Simplifying Banking Operations: A Process Mining Approach with Andrea Lieb, Unicredit

This is the "Mining Your Business" podcast, a show all about process mining data science and advanced business analytics. Joining me, as always, is the one and only Jakob, are you done? I'm doing fantastic, Patrick. So I think it's safe to say that almost everyone has interacted with a bank to some degree, whether it's signing up for a new bank, taking out a loan, or just day-to-day cash withdrawals. Joining us today is Andrea Lieben, head of Simplification Oversight at Hoopofinespunk, and we are going to find out what simplification entails, what process mining can achieve in banking, and how customers of a bank are profiting directly from process mining. Let's get into it. Hello, everyone. You probably already know this, but I am a big personal finance fan. Oh, what, really? Yeah, Patrick, you might have already heard about that. Actually, in today's episode, I kind of feel like closing the loop between the two worlds I'm very passionate about, and that is the world of finance and the world of process mining, because today's guest is a head of Simplification Oversight at Hoopofinespunk, and her name is Andrea Lieben. Andrea, welcome to our show. Thank you very much, welcome, very happy to be here. Yeah, so are we, as I was mentioning a few times before on the show, the throughput times for getting the guests to our podcast is getting somewhat longer, and you are no exception here, so it's interesting. And I'm especially very grateful that you finally made it, and we can, yeah, for me personally, close this gap between process mining and finance. So once again, thank you for coming. And the first question I have is actually towards your job description. We've had a lot of people here with a lot of different job positions and descriptions, and to be honest, the head of Simplification Oversight is the first one. I've heard something like that, and I actually love it. Could you tell us in the audience what it actually means? And maybe even a follow-up question, how do you explain it to your friends? Oh, that's tricky. Sure, maybe let me give some background where this rule comes from and where it developed to. So when I joined this area of process framework in Hyperfinespunk already back in 2018, the activities in this team were more related to the process documentation. So given the regulatory needs in banking, it was already established since years that processes are modeled, are documented, that you have a process architecture and process roles. And this was the situation when I joined this team. So a lot coming from these regulatory driven needs, documentary administrative. And while I was in the first years with the teams more focusing on kind of reducing all these rules and conventions, what needs to be documented, we started quite soon already in 19 to develop this content more to a content-wise process framework. So really also not just documenting it, but looking at the content, understanding the processes, analyzing them, up to optimizing them. And it was already in 2019 when we started the first pilots with process mining and then two, three years later, we also focused on content-wise process optimization. So this was this development from this very documentary process framework, up to also content-wise process analytics and optimization. And it was then now back at the beginning of '22, when we saw that from one side, I mean, there are so many components also around processes that need to be considered or that belong to processes, how you want to see it. That it be documents, controls, organizational topics, which brought us to the kind of rebranding, to name it any longer process, excellence or process governance, but to come to simplification, which is a better umbrella where you can address all these different dimensions around processes that define the process setting of the bank. And since our bank is quite a established and old bank, of course, in the past complexity role. So we had many processes, many different, also product types and so on. So this was the decision to say, let's name it simplification, since this is one of our key goals to get as simple as possible, as standardized as possible. And so this was the kind of rebranding now already one and a half years ago, where still process governance, process analytics and optimization all belongs to. But with a more, let's say, flexible bandage. So you've, you've said that you're now in this simplification program, and I can also see judging by your LinkedIn that you've been at hyperfiance, but for quite some time. Can you tell me a little bit about how one gets into that role of simplification, right? Where did you start and how did you get where you are now? So it was always existing, this process framework, yeah, in a kind of a ORGA area. You can call it like that. It was established in COO Chief Operations Officer, where this process documentation was existing, I think, since something like 2005, yeah, since really the regulatory needs required this quite early. And in the financial sector, of course, there's also this huge development of the market of being quicker, to adopt quicker, to customer needs and so on. And this was, I would say, when until the last five, six, seven years, the need to be more agile, to be simpler, just got more dominant. And this is when exactly this new mandate and focus on simplification on a child grew in the bank. And when this need and mandate and position was created, yeah. I mean, my personal development was, I started in the bank and internal audit, then I moved to the investment banking business that's here, some projects, change management, and then changed into the process area. So always working in a kind of a generic mode. And hence now this simplification topic with a bank-wide mandate is really interesting since we are working with all of the areas. You're working on the mindset change on methodological topics on single cases, which are interesting to trigger. So this is quite a wide range, which I really enjoy. Mandra, you already said that you work in all the areas. So what I assume that if you are in a, you know, in position of simplification processes, you get your hands on standard finance processes, but also processes such as such are very specific to banking, let's say, some claims process or creating of new accounts or something like that. How do you, you know, go into these departments and distinguish yourself in a way that what are your responsibilities? And like, how do you even tell them that you can help them if you have such a big overhead over everything, basically, over all these different processes? Because this segregation of duties can be very tricky, I assume. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I mean, what helps is maybe our our process owners, which are distributed across the whole institute. So we are really also working across a process organization. So a process like account opening has his, has its process owner who is sitting basically in the business side. And with those, we are working very closely. And I think this is a very good setting we can leverage on since they have the responsibility to know their process to work with them. And since the last years, even more also to analyze them with KPIs and up to optimize them. So their targets, their needs are matching with the tools and with our mandate to support them. And if we would not work in such a process organization with also dedicated colleagues who have the task to make the processes better, it would be of course far more difficult than I would really miss these counterparts. But this is a good team where we can cooperate. And also, yeah, also in the last years, really, the focus and the importance of processes grew, where I would say like five, six years ago, it was maybe more like a administrative burden. colleagues now understand that it's really a success factor also of their business activities. Yeah, I mean, I can just do more volume with my process of smooth and stable. And this came together during the last years. So this makes us also easier to come to them and say, hey, look, we are helping you in on exactly your business goals while focusing on the process, yeah. So, I mean, we've had people on the show before and they kind of defined what process excellence is and all these things. Now, can you define for us what the what you would consider a process being simplified, right? You spoke that, you know, it's a little bit of a complexity has grown over the years. And how do you personally or like the organization itself define, okay, this went from a complex process to now it is simplified or we achieved our goal of simplifying this process. Maybe two dimensions of my answer to that. From one side, we are really tracking for all our processes, yacht documentary, KPIs that tell us how many detail processes, how many steps, how many interfaces, how many different application tools has a process. So this gives us a kind of objective, comparable figure setting where I can say, look, if an end to end process like account opening has more than 200 detail processes, then it looks quite complicated. Yeah. So this is based just on the figures, how we define the processes, but more a qualitative answer is it should be as standardized as possible. So not having kind of different variances per customer segments or channels and so on. So really having this one one chain, which has maybe the front end and the end, the front end is different depending from which channel the item comes into the process. But then we have really this one stable chain and of course in the current times also the automatization rate is a important topic that we can really reduce manual steps, but that you have workflow which also kind of guides the process, which per definition defines standardization and this is key. I think in particular for the business processes. You mentioned that you were a lot of your colleagues and even yourself, you started in this regulatory background with a lot of documentation, processes and so on. And I really like to hear that because what I've been experiencing and working on a lot of different process planning initiatives, I sometimes like this a little bit that there is not really a way on how the process should look like and we're rather looking right away and how it looks like. Can you tell us like how maybe maybe let's reframe the question. How does it look to document a process? Is this just in paper somewhere lying around in the company or do you also use some other tools such as a famous areas where it's doing like a business process maps and how do you then take it to this next level of comparing as how does it look like and how it should look like? No, it's exactly Aris. The tool is where we are working with and it looks like that exactly the process tree. So we have around 250 and 10 processes defined. This is established already since years and for each of these processes a process owner is defined also in a certain level of hierarchy in the bank and with him we are defining the sub levels. So level 4 which is just the high level value chain and level 5 which are really detailed processes which contain the steps and documents used and so on. And I have a team of process governance which also covers process designer and they are working with the process owners to model and map the processes in Aris. So this is the kind of operating model we are following and this means we are having there always I would say a complete and up-to-date process content which is of course a high effort to maintain but it's worth it since it's a very very important database in Aris. I mean you know that we are not painting them but we are modeling them. So you see all the correlations, all the object information we have attributes we also kind of customized the needs we have there. So really a very important database from where we also serve the needs of the bank of our operating instruction framework. So this process content is exactly the official way how we instruct the colleagues to work in their daily work but also for example when it comes to risk or control assessment. So this is all done based on this Aris process content which is I think also important that you have these different use cases of this content also to legitimate the effort behind. Not just for my team but also I mean we have many process owners which are at least knocked and contacted once per year just to check if everything is still up-to-date or of course with many projects ongoing, many changes, the colleagues are kind of involved in this project in order to on-the-fly change the processes. I can imagine that it would be quite a big focus then to also use tools like process mining to then compare that to the mapping or at least the process mapping that you