Simon Dixon - Co-Founder of DixonBaxi

Welcome to my life in design, brought to you by the DBA and design-focused PR Agency, Red Setter. I'm Claire Blive, co-founder of Red Setter. This series are the speaking to more people who are shaping the world of design, finding out how they discovered that design was a thing you face a career around and how they got to where they are today. This week I am here with Simon Dixon, co-founder of one of my favourite design agencies, Dixon Baxi. We're recording live from the Crown and two chairman pub in London, Soho, a place where I've spent way too long in my 20s and quite a lot of my early 30s, so it's really nice to be back here. It's a lot more than it used to be. Simon co-founded Dixon Baxi 20 years ago, was it? 24. 24 years ago, wow, okay, 2001, of course. 2001, yeah. And works with some of the most iconic brands in the world. He works with brands such as AC Milan, Everton, Roblox, Formula One, ITVX, Hulu, Samsung, Apple, Google, ESPN, Netflix. The list goes on. Simon, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, thanks for having me. So can I go back to I assume so when you were a child, like when when did you realise design was something you could do as a career? I grew up in a very behemium house, so my dad was a journalist in a photographer. Oh, okay. I was homeschooled, so I didn't go to school. Where are you? That's that. That's the comparison, but it's fantastic. But myself and my two sisters were homeschooled by my mother and certain friends, so that meant we met the world in a very different way to other people, I guess. I don't know the difference really, because I didn't experience the alternative, but I was always a person who was visual, so I like to draw, I used to make comics, I was very much about how things looked and what was what happened was in the house, there was a lot of 12 inch records. Yeah. And my parents' friends will be rolling joints on them and sat around looking at them endlessly. And when I looked at those things, I thought, well, the design of this, the visual aspect of it matches the music. And somebody has made that decision to do that. And then I saw names on the back of those albums. And I thought, well, that's cool. Someone has done that as a thing. It must be a career. So I figured, why don't I look into that? So I didn't go to university. I went to provincial college, but I tried lots of different things. I tried photography, illustration. Did you do it on foundation course? Yeah, I did a foundation course, but I'd been drawing and painting and making things my entire life. So I think it's really interesting that you noticed that I had loads of albums in my bedroom and was really interested in the music, but it never entered my head that that was something that someone did as a career. I think it's brilliant. Yeah. And, you know, I wanted to be an astronaut. Of course. And then a paleontologist and then a professional footballer, and my lack of intelligence and physical ability, got rid of all of those right quickly. So what was left was making things. And I just have always learned by making and doing. Yeah. I just think I find that much easier to try things. So when I was younger, I just would make things and try it. And some things were better than others. But I found that the visual language and storytelling and visual systems just seemed to suit my mindset and how I met the world. Did you sort of find that out at Art Foundation and sort of get into the graphic side of things? So I used to like all the kind of graphic stuff. So I go into typography, actually, that's what I like. So I used to kind of nerd out on kerning and typography and I read a lot about Swiss typography going to that. But at the same time, I was independent as like Rothko and Roush, but actually, sorry. And they were very kind of expressive and materialistic in the sense of there was a structure to how they made things. So I just used to layer things together. I tried photography with typography. I'd make things for real. I'd scan them in and I'd just try different processes. And this was at the point in the 80s when digitisation came in. So we had, you know, very, very, very simple computers. And I mixed that with real-world work. And I found that graphic suited me. I was never going to be an artist. I didn't have a specific vision for art. But I found that I could make things that connected to other people for a reason. And that's why I did it. Wow. Interesting. So is that what you then went to some study at university or did you go to university? No, I started my first agency on a provincial design college. They called it an ordinary national diploma, which was highly motivating. I don't even know if it passed that, actually. So you started an agency when I was 19 or two ago? What stopped you going to university and what stopped you going to work with someone else? I didn't get into any universities. So a lack of talent, intelligence, ability to communicate. I don't know. I was very shy, young man. So I found it very difficult to talk to people. I started to build the capacity to do that as I built my practice. But when we started the agency, we were too stupid and young to realise we shouldn't have a company. And we did that until the point that we realised that financially it wouldn't work. But it was great while we did it. Yeah, definitely. You went out and went clients and kind of manhandled them into the studio. I think most of them were our friends. So they were people who put a Ravenite sonner would make music. So a lot of it was through the music industry. So we would go to nightclubs and speak to people and say we can make you fly it. Yeah, right. Flyers are a whole lot for me. I love it. Yeah. And they're disposable. Yeah. So you make one. You share it with people and you know if they're like instantly. And then the next day you can make another one. And the next day you can make another one. Yeah. And also you can design all day and then go out all night. So they're lovely balance to that lifestyle. Certainly in your 20s. Yeah. I wouldn't do that now obviously. But it was, it was like it was a life choice. So I've always loved the idea of creating for a living is an amazing thing to be able to express yourself professionally is an amazing thing. So I've always had a I haven't really had a life work balance in that kind of traditional sense. Obviously I try not to burn myself out. But I just like making things for people. And if you go out and meet people and hang out with them, you have a better understanding of whether or not your work works. