Singapore Icons: Beyond the Minister… The untold story of Senior Minister K. Shanmugam 

Best of Let's Talk Singapore One day for one nation, one Singapore That's the way that we will be For ever more Yes, welcome to Singapore Icons Now When Singaporeans hear the name K. Shanmugen, many think of the law The courtroom, parliament Or some of Singapore's most dear National conversations But after four decades in public life The senior minister has been of One of Singapore's most recognizable Public figures serving under four prime ministers Which I definitely want to discuss Holding portfolios in law, foreign affairs, Home affairs and now national security But every public figure has two stories Yes, there's the one that we have to say In the news and then there's a person who existed Long before the titles, the courtroom, And the cabinet table This morning as part of our Singapore Icons Series leading up to national day We want to get to know the man behind the public image The childhood, the values, the doubts, the decisions And the moments that shaped a lifetime of public service So we are honored to welcome to the studio K. Shanmugen, senior minister Coordinating minister for national security And minister for home affairs Minister, good morning and welcome to let's talk Singapore Morning, thank you Great to have you Did you like the introduction? Was it okay? Well, I haven't issue with the term icon but any of you No, no Let's start there Singapore icon The definition of the word icon is a public figure Someone who is well known, someone who is respected, admired When we call you a Singapore icon What's your first reaction? Me, icon I can think of Well, some people having less polite terms But since the series and show is called then Okay, let's go with it Well, we have to because you know a lot of our listeners have written into When they guessed that you were having K. Shanmugen in the studio A lot of people turned to talk about How your work has impacted Singapore You know, your work often has been a lot of things You know, your work often involves crime, terrorism, national security, difficult legal questions So I'm curious, how close is that public perception to the real K. Shanmugen when the cameras are off? It's my job And I go to bed every night thinking, okay, you know, in terms of the framework Are we keeping Singapore safe? Or the crime rates low? You know, homicides? And long term thinking too, in terms of, you know, drug rates You know, you look around the world Societies are being devastated by drugs We take a very zero tolerance policy in Singapore Is it in the best interest of the majority of the population? These are questions you can't just assume You have to ask yourself And it is something that I keep asking myself about our policies You know, it's a job that I do across the various aspects of national security I've just identified a couple for you I want to talk about your worldview minister because I'm very fond of the maximum Give me a child until he is seven And I will show you the man It's absolutely true Absolutely true, I could not agree more I'm very curious to know about the young Mr. Shanmugen The Singapore of your childhood was very, very different There were religious tensions, racial tensions There were geopolitical and economic uncertainties How did that Singapore of your youth shape your worldview? At that age, to be honest, what shapes your worldview are your parents My parents was interested in current affairs So I developed an interest in current affairs at a fairly early age But the values in terms of the focus on academics, what kind of person you are, your character Those are values you imbibe through your family circumstances But I would say, you know, this qualification to the maximum of what gives me a child until seven And that is, I've had two significant quote-unquote educators as it were in later life One is in the practice of law When you are in a front line intense litigation I've seen people move into three sorts of categories One group, they can't handle it It affects them, their health, or they just move away from it It breaks them sometimes Another group, they carry on but not really being able to meet it The third group, it's really like being in fire You go through it and you become stronger, you're forged, and you're still I would say the litigation practice of over 20 years I developed many of the qualities that I have today Because it's basically combat every day, a variety of factors You go to court, you deal with the cases, the situations, they change You're arguing the opponent, the court room It's, you're standing there alone and dealing with everything It can break you or it can make you So your character is forged in fire as it were The second significant educator for me has been the groundwork as an MP Because in my constituency it's a, you know, H2B heartland Very good people, very nice people Over the years, multiple times, multiple multiple times I would have come across every single problem that an average Singaporean will have From immigration to birth to family issues, to financial issues, to health issues, to housing issues, to marriage issues, to get married, not to get married Everything you name it, every life