"Skinny Bob is Real" – Lifelong Abductee Reveals Everything - Erik Nanstiel | DEBRIEFED ep. 85

Tickets to the It's Probably Nothing live show are now available, link below. As soon as I decided I wanted to wake up, an image flashed into my head of a green maple leaf with the sun above it shining down through it. And I could see the gossamer structure of the leaf. And there was like this really sickly music box type music playing. It felt like it was meant to distract me, to dazzle me. And as fast as I could turn my head to the left, I saw them. Four small creatures. They whooshed out of my room. Whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh. If you ever saw the Skinny Bob footage, which was supposedly Soviet footage, that was them. The four little Skinny Bobs. Exactly like that? Exactly like that. Yeah, this is part for me of the most fascinating part of your case because. It's such a crude and strange moment. You decided, hey, if something's entering my room, and if something is tampering with my things or with me, potentially, why not try to communicate with them? I created a poster. I want to remember your visit. Let me remember you. I will not harm. In big block letters on an 8.5 by 11 poster. I printed it out and I taped it on my wall above my headboard. Two weeks later, something happened. And I woke up in my garage. And I was suspended off the concrete floor. And I was tilted forward at a 25, 30 degree angle. And I was looking down at one of those little Skinny Bobs. Do you think they're evil? I think they're desperate. I think that they're trying to survive. And I think they want to come here. I think they want to live here on our planet. And they can't do so without borrowing heavily from our gene pool. I think they want to come here. The word abduction itself doesn't encompass the loss of agency. You know, and to be shown children I can never touch or love or hold or know. That just makes me shake with anger. You know, I hate these people. I hate them. Hi, Chris. My name's Terry. I'm probably going to regret this, but here it goes. In 1969, while working at a venue in San Francisco called the Family Dog and the Great Highway, I got involved with a conversation with a gentleman who had walked off the street who started explaining that there were these beings that existed here at a higher vibrational level. He said that they had a physical existence, but they were out of our range of perception. And then he looked at me and said, They'd like to speak to you if you're interested. I thought the guy was out of his mind, but I also thought, being a 17-year-old, that, yeah, it's true, it could be neat. If you're interested in hearing what happened after that, let me know. Eric Nance-Steele, thank you so much for joining me today in the Skiff. And I just finished reading your book. It was a really interesting and incredible story of alien abduction, of an ongoing, what seems to be like this progressing, ongoing experience that you keep having to relive. And today I want to talk to you about the origins of that, how we got into that, and then based on your experiences, what your theories are. Absolutely. And thank you for having me. You know, it's not every day we get. I get to speak to experiencers, and that's one of the things that I think draws me to this book, like many others, whether it's, you know, Whitley Strieber, I mean, Betty Andreessen, Travis Walton, so many others, is, you know, we can learn a fair amount of things from whistleblowers or from observations in the sky or FLIR footage. But you can't learn about their culture. You can't learn about their origin. You can't learn truly about, you know, their technology unless you speak to an experiencer, and then that gives you some type of glimpse into their world. I agree. Although a reluctant glimpse, I'm sure, at times. But for you, this all started when you were just a baby. That's right. It started for me when I was a baby, but it started for my mother in the 1950s. But I'll start. I'll start with myself. In 1970, I was, I want to say about spring, like April, May of 1970, I was about 15, 16 months old, and it started with these white orbs of plasma that would enter my room. I was, I remembered it because this happened so often, it just kind of burned into my memory. Normally, I wouldn't remember anything from my infancy. But in this case, I do. And I remember standing up in my crib, you know, with the wooden bars and just holding on to the railing and looking at my closet. And as I did, this white plasma orb, it was like glowing bright, just came right through my bedroom closet door and crossed the room at about the speed of an adult walking. And it came up to my forehead, touched my forehead, and I lost consciousness. And this happened on a nearly monthly basis for four years. You didn't remember this until you were like a little bit older, right? Or you remembered it, you just hadn't made the ET connection. Absolutely. I told my mother about it when I was old enough to talk about it because it happened up until the age of five. It stopped happening probably in late 1974. And my mother. Which, this freaks me out because she didn't tell me this until like the last couple of years when I was writing the book. My mother told me that in 1974, she had recurrent nightmares, dreams of running through the neighborhood from a friend's house to try to get home. It was her and my father and myself. And I, you know, at that time was only five. And as we're. We're running home, these hundreds of white orbs would descend from the sky and chase us. And we're trying to like duck through the backyards and hide behind sheds and things like that in her dream. And an orb would catch up to us and shine a beam of light down on us. And. This is something she told you? Yeah. Wow. She had these dreams. I was seeing orbs in my waking consciousness, in my waking life, in my bedrooms as a kid. And it happened. All the time. It happened so often, I developed a fear of closets. But it wasn't just a closet. Sometimes it would come through like the knee wall by the ceiling. Sometimes just through the wall, through a window. But usually through. What color orbs? Closet door. White, bright white. Bright white. About the size of a softball. Wow. About this big. And so every time my mom had this nightmare about the orbs catching up to us, I would be taken. Hmm. She's having nightmares. She's having nightmares about me being taken when I'm seeing these things actually visiting me in my waking life. I don't remember being taken anywhere back then. I would go unconscious. And when I wake up again. Everything was normal. I'm back. Yeah. Back to normal. Right. And then, you know, sometimes you might dismiss it as a dream at the time. But I know the difference between being awake and having a vivid dream. Um, there's. It's so different. Yeah. And so I know when I'm awake. Um, so. But that wasn't my mother's first experience. If she's having these nightmares about orbs chasing us, that tells me that her subconscious mind is suppressing memories of some kind. Because I was. I was still too young. Like, I wasn't really talking about the orbs. I mentioned them once or twice. And my mom said, oh, they're probably just angels. And you're special. And they're just visiting you. And I'm like, oh, I'm special, you know? Angels visit me. Great. Right. I don't believe that anymore. Yeah. I take it in the context of my abduction encounters that I had later on. Um, so. But for my mother, all this started back in 1953 when she was nine years old. She lived in Turtle Creek, Pennsylvania, which is a suburb outside of Pittsburgh. Um. Her family lived in a small home on top of Rose Hill on Cluckston Avenue. It's, um. It's a narrow street with houses on one side and a view of a valley pretty far below of a massive train yard. And, um. There was one summer night. I think it was in July. I'm not sure. I don't remember what she told me. I might have put it in the book. But her brother saw a UFO at night flying over the valley. And it was, you know. you know, circular. and lights and um and it was it was moving laterally you know it was moving parallel to the you know the the valley and uh kind of stopped above their house and then they were looking at it and then it just it was gone just up and gone um so they ran into the kitchen and my mother was in there and this was close to bedtime they ran in the kitchen my mother and her her little brother billy was in there and uh and her and um this was dick and don and they came in hey mom betty n we saw a ufo flying over the valley and then so they described it and then so everybody ran outside to go take a look at this ufo it was gone um but uh my mom didn't get to see it however that night about 2 30 in the morning now she had her own bedroom she was the only sibling that had her own bedroom because there was a eight kids and and she was the only young female uh so she had her own bedroom all the other kids that were still in the house were uh sharing a bedroom in the front well anyway she snuck she she woke up in the middle of the night at 2 30 a.m and she felt compelled like she had to go check on something down in the basement which was at the time just a dirty coal cellar i mean just you know and there's a couple of laundry machines down there and that was it um there that's no place for a nine-year-old girl at 2 30 in the morning no yeah yeah but she felt compelled that she had to go check on something she didn't understand like it felt urgent um so she got up she snuck downstairs went down the stairs and through the dining room through the kitchen turn on the light above the you know by the the basement door open the door and the light illuminated the the stairs just to the base of the stairs no further beyond that was shadowed blackness and so she got about i don't know three or four steps down before she noticed uh some shapes coming out of the darkness and uh they turned out to be two very large german shepherds and they were growling and snarling at her and she was frightened and she didn't have german shepherds no no they had a definitely a far cry from a german shepherd right right and and and why would they be in the basement of 2 30 at night right um and this is your impression um you know traveling a little further in time here but this is a screen memory i believe it was a screen memory yes because i'm taking it in the context of everything everything that's happened later yeah it only makes sense that her that night yeah and and she's having this really weird encounter in the basement the dogs lunge at her and she passes unconscious and then when she wakes up again she's back in her room yeah no no scratches so bite marks right right so at the time she just wrote it off as a dream forgot about it she didn't think about it again until the 2020s when my encounter started happened so regularly that i was actually waking up and seeing you know what was going on with me and where i was and who i was interacting with you know that was happening so often so i started to tell my family like hey these things are happening to me and and when i told my mother that sometimes the grays when i would see them sometimes at first they would appear like humans or i would believe that they're human like a post-hypnotic suggestion kind of a thing and then later on when i'm back at home and i wake up um the visual memory of what i actually saw is what i remembered um must have been very confusing right right to try and figure that out and try to map that out in your own memory and then when i woke up i was like oh my god i it's like i was talking to my brother ron last night but no that was that was a it had the big eyes and a gray face you know it was a small gray um you know so things like that so eventually uh i i was telling my mom about these screen memories and then that just clicked something in her head and i told her about whitley streber with the owl with the barn owl yeah um through the kitchen window i mean so many so many reports of whether it's deer uh owls yeah i mean many types of even you know different people children like there's all types of strange screen memories and i think for the most part what stays with people when they hear about these things is the absurdity of what they're seeing right because there is there is this idea okay maybe you did see an owl or maybe you did see a dog but you're like no there's an abstractness to what i'm seeing and it's misplaced it's not supposed to be here and that's where it almost seems like there is a sort of disconnect between you know whatever technology or telepathic ability they're using to potentially project a screen memory they don't fully understand what's normal right and they're and they're projecting some strange you know event where we're seeing it as like highly anomalous like why would i be in uh in the air traffic control tower surrounded by windows in this round room yeah with with a baby well yeah 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some type of healing event what you perceived as a potential ability to heal another child in the hospital is that fair to say yes this happened in 1974 in parkridge illinois at lutheran general hospital i um i was in for observation related to an injury i sustained in a bouncy house at adventureland which uh bouncy houses were not ubiquitous back in the early 70s they only had them at theme parks so before anybody objects oh you couldn't have been in a bouncy house those are a new thing they're not um i got trampled and um and i i had a concussion and so i was being observed for some minor seizure activity i outgrew it a few years later but um while i was there uh on my last day i remember um it was late and i was starting to get drowsy but i was still awake very awake and i was i was looking at the i was closest to the to the hallway door and the bathroom and tommy the my roommate uh he was closer to the windows so it was a two-bed room and he was he was he had some kind of sepsis going on he had a infected abscess in his abdomen and it was all the way up around his heart and lungs and he had 110 fever um well they would vary between 105 and 110 and uh i don't remember his last name but his name was tommy and um my mother's told me this story so many times that's why i remembered it but um you were how old i was five okay and i the night before it was time for me to leave because i was there for like four days tommy was there for one or two days um the night before i was to leave um a white orb came through the the the hallway door into the hospital room this is that night this was at night yeah and and uh it was lights out you know we were just time for bed and uh Do you remember waking up? I was awake. You were awake. You were not asleep? Yeah. There was too much noise in the hallway. I wasn't ready to fall asleep. Right. But I was quiet and I was just kind of like lazily staring at the window until I fell asleep. But I remember the door had a window with the reinforced wire mesh inside and white linen curtains hanging over it. And so the orb came through that and came to my bed and touched my forehead and I was instantly asleep, unconscious. And I woke up the next morning and the nurse came in to help me prepare to leave. And so I used the washroom, got dressed, and my mother came for me. And Tommy's mother was there. She never left. She never left her son's side. She slept there all night with him because he was deathly ill and probably expected to die. I assumed he was going to die. Nobody told me that, but I expected it. And I was kind of afraid of him. And like emotionally, I couldn't handle being around somebody who was dying. I was a five-year-old, very impressionable. Yeah, didn't really comprehend the. Right. I just didn't. I was just like, I don't want to be near him. And so my mother came with a toy truck and she wanted me to give it to Tommy. And I told her, Mommy, I don't want to talk to him. He's going to die. And my mom said, Honey, you have to say goodbye to him. And so I said, Okay. That's a nice thing to do. So I took the truck from her and I walked over to Tommy's bed and he had a little three set of stairs, a wooden stairway that the kids used to climb up into small children climb up into the bed because the beds were kind of high. And I knelt beside him and he was so weak. He was looking at me like listless, you know, and I set the little toy truck next to his head, next to his pillow. And I said, This is for you. And I knew he wasn't going to play with it right there. But just a thought came into my mind right then. And I'm like, I don't even know why. It was just instinct. I just spread out my hands like this and I placed my hands on his abdomen, his torso, and I just moved my hands up and down his body. And I said, There, now you're going to be all better. And meanwhile, my mother. And Tommy's mother were near the door conferring with each other and looking at me and like, What's he doing? It's kind of weird. So I said, There, now you're going to be all better. And I hopped down off the bed and my mother and I were about to leave. I ran down the hallway. You remember saying that to him? I remember saying that to him. Yes. And then but my mother told me something. I said when I was in the hallway, she said I was looking at my hands. I said, I have magic hands. Well, I don't remember. I don't remember saying that, but she remembers I saying that. Okay. That I said that. So apparently they had exchanged numbers, my mother and Tommy's mother. And so I don't know if it was like a week later, but Tommy's mother called my mom and said they took her son in for testing to see like how they're going to try to save his life because he was laying on like an ice bed overnight to try to get his body temperature down. Yeah, right. You know, because it was so high. And. But his fever had already broken when the doctors came for him and they ran some tests and the abscess was completely gone. All that infected goop that was in there, gone. And so Tommy's mother was pretty excited. She called my mom and she told him, you know, it's a miracle. Wow. He didn't didn't require surgery or anything. I don't know if they really scheduled him for surgery, but I kind of assumed. I assumed they would, but he didn't need it. Do you ever follow up with your mom into like who this person was and did she have the number still or? No, no. I mean, back then all the, all the phone numbers in Chicago were 312 area code. They only had one area code. So the number wouldn't be good anymore. And this isn't something your mom would have told you just to make you feel good. No, she, she told me it was probably years later that she told me what her, what Tommy's mother said. Wow. Um, so, but then, uh, later that year, my grandfather, uh, my mom's father, uh, Sidney, um, came to visit, uh, cause he, he'd never visited Chicago before. Um, they didn't have a lot of money, so they didn't do a lot of traveling, but he wanted to visit Chicago and he wanted to visit his son in California. But while he was in Chicago, he became very sick. He had COPD. And he was dying on our living room rug. It was a blue rug, like a textured rug. And, um, and I remember