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So what happened? What happened to that agency? What was it called? Orange. Orange. Yeah. And my grandad always used to say we should have sold the name to orange the telecommunications company. Yeah. But we folded just a bit too thin. So yeah, we're a bit of a disaster. Our logo was a blue circle. Why? Because when you look away from the blue circle, you see an orange circle. Interesting. That's how bad we were. That's how much into the details we were. But it was a great thing. So we did that for about three or four years. And we did make some money. We could obviously live. We traded work with a record company for an office space in the back of the record shop. And we got to live and hang out. And we learnt about the basics of running a business, albeit not very successfully. So then when we developed our careers, we'd at least determined what type of work we'd like to make. And who was that? Was that you and? A guy called Gary Brown and a guy called Chris Ashworth. Oh, okay. Chris went on to do blah, blah, blah. And I think he works at Microsoft now. And Gary has had agencies in the North of England, ever since, and worked at Designers Republic. Oh, okay. Yeah, the Sunshine Republic. So what after that, what happened next? I joined a group of people who I basically got a job because I thought I got a London to make my fame and fortune by no money. So I went to an agency in the North and got a job there. And while I was there, one of the founders said that we want to open a studio in London. And I said, I'll do that with you. So we took the work that I did. We went down, shared that with people. And it went really well. And that studio grew very quickly. And then somebody else said, we should open another studio. And they said, let's go to New York. And I said, oh, I'll do that. So after two years, I went to New York to open studio with someone else. I make it sound very easy. But again, I didn't know what I was doing. But then two years after that, that went really well. So someone said, I wish I'd service our West Coast client. So I went to San Francisco to open that studio. So I went from Boy to Man very quickly. And what agency was that? What's there? I don't say the name, but it was a nice agency. It's a long time ago. Yeah. Okay. It's an amazing experience for work. Again, we learn by doing. So what we found is if we express ourselves and made work, which we thought was distinct and specific to us, and found people who connected with that emotionally, professionally, and saw the effect of the work on the audience, because that's really what's about. If you make work of any know, it needs to work for the people you're designing for, not for you or the client. Of course, you have to feel the work and believe in it. But you're designing for the people. So if somebody who's playing on, you know, PlayStation, doesn't connect to the design you're creating, then it doesn't work. And I think our work has always been very visceral and emotional and kind of connected, albeit not on the screen anymore. Oh, it's just disappeared. I think it works for people. I mean, I mean, really real people. And that's what's about, I've always been super interested in how design is democratised and serves people everywhere globally. And you make things that are on their terms, not on your terms. And you have to figure out what works for them, because if you work for AC Milan, it's different to work with Netflix. They have different desires and emotional connections with football. Of course. If you make that choice, it's a live choice. It's ingrained in everything in your community, your life, your family. Yeah. Netflix is, I've got half an hour, I've made some pass, I've got a glass of red wine, watch what I like, watch. Yeah. They're different experiences. So you have to serve those masters, well, I think. The fact that, let's go on to this new feature, but the fact that you even won the job with AC Milan always blows my mind, like a sort of hardcore Italian team with a, I would never enter my head that they go anywhere outside of Italy. And the work you've done is fantastic. It's really good, but engaging that core, that core mentality must, it must have been hard decision for them to make. Yeah, culturally. Yeah. It seemed to go, but the fans seem to. Are the fans with family? They did try any kind of pigs on this. Yeah. It's amazing. Attacking like that. I mean, they do. They do crazy things if you don't get it right. But again, it's about sensitivity to people. So with that project, they wanted to work with somebody who had an objective opinion of what they were as a, as a football club. But they wanted to take the Milanese spirit to the world. They want to globalize their brand. And we do that very well. We've done it for lots of different types of companies. And we try and do that in a way that serves the people. And of course, fans are kind of, in a sense, super fans of the brand. So when we talk to them, they're just connected with our connection with the people that they serve. But we also understood that there's 80,000 people in the stadium, but in order to grow brand like AC Milan, you have to speak to somebody in Malaysia, into someone in Africa and somebody in North America and China. And that person might just wear the jersey. They might like the idea of it. So turning that into something that they care about is a lifestyle choice. It's not just a sport choice. It's about how it connects to the lives. So it's just about taking them in a non-generic globalized way, the spirit and the ethos and the meaning of what AC Milan is, rather than it just being sport or football, because football is football. But AC Milan is not everton. They're different communities, different styles of football, different histories. So it's about legacy history and community. And if you can get that right, people all over the world can connect with it. And it has to look cool. Yeah, that's what you did look cool. So going back to sort of like your journey, does that lead up to when you were in New York, because that were you met a paulver for the first time? I met him in London. Ah, so you met him in like a paulver's sign in the co-founder and business partner, by the way. Yeah, and it's the best friend. He's like my brother. So we've been together for 30 years. Wow. So same time as my wife. So have two very amazing relationships. Obviously, my wife is the most fundamental to my life. She's the principal of the company. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so it's very fascinating set up. I don't know why either of them spend any time with me, but that's a, that's a different podcast. But yeah, a paulver's my best friend. He's my brother. And we've done a lot of things together. But I met him in London and he was the first person that we employed in that, that, that studio. And the, the story goes is we'd hide someone. Then the friend of mine Ben said, meet this guy. He's super cool. So I met a paulver. We talked about films and design and life and the following day I rang the person up and said, I've made a mistake and hired a paulver instead. Which apart from asking my wife to marry me is the best thing I ever did. Yeah, absolutely. That's a good introduction though with. But he was. He would genuinely was because we then worked together on and off opening studios. He replaced me in New York when I went to San Francisco. And then after about six or seven years of doing that, I said to him, we should just do something different. Like he's a reaction to what we've done. Let's find a different way of creating. Yeah. So we started Dixon Baxie and started in a very small way. We were two people for about five years. Well, we were really were you? So from what 2001-2006, it was just you and a paulver. Just two of us, yeah. Wow, okay. We wanted to kind of refine what we were as creatives. We wanted to get back to, when you scale something very rapidly, you lose touch with the work. Yeah. And I was only 30 at the time. So I'd gone from 19 to 13, four cities and five studios. I can't remember what it was, but lots of different shots, best times. Yeah. They felt very disconnected from our creativity. So I wanted to get back to something simple and pure. But we didn't know what that would be. So we just started things at Baxie and started. We didn't show any previous work. We just went to meet people and talk to them about how we thought. And we were looking if that someone gave us some work. And then we just kept doing it. Who was your first client? Two companies. One was a financial advisory firm that was a friend of mine on. So he helped us get going by giving a rebrand of his company, a company corporate, which we're eternally grateful for. And the other one was MTV. That's a good first client. Really good. So we did MTV too for them, which was a music channel in the UK. And it was very successful. It got us a lot of work after we did that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you can still see him in that sort of entertainment and music and think you're work today. It's a yeah. We've always had a nice affinity to, I guess, cultural brands, iconic brands that are in entertainment, sport, content, things that connect to the world technology. So we just did last year, we did the 42th anniversary VMAs for MTV. I did do. So that means we've worked with them for 30 years. Wow. One of our first clients in London was MTV, one of our first clients in New York was MTV. Different people, of course. So we've had this really wonderful on and off relationship with them for a very long time. Yeah. How did you get them as a client? I'm trying to think of like, young people listening to the podcast or anyone here today that's thinking, how do I get the chance? What's the chain of events? Yeah, like what can people learn from the app? Yeah. Obviously, when people look at us and look at our portfolio and things like that, they don't realize that I'm a 30 some year overnight success. Yeah. So it's a long journey to get where I got to. So I started doing flyers. So I was paid 300 pounds for doing a flyer and a poster. Yeah. You know, you get 200 quid to print it so you maybe can do two colors. It's pretty disposable. You don't really know what you're doing. And you keep doing that. And then someone says you can do a 12 inch record cover. Yeah. So maybe get 500 pounds. You get four colors and they print a thousand of them and you're going to record. And we go, shit, that's my album. Not mine, obviously, the designs. And they do that. And then somebody says, can you make that movie? Yeah, we may be make a little video that goes with that. And then maybe you make something for a games cover. And then someone likes that games cover and say, well, what if you did something for the beginning of a TV show? So you do that. And then someone says, how would that apply to a channel design? Can you make some identity go? Yeah, of course. So you do that. And then before you know it, you're making design systems. Yeah. So it's it's little and often adult thing is any magic to it. I think you level out where you deserve and the industry based on talent for some people, but also the mechanics of how you make your work and how you grow your career. And I think if you show people that your work is effective for the people that needs to be effective for, they're more likely to use you. And we've never really sold ourselves with propositions or like the mechanics of how the industry works. Because again, like I said, we're self-taught. We don't know how actual the real industry works. So you need to have the complex branding diagram. So we so we got also it's a terrible diagram. But what we're trying to do is simplify things into