4. Silence

[Music] Hey everybody, welcome to the Fight Hustle and Hurray Podcast. Here we talk about the cultural pervasiveness and problem of hustle and hurry and how as followers of Jesus we can resist them in our daily lives. My name is Jeff Bethke and author living in Maui, Hawaii, and I'm joined by John Mark Comer, a pastor and teacher at Bridgetown Church in Portland, Oregon. Welcome to season one. [Music] Welcome back guys. This is episode four. I'm excited for today's episode because this is the first of what would that be? I went to public school so my math's bad but like what, seven or eight more episodes coming forward on topical nature now of every episode is going to lean into one of these practices that we want to talk about. We want to cultivate that we want you to think about. And today's the first one. Today we're going to talk about silence or silence and solitude is another way you can put it. Even though those are different things we'll get into that in a minute. But John Mark had a good idea to set up these episodes as we go forward. It'd be fun for us to just start with what would we say our definition of those things are and kind of making sure we're understanding what it also isn't. So John Mark, I'd love to hear first. What would you say, how would you kind of define silence and solitude if we do want to talk about both? Yeah well I mean all practices or if you want to call them spiritual discipline or Jeff I think your language is formation. All of which is great. All of the practices of Jesus are based on the life and teachings of Jesus. So when you read the four gospels, one of the first things you notice is that Jesus would oscillate back and forth between time like in what we now call silence and solitude and time with community or other people. Like I think of the iconic line in Luke chapter 5, quote Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed. And that word lonely places in Greek is the word araymas and it's also translated desert or wilderness or lonely place or solitary place or quiet place. It was basically just a place where nobody was around and he was out in his case in nature, in the quiet away from other people. And this practice that you see like all over the life of Jesus, I mean literally from page one in Mark's gospel, you has come to be called silence and solitude and that's kind of you could argue those are two practices but really they go together and silence is just where you quiet noise. And it's not metaphoric as much as it is literal and solitude is where you do alone. And silence and solitude is basically just time alone in the quiet with yourself and with God. So it's not just me time like oh I just need to kind of catch up and like watch from Netflix and be alone for a night and read or whatever full laundry whatever into that's not silence and solitude necessarily. Although you can co opt almost anything but it's time alone in the quiet with yourself and with God that would be my most basic definition. And the tricky thing with more about this later is by quiet we don't just mean external noise like that's the easiest part unless if you have little kids or a rock is you know roommate. It's external noise yes you want to quiet that you want to get somewhere like literal silence does something at a neurobiological level to your body and your capacity to hear the voice of God, which is described as a whisper in the scriptures. But it's also like internal silence and that's what's way more difficult because you know most of us the moment we come to quiet our mind isn't just like in a zen state of just like our mind is all over the place worry anxiety fear anger distraction. And on that TV show the other day you know so it's about learning to quiet not just our external environment outside our body but our internal environment inside our mind in order to be with our self meaning to to actually like feel and think in process where our soul is at and even more so to be with God. Yeah exactly and one way I like to think about it that I would define it as is at least from the spiritual discipline standpoint not just actual you know legal definition of silence it's it's proactive not reactive right there's that there's the volume level of silence of like the actual definition of silence would be more reactive of like you're just in a silent room of a sudden and you can react to that however you want. When I think the silence and solitude as a discipline is proactive in this sense of your intentionally trying to carve seek and form that space to do something with you and God like you said and I love that and I think I love to you define that and so now with that definition aside let's just jump into it one thing I wanted to start with which I think is just a really really fun example that I didn't come across actually to later. After I wrote the book you know you probably know this right this this struggle to like you write a book some stuff you take out some stuff they make you take out but then after you know then you have to finalize it and then you have to put then you want to put stuff back in it's just it's you want it's it's very difficult for it to just be like it's done and I'm happy and yes one of the things was after it was all kind of proofed and done. I