decision At some point they will think that they need some help, they will come, they will talk to you You face them, you understand these issues And how they are dealt with leaves lasting impact on you You know, you can be like oil and water, that means you don't really allow it to permeate into you Or you can get fully involved and feel that it's part of you For me the latter was, you know, what happened So I feel fully involved, we need to solve these issues Either situation by situation or sometimes by a broader policy change So I would say that has had a significant impact in the way that I have developed as a person That takes me back to your Lord career What was it about Lord that appealed to you as a young man? Because when you think about it, you're learning about people, you're dealing with people every single day What was it about that particular profession that appealed to you? I would say I'm accidental lawyer It's not as if, I know it's a surprise because people think that I am careful and think through things I do now But the choice of law was completely accidental And I would say, you know, the law that I practiced, commercial litigation at the high end Doesn't really bring you in contact with people on the ground You're dealing with CEOs, the sea suite and M&Cs So two different worlds, politics and law, in that sense You know, I was a science student in school in junior college And I matriculated into the science faculty And I spent a week in science and I looked at my program It's like you started nine o'clock in the morning, three hours of lectures In the afternoon, three to three and a half hours of practicals Saturday mornings you go for another three to four hours of practicals I said, I didn't come into university to work so hard And coincidentally, purely coincidentally, I accompanied a friend who was matriculating into law And I said, 'All of 11 hours of lectures every week, and I said, 'What in Christ's sitch?' So I applied after matriculation, I wrote in and you know, I was invited for an interview with a dean She looked at me, we had a chat, and then she gave me a minute to say, 'Okay, you will be in Unless you change your mind, I give you one minute, there's a life-changing decision So we started each other for a minute, and then I said, 'Yes, I will. Go in.' In many ways, it's a stroke of luck, because I think I found my calling But no regrets about that one minute, life-changing decision No regrets whatsoever Wonderful, and of course we have to say that you built an extraordinary ad As usual, of course, you know, you've got to go beyond the book cover, is it worth? 11 hours of lectures was only the starting, but the amount of work you had to put in I think was quite substantial. So the number of hours of lectures doesn't tell you what the work Was required, but I enjoyed it Okay, well that's good that you enjoyed it, but you know, you built an extraordinary legal career Before entering politics, here's the question that many listeners may be wondering about You know, you had already reached the pinnacle, many would say, of a legal profession And you could have continued building one of Singapore's most successful legal careers What made you, intro-politics, in the first place, back in 1988? Was there a particular moment when you felt that public service was where you were meant to be? 1988, I was in the first place I was in practice for three years, went behind the years. I wouldn't say I had built a successful practice, but up and coming certainly, again, it was accidental. In the sense that the PAP has this practice of asking for names of people who are young, who appear to be doing well, or have done well in the university. So my name was, I think, put up. And I was called for the famous D sessions. And I set to them, look, I'm at that time, 28, 20, 7. Are you sure? No, I'm not married. I don't really have an experience of life. And what are you going to do with a young English educated lawyer, Indian, who doesn't speak Mandarin, or any of the other language other than Tamil? And how would people take me seriously? Oh, am I going to solve their problems? You're very hard on yourself, senior minister. I mean, to follow up on that, without being falsely modest, what do you think they saw in the young lawyer that you were? You said just now that you mostly work with C-suite leaders, CEOs. So you wasn't really on the ground then, as an MP has to be. So what do you think they saw in you? I think they assessed the quality of the mind, ability to analyze issues, personality, even though I hadn't dealt with the ground that I would be able to. That has to be an assessment, because I've been in the situation where I assess other people. These are the things you look for. I look for an ability to empathize, ability to understand the ground, and be problem solver on the ground. They must have assessed that. Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, I have to ask this question. One of the things that stands out to me in your political journey is longevity. You're one of the few Singaporeans, uniquely placed, who have served under four prime ministers since independence. Lee Kuan Yew, obviously, Go Chok Tong, Lee Sin Long, and now Law and Swang. Well, you'd have a very unique insight into working with Singapore's four different prime ministers, different men, different leadership styles. How would you describe your experience of working for all four? Mr. Lee Kuan Yew and Mr. Go Chok Dong, I was an MP. So I wouldn't say I worked closely with them, but I saw enough of them and their style, because very often we have discussions with the prime ministers or discussions with all the MPs, and sometimes also in small groups of three's, four's. And I saw them handle various crises, various issues that Singapore faced. You know, we always seem to be facing some issue, other because of our size and our neighbourhood. And then, of course, I work for quite a significant period as a minister serving in Mr. Lee Sin Long's cabinet and now under PM Wang. I think the fundamentals remain the same. It's the focus every decision is on the trade-offs we have to face, be hard-headed. I've always said hard-headed but soft-hearted. Empathy, a feeling for people to try and do the best. You can't satisfy everyone, but is a decision in the interests of the majority? Is this something that is in the interests of Singapore as a whole and people eventually, even if they don't realise it now, will benefit from it? And that was a basic drive of Mr. Lee Kwon Yew. The vision, the ability to understand what the issues are, the ability to implement to them and communicate them and get the public to buy in. You don't get Mr. Lee Kwon Yew in every generation. So we have Mr. Lee and then Mr. Goh, that those values were imbibed and people were chosen who could actually carry out with those sorts of values. The first generation chose the 2G to be the best possible representation of those values and each successive generation has been chosen in the best possible way. It's not going to be like for like, but do you have your heart in this? Are you going to be focused on public service? Are you going to do your best in the interests of people? Do you have the ability, I mean, you can have the best of intentions, but do you have the ability? I mean, let's not just be politically correct. Can you do it? I mean, no point appointing a very good man who can't get to run his ministry or envision, no, it's not capable. So you need a combination of qualities and I'm not saying that therefore, every single time they've succeeded. But that's been the ethos of every generation choosing the next generation of successes. That's one thing I personally admire about you putting the nation's interests first, no matter what. Whatever the religion, whatever the race, whatever the nationality, you do not hesitate when it comes to condemning, for example, extreme misbehavior that threatens our nation's stability. It's an obvious question, but one worth reiterating why must Singapore continue to put its needs first and remain vigilant when it comes to things like political extremism? We are 760 square kilometers. In your traffic announcements, you can go from Tuas to Changi legally on the expressway in what about 40, 45 minutes. And from Woodlands to Shentonway in about slightly less time assuming there are no jams, that's your country. In that little boat in this vast ocean that you call the world with the storms and the tribulations and the winds and the different things that are happening. If you are squabbling internally along racial lines, along religious lines, my God is superior to yogurt, or yogurt is superior to mine. And I say these nasty things about you because you're skin color or because of your religion, how are we going to face the world? It breaks big societies up. You look at the kind of problems people have elsewhere. Why do we need that? You want to pray, you want to talk good about your own religion by all means. You want to talk good about your own race, fine. Don't run somebody else down. It's been a mantra for me. It's something that started with early legislation and we have not taken the approach that people will stay away from it. 95% of people will not get into that. But the 5% who do can inflame passions and the responses can be quite violent, as you have seen elsewhere. And then when you allow 5% to do it, that number will go to 10%. You talk about Christians or Muslims or Jews or Chinese or Indians. And people start trading in selves along these lines and it does create divisions. It deepens the fault lines. It prevents you from achieving that degree of social harmony that we have, that helps us go forward. So I have no compunction at all on being tough on this. In fact, updated the racial religious harmony, but even though when it was first introduced, as a young member of parliament, I expressed some doubts about it. And up to now people will quote me on that. But you learn. One of the things about having mind is that you must learn from your experiences and what you see. So I tell people I've learned. I see and I'm prepared to justify. So I've toughened up the law. And then I introduce another piece of legislation called the racial harmony, "Burb," which became act, all along the same lines. And so in Singapore, you don't have people going out there criticizing somebody else on the basis of race and religion and talking down and having hate speech. And if they