeah like a bird strange what do you think what do you speculate uh a human body would look like if it had a decomposed and skinwalker and if perhaps one already has you know but obviously there's you know bare ancient burial grounds around there but what would your suspicion be um i don't know but my question is do these things do these things because they're on the ranch or because they're from the ranch i see so what i want to do a test of is like i don't bring out like a fryer chicken and put it out there and see how does that decompose and then bring one from there and have it die somewhere else yeah yeah has that not been done have you guys not uh imported any dead by the way yeah bodies into the ranch not i feel like that's like an oversight i feel like you guys should be it's more just busy uh just normally that's on the list of things to do that's been on the list for three years But that is something we want to do, some on-site. Same thing with some mushroom experiments we're going to do, growing mycelium on there and different things and microbes, you know, take microbes on the ranch, grow them off, take off the ranch, grow them on. But it's just so busy, you know, and when they're doing the filming, you know, we're usually focused on big end things. And so it's just finding time to fit the small stuff in. I suppose, yeah, that's exciting. And there's a lot of things to do and a lot of hands in the pot as well, you know, from, again, from people studying the science, the physics, the archaeology, the landscape. I mean, there's lots to look at. In terms of animals, there are some other anomalous stories, one that you sort of told me over breakfast about a falcon. Can you tell me about that? The NBA's back on prize picks. We have no stores. No, it's not. It's just weather. See mintmobile.com. 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I don't need a side quest trying to remove my phone number from 47 websites. If you want to take back some control over your data, go to incogni.com slash area52 and use code area52 to save 60% on an annual plan. Because your privacy should not be declassified. Yeah, so we wanted to bring some bioindicator species, and we were very cautious about this. And some people immediately attack and say, how dare you bring animals onto the ranch? And that's dangerous. It's like, well, humans are animals, and we're on the ranch, and there's wild animals on the ranch too. So in one. In one sense, it's sixes. We're all at risk, right? But we're very cautious about it. So first I brought on owls. I brought a great horned owl and some barn owls, and they would see. Owls have three-dimensional hearing. Their ears, one's pointed up, one's pointed down. These things aren't the ears. The ears are openings under the feathers. And they have. So they have three-dimensional hearing. We'd bring them on the ranch, and they'd bob, and they just like. They're focusing in on things that were not there. When we're out in the helicopter field, and the. The east field, they would just like. And we just documented them seeing things. So I'm going to bring an owl out again this year. Then we said, well, let's try flying some falcons. So we brought out a couple peregrine falcons, and they each had on a radio transmitter and a three-dimensional GPS transmitter. So two different, totally different ways of measuring things. So we first went, and we're like, let's fly through the triangle. So Eric and I went up on the hill, and there's the triangle is this anomalous zone, and on the ranch where crazy things happen. So I had my friend down below calling the falcon in. And while Eric and I were on the hill, the 3D GPS says we're bouncing up in the air and jumping all over the place, and we're just standing there. And so it's already wigging out. When the bird flew through the triangle, as it went through the triangle, the radio transmitter flared up both times. And then once the bird was on the ground, my buddy was picking it up, it said that, and he was like Spock in fast motion. You know, just like, and he was just sitting there. So we did that twice. I thought, okay, that's kind of weird. Let's go to the East field. So we went to the East field. We start flying the falcon. It's flying up, it's doing good. We're like, okay, that's interesting. Let's call it back down. It comes back down, and we have a lure. It's like a fake bird. You swing around, you put it on the ground, the bird lands, and you go pick them up. So my buddy does that. And right as it gets by the ground, it freaks out. It's like, huh? And it kind of like panics every time and goes back up a bit and goes to come back down there. Something on the ground was repelling it. It was something repulsed it from going down. So it freaked out. It started going up, going up, going up, and got to about 800 feet, and the GPS blips start missing. It's like beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, and keeps going up, keeps going up. We're filming, the TV crew is filming, and all of a sudden, the bird disappears. And we're like, what? My buddy's like, my falcon, where'd it go? And then on the GPS, it reappears over the triangle, which is about a mile away. And so we go running over there. How long of a time? Instantly. Instantly. Immediately. Impossible. Impossible. And now the, and when it disappeared, no GPS, no radio signal. The second it reappears, the radio transmitter is working 100% correctly. We can see the bird, radio transmitter is working. The GPS is now mirroring, the bird's motions, but it's off. In the wrong place. It's in the wrong place. And when we got the bird back and pulled up the data, it says the bird went through the mesa. Whoa. Which is impossible. And it's important to note, if you follow this stuff, if you watch the TV show, where the bird went in the mesa, we have at night a white orb that goes into the mesa at that same spot. And there's another season where Brandon's flying in a helicopter at sunset, still daylight and a white orb comes out of the mesa below him. That is the same place where the Falcon went in and where the Falcon reappeared. So you got to piece those things together. Maybe they're related. Maybe they're not the Falcon, a hundred percent fine. It was kind of like, Oh, a little alarmed, but it was fine. Healthy birds alive and happy today. Still being flown. That's incredible. But that's impossible. They didn't put it on the show just because they, sometimes you'll put it later on in the season or you'll put it in the next season. And like, Oh, I was this season, but there were some people in those shots that aren't on the show anymore. And so like, Oh, well now we can't do this. And I'm like, this is really important. Yeah. It should still be released. You don't have access to that footage. I all, I have access to the GPS to the GPS data, which I have. I bet I can get permission to share that, but I haven't been given permission. I, but I have, I got Brandon gave me permission to share this story because I'm like, this needs to be out there if it's never going to be on the show. I mean, the world needs to know that. I mean, a teleporting bird is quite substantial, especially if you got it on camera disappearing and then reappearing elsewhere. You know, as a magician, I would, uh, you know, obviously, oh, it's just two identical birds. You know, it's the old twin trick, the old prestige illusion. Well, and we had, we also had when those of us, cause I was filming with my camera, Eric Bard was holding my phone and filming, and a lot of us were hand filming. And I, I know a couple, I don't remember who else's, but I know for sure my camera while it was filming just shut off and battery a hundred percent dead. And I know a couple other people were having issues while they were filming it right before the bird disappeared. So, yeah, that seems to be par for the course there as well. It's just like phones scrambled, like you said, or uncharging or just shutting off or not working. That's yeah. Very, very strange. What are some of the other things that you were not allowed to talk about previously? Um, I mean, one of the, one of the ones is there's, there seems to be a Jaguar on the ranch and we filmed it also, um, which this brings up a lot of different points. So Jaguars were, they ranged all the way to Canada during the ice age. People think of a Jaguar as being tropical or desert, uh, but they used to range all the way up North and supposedly regular Jaguars and the ice age Jaguar, which both lived in the desert. But at the same time, now we only have the one supposedly they shouldn't really be any further North and like Arizona, um, barely. Right. But we started seeing on the ranch, Utah is in a 25 year drought. Um, it's just prey populations, animal populations are rock bottom. And all of a sudden on the ranch, all the populations started to explode. Um, pheasants, quail, magpies, ground squirrels, prairie dogs, jackrabbits, cottontails, turkeys just started to explode. which suggests that a carnivore that eats them, like a coyote, being kicked out and um we started to find these giant cat prints which we just assumed oh it's a big cougar you know something like that um but then we started to also have scat samples uh that we took and they had coyote guard hairs in them and raccoons so something is killing and eating coyotes and killing and eating raccoons now wolves don't eat coyotes they kill them it's kind of like you wouldn't eat a chimpanzee that would seem weird we're too closely related it's kind of like it's eating a cousin yeah right wolves kill coyotes but they don't eat them whatever this is doing it's killing and eating coyotes and killing and eating raccoons and hunting from the water it's going along the the little river there which jaguars do and then um we had uh the uh caleb on this head of security there he uh one of his friends just off the ranch filmed and i don't know if you've seen it but i don't know if you've seen it but i don't know if you've seen it but i don't know if you've seen it but i don't know if you've seen it but i don't know if you've got this footage uh black jaguar and it's shiny it's reflective and i've gone to the site and checked the size and shape of all the bush there and everything it's like it's a daytime black jaguar just off the ranch and it's like okay is this this it is this the big cat um you would had people have said well if that's the case okay is this just a jaguar that's moved up north really far north or is this a portal opening up from the past is it a modern jaguar or is it a prehistoric jaguar don't know but it's that that should be far bigger news and i right know why but that is not catching people are not talking about that and it's like even because we have jaguars yeah yeah so yeah unfortunately unfortunately you know you could take a bengal tiger and and just drop it in central london and or you know what i mean and people would be like wow it's just somebody's pet you know it it wouldn't uh the significance of it wouldn't resonate with most people i think