the paramedics had been there and there were like all these needles all over the floor. But, um, he told my mom he wanted to live one more year so he could go out to California and visit his son. I think, uh, his son, Jim. And, uh, so I knelt down beside him and I put my hands on him too. And, uh. And, uh, his medical emergency just ceased to be. And, and he was okay. Um, and he lived for almost exactly one year, like within a week. Um, and he got to go to California and visit his son. And I never healed again. I never did it again. I never tried it again. Um, I don't think I have it anymore. I think it, it was related to the activity I was experiencing with those orbs. From the orb. Yeah. Like it was somehow. Um, instilled within you for that small, finite amount of time for some reason. Yeah. Do you think Tommy might've grown up to be somebody really important perhaps? No, I. I mean, what else would there. I think it's connected to innocence. I think, I think. Sure. You have, you have access to a higher consciousness within you when you're innocent and you're not so jaded and cynical from adult life. Yeah, I could see that. As I am. Yeah. So, um, I, I don't think I have it. What do you make of, um. Um, you know, tangent here, but what do you make of like the Chris Bledsoe stuff? Uh, honestly, I haven't looked into him too closely. Cause there's a lot of obvious crossovers here with orbs being present and then healing. Um, you know, he writes in his book that he was able to, and this was corroborated actually by Grant Cameron, who was here on this podcast that he was able to heal his dog Nellie from, you know, when she was like spurting blood across the house and just putting his hands on the dog. And then another instance of him healing a child. That was pretty much, um, make a wish kid and very little time to live, had like intestinal problems. And then after his visit, those went away, you know, after he laid his hands on the child. And, um, and then, you know, many people have claimed since then as well to have had some miraculous intervention due to, you know, whether it's him praying or him like being involved. Do you think that something like that? That is legitimately from visitation. Do you think like, do you think this is possible? Like, well, I believe that some people have the ability to heal. Um, I think it's a real thing without ET intervention. I don't know. Right. All I know is that I've had visits and I've had healing episodes and, and later on in life in the 2020s, I was healed. Right. Um, in, in a facility that they had me in. We'll get to that. Yeah. Um, then you have like books like, uh, Preston Dennett, who you mentioned in your book as well. And, and he's got a book where he covers 300 healing cases of orbs or ET phenomenon. Um, and just so many of the same type of story, especially in hospitals, a lot of times in hospitals, surprisingly, where you have these orbs floating in and being witnessed and just kind of healing people. Do you think. Was there ever. At any point in your life where you got confirmation that those orbs were related to the later sort of grays, uh, inner, uh, interacting with you. When I came upon a realization that that was connected to the abductions I was going through, it was only after watching an episode of ancient aliens where they, where they, uh, showed the, uh, the cast, uh, live on stage at an alien con. And somebody was talking about orbs and they were, they also had abduction encounters. So they saw orbs and then. I see. So I'm like, those are connected. And, and then it just started to click, you know, and then, um, my mother later told me about her episode in the 1950s because I was telling her about these screen memories. Cause I started to look into it cause I, it was happening so often and I wasn't believing what I was seeing, but then eventually those screen memories stopped working on me because that's something that they. Impose upon you through some kind of post-hypnotic. Some illusory sort of field. Yeah. They, they just make you think you're seeing familiar types of people, familiar types of places, you know, where I think I'm in a hospital or I think I'm in a air traffic control tower or someplace like that. And as soon as you see past the veil, it's really hard to keep that, keep that charade up. It stopped working on me. So I was visually seeing either a tall gray or small grays. Um, sometimes. sometimes both in the same room. That's interesting because we talked about this at dinner last night, but it is one of those things where as a magician myself, I've been able to use hypnosis for entertainment purposes. I have friends who are some of the best hypnotists in the world, entertainment hypnotists, not clinical hypnotherapists or anything, but can do some of the most incredible things to the human mind and make you perceive certain things through different stages of suggestion. The interesting notion, though, is that as a magician, I am ironically disillusioned by this because I know how it works. So I do. There is some susceptibility here. There is like a layer that I can no longer be sort of hypnotized by. And so I understand the idea of seeing a screen memory or something, some veil and then seeing past it and then being like, oh, is that all it is? And then once you have that information, you can no longer go back like someone who's readily read into how to hypnotize people, whether clinically or whether, you know, for entertainment does have an edge on not being hypnotized. I think the tall grays are stronger at it. The ability to impose screen memories stronger at it than the stronger psychically. Yeah. Yeah. The short grays almost every time I've seen. There was there was no no costume. Yeah. No, it was just them. Yeah. OK, so let's get into that. I think the first your first run in was 1994, if I'm not mistaken. The first run out. Right. The first that I remember where I actually saw grays was in 1994 was in Wheeling, Illinois. I had I was sharing a two bedroom apartment with my childhood best friend, Joe, and he wasn't there that week. But this happened on August 20th, 1994. It was a Saturday. I looked it up and I remembered it was the third Saturday of the month. That's why I looked it up and found out it was August 20th. But it was, I don't know, maybe 630 in the morning. The sun was coming in and I was aware that that the morning light was in the room and I had become conscious in my sleep. So it was a it was a lucid dream state. But I wanted to wake up. And so, you know, I had plans that day and I was actively thinking about those plans while my eyes are closed. I'm like, all right, I'm going to wake up and and, you know, take care of business. And I couldn't open my eyes. And then I'm like, wait, that's weird. So I tried to move my body. I couldn't move my body. I'm like, all right, is this later on? I'm like, was it? It was like, could that have been a sleep? I mean, it kind of fits the symptoms. But as soon as I decided I wanted to wake up, an image flashed into my head of a green maple leaf with the sun above it shining down through it. And I could see the the gossamer structure of the leaf, the cells and the veins. And I was rotating underneath the the leaf itself. And it was just just a sick melody that I it was disturbing. It almost felt like a horror movie, but it felt like it was meant to distract me, to dazzle me, you know, like dangling keys in front of a baby kind of a thing. So I started to panic. And at first I couldn't move. But then I started to shake and I felt the bed shaking underneath me. And I was finally able to pop open my eyes, sat up straight in bed. And as fast as I could turn my head. And as fast as I could to the left, I saw them four small creatures, the ashen gray bulbous heads, big black eyes, dark coveralls from their head down from their neck down to their their feet. And they whooshed out of my room. Like they were propelled. They weren't running. They were moving too fast for something so small to run. They were propelled like like. And the way they accelerated, it was kind of like. They were at the end of a taut bungee cord that was snapped loose and it just accelerated right out right through my bedroom door, which was closed. I don't know why they chose the door. I guess they could have gone through the wall, but they went through the door. At this point, you're wide awake. Oh, yeah. And freaking out. This is not one of those moments where you wake up twice. No. You're wide awake in your bed and you're seeing this. Yeah. As fast as I could turn my head. You know, if I had turned my head ever so slightly slower. I would have missed them. But you got a good enough glimpse. Yeah. And and it kind of burned in my memory. So then I started I'm like, those those look like little gray aliens. So I started like reading. So I I didn't do a lot of reading, but I read about the Betty and Barney Hill case and I was interested in that. And and there was a lot of Bob Lazar stuff going on in 1994, you know, videos that you could rent at the video store. And they came out. They came out with that testers model kit and I bought one of those. And so I was interested in it in the mid 90s for a while as a result of seeing them in my room. This was after seeing them. Yeah. Not before. After. Yeah. But I did not. Was there was there any interest before? Were you at all like did you have a mental image of what a gray looked like or like were you seeking them out in any capacity? I did because I saw Whitley Strieber's book like five years before that. And I was like, oh, my God, I don't know what I'm going to do with this. And I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do with this. Well, because the skin tone isn't great. It's not an accurate drawing. That's that's supposed to be a representation of a tall gray and it's not accurate at all. But it looked emotionally familiar to me when I saw it at a at a grocery store at a Jewel Osco on Northwest Highway in Des Plaines. And it was at a grocery store and it was five dollars and two cents. Paperback. It was a first edition paperback. And so I got it and I read it because the cover freaked me out and I couldn't explain why. But I read it and I still wasn't like it wasn't like bringing up memories or anything from earlier. Nothing like that. So maybe I didn't see any grays in the 70s. Maybe I was unconscious for those encounters with those orbs. But, you know, after they render me unconscious. Yeah. And let's say if they had taken me, maybe I was asleep the whole time during the encounter. I don't know. But but still that that cover on communion. And this was like 1988, 89 when I saw the book and I bought it. Right. But I read it and then I set it aside. And then in 1994, I actually saw grays in my room just suddenly. It wasn't like something I was like really into or it was just kind of like a casual passing interest at the time. But very different. Very different as well from the description given in the book. Totally different. Because, you know, the tinier beings that Whitley describes had hoods. These are more like little gargoyle figures, like just. I didn't see anything like that. You know, you saw like kind of the tall version in a short form. No. But with gray skin. No, no. They look different. If you ever saw the Skinny Bob footage, which was supposedly Soviet footage. Yeah, we we reviewed it. Yeah. On the channel. That was them. Exactly like that. Exactly like that. Three and a half feet tall. Exactly like that. They're little worker bees is what they seem to be. Do you believe that Skinny Bob footage to be authentic? I do. But somebody dressed it up with like. Yeah. Fake scratch marks. Right. But but the original footage. Yeah, that was real because that's exactly how they look. That's exactly how they move. And really. When I. Yeah. The first time. I saw it, I freaked out because because it was like, you know, your heart races a little bit. You're just thinking, oh, my God, they're real, right? Yeah, because it was like, it wasn't like I had a visual memory that I could sketch on paper. Right. But when you knew it, when you saw it, when you saw it, you knew it. And and so I know that's authentic. I mean, it's just every fiber of my being. You even if if you had a guy. Come up and say, hey, look, I, you know, I faked this with his 3D software. I'm I'm going to think he's trying to make a name for himself and he's faking it. You know, fake faking, faking it. Right. But yeah. So you'd put you bet your life on it. Yeah. Those are four little skinny bobs that I saw running out of my room. You would you would swear that that is real. Yeah. That's wild. Yeah, absolutely. And because I saw the next time I saw a skinny bob was. Twenty six years later, this was in twenty twenty. This is your next experience. Yeah. So there's quite a quite a time frame, quite a quite a difference in time. And before we get to that next experience, that allotted amount of time, is there a significance there? I think that they come they have a schedule that they follow when they seem to follow family lines and they have a schedule and they seem to every 20 years. they'll come for a four-year rotation. And they'll come every four to six weeks for four years. So you'll have a rash, you know, like however many encounters, like 48 encounters over a four year period, sometimes more than that. And then 20 years off. And then it happens again. So I'm not expecting them back in my life until I'm in my 70s. Because when they came, I was, when they started coming back, I was 51. Pretty recently. Yeah. Yeah. I'm 57 now. That's just something that is not readily talked about anymore. It seems, it seems to me like the abduction phenomenon, and that might only be because of the coverage of it, but it seems to have dissipated in some way compared to, you know, the amount. But I speak to a lot of people who are abductees and they, they tend to disagree. They're like, no, this is ongoing. This is still happening today. Popular culture might have made it passe over the years. Sure. But it's still very strong going on. There's somebody I can't really talk about for privacy concerns, but I may have possibly led them to this person. And they are now experiencing the phenomenon. They've hinted at that. Right. Yeah. But, but wouldn't give me any details because they didn't want to be dragged into, into, into this talk. Rightfully. So, um, it takes a lot of courage, you know, to, to talk about this stuff publicly for sure. And to, you know, let people in, especially when you're dealing with some of the procedures that are involved. They're, they're quite invasive. Extremely. They're the most personal, you know, and it's as personal as you're thinking out there. Like that's, it has to do with reproduction. It has to do with some type of, you know, insemination or, or whatnot. Like there is some. There are some very private details that, uh, there are some very private details that you go over in this book and that, you know, Whitley has provided as well in his book. And some I haven't given. Sure. Um, okay. So the next time you were to meet any of these beings, and because you had so far only met four skinny bobs, as you put it, these short ones, but then 20 years later. 26 years. 26 years later. You are suddenly awake. Right. But let me back up two months. Sure. I noticed things starting to go awry in my bedroom. Oh, that's right. In January of 2020. Between when I'd go to bed at night and when I would wake up in the morning, something would have changed or been different in my bedroom. And sometimes they were quite noticeable. Um, the most significant was, uh, I'd wake up and my bedding. Was 90 degrees oriented the wrong direction as though it had been completely removed and then put back on the wrong way. Uh, I have these, uh, black and gold stripes on my, um, duvet and, uh, it laying across my legs. And then I'd wake up in the morning and it was vertical stripes. Uh, I'm like, that's weird. But what made it weirder was the fact that, um, I normally have like a back scratch. Sure. And, uh, I sleep alone. I have a back scratcher and a night mask, a sleep mask that I put on, on top of the bed. Uh, I might need in the middle of the night, but, uh, normally if I have a rough night and I'm like tossing and turning, these things always get kicked off onto, uh, the floor on the opposite side of the bed. And, um, so when I woke up and the thing was oriented the wrong way, I expected those things would be on the other side on the floor, but they weren't, they were neatly placed side by side. With each other under the top sheet, right next to my body. And I'm like, that's weird. I wouldn't do that because you'd roll on to, uh, this sharp edged back scratcher to wake you up. It'd be uncomfortable. Maybe you'd get a scratch. I don't know. So you'd suspected that somebody. Yeah. It was just right. It just didn't make sense. It didn't add up because I know I didn't do that, you know? Um, and then another time was, uh, I woke up in the morning and I had, uh, my ear. The earplugs, I had these orange foam earplugs had been removed from, from my ears. Now, normally if I remove them, I just throw them onto the nightstand, just willy nilly, just throw them like a paradise. And, uh, so when I didn't remember removing them, I, I looked on the bed around me to see if they'd fallen out of my, my ears, but they didn't. And then I looked to my, my nightstand right next to me and they were stacked on their ends. Neatly, daintily next to each other. I saw that and my eyes went wide, like, whoa, like, how did that happen? I didn't do that. I know I didn't do that. Um, later on years later, I would meet a woman who experienced that exact same phenomenon with her earplugs, which blew my mind. Wow. Yeah. That was validation, at least on that one little detail that I just, that, that was awesome. Um, so anyway, I, I. After several incidents between January and late March, I decided to do an experiment. Yeah, this is part for me of the most fascinating part of your case because it's such a crude and strange method to. Works. I mean, you know, when I read this, I was like, no way. It's the equivalent of, you know, putting an SOS sign on the beach with rocks. But you decided, hey, if something's entering my room and if something is tampering with my things or with me potentially, and you suspect that it might be these little creatures that you saw years before, why not try to communicate? With them. And that just kind of blew my mind when I read that because I don't think that's where very many people's heads ends up when they think about this stuff. They're more like, please do not come back. Right. Well, if you can't be awake to communicate, how else are you going to do it? So what did you do? I created a poster. I went online and I found a picture of a small gray alien that looked like the ones I saw in 1994. And it was. An illustration of a little skinny Bob. And I'm like, okay, that's the one. So I put the illustration on the poster and I said, I want to remember your visit. Let me remember you. I will not harm. In big block letters on an eight and a half by 11 poster. I printed it out, glossy paper, and I taped it on my