do, sometimes they do, we deal with them. We are just getting started on your political career, minister. And you mentioned a few key things earlier that after all of your experience of serving under four prime ministers, the fundamentals remain the same. You also talked about the storms, the trials and tribulations. And you have watched Singapore evolve across multiple generations. What has changed the most about Singapore or about governing Singapore over all of these decades? And how has your own philosophy of leadership also evolved along the way? If you look at the last 40 years, look at some basic facts. Our GDP has grown 30 times. It's incredible. Today in absolute terms, we are not talking about per capita in absolute terms, Singapore is the, has the second smallest population in Asia, the smallest land size, but the second largest economy. Just imagine that, second largest economy. You have Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, all these countries, 300,000 square kilometers or more, the resources they have. You know, you name the resource, they have palm oil, oils, other resources, they are agricultural produce. We have only our people and we have 760 square kilometers. But our economy is the second largest, second only to Indonesia, it's bigger than every other economy. 30 times bigger compared with 40 years ago that explains the kind of Singapore you see around. You look at law and order and safety and security was always from Mr. Lee Kwon-yu's times. He focused a lot on safety and security. It's always a safe place. But I think we have managed to maintain that, the whole idea that you know, you can just walk 95% of women say when you do surveys that they feel safe walking home alone at night. There aren't that many international cities where you can say that. The safety, the security and if you look at the institutions we have built over the last 40 years. Today internally we are a much stronger country. We have good institutions. They have a proper framework, good education system, the health care system is among the best in the world and all within a framework where taxes compared with most countries are relatively lower. So it's been one where the country has progressed regularly, steadily over the years and then you look back over a 10 or 20 year period suddenly looks spectacular particularly given the kind of headwinds that we and other countries face. You talk about the Asian financial crisis or the great financial crisis, SARS, COVID and these are the headline events but there are many others. Tariq Slashtia that the US has imposed on well-trade many many issues but overall we managed to keep steady, build a better life for generations of Singaporeans and where we look forward to the future with quiet optimism while recognizing that we always work in progress and that our inherent vulnerability comes from our size, lack of resources and therefore we need to make up in other ways. Minister, my wife could front all of your national campaigns. She always says you never take Singapore's safety for granted you're not a woman you don't understand. We should go up to her and do. Oh, I want to bring it back to you. It's related to national security as well. I had learned this when prepping for this show that during major national events such as the National Day Parade, the National Day Rally, when the President and the Prime Minister and most of the cabinet are gathered in one place. You know where I'm going with this. You are Singapore's designated survivor. The idea is simple but the responsibility is huge. Should a national catastrophe occur then you remain the one senior leader outside of the event as a designated survivor. I have so many questions about this. Number one, do we have a designated survivor for this radio show? That's what I need to know. That would be you. Probably. And number two, how does it feel to have this kind of national responsibility to be our designated survivor? First of all on your term designated survivor, you could easily say that might be some people's nightmare. But moving on from that, I will divide it between the short term the tactical issues and the longer term. You need a minister or someone senior outside of the physical space where the major event takes place. So that if anything happens and things serious happens, there is a minister who can direct operations and take charge of the situation. I would call that tactical and that's really the role that I play. So I outside the longer term what happens to the leadership, how it restructures, if restructuring is necessary and so on. There are constitutional processes and you know we will regroup and follow the law and do it according to how it needs to be dealt with. It's a heavy responsibility. But the teams of well trade, I work, you know, the tactical and the forces, they're ready, they're on the watch. I am briefed and Tashvud, if anything happens, they will move and I will get to a place where I will be able to make some decisions. All right, so national security today, of course we know is very different from when you first entered parliament. You know, we now worry about many different things, cyber attacks, online radicalization, foreign interference, scams, misinformation, AI, now