and and i think that's part of the issue with a lot of the scientific approach to the phenomenon itself because in a vacuum individually whether it's through geology paleontology ancient architecture physics like all of these individual platforms will showcase highly anomalous and seemingly groundbreaking truths but to the general lay audience it'll just seem like semantics or or like oh it's this is just their jargon and it's not really relatable or translatable to the general populace which is why you know i yeah i think they want to see a flying saucer they want to see a you know a little green man or whatever um but yeah i mean i always tell people i'm like hey if a ufo comes over and lands and a little alien gets out and says hi that's earth shattering but it's not more profound than if you have decomposition halted almost like the animal is suspended in time it's like if you have no internal gastrointestinal bacteria doing anything no external bacteria doing anything rigor mortis not setting in no scavengers bothering it that is breaking the known laws of nature and of physics a ufo coming and saying hi is more amazing but it's not more profound you're not breaking anything that's just whoa right you know but yet i would i would rather see that but this over here is actually far stranger more significant yeah i mean it just it's a we don't see it that way but that's how it actually is so like it's interesting too to think about this just because the the decomposition like you said right there something stuck with me that that it's paused almost like it's suspended in time does that not also affect the living we don't know we have seen issues with time happen um that i documented on the ranch and even on the show um small differentiations in time uh that definitely have happened there's kind of like a bubble over the ranch they they called it the cone and then the dome and now they call it the bubble so there's a region it's not quite a mile wide and it's not it doesn't stay it kind of moves a little you know give or take 20 feet on either side but what's really weird about this is for example like little things like ants who cares about ants but are bioindicator species outside of the bubble ant hills normal it's high piled up silica get rid of all the organics get rid of the dust it's only silica so it's a big old solar panel warm up the colony at sunrise inside they make this i'll send you pictures inside it's this stupid thing it's not it's got grass all around it and in it it's not even an ant colony it doesn't look like an ant colony at all and it would not allow them to warm up and on the border the ants are going crazy they attack you if you are on we put uh posts all around the border of this bubble and we were just there and these ants started attacking us and we filmed them they're just running around in circles like in this big of an area they're just like it's like they're going crazy they're not harvesting they're not defending or attacking they're just going around in circles like their brains are being fried and so we're like oh let's let's get away from this area because if this is happening to them what's happening to them us being right here absolutely that was my next question is like isn't that what you guys are doing too kind of going around in circles trying to measure this stuff you know like it is it is interesting when you're like whatever it is you're measuring seems to be changing um you know there's there's always that sort of philosophical question or even deeply scientific question of you know can anything truly is anything truly measurable you know because if it knows it's being observed if it's conscious on some level then what you're getting is you know it's askew it's not yeah um perfect so do you think that there's any merit to measuring anything at all there like i mean because it feels like it's just always it appealing to you got to have something you got to have some sort of language and and math and measurements are kind of the language of science uh what we've seen is that all all the folk are using scientific terms and all the scientists using religious terms because none of us have a vocabulary to describe this stuff like if we say hey a portal you're going to picture rick and morty right warm a portal opens up but that's we're just that's a term that we all know and that's actually a clunky term what is this some of these portals that happen on the triangle they seem to not just be point a to point b you know and we're measuring them with these different it's like is it coming through time is it coming through space what is this we don't know so portal is a clunky term it's a good term because you get the general idea but we don't know what it is but we got to have something and so i agree the phenomenon is always one step ahead of us and sometimes it's it's tricksterish or occasionally mean and occasionally it even attacks people but it also will kind of lead you along like hey look over here i'm going to teach you a little more oh good job little monkey uh you you learn i'm going to teach you a little more little more um but you have to you have to have something and so it may be oh okay like i said okay small animals don't decompose big animals do decompose if you're in the water you do seem to decompose that's those are measurable that's i've i've put those ground rules on they might not apply at all maybe it's just random maybe that's just what i've found in certain instances and maybe it doesn't apply elsewhere but i'm just trying to make a framework that's what we're trying to do it's it's seems like that's the toughest thing to do there because even creating a framework based on what we already know doesn't seem to be working yeah because we grew up with certain rules rules of nature rules of physics and they don't seem to apply there so what are the rules then you you don't know and how do you take a measurement if you say okay this is this is 10 inches long well if an inch isn't actually an inch and sometimes an inch is three inches it's like what are you talking about it doesn't make sense so you that's what it's like so the real cost of a break-in isn't your valuables it's the feeling that your home stopped being safe simply safe keeps danger away from your family with three layers of protection one smart ai cameras and live us-based agents help stop intruders before they break in two we sound the alarm at points of entry three our agents request emergency response plans starting around a dollar a day right now get 60 off your new system with professional monitoring at simply safe.com spotify outdoor deterrence plans start at 49.99 a month visit simply safe.com licenses for alarm license information hey ryan reynolds here from int mobile now i don't know if you've heard but mint's premium wireless is fifteen dollars a month but i'd like to offer one other perk we have no stores that means no small talk crazy weather we're having no it's not it's just weather it is an introvert's dream give it a try at mintmobile.com switch upfront payment of 45 for three month plan 15 per month equivalent required new customer offer first three months only then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra see mintmobile.com now let's talk about what's going on in the world right now and we're going to talk a little bit more about what's going on in the world right now and we're going to talk a little bit more about what's going on in the world right now and we're going to talk a little bit more about what's going on in the world right now and we're going to talk a little bit more about what's going on in the world and your own personal speculation what's in the mesa uh is that something you can talk about i can't talk much about it um i can talk some about what's on the show it doesn't make sense well i will say this i think i'm okay i i'm okay i think okay to say this if you watch this if you if you go on google earth and google maps and look over the years and if you watch the show so i'm just sharing what you should be able to see publicly the mesa is That area is sinking in on itself and has been steadily. When you look at it like first season, it's almost that section is pretty normal. And where the thing is in the Mesa seems to be moving in and noticeably. So watch from season one until now and you'll be like, oh, gee. And that's been discussed? I don't think it's been discussed on the show, but all of us are like, um, what's going on here? It seems to be moving in in that area. Because the Mesa definitely seems to be like the crux of a lot of this activity. And obviously also a giant accelerator for, you know, the phenomenon, but also for ratings. Like, I mean, let's be honest. Like, I mean, the mystery stays alive. People tune in every week. They want to see what happens, what's in the Mesa. What percentage of that hype is related to the show wanting to have another season versus, man, there's genuinely something here that we're really interested in, but we don't have the capacity to get in there. Like, whoa. It's, it's, it's a hundred percent legitimate. I think, um, we, people default to what they picture in the head. Like I said, you know, if you say portal, you picture Rick and Morty and you get your visual, you get right. And I've seen, I'll, I'll tell you later on. If you want, I'll tell you a story where I saw a portal, um, and we witnessed it. Um, same thing. If you say there's something in the Mesa, what do you probably picture? A UFO. Probably picture some saucer in there and we just got to get to it. Well, whatever's going on there is more abstract. We've found a material that we can deconstruct under radiation and then rebuilds itself. That's impossible. We found green leaves dating back to the EO scene, which is impossible. And then you take them out and they dry out. It's like, okay, that's what are you doing? Hundreds of feet down in a Mesa. They found ceramics with, uh, um, atomic layering. You know, amazing material. I don't, I'm not privy to a lot of that. I know a lot of that is coming out soon. Some of the materials they found in the Mesa, but they also found like, I think a penny deep in the Mesa. What's that? Were people down there in the past? I think it was like 1920s or 1930s, forties, something like that. Penny they found in there deep in the Mesa. How can that be there? Who put it there? Was it there? Was the Mesa, did it used to be open or is there that have something to do with time? Or is that the phenomenon showing us something? There's some type of like by, by the. Sound of this, it, it sounds like there might be some type of, uh, mine or something down there. Like, I mean, if it's collapsing in on itself, that would make sense. Penny would make sense. Yeah. So what, whatever's going on there, it, it, I think it's more abstract. I think we want the visual of there is an object in the Mesa. We got to get to it. Whatever is happening there and the things coming out of it. I think it's more abstract than that. I mean, it could just be simply, yeah, UFOs