was doing some research on NASA and silence and what's really fascinating is NASA astronauts actually have to do a training regiment of specific silence because it's so jarring once they get to space it literally can actually make them go crazy they have to do certain type of regiments for it I don't know exactly how to pronounce it but there's this chamber called like any oh heckic echoic I'm not even try that again but it's a chamber that they basically have to go in the NASA uses that trains them to cope with the complete lack of sound that they can. lack of sound that they can experience because -- Wow. -- so that they don't go crazy. And here's what's -- this is how silent it is, which none of us can actually get to this level of silence, but space is so kind of vacu-moriented. It can get to the silence. It says it's absolute silence. So almost zero decibels. So it's filled. So then you can actually hear the sound of your own body. You can hear your breathing, your heart beating, blood in your veins pumping. You can hear your pulse, you can hear your bones rub against each other when you move. You can hear your skin sliding over your muscles. And you can hear tendons creak and organs churning. And that's usually about the point where people start hearing things that aren't actually there, meaning because it's so dramatic, right? I remember growing up on Star Wars the first time I found out that you can't actually hear explosions in space. And that if you were actually in the middle of a Star Wars battle, it would be perfectly quiet. -- Yes, so bummed. I'm like, wait, what? You wouldn't hear? -- Yeah, it's like not complaining. -- It's like it is dramatic. -- It would just silence. -- Exactly. George Lucas was like, yeah, we don't want to be actually realistic because that wouldn't be that fun on the actual films. But I think what's interesting about, and I want to toss it to you, about even that last paragraph about how you can literally hear yourself, even bones and muscles because it's so silent. -- Wow. -- First makes you realize how non-silent of a space we can actually get to on Earth because of the buzz and the noise. But then too, I think that's an apt metaphor of like, when you go that silent, you can actually hear yourself in a way that you can't hear in the normal noise. So I don't know what would you say about that or how do you kind of think about that in regards to what it really does when you get to that space? -- Yeah, and I love what it said about hearing other voices too, which obviously there's an unhealthy aspect of that, but the healthy aspect is hearing the voice of the Spirit of God. But ironic that you have to get away from noise in order to hear. You get away from all of the input is another way to say it. That's why a lot of people when they teach unsigned solitude actually recommend that you shy away from reading or anything like that. You want to get away from all other input into your mind, any other stimuli, and just allow the Holy Spirit to speak to you through your own soul. You're attempting to hear your own soul and you're attempting to hear the voice of the voice of the Spirit of God cut through all of it. But yeah, it's interesting. They have to prepare people for it. And we have the same experience here when we teach on it or pastor people at our church in two sounds and solitude. Most people's first experience with sounds and solitude is anxiety. And often their next experience is a range of emotions such as depression, anger, insecurity, shame, whatever that they just do everything they can to Medicaid against, the noise, stimuli, busyness, Netflix, whatever. And that is a reality. I was just recently went to a Benedictine monastery outside of town for a couple of days. And it was really interesting just my first day at the monastery. And I am like, this is like a part of my regular life. I do this on a regular basis. I'm an introvert for one. So I love it. This is an easy, this comes naturally to me in my personality. Whereas for a lot of people, it's very counterintuitive. But still that first 24 hours, it was weird. I felt anxious. I felt restless in my body. I felt a little, I felt bored. I could not pay attention very well and it was so weird. Just like all of this stuff that was in me and I'm like, "Man, this is so weird. I love this. I've been looking forward to this for weeks." And here I am. And all I feel is like, I want to go home. I want to go home. I want to turn something, read something. Here's something. It's like you get hurt. She is almost the best word. Yeah. It's like this withdrawal in your nervous system to stimuli. And that's so healthy. And the tragic thing, like the beauty of science and solitude is when you're in that safe place, thing that's down under the surface of your soul comes to the surface. So if that's joy or gratitude or hope or vision for the future, that comes out. If it's anger at your mom or bitterness at your roommate or spouse or fear or anxiety or stress that you carry in your body over something or sadness or grief, all of it comes to the surface, which is why I think so many people avoid this. But the tragic thing is they don't realize that once it comes to the surface, then you're able to look at it like in a kind of third party mindful