also coming to the fore. When you look at Singapore's security landscape today, which threat worries you the most? We don't expect you to pick one, but not because it's the largest, but because it's the hardest to prepare for maybe. All those threats that you mentioned are substantive. One area that you haven't mentioned is the economic issues. The economic threats, we are a small country. I mentioned that we are the second largest economy in Asian. We are one of the world's largest highest GDP per capita. Our people are relatively prosperous compared with many other parts of the world, but all that is dependent on external trade. We can't succeed by trading within Singapore. We have to trade with the world. We have to make things for the world. We have to bring in goods, ship out goods and do business with the rest of the world. Professional services, manufacturing, name, whatever you name. And today that is under intense stress. And that is also an aspect of national security. I don't deal with it directly. The Prime Minister, DPM Garn, as you know, Minister for now trade and Dr. Tom Sealing and Minister for Industry, and the teams of officials, they deal with it. But entire cabinet is involved in thinking about it. That's a very significant threat to our well-being, our existence, our economic survival. Then you move to the other quote unquote darker sides. What can AI do in terms of the threats to your critical infrastructure in terms of people attacking your cyber infrastructure, intervening in the way your trains or airports or other facilities infrastructure functions. And scams, of course, a number of people, elderly people because Singaporeans are trusting and somebody calls up and says, I'm from the government, you know, transfer this amount of money or give me a bank account. They tend to do so. And it's very heartbreaking to see the people in their 70s, sometimes older, come and say, I've lost my life savings. The money is gone outside of Singapore. There's nothing much we can do. So the police have put in various processes working with the banks. We have had some success in preventing and stopping. But we still have some way to go and a lot of it depends on educating the public. And you know, last year I talked about the attack, UNC-3886, attacking our very critical infrastructure, foreigners getting into our systems to eavesdrop on us or to look at us and, you know, eventually to really undermine the integrity of our systems. And of course, ever present, you never forget that there is a small country you're always vulnerable to more conventional threats to, wars, threats, equation. So national security has always been and continues to have many facets. In Singapore, just to explain my role, in some countries, the national security coordinator or national security minister is an executive role in itself. In Singapore, it is not so. It's more coordination role. We have Minda, run by its own minister, homophase, run by its own minister, me, foreign affairs law. They all have their domain ministers and they are fully in charge. My role is more to see where the cracks are and where things may fall between the cracks and coordinate. Okay, with Nmplentium politics, your law degree, I want to know about yourself, are you able to switch off what do you do in your free time? Now this is a very loaded question minister because I have to take issue with one thing you've been saying quite repeatedly in recent years and I have to take you to task for this. You've been calling yourself a long suffering arsenal supporter. I knew that was going to come up today. I can't accept this minister. I can't accept this for two reasons. Number one, they're not long suffering anymore. And number two, your team put down my team. You relegated my team. You don't have to look so happy about it, but you did. Well, you could still say it's long suffering because they should have and could have done better even the last season, champions league. And at one stage it looked like when they were getting knocked out of the other two domestic events, it looked as if the season was not going to be so good after all, but thankfully the most important championship was won primarily. If along the way some have to go down too bad. West Ham United will be back with a small club, the little club that could. We'll be back. Let me stick with football for a moment. Yes, let me stick with the football. Was it a big thing for you as a kid growing up in Cumpongs of Singapore? Did you play? Did you watch the choir brothers? Was your big Malaysia cup fan? I'm not much of an athlete when it comes to football. I used to do a little bit of running, some record games, but in football I think probably two left feet as it were. You could play for West Ham. Now who's being harsh? So, but I did enjoy the eight days in Singapore was in the Malaysia cup and we did well, like other young boys, teenagers. We were all very excited. Yes, and I would say that football education, the pride in being Singaporean, and also at that time growing up, you didn't get life telecasts of the first division as it used to be called in England. but you got news and you followed and you picked your clubs. Yeah. So I'm more observer of