wall above my headboard. And I thought, okay, I hope the babysitter doesn't enter my room or somebody. Like sees us. Cause they're going to think I'm, I'm loony tunes. A hundred percent. Oh yeah. I mean, this is like, this is really strange stuff. Uh, so I'm like, yeah, let alone bringing a date home or something. You're like, Oh no, I wouldn't rip it down. I'm like, I'm like last thing you want them to see. I'm not letting you into my weird little world just yet. Fair enough. So, um, what I did was, um, I put it up there and a week goes by nothing, nothing. And, um, then as the days go by, I've kind of forget it's even up there. I just ignore it. I have no idea how long it's going to be if ever, you know, and maybe nothing will happen and I'll just tear it down and forget it the whole thing. Um, but, uh, two weeks later, something happened and I woke up in my garage wearing nothing but my boxer briefs that I was wearing to bed and I was suspended off the concrete floor and I was tilted forward at a, you know, I was like, oh my God, I'm going to die. 25, 30 degree angle. And I was looking down at one of those little skinny bobs and he was wearing a dark coveralls. And, uh, it was dark and very dark in the garage, but there was light streaming in the side window, illuminating the, um, the small grays, uh, left side. And to my left was my, uh, I had a 2002, uh, Chevy trailblazer. And then I could see like the, the paint cans and the, the, the shelves behind the gray. And I just noticing my environment. I was able to turn my head. And the, could you feel the environment, like the cold, the smell? No, it was like being drunk, but without the buzzy feeling you're, you're in a state of pure awareness. You're very awake, pure awareness, but you're, you're, you're, uh, deaf and dumb. You're like, you can't think straight. Um, and this thing spoke to me words in my mind, words, actual words. Yeah. We're actual English words in my mind. And there was a voice to these. Well, it sounded like a voice, but it was, uh, but it, you know, I mean, it, it's hard to, it didn't have an accent or anything. It was like the closest would be like a Midwestern accent, you know, just very, very clear syllables and, and just, and it didn't sound like mechanical. It, it didn't sound familiar. No, it, it was just, just words in my mind that, that maybe my brain interpreted as English or maybe it knew English. I don't know. Was it stern? Um, no, it was just. very matter of fact. And it said to me, apparently in response to the poster that I want to remember you guys, it said, we can't allow you to remember our visit or else my superiors will know about it. And before I could formulate a response or a question, cause I was, I was confused. I didn't like, what am I seeing? Before I could formulate any kind of response, I was instantly unconscious again and not dreaming sleep, black sleep, you know, just completely black sleep. And then when I woke up, I woke up from a black sleep. There were no further imagery in my mind. And, and it was, I don't know, sometime after 3am, which is normally when people tend to wake up, like that's normally like a REM period of time. Yeah. Willie Strieber describes the same time. Yeah. But that was like the witching hour. Sure. Yeah. Um, so I, I sat up in bed and I just couldn't believe what I just experienced. Of course, I don't know how long it was after the garage that I had woken up. Uh, it could have been an hour later. I don't know. But you know, for, for those wondering, like, how would you describe knowing the difference between being in your garage or perceiving that to be your garage? Like for you, what is the, oh my God, this is my garage. Because obviously if you're listening to this, the first thing you're going to say is that was a dream. It's more visceral than a dream. You know, it's, it's more physical. Um, I, I couldn't, it would, I should have been freezing. It, I mean, the, the garage must've been 40 degrees Fahrenheit, um, at that time. Uh, it's a very insulated, well-insulated garage, you know, so the wind doesn't make it too cold, but it cools down slowly over. So it would have been, would have been about 40 degrees in there. I didn't feel anything. Um, and, uh, I didn't, I, and I knew I wasn't touching the concrete cause I, I didn't feel the concrete under my feet and my feet were not dirty afterwards. Um, I was, and, and from my eyeline being just about equal to the roof rack. Right. Uh, told me I was off the floor. I couldn't see my feet because I was, I was leaning forward. Um, you know, and my, my hands were, my arms are at my side and I, it was, I was like a frozen plastic. I made an illustration of this. You can see it on, on my, my book's website. Um, and, and the illustration is exactly right. And the way that the, I illustrated the, the light streaming in it, there was like black and white streams, like, you know, and, and the, the light was moving like this side to side is as though there was like a spinning or moving or, or, or something was walking in front of the light source. I don't know, but it was like doing this as it was illuminating him from the side that the light, the streams were moving. Um, it was very strange. You think it was a ship? I don't know. It could have been an orb. It could have been, I don't know, but something was very brightly lit. There were no signs later on the grass. You went to check outside. Yeah, there was nothing. There was no burn marks or anything like that. So whatever it was, it wouldn't have landed. Um, yeah, it is interesting to have that vantage point in the garage as well, where that's not, you're not likely to have that point of view if it weren't for the fact that you were elevated. I don't dream about my garage. It's boring. I mean, it's like, I got paint cans in there and tools and lawnmower and snowblower and a car. And, um, it's, it's usually you dream about things that you have an emotional attachment to, or it's something you're concerned about, or thinking about. Yeah. Sure. There are abstract dreams as well. I would say I wouldn't rule out, you know, dreaming about something absurd, but also knowing the difference between a dream and reality, I think is, is the, uh, is the more important part here. It's such a different experience for me. And, and I know the difference between when I'm asleep or, um, I liken the experience to, um, I was, I was in a car accident during college, and I told you about this at dinner last night. Um, I was in a car accident. This was in Iowa and my roommate, John was driving. I was drunk in the back seat. He was sober, but he was driving and the roads were icy. And we were going like on like a, a bridge, like over a Creek or something. And, and, uh, he slid and hit the back of a semi with the, his right front corner. And we're spinning around anyway, until he was able to write the card. We narrowly averted death from oncoming traffic. Um, I was just taking it all in, like in slow motion. I was dissociating myself, uh, because I didn't want to believe it was real. And I was numb because I was drunk. Um, that's what, that's what the entrancement that they impose upon you feels like. It feels like being drunk, but without that uncomfortable, buzzy feeling, um, you don't feel anything below your neck. No fear. No, no fear. That's the thing. They, they have a way of dialing down your nervous system to like, I don't know, like just enough to keep you alive. Or flooding you with endorphins or some feel good hormone. It could be something like that. Um, or it could just be, um, that their telepathy is so strong. It overwhelms your sensory processing ability and your brain, um, just can't process everything coming in. Um, so the only sense that works are my eyes. Um, it could be something like that. So, I mean, I'm, I'm open to any code. I'm open to any cogent theory that, that, you know, holds up to scrutiny. Um, so yeah, so that was, that was the first remembered encounter. After this encounter, um, this is obviously now hugely different from this sort of transient glimpse that you had at these four beings rushing out of your room, waking up from a dream. You know, you're kind of like, although that might've seemed wrong. It was real to you. What impact did this new experience have on the past one? Did it reinforce it? Were you like, holy crap. Because it was the same kind of creature. Um, I'm sure they're different individuals. Sure. You know, I don't know how long these things live, but this was 26 years later. Yeah. Um, same, same kind of creature. Yeah. You know, the, the, you know, his head was about this big, about the size of our head, but tiny little skinny little body and, and wearing black cover. And these black coveralls, you know, just, they cover everything except their hands and their feet. I don't remember seeing the feet, so I can't, that's a fuzzy detail, but, uh, you see their hands and their, their feet. How many fingers? I don't know. I, I'm, I get the impression it's five, but I don't, I, it, it, that's a fuzzy detail. Okay. Because when you see them, you're focused on their face. Of course. Yeah. I mean, I'm not, I wouldn't be counting fingers either, or maybe I would now, but maybe in that moment, I wouldn't. I mean, if you had Gal Gadot in front of you, would you be looking at her feet and her hands to see if there's extra fingers? Hey, I might be into, I might be more into feet and hands than you know. You'd be looking at her, her amazing face. Yeah, probably. Right. Um, okay. So we have this experience. Now this is 2020. Yes. And you proceed to have similar experience or not similar experience, but experiences with similar beings for the next four years. Yeah. And in fact, the very next week I met a Tall Grey, a young one. And this is the one floating over you. Right. Uh, a week later, one of the superiors that the, the little guy told me in the garage, one of those superiors that would know about it. If they let me remember the visit, one of the superiors showed up. Yeah. The manager. Yeah. Right. But I think he was like a junior of some kind, cause he was shorter than Tall Grey's I would see later on. He was only about five and a half feet tall. Um, but I woke up, uh, exactly one week later and there was a face right in front of mine. The one on the cover. Yeah. And in fact, that was such a powerful moment for me. Um, I had to put it, I had to put that on the cover, even though it, it, the cover almost looks sexually suggestive, but it, it, it wasn't that kind of a situation. He, um, he wanted to position himself without moving me. So his face was in front of mine. I think he wanted me to look him in the eye. Um, I woke up and there was light between our bodies. Uh, he wasn't clothed. He had no clothing. I, and, and I was only wearing my, my, uh, boxer shorts. Um, but, um, they had removed the bedding and he was, he was on top of me. I right there, just, just the two big eyes. I was intimidated. So I couldn't look him directly in the eyes. So I stared at his shoulder at his right shoulder. And, um, and I was just like, okay, I'm just going to focus on his shoulder. So I was looking at the skin tone, the texture, um, the color. And, um, it noticed that I was interested because I had the thought, I want to, I want to touch his shoulder. And it knew that suddenly I was able to move my left arm. I couldn't move the rest of my body, but I was able to move my left arm. So I positioned it between the tight space between our chests. And I put my hand, uh, on, on his, uh, right shoulder. And I was kind of like massaging, like, I guess, like the shoulder. I don't know if he had a shoulder blade, but I'm just, you know, just that area. And it was very tight and sinewy and muscular. There was no subcutaneous fat on this thing at all. And it was like, uh, kind of like leather, but slightly bumpier, but also smooth. It had, it had more of a texture than fine leather. Um, and then he had a collarbone just like we do. And I had my thumb on it. And after a while, I, um, I calmed down enough that I, I, I put my hand down and I felt comfortable enough to look him in the eye. And as soon as I looked him in the eye, he leaned forward and he touched his forehead to mine. And I was instantly unconscious when he touched his forehead to mine. Um, just kind of like with the orbs on the touch my forehead, I'm unconscious. And, and suddenly I was in a dream state. And I was dreaming this environment of a Bavarian village. We were standing on a cobblestone street. There were, uh, buildings nearby with half timbered architecture, just like you'd see in downtown Nuremberg or someplace like that. Um, um, and so. Had you ever been to Germany? Never, but it was gorgeous. Um, and we were standing beside a sloped hill that had a stone, uh, stairway going up it. And, and we were on a slant. And there were cobblestones. Cars parked. I don't know why he would put cars in that environment. I don't know, but it was, it was, it was just, it just kind of a strange place to be, but we were kind of like on a slanted parking area. And, um, and he was there that the tall gray was there and he was about five and a half feet tall. Um, much shorter than later tall grays I would see. Uh, and then those little skinny bobs, there was three of them. They were next to the bed to the right of me. Uh, they, they were there also, but they appeared as three little girls wearing little blue dresses and blue eyed and blonde haired. And, uh, but I, I knew, uh, later on that it was them. But at the time with the entrancement that they had me in, I thought they were. You're accepting. Yeah. I'm accepting the illusion. Right. At that time. Later on the illusions. Wouldn't work on me anymore, but at this time it did. And, um, and I was confused why we were standing in this area. I was like, I was just in my bedroom. This doesn't make sense, but this thing's standing in front of me. And, um, I was able to ask it a couple of questions and I asked him, what's your name? And he said, sizzling. And so I bent down to the little girls. I, I had telepathy with him, but I didn't know that the little girls could hear him too. I didn't know they were telepathic. So I spoke to them again. This is all a virtual imposed dream environment. This, this wasn't really happening, but I believe the communication was real, but the environment was virtual. So that said, so I bent down and I talked to the little girl verbally, orally. And I, I say, uh, he says his name is sizzling or sillisick. I wasn't sure I got the syllables right. Later on, I replayed on my mind. It was, yeah, it was, it was sizzling. Um, and then. I, I asked him other questions like, uh, are, um, are you from Zeta Reticuli? That's a very specific question, but, uh, it's because I read about Betty and Barney Hill in the nineties and, uh, Marjorie Fish, this, uh, amateur astronomer, uh, took Betty Hill's star map that she saw when, when, during her abduction and, uh, was able to correlate it to Zeta Reticuli. And then I remember. Bob Lazar talking about Zeta Reticuli in the nineties. So that was in my head. Yeah. Also, I would say before Bob, there was a Bill Herman as well, who was told by the beings that they were from Zeta Reticulum as well. So I asked and he said, yes. And I said, are you from the fourth planet? And he said, yes. I'm like, okay. And again, I asked him something based on something I read. I read about the project Serpo, those papers. I read those in the nineties also. Yeah. The Reagan. Yeah. Uh, the, the, the supposed Reagan briefing. Yeah. Probably wasn't even real, but, uh, but supposedly our military called their planet Serpo. So I asked, do you call your planet Serpo? And he says, no, we don't call it that. So I was waiting, waiting, waiting. He didn't tell me. Like what do you call it? He didn't tell me. Um, and it's just irritating me because nobody knows. Nobody knows what they call their home world. There's a book. By, I mean, there's a few, there's a, there's a, you know, the, the arids obviously is like another, uh, Aridania, Aridania or whatever is the other planet that's star system in the vicinity. Um, but then there's also this story of this guy named Amori Rivera. I spoke to you briefly about yesterday. He's this, just this guy in the eighties in Puerto Rico who has this abduction experience with, along with like 14 other people being taken to a planet. Um, and the planet that they're taken to is pronounced KAA, K-A-A, uh, essentially. It sounds, uh, Egyptian. It almost sounds Egyptian. Yeah. And that was, uh, but it was the letter K in Spanish, which I, or in, yeah, in whatever language, uh, they were using. Um, but that was the only other, you know, but then there's, I mean, there's so many stories. If you look at Wendell Stevens and he covered just a vast amount of, um, contact cases, um, from, you know, Umo to Moringa, Itibi Ra, uh, Andromeda, Mirasol, all these different like places, but also these different star systems and planets that kept coming up. But yeah, alas, uh, none, none of those were, were offered to you. You're, you're far better studied than I am. Um, um, but, uh, I, I'm, I'm, I'm still new to the researching all this stuff. Uh, but so, so I know he's from Zeta Reticuli. Yeah. But I couldn't think of any good questions. Like, why are you bothering me? Like, you know, and, and at the time I hadn't talked to my mom yet. I hadn't told anybody about the previous week. And, and, uh. If you could go back to that moment, what question would you ask? If I could ask, if I. You're in that moment right now. They, they entrance you because they, they don't trust that you won't pick them up and throw them against the wall. All right. Let's take for granted that you won't do that. All right. And you're given an opportunity to. I want, I want to know what, what, why, why they're bothering my family in particular. Like, what do they find useful about the genes from my family? The sort of why me? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Uh, and, um, I suspected that they had bothered my daughter, uh, during one of my encounters. I woke up, uh, afterward and she was giggling and squealing with delight in her bedroom. And I ran in there cause I'm like, they better not be bothering her. And, uh. And I'm like, well, maybe she just woke up because her pull-up needed to be changed. I mean, she's an adult wearing diapers because she's severe autism. Um, very low functioning. Uh, so I checked her and she's, her pull-up was bone dry and, and she was able to go right back to sleep. There was no reason for her to wake up. Um, maybe they'd been entertaining her while they were messing with me. I don't know. Um, but. I just hope that they leave her alone because that would just anger me to no end. Yeah. Um, you leave my little girl alone. Yeah. Did, does it seem, cause, um, she's nonverbal. Um. She couldn't tell me if they did. No. Yeah. Does it, do you ever get the impression that, um, and you know, not to, not to be insensitive, but there is this, you know, telepathy tapes, obviously, which I'm sure you're aware of by now. It's been mentioned to me. Yeah. And spellers and things like that. Have you ever visited this? No, that's kind of, that's kind of. New-ish. Yeah. You know, because my, my intervention and my advocacy within the autism community goes back more than 20 years. And I, uh, after a while, when I became a single parent, I, I stopped following up every promising intervention because we tried so many and we spent so much money. I spent $60,000 trying to recover my daughter's cognitive abilities to get her closer to her age range so she could have some measure of. Independence and, um, I failed. Um, so she's now today, she's living in a group home. I'm an empty nester because I'm too tired to change diapers every day. I've, I did it for 16 years by myself. Um, so, uh, but this, this started happening before she moved out of the house. And I was, uh, I was concerned maybe that they were, I don't want them going to her for OVA or anything like that. I want them to leave her alone. Yeah. I'll give them whatever they need. I'll cooperate with them. You leave her the F alone. Do you think they're aware of you doing interviews right now? I have something to say about that. Um, I posted a couple of signs over the four year period that they were visiting me. Different, different advertisements, different messages, different messages, requests. I said, you know, um, I remember so much from my encounters with you guys. Why don't you let me be fully awake? For the whole thing, I'll cooperate with you. I just wanted to remember everything. And one of the things that. One night I had what felt more like a dream than a waking encounter where I was asked the question, what would you do if we allowed you to be fully awake? And I was in a very honest mood and I said, well, of course, I'd talk to newspapers and magazines and I would talk about this. You know, you have to talk about this. And yeah, denied. Yeah. So but I had some waking encounters where they I think they were experimenting with me. They were letting me be awake for short periods of time, anywhere from 12 seconds to two minutes, depending on on what was going on. If they required my physical cooperation or if they wanted to show me something, it was a longer period of time where I was allowed to be standing on my feet. But they they kept me very, very sedated, like cognitively sedated. Where? Where you're just very passive and agreeable and you you just do what you're told. Do you when you wake up from these experiences, do you feel like an insane amount of fatigue? Sometimes like you hadn't slept at all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'd wake up, which was very inconvenient because, you know, I have to go to work. And even though I go to bed at 830, nine o'clock at night, you know, I try to get to bed as early as I can while my daughter was still at home because I never know when she's going to wake me up in the middle of the night. Yeah. Change a pull up. You know, it was it was a rough period of time when as a as a single father to a child like her. I love her dearly. I mean, she's everything to me, but it it was stressful. Yeah. So I go to bed early every night. And but after an encounter, I'd wake up the next day and I felt like I hadn't slept at all. And it's just exhausting. Yeah, it's like that. So let's go to some of the other encounters that you had. After this. Yeah, there's some interesting ones because, you know. You were taken to what seems not only like a board of craft, but also maybe to some type of facility. Several times. Yeah. Whether that's underground or whether that's in a giant mothership like you wouldn't know. But you were also they also alluded to the fact that that they have facilities underground. That's right. Nearby in Illinois. So let's talk about before we get to the. Underground facilities. Let's talk about some of the other encounters that you had leading up to that. Sure. There were just a bunch of little encounters where like I'd wake up and I there were four. Always four. Yeah. They always come to me at fours, whether whether it's a mixture of the tall ones and the short ones or all short ones. But I woke up and it was very dark in the room. And I saw two of them levitating above my bed and trading positions and landing on either side of the bed. So there was excuse me. So there was four of them, two on each side of the bed. And two of them traded places by levitating over top of me. And while they were levitating. Take a step. Sorry, my throat gets dry. Oh, you're saying it now and I just got something in my throat. Yeah. So while they were levitating, there was like a extremely faint green aurora around their bodies. And I could make out some details on their faces and they were they had like a grin. There is. You showed me a few pictures at dinner last night just before we get into this story that you are pretty high conviction on in terms of their appearance. One. The photo was from a video that was deemed fake of this giant sort of gray, terrifying looking like absolutely so haunting. It's so close to accurate. I mean, it's so close. It at first I took it for real video. But upon a little doing a little research, I asked Grok a show at the video. It's like, no, that's fake. And here's the artist's name. And this is the software he used. And so I was satisfied with that explanation. But it was close. Whoever made this might have had access to photos or had seen one. I don't know. But it is so close that the sagittal ridge on the on their neck, you know, going down their back a little bit that that seemed accurate. They seem muscular to a little bit. Their necks are muscular. The tall grays. The older ones have mottled skin, very, very thin skin. And like I told you before, they have no subcutaneous. Subcutaneous fat. There's no padding on on, you know, on under their skin. Almost transparent. Yeah. Now, the younger ones have thicker skin where you can see it's more even skin tone. There's not as much unevenness like modeling like the blue modeling. Sorry, I think I need a lozenge. That's fine. You want to take a break? We can take a break. Oh, sure. Yeah, let's do that. There's something I think most people underestimate about. Being online and it's not just the big platforms. It's not just social media. 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If you want to do the same, go to incogni.com. slash area 52 and use code area 52 to save 60% on an annual plan because your privacy should not be declassified. So these beings, you said they had like these large necks and the photo that you showed me. I mean, you can you can see some bruising and that's exactly what you kind of described. Right. The the older ones are the taller ones. The younger ones are shorter. Are they the same? Yeah, the sizzle like was the same as the ones I. I saw in other facilities when they'd remove me from my home. What it means, like the little ones, do they grow up to be? No, no, no, no, no. The short ones are different species. They're engineered. They're worker bees. Yeah. The tall ones are the natives from Zeta Reticuli and the little ones are made in their image. Right. They're recent. I mean, probably within just the last couple thousand years, they came in. But like but if you go back to like Sumerian days, I don't think they had like the little greys back then. I think. They, you know, what you had was like the Apkallu and these other beings that were revered as gods. But I think they were emissaries for the greys going back. But that's a different theory. But, yeah, so we're talking about the skin. The older ones, they have thinner skin and it's more translucent. So you can see that there's like a dense capillary bed under the skin. And that jibes with the detail that we learned. From some reports that they excrete waste. And a lot of times abductees would smell a horrible ammonia smell or a smell of like burnt rubber, sulfur. I never smelled anything in my encounters. Maybe it's just they had such mastery over my sensory inputs that I don't remember anything like that. But I got a good look at their skin. The young one that was on top of me and then the older ones, you know, that were really tall. But their skin is designed for excreting waste through these capillaries. And I believe also that they may be absorbing nutrition, a liquid diet that they bathe in, that they cover themselves in. So they're not only. Not only excrete, but it's a two-way street with these pores. I believe that, yes. Rather than ingesting it. Based on everything I've read. Yeah. I mean, not based on my encounters alone. Sure. Based on everything I've read, I'm like a Jenga puzzle. I'm just putting everything together. I asked you yesterday if you'd read the file on Reddit where this molecular biologist came out. Have you read that since? I did last night. You glanced at it? Yeah. Yeah, I did. Was there anything in there that you thought, whoa, this is. I think most of it jibes with what I'm hypothesizing about. I don't know about their physiology, their biology, but I'm fascinated by them because they have such mastery when they take you. They rob you of all agency. You can't really control your thoughts. You can't control your body. They can make you do things that you wouldn't want to do, and they do things to you that you would never consent to. So for me, empowerment is aggressively trying to understand them. you know, what makes them tick, Why are they doing this? What's their agenda? I feel powerless if I don't ask these questions. If I'm not analytical about these things, I don't like them. I don't like them at all. I want them gone. But what can I do? So you learn about them? Yeah, just learn about them. Everything I can. I think that they're trying to survive, and I think they want to come here. I think they want to live here on our planet, and they can't do so without borrowing heavily from our gene pool. Let's get into that a little bit. Let's unpack that. There is, you know, if you look at the story that the molecular biologist on Reddit put out, a lot of that taps into their diet and how they digest food and how they produce waste. It is said. According to him that with, you know, the fact that they don't have teeth, that they have these small openings as mouths, they have a separate trachea and esophagus, which, by the way, genius. Yeah. He said that they mainly would have to, you know, consume a liquid diet high in copper. Yeah. Because copper was found to be, you know, in really high content in the blood. Yeah. You have a theory on this. And it's not necessarily a theory that is, it's not, it's not of love and light. I'll tell you that. No, it's very dark. Yeah. And I'm, I'm very discouraged by it. And this is in your, your recent book, The Blood Covenant. Yeah. It's called A Blood Covenant. A Blood Covenant. The Alien Agenda Behind Civilization and Human Domestication. So the idea is that they drink blood. Uh. Or at least consume it. Consume it. Yeah. Not orally drink it, but yeah, consume it. And they've been doing so. Um, for millennia. Uh, and they, they used to do it wholesale. Uh, I, I started to notice, uh, as I was looking at ancient astronaut theory, cause I got into that after 2020, when these things started happening to me, uh, I became interested in the show, ancient aliens, which, uh, a lot of times it can be such a silly show and they, they, they have ridiculous speculation sometimes. But they do a lot right. And they, they do look and, and match up, uh, clues from across civilizations, across oceans, all around the world. And they ask a lot of intriguing questions that are worth asking. And, um, so I, I started to look into that and I noticed, um, there were cultural clues linking all of the pyramid building societies around the world. Whether you're talking about the, the American pyramids, you know, uh, whether it's the pyramidal mounds of the Mississippians in Cahokia, Illinois, or the, you know, in Mesoamerica, like Mexico, you know, Guatemala, you know, these, the Mayans and the Aztecs, these pyramids, um, and, and, and some of these pyramids have, uh, corollaries, uh, almost identical architecture, like in Cambodia, you can compare a Cambodian pyramid against, uh, one in Guatemala and they're nearly identical and, you know, 8,000 miles of ocean between them. And, and we, we were supposedly not a ocean faring species at the time. I don't know if this is probably like, uh, third millennia, uh, BCE when, when a lot of these pyramids were being built. But anyway, um, I'm, I'm sure I don't get the dates right, but, uh, I, I just started to notice that there were, there was clues that seemed to connect the grays through emissaries to these pyramids. And by emissaries, you mean the gods that they worshiped? Right, right. And, uh, and I noticed, you know, and I'm not the first one to notice this. I'm just putting it all together. I'm reading other people's stuff and, you know, none of this is original to me. Yeah, we're, we're theory crafting. Right. So what I'm doing, what I did with the book was I took ancient astronautics. Not theory, everything I've been reading, everything I've been putting together. And, uh, I basically assigned all of that to the grays of Zeta Reticuli, whether, whether directly or through emissaries. But I, I came to the thought that in the Americas, these pyramid building societies, they, they were highly a type O population, O positive, like more than 73% of these populations, these American tribal populations were type O. And, uh, type O lacks the A and B antigens, uh, and it's, uh, you know, easier in terms of tissue rejection. So, uh, O negative is the best, uh, donor, but O positive is far better than A or B or AB. And, uh, so I noticed every place there was, uh, human sacrifices, blood sacrifice rituals around the world, type O. Okay. Um, like that's significant. All right. That's something to look at. Uh, and, uh, now in the Middle East where they, they had animal sacrifices, but there you have a high populations of A and B antigens and not as much O in the Middle East, you know, like the, you know, the Hebrews and that, you know, they're not type O. So I'm like, okay, but they're, they, they revered cattle, but they didn't eat cattle. And, and I'm thinking, well, that's kind of interesting. I stuck that in the back of my mind. And then, uh, the Egyptians revered cattle too, but they didn't really eat cattle. Uh, and, and then with, with the, in recent, you know, years with the cattle mutilations, like the work of Linda Moulton Howe and stuff, these animals are completely exsanguinated, uh, when their carcasses are dumped and, and, and certain tissues are removed that appear to be with high heat instruments, like a laser of some kind. Um, so I, I'm just, I wonder if there's a connection. And then that kind of led me to this idea of blood consumption. Like why, why were the Mayans and the Aztecs giving blood to their gods? Why, why would God demand, you know, that you kill a certain number of people? And I realized, well, look, they, they all have like, they've, they've got these pyramids. They have similar writings, similar agriculture, all these things. They have all these. The similar trappings of society, you know, that brings them together. I'm like, well, what if they were domesticated in order for, to more efficiently harvest them, uh, for their old blood? And, um, so that kind of led to the idea. And so I started to look, okay, so what, what if they do need to consume blood for nutrition? Um, so then I started to look at their, you know, their physiology, their biology. I'm, I'm not a biochemist. I'm not a. What's your blood type? Uh, I think I may be positive. Yeah. Uh, they seem to like A and B for breeding and O for consumption. So if you're type O or O negative, uh, and you're in the wilderness camping alone in, in UFO hotspots, you might disappear and never come back. Hmm. That's, uh, yeah. It's a creepy thought. Yeah, it is kind of, but, uh, it's just a theory. And so how does, so, okay, they're consuming bovine blood because of. Because of the close genetic resemblance to human blood. I believe what they're doing is because these days they can't just demand, okay, we need 200 people's worth of blood. You know, they, they can't go to the Mayas or the Aztecs anymore and say, give us blood. Right. You know, in exchange for favors. Uh, they can't do that in mass anymore. I think what happened was maybe they were being over harvested at the time, uh, back when the Mayans just abandoned their cities. That could be because they were being over harvested and they freaked them out and there was the blood covenant wasn't worth the exchange anymore. So they, they abandoned these cities that they were inspired to create. Uh, just a theory. It's wild. Right. It is wild. It's, it's, uh, you know, you mentioned this too last night, but it's the closest thing to like vampiric folklore that we have. Right. Well, they can't be in sunlight. They have very thin skin with a dense capillary bed right under this translucent skin. They would burn horribly in sunlight. So you'll never see a tall gray out in the sunshine. Um, the, the small, the short grays, the little worker bees, they have a little bit of padding under their skin, a little bit of subcutaneous fat. They have the ability to be in sunlight for short periods. Not as long as you or I could. Like a, like a familiar. Yeah, they're, but they're, they're able to, to tolerate our biosphere better. And I think they're engineered. That way? That way. In order to do the home invasions and take people like me out of my bed. So what's your best theory on why it is they are here? Because, you know, I'm sure there's nutrition elsewhere. What's, what's, what's so special about here? Why, why do you think the Zetas come here? It's a huge, it's a huge conversation unto itself, but I'll, I'll give you the cliff notes. I think that they, um, I think that their planet, uh, is smaller than earth. That's why they're tiny. taller, um, and if you look at their, their, uh, wouldn't that make them smaller uh no they they lower gravity lower gravity but if you put a shark in like an aquarium the shark is smaller do you mean like if if the um if the environment is less conducive to having large things on it you know what i mean wouldn't that make them i don't think no because i mean you're there's still a lot of surface area sure on a planet bigger than mars but smaller than earth there's still a lot of surface area but it it's a so they likely come from a lighter gravity environment so they're taller or more oxygen um now why why do they have these big black eyes with these black lenses over their eyes and and you know why why are they so pale uh and and can't be out in sunlight well probably because they're adapted to be indoors or underground and why would they be underground well what if they lost their magnetic field because their planet is smaller than earth it may have cooled off a long time ago they might have lost their magnetic field and uh subject to cosmic and solar radiation on their planet so they might have had to adapted to underground conditions and um so over time so over time they they they they optimized their genetics to uh to be in a different type of biosphere underground so um but then i'm thinking okay well if they're adapted for living underground on their own planet