have in Aris specifically for regulatory requirements. So you mean comparing the process models and the process mining content. I would say it's still a topic we are checking but honestly my experience so far is that this comparison is not so helpful. I can tell you why. In Aris we have also a different dimension very model. I mean more generic I would say so you're saying okay customer risk request comes in it's analyzed and then the next steps whereas in process mining we are looking deeper you're looking maybe sometimes on the execution of the different masks in the workflow tool so we have really a different level of detail where we look at which makes a direct comparison difficult. So we did it maybe in single items but we do not use it as a systematic tool or maybe we have not yet come to the point where we really can compare it one to one yeah. Now Andrea if you have modeling shouldn't already all the processes from pretty well because they are modeled in a way how they can be executed and they apparently don't if you also need then you know this other layer of process mining and comparing how it should be done and how it's actually done. Yeah it's always the difference between the defined processes and the real execution which is I mean which is just natural since you have these steps but of course colleagues can go back and forth or they use the process in a different way. I mean yes it sounds obvious what you are saying but I think for process experts with all sometimes the painful experience they have it's also clear that there is a quite difference between these two areas. Yeah you also mentioned that a big success factor is the overall awareness of this process mindfulness I would probably even call it yeah and we've had guests before who were telling us that they had to do like at least a demo a day maybe not they were more focused on process mining but I guess in your case it would be a little wider than just process mining but still you have to go around and be basically this preacher who keeps telling this is what we do and this is why we do it and that's why it's important is that also the case for you. No absolutely I mean we have this good situation that we can establish on our on our process governance and existing process roles for years but it stays continuous activity also of my team to bring this on the agenda and also to always show this impact and the positivness of processes. We are doing this via different activities so from one side we are following a kind of relationship manager model of my process designer with the different process owners in the bank so everybody is in contact constantly with the same process owners and so they understand what is going on they understand their concerns and so on so this creates a relationship which makes it easier to work together on the other hand we are doing like once a quarter process owner community events where some show best practice examples where we discuss new ideas and so on we also always try to make it nice maybe with some some drinks and so on so really to have also this community idea and on the other side so this is more really where we try to have this positive mindset and culture and I mean on the other side process owners recognize that their role is important since they are contacted by us but also by different other frameworks in the bank from the risk and control area to check their processes so they also see okay it's important role. Also nowadays they they have KPIs so based also on the others content we compare all the end to end processes exactly in these also complexity figures I mentioned earlier so it's also sometimes a little bit a competition where they also want to be good so I would say we are approaching them with different angles but mostly really in in supporting and enabling them and showing how important their role is and also in giving them some spotlight for example when we create a internet story or something where we also show that they're doing their process management activities very well right that sounds great actually so when you when your department how does that actually function like do you have a a target or a next target that you look to for simplification or how is that decision made like who is the target for a simplification is it that everyone is done all at once like all the processes or is it that you go step by step project by project or how does that look I have a bank wide targets for the simplification journey which is for example reduction simplification of processes so this is leveraging on on the others content and simplification of controls since this is also consequence of institute being very risk focused that of course many controls were set up but now also with automatization with risk oriented look at all the controls in one process there is potential also to to simplify that so here we have targets for let's say the whole number of processes and controls to be simplified and reduced and on the other side where we do our analytics and optimization content we have for those processes that are covered with process mining of course targets like reducing the process time or increasing adoption rate and so on and also we are having or we are doing kind of lean process optimization activities but also we are counting per year how many cases we have so how many different processes we are touching and how many person days potential we create with this optimization effort so it's really to free up resources which colleagues do for a administrative thing and so on and the target is that with this optimization this potential can can be freed up in order that colleagues for example in the sales area can invest it in their direct customer relationship so here we are working on these different angles I would say I like it I like the combination of focusing on the some of the benchmarks so let's say goals that you're trying to achieve as a company or maybe even as a department for me it always proves valuable to motivate that the people I worked with to also set these goals because then it helps with the overall approach and then focus on value so really like that a mandra when you introduced you mentioned process mining sometime in 2019 what it is change for this overall business process management in your company I mean what changed at the very beginning was that when we did not have not even started the analytical part but for example at really