follow-up and enthusiast, sometimes passionate, but not quite player. OK. So it seems like you do enjoy the football. And of course, you're also a husband, your father. And a lot of people forget you're an ordinary Singaporean behind all of your titles. So when you go home, what do you do? Pain as a picture. Are you able to switch off of work? And what do you do in your spare time or free time? I think the idea of free time is somewhat notional because you don't really get much of a free time, particularly when I was handling two ministries. I was minister of homophage and law for the longest period. And before that, minister of foreign affairs and law, I was law minister for 18 years, as it were, or 17 years. You don't really switch off because when you go home, you still have emails to clear. To answer your question bluntly, your work becomes most of your life. You have to be prepared for that. But you do need to have time off. You need to do things that can take your mind off and calm it down. So physically and mentally. And I try and keep myself sharp by being physically active and exercise. So exercise is an important part of the routine. It recharges me. It energizes me. Mentally, I try and be sharp. I mean, if you look at the job I do, whatever I do in ministry of homophage in terms of law, let's take the death penalty. It's a one very obvious example. You will have people very passionately good people, very passionately being opposed to it. And thinking that we are basically killers. On the other hand, you have a lot of people who understand the need for it and say, yes, we support it. Take drugs. You look at the Western societies that are blighted and ravished by drugs, the criminal gangs that are running through them and killing people, recruiting young people to become drug rannes. We have avoided all of that in Singapore. And given the kind of wealth there is in Singapore, we could easily have been overrun with drugs because so much drugs available in the region, so much money available in Singapore to pay for their drugs. I approach it this way. Is it the right thing to do in my view for the majority of people? You need clarity of mind for that. Then you look at the criticisms, just because a minority criticised doesn't mean you dismiss it because they could be right. You need to assess it. And if you are clear that you don't agree with them and in your judgement, you have to do this, then you need the strength of mind and character to push it through and to explain it to people and get more and more public buy. And I will say over the last five years, public support is actually grown for this, you know, the tough laws that we have. But in order to do all of that, you need inner calm. You need clarity of mind. And that comes for me from meditation, from my religion and spirituality and taking some time off for myself to have quiet time. Then you strengthen your mind and you know that whatever you're doing, you're doing not because, you know, it's in your own interest or for yourself or because you're muddled. You believe it, you do it. And if you get it wrong, the Prime Minister will wind somebody else. Yes, well, the people will wind somebody else. Well, Minister, you say you take time to meditate. Ian, one of our listeners, might disagree slightly. He thinks you take time to do heavy weight lifting. He's seen the videos. I've also seen the videos. You're being a bit modest when you say you don't do exercise. I did say that I recharge myself by doing physical exercises. Are you still doing the weight training? How often do you do it? I try to do it twice a week, but sometimes I succeed and sometimes I don't, but I keep in touch with weight lifting and high intensity interval training and other sorts of horrible things. Nobody thinks it's a very positive message to our aging population, right? To try and stay as positive as possible. That is part of the reason. Every year in my constituency, I call it the Chongpong Challenge. And now, I extended it to the Nisun Challenge. We invite people. I say, if I can do it, then you should be able to do it. And I encourage people of all ages, but particularly people in their 50s and 60s to take up and be active. You don't have to go and carry 100 kilos or 120 kilos or whatever. You are double your weight. If you walk, you start with walking. Then a bit of jogging, swimming. Just walk up the steps a little bit. Anything to start being active and then slowly improve. Couldn't agree more. We have some quick fire questions to finish, but before we get to those, something positive and upbeat, the 61st birthday is approaching. If you could ask every young Singaporean, we have lots of young listeners to protect one thing about this country for the next 61 years. What would it be? Our way of life and the way Singapore is governed, why is Singapore so different from so many countries whether in the first world or third world? It's the unity within the population. It is that we haven't said, this is politically correct and therefore we'll do it. We did what is correct rather than what is politically correct and the people supported it. And for our people, the constant striving to be, as good as they can be, because we make our living as a country, as