why are they coming here well what if what if there's there's some other clues that that really intrigued me um related to the loss of their magnetic field now do you remember what bob lazar said when uh he read these briefing papers at s4 yeah containers right that the the the military reported that the grays considered humans as containers and we were given religion so that we wouldn't damage the containers um and he speculated but he he doesn't really stand beside this firmly like but he was speculated well maybe they meant containers of souls you know or containers of blood since they consume blood but they it it they they could grow a blood factory or something if they like that's what i would assume too yeah they could just find some other means of nutrition right but but so right exactly so i'm thinking well it has to be more about the souls okay so what's so great about our planet well we still have a magnetic field well what if now think about this when a person is living they have an active um nervous system with electrical activity what if that is the anchor like a faraday cage like an electrical anchor that keeps a soul in the body and when you die your nervous system just the the electrical activity ceases and then the soul just escapes the body and goes somewhere well where's it going to go if it needs to be um in in some kind of an em field or electrical activity around it well wouldn't it naturally go into the earth's magnetic field wouldn't that be like what we call heaven or the light at the end of the tunnel maybe that's the bioplasma you know of of the earth's magnetic field so what what if it's like alive with consciousness as like a way station between just incarnations right so what if let's just say for the sake of argument that that is a thing that that that mechanism actually exists so what would happen on their planet after they lost their magnetic field the other souls would just go out into the ether right so you would need to be able to do that right so you would need to be able to do that to develop the ability to trap it to trap it and transfer it into a a new cloned body because they're obviously they don't they don't reproduce sexually um so you have to you have to be able to either move their soul from a a dying body into a new clone body and and some some um author researchers have have spoken to abductees who have witnessed supposedly allegedly uh soul transfer soul transfer right so what if they had that tom de long even talked about that at one point right now i know nothing about that yeah but i'm just taking that as a data point yeah we're lore mashing we're taking we're taking you know things that we're very crafting i like it right so so what i'm suggesting is that what if they were losing souls to migration what if the souls that every time a gray died a tall gray died its soul couldn't enter the magnetic field was too weak or it was gone what if it migrated over to earth and what if most of their soul so every time one of uh you know they would try to bring to life one of their their clones from its chamber or whatever they grow it in um gestate it and um what if it doesn't achieve consciousness because there's no soul to enter it and so their population dwindled and they had to come here in order to like reclaim what they lost to migration what if those souls migrated to the earth to the closest nearest magnetosphere now this is the most woo stuff you're ever sure because i like to stay grounded in scientific i like this theory um i think it's fine um so are you saying that if someone gave birth in the iss it would be like a stillborn soulless child well no the soul is available on the iss because there's there's the magnetic field and there's no soul around and what if you were like it's still behind the moon but no i don't think that would hurt it because it's still like it's so close enough in proximity right but but if but there is a point in space where you get to if you're talking 39 and a half light years yeah yeah maybe maybe distance becomes an issue again this is just yeah sure sure i'm just playing in the sky speculation i'm i'm not an expert on the grays i'm i'm trying to become one yeah of course but i i'm but i'm with you um okay so i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to go ahead okay so let's say now that let's say this is real they lose their magnetosphere they lose their ability to incarnate and they have to sort of manually transfer souls and it sounds really sad and desperate that's why i said they're desperate yeah and you know to come here and then so what is the purpose of the hybridization in that case well um they don't trust us now if you'll remember what uh whitley streber said uh what he was told by the grays is that uh vocal or voiced uh sentient species don't last very long yeah because uh we lack a deeper empathy that is necessary to avoid uh self-destructive behaviors like our wars and and our ever increasingly powerful weapons like nuclear weaponry um so so he was told that you know only only the telepathic have a chance to have a long legacy um so i think that we have been judged as uh as um primitive well not harmful like not viable for for the long term i see yeah okay so therefore not worth an investment worthy of replacement i think homo sapiens will be replaced by this new hybrid species at the greater north of the world and they're going to be replaced by a new species the grays are creating the grays are planning their own extinction they know that they can't be a parasitic blood-consuming uh species you know forever um and and they can't just live underground forever and they i think they're they're creating a species that can live on the surface biosphere you know be exposed to the sunlight uh be exposed to the pathogens by becoming mostly human themselves so you know how we're going to be exposed to the sunlight we're going to be exposed we're separated by the chimpanzees by only like one and a half percent of our of our dna uh you know chimpanzees share 98 and a half percent of the same dna or maybe it's 97 i'm not sure exactly the number but they're mostly human so it's just that that last little bit the few percentage of dna makes us what we are makes all the difference right so there there are genetic cousins as a banana only has 50 of our dna that's crazy it's pretty close yes i know a few bananas yeah i mean having improper thoughts about eating that banana it's camel no okay so um so the idea is that they're they're planning their own extinction by merging with us and when the last tall gray dies out uh you know then that'll be it how do the how do the nordics fit into this or not even just the how do the human looking hybrids because if you look at david jacob's work which you cite in your book um you know david was a firm believer through his studies of hypnotic regression that there was a transitional there was multiple i think five transitional phases between the human and the hubrid which is the human hybrid that looks identical yeah and you know as it nears the hubrid it gets more and more uh looks more and more and starts acting more and more like a human but at first you have these egg-headed you know genderless like weird bizarre and there's this whole kind of crude and in and homely version of a human between these two what's going on there Why are they trying to, what's your best guess is why they're trying to look like us? What if the grays were anticipating the loss of their world as their magnetic field got weaker and weaker and they knew about the problem with the soul bleed off and migration? And what if they were preparing for that over the long term? So they come to Earth, they find Homo erectus and start to modify it. What if they were trying to create a platform that would be more suitable for hybridization with? So it was a long game. So what if they started to, you know, Homo erectus and then it becomes, you know, a newer species until they get to sapiens. So now Homo sapiens is finally. A platform upon which they can do the final change and blend with us, merge, converge with us. And then Homo sapiens, you know, already our birth rates are declining all over the world. You know, I think our population will contract, but at some point we are going to be swept aside. It's just a theory. Yeah. I mean, according to many experiencers and abductees, it seems to be the case as well. Like there are a lot of people who go on board these craft and who are, you know, allegedly apparently talking to these entities who tell them things like you are part of a chosen group. Your time will come soon. You're doing good work and you'll be rewarded when this all happens. Like all of this sort of foreshadowing and this apocalyptic talk and imagery that's sent to. Were you ever given? I know you talk about it a little bit in the book, but at one point you were told, I think, by one of the Tall Greys to put away the nukes. Like we have to put away the nukes. Yeah, there was a Tall Grey and we were walking side by side. I was completely confused and out of it. And I actually argued with him. He said, you have to get rid of your nuclear weapons. And I didn't know the context why he would say that to me. And I was only. I was unconscious for 25 seconds, but I argued with him. I said, we'd be giving up our strategic, you know, our mutual. Deterrent. Deterrent. You know, so we can't just give it up, you know, at least not, you know, unilaterally. We can't do that. But as a species, we might have a chance to do that actually once AI and robotics are able to create enough space for us to be able to do that. We might have an opportunity to get rid of our mutual deterrence at that point. So long as we have like really good cybersecurity and we can keep AIs from being corrupted by foreign nations. But I don't think they have faith in us. And I think they're phasing us out. And I think it's soon. But why phase us out? I don't want to be a. Doomsayer. I'm not saying the end is near. I'm not on a street corner with a sign. No, but why. What I'm asking is like, clearly they have the ability to intervene and stop us from doing whatever. If they can control you and do, you know, make you do horrible things or do unspeakable things to you without your consent. Right. Then they can make you do anything. And so the argument always stands. Why wouldn't they just intervene? Why wouldn't they just shut down? Because I think they're desperate. Now, you brought up the Nordics. There's a legend that said that Eisenhower was offered two deals. Right. One from the Grays that said, you know, in exchange for permission to. Genetic, yeah. Abduct humans and cattle from a set list, you know, which I don't think they stuck to that list at all. But in exchange for the right to abduct human and cattle within the United States. We will provide the technology to the military. So there was that deal. And then there's a story about how the Nordics were offering to, we're going to, we'll get rid of the Grays for you. You know, they're no good. You know, they're not good for you people. But, and we can help you achieve world peace, but it would come with like less freedom. Right. Right. So, yeah. Yeah. Put away the nukes. Right. I don't know much about that story. I didn't. And we were very trigger happy during that time. I mean, if ever there was a time where we wouldn't have given up nukes, it was a Cold War. Like, I mean, worst time to offer up a deal like that if you're the Nordics, by the way. Right. Like, wait a few decades. Because at that point, you know, we had just discovered the atomic bomb. And we had just discovered that other countries are also making the atomic bomb. Not a time to put down the nukes. What if the Nordics have continued to warn us about the Grays? We saw that crop circle, the Crabwood crop circle. Yeah. In 2002. Yeah. Beware the Zetas. Right. So, they had an image, and you could put this in post-production, but it was an image, like a halftone image of a tall gray face. And there was, like, this circular binary message. And the Orion star system. Right. And they were warning us, you know, basically calling them liars. Beware of bears of false truth. Right. Or false gifts. False gifts. Right. And then, yeah, don't trust the Zetas or something. Beware the Zetas. Yeah. But, you know, much pain but still time. I mean, that was part of it. So, it was a warning saying it's not too late. But maybe we've just ignored it too long. But now I've been hearing, ever since I reported my case to MUFON, I've kind of cozied up with the Illinois MUFON people. And I've attended some of their meetings. And I've even been to the symposium last year. And I plan to go this year. But I heard how the military is now actively shooting down little scout crafts. That fly over our airspace using microwave, high-powered microwaves. They discovered in the 40s, and it's said that the Roswell crash may have been caused when two disks passed too close to a high-powered radar station. And the thought is that these high-powered microwaves from the radar interrupt the flight envelope, the field propulsion around their craft. And it would veer off course. And crash into something. If that's true, and I don't know, I'm not an insider. But if that's true, then they may have since developed more directed energy weapons designed to directly pull down these smaller scout craft. And fill their coffers. You know, their secret bases, their S4s. I'm sure that's not the only base like that. No. Definitely not. You know, a friend of ours here, UAP Gerb, he's pretty much on top of anything and everything regarding, you know, DUMs across the country. So let's talk about DUMs for a second. Deep underground military bases. But not only military, not only human military, but what seems to be, you know, according to one of the messages you've received. Yeah. That there are these cave systems, that there are these cavernous systems on Earth filled. With life? Like that's where they live? I became frustrated. We hadn't yet addressed, you know, the offspring that they were creating from my genes. But I was shown images on a wall of probably 20 or more of my offspring of various ages from, you know, infancy to adulthood. And I was also shown a small base. And I was shown a baby during an encounter crawling on a metal table. And they said, he's yours, but he has a genetic problem. And we need, you know, you're here to provide us the tissues that we need to correct the problem. So anyway, I was upset with them because the baby that they showed me, I suspected was a stolen pregnancy from a relationship I had had back in 22. And I was. I was rather emotional. What do you mean by a stolen pregnancy? Can you clarify? I had a girlfriend that we conceived a child. She lost the pregnancy in her ninth or tenth week. The child would have been born on or around my birthday in January of 2023. And then we'd broken up since then. You believe the child that you were shown to be that baby? The only reason why I suspect it, I don't know it, is that. I was shown the baby in June of 2023, and it was six or seven months old. So if they had. taken the child from her womb and if they had artificially gestated it and it was born on or around january of 23 then it was the right age to have been hers and mine did you have did you know the sex of the baby well it was mine he told me it was mine but uh oh it was a boy uh while while being pregnant oh no no no it was it was only nine or ten weeks so we didn't i think determine the gender oh is it 12 weeks were you determined or is it nine weeks i but i we didn't yeah sure we didn't do that gotcha you know uh but when when she miscarried the child um the fluid filled sack and the um the fetus embryo wasn't in the tissues that were passed uh visiting the obstetrician they determined there was nothing left in the uterus she was healthy but they had determined that she was pregnant um so it it's a suspicion it's it's it's a pregnancy type deal yeah uh the same thing happened to my mother um she wasn't presented with a strange child but uh she had a miscarriage before i was conceived in early 1968 she had a miscarriage um and again the the fetus was missing from that so maybe that was related because she was that was a period of time when she sure was likely being visited so um again i i don't know this uh yeah no you only got what you yeah what you remember yeah so so this baby's on on this medical table yeah and uh and he said he's yours but he has a genetic problem and you're here to give us the tissues we need to correct it um and then i was only conscious for seconds some i mean just very short period of time but i was i i woke up in a standing position and there was this very tall man i saw him as a man but later on i realized i was a tall gray but he was like seven and a half feet tall and there's very few people you know outside of professional sports that are that tall um but uh i thought he was a air traffic control uh personnel person uh and we were in a round room circumferenced by uh vertically uh short windows that were very long uh all all around us and i would say the room was about 50 to 60 feet in diameter it was a round room a round room i thought it was an air traffic control tower i mean that was the entrancement made me think it was something familiar but it was could have been a craft it could have been a ufo uh because it didn't look like normally like if i'm in one of their facilities i'm in a square room with gray walls so um this wasn't like that this this was very much it could have been a craft you know a large ufo and then what do they show you after that was there they just showed me the child and then and then i went unconscious but um so oh you're talking about later so i asked them where where are my my children my offspring where are they being kept where do you keep them and they showed me a gray wall and the wall became a view screen it was just a gray metallic pewter gray wall everything i mean that's why i think that they're they're monochromatic with their vision they don't they don't have any colors the only colors i've seen are gray white and black in any of their facilities so um so this became a screen and there was a map and it and it showed the the united states the 48 contiguous states with the state division lines drawn in i found that very surprising but maybe that was for my benefit um and then they zoomed in on illinois and surrounding areas and i could see under the surface of this map now it was a monochromatic map it was very gray you know uh and it was like line art and um but it was 3d so i saw caverns under eastern illinois at the northern end they were about even with the bottom tip of lake michigan and at the southern end they were as far south as peoria illinois and i saw caverns under eastern illinois and i saw caverns under eastern illinois and i've mapped out on my book website um the counties that are over top these areas and um i estimate based on the scale that the caverns were uh there so there's three caverns there was two parallel to one another at the same depth and one between them deeper down and so the two top caverns were about a third of a mile underground um which with the