the first demos and PVs we just showed the process explorer so the visual part and showed it either to process a product owner or even to our board member I mean this was really nice since the colleagues were really like wow that's my process yeah and it was really this change coming from a very maybe boring administrative process description from wow that's how it looks like and it looks very dynamic and this was where it was really a nice moment at the very beginning where just this visual effect in my few broad colleagues closer to their process life and they said wow that's how it feels and now I can show it and other can can understand my pain and so on and this was a nice nice effect but in general of course just understanding of the process yeah how it goes and also that you have now objective data that you can discuss instead of always or not always of instead of often subjective discussions between different stakeholders along the process so it brought out a little bit also the maybe emotional part and we could focus really on objective data and how the process really goes so I think this was a good effect also of process mining yeah we we like to say that process mining made this business process management sexy again and actually younger generation now also wanting to do this and work as a process mining architect or analyzed then it's exciting because then you're combining these worlds of you know how it should look like and now how it versus how it looks like and you are trying to make the best out of both technologies so you then introduce process mining and did you also being a bank start with this what I call a big four like accounts payable purchase to pay accounts receivable or to cash or did you jump into some specific banking use case right away yeah as our focus was always and still is our key banking product and processes so this is very started and we still very still focus on with our analysis also given the fact that exactly these big four processes you mentioned I mean of course they are also important but different to producing industries our provider business is not the core thing yeah and also and so the focus was since the beginning of course the banking product and processes in particular since these are of course directly linked with positive customer experience so if I get a account opened as quick as possible the customer is happy and we have a good time to market so this was in particular for the for the targets of process mining the main areas to focus on yeah can you tell us a little bit about what some of these processes look like because I mean I some of our listeners including myself aren't that familiar with the with banking processes and all the things that go on in it could give us a little bit of light about the types of things you're looking at sure so looking for example as at a very important area consumer finance consumer lending I mean in a bank you have basically the two big-proch products which have some sub-product types but let's keep it easy consumer finance and mortgage so these processes look like that the loan request comes in here we are also talking about different channels nowadays branch broker online app etc so here you have maybe already some some variances and some different tools and data points you need to collect also for the process mining analysis the information comes in maybe some information needs to be completed in exchange between the bank and the customer until it runs into the credit decision maybe also around that some further checks are needed with positive approval the credit is approved and here a mortgage for example has of course then a payment period taking longer whereas for consumer finance the need is or the target is to have also the payment quite quickly so here for example not just the time to yes but also the time to cash is an important KPI which really finishes basically also the customer customer experience for the moment yeah that he can have quickly the money to buy to be a car whatever and this is for example one of our key processes around customer loans so is it looking at specific bottlenecks in that process or for example we're chasing this document in order to go to the next step to finally complete the application or what is it that you're really looking at here from one side you have maybe three key stakeholders along the process so you have the sales colleagues who are in contact with the customer you have the risk colleagues with the credit approval competencies and you have often also back office areas who do the processing so one important part is the smooth cooperation between these different parties sitting in different units sitting sometimes in different locations to see is there hopefully not too much back and forth too much ping pong is the information the data arriving at the right place at the right time so in particular loops in ping pong between these different areas is an important topic but also also of course the time in general yeah I mean do we see that the item waits at a certain point too long why cannot be processed in particular for consumer finance on a mortgage but consumer finance they also have quite clear criteria so here's really the expectation that it goes through quite smoothly so I would say time and also cooperation between the process users is here a key component yeah where and there or if I imagine banking I can see that in every country it's going to work somewhat different because there's going to be different rules different governance and everything you also notice when analyzing is that there were actually huge differences between countries for various reasons I mean we are still focusing people for Einstein being the German subsidiary of unique credit on the German market so we are working here quite in the in the same in the same regulatory context we see of course more differences for example when it comes also to the different channels yeah that you really see okay depending on from where item comes in maybe the data is in a better quality or not or the cooperation with the front and if it's different so this is more a difference we see not so much in the regulatory setting when you have some findings and I'm going to get to those in in a little bit who is then the person who you are trying to let's say educate or how do you try to improve the process because I can imagine that some of these findings especially there's