human terms. So when you talk to somebody, you talk about the problem. What do they need solving? Yeah. Why is it need solving? What's the problem behind the brief? What's the pressure on people? What's the blockage in the company? Who do they need to serve? And serve those people well. Yeah. But serve them with work that's not condescending. That doesn't talk down to them. That works. Not work that looks great on the surface or in a bento box. But it works for real when someone swipes the phone or puts the television on or looks at something. You can't be with real work when it hits the world. You can't sit next to it. And like you would at an award and go, I did this and I did this and we had this fantastic thing that's behind it. When your work hits the world, it either works or it not. You can't sit next. People engage their reaction. No, because the audience will tell you. And if people don't subscribe, if people don't use it, if people don't like it or emotionally engage with it, it doesn't grow the business. And your work doesn't work. Yeah. So that's the, that's the test. That's the principle of getting it right and getting it right. And you know, I want to make work that excites people and thrills people, including ourselves. I want our team to feel like they're making things that fulfill them and they're growing. Yeah. And they're developing as people because that's one of the great things about our industries. You can represent yourself and your culture and your background and the things that are meaningful to you through your work. And you can collaborate with people. You independently, you can learn, but you can do it together as a team. And there's something amazing about that. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, you do it very well. Can I ask about the principles? If you've got like guiding principles, I can't remember what you call them, but you set text and back to it, we're essential. Yeah, the essentials. It's like how I kind of super market cheap line, isn't it? So basically what we figured out was, and I figured this out relatively early in my career is that I think principles and values take you further than propositions and pitches, mainly because I'm not very good at that stuff, but also I believe what I believe. And I think making space for you to create with the people you create with in a good and honest way that is meaningful and useful to people requires an opinion on the world and how you carry yourself. And what I found is when we've been tested really hard, our principles bring us back to things that make us who we are and make the work that matters to us. Yeah. Rather than trends or the six hacks to have a great business or what the industry tells you you should do. And I love the industry. Everyone, it is awesome, nearly. But I don't like things that performative, I don't like things which binary, I don't like the idea that there's only one way of doing the things. There's many ways of doing that. And I think the key to a successful career is finding the truth of what you do and how you do that with the people you choose to do that with. Yeah. And principles are a great way of doing that. Yeah, absolutely. What can you share a couple of the principles or is that highly guarded. No, no, it's online. It's on the website. Yeah, it's fully online. What it is is, I'm trying to remember, refacking, remember them. Yeah, that's good. I forgot to ask you about this beforehand. No, I can't. I can't, I can't. Of course, remember them. But they're very simple things. It's about having a high tolerance for change. It's about understanding that you have an effect on people. So you should carry yourself in a good way. Yeah. It's about being receptive to that change in a way that is defined by how you do your creativity, not some abstract notion of it. It's about being fluent in people. So understanding the client, the people we work with, and the people we serve. It's about being comfortable with going too far so that creatively, you're constantly the edge of yours. So it's a lot of those types of things. It's not working in ways that don't suit you, morally structurally, financially, creatively. Yeah. So they're all about just centering around things that make sense and we value. That's how you don't prioritize the many as obviously money's important to make business go. That's not the first thing you look for. No, it's people creativity, then money. It's always in that order. If you get people right, the relationships you protect people, you grow them, they will make better work. If they make better work, you'll get paid better because you deserve to be paid well. So it's quite simple. If you share some money, I'd been a different industry if I wanted to make just actual money. What I want to do, make things that I enjoy and are meaningful and useful to people. Money to me is about control, and not in a megalomania way. But if you want to sustain yourself for any period of time and choose the work you want to do and I'll curate the type of work you want to do, having financial strength means that you can focus on the things you're good at doing in relationships. You think you'll bring something to the table rather than just will do work for work's sake. Yeah. Yeah, that makes so to me, a financial strength is a creative discipline. Yes. It's a business thing, but it's it means you can be more creative. It's the same with growth and sales curating your relationships and the pragmatic aspect of building those relationships means you get better clients and you serve them better, which means you get better work. So that's a creative practice. Yeah. So everything we do is a creative practice. It's not business and creative, money and creative. All of it determines what you are in the world. Yeah. All creative. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, I like money. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not. Yes. But I'm not chipping materialistic person. Yes. What I really like, is if I look at a piece of work and I think that's for I can I swear. Yeah. Of course. I think something fucking cool. Yeah. And get excited by it. That's worth a lot more to me than lots of other things. Yeah. Definitely. I agree. Classic about how you inspire your own creativity. Is there anything particular that you do or is it the people around you? Yeah. It's an interesting question. There's a there's a like a star inside me, like a little fire. And that's for some reason that's always been there. So I get massive enthusiasm from the exercise of thinking creatively and interacting with people. And then I go into the studio and I see what the team are making. So what I get now is my job is to create the space for them to create rather than make myself make the work. So there's a kind of vicarious thrill to seeing that work. I get great joy from it. Yeah. And it gives me great energy. And if I see when I walk around the studio that they're at the edge of what they do and creatively and growing and it's something that we all love, then I love it. Yeah. And so that's what inspires me. I travel, I look at things and I do what everybody else does. But I've always been I like to think first that rather than look at things. I think about things a lot. So if I want to kind of reboot, I read. That's what I do. So I'll sit and I read. And while I'm reading, my mind will wander and I'll think about the thing that's important to me. Yeah. And the idea pops in my head. And I've got loads of books that haven't read because of that. But it's a great exercise to kind of reboot me. Definitely. Yeah. There's similar thing with going for a walk. Yeah. Trying to go for a walk without my mobile. I think what is it? It's about being present with yourself and giving yourself time to not do the thing you think you're doing. And if you've soaked up enough insight and information and had the conversations spontaneously, you will think about the thing that comes to front of mind. And I trust my instincts and my gut. I check out my process, a lot of information, but I trust myself to think about the thing that to me is the most important. And that sets the fire. And then I like talking about as well. So endlessly annoy people by talking to them in the studio. And while I'm doing that and processing, whether or not that's a good idea. Yeah. That's good. That's my my my's atmosphere in the studio for that. Well, you'd have to ask them that. I think annoyed people, obviously. But I think talking about work is really important because if you if you talk about things without anything to talk about, you have to use imagination and you have to use communication. If I said you like that bottle, then obviously we're already talking about a specific thing. Yeah. But if I talk to you about how should you drink the beer? Yeah. And what is the beer like? You're more liberated to think differently. So I think it's important to create space to do that rather than both relying tools, technology and mechanics of creation to do that because if you do that, you'll be doing the same work as everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. That's going to write questions and yeah, going from there. Can I ask about your role at Dickson-Baxie? So it must have changed a lot from when it started when it's two of you to what you do today. Imagine what do I do? Yeah, what do you do? What do you do? I can't say because if I do, the truth will be out. If I actually do anything, I save no real purpose. But I know you do lots of talks and you work with lots of things. I do lots of things. There's a lot of things. I do a number of things. So I'm a trained designer. Yes. So I started out as a graphic designer and I've done a lot of the work that we did originally. I do work like that. Yeah. But I'm not practicing design in the same way anymore. Though I did work on a recent book and things like that. So I do things to keep myself out of mischief. Yeah, the book sounds cooler. Yeah, I would have brought it. I'll send you one. I create the space for other people to create. So that's one thing. I set, help set the standards for that creation. Yeah. I help determine the direction of the company, help cure it and set the direction of who we work with. I set the direction, I'll try with other people, set the direction of how we meet the world in terms of technology and our ability to deliver on our work. I want to set the moral standards of the company and I want to make sure we have an environment where people it's open, accessible to as many people as possible from wherever background they're from. Yeah. And then when they're with us, we develop them, we grow them and we hopefully they do very well. And then we hand them over to the next person, better than we receive them. So they have strong careers or they stay with us and grow and develop. And then I try also because I think the world is a complex, heavy place and has been for a long time, our industry is very opaque. So we try to share things that will maybe help people understand that there's lots of different ways of being creative and it's not a perfect thing. I do a lot of that and then I do a lot of talks and mentoring just because I feel it's the least I could do. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really good. You guys have got an interest in program, haven't you? I can't remember what it is where you get students in or graduates or anyone is it from different backgrounds and. We're in Ternacademy. Yeah, in Ternacademy. We have an in Ternacademy. So we've had it for a very long time, years and years and years, it pays 10% over the actual London living wage. It's a three month program and more than the third of our team came through that program. Really? Wow. How many people now? 57. Wow. That's really impressive. A lot of people from all over the world. Yeah. So we've got 18 different countries. Wow. So Lebanon and Hong Kong and China and America and Nigeria and Italy and Germany. A lot of different countries. A lot of South Americans. So we've got Venezuela, Brazil, Chile. So lots of people, lots of different places. But it's a, yeah, it's about how can we give people access to the industry? And Marta, who is a head of practice, who's just