way, see it almost as an outsider, see your emotions, see your thoughts, your fear, your hope, your desire, your joy, and then hear God's voice over it. And in doing so, you break the power of these emotions and thoughts have over you and they become just emotions and thoughts that you that you set before God and you see with God's eyes, hopefully. And then actually normally you move through those, let's just call them unpleasant emotions. They're not bad emotions, but just the ones that don't feel good. And then you move into, if you stay at it, normally a place of deep peace and compassion and freedom at an emotional level from attachment or whatever you think you need to be happy and joy. So like, there is an emotional process to science and solitude, which is why I think most people don't do it in the first place or they do it, but they kind of have to do it. I mean, they're like, I do science solitude at the coffee shop, listening to music in my headphones while I read a book or whatever, you know, or they do it, but for like 10 minutes, you know, and then they're back to it, whatever. And then hey, anything's better than nothing, but they never do it long enough to let the emotions come up, process them with God, and then move through them to a place of freedom. Yeah, and I, one thing I was thinking when you're talking to is I think this is, if we're honest, where the evangelical tradition has kind of swung and missed, right? You look at the Benedict tradition, you look at the Jesuit tradition, there's some other traditions very much in the global sea church that actually do a really beautiful job of this. And one way, and it's obvious that when you look at them, it's corporate and it's guided. I mean, it's singular, but it's guided on a corporate level. And I think that's where we've kind of missed is we have not guided our people, our tradition, on this space. And so I think first of all, I just want to also let people know, I think that's one thing that we sometimes almost forget is that the evangelical tradition is the only way. When actually this is a discipline that has been cultivated in practice for hundreds and thousands of years in certain other traditions that are much older than ours. But it depends, you know, if we even, if I would even claim or say that word about me or you would, you know, you, but, you know, basically, Western, more Protestant is another way to put the bigger boundary, I'm saying there. So I just think, yeah, that's one thing too is like, I actually encourage people like, if you look up, there's Jesuit, you know, locations all throughout the US and some other ones where you can actually go to a silent retreat. Like these are things, these are things you can actually do. And I would actually encourage people to do that, by the way. First, or if they're thinking about this topic because the guided nature of it, the switched space of it, and the kind of like, someone helping you along the baby steps with those three things like a silent retreat kind of thing. You mean like go on a silent retreat? Yep. Exactly. And I think so. There's two monstries outside of Portland. Both of them offer silent retreats. You can come anytime. Exactly. And it's guided. It's helpful. They guide you along while you also have access to a spiritual director to then also converse with and talk with. I just think, um, sometimes it can be almost intimidating to try to be the like, oh, I'm going to get away by myself for two days, but I don't know how that's going to go. Or we say that's what we're going to do. And then 10 minutes in we go home, right? So when you can actually externally put yourself somewhere else, it just helps. Talk about the, uh, the Dr. King story. I love that story. And I think that, uh, enters the why. Because one thing about this one is why is silent so important. And I think this story actually illustrates that. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's interesting. You said about the Protestant or evangelical tradition versus Catholic or other forms of spirituality. And I absolutely agree. But I think the other factor is some of it's not so much that Protestants don't emphasize it. It's just that anybody for the last 30 years, you know, 50 years as the world is urbanized and then tradition would and 10 years. Yeah. Yeah. With technology. And when I chat to other Catholics, it's not like, oh, we have this down. It's like, oh, we have some few like full-time Jesuit priests who have this down or Benedictine. But we also have phones and it's also tough. Yeah. But it's not like just because people are Catholic, they have this down. You know, so I agree with you, but I think a lot of it has to do with the phone, Q this, you know, because like I think of the tradition I grew up in, which was the evangelical tradition, like it was dead set on the morning quiet time. Like I was, I grew up in that. My parents like was mandatory. You're not a good question. I was like, if you have the quiet time. Yes, you had to wake up in the morning, read the Bible and pray in the quiet alone before I could even eat breakfast or whatever for which I am very grateful. I know you're issues with that at all. And so there was an emphasis for that. No, granted, that's not like silent retreat. That's not