geothermal gradient would probably put it about 75 80 degrees fahrenheit comfortable for human habitation and then below that uh i'd say close to half a mile underground so you had the the three and they almost looked like bananas because they looked like rounded um triangles the way that they were constructed and at the southern ends they sloped downward and and i was thinking about that i'm like well that kind of makes sense because you could have groundwater runoff uh you know within the caverns with the sloping downward and also heavier gases like co2 would sink down to that so you have better airflow uh circulation within the caverns um i i fed the design of of the the caverns into um chat gpt and it did a forensic analysis and it told me that's actually a good design uh for caverns and then i said okay well i'm going to do a little bit of a research and i'm going to do a little bit of a research and i'm going to do a little bit of a research and i'm going to do a little bit of a research and i'm going to do a little bit of a research is there anything in the geological record that that would prove that they're not there and um it didn't find anything it said well and um it didn't find anything it said well there's some there's some oil production south of there there's some there's some oil production south of there uh in further down south and southern illinois uh in further down south and southern illinois uh but there's there's no known caverns but the uh the uh but there's there's no known caverns but the uh the type of bedrock in that area is ideal for caverns type of bedrock in that area is ideal for caverns it's said that it's primarily dolastone it's said that it's primarily dolastone it's said that it's primarily dolastone which is uh and dolomite it's it's it's uh which is uh and dolomite it's it's it's uh which is uh and dolomite it's it's it's uh limestone that's high in magnesium limestone that's high in magnesium limestone that's high in magnesium uh so it's very strong so it can support uh so it's very strong so it can support uh so it's very strong so it can support caverns and and that kind of stone has caverns and and that kind of stone has caverns and and that kind of stone has been used for uh countertops and been used for uh countertops and been used for uh countertops and well sure but i'm but i'm talking about well sure but i'm but i'm talking about well sure but i'm but i'm talking about uh underground uh installations like uh underground uh installations like uh underground uh installations like walls and stuff yeah oh wow so so walls and stuff yeah oh wow so so walls and stuff yeah oh wow so so there there's uh there there's uh there there's uh yeah so um yeah so um yeah so um so when i was looking at that uh so when i was looking at that uh so when i was looking at that uh i also i also realized that illinois is i also i also realized that illinois is i also i also realized that illinois is geologically very stable there's not a geologically very stable there's not a geologically very stable there's not a lot of earthquake activity lot of earthquake activity lot of earthquake activity um you have the new madrid fault uh not um you have the new madrid fault uh not um you have the new madrid fault uh not too far away too far away too far away but it it it's been pretty quiet have but it it it's been pretty quiet have but it it it's been pretty quiet have you visited you visited you visited that area or do you plan on visiting that area or do you plan on visiting that area or do you plan on visiting that area well it's i've i've driven that area well it's i've i've driven that area well it's i've i've driven over that area several times but over that area several times but over that area several times but um but another advantage to that it's um but another advantage to that it's um but another advantage to that it's close to a fresh water source close to a fresh water source close to a fresh water source sure like michigan yeah great place to sure like michigan yeah great place to sure like michigan yeah great place to park your vehicle as well park your vehicle as well park your vehicle as well yeah right i mean we hear so many yeah right i mean we hear so many yeah right i mean we hear so many stories of like these things coming out stories of like these things coming out stories of like these things coming out of lakes of lakes of lakes yeah um especially lake michigan being yeah um especially lake michigan being yeah um especially lake michigan being a massive lake itself i mean yeah there a massive lake itself i mean yeah there a massive lake itself i mean yeah there might be bases under the lake too might be bases under the lake too might be bases under the lake too that's what i'm saying but um oh they that's what i'm saying but um oh they that's what i'm saying but um oh they found they found a found they found a found they found a a stone hedge in lake michigan under uh a stone hedge in lake michigan under uh a stone hedge in lake michigan under uh traverse bay like michigan traverse bay like michigan traverse bay like michigan yeah there you go um i mean that's yeah there you go um i mean that's yeah there you go um i mean that's that's really interesting i'd be i'd be that's really interesting i'd be i'd be that's really interesting i'd be i'd be interested to see interested to see interested to see the correlation with the per capita the correlation with the per capita the correlation with the per capita amount of abductions or sightings or amount of abductions or experiences in that specific area versus the experiences in that specific area versus the experiences in that specific area versus the surrounding areas if there's anyone surrounding areas if there's anyone surrounding areas if there's anyone in that area listening to this right now in that area listening to this right now in that area listening to this right now which is exactly which area this is which is exactly which area this is which is exactly which area this is eastern illinois eastern illinois eastern illinois eastern illinois eastern illinois eastern illinois running parallel to the indiana border running parallel to the indiana border running parallel to the indiana border just west of the indiana border so if just west of the indiana border so if just west of the indiana border so if you're from that area comment below let you're from that area comment below let you're from that area comment below let me know me know me know yeah that's true reach out to me fine yeah that's true reach out to me fine yeah that's true reach out to me fine probably more people probably more people probably more people than do yeah you know for sure uh but than do yeah you know for sure uh but than do yeah you know for sure uh but you'd be surprised at the at some of the you'd be surprised at the at some of the you'd be surprised at the at some of the comments you know people comments you know people comments you know people through anonymity can uh can just come out through anonymity can uh can just come out through anonymity can uh can just come out and say you know well actually there is and say you know well actually there is and say you know well actually there is something going on there or we did have something going on there or we did have something going on there or we did have a sighting in a in a lake a sighting in a in a lake a sighting in a in a lake i i would i would love to have those i i would i would love to have those i i would i would love to have those caverns just proven or proven sure yeah caverns just proven or proven sure yeah caverns just proven or proven sure yeah i just want light are i'm creeped out i just want light are i'm creeped out i just want light are i'm creeped out by the thought that there may be tens of by the thought that there may be tens of by the thought that there may be tens of thousands of hybrids living underground thousands of hybrids living underground thousands of hybrids living underground beneath our feet in illinois what do beneath our feet in illinois what do beneath our feet in illinois what do these hybrids look like do you think these hybrids look like do you think these hybrids look like do you think i i don't know i can i can i i i don't know i can i can i i i don't know i can i can i anytime i'm sure like an image i think anytime i'm sure like an image i think anytime i'm sure like an image i think they're mostly human yeah um you know they're mostly human yeah um you know they're mostly human yeah um you know maybe they have slightly bigger eyes maybe they have slightly bigger eyes maybe they have slightly bigger eyes but um if they're bred for but um if they're bred for but um if they're bred for the surface i don't think they'd be the surface i don't think they'd be the surface i don't think they'd be given much bigger eyes than we have yeah given much bigger eyes than we have yeah given much bigger eyes than we have yeah want the shielding want the shielding want the shielding from from sunlight and yeah so uh i i think from from sunlight and yeah so uh i i think from from sunlight and yeah so uh i i think they would be similar but they would be similar but they would be similar but the way they would differ is they would the way they would differ is they would the way they would differ is they would have larger heads larger craniums have larger heads larger craniums have larger heads larger craniums and neurology more closely reflecting that and neurology more closely reflecting that and neurology more closely reflecting that of the tall grays of the tall grays of the tall grays because you'd want the tall because because you'd want the tall because because you'd want the tall because they would want them to be telepathic they would want them to be telepathic they would want them to be telepathic um so these may not even be um so these may not even be um so these may not even be capable of of human speech as we know capable of of human speech as we know capable of of human speech as we know it Or maybe they can. Maybe they could do both. But I have a feeling, you know, if you ever meet one, that it would be telepathic. Do you have any plans on going out there and doing some research for yourself? Yeah, let me get an oil drilling crew. Maybe not oil drilling, but I mean, we have to find a cavern down there. We have technology. Oh, well, yeah. But I asked Chet GPT what it would take to detect or map those caverns. Because they're so far down. Right. It would cost millions of dollars. Significant. Yeah, technology. I mean, you could detect voids down there probably for less money. But if you want to map the whole thing, it would cost a lot of money. So you'd need somebody like Elon Musk who could just write a check and not miss the money at all. Well, he's boring tunnels right now as we speak. Yeah, right. So you never know. He might come across one of these things eventually. Well, yeah, don't bore a tunnel in eastern Illinois. You might. Or do. Just be ready for anything. I mean, I think that would be disclosure. Is Elon Musk boring into a hybrid facility? I think that's how we get disclosure. But I was nervous to talk about the caverns when I first started writing the book. For fear of disclosure? For fear of like them being pissed? No, for fear of like, well, you know, if there's caverns or if there isn't caverns under eastern Illinois, that's testable, right? Yeah. So if somebody were to take me seriously enough to investigate, that's testable. And wouldn't they throw out? I wouldn't throw out my whole story if one aspect of the story. So I hesitated, but I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to tell it all. I'm just going to tell everything I saw, everything I encountered. But I'm going to stay in my lane. If I have a theory or an idea about something, I'm not going to say I'm the expert and this is how it is. I'm going to tell you, all right, this is just a theory. This is just ideas that I've plucked and I've put together because I think it could be this way. Sure. But in terms of like what I. Firmly believe I'm going to stay in my lane and I'm going to stick to what I encountered, what I experienced. Which you believe is the gray Zetas. Yeah. Is there do you leave any room in your mind whatsoever for the implication that they may be just that the phenomenon might be something totally different, but that it appears to you in this way? Is there is there any of that that you reserve? Because there is there's so many stories that tell a different. Different story slightly of the whether it's the appearance of the creatures or whether it's in the motives are similar. But I mean, there's been encounters with other species. You know, there's the mantis, the mantid beings, even among the grays. Like, even if you look at, well, there's even Barney Hill, who you mentioned earlier. Right. It's different. They have different slit like eyes and there's different. Well, there's different. I believe that the Zeta grays seeded other gray species on other planets. I see. And so you have the big nose grays. Linda Holt Moulton Howe talked about this in a documentary I saw. A Sumerian. Right. The big nose grays are the ones behind the Sumerian gods. I think they were engineering emissaries. But I think that the Zeta grays were the puppet masters for these others. So you have the Gleesi grays, the ones from the I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right. Gleesi or Gleesa that look. They have the epicanthic eye fold that makes them look almost Asian. Right. Yeah. The ones in Aztec. Okay. Were similar to those. Yeah. But they had little noses too. Yeah. So there's different species of grays. And I don't discount other people seeing those, but I didn't see those types. I didn't see a mantid being. I didn't see any reptilians. But there was one type of creature that I perceived to be a doctor on one of their facilities. And I woke up in a standstill. I woke up in a standstill. I woke up in a standing position in a gray room. And there was a cylinder in the middle of the room from the floor to the ceiling connecting. And there was like a eight or nine foot tall doorway and it was brightly lit from inside. But the room itself was dark. And there was a dozen or 18, I don't know how many tall grays, very tall grays, like 70 feet tall, in the back of the room observing me interacting with what I thought was a doctor. And it was a much smaller room. And it was a much smaller creature, but it wasn't a short gray. It wasn't a skinny bob. It was something else. It had darker skin. I can't remember the color. I can't remember his face because it was some kind of screen memory where I kept trying to see it as human. But it appeared like a frog. So my brain is thinking, well, what human looks like a frog? And so I thought of the actor Wallace Shawn. Inconceivable. I'm not going to pull him up, by the way. Poor Wallace. I love that guy. No, he's great. I mean, he's one of my favorites. But so I am like, okay, well, it's obviously not him. But this thing had big cheeks and big bulbous eyes and kind of a paunched belly, like sticking out. Not unlike what Whitley described. Right. And it had very long fingers with like pads on the ends. And it was, I woke up in a standing position and this thing was cupping my testicles. I was naked. And I was upset. Because when he touched me down there, I felt like waves of like electricity moving up into my kidneys and it was uncomfortable. And I don't know what he was interested in, but he was checking me out, like diagnosing something. And then I'm like, why are you touching me down there? I was like giving him a hard time. I was being belligerent, but I was kind of half out of it, too. I was just annoyed. I don't like being woken up and taken out of my bed and showing up in some strange place. You know, I'm not going to be nice to you. Um, so I was belligerent, being belligerent toward this thing. And it stood up and walked and, and, uh, toward this cylinder in the middle of the room and went into the lighted door. And I was standing there and, and I was looking and the greys were still, the tall greys are still watching me just kind of like chatting amongst themselves. And I could hear their telepathy between them. It was a little bit annoying, but I, I ignored it for a while. And then. This creature came out again, but I perceived it to be a different doctor. Like maybe that one got sick of me, you know, bashing it. Um, so I thought it was a different doctor. So then I'm like, oh yeah, that other doctor, he was like touching my balls and he was like, I don't know why I was talking. I was so focused on that, you know, like, cause it was a violation and I didn't like it. And, um, so, um, he led me to these benches. Like he was sitting on a bench. And I was standing near the other bench originally, but he made me sit down on the bench and then he had these very long spindly arms and he stuck it on my abdomen and he was kind of moving his hands up and down. And he said, you have an enemy inside you, but you're going to feel better in a few days. And I didn't understand what he meant, but while he was talking to me, I would, and I was trying to like talk back to him and those tall greys in the background. And they were, they were, you know, it was like gibberish to me. I didn't understand what they were saying to each other, but there was more than a dozen voices all at the same time. And I was getting upset with them because their telepathy was interfering, was interfering with, with, uh, you know, but I was vocally trying to talk to this doctor. And I wasn't trying to use telepathy with him. I was vocally talking to him, but I could hear them perfectly. So I got annoyed with them and I, I'm like, I did this, like, shut up, go away. And. They all shut up at the same time, simultaneously, like, like a switch had gone off. And then they turned around their backs to me and they went further back against the wall, deeper into the shadows where I couldn't see them. And then I could see their shoulders rotating just enough that I knew that they were turning back around to look at me, but they were observing. Why were they there? Why would all of these people take time out of whatever they're doing in this facility to sit here and gawk at me naked? With this doctor thing, I didn't understand why, like, why am I so interesting? Ungrockable. Ungrockable. There's no way, like, I think instantly when I hear that of like, what the feeling would be like pulling a fish out of water, you know, and being like, and the fish going, what is all this? What is all this? And why are they looking at me? You know, like, what's so interesting that they have to stand, or are they like student doctors, you know, observing. But anyway, when I woke up. Um, I, because after, after he said that thing to me and after I shoot off those other people, uh, I went unconscious. And then when I woke up, I was back at home, I was in my bed and suddenly my GERD was gone. And these sharp pains that I used to have in my stomach were gone. And, and I'm like, there's no pressure. There's no pain. I push on my belly. There's it's gone. And, but he said I had an