been promoted from head of production to head of practice. She started with us in the intern. Wow. So for us, it's about that growth and development because obviously we can only help certain number of people get into the industry, but I think it's a fundamental thing to help us be as diverse and equitable as an industry as possible as you have to invest in that. I think that's very interesting, isn't it? Because it's a good thing to do, but you're not just doing it because you're being nice. It's because it produces the best work and the best atmosphere and best. Yeah. Well, I think there's, it's not about being nice. It's a moral thing. So it's being fair. Well, obviously you should do it. You should do it. But it also happens that it. But it makes better work. But it makes better people. I'm a better person because of it. I learn I develop and I grow as a person. So I matured and developed, I think, into a better person than I was through meeting people that I wouldn't have met unless we'd have been more receptive to different types of people in the world. And I think it's a healthy thing. There's too much. There's not enough celebration of difference. There's too much binary in the world, which is negative. And I think we share a lot more than we have differences. The more I travel, the more I realize the world is an amazing place. And I want to draw on the optimistic and positive parts of that because the world is can be very tough. So in our studio, I want it to be safe and democratise and open and collective for people so that they feel they can make great work. We make better work. We have a better lifestyle. It's not perfect by a long chalk, but we're a work in progress. And I think I get better through working with lots of different types of people. Yeah. Yeah. I think that comes across in the work. I think it makes a big difference. Can I ask you about the design industry? How much you get involved in it? What sort of challenges there are? What do you think of it? Yeah, that's a couple of questions, isn't it? I am inherently in the industry. Yeah, of course. But I've always felt we're like a cork that bobbles around in a slightly different place to other people. Obviously we take part in industry panels and talks and judging and various things. We invest in and sponsor lots of different events and people in the background. What sort of stuff? I don't want to say it specifically, but we support a lot of people in the background. I don't like talking about it because I don't want it to be about us. It's about them. Yes, I don't mean to be. No, absolutely. I can't. So yeah, and I'm a great champion of our industry. I think it's an amazing thing. We get kicked around a little bit and I don't think people outside our industry quite understand what we do, but it's a profoundly amazing thing to do, to create for a living. Like everything the entire fabric of life is designed. So to be part of that is a really cool thing. So I think our industry does something amazing and I'm very proud of it. And the changes it's made in the last 25, 30 years are incredible. It's right at the edge of where business is improving the world. It's showing people that you can do better and I'm very proud of the industry doing that. Yeah, definitely. Well, that's one of the reasons I like working in it so much because you kind of feel that I'm living in the future a little bit. Yeah. That you sort of see what's coming next in all the different sectors and all different areas. It's very interesting. It's far from perfect and the world isn't perfect and life isn't perfect. But I think if you meet it in an objective, positive and open way, you can be part of the change. And I like being part of that change in learning and developing and getting better at what we do. I think that's a really good thing. And I think a lot of our industry does that. Some of it doesn't, but yeah. You know, and there's all sorts of challenges. Obviously, there are financial challenges for our industry. It's very difficult to get work. It's difficult to make money. It's difficult to systemize that. Giving the access to talent is a really fundamental thing to make sure that all the things that I talked about earlier happen. Making great work is hard. It's difficult to keep making original, distinct and different work. We all see the same thing. So it's very easy to pick up on the same habits. We're a bit obsessed by trends and information and widgets and data. I think creativity is more fundamental than that. So I think it's better to center around something else. But I think we're a great working progress. So that's why I think about the industry. And if I see a challenge in it, I think I can only control what I control. So I try and do that in an honorable and creative way and express that to other people and then work with people who think the same way. Yeah, absolutely. That sounds good. Can I ask about what's next for Dix and Baxi? A 25th anniversary. So a 25th anniversary? Next year. How are you going to celebrate it? Well, be a wild party. That's for sure. Excellent. That sounds good. Yeah, we'll do a monograph to celebrate the 25 years of our work. But the funny thing about what's next, I get asked this a lot. But I don't really think like that. I think about the moment. Yeah, because you can't affect what's next. There's what's next. You know, I have no idea how the world's going to be. And I don't know how I feel either. But what I do know is I get great joy from what I do. And at any given day, I look in my hand and I go, well, I've got these things. I've got what I do. The people I do it with are portfolio, a position in the world. What's happening in the world? What excites us? So what should we go to do now? Yeah. Because there's a lot of things that people tell you you should tick off as you do have a career. But I like the idea of what does it feel like today to do the thing you're doing? And why are you doing that thing? And if you're more, or to me, if you're more present, you save the thing that you're doing rather than putting that off for another day. Yeah. Because next week, if we had this chat, I might think something different. But I've got, I mean, with two or three things we're going to do next year and announce, which I think are things. Yeah. I can't tell you about them now. So they will be fun things we do. But cool. You know, being in the moment and being present with the work and making a difference is far more important to me than what is next. Yeah. That makes sense. What's now? I want to be present in any particular moment I'm in. Yeah. Hence the work in progress. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Can I ask you a final question of top tips for young people starting out today, sort of beyond pure design skills. How can they set themselves apart? Yeah. It's a really tricky thing because there's a lot of competition. Yeah. So often if we put an ad out, say a senior designer, we may get a thousand people apply. And we can't look at a thousand portfolios, we'll try our best. Wow. A thousand. Yeah. Yeah. We get people from all over the world. Yeah. So it can be very competitive. And I think what happens is people hear that they should do a certain thing. Yeah. Be a specialist. Be a generalist. You portfolio should do this. You know, lots of tips. But the truth is the people who are more successful are the ones that humanize a relationship. When someone ascends your message, I get a lot of people who just throw me a portfolio. They'll send me a, it's a bit like throwing a brick through your window with a note on it. It says, I'm a designer. It's not particularly attractive. Yes. But I get contacted all the time by people who every single day that say, Hey, I was thinking next. What do you think about that? And they start a conversation. And what it is, it's reciprocal. It's not just turning up and going, Hey, I've got this thing to sell. Will you buy it? Yes. And of course I won. I'm like, I'm doing something else. But if someone says I was thinking this or what about this or you build a relationship. So I think try and build relationships, try and you see yourself as a distinct thing. You're not a portfolio, you're an idea. So when I think about, when I say Claire, I think of something. So I think about someone who helps the industry. I think if someone's really creative, someone who's really giving. So you have a thing. Yeah. So that's the thing. And you didn't make that up. You didn't write that down and say, my proposition is helping the industry. You chose to do that. And every time you meet the world, you do that. So I find people who sent around what they think is their version of the world. They interact. They speak to a lot of people. They show up at events like this. They listen to people as well as talk to them. They don't ask for things immediately. They ask for advice. Their portfolio is not a load of slides that said, I did this brief and I did this brief. They explained the benefit of it. Why they made the choices. The humanize themselves. All of those things help. Research the agencies that you go for sending to the same 50 agencies. There's everybody else isn't really research. There's millions, not millions. There's thousands of fantastic agencies in this industry. Look for a place that will teach you, allow you to grow. Find places that you can connect with in terms of how they see the world. And then talk to them. So when you go to an interview, ask them questions and get involved with them. Research them. Research the people you're talking to. A lot of people stay completely abstract at the point that they're into in the industry. And then they're confounded that people are confused. I hear that a lot. And don't be negative either. So I had someone come to see me the other day. And I said, how are you? And he said, I can't remember the word, but he said, everything's torturous. So I said, okay, great. So sit down. Have a glass of water. So I tried to lift the energy. And I said, you know, how's it going? And he said, oh, it's just very painful. He said, oh, wow, this is going to be a long chat. So I said to him, look, you're sat with me in my studio. Yeah. You got into my studio. How bad is that? You know, like not that I'm a particularly cool guy, but you've succeeded in the thing that you wanted to do. He must have had so much effort to get to that point. Yeah, but why? Why not just ask me a question. I'll talk talk about something interesting. Yeah. Why not talk, you know, come into the room and say, I say, how are you doing? He said, well, obviously, it's a really pivotal time in my career. I'm trying to enter industry, but I don't actually know what industry is. I know no education. And that gap is really big to me. Yeah. So we're now we're having a conversation. I can't have a conversation if it's a blank wall. So just treat the other person as a person and interact with them and humanize that relationship. And you'll get a lot of people, I think. So and that person's only learning. So I'm not being critical about person. Yes. But I think carrying baggage is very, very heavy. So allowing yourself not to have that is really healthy. In that moment, it is difficult. Yeah. It's really very, very hard. But in the moment, if you're in that, be clear enough that you want to get something out of it, but it's reciprocal. And you're interested in the person, you'll make a connection. Not making it all about you. Yeah. And then do you have a greater chance? This isn't your chance to perform. It's your chance to find out. So it's about agency. The more you take control of your destiny, the better. It will still be hard. It always is. I've been rejected by some of the best companies in the world. And I still am every single week. Interesting. That must be really good for people to hear. I bet people think you must feel to walk into anything now. No, of course not. I mean, I have to talk to people and say, and they say, say, what's the like to work your edge and say, I go, blah, blah, blah, it's this like this. It's nice. We have a chat. And then four out of three reject me. Yeah. Still, yeah. To somebody else. Yeah. But I'm only going to work with the one who likes it. Yeah. So it's