there, you know, some craft crash in there a long time. It could be. Absolutely. But I think we default to that because we're drawn to the unknown, but we don't want the, we don't want a nebulous answer. We want, here's the unknown and here's the known. It's a craft. Cause it's just like, you know, as, as an outsider looking in, you know, we're familiar with, uh, you know, there's a show on TV called, um, it's, uh, what was it? Not Skull Island, but. Oh, uh, Oak Island. Oak Island. There you go. It's in Canada as well. I should know this. Uh, but the secret of Oak Island and it. It feels like they keep leading you on every season. You're just like, ah, we're not, we're going to get it. We're going to get it. And like, the more I watch Skinwalker, the more I get this feeling now that I'm like, can't we just like get in there? Can't we just, you know, we, we have, it seems like we have the financial resources to get this done. Um, but then, you know, the machinery starts breaking down or like the, the, the technology starts going haywire. It always feels like a convenient sort of thing that happens that. Protects this area and convenient in the sense that like, this is also the area that people want to see on TV. So you understand my, uh, slight frustration and not, not, I'm still entertained by it thoroughly, but there is, there is this feeling. And I think a lot of people also feel that to a certain extent. Um, what part of that for you is completely true that, yeah, there is that factor here where we just want to, you know, film a TV show and we have to be careful. Or no, there's just no way of getting in there. Like, uh, what is that? So, um, among the people who are on the show and among the different scientists, the people on the team, we get frustrated because first of all, the amount of shows they put on, you can't show all that happens. Uh, a lot of times the editors is too much. There's too much. Yeah. And a lot of times the editors will pick and choose and they'll say, so it's not the team. It's the editors will say, well, Hey, we think this over here makes for a compelling TV. And it's like, but this thing. That doesn't seem like, again, a lack of decomposition, time being frozen, um, desert trumpet plants growing in wackadoodle ways in certain areas. Some of these things that have happened. We've okay. I can only alluded because they might use at some point we caught a flying mammal on camera that doesn't exist. And I'll just say that much. It's like, I did ask Brandon to be able to say that much, but they might use it, but it's like, that's huge. Why aren't we saying that? Well, because some of these things are. More compelling and they're going to draw people in more. And it's like flying mammal, mammal, the powered flight. No, no, um, no, not a bat, not a flying squirrel, flying mammal. I'm running out of options here. Doesn't exist. Long face, long, weird, curled in whiskers, almost like a binturong. If you ever see those curled in whiskers, long tail, not a webbed tail. And we've yeah. So I probably shouldn't say more than that, but we've got it documented. So keep after us. If, if, if they don't, if they don't let us put that in the show, then, then let's then all say, Hey, Brandon, can we pretty please get this information out there? Um, because if, you know, but it seems like scientific discovery is then taking a backseat to. On the show, but not on the actual investigation. No, but okay. So you guys are investigating year round in, in, in, in a really formal and professional capacity. You're just not releasing that information. And, um, I, and some of it, I mean, there's some of it's just barely authorized because the whole you into basin where skin Walker ranches, it's almost like a funnel and like the, the most happens on the ranch, but that whole basin is weird. People were seeing UFOs all the time. People were seeing weird shape shifting things, but it seems to the epicenter is the ranch. And I mean, um, uh, Caleb and Nathan had me come out, you know, a few weeks ago to check out this cow that died and wasn't decomposing and we, no bloating. And we were talking and it was just barely off the ranch and it was healthy and just died. And they're like, was this and nothing, no scavengers would touch it. So we put game cameras up on it and nothing was bothering it. We had a Raven come up and like, and a coyote came up to it and ran off. Don't know what that means, but I mean, these kinds of things aren't going to end up in the show. That one was just barely off. Sure. So, uh, there's so much year round that's happening there. And the, the skin Walker ranch insiders that helps. You know, where we can year round, how people keep an eyes on the cameras, but there, yeah, there's a lot that just probably will never come out. What's something that you would do differently if you were in charge of all this? Not, and I'm not saying that in a way that like, you know, better than anybody, but I'm just, I'm, I'm curious about like where your head's at. What would you prioritize? Um, I would, I would say, let's make a list of what we do know or the, okay. We, here's the known rules of the universe. Here's what we think. The rules on the wrench. Like I told you the thing about decomposition. Yes. What do we think the rules are? And let's test what we think the new rules are, you know, let, and each of our fields, let's go through and say, let's, you know, specify some new experiments to test whether or not these new perceived rules are the rules. Um, that's, that's what I would do. That's what I would focus on. Um, you know, maybe not on camera, but you know, that's, that's where I'd put my effort. Yeah. Cause it seems like that's pretty substantial in, in. In terms of just specifically the decomposition or the, I guess, halting of decomposition or, or, or slowing down, whatever, whatever that is. Yeah. Um, could essentially be very beneficial for studying things. Oh yeah. You know, if, if we had the ability to mummify things, uh, in a way that preserved their organs, um, and didn't necessarily destroy the tissue, uh, I feel like. I feel like that would be a breakthrough for paleontology, for biology, for all types. And even perhaps, you know, answering some of the questions on, you know, um, the preservation of youth or the longevity of our own lifespan. It's like, I mean, it feels related. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever it is, you know, we should have a better understanding of it because it's not just, it's internal and external. Mm-hmm. Wow. And other life forms. Again, if scavengers coming up are. Right. Deterred. Yeah. What's, what's doing that? So, and I, we, we, we, the cattle mutilations too. It's like, I was so skeptical of cattle mutilations growing up. You know, I've heard about it my whole life. Um, but then as I've started both on the ranch and as I've talked with other people in other cases and, uh, move on has a really good record of them and they've helped me and I've gone out to some of these sites. It's like, there actually is something to this. I did not want to admit that I'm admitting that not all of them. Yeah. But there absolutely is something to it. Why? Why cattle? And the joke is, I don't know if you remember the Star Trek where they went back to get the whales. There's a Star Trek episode where they go back in time. There's this probe that comes from space and it's shooting this beam at the Earth and it's like causing all this chaos in these oceans. And they turn out, well, it's actually trying to communicate with whales, but we've made whales extinct. So they go back in time and bring some whales back. And and like Spock says, if we were to assume that this message was meant for humans, that shows our arrogance because maybe it's for another life form. And it was it was for whales. Right. So who knows? Maybe cattle or what matter. Maybe maybe aliens are coming from somewhere. They don't care about us, but they're curious about cattle. Yeah. People in India would be would be right about a lot of things in that case. Yeah. Which I don't say that's what it is. But I'm just saying you've got to be open to the possibility you're wrong. Yeah. And you. You should listen. Not every theory is going to be equal value, but it is valuable to hear it. Yeah. Even if it's wrong. The bovine is a sacred animal in many cultures. It also is one of the only species that we're sort of compatible with on in like I believe like the plasma or something. Something to do with the blood, like bovine blood, especially I think fetuses. And I'm not a biologist by in any in any by any. But I've read that there are some similarities there as well as even the the sort of tallow, how it's like it's good for us. It's it our skin recognizes it as our own. And so like there's there's all this like overlap between us and bovine that seems to seems to be related. And if that's the case, then, you know. It I don't know. It makes for interesting speculation. I had a guest in here recently. That was talking about, you know, his alleged alien abductions. And he was then sort of deferring to the the idea that they feed on blood somehow like but is it's consumed not orally, but like like absorbing it. Exactly. Like they sit in these vats or whatever. And that. It would it would make sense that their blood would be sort of compatible. If we are related to these species that are taking these cows or whatever it is or taking their blood. But the desanguination is just, I think, the most bizarre part of all this, because there's never even in winter. That's what like blew my mind. Yeah. I live in Canada. We get a lot of snow. I take a piss in the snow. You're going to see it. Right. Let alone if a drop of blood touches the snow. These things have no blood in them. And there's no blood around them. No tracks leading up or going to or from them. No struggle. They're just dead on their side, you know, with these holes bored in them and with no blood left. Like, what are you supposed to make of that? Yeah. Like, how do you frame that in a way that makes any sense? And I think hearing way out there theories is important because even if it's wrong, it's going to get you to think outside of your mindset. And then you're going to make decisions. It's the real connection of what it is over here. So I think it's good to hear all these things. They're thought experiments, even if you don't agree with it or you think, oh, this is crazy. Sure. But tell me anyways, because I want the thought experience because it's going to it's going to get your mind going because we work in these bubbles, you know, and and you need somebody to think outside of the box. And to share a different perspective to help you make new perspectives that are different than the perspective they're sharing. Correct. Yeah, I agree. I don't I don't I don't have a working theory on what the cattle mutilation thing is. Again, my brain goes to, you know, 1990s UFO. Picking up a cow, you know, that's the visual I get. Same thing. You say portal, bam, Rick and Morty appears in