Sabbath. That's not days of hearing God's voice. It was, it was what it was, but I'm grateful for what I got. But I think a big part, because that's almost gone in most millennial expressions. Yeah, we've almost swung too far of saying that that's like a Listic or that's ritualistic or that's too cliche and cute or whatever. People talk about time with God or whatever. It's like time without a gen. I'm always with God. And that's just, I think a misunderstanding of what, and there's truth in that, but I think that's a misunderstanding of what it means to be with God. So anyway, all that to say, I just came across this great story about Dr. King from January 27, 1956. So this was like a month after he was elected to the Montgomery Improvement Association. It's in the middle of the bus boycott. And he is getting death threats. He was just jailed for driving 30 miles per hour and a 25 mile per hour zone. And his life is under threat. And he told the story years later in a sermon. And basically said, this is my summary of it. Basically said, I was lying in bed one night. And I was about to like quit. This was just too scary. It was too much of a threat for my family. I didn't think I had the strength to do this work. And I was about to quit. And he sits down in the kitchen by himself. I think if I remember the story, it was late at night. And he just sits there for a moment. And then he said this quote, and it seemed at that moment that I could hear an inner voice saying to me, Martin Luther, stand up for righteousness, stand up for justice, stand up for truth. And low, I will be with you even till the end of the world. And that was the turning point. Basically said, okay, I will do this. I will give myself to it. And then he became who he is. Yeah, all of that. And I was reading Cal Newport was referring to the stories and author I love. And he essentially just you know, brought up the idea, what would have happened if Martin Luther had an iPhone? Like what if he reached for that and said, yeah, what if he's in that moment? And like he's about to quit. It's too hard. And he sits down at the, I mean, what would you do? Sit down at the kitchen table with the moment. I did a Microsoft survey recently that found that 77% of young adults answered yes when asked when nothing is occupying my attention. The first thing I do is reach for my phone. And I think it's the most higher when you're discouraged. Like I know for me, like when I'm just kind of like a little more like discouraged or sad, then I'm like, yeah, just higher. I just like, I need to kind of, I need to not think about this. So I got actually more in those moments. It's just an easy escape right there to whatever it is. And it just got me thinking like, man, what would have happened if he had an iPhone? Like if he had wife, you know, like what if that moment would have never had would have been erased from history? Yes. And never would have happened. What would he have done? And I just wonder how many of those moments, I mean, I'm, I'm 39. So I'm just old enough to remember this thing from the 90s we used to call boredom. And like I heard. I've heard of having, I don't know what it is. Yeah. Yeah. A couple of years are going to be you don't remember. But like I remember you'd be standing in line at a coffee shop and you would just stand there. Yes. You would actually just be standing in line. You'd just be standing in line, not like checking your email and tweeting and looking on Instagram and checking the weather and reading the news and playing candy crush. You'd just be standing in line, maybe even talking to another random person. Or like I remember, you know, on a plain flight, you'd bring books with you. And if you like got through your book too early or whatever, you just like the little thumbs. Yeah. The wind up screens on the planes. I feel like I'm about to die. They don't have a screen on the plane. And back then I was like, hold on, I remember traveling and it was just like no screen like didn't have any built-in screens. Nothing. And you know, my point was all of, and I don't want to romanticize something as a name as boredom. It was a pain in the butt. But all of those moments were little like micro silence and solitude moments. Yes. Little opportunities to come back to my soul and to God. And now pretty much all of those moments are gone. Just swallowed up by the digital carnivore. You know. And so I do, I do think there is something there like and and maybe this is just my lead eight kind of nature coming out. But I do think that one of the main reasons we've lost this discipline is just due to the invasion of technology and the privacy of our everyday life. Yeah. And there was a book I read. I think 2014. So this is like, this is actually it's way worse now. But it was called The End of Absence. You've probably heard of it. And that's that same thing. He makes the whole book's argument is that basically the those those those absent moments, those moments of just micro moments throughout the day. We're actually with the first generation that's not having those. And he just kind of makes this strong. I made of like, what is that actually going to do to us? He goes, we don't know yet. Give it 50 years. But that's actually going to radically transform us that