going to be a lot of people involved because it's still banking process and if you go to a branch and you're talking to someone who gives you the loan then it's mostly people when if we are talking about accounts payables or purchase to pay a lot of these things are done by machines so are you then going and discussing these insights with you know you probably the process owners and then then like try to educate the people on the branches or how does then the change management actually look like for such a process such as customer loan or yes I mean we are using here a setting that was established also as a lessons learned since exactly our experience showed you need a kind of owner on the business side to be responsible for this observation and to follow up on that since our operating model works in a way that my team is the Thelonis Competence Centre but the analysis are in the hands and in the ownership of business colleagues who of course also know their process is best so we established I think one and a half years ago a setting that before we start any kind of analysis we ask for a clearly assigned so-called Thelonis business owner so this is a colleague sitting in the area of the process product hub of nominated by the process owner and who has really the role to be our entry point into the business area to to set up the analysis to define targets KPIs that should be reached with this analysis but also to follow up on observations and they should have exactly the list on which they prioritize or which they follow up maybe a further deep dive needs to be done but also to bring it for example to a decision of decision makers when IT budget or further analysis needs to be done or also of course when a decision is that this observation maybe for the moment is not relevant enough to be followed up that's all okay we just require here really a transparent process in order that nothing gets lost yeah and we try from our hands to support it with the kind of documentation where we have a common few in a common list what are the single observations per analysis but also when my team sees something they also can trigger that sometimes we are also doing the support since sometimes for colleagues it's still also difficult to to find the kind of constellations that look weird so even my Thelonis colleagues here have quite a good experience and also sometimes we also trigger for example manager meeting when we think now maybe too many decisions are coming together so also we support the colleagues in organizing that preparing that in order that really on the flight these observations are somehow handled yeah now with all of these moving parts is it difficult to then drive that change in whatever processes that is looking at is the adoption or reception of these changes good or is that a point of contention I mean it's it's it's certainly difficult yeah since as you know I mean just the process mining outcome does not yet help or approve the process so often further checks are needed or even budget or even smaller or big IT project so this is then often a separate discussion but at least you have with the process mining outcome the objective information where colleagues hopefully can better decide is it worth it what is the effect and so on also with this lean optimization team which is working next to the Thelonis team we have also centrally a tool where we can also offer help yeah so when they see you are there is some complete something in the in the process which we do not understand but really also maybe talk with the process users or really following it in the real time would be necessary then I have also just to support them at least yeah I recently visited a few of these Thelonis world tours and they were presenting some new features of the tool I think it's still very early to even use but I do see it as a as a as a future and it's basically integrating some something similar to chat GPT into the tool so you basically query or just ask about some process insights and it spits you back some numbers for some recommendations and that also brings me to another area of process mining which we discussed in the podcast before with Marlon Dumas and Marcelo Arosa which is prescriptive process mining essentially giving recommendations on what you should do next based on how the process was executed many many times before and do you also see that maybe in a few months or even here's the users could actually have some kind of an interface where they would just ask they would be unsure about what they should do should I give alone should I not give the loan and instead of looking into some statistics they would actually look into how the process is executed from from start to the end absolutely I mean we saw this also in a short demonstration when just last week Silona's colleagues and Basti Nomi Naha were at Hippofa Inn Spang at our place and it's I mean it's really amazing and then I think in particular in our operating model where we want to have I mean normal business colleagues to understand their process and to work with the process I think any tool and bridge that helps them easily to connect with the process ask questions have a analysis done in the background that reduces the hurdle to get connected they have with with the process I think this is really really important if it will be months I don't I don't know let's see how quickly this will come but I mean also in that direction what I think will help us is also a functionality like this business miner where also just the surface of the analysis is maybe more natural to them and we're also we can communicate in exchange across or with the observations directly in the analysis also think like this I think is already a step towards a more intuitive usage of the analysis even more of course when such communicative and AI driven functionalities belong here also to the tool yeah I think we have looked to look forward to yeah yeah a lot of things coming down the pipeline now looking at these these features and stuff is there something that you're personally really wanting to to implement specifically in Hippofa Inn Spang? Since I really think in particular that I have the possibility to comment and chat basically in the analysis with the business colleagues this helps a lot in also following up of the observation since up to now we were forced to have a kind of a separate list separate tool where we track these observations so