my head. Well, whatever it is, the phenomenon is real. It's verifiable. Not every case is, but it absolutely is. What is it? I don't know. I, you know, and I feel like my theories are painfully lacking on what it could what their hypothesis, their hypotheses. And, you know, of course, the brain goes to. You know, I non-human intelligence, but it could be something totally abstract that we don't even know. Absolutely could. Could be some other primitive life form that that is intelligent in its own right. But that has nothing to do with our type of, you know, intelligence. That's so fascinating. I'm very fascinated by all this in terms of other biological anomalies that occur on the ranch. What else sticks out to you? I know you mentioned. You mentioned something about plants. Is there any, you know, flora? So. So one of the things we found, there is a region we call it the runway. And it just the plants grow in what looks like a runway. We don't understand it. And there's a plant. It's called Golden Hairy Aster. It's kind of a wild name there. But it's this plant that grows there. And what we found is on either side of this runway, it was growing normal. And in the runway, it was the leaves were growing. It looked like they had been radiated. They looked, they looked all like withered and like. So when, when radiation hits a life form, it mutates the cells. And, you know, a cell is just, you know, reproduce, reproduce. And if you're get the wrong code, you start growing, you become erratic. Yeah. And erratic. So they were doing that. And I thought, well, could, would the acidity and the alkalinity be different? And so we said, well, it should be in the ground. So we took samples from the ground, from these plants and checked them. The plants themselves and in the ground. And we did find a difference in the alkalinity and the acidity based off of in the runway versus on either side of it. We did find right beside it. And we want to do, we didn't, we want to go back and do this. I want to also test for like isopods and, and, you know, small arthropods in the ground. Let's see. Are they growing differently? Are they affected by this? There's one plant that I love this plant. It's called a desert trumpet plant. It's in the buckwheat family. If you research it, you're going to get a lot of misinformation because it grows in these weird bulbs. And there's this, this one guy like in the seventies wrote and said, oh, this wasp burrows the hole. And then it goes and grows that way. That's not why it grows that way. They do that after the fact, but it's such a strange and specific plant that Star Trek based an alien life form off of it. It's a really cool plant, but it grows in a mathematically perfect way. I wrote up the formula for the growth. Like if you were to code it into a computer and replicate it and on this one part of the ranch, it would grow the first stage normal, go to the second stage normal on the last stage. It went like totally crazy. And the next year they did not. And so if the, so plants grow in stages. And so the assumption is that there was an energetic event that happened kind of like with this golden aster. Something happened that year at this one growth stage. Something did. And that's the same field that the Falcon disappeared on and then reappeared over the triangle. So, you know, so the plants are telling us things too. The plants are, if you look and listen to what they're saying, the plants are, the arthropods are, the frogs are on the ranch. You know, I couldn't talk about the magpie nest. Yeah. Or was that, I think we talked about that breakfast. If you want to go back to that, cause I thought that was really interesting. So on that North South, the path of the skin Walker. Let's, let's lay the land here a little bit. The path of the skin Walker. What is that exactly? And why is that an important place? So without getting too much into politics and again, every tribe is going to share their history through their own voice. But the general, uh, what is told is that in the past, the Ute tribe and the Navajo tribe, the Diné had some beef and had some bad things happen between them. And so the Navajo cursed the Ute with the path of the skin Walker that goes from the South from Navajo land up North to the Ute reservation, which runs right. Right. Through skin Walker ranch and along a very specific path. And the ranch has a fence line going along that path and there's petroglyphs on this path. It's a very specific thing. It's not just too loosely the path of the skin Walker. It's literally walked this path. Yes. Yes. Anything weird happened to you constantly? I mean, that's where, that's where, yeah, that's where we, lots of cattle mutilations have happened there. If you watch the show, the big hole through the tree happened there and the magpies magpies build a really specific nest. They make a, um, like a clay nest, like a Robin, and then they make a stick nest around it with walls and a ceiling and a front door. It's a very specific, very recognizable and on this path in this tree right next to it, they build it, but they build it wrong. Like their orientation is wrong. They're under access is wrong. And so the eggs fall out and they lay more eggs. The eggs fall out. They lay more eggs and they do it every year. They'll build a new nest, same thing, right? And it's all crooked and the eggs keep falling out. So happens again and again and again. Every single time. And what encompasses, do they act up in that area as well? Are there? Yes. Um, so there does seem to be like a geomagnetic anomaly there. Yeah. But the weird thing is like a regular compass will about half the time be messed up there and half the time it works. But if you have a digital compass on your phone, the anomaly is like, oh, really? Who like spin it and make it just do all kinds of crazy things. Meanwhile, you have a real compass and it's like, oh. Okay. I'm messing with you a little, but if it's digital, it has a heyday. It goes wild. Absolutely wild. That's so silly because it shouldn't not. be related no yeah what does digital have to do with it yeah yeah whoa okay so this i mean this is so this makes me want to go out there um do you ever think do like if i if i went there do you think they would they would give me a tour if you if if we connected with brandon yeah i have his phone number yeah yeah we've spoken maybe a year ago because um uh i have some friends out in utah as well and and uh they know brandon they're putting me in touch and whatnot but i know he's a busy guy yeah yeah he's he's really cool and if you can get him and he's busy you know he'd probably be open to that he's it's not just like open for business but of course but he loves to help people get a get a beat on it and understand and help push this information out there so i i think he'd be very open to it yeah be interesting i'd be interested there is the you know the one concern that the audience keeps bringing up with with this stuff as well as friends who talk to me about it and i think it's a really good thing to do and i think it's a really important thing to do and i think it's a really important thing to do and i think it's a really this hitchhiker effect and that is this this idea that by visiting this place you are then opening yourself up to the phenomenon in a way that will follow you uh back to back to your home have you experienced the hitchhiker effect i am one of the only people who has not and i'm grateful for that just about everybody who's who i know of who's like the the main team on the ranch you know there's there's other contractors that maybe come like once a season kind of thing but but um just about everybody i know has had some sort of a skin uh some sort of a hitchhiker effect happened to them and i haven't i've had i think more strange things happen to me on the ranch kind of in the paranormal kind of more of like in the ghostly type stuff than most people have that i've talked to but off the ranch i've had basically nothing what's your explanation for that what makes you immune i i'm not i don't know i don't know i don't i i come in really wanting to understand very much so i don't come in as a believer but as a it's like hey there's something here i want to understand it and i very very much want to understand it and that i mean that's what i love about it for me when i had this opportunity i jumped at it because i thought i don't want an anecdotal story i want to know firsthand i want my own photos my own data that i and for anybody else now it's anecdotal to them i'm sorry and if you don't believe me i don't care that's fine i salute you great you don't believe me fine but i'm sharing i'm just sharing the experiences take it as you will and do what you want with it i'm just reporting back because i've been grateful for this opportunity and i want to share as much of it as i'm allowed to and i want other minds on it i want other people because i mean think about it i'm making assumptions that might not be connected they might have not a jaguar might be totally unrelated it might just be coincidental if there's a jaguar running around up there that could be a totally unrelated thing and then the biologist says oh this is connected maybe it's not yeah and so having other people talking about this and and questioning it is good so you think your open-mindedness is warding off this hitchhiker effect to some extent i think well i think it is instead it is toning down the trickster element i think it i i've had a lot of experience and some of them i don't share publicly that seem to be like it's trying to show me and teach me i've had more teaching experience and i've had more teaching experience and i've had more teaching moments i think um i think a lot of the people have come in with healthy skepticism a lot of them have no background in this kind of stuff you know it's a it's just like raw regular science and and and so they're just highly skeptical which is good well i always say don't don't be a skeptic be skeptical a skeptic is a predetermined i don't believe yeah say uh show me the evidence and let me make my assumption that's good it's good to be skeptical but i think there's so many people come in so brash and and they don't they want to be don't want to be made a fool i don't care to be a fool if i'm wrong oh i was wrong okay let's recalibrate yeah i don't mind being wrong i don't i don't mind that and so i've had a lot of instances where kind of the trickster element i i think among everybody there my phone has been hacked in the least i think it's only happened twice it was like the first season there that's so crazy to me that your phone's been hacked in twice and it's happened the least yeah oh yeah it's yeah people have to read you have to replace their phones if i'm going there with my phone there you're saying there's a 100 chance that my phone will act up yeah yeah yeah it's it especially i would document the hell out of my phone yeah get a second phone and film it exactly or a camera not a phone to film my phone because that'll act up