we don't have those moments, right? And I don't think those are like the deep awakening moments you have with those Lord, but what they do, like you said, is they make you comfortable in that space so that you get used to it. The second tear up from that is comfortable, right? And so I think that's really important. And to that point, you know, I've read a couple of people recently, both Christian and I ran a Buddhist think the other day, who are both, and this just seems like common sense. But making a connection between this, you know, death of absence, the death of the quiet moments, the inability, in particular, if you live in an urban or metropolitan setting, which not all of us do, but if you are and you have a phone or you have a life, and the level of outrage and anxiety and hostility in the political, social media, Twitter's fear world. And you know, what happens, you use the word earlier, Jeff, and I loved it, is you have to be proactive, not reactive. So I've been reading a lot lately in the contemplative tradition. And you know, the writers on contemplative prayer and the Christian tradition say that the opposite of a contemplative life is a reactive life, not an active life. Meaning, so the opposite of like science and solid to prayer, abiding, like just resting in God's presence is not out like doing stuff for God or working hard at your job or raising children. The opposite of it is reacting. Meaning you live a reactive life. Like your whole life is just this kind of limbic system got emotional like I'm mad at that. I think that. Talk, talk, talk, noise, noise, noise, reaction, tweet, tweet, tweet, respond, respond, respond. And you don't actually live from this deep place of inner stillness, which cultivates compassion. I think it was Henry now and who said compassion is the fruit of solitude. So often I go into solitude angry at somebody. I rarely come out of solitude with anything but compassion in my heart, at least if I'm there long enough. Because I begin to like my limbic system calms down, I begin to realize that, oh, I'm actually at fault too, not just them. And oh, they actually have something good to say. And oh, but you know what I mean? And like this deep as you tap into like the stillness of the spirit of God that's deep inside us, not just around us, but in us by the spirit, we begin at the same time to tap into the deep compassion of God. So yeah, I mean, I think that we're already seeing one of the main fruits of the death of these moments in small moments and large moments in the anger and outrage of political discourse. And I'm not saying there aren't things worth being angry about, but so much of the tone of everything right now, just this reactive, angry, emotional, non nuanced, non-brational at times like war. And you're like, man, this is not doing good in the world, I don't think. Exactly. And I think it's, yeah, it's not thoughtful, but you become thoughtful and still by those moments and those times. I forget what the, what's the community that wrote the, or was part of some of the Dead Sea Scrolls really early on that kind of retreated? I'm trying to, I'm blanking on their name, but the current community, the current, human ran community or the Essenes. Some people think they were the Essenes. Yeah, I was thinking of the Essenes, but yeah, it's like that's one thing we also have to be careful of too is thinking that I think one, sometimes we can also go the opposite way and think that silence and solitude is a varsity version of Christianity, right? And so I think, and we saw that with them. Where they completely retreated and saw that as kind of better and holier. But what the way I see it is like you have, you have to go there to come back. And I think Jesus shows that you have to go to the lonely place, you have to go to the Arraymos, you have to go into silence and solitude to actually bring that stillness. And then the cool part is you actually bring that silence and solitude in your heart. Like you said, you called it inner stillness, which I love into then culture, into the day to day. And that's really, really important. And I think that's a really helpful way to think about it. And then you get into like, you know, brother Lawrence and the famous practicing of the presence of God where he's talking about that inner stillness when things are chaotic. And so it's kind of, they go hand in hand. But I don't know what you would say to that. And then maybe just end us with too like practical. If someone's kind of hearing this and saying, "Oh, I'm a little overwhelmed. What do I do?" Yeah, I mean, I first of all, I fully agree, you know, the desert fathers and mothers who began to kind of depart from the Roman Empire as it was falling apart and going to the desert to pray. They used to say, "We don't retreat from the world. We retreat for the world." Meaning, we don't go away into silence and solitude just to get away from it all because the world is too scary and injustice is terrible. And so let's just disappear into the desert and pray. They would say, "Actually, we go away for the world." And you know, now and that's this whole thing is like, silence and solitude is not a private therapeutic place with his line. It's the place of conversion. Meaning like, we go, we encounter