Simon Sinek: What is Leadership, How to Be a Great Leader & Game Theory.
21m 51s
The speaker argues that true leadership begins with empathy and perspective, not power or status. While organizations often demand performance and punish failure, leaders must instead see employees as human beings with personal struggles that affect work. Empathy requires leaders to ask, “Are you okay?” rather than “Are your numbers up?” This shift fosters trust and psychological safety. The speaker contrasts finite games—where companies compete to win and lose—against infinite games, where the goal is long-term survival and continuous growth. Companies like Apple and Southwest thrive not by outperforming rivals, but by focusing on internal progress and purpose. The speaker highlights that most leaders are trapped in short-term competition, ignoring the deeper game of enduring value. True leadership, therefore, means creating environments where people feel seen, supported, and safe to grow. Leaders must move beyond winning to nurturing, fostering resilience, and playing long-term games. This change in mindset—rooted in empathy and infinite perspective—transforms both individual performance and organizational sustainability.
So I'm embarrassed that I have a career. I talk about things like trust and
cooperation and there should be no demand for my work. But the fact of the
matter is there is demand for my work which means that there's an opportunity.
It means that trust and cooperation are not yet standard in our
organizations and yet they should be and we know that which is why we're looking
for ways to bring those things to our organizations. So I thought I would do
something a little different today. You know when you're speaking to tens of
thousands of people and you have the opportunity to share a message of course
most rational people would say let's go with something I've talked about lots
of times and I'm really good at but I'm not normal so I'm going to do
something completely new and I hope this works out. There are two things that I
think that great leaders need to have. Empathy and perspective and I think these
things are very often forgotten. Leaders are so often so concerned about their
status of their position in an organization. They actually forget their real
job and the real job of a leader is not about being in charge it's about taking
care of those in our charge and I don't think people realize this and I don't
think people train for this. When we're junior our only responsibility is to be
good at our jobs that's all we really have to do and some people actually go
get advanced educations so that they can be really good at their jobs
accountants or whatever right and you show up and you work hard and the company
will give us tons and tons of training how to do our jobs and I'll show us how to
use the software they'll send us away for a few days to get trained in whatever
it is that we're doing for the company and then they expect us to go be good at
our jobs and that's what we do we work very hard and if you're good at your job
they'll promote you and at some point you'll get promoted to position where
we're now responsible for the people who do the job we used to do but nobody
shows us how to do that and that's why we get managers and not leaders because
the reason our managers are micromanaging us is because they actually do not
how to do do the job better than us that's what got them promoted really what we
have to do is go through a transition some people make it quickly some people
make it slowly and unfortunately some people will never make that
transition at all which is we have to go this through this transition of being
responsible for the job and then turning it to somebody who's now responsible
for the people who are responsible for the job and as I said before one of the
great things that is lacking in most of our companies is that they are not
teaching us how to lead and leadership is a skill like any other is a
practicable learnable skill and it is something that you work on it's like a
muscle if you practice it all the days you will get good at it and you will
become a strong leader if you stop practicing you will become a weak leader
like parenting everyone has the capacity to be a parent doesn't mean everybody
wants to be a parent and doesn't mean everybody should be a parent leadership
is the same we all have the capacity to be a leader doesn't mean everybody
should be a leader and it doesn't mean everybody wants to be a leader and the
reason is because it comes at great personal sacrifice remember you're not
in charge you're responsible for those in your charge that means things like
when everything goes right you have to give away all the credit and when
everything goes wrong you have to take all the responsibility that sucks right it's
things like staying late to show somebody what to do it's things like when something
does actually break when something goes wrong instead of yelling and screaming
and taking over you say try again when the overwhelming pressures are not
on them the overwhelming pressures are on us at the end of the day great
leaders are not responsible for the job they're responsible for the people who
responsible for the job they're not even responsible for the results I love
talking to CEOs and say what's your priority and they put their hands on their
Hipsel Proud and say my priority is my customer I'm like really you even talk
to a customer in 15 years there's no CEO in the planet responsible for the
customer they're just not they're responsible for the people who responsible for
the people who responsible for the customer I'll tell you a true story a few
months ago I stayed at the four seasons in Las Vegas it is a wonderful
hotel and the reason it's a wonderful hotel is not because of the fancy beds
any hotel can go and buy a fancy bed the reason it's a wonderful hotel is
because of the people who work there if you walk past somebody at the four
seasons and this and they say hello to you you get the feeling that they
actually wanted to say hello to you it's not that somebody told them that you
have to say hello to all the customers say hello to all the guests right you
actually feel that they care now in their lobby they have a coffee stand and I
one afternoon I went to buy a cup of coffee and there was a barista by the name