too yeah but yeah and some people it ruins their phone completely and scramble and they have to get a new one um and so you know so you're saying that the phenomenon is obviously aware on some conscious level it behaves that way of what your intention is and it knows ahead of time and so what do you mean it knows ahead of time it it's it somehow it can anticipate if you're going to do an experiment it knows what the experiment's going to be do you ever have things that happen to you before going to skinwalker ranch that are sort of in hindsight you go oh it was preparing me or it was showing me or it was telling me something there's been things that that might just be synchronicity and might be you're seeing what you want to see and i can't rule that out but there's some things where like i'll meet somebody or have a conversation ahead of time and then i get to the ranch it'll feel just totally synchronous lines up which that could just be coincidence could be also like a synchronicity generator happening type thing like i mean i wouldn't completely put it past like if we're also delving into this sort of paranormal or trans-dimensional you know hypotheses then you know the idea that synchronicities might also be enhanced in and around this place and i think would be fair to say absolutely absolutely um okay so the best i'm trying to in my head i'm trying to like build up armor here for for you know an eventual trek to this area and i might you know i i think i do have a healthy balance of uh skepticism but open-mindedness and and um this is actually helping me uh prepare because i hear about these stories and although you know part of me wants to chalk it up to confirmation bias to you know a suggestion the suggestion is very powerful as well like if um if you're completely against being hypnotized and you're like i don't believe in hypnosis and you'll never hypnotize me and then which you're right you won't be able to but then if your best friend who you've known since you were a child i hypnotize them in front of you something in the back of your mind in your subconscious mind that's going to help you just changes yeah you might still say well he's just you know in on it or you'll never get me but something fundamentally changes to where now you're able to being hypnotized yeah and and so i i think about that a lot when this hitchhiker effect occurs and you have these skeptics going in these staunch sort of debunkers and they're the ones who seem to be affected the most and attacked i don't like saying it i mean because i i love everybody who's where everybody i've met out there who works both both the the people doing the research and people doing security and even the film crew you know i've worked with film crews on other projects and it's like there's always some drama right zero drama these are good people they're sincere a lot of them are skeptical too but they're like hey we're just gonna film this and document this good people but i have seen that if if you if you so if you go to the ranch go with a teach me just come with that attitude be like hey i'm i'm skeptical i'm not a skeptic i just want to be a skeptic i want to learn i want to experience i want to feel and i understand i might have a little confirmation bias that might be kind of leading me on i'm aware of that but still teach me and it'll show you things um but if you and like me i mean that's always been my attitude right but like this is the portal story sure yeah let's get into this but this is one of those ones where i kind of questioned it and what happened it was kind of interesting so um me and uh one of my friends charlie we were there and we it was nighttime and i was like oh my god i'm gonna go and we said let's go do some astrophotography and it's a great night milky way out so we went over to this area um and we put up our camera start taking pictures and this isn't important but i shared as part of the story all of a sudden we heard something going along the creek and you know maybe it was just a coyote or raccoon but all the frogs and crickets stopped stop stop and we got this kind of creepy feeling great who cares about feelings feelings but anyways that kind of creeped us out for a bit but then it went away and that feeling got away and went back to normal we got all these great photos we're having a good time and i said you know what charlie sometimes this ranch is really creepy feeling and sometimes like right now it just feels like a regular beautiful old ranch in northern utah he's like yeah i know what you mean like right now it's just a cool beautiful place at night and the second we both said that we hear a sound and it's if you shoot a 22 bullet across the desert that and also been a frozen lake that that breaking sound it was those two you're pretty good at those sounds by the way is those two sounds together and we both turn to it and we look over and about eight nine feet up i don't like 20 30 feet away we see and it had already started we see an expansion ring coming out now it was lit but it was not self-illuminating it was like it was expanding out so fast horizontally that if you ever seen like explosions in slow motion where the shock wave that comes right sometimes compress and make water vapor OK, that's what it was. It was a water vapor ring from the speed of it coming out. And it was illuminated by the stars. It was it looked it wasn't light. It wasn't producing light, but it was reflecting the starlight out. And we're looking, we just see this and we're like, and it was and it probably was about eight, nine, ten feet out when we looked over and it got to about 40 feet. And we said, oh, let's let's get out of here. So we packed up our stuff and we start walking towards Homestead one and the command center right next to each other. We're going towards them. And all of a sudden, the command center, the lights go and go off and then go back on. And Tom came out and he's like, hey, I was looking for you guys. You guys OK? And we said, yeah, the power just went out. He's like, what do you mean? I was in the ranch house. Power didn't go out. No, it went off in the command center. He said, that's impossible. They're on the same breaker. If one goes off, they both. And we're like, we just saw this. And so. I don't know what to make of that, but I kind of take it to mean that the ranch was like, oh, yeah, just a normal ranch. You know better than this. You experience too much already. How dare you say that? I'll show you. Maybe that's not it. Maybe it's totally unrelated to me. When an intruder approaches a home, they expect a camera. What they don't expect. Stop. This is simply safe. Police are on the way. Using smart AI cameras, live U.S. based agents help deter intruders in under 30 seconds. Don't just record a break in. Stop it from ever happening. Plan starting around a dollar a day. Right now, get 60 percent off your new system with professional monitoring at simply safe dot com slash Spotify. 30 seconds response time requires monitoring plan with outdoor protection starting at forty nine ninety nine a month. Visit simply safe dot com slash licenses for alarm license information. Pick a shootout in the West and a boards battle in the East on prize picks. You can make all the picks you want all in the same app. And now. Prize picks is available nationwide. Download the prize picks app today and use code Spotify. That's code Spotify to get one hundred fifty dollars instantly in lineups. If you win your first five dollar lineup prize picks run your game. Visit prize picks dot com for restrictions and details. Explosion out there. Some weird EMP bomb or. Yeah, I don't even know. But whatever whatever it was, I mean, the timing was immediate. And that sound and just that. Expansion and I don't think it was the same thing. But you understand in the Bigelow era that, you know, they they documented vertical portals and things coming through them. So I don't know if that's the same thing, but in hindsight, would you go towards it? I would have now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you told me, hey, you're about to see this and go towards I would have. But I was too spooked at the time. Of course, it shocked me too much. There's things like that. I would have probably had the. Same reaction. Like, let's get the hell out of here. In hindsight, you go, God. Yeah. Should have walked towards it. Well, same thing. We'll hear voices on the ranch. And usually you walk away from them. Sometimes walk towards. What kind of voices? Well, my first one. This was this is at Homestead. It's a Homestead three. It's the far west end of the ranch. And Tom and Candace is my first time there. And they're taking me on a tour around. And there's a Native American medicine man there with us. And he was blessing the dog who lives there. And who had been attacked to the week earlier. And I'm like, what did get attacked by? And they're like, dog wolf thing. I'm like, well, you're going to give me more than that. But I was just getting to know them. I didn't know him yet. So I didn't press it. So that medicine man came to give the dog a blessing. He was in a cone. And so then they're showing me the medicine man or the dog. The medicine man was giving the dog a blessing. The cone was on the dog. Okay. Yeah. And so they took me out. And so we're showing Homestead one, Homestead two and Homestead three. And I was. I don't know, like 30 feet away from them. And they're showing me some stuff. And then I walked away and I was looking out there. And I was just. And I started hearing voices that sounded Native American. I know some Ute. And when I was 18, I was adopted by the Kikri Cherokee tribe. I speak a little bit of Cherokee. Cherokee is not a Utah tribe in any way, shape or form. But I start hearing these voices. And I'm leaning, leaning in. And I started speaking Cherokee at it. And just like, all right, that's my default. It's nothing to do with the Ute language, but I'm like. And those voices were like, and they were like, it was almost like they heard me and couldn't see me. And so I'm like, oh, what is this? And what is these voices? And so I just like kind of like listening, trying to strain in. And Candace goes, Ben, Ben, Ben. And I'm like, yeah. Well, and she's like, are you okay? I'm like, yeah. And I told her what happened. I'm like, why were you so worried? And apparently the week before somebody had been sitting, standing in that exact same spot. And I was like, oh, my God. And had been looking the same direction, had gone catatonic and collapsed and had to be taken off the ranch. And so they were thinking that's what was happening to me. It wasn't. But those were the first voices I heard on the ranch. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. If I, if I, if I witnessed you just starting to speak Cherokee into a dark void, I would also be concerned. Well, and then like my first night on the ranch, this kind of, and again, this is anecdotal story. So, but I mean, this, I'm, I'm sharing. What happened? If you don't believe me, that is fine. Sure. You have your right not to believe me. So, um, at the time, Eric wasn't living on the ranch. He was coming on and off. And so I was in the main bedroom in the command center. And I'm like, this is kind of weird. You don't have internet working there on your phone, even though it's really close to civilization. And I was like, okay. So I'm not really connected to the outside world. I'm alone in this house. Everybody else is in Tom and Candace's house. So I have the lights on in the bedroom. And. I'm like feeling a little creeped out and just feeling a little vulnerable. And so I'm leaning over on my side and I'm just like looking at pictures from the day of the phone. And I got the blankets pulled up on me. And all of a sudden I feel something. I look down and the blankets are getting pulled off. Not like falling off. These are like really coarse, crappy material blankets, not like soft, you know, silky stuff. And it's like something is pulling them off and it goes almost all the way off the bed. And I'm like, nope, nope, nope. So I grab them and I pull it back. I'm like, I just got to ignore this. I can't acknowledge this. And so I'm still looking at my phone again and it starts happening again. And they pull almost all the way off. And I'm like, I literally don't have the brain length waiting to handle this. So I bundled them in my legs and like, and I'm like, no, there's a hundred percent on the bed. Nothing's hanging off the bed. It's in, you're taking me off. If you're taking these blankets off. And I just turned on like a, an audio book and slept with the lights on. Cause I'm like. Yeah. Too freaked out. Yeah. Yeah. It's one of the scariest things ever. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. So all the rest of the nights, I'm like, I need to sleep over here with you guys in the, in the, in the ranch house. And that was even worse because they, it was so hot. They had the door open and they had guns by every door that Tom and Candace made that ranch house. Beautiful. It was like a beautiful hippie place. It had like prisms and all the windows and stuff. When it was sunset, they're like, it's rainbow o'clock, but they had guns by every door because things. They're like, yeah, something came in and attacked the dog from the door. So the screen doors there, the doors open. I'm sleeping on an air mattress in there with these guns and I'm like. Pretty vulnerable. I don't like this. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It's, it's, it's so weird. It's so weird because it, it's so creepy, but it's so beautiful. It seems sometimes so malicious and sometimes it's just, Hey, come and learn, come and learn things. What's your conviction level like before? Uh, and after, are, are you like, did you go in thinking, oh, there's something here and you left thinking, oh, there's definitely something here. Or were you like, I don't really know what to expect. And now you're a hundred percent in like, where's your conviction on a percentage level of the phenomenon being absolutely real that something is interacting with you. Um, so going into it, I think I was maybe 30%, maybe 40%. I thought people think it's up to you. And I think they've inflamed it up. I think it's probably, there's some weirdness going on. It's probably around here and people have, people like a good story. Yeah. That's a healthy way to think. Yeah. And, uh, but now having been on the ranch a hundred percent, 500%, I mean, it's, and the thing that pisses me off scientifically is it makes zero sense. If you said, oh, here's a place where people see Bigfoot a lot. I don't know if Bigfoot's real or not. I've seen Bigfoot and I don't know if Bigfoot's real. Okay. But if you just said that, or here's a place where we saw a UFO. Cool. But what does that have to do with prehistoric animals coming through portals? What does that have to do with cattle mutilations? What does it have to do with decomposition not happening? These things should not overlap. They're weird enough as they are. They shouldn't overlap and they do. And I can verify that for myself. So if nobody believes me, that's fine. I know for myself, cause I've experienced it a hundred percent and I've seen some of the greatest scientists. I've ever had a chance to work with also see this firsthand and to see it, like make them scratch their heads and some of them get attacked, you know? What's the most important discovery during your time there that you think, uh, even outside of yourself, uh, that, that was made while you were there? I, hmm. I, that's, that's a tough one because is it more about what is prof, I mean, I think the fact that we've got UFOs on camera, you know, killing a cow, that, that's not the most important. But. but I think that's pretty low hanging fruit. You know, it's like, UFO killed a cow, cow spirals and goes wackadoodle, and then a dire wolf or something bites through its bone. I mean, it's just an odd chain of things. I think there's a lot of medical physical meta metaphysical things. The fact that there's there does genuinely seem to be portals. The fact that you had lasers stopped. I mean, that that's maybe the fields of science that I'm not in version of the the decomposition thing. It's like shooting a laser at the sky and having it stop or having it split or go into four directions randomly. That's it's a laser. It goes only one direction unless you bend it. That bubble, whatever that dome, that bubble is, it's real. We've dropped things down and have things kind of bounce off of it. We've had drones, you know, when you have the border of it, drones that are trying to do a grid pattern. And I've I've filmed it with my phone. This thing is like boom. It's like it ran into a wall and it's like, oh, and then it has to go back to home base and recalibrate and then go through it. Rockets. You had rockets that, you know, once they hit that go and we've had rockets when they come down and they hit that zone and they stay. Oh, I'm going to sit in one place for 30 seconds on a parachute and then and then go over. We've dropped GPS things in cans out of the helicopter and they seem to bounce off it. I don't understand what it is, but whatever it is, it's really important. The triangle seems to be kind of the center of it. Whatever that is, whatever that zone is. And, you know, we see things going underground. But I mean, and I think on my end, you know, watching a falcon go through a portal and come out the other side, that's that's pretty wild. That's pretty wild. I will. I will give you that. Yeah. All of this seems to be really it's hard to put it into one category. And I think that's probably why, you know, like you said, it's pretty frustrating scientifically. You know, some of this stuff behaves like, oh, it was radiated. Like if you look at the plant life, like you said, like, oh, OK, there does seem to be some correlation here with radiation, whether that's some type of beam striking down, whether it's something in the earth that is there that is causing, you know, is irradiating that area that could also make sense, you know, because if you're mutating cells at a level where you you can see, you know, plants be different, then obviously that might also be true for whatever is living there. Yeah. It might have evolved differently than other predators in that neighboring area. And when we found it on on the elk on the ranch, on the game cameras, they have spots that correlate with almost like if you if you took like a dental x-ray and put it right up at their face and left it on for an hour and then what it does to the skin and what it does to the hair spots on them doing that. We've documented that. But the strange thing is, is a lot of times when you have these spiked radiation levels come back four hours later, it's back to normal. And, you know, yeah, radiation should just be there for another half a million years. Exactly. And it doesn't. And how so is that an issue with the instruments? Was the phenomenon like messing with your instruments to make you think there was a spike? Or did you actually have transient radiating? That's impossible. But is that what happened? We don't know. But the plants definitely do seem to act like it. And again, some of the animals we found, you know, some of the deer and some of the elk. Yeah. We've also found. Or whatever's causing this has similar symptoms to being radiated. Maybe it's some other type of force that we're not familiar with. Correct. Makes some sense. Yeah. And again, some of the animals we see, you know, could they just be enlarged? We found on the game cameras a giant raccoon that's got way longer legs. Everybody thought they're like, is this a bear? And they thought it was a black bear. I'm like, no. And it has this really stumpy tail. And I showed everybody the pictures. I'm like, again, during the Ice Age, we had this giant raccoon called Chapel Melania. And I'm like, OK, is this I'm not saying it is. But if you had like radiation, could this be just a regular raccoon? And they got radiated and this somehow changed to more of a cancerous type growth and more bulbous back and longer legs and this super stumpy tail. But it looked just like, you know, again, if you see this, if you're not if you know biology, but you don't know paleontology, then you don't make this jump. And it's like, well, OK, we we had giant 300 pound beavers, you know, castroides. We had giant raccoons, you know, Chapel Melania that lived alongside the regular ones. Yeah, they didn't turn into this. These are these lived at the top. These are these lived at the same time. These are gone. We had giant jaguars and regular jaguars. The big ones are supposedly gone. Had dire wolves and gray wolves. Dire wolves are gone, you know, but they live side by side. And so you got to make that connection. The ecosystems of North America are not intact. I mean, we should have mammoths and camels and sloths and all these things alongside elk and moose and deer and turkeys and all these things. I can't wait to get some actual, you know, 4K imagery of like one of these things just showing up or even better yet a body. Yeah. You know, that would be that would be the day because I think, you know, something like that then becomes an international. So like, hey, there are things happening on this earth that are apparently natural, apparently, you know, tied to some event that is creating these little pockets. Yeah. Here. I mean, that that itself is equally as fascinating as extraterrestrials to me. It really is. Yeah. You know, it might not catch your imagination as much. But I mean, like we whatever this wolf thing is, you know, we have a good chunk of the body. We have the jaw. We have the DNA sequenced. And it's been compared by the most extensive genetics lab on Earth at the moment by every other canine on the planet and all the different dog breeds, too. And it doesn't match any of them. And it's a tangible evidence. I got it sitting in my house. You know, the jaws sitting in my house. Do you picture that? Yeah. Yeah. And also, I forgot to mention this. Let