a people by being better than others. We have to outcompete because we don't have resources. As long as our people recognize that or young people, the world is their oyster. They can go to the best universities in the world because of our education system. They get excellent opportunities in Singapore because of the economic framework and policies within Singapore. And they can find jobs whether in Singapore outside, but always think of what makes Singapore tick and work and preserve its certain basic fundamentals. - So you have shared so many words of wisdom today, already senior minister, but if you could leave one piece of advice for the next generation, whether they aspire to become lawyers or public servants or simply just good citizens, what would that piece of advice be? - I will be personal and I will say chase their dreams. It's Singapore allows you to chase your dreams mostly and there are some constraints. But as I said earlier, the world is your oyster. - Our listener agrees. Will says, "Yes, we will strive." Thank you minister. Okay, we finish all of our Singapore icon interviews. We did them with Dick Lee, Germett, seeing a whole list of names with quick fire, quick answer questions. First thing that pops into your head, here we go, best thing about being Singaporean. - Singapore itself, the feeling of comfort in ease that when you go around Singapore, the sense of safety and security, our values, it's like the best way of illustrating it is, when you've gone overseas and then you walk into an SQ plane, and you've heard it time and again. - Oh, we've felt it time and again. - Yeah. - And that's Singapore, you know, there's just a sense of being Singaporean, you don't have to worry about where you're walking, you don't have to worry about what somebody is going to do to you, comfort, safety, and of course the food and everything else about Singapore. - So the best thing about being Singaporean is being Singaporean, you know, I feel weird asking you this, the worst thing about being Singaporean. - Well, if there's one thing I could change, it's a combination of the heat and the humidity. - The heat by itself, you can handle the humidity by itself, but when you combine the two, and you try and sit outside and have a drink, whether it's late morning or in the evening, you very soon want to get into an icon. - Yeah. - Absolutely. Most contentious question of all, some political leaders refuse to answer this question, favorite local dish. - Oh. (laughing) - There's so many. One of the best things, one of the things about Singapore, I would say best things is the food, but you know, I've been asked this question many times, I usually settle on carrot cake, but look, I can mention to you, Chakwe Tiao, I can mention to you the fish head curry, I can mention to you Prata, I can mention to you prawn noodles. - Just one. - Now look, carrot cake. (laughing) - This one also contentious, favorite hawker center in Singapore. - Not contentious at all, Chong Pong. (laughing) - Oh, okay. - Or I can just do and see - Favorite place in Singapore. - Between my house and Chong Pong, Chong Pong, because I've spent nearly 40 years, more than in any single house that I've lived in. And you know, weekends, weekdays, people, it's not just a place, it's memories, it's the interactions, it's relationships you have built. So if it's for me to choose, I will say, if I can have two choices, I will say home in Chong Pong, but otherwise Chong Pong, but you know, many things about Singapore, the botanics, the parks, the walks, you can do the cycling tracks, Changi Beach, many good things. - You will let you have Chong Pong in home, okay. Favorite Singapore icon? You can say yourself, I always say that's it. - No, no, no, no, no, I'm honest, I will say, Lee Kuan Yew, but with this broader perspective, I think there is only one choice, Lee Kuan Yew. The first generation leaders, he and his team, took this country at $500 GDP per capita and converted it into a world class metropolis, providing housing, healthcare, first class education, see you next time. safety, security, your lives and my lives have been directly impacted by his policies and vision. No, I don't think there are that many men in the history of the world who have while being the top leader, being able to impact on so many lives, almost every single Singaporean life is impacted. Now, I said, Mr Lee, but don't forget the first generation leaders. In particular, it's trusted Lieutenant Dr Goking-Sui, who was responsible for so many things in Singapore. We are safe and secure and we are economically successful because we have a strong defence. Dr Gok was responsible for that, the SAF. Dr Gok was responsible for us becoming a financial center. Dr Gok was responsible for us developing our manufacturing base, so many many many things. And then you had others who imprinted our image on the world stage. So that generation, Mr Lee, with Dr Gok, is a close second. But you also played an integral part of that process. So senior me, come on the shoulders of giants. Well, I'm going to call it Singapore icon, Kei Shamu-Bun. Thank you so much for joining us today on Let's Talk Singapore. Thank you. For more conversations and podcasts, visit MoneyFM893.SG.