of Noah who was serving me Noah was fantastic he was friendly and fun and he
was engaging with me and I had so much fun buying a cup of coffee I actually
think I gave a hundred percent tip right he was wonderful so as is my nature I
ask Noah do you like your job and without skipping a beat Noah says I love my
job and so I followed up I said what is it that the four seasons is doing that
would make you say to me I love my job without skipping a beat Noah said
throughout the day managers will walk past me and ask me how I'm doing if
there's anything that I need to do my job better he said not just my manager any
manager and then he said something magical he says I also work at Caesars
Palace and Caesars Palace the managers are trying to make sure we're doing
everything right they catch us when we do things wrong he says when I go to work
there I like to keep my head under the radar and just get through the day so I
can get my paycheck he says here at the four seasons I feel I can be myself
same person entirely a different experience from the from the customer who will
engage with Noah so we in leadership are always criticizing the people we're
always saying we got to get the right people on the bus I've got to fill my
wrong my team I got to get the right people but the reality is it's not the
people it's the leadership if we create the right environment we will get
people like Noah at the four seasons if we create the wrong environment we will
get people like Noah at Caesars Palace it's not the people and yet we're so
quick to hire and fire you can't hire and fire your children if there's if
your kids are struggling we don't say you got to see it school you're up for
adoption so why is it that when somebody has performance problems at work why
is it that our instinct is to say you're out we do not practice empathy what is
empathy look like here's the lack of empathy this is normal in our business
world you walk into someone's office someone walks into our office and says your
numbers have been down for the third quarter in a row you have to pick up your
numbers otherwise I can't guarantee what the future will look like how inspired
you think that person is to come to work the next day here's what empathy looks
like you walk into someone's office someone walks into your office and says your
numbers are down for the third quarter in a row are you okay I'm worried about
you what's going on we all have performance issues maybe someone's kid is sick
maybe they having problems in their marriage maybe one of their parents is
dying we don't know what's going on in their lives and of course it will
affect performance at work empathy is being concerned about the human being not
just their output we have for some reason our work world has changed in the
past 20 and 30 years we are suffering the side effects of business theories
left over from the 80s and 90s and they are bad for people and they are bad
for business let me give you an example the concept of shareholders supremacy was
a theory proposed in the late 1970s it was popularized in the 80s and 90s it is
now standard form today you talk to any public company and you ask them their
priority and they say maximize shareholder value really that's like a coach
prioritizing the needs of the fans over the needs of the players how you're
going to build a winning team with that model but that's normal today we don't
even perceive it as broken or damaged or wrong or outdated remember the 80s
and 90s were boom years with relative peace and a kinder gentler cold war
nobody was practicing hiding under their desks in school anymore we are no
longer in those times these are no longer boom years these are no longer
peaceful times and those models cannot work today here's another one
mass layoffs using someone's livelihood to balance the books right it's so
normal in America today that we don't even understand how broken and how
damaging it is not only to human beings but to business you know companies
talk about how they want to build trust and cooperation and they announce
a round of layoffs you know the quickest way to destroy trust and
destroy cooperation in a business literally in one day lay people off and
everyone gets scared right can you imagine sending someone home to say honey I
can no longer provide for our family because the company missed its arbitrary
projections this year and forget about the people who lost their job
Think about the people who kept their jobs because every single decision a company makes is a piece of communication and the company
The company has just communicated to everybody else. This is not a meritocracy
We don't care how hard you work or how long you've worked here if we miss our numbers and you happen to fall on the wrong side of the
Spreadsheet. I'm sorry. We cannot guarantee employment. In other words, we come to work every day afraid
And we're asking our youngest generation to work in environments where how would any of us ever stand up and admit I made a mistake
We're constantly being told you have to be vulnerable. Leaders are vulnerable. What does that even mean? It doesn't mean you walk around crying. I'm vulnerable
Right? No, what vulnerability means is you create an environment in which someone feels safe enough to raise their hand and said
I don't know what I'm doing. You've given me a job and I haven't been trained to do it. I need help. I made a mistake. I screwed something up
I'm scared. I'm worried. All of these things no one would ever admit inside a company because it puts a target on your head in case there's another round
And so we keep it to ourselves. And how can a company ever do well if nobody's ever willing to admit they made a mistake that's scared or they don't know what they're doing?
And so we've literally created cultures in which every single day everybody comes to work and lies hides and fakes.
And we're asking our youngest generation to work and succeed and find themselves and build their confidence and overcome their addiction to technology and build strong relationships at work.
To do this and easily environments we've created. We keep saying to them, you're the future leaders. We're the leaders now.
We're in control. What are we doing? This is what empathy means. It means if there's an entire generation struggling, maybe it's not them.