me make sure I get you a picture of these two. This is another this is this is another weird thing. See, there's little things like this that are actually big. These are big stories, but I forget because it's been years. So many things. So that jaw, I cleaned it off and then I let dermestid beetles at home clean it off further. And then I took it back to the ranch. So I had it in like a little Tupperware, a little Rubbermaid container, no lid, just paper towels. And it's about this deep. And so I show up at the ranch and I said, hey, come on and have lunch. I'm like, I'm going to leave this outside. So when you're walking up the stairs to the trailer, there's a little tape. Table right there. I set it on that table. People are walking in and out past it. I was in there eating lunch for maybe 10 minutes, 12 minutes. And when I came back out, it's covered all over with lacerations, deep incisions. Now, there's some people like, could it have been a rodent? They're not doubled up their individual lacerations. And it's sitting in the exact position when I set it down. It's not like somebody picked it up, cut it and then put it back in all around it. Deep, deep, deep incisions. And I asked around, like, did anybody touch this? I mean, did anybody notice anything? No. And like 10 to 12 minutes eating lunch, people walking past it. And somehow it's covered with lacerations like noticeable. No. Oh, yeah. I'll send you pictures there. They would have noticed that these weren't. Absolutely. Like you would have to like you'd have to do this with a Dremel or to to do these. To do these into the raw bone and have them look like this. You would have had to have done it when the bone was still fresh. Right. Or else it would have cracked. Yeah. And so somehow these are that way. And I got pictures of the job before and and after. And it's like, how did this happen? I have no idea. But deep, deep, deep, these big old lacerations, like something just all over, even on the side, everywhere, all around it. Bizarre. It just happened in those 10 to 12 minutes. So abstract. And yeah. What's the point of that? Yeah. Why would something do that? What does it mean? What is it saying? Is it saying anything? How could it happen? I don't know what. So, you know, the one thing that I I am sort of leaning towards more of now and, you know, you touched on this a little bit. You said as we're as we're looking at things and there's this pendulum swings, you know, we get into science and now we're looking at religion, spirituality. We get too far into religion, spirituality. We're looking at the scientific explanation. There's this there's this ebb and flow of of these two worlds. But something which is more on the spiritual side and something that perhaps being a skeptic myself or skeptical, I've, you know, now as my pendulum is swinging back towards this idea of, OK, there's there's something perhaps tying the spiritual world into, you know, scientific world at the heart of that are these Native American First Nations, indigenous tribes, these these tribes that are that have been here for a very long time. that seem to be at the very root in terms of not only their sort of, for the most part, their lore, they talk about star people, they talk about all these things that we find in so many different religions and that we're looking at now in the sky, we're seeing a lot of these anomalous UAP activity, but we're kind of echoing in our own language what they were saying. And so I think they have so many answers for us. Being someone who was adopted by a Cherokee, what do you make of that? Do you put stock into that as well? I definitely do, especially the tribes in southwestern United States, northwestern Mexico, all the way up to Navajo and Ute, which is Skinwalker Ranch will be the northeastern range of that. Those people, their stories, their legends, there's something to it. And there's something connecting to some of these paranormal phenomenon. And it seems very legitimate. The more and more I study it, and the more and more I learn about it, the more I very much, very much see something with it. And you see that with ancient peoples, you can put it everywhere, like in Australia, the Aborigines, if you look up the Wanjina figures, it's like, they just look like gray aliens. And people say, well, they're water spirits. It's like, you put a gray next to them, and it's like, this is literally the same thing. And they're all over. And those are like 10, 12,000 year old paintings. So the tribes here, absolutely, their stories, there's a story with one of the eastern tribes, one of the eastern hardwood forest tribes, and they have a legend of that there was a child that one of the beings from the sky world came down, fell in love with the woman, and they had a child together. And they said, okay, you have to take care of this child. And don't ever strike the child. If you strike the child, then sky woman is going to take her back. And this child is going to live back with the father and the people he came from. And it's this whole story. And they still, but the grandma did like scold the child and, you know, gave him a whack. And so they took him away. And even if that's legend, a legend can be based off of something. And so the people today, they still all will have these ceremonies where they cry and give mourn and sorrow for this sky child that was taken back up to live with this rain spirit that, you know, took him up. So you might just be making an incorrect connection, but you're also stupid if you dismiss it. It's like, listen to the legend and let it percolate. Think about it. It's like, okay, this is gives me a greater worldview. And maybe we can make some connections of understanding. Do you think they're, do you think they know more than they're letting on? Because I know that a lot of these communities are very tight knit as well in that, you know, they don't just give information freely to outsiders who are, who are coming in. And that's just what, and you have to, even if you wanted to tell a story, you'd have to get approval from like the elders or like the chief or like whatever it is, you'd have to go to the community and be like, can I tell the story? Can I give them this information? So do you think there's still a lot that they're kind of keeping secret? I think that in general, loosely, in general, yes, with all the tribes, but very specifically Southwest tribes and Southwest United States, Northwestern Mexico, we, in archeology, we call it the Southwest Northwest region. Those people absolutely have things that they, you know, and occasionally you'll get them to explain a little, allude to it. And again, they're using terms that, you know, are mythological in the vocabulary, but it's very much very literal on how they, and when they'll leak some of it out and tell you a little about it, it's like, oh, that's exactly fits in with this or that, that we see in some of these events. And it lines up, you know, the, the timelines aren't perfect. You know, oral histories are oral histories. They're not going to be perfect. They're going to change a bit. And what you end up with is you have primordial time. So like, if I said, when was Jesus born? That's a historical question, whether Jesus or not was real. It's a historical question. If I say, when was Zeus born or when it was Horus born, that's, that's, that's primordial time. That's time before time. And that's when these legends take place. They could be, you know, the future, the past, a million years ago, 10 years ago in, in the stories, they're told that way, just like when was Zeus born? It doesn't matter. It's an, it's, and that's how these stories are, but they have truth in them. They have deep truth in them. And it is true that there is a lot that is, especially in those Southwest Northwest tribes, there is a lot that only, you know, there's a lot that is, you know, there's a lot that is, only gets leaked out. And when it does, you're like, yeah. And that might be the reason why skin Walker ranch is so interesting because it is where science and spirituality intersects. We're talking about these ancient tribes that there's, you know, burial grounds there. There's curses, there's these legend and lore that's present in this area. And now we have the world's leading scientists, the world's government, like the biggest, you know, militarized government in the world. Mm-hmm. Turning their attentions to this, you know, tribal land here that's sacred. And now we're finally like the pendulum seems to have met in the middle here at skin Walker ranch. Yeah. And, um, it's interesting to see what'll come from that, but I do feel in my gut that as long as we measure with the instruments that we're familiar with, we'll only get undetermined answers. Mm-hmm. And then that will have to start. To start, you know, adapting the other way and look inwards and have these other, uh, these other ways of measuring things. Mm-hmm. Well, and you have to, you, it's okay to be skeptical, right? Um, and it's okay to say, show me the evidence, but it's like, if you see some evidence, you, it does, you don't have to have a conclusion, but you at least have to acknowledge this is some evidence, you know, like when the, the rabbi did the prayer on the ranch and all of a sudden all at homestead to all of the colors start, the, the thermal imaging cameras just changed everything. Or when they brought that tribe out and they did a drum circle there and all of a sudden like these orbs were coming into the Mesa on camera, it's like, okay, I don't know what that means, but you have to at least say, this is a thing that happened. I'm going to put it in my brain and I'm going to factor it in. Don't just dismiss it, you know, and we may not know what it means. And just because you don't know what it means, that's okay. You don't have to be like, therefore it's stupid. No, don't dismiss it. Just log it in there and keep that as part of the information. Should get people to do like some ayahuasca ceremonies there or something. I feel like you'd probably get some interesting. I think they need to. I think they, and I wonder if that may have happened, um, Off camera. Off camera with, without me around. Yeah. Um, I know Eric and I really want to do a lot of experiments growing mushrooms and also have people. Yeah. Psilocybin and yeah. Um, I, I mean, I'd be down to experiment with that as well. I think that would be like a heck of a place where you get tuned into some, you know, wild frequencies. Yeah. I think it would, I think, I think it should be done. Yeah. It should be done in a controlled setting where, you know, dose set and setting have it be very safe and have people there to make sure it's done well and right, but also to make sure it's not too clinical to be like, Hey, we're open to learning. We want to learn. We got people here to make sure it's safe, but I'm using locals perhaps in their own methods. And, you know, I think it would be really, really wise to do that. And that would be an episode of skin Walker. I'd love to watch. I'll