God, we encounter our soul, the good, the bad, the ugly, our fear, our anxiety, our bitterness, our anger, our identity. Yep, it's all tied up in who we are or what we do or what we have or what other people think of us or what we want. And we process all of that in the safe place of God's love. And then we cultivate this spirit of compassion, wisdom, stillness and love. And then we come back into the world as what Edward Freeman called a non-anxious presence, which is, I honestly don't think I'm that great of a leader, but it's probably the most important leadership book I've ever read. And spiritually and then emotionally as well, human beings are basically spiritual, emotional conduit. That's why there's all sorts of science behind this. But when somebody walks into a room, they bring an emotional timber into that room. So if somebody comes into the room and they're crying, the whole room changes. Like, oh, we attuned to that motion. If somebody comes in and they're like, type 7 on the end of the ground, like, hey guys, what's up? You know what I mean? Here's a whatever. And like the hard one goes up. Yeah, if somebody comes in angry or critical, everybody like gets on edge and sensitive, you know? So like we're emotional and spiritual conduits everywhere we go, we create an atmosphere. And you know, Freeman said that leaders are those that create an atmosphere not of anxiety or anger, but an atmosphere of a non-anxious presence. So they differentiate from other people and they set the temperature of a room or a family or a corporation. He did all this study on family systems theory and basically said, this is true like in a family, if you're a parent or even a child, it just has true in like a, you know, hundreds of thousands of international like corporation. Like it's just uncanny the way systems theories work. So all that to say, I think that we retreat from the world, but for the world and the hope is that we come out of science and solitude and we offer to the best of our human imperfectibility a non-anxious presence of wisdom and love and compassion and Christ's likeness to the world, you know? And as far as like how to begin, first off, I would just say this, start where you're at not where you should be. And that is a general rule for all practices, all spiritual disciplines. So if right now you don't have any time alone, don't like go to a monastery tomorrow. I mean, you can, but and do like a week silent for minutes tomorrow. Yeah. No. I mean, I would just start in the morning with as much time as you're up for it. So if that's 10 minutes, five minute, okay, start there. And I think as a general rule, the morning is the best time for daily. Sabeth is the best time for weekly. And then if once a month, you can carve out a little bit more time. If that's a full day at a monastery, wonderful. If that's like three hours on a Sunday afternoon after church, I go to a park by myself. Great. Whatever you can do, dream would be four to six hours once a month as well. And but just start where you're at. If you can get up in the morning, if at all possible, do this before you turn on your phone, talk to other people or receive any other inputs. So if there's a way to get up, just you, maybe your Bible, maybe your coffee and that's about it. Before you turn on your phone, before you check your email, before you talk to whoever, for some people, this is not feasible with kids. So absolutely adapt this to your stage of life. But if there's any way, just get up. And if it's 10 minutes, if it's 15 minutes, wonderful, if it's an hour, fantastic, and just sit in the quiet before God. And then I would recommend that you just start with something to kind of anchor your mind in God. So for me, I start with a psalm. You might want to start with a list of gratitude or a liturgical prayer or a Jesuit, you know, reading for the day, the Jesuits put out great daily prayer things or whatever it is for you. You might want to start with a visual image or some people use a candle, just something to help your mind transition to practicing the presence of God. And it's that simple. Start where you're at. Really small. I would recommend the morning, but whenever you want and use some kind of little transitional object, word, phrase, pome, to just begin to settle. And then just don't feel like the nice thing about science and solitude is you can't do it well or bad. You don't, it's just, you either show up or you don't. Success is just you show up. That's exactly how you find successes. I was just there, you know, and then just give yourself a ton of grace. If your mind is all over the place, it's a ton of grace. And there's more. I have practiced, I have a little workbook. I put together with some other practices. But it's a lot more that could be said, but that's where I'd recommend you start. Yeah, and well, let's end with this guys. Remember, we'll go and come full circle. Remember, it's a practice, right? The astronauts have to actually practice for it before they go to space. And I think at some level, it's like that with us. It's a practice. It's a discipline. Lean into it. And like a muscle, it'll get slowly bigger and bigger and stronger and stronger. Little by little each time. So we love you guys and we'll see you next week. [Music]