okay. Rejection is inherent to the industry. It doesn't mean it's about you. It doesn't mean that you've done a bad job. It's just not everybody can work with everybody. So see the fact that you only need so many relationships and connections in order to develop a career. You don't need what other people have. You don't need an idea that someone tells you. You don't need some hack. That someone tells you online. What you need is a thing you need. So get something small and develop that. And once you have that thing, you can have something else. Yeah. If you try and rush to the end thing, you haven't learned enough about the thing you need to get early on. So if 99 real side tried to do what I do now, we wouldn't work, would it? Yeah. I've had to learn how to do that thing. And there's nothing wrong with that humility of realizing that it takes a little bit of time to get the thing you need. So determination and persistence and like I say, humanizing those relationships is really important. Yeah. That's very good advice. Simon, thank you so much. I was thinking, would it be good to do a couple of questions for you? Have anyone's got a question for Simon? When you did the Everton work. Yes. I remember probably about five, 10 years ago. They unsuccessfully launched a new crest badge. Yeah. And it went down like a lead balloon. Yeah. To what extent did you consult with the fan base? And to what extent, you know, was that on the table for you? Or was it just the wider brand piece? We consulted the fans across the board. So we spoke to fan groups. We spoke to communities. We spoke to the backroom staff. We spoke to the company, you know, the pick company that owns Everton. We spoke to players. We spoke to the people who run the brand. We were aware of that lineage. So whenever we do anything which is community-based, we're very sensitive of that relationship. The device we created, the icon, which is on everything and the design system, comes from St Rupert's Tower, which is inside the badge. We didn't need to destroy a badge that's existed for decades and has great importance to people. We created a system that works with that. The same thing with AC Milan. So often in branding, there's this sense that you have to change everything in order to make something fresh. There's a massive cliche in the industry, which everyone goes, "Oh, they've made the logo a San Serif simple logo." That's not how branding works. It's an interconnected set of experiences. The logo is just a sharp end of that spear. It's just to remind you of something. But it's an empty vessel unless it's filled with meaning. So that crest means something to people in Everton. If you track back to that meaning and you make things that come from that lineage of meaning, then they care about it. If you make something random, they don't. So it's just about sensitivity to their lived experience. Thank you. And it had to, of course, be blue. Yes. You're not going to turn it red, are you? No. Has anyone else got a question for Simon? Hello. You talk about the human, don't be negative. I just wanted to do your thoughts on the industry at the moment where you have teams, blood, sweat, tears into a rebrand, transformation, and then social media hits, and hopefully people love it. There's always a chance you don't. Yeah. What do you say to a team saying, you know, look, just, we're trying to create brave, distinctive, relevant work. Yeah. But that sometimes has a backlash in half. What do you say to a team? I'll have to couch my language with this. So there's a number of things that play with that, which is any change people are unsettled by. And within that, the law will always be a visceral minority. So say, for example, you take AC Milan, they had 380 million fans when we started the project. They now have 550 million fans. So that's about 170 million more people that engage with the brand. If 100 people on Twitter go batshit crazy about how terrible their design is, I'd take that every day of the week to get 170 million people. So you have to be aware of whose voice it is and how important it is. You also have to hold your nerve. Change takes time. You can't change a brand and expect it to happen immediately. What you have to do is phase it over time. So we recommend that the change is phased. You don't do instantaneously and you consult people. So we do internal business relationships and then external relationships in that order to make sure everyone's behind it. But you have to trust that the truth will out that the maximum number of people will connect with the brand. It will reach the people that are important. And the whole point with anything is not everybody's going to like everything. So if you're an AC Milan fan, you'll love it. If you're an into Milan fan, you will hate it. So brands will have different relationships with different people. Some brands will have highly monetized relationships and others won't. If you think about someone like, let's say Ferrari, millions of people will wear the cap. Very few people will ever drive a Ferrari and almost nobody owns one. But that brand means something because of those different relationships. So you just have to trust that. And then internally, you have to be hardwired to believe in your work. So if someone says to me, hey, say, I don't like that work, I go fine. Objectively, you know, that's fine. Subjectively, that's fine. You can critique our work. If you want to go on a, you know, one of those popular websites that have forums that want to kind of dig into people's work, that's fine. But we didn't design it for you. We designed it for the audience and creativity is subjective, but the outcome of our work isn't. If the work works, that's what determines it for me. So I think pride in the work, high tolerance for knowing that's going to happen is important. And we talk about as a team that if we believe in it, the client believes it and the people who design and believe in it and the truth without over time, we're willing to wait. Sounds good. Alright, let's leave it there. Thank you Simon so much. That was brilliant. I really enjoyed that. Thank you.