tell you that right now. That would be great. Actually, that would be incredible. If Brandon, if, if you're listening and you ever need, uh, somebody to help set it up, I'd be more than happy to, to throw my name in the hat. Um, Ben, I'm going to grab a, I'm going to turn, turn this camera on back here. We got some questions from the audience that I'd love to ask you. That was great. All right. All right. So if you're a member here at area 52, you get access to a lot of perks. One of the main perks here that a lot of people seem to like is the possibility of asking our guests a question. So I informed them 24 hours ahead, uh, usually 24 hours and, uh, and they get to ask us some questions. And then I cherry pick from those. And often I'll tell you collectively their questions are better than mine. I mean, they're, you know, a bunch of really interesting, intelligent people coming together, asking questions. It's, it's, it's the greatest way to answer the best questions. Um, so I encourage you guys to do that if you are a part of the membership already. All right, here we go. Interesting question here by Michelle L. P. So this question asks, is there video evidence of active portals at the ranch that is being suppressed? Um, I don't know if it's being suppressed, but I think, uh, suppressed seems kind of nefarious. Uh, I know there is footage from the Bigelow era and I believe we have footage now. I mean, there's things we have seen with the bubble, um, that have shown that, um, I believe that things have been documented currently that might not be in circulation. Um, but I think suppressed is a more of a nefarious term that I would, would use, but I think it's, there's some that is being held classified. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that, uh, that there's, there's some evidence that is being suppressed? Thank you. Because, I mean, you, you have, we've documented, you know, with LiDAR and with different scans, we have absolutely verified, you know, portals, you know, through that triangle area. We've absolutely had, and that's been made public. So I think there's more to it than that. But, and I know the Bigelow era stuff is not all come out. Do you think it will eventually, or is that just because it's government? I don't think, I probably not for 50 years. Probably not, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're probably right. Okay. Good question, Michelle. We got another one here. The real cost of a break-in isn't your valuables. It's the feeling that your home stopped being safe. SimpliSafe keeps danger away from your family with three layers of protection. One, smart AI cameras and live US-based agents help stop intruders before they break in. Two, we sound the alarm at points of entry. Three, our agents request emergency response. Plans starting around a dollar a day. Right now, get 60% off your new system with professional monitoring at simplisafe.com slash Spotify. Outdoor deterrence plans start at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com slash licenses for alarm license information. Download the PrizePix app today and use code SPOTIFYED, that's code SPOTIFYED, to get $150 instantly in lineups if you win your first $5 lineup. By Perry here, he says, if you had the ultimate evidence, biological or otherwise, to whom would you present it? The greatest number of people possible. Whatever would be the greatest way to get it out there to the world. Right here on Area 52. Yeah. That's what I want as many people. I don't want to guard the information. I want people. I want other minds thinking about it. People to be aware, talking, discussing, and all of us collectively to move forward and move upward and get new thinking on it. Do you think that any of that scientific evidence is currently being withheld because of the filming of the show? Do you think that any of that should be made public? I think so. Yeah. There's some things that are just. Anecdotally held back. Just it's like, OK, well, maybe we're going to put this in later season. And that's I mean, that's why I want to be here is to get some of this out. So, yeah, some of it for very simple and not not very important reasons are held back. Really? Yeah, because we're not all there all the time. There's nobody's there all the time. It's somewhat compartmentalized. And so depending on what experiments are happening, what days, some of the really big stuff doesn't come out till later. And I've had people behind the scenes tell me that some of the stuff maybe doesn't come out fully at all yet. And some of the bigger, more, I don't want to say scary, but more profound things they kind of sit on and process, like, what do we do with this information? So so some of it, again, just for basic filming reasons. But some of the things happen because, again, this is a year round thing. Yeah, absolutely. Really? Absolutely. Yeah. A hundred percent are a hundred percent are there that you even see some of. That on the show, you'll see snippets that show that. But yeah, there's absolutely. I mean, the first season, Travis had to break his NDAs to tell the Department of Defense like, hey, there might be getting hacked here by either foreign entities or foreign governments. And I got to break this NDA and say that. So there's absolutely things that are held back. A hundred percent are. Wow. Interesting. I'll be excited to hopefully find out what that is one day, maybe in person. All right. Thanks. Probably something we touched on. This is while working on the ranch. Was there a fundamental biological theory that you felt was challenged? And I mean, this is by Thomas Tom 10. I would assume decomposition being, you know, the big one. But was there a specific theory that you felt was being challenged? I think the big. Yeah. The biggest one is the toponomy, you know, the the the the science of decomposition, both, you know, I mean, that even goes back to paleontological times, ancient times. Yeah, that would be the big thing of how things decompose and what happens postmortem. You know, the cow contorting into the dinosaur death pose. That's also a taphonomical scientific thing that is being challenged the way the way tendons and ligaments attach and the way they dry out. It's a it's a cut and dry way. You can only fit a puzzle in a certain way. That should not have happened. And it seemed, oh, the cow spiral, you know, so that the taphonomy of the ranch absolutely challenged and also the existence of animals that shouldn't be there. That's another biological presence that absolutely challenges my my understanding of the modern world. Have you found any clues into the study of the tissue that might answer some of that? Some of those questions? No. No, it just seems all frozen. What do you mean frozen? Any tissue samples we've checked, it's like it's dead. It's like it's frozen in time. But then it should be decomposing. If you have cells that are no longer moving, they're not, you know. There's no indicators telling you why it's not decomposing. Yeah. External bacteria as well is not chomping on it. So the cells themselves are not and the external bacteria is not. And critters aren't either. And there's nothing. There's nothing that tells you why that is. There's no chemical. No. There's no radiation. There's no. Nope. There's nothing. There's nothing. There's no presence of anything. It makes no sense. Yeah. Yeah. And again, and a scavenger shouldn't know. A scavenger should come along and say, here's something. And I'm going to take. Why does it? What does it sense? Yeah. When we see them on camera, when we have cameras on them, then they are like, huh. They kind of like back away. There's something about it. There's something that repulses them. Something that they see that we can't see or feel or sense. Yeah. Wow. It's interesting. It just shows you how much we don't know. Mm-hmm. Okay. This last question here by Majestif12. What's the biggest misconception the public has about what's actually happening there? I think the perception is. You go there. Well, you know, I would have said originally that, hey, all this stuff is happening all the time. And that, you know, there's always UFOs and stuff. And I would say, no, it's more staggered. But that's actually not true. Because the longer I've been there and longer these Brandon Fugel era experience have gone on, it has amped up. It has. There's. I've never been to the ranch where something has not happened. How long do you go for when you go there? I mean, it might be a day. It might be a week. Oh, and still. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Even a day. Every single time I go there, there's always something. Every day that I go there, there's something that happens. There's always something. Something that we pick up, an experiment that there's always something strange. It always delivers for me. I know other people. But I mean, I'm looking to, you know, I'm coming at this from a biological and a paleontological approach, which is different. Where if you're, I don't know, like if you're doing security, your job is to protect the people and make sure people are safe. And so things still happen. Happen to them, too. You know, and their phones are still getting hacked as well. But there has never been a time that I've been on the ranch where I haven't had several things happen. Hundred percent of the time. Wow. Very interesting. Indeed. Ben, if people want to get in touch with you or if they want to ask you questions or if they want to look at some of your work, like what's the best way to do that? So the best way is I run several YouTube channels. The best ones are Desert Lore, which I teach all kinds of ancient history. I do exploring archaeology, stuff like that. And Ben Woodruff Falconry. And that's not just falconry. It's all kinds of things. And then at the Hutchings Museum, I run that YouTube channel. You can also find me on Facebook. And I always say, if you can't get a hold of me, just keep after me till you do. I'm super busy and scatterbrained. So just keep after me till you reach me. Well, you've been a pleasure and a joy and a really, really you've been just great at answering these questions for me. And obviously, I think putting me over the edge, piquing my curiosity about. Skinwalker Ranch, just that much more were maybe the push that I needed to investigate this for myself one day. Yeah, we've got to get you out there. Yeah, well, I appreciate you. I appreciate the offer and I appreciate you coming here and sharing all this with us. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. Thanks. Bye. We have no stores. No, it's not. It's just. weather. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available. See mintmobile.com. Traditional home security only alerts you after a break-in, and that's too late. SimpliSafe is changing that. Stop. This is SimpliSafe. We don't just alert. We help stop crime before it starts. Plan starting around $1 a day. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. Visit SimpliSafe.com slash licenses for alarm license information.