this was always a wish of us that this comes together in the tool itself but also of course to combine the process mining analysis with the direct execution is very interesting for us so so far we were focusing on more exposed analysis, exposed meaning that for example we have a data update on our weekly frequencies so not so much delayed but more analysis per se but now when we also try to have more real-time data to leverage on execution activities triggering alerts activities out of the tool this is of course very important for us in bridging the analysis with the automation itself and this would be it will be very interesting and we hope to have here the first call lives still in 23 nice so not just looking retrospective at what was but then as you focusing on the proactive we can still do something about these okay yeah which of course requires also the data pre-condition for that which is always the tricky thing but since we are here setting up the right tools and data model at the moment we then hope to be ready to also leverage on that. If I was a client or customer of of your bank of hypophilicin bank where there are already some tangible changes that I would probably notice that where as a result of doing process mining and these process improvements and we don't need to go into numbers obviously I'm not just like interested maybe you noticed that this walk-through through the page was one step too long because there was like a pick or a bad retention or something and I'm wonder how would I experience it as a customer then. Yeah maybe to take one example is certainly that we realized that really the information input and the data input was key root cause for ping pong for the need of completion of data and so on. So with this information also with the granularity in the analysis that we knew exactly which information and which mask in many of the cases seem to be wrong or missing so the colleagues changed here the data input in a more automated way so colleagues for example do not need to hand in now information any longer even in paper but they get the input mask at the very beginning in order to ensure that certain data which always or often was missing or was wrong and needed to be completed and then even the customer needed to be contacted again that this is now complete and right since the beginning so data input now automated instead of manual is one example which also proved to speed up the process afterwards. I love it and I hope that you are also sure this view of mine when it's fascinating when you do some relatively small change in the process and it has such an amplified outcome on so many different things I think it's amazing. Yeah and of course hopefully then the customer experience is also nicer the colleagues can just insert something in the mask instead of filling and sending and bringing in the branch of course. Yeah and we know how bureaucracy can be annoying for any customer without regard of what company they're dealing with. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to see this one at one point in governments and in state sector. Now you're dreaming. Now I'm dreaming. Let's see a mannequin dream. Now I have one more question before a rep up and that would actually be regarding that the banking as a sector is this practice that you're doing with your company let's say a standard within other banking banks as well across the globe because we recently talked to a few people from oil and gas industry and they tend to have these round tables and discussing quite openly which was pretty amazing for me how they are maybe succeeding but also failing in execution of their processes and how they are adopting this business process management to the best of their capabilities. Is this maybe also a trend that you're noticing in banking that the banks actually do want to improve and are starting to maybe opening up to others as well in meaning let's see what we can do together or how you are doing things and creating this mastermind group should you call it where the sole focus is let's get better yes I see that I mean also just among the lonest customers from the financial sector I think there's a good connection we have two three wherever are also in kind of constant bilateral contact if there is something to exchange but also we are following round tables so yes I think there is openness growing since of course these are often the same challenges yeah at the same time I see that also our model where we really manage to combine the different BPM disciplines let me phrase it like that so really the governance the modeling the optimization the analytics the umbrella in checking also cultural activities and so on so that this is still not so much followed so maybe he's adding more distributed among the company but I think that this model at least this is our experience really proves the synergies among the disciplines yeah if I hear fear issue I can work with the optimization or with the KPIs I also get from from teloness I'm integrating them into the simplification program target so they become directly also official target for the colleagues to simplify the processes so this helps me also in in steer steer the activities and on this we are also happily sharing with the other institutions andra all I can say is that this was really really insightful episode also love to hear the the implications it has for actual customers who don't even know that there's anything like process mining but it is getting improved over time for their battery experience so andra thank you very very much for coming here and sharing your your wisdom and knowledge with us thank you very much I really enjoyed the conversation you know let's hope we can make it in another time again and see how you're doing especially after integrating these bridges for users and everything that's going to be a fun time still an exciting year ahead yeah yes indeed for you dear listeners I hope we brought another nuggets of wisdom as well and that you enjoyed our show if you like us leave us a rating on google podcasts or Spotify and we always like if you share the the podcast with your colleagues or friends who might get some valuable insights from the show as well if you have any questions just reach us reach us out on our email mining our business podcast edgmail.com and uh yeah we will talk to you in two weeks of time andra Patrick thank you very much and talk to you later bye bye