It's like you know the only thing that the common factor in all my failed relationships, me. Same thing. Oh, we just can't get the right performance out of our people.
Maybe it's you. It's not a generation. It's not them. They're not difficult or hard to understand.
They're human beings like the rest of us trying to find their way, trying to work in a place where they feel that someone cares about them as a human being.
By the way, that's what we all want. In other words, it's not even generational. It's all of us. This is the practice of empathy that we're struggling to communicate to someone.
If it's struggling to help someone be at their natural best, I'm tired of people saying to me, how do I get the best out of my people? Really? That's what you want. They're like a towel. You just ring them. How can I get the most out of them?
No. How do I help my people be at their natural best? We're not asking these questions. We are not practicing empathy. We have to start by practicing empathy and relate to what they may be going through.
And it will profoundly change the decisions we make. It will profoundly change the way we see the world.
Someone's driving to work. You're driving to work. And someone wants to cut into your lane. What do you do? Do you pull your car up? Would you let them in?
Most of us pull our cars up and go like this. You wait your turn. Now let's practice empathy. I don't know. Maybe they've been out of work for six months.
Maybe they had trouble getting the kids out to school this morning and now they're running late for a really important interview. And they just have to get to this interview and they're going to cut into our lane. Or maybe they're just a bastard. I don't know.
But that's the point. We don't know. We don't know. And the practice of empathy will say, "I'll let them in and I'll arrive to work one car length later." Right? We don't always have to be right.
We don't always have to be in charge. We don't always have to be the one who succeeds. It's not about winning or losing. And that's where I go to the second point.
After empathy comes perspective where it's not about winning or losing. In game theory, there are two kinds of games. There are finite games and there are infinite games. And this is how you're going to change your perspective. Right?
A finite game is defined as known players, fixed rules, and it agreed upon objective. Baseball, for example. We know the rules. We all agree to the rules. And whoever has more runs at the end of nine innings is the winner. And the game is over.
No one ever says, "We can just play two more innings. I know we can come back." Does work that way. The game is over. Right? That's a finite game. Then you have an infinite game. Infinite games are defined as known and unknown players. The rules are changeable. And the objective is to keep the game in play. To perpetuate the game.
When you put a finite player versus a finite player, the system is stable. Baseball is stable. Right? When you put an infinite player versus an infinite player, the system is also stable. Like the Cold War, for example. Because there cannot be a winner and a loser. There are no winners and losers in an infinite game. Right? It doesn't exist.
And because there are no winners or losers, what ends up happening in the infinite contest is players drop out when they run out of the will or the resources to play. But there's no winners or losers.
Problems arise when you put a finite player versus an infinite player. Because a finite player is playing to win and an infinite player is to keep the game going. Right? This is what happened to us in Vietnam. We were playing to win and the Vietnamese were fighting for their lives. We were the ones who got stuck in Quagmire. This is the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.
They were trying to beat the Mujahideen and the Mujahideen would fight for as long as it's necessary. Quagmire. Now let's look at business. The game of business has pre-existed or has existed long before every single company that exists on this planet today.
And it will outlast every single company that exists on this planet today. There's no winning the game of business. And the reason is because we haven't agreed to the rules.
I get such a kick out of this. You realize how many companies actually don't know the game they're in. Listen to the language that the companies use. We're trying to beat our competition. We're trying to be number one.
Did you know that we were ranked number one? Look at the listing. Based on what criteria? Revenues, profits, market share, square footage, number of employees. Based on what time frame? A quarter, a year, five years, ten years, 20 years, 50 years, a hundred years?
I haven't agreed to those standards. How can you declare yourself the winner? How can you declare yourself number one? Where no one else in the game has agreed to the rules?
It's arbitrary. There is no winning because there's no end. In other words, companies are playing finite games. Listen to their language. They're trying to beat their competition. It's the leaders in the companies that understand the game that they're in and organize their resources and their decision making around the infinite contest that outlast and frustrate their competition.
All the companies that we've referred to as the exceptions, Southwest Airlines, Apple computers, Harley Davidson, they're the exception. No, they're playing the infinite contest. They frustrate their competition is what happens.
That's what happens because they're not playing to win. Jim Senegal, the founder of Costco, which is the only real company that gives Walmart a run for its money.
He says public companies are looking to succeed for the quarter. He says we're looking for the next 50 years. You can hear him. He's playing the infinite contest.
I spoke at a leadership summit for Microsoft. I also spoke at a leadership summit for Apple. At the Microsoft summit, I would say 70% of the executives, and this was under the Steve Balmer days, I would say about 70% of the executives spent about 70% of their presentations talking about how to beat Apple.