enemy inside of me when he said it originally. I thought he said. I'm like, what's your, like an, an enemy and an enemy. And I'm like, cause I, it could just the way the syllables came out. I'm like, and an enemy, what are you talking about? Surgeon. And, and then, and I replayed what he said in my mind. Oh, enemy. Okay. Um, so I woke up and I felt better instantly. I had the GERD for years and, and, and earlier that year, uh, or actually the previous, I started having like really sharp stomach pains. The same time I grew up. was having them, well, hers ended up being a type of cancer that, you know, that she had treated and she's fine. But, um, so it made me think, well, did I have stomach cancer or cancer somewhere else in my gut? Um, but when he was done touching my, my abdomen, he slumped, he collapsed into his chair and he slumped and he had this saddest look on his face. Like he was completely exhausted. I thought maybe I was just insulting him so much and just giving him such a hard time that he, he was, you know, just like sad, but, or maybe because he was healing me in some way. Just depleted. I depleted him because it was a bad enough problem. Maybe I had some kind of cancer and he took care of it because he called it an enemy inside me. I don't, maybe he lacked the vocabulary to call it anything else. You know, maybe he, he wasn't a native English speaker and, and they have the technology to think whatever they think. And then I'm, it's perceived on my end as English. That's translated with your mind. I don't know how, I'm not even going to speculate. Yeah. Or maybe he's like some alien witch doctor. Yeah. I don't know. But, uh, but it was, it was a different kind of creature and I can't remember its face. And that's the only other, like you never met any mantids, never any humanoids, never any half breeds. Nothing like that. Yeah. Wow. Just, just, just the two types of grays I've only remembered. What was the last experience you had? March of 2024. Whoa. That's almost two years ago. Exactly. Yeah. It was, uh, I went to bed having had a couple of whiskeys. I had, uh, two, um, cocktails. They were called old fashions. You know, it's got simple syrup in it and some cherry juice and, uh, bitters and, uh, and I like to smoke them with, uh, oak, oak wood. I would have back then, I would have a drink, maybe one, once a week on a weekend, uh, or if I really was enjoying the drink, I might make myself a second one because I was enjoying that, that slight buzz. Then just watching a movie and relaxing. Uh, don't have to drive, don't have to be anywhere just so I'd have a second one. Sure. And, uh, so I went to bed a little, little happy, a little inebriated and, uh, fell asleep right away. Um, and I woke up and I was in a, uncharacteristically brightly lit white room, white, which is weird. Normally it's gray. And, uh, and I was sitting on a, like a reclined cushioned, I'd say a chair of some kind. And, uh, I was surrounded by, uh, three tall grays and the two that were closest to me were, uh, talking amongst themselves, but I, I couldn't understand. It was like gibberish to me. And then they were trying to talk to me. They looked directly at me and, um, they said, uh, said something and I couldn't understand it. But then finally some words came through that I could understand and it was, you shouldn't drink alcohol. And I was insulted by that because it's not like, um, I'm an addict or an alcoholic. You know, I, I, uh, I have one drink a week. Sometimes two weeks goes by three weeks and then I'll have another one. You know, it's like that. Um, so I was insulted that they would tell me what to do. I don't like being told what to do. I don't even like bosses telling me what to do. Yeah. Um, so, so I swore at them. I said, F you, you know, I haven't had a drink in two weeks since that Thursday, two weeks ago. And I think they didn't like that I said that. And they kind of looked at themselves and they looked back at me and then I went unconscious. And, um, in the next ensuing few weeks, I decided, I decided to make myself another drink and I made, uh, the same cocktail, the same type of old fashioned. And when I went to drink it, I hated it. It tasted off. It tasted weird. I just didn't like it. And, and I felt, I look at the drink, like it had betrayed me in some way, like what, what's with you. And, um, and ever since then I've lost any desire whatsoever to ever relax using alcohol. It's gone. It's just gone. And, uh, now if I'm with friends or family and we're having pasta and there's red wine being passed around, I'll have a glass, but I don't like the feeling of a buzz anymore. I don't even like it. Even that relaxed feeling. I feel like I've completely lost my desire for that. And I used to love it. I mean, if they're harvesting you in any capacity, I mean, it is in their best interest to have you stop drinking, right? Right. I guess. Right. And, and, um, and maybe it was contributing to my ill gut health. Right. Which they just fixed. Right. And they're like, we paid a lot of money for this alien witch doctor. Right. Um, so you had some type of intergalactic intervention. Um. That's a funny way to put it. Uh, I mean, are you, and that's, that's two years ago. And since then you've just not even. Yeah. I had during 2024, I had a few impressions where I might have had an encounter that I'd seen before, but I had no memory of it. Yeah. Okay. It was just an impression. Cause you talked about these waves of 20 years, four years, 20 years, four years. Are you, you feel like this is the end of that four year interim, that term? Yeah. 2020. So it started in 2020 that I'm aware of. Yeah. And then it ended in 2024. So I don't expect them back for another 18 years. Hmm. Um, if they come back, I mean, what's, um. Like my, would I still be a viable donor? Sure. In my seventies. Or, or maybe they're just looking to see. See what happens, you know, to their experiment. Yeah. What, um, in 18 years time, you're going to think of a, you're going to think of something to, to write down on a poster. What's that going to be? What are you going to, what are you going to write down on that poster? Fuck off. Let me enjoy it old fashioned. I've earned it. I'm just going to say F off. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Fair enough. No, I, I want nothing to do with them. I'm not even curious. Well, I'm still curious about them because I feel like my only form of empowerment in the face of complete loss of agency that they have the ability to impose upon people like me. I, my only, my only power empowerment in this is talking about it and, and, and trying to understand them as completely as possible. And that's why I was so interested in, in ancient astronaut theory. Um, you know, as I, you know, I understand people can make fun of that show, uh, ancient aliens. I still love the show because there's a lot that they do. Right. Yeah. There's a lot to love there. Yeah. But anytime they start talking about, could there be some kind of portal, you know, this, there's a little cut in the rock and they're calling it a portal, like, give me a break. All right. But they still get a lot, right. And I was so happy that I got to be on the show last season. That was so cool. Um, even though they, they covered like 2%. I don't know my story. I mean, there's so much I haven't even told you yet, but it's, it's okay. I mean, I there's, there's it's, everything is in the book. I'm, I'm, I'm saving one thing for myself that I did not put in the book because it was too disturbing for me, but well, um, well, the arm surgery, we didn't talk about that. Oh yeah. Sure. Yeah. Let's talk about it. All right. So in, uh, 2022, I think it was July. I forget. I put it in the book. Um, but even that estimate of the time is in a, might be an approximation because I did my best to reconstruct which dates happened with which encounters I did my best. So if some of them are off, I, you know, I did my best, but, um, I became aware of pain in my left arm in my sleep. It was a black sleep and I wasn't dreaming. There was no imagery in the sleep. And I became aware of pain in my left arm. It was excruciating. It was like a dull ache capped off by a sharp pain. Like, like you cut yourself that kind of a sharp pain, uh, combined with a really dull ache. And, uh, so I opened my eyes because the pain was so bad. And the first thing I noticed that I wasn't in my bedroom and I look at my feet and I noticed I'm laying on a metal table, a pewter gray metal table. Uh, it was, it was about this much wider than me. And I'd say it was, uh, about six feet, five inches long. So it's longer than I was tall and, um, fit for a human. Yeah, exactly. And, uh, I, I looked down. Yeah, I know. So I knew I wasn't in my, my room and I was in this strange gray facility and I was missing from above the elbow, just clean off gone. But the strangest thing was that there was no blood on the table next to me, next to my body. Not a, not a single drop of blood was next to me. And, um, I, as, as entranced as I was in as muted as my senses were, the pain was excruciating, but the fear response that you would naturally have. Such an instance was still gone. I didn't have a fear response, but I had like a, like a, a restrained panicked awareness. it's hard to describe like this this this this can't be real like a dissociation like i was dissociated you know with with other encounters and um so i i looked like i could move my head again like in other encounters where i was paralyzed i could move my head but not my body and i looked to my left and further like i'd say about five feet away from the maybe six feet away from the table i was laying on was a metal cart uh i didn't see any wheels or anything i just it was a single shaft holding in the center of a of a metal table and uh i assume it was a cart it could have been just a table i don't know i don't know if it was mobile but uh my arm was on there and i could see the humerus bone sticking out from the meat and there was no blood not a drop of blood wasted around you know on that cart you Uh around the arm and and there wasn't even a drop of blood like on on the tissue surrounding the cut it was perfect it was perfect it was like butchered meat like you bled the thing dry before you cut it open and that was my meat i was looking at freshly butchered me it was like you know i know it sounds you know ridiculous to say it that way but it i i i just couldn't process what i was seeing and um it hurt so bad and um i tried to turn my head to the right and i and i had difficulty doing that uh i lost consciousness but i was aware that there was something to the right of me somebody something there was movement to the right of me and it was approaching the table when i passed out again i woke up uh and i was back in my bed at home and my arm was killing me and the first thing i looked down now it's there like okay why does it hurt so bad and i look and there's there's no sutures there's no scarring nothing but my elbow is kind of swollen i'm like all right that that hurts you know and then uh i got up well maybe i'll take a hot shower and and it'll it'll feel better you know it'll like loosen up or something i take a hot shower it just gets worse and and within an hour it's frozen solid at a 90 degree bend i couldn't move my elbow for an entire month um but then uh the interesting thing was that uh you know normally how they come every four to six weeks i told you about that well they came exactly one week later and i woke up and i again i wasn't in my room i was laying on a cushioned surface and somebody was holding me up and i was like oh my god i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna my hand my right hand and my left hand arm was was stretched out to the left i i made an illustration of this uh a tall gray was bending over uh that side the left side of my bed my bed i say my bed but it was like the cushion i was it was uh covered in like a tight white canvas like a soft white canvas it was the closest i could describe it uh it wasn't like sheets there was no top sheet or it was just a just a fabric cover of some kind tight like like it was part of the cushion and so um this tall gray was was leaning over that side of the bed or cushion and he had he was running his hands up and down the length of my arm and he was focusing mostly over the elbow excuse me and um while he was doing that i was being distracted by somebody holding my right hand and i look and i noticed a pair of feet that came only down to my knees that was kind of weird and then i looked to the left and i perceived it to be a young woman or maybe a a young girl holding my hand and she said uh she looked at me but it was a short gray and and she said do you have something you want to tell me i couldn't think of anything i was confused by the question and uh and i said no um i think i said something like i thought she was flirting with me so i i said something like uh well i'm not married or anything it's a strange thing to say but i i was so out of it i was so confused um and then i went unconscious and then i woke up i was back at home again uh and then a week later i was back home and i was like oh my god i'm not married i'm not married i'm not married i'm not married and then a week later another encounter where i woke up in a standing position again in a gray room and there was a very tall gray standing over me and uh i was unsteady on my feet because i just became conscious on in a standing position and um being on so unsteady it it guided me by my shoulders to a railing along the wall it reminded me of the kind of railing you would see in a dance studio like a ballet right would use when they're doing their stretches and things um and so i held on to that to steady myself and then what it did was it grabbed my shoulders again and turned me toward it the tall gray and then um it it grabbed my left arm and was running its hands again over my elbow and in both of these instances i had a slightly less inflammation the next morning and slightly better range of motion but it didn't really get better until a full month had gone by it's like et physiotherapy or something like maybe they were healing it in some way and your impression of of the reason for this was i know we spoke last night was bone bone marrow yeah i think they took bone because you looked at significant you looked at symptoms of what that would feel like and what the recovery was like and it was very similar you found out yeah yeah i actually used chat gpt to uh to tell me what would be if this happened if we say this actually happened sure if i'm if i'm not like you know out of my mind on this thing yeah uh if if my suspicion that bone marrow was extracted from my humerus bone my left humerus bone what would the symptoms be what would recovery be like what would all that yeah and it described exactly what i experienced there'd be pain radiating into the joint uh until the marrow had grown back and there'd be swelling at the joint you're gonna check out uh i had my girlfriend at the time uh do an x-ray and i completely forgot that i'd done an x-ray so when i wrote the book i'd forgotten i'd done the x-ray she said it showed nothing there was no seam on the bone like no cut uh it was nothing unusual so if it had been cut whatever they did to put me back together was perfect except for the fact that there was inflammation um she said she said there's some minor uh i i had minor uh but nothing nothing to be worried about uh a little bit of uh arthritis okay and but uh it's the same thing in this joint but it only flares up if i eat bad food okay you know um but i'm at that age where i'm starting to get a tiny little bit of arthritis in some of my joints but nothing like this nothing like what happened with my left arm that was and it was awaking like as i'm talking to you i know i'm not dreaming you know yeah you're not dreaming me right now this is what it feels like to be awake yeah well yeah it's it's why i didn't bring up you know the sleep paralysis or the because so many people's head goes to that but like you speak that's a fair assumption it is a fair assumption for for some um because they are there are similarities to to draw lines between sleep paralysis especially with you wait it's at night you're up you're paralyzed it feels real like all of these are symptoms of sleep paralysis and so it's it's a very subjective reality you know i've had out-of-body experiences and i can tell you that those were not awake experiences but they weren't lucid dreams either and so you know i don't know if i'm describing a new type of dream that we haven't really defined yet i've i've had an obe but only because i was training myself to have one yeah so you mentioned the book in 1995 and it scared you it scared me i i felt like uh did you see the movie ghost yeah where where when when when you walk through a ghost when you when you walk through a ghost or walk through a wall there's like this like tearing velcro sound yeah like a whoosh yeah okay i had that same sound that's what i felt when when um i was separating i i had a book that was on my father's shelf i borrowed it it was uh i i think his father was into uh some of that mystical occult stuff but you never talk about it because he's such a scientific guy but he he was a high-ranking mason i don't i don't know if they're they're into that stuff but um but it was called uh projection of the astral body by carrington and maldune and uh originally written in 1929 but the copy that i had was a 1947 reprint and i studied it in 1995 and i was training myself to wake up at the same time every night until i didn't need the alarm anymore and then you'd start to wake up in your sleep in a lucid state uh as a result of this this disciplined period of waking up at the same time and and then you could introduce a suggestion to your mind like all right i want to do this thing where i separate from my body i wanted to try it Cause I heard about it and it just seemed like a interesting thing to do. And I was living alone and, um, and I succeeded on two occasions. One time I woke up and the ceiling was in my face and I freaked out and I snapped back and I was instantly fully awake. Um, and then another time I was laying on my right side and I felt myself separating out parallel to my body out away from the bed into the room. And I just felt so vulnerable anytime I'd separated that I'd freak out and snap back. I don't ever want to do it again. Yeah. It happened to me, um, few times involuntarily and it was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life. Yeah. Uh, but instantly after it happened, I was like, I gotta, I gotta do that again. I want to do that again. Like. I won't do it again. It, it, it just feel too vulnerable. Oh, it was so scary. And you feel like this, you feel this presence. Not of a thing, but like that you're not supposed to be there. Like, that's what I got from it. I was like, oh, I'm in a space in some liminal existence that I am unfamiliar with. Although everything looks familiar. This isn't this I'm, I'm not, I'm not in my room. I felt like I could be attacked. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I just didn't like that. It's new. It's a, yeah. You're in a new space. Yeah. Um, so I get that, but then I, I pursued it through the gateway process and ended up, you know, meditating four months. One hour a day at like four 30 in the morning and ended up leaving my body a whole bunch of times after that. I'm not like this, you know, into crystals and, and, and, and higher consciousness and the CE five contact and Kumbaya and meditating in Sedona, Arizona. I'm not into all that stuff. Um, but what I'm saying is that like your experience from having an OBE to the objective reality that you describe with the ET and the tall grass. Are different. They are not the same feeling. Okay. It, it, it's like, it's like I said, it's like being, it's, it's like. Because the sleep paralysis is much closer to the OBE feeling. Right. Right. And, um, I would say that, uh, the closest thing to the entrancement that you experienced during abduction is more similar to, uh, the dissociation, like your disconnect when, when you're, you're going through something traumatic. You're disconnecting from it and you're seeing everything in slow motion because your mind is trying to stay ahead of this thing that's happening to you that you don't want to accept. Is there a chance that what was happening to you was happening to the non-physical you? Do you ever consider that? Because there is that too with these interactions. No, I had physical symptoms afterwards. I, you know, uh, and, and, um. But you never consider that any of these abductions might've been a non-physical abduction? No, they were always physical. And. One time, one time, uh, I was forced to have intercourse and I didn't talk about this in the book. It, it bothered me, but, uh, you, you felt everything. Yeah. But you had no control over your actions, what you were doing. Um, and despite like this, this horrific feeling, like, what am I doing to this thing? This person, you just, but you know, this little voice, no, it's okay that you're doing this. It's okay that you, but you know, you're just horrified. And I'm trying to remember the face of the person. It's real. It's real. Yeah. But, but it's, uh, but, but there was like, uh, there was this imposition, this screen memory was, was working that time. And, and I couldn't remember what I was actually seeing, but, but I put the, the physical sensation down below was real. Um, oh, by the way, um, there's something I did want to talk about. Like the, the routine semen collection, the sample collection, we didn't talk about that Um, there was one encounter I had where they used a device on me. That's right. And you brought that. I saw it. Yeah. So I recreated, I did a 3d print of it and you could take pictures of it or whatever, but, um, it, it looked like a three-sided, uh, pyramidal cone and they place it down over your, your genitals and, uh, and it's instant extraction. I don't remember the feeling down there during the extraction. Uh, but I was like, oh, my God. I was only awake for maybe 15 seconds during that encounter. But, uh, there was another screen memory during that collection where, um, the, the short gray that was, uh, crawling onto my bed at the foot of my bed up toward me, um, briefly looked like a very ugly woman that, that resembled somebody I knew, uh, asking me if I wanted. Oral fellatio. Right down there. And, uh, I, I feel I'm in. Embarrassed saying it. Uh, but yeah, if I wanted that and I was, I was confused, I, I was kind of out of it and, and who doesn't like that sort of thing. So I'm like, I said, sure. Okay. But then when this creature, you know, was about to make as if they were going to put their head down there, uh, they pulled their head back and had this, this cup, this black pyramidal triangle thing that it was shaped like a, an athletic cup on the open end. Put it on top of me down there and instant extraction. Instant, yeah. Yeah. It just, whatever it does to the nerves down there, it just manipulates the nerves, causes the ejaculate, and it just, yeah. Wild. So that's what they use. So as far as I know, I'm the only person who's ever described the actual device, or at least that particular device. Yeah, at least one of them. Yeah. Maybe there's other types that they use, but the one that they used on me was a black three-sided pyramidal cone, and it was like slightly truncated at the top. It wasn't a sharp point. It was like flat at the top, but mostly, yeah. Nothing attached to it? No, it was just- Self-contained? Yeah. Whatever technology it is, it's pretty advanced. Yeah. That's wild. Well, thanks for sharing. I appreciate you opening up about all that. I think it's obviously something that's difficult to talk about. I think we have to talk about it. Well, I think so, too. I had a gentleman here, Peter Curry. If you haven't watched that interview or his story, and I spoke to you a little bit about one of his encounters with the hair of the alien, but he's also had encounters with greys, and he's been also, according to him, forcibly imposed on another person. That's horrific. So, he's had all of these very similar encounters. He's been introduced to his offspring. You know, same- Okay. Same things that you're saying. And there's so many- I'd like to talk to him. Yeah, I'll put you in touch with Peter. He's a very friendly, very nice guy, and very open. And, you know, it was very difficult for him to talk about this stuff, too, because on one hand, it is not only personal, obviously, the most personal, but on the other hand, it is extremely open to ridicule. It is. And it's one of those things that, like, obviously, there are jokes here. You know, they're obviously, you're a smart guy. We can see the jokes here. But those are just comfort mechanisms. Right. You know, that people- People don't want to accept something that would change their paradigm for them. Exactly. And so, naturally, you go to that as a defense mechanism. And let's just set aside any suggestion that I'm doing this to sell a book. Sure. I would love to sell my book, okay? But only 1% of authors become bestsellers. I still need my full-time job. Yeah. And- And I have no illusions of quitting that anytime soon. If I become a famous author, it's probably because I'm writing about something else. You know, these- Yeah. Memoirs that are strange like this. Like, well, Communion did very well, but I wrote this because the act of writing it- Was cathartic. Was cathartic, was therapeutic. Yeah. And it allowed me to create a permanent record of everything so I don't forget some of it. And then I illustrated my experiences while I was writing the book, and that also was cathartic. That allowed me to confront on a more visceral cognitive level that, you know, where I could deal with it more emotionally. I've had five years to deal with this on an emotional level, and that's why I can come here and seem almost flippant talking about it. I'm not flippant. But I think everybody that has these experiences should come forward because if we can have this serious conversation as a nation, as a people, maybe we can stand up and do something about it. I don't know if that's possible. Maybe it's too late. But if it's possible to thwart this agenda, it's like, I want conformed consent. Maybe it is best that we're replaced. You know, by some measures, we suck as a species. Think about it. But- I think we're all so beautiful. Our art, our music, our poetry, our literature, our architecture, you know, some of these gorgeous old cathedrals and the way we paint the ceilings. And there's so much that we do that comes from our inspiration that would be lost in a species that is telepathic only. I think you lose something. It's worth preserving. I think there's a lot worth preserving in humanity. And I want to see if we could be the ones that beat the odds and be the voiced species that can actually persist for more than 50,000 years or however long we've been Homo sapiens. You know, there's one thing I will add to this because that argument will come up and it's like, oh, he's trying to sell a book. For every person who's had experiences who's selling a book, there are 1,000 other people who are not selling a book who are telling the exact same story. And so, you know, that argument for me isn't valid at all. If you take the time, as many of, you know, the phenomenon sort of predecessors have, you can quickly paint a really vast picture of the multitude and, yeah, just the numerous cases that exist. That are echoing mostly similar concepts. And think about the risk I'm taking. Of course. Or people like me would take. Yeah. By using my real name, I'm basically making myself unemployable to anybody. Yeah. I apply for a job on Indeed and if they Google my name, it's like, oh, UFO nut. No, forget it. And why would you make up things that make you appear so vulnerable? Right, exactly. You know what I mean? Instead of making you out to be perhaps a hero. Right, right. You know. If I'm going to make something up. You're going to be the protagonist. Right. I'm going to make myself look good. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Let's get to, I got a few audience questions. Absolutely. We were generously given a bunch of questions by our lovely audience over at Discord. If you're a member here, you know, you get access to many things. And one of those things is asking potentially our guests a question. And they always have better questions than I do collectively. So, I'm excited to see what they got today. So, this question by Kazane says, Is Michael Herrera's account of human trafficking related to the contract you refer to in A Blood Covenant? I don't know who Michael Herrera is. So, Michael Herrera is a military whistleblower who had an encounter, I believe, in Indonesia, where he was part of like some elite sort of SEAL team. And they were there on a humanitarian mission, apparently, to extract, uh, people, um, from danger because it was like a flood. And as him and his, I think, six people total were walking down this sort of mountainous jungle terrain, they spot this octagonal black disc hovering over the trees. And he goes, all right, let's go check it out. And they get down there and they are met with just guns pointed at their heads, immediately unbadged military personnel who were like, we're loading up what seemed like people. Um, and he says that there are, I might be mistaken, but that these, uh, reverse engineered craft were used to take people, um, children and all types of people for whatever use. What country was it in? I think it was in Indonesia, if I'm not mistaken. But it was, uh, it was some Asian country and they were immediately like, outmanned, outgunned, the tech, the gear, the clothing, the vehicles were all modern and no flags, no badges, no names. And they were being like yelled at and accosted. Their phones were taken. Everything was like shut down for them. And he came forward and he tried to reach out to some of the people that came forward, uh, that, that witnessed that as well. They would not come forward and they were like, please do not contact me ever again. Uh, but they were basically told to shut the hell up about it. I would ask what were, what were the blood types of the people that were taken? So you think there, um, do you think there's an active agreement with the government in terms of supplying fresh blood? That's a possibility. But, uh, I think that, uh, they don't have any problem abducting people. They don't need our help for that. But here's the thing. I don't think that they're going to, uh, abduct people for the sake of blood harvesting. From their homes because it's too visible. Uh, so if it's a home abduction, they get put back and it's not for the purpose of, but maybe they take a little blood, you know, maybe they're culturing cell lines. It's mostly, it's mostly reproductive. Right. But, um, but I think that if you have people camping in. National parks. Right. National parks in the wilderness. And, and if they happen to be type O, they might not come back. Um, because people disappear in the wilderness all the time. They may be a bear dragged them off. I mean, there's, there's, it's easy. Possible deniability. Exactly. Uh, not that, you know, some people say, well, why would they need possible deniability? They can, they don't leave any traces behind. They can just zip away with their little UFO. But I, I think that, uh, that they avoid home abductions for, for feeding purposes. And maybe just part of that agreement too. You know, it's, it's so strange. I hear myself saying all this stuff. Like, like this is like, it's such an esoteric. Yeah, it's sci-fi. Right. Exactly. It's like, we're, we're, we're theorizing now. Of course. This is, we're speculating. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, um, in terms of the blood covenant thesis that I, I, uh, talk about in my second book, um, that's absolutely plausible that in exchange for technological advantage, uh, a government agency or a group might be willing to engineer an exchange, uh, to feed the tall grays. And sort of turn a blind eye. Um, so, so that's why I ask what blood type are they? Because I'll bet you they're O positive or O negative. Otherwise. If it has to do with that at all. Right. Okay. Uh, next question from Chris Ost-TX, I'm thinking Austin, Texas. So cool. We kind of touched on this, but, uh, do you, do you have more information about the grays underground facility? I only have the map that I was shown. Um, and I did, uh, sort of a armchair forensic analysis of the area to determine that, um, it is geological. It is geologically possible for such structures to exist and nothing in current geological assays, uh, have been done at that depth that would show or, or disprove caverns in, in that area. And if you want to see a map of, of where I'm placing those caverns, according to the map I was shown, I've recreated versions of the map. I've already put it up at this point. Okay. Yeah. Great. And, uh, last one here. It's a great question by Slug. Slug asks, what does the word abduction not capture about what actually happens? When you think of the word abduction, like you'll think of somebody being kidnapped, uh, maybe they're killed or maybe they're held for ransom or something like that. Um, usually the person is just kept confined. Um, uh, maybe they're raped, uh, maybe they're tortured or harmed, but, uh, but for the most part, it's something that either ends where the person, you know, escapes or is returned or, or their life has ended. Um, but that's something that most people can put, wrap their heads around. Um, but in, in terms of humans abducting humans. Um, you know, you don't have somebody controlling another person's neurology, robbing them of the ability to think clearly, robbing them of, of their agency. Like sometimes when people are abducted, they find a way to escape or wiggle free or something. You know, they, they have a small modicum of control that they can try to fight for. Um, the grays don't allow you even that much. They take everything from you. Um, if they want you to have sex with somebody, they can make you have sex with somebody. If, if they want you to be still, they can force you to be still. If they don't want you thinking of good questions or, or, or trying to engineer a way to escape from your situation, they, they can keep your mind clouded and confused the entire time. And I, I, I think the word abduction itself doesn't encompass the, the loss of agency. I mean, there is a loss of agency when a human is abducted by another human. Of course, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're taken against your will, of course, but the, the loss of agency imposed upon you by the grays is total. And that angers me more than anything. What they take, but they, they take things like I've always wanted more children, you know, and, and to be shown children, I can never touch or love or, or hold or no. That, that, that just, that just makes me shake with anger. You know, I, I, I hate these people. I hate. them i don't want them so you you ask me if they ever come back and i put another poster on my wall what it would say i would say fuck off i don't want you i i know they'll ignore it you know you know sometimes religious fundamentalists will will say oh you're you're uh your abductions are are merely uh demons coming to deceive you and blah blah blah um but they'll go away if you invoke the name of christ well i was raised christian i'm you know i'm aware of the concept you're not even given the the opportunity to formulate uh an objection in your mind against what they're doing to you and these are not non-corporeal these are not spiritual entities these are physical people that use technology and they're doing things to you physically it doesn't sound like it's a spiritual thing to you it's a spiritual thing to you like an angry ghost that has a gargoyle face that's like trying to corrupt your soul so you'll go to hell. It's nothing like that. These are people from another world and they're desperate and they're here for a reason. Some people can call their agenda evil because they're robbing us of our right to consent to their agenda. And some people can argue that they have no choice. the drowning man will always drag someone down with them. Right? So, you can look at both coins of the ethical, I'm sorry, both sides of the ethical coin on this and come up with an unsatisfying answer. Well, Eric, I want to thank you for being so candid. I really appreciate it. And I think It goes a long way for, you know, people out there possibly going through the same thing. Obviously this helps, but also for people who just want to lend an ear, you know, it's, it's really, it's a, it's the craziest hump for people to get over this stuff. You can't blame them. You can't blame anyone for being like, this is all horse crap, you know, like that's, you can't blame them. But for you to know that and to still come forward, I think takes a lot of courage. And so I applaud you and I thank you for, for doing that. And, you know, let's keep this conversation going and see what else we can we can come up with, hopefully collectively as a species. You know, if there's anything here to gleam, if there's any underlying ground truth to be surfaced, then I think that, you know, conversations like these have a play a very important part. I'm going to continue to write books that are related to them based on research and speculative science to try to understand them better. And hopefully draw out some more testimony from people out there who now, because of this, perhaps feel more comfortable to share. If people want to reach me through my author website or the book's website, angstintheshadows.com, I'm perfectly willing to communicate via email. We'll leave it below. We'll leave all the links in the description here. And also, if you're a member of the channel and you want an opportunity to win a signed copy, we're giving away a few. Eric was generous enough to bring a few extra copies here. So we have A Blood Covenant and Angst in the Shadows. I'll give those away. So just comment below if you're a member, and we'll pick a few of you, and we'll have those sent out to you. Eric, thank you again. You're welcome. Thank you.