At the Apple summit, 100% of the executives spent 100% of their presentations talking about how to help teachers teach and how to help students learn.
One was obsessed with their competition. The other one was obsessed with where they're going. At the end of my presentation at Microsoft, they gave me a gift. They gave me the New Zoom, which was the competitor to the iPod Touch when it was a thing.
I have to tell you, this piece of technology was spectacular. It was beautiful. The user interface was incredible. The design was amazing. It was intuitive. It was one of the most beautiful, elegant pieces of technology I'd ever seen.
Now, it didn't work with iTunes, which is an entirely different problem. I couldn't use it. But that's something else. I'm sitting in the back of a taxi with a senior Apple executive, sort of employee number 12 kind of guy, and I decided to stir the pot.
I said, "You know, I spoke at a Microsoft summit, and they gave me the New Zoom, and I have to tell you, it is so much better than your iPod Touch."
And he turned to me and said, "I have no doubt. Conversation over." Because the infinite player isn't playing to be number one every day with every product. They're playing to outlast the competition.
If I had sent to Microsoft, "Oh, I've got the new iPod touch
"it's so much better than your new Zoom,"
can we see it? What does it do? We have to see it. Because one is obsessed with their competition,
the other is obsessed with why they do what they do, the other is obsessed with where they're going.
And the reason Apple frustrates their competition is because secretly, they're not even competing
against them. They're competing against themselves. And they understand that sometimes you're a little
bit ahead and sometimes you're a little bit behind and sometimes your product is better and sometimes
you're not. But if you wake up every single morning and compete against yourself, how do I make
our products better than they were yesterday? How do I take care of our customers better than
we did yesterday? How do we advance our cause more efficiently, more productively than we did
yesterday? How do we find new solutions to advance our calling, our cause, our purpose, our belief,
our why every single day? What you will find is over time you will probably be ahead more often.
Those who play the infinite game understand it's not about the battle, it's about the war.
And they don't play to win every day. And they frustrate their competition until their
competition drops out of the game. Every single bankruptcy, almost every merger and acquisition
is basically a company saying we no longer have the will or the resources to continue to play,
and we have no choice to either drop out of the game or merge our resources with another player
so that we can stay in the game. That's what that is. And if you think about the number of
bankruptcies and mergers and acquisitions, it's kind of proof that most companies don't even know
the game they're in. You want to be a great leader, start with empathy. You want to be a great leader,
change your perspective and play the game you're actually playing. Thank you very much.
Podcast Summary
Key Points:
Great leaders must cultivate empathy and perspective, which are often overlooked in favor of status and control.
Leadership is a learnable skill, like a muscle, requiring daily practice to develop and maintain.
The transition from managing tasks to leading people is critical, yet most organizations fail to train leaders in this shift.
Empathy involves genuinely caring about employees' well-being, recognizing that performance issues stem from personal struggles, not failure.
Businesses are often playing finite games—focused on winning against competitors—instead of infinite games, which prioritize long-term sustainability and purpose.
Infinite games have no winners or losers; success is measured by endurance and continuous improvement, not short-term gains.
Companies that focus on self-improvement and purpose (like Apple or Southwest) frustrate competitors by staying ahead of themselves, not just rivals.
A culture of vulnerability and trust allows employees to admit mistakes, grow, and perform at their natural best.
Summary:
The speaker argues that true leadership begins with empathy and perspective, not power or status. While organizations often demand performance and punish failure, leaders must instead see employees as human beings with personal struggles that affect work. ” This shift fosters trust and psychological safety.
The speaker contrasts finite games—where companies compete to win and lose—against infinite games, where the goal is long-term survival and continuous growth. Companies like Apple and Southwest thrive not by outperforming rivals, but by focusing on internal progress and purpose. The speaker highlights that most leaders are trapped in short-term competition, ignoring the deeper game of enduring value.
True leadership, therefore, means creating environments where people feel seen, supported, and safe to grow. Leaders must move beyond winning to nurturing, fostering resilience, and playing long-term games. This change in mindset—rooted in empathy and infinite perspective—transforms both individual performance and organizational sustainability.
FAQs
Great leaders need empathy and perspective. These qualities are often overlooked in favor of status and control.
They are not trained in leadership skills and often lack the experience to take care of people, instead focusing on managing tasks and outcomes.
Empathy means asking someone how they're doing when performance drops, showing concern about their personal life, not just their work output.
Leadership is about caring for people and taking responsibility for their well-being, while management is about overseeing tasks and processes.
Finite games have fixed rules and a clear winner; infinite games have changing rules and no winner, focusing instead on long-term sustainability and growth.
They focus on continuous improvement and serving their purpose, not on beating rivals, leading to long-term resilience and innovation.
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