Show 386. George Finch

[Music] Hello and welcome to the Political Party. Today's guest is George Finch, the 19-year-old leader of Warwickshire County Council, the reform leader of Warwickshire County Council. And this is a fascinating conversation. First, really, just about, not just what it's like to run a council at that age, but we get onto that. But just about the reality of who is responsible in local government and what support your politicians have. Now, I work in local government and I was a political assistant in local government. So, I totally understand the need for. I don't want to step on what we're about to talk about. But it's really interesting hearing someone from a different political tradition, describe just the problems in local government that I also experienced. So, there's just a really interesting stuff there. Also, he's 19. He doesn't feel it. And I remember at the time him getting elected becoming leader at 18 and just thinking, "Oh, my word." You can see why he's become leader. And in a way, the age thing slightly melts away because. As you know, having accounts people in local and national politics. Some people are either impressive or not impressive regardless of how old they are. And George, he's someone who is just intensely political. And I think that really comes across. Even though his and my politics are different, he has a sort of drive for politics. And for local democracy that I think people from all political parties are really identified with. We got onto more ideological stuff. We talked about Robert Jenrick. We talk about reform and their future direction. And, effectively, how right wing they are and how worried people should be. But the initial chat is effectively about how politics works. And I think it's really interesting. I think he's been really perceptive really early on about that and about what leaders need and about what politicians need. So, it's just really interesting and really enjoyable talking to him about his experience of being a young politician, being a young reform politician. But on top of that, being the leader of a county council and all the things that entails. But also what his politics really are underneath all that. So this is multi faceted. And it flew by. Just to let you know the political party returns to the stage on Monday the 26th of January. In just a few days time, I cannot announce who the guest is. There's only a handful of tickets left. Do not miss out. My guests after that are sensational. The 16th of February, David Miliband, the man who could have been Prime Minister. On the 9th of March, my guest is Zach Polanski on the 30th of March. My guest is Lisa Nandy. More guest to be announced. To get to all those at matfall.com. And my tour is on sale now and starts in a few days. 28th of January at the Birmingham Glee. Then on to Dawking Halls on the 29th. Northampton, Royalland, Derngate on the 30th. Then the Lancaster Grand on the 5th of February. Brighton on the 6th. Tombridge was on the 12th. London Bloomsbury on Valentine's Day. And again in April. But I'm going all over the country, Gilford, Shrewsbury, the Isle of White, Liverpool, Plymouth, Annick, just wherever you live, I'm coming to you. Including the Warwick Art Centre. If you're listening in Warwickshire, which you may well be given that George is today's guest. So I'm going all over the UK. Matford.com for all your ticketing needs to the political party in the West End and to my stand-up tour, defying calamity. And but enough of the self promotion. Let's catch up with the 19 year old reform leader of Warwickshire County Council. George Finch. George, what a year you've had. You're still in your teens and you're now entering your second calendar year as leader of a county council. What's it been like so far? I remember when I was elected back in May, having the biggest majority of a reform councillor. And going from, you know, not knowing much about how the council runs. Obviously I was the chairman of the association. So I had to make sure everybody was prepared for when they were councillors. But there was a lot that we didn't know. And then when we got in, it was first at school. Everybody, no matter the age. And I thought, I said, I'm a god. We really need to get our feet into the table. And so we got the most experienced people we could get as councillors into cabinet. Straight away. I've become deputy leader of the council and children and families portfolio. So we had to fill all the committees, all cabinet posts. And that was hard for some people because they had jobs, families, more videos. I get it. It isn't easy, especially now in this day and age. You've got younger councillors and I've got families, they're not just old polydoddies, they're with grey hair, they're retired. These people have got families, lives, things that could go pop if they don't get the income or whatever. And we had to make sure that we made that balance right for everybody. So then I was kind of in the go-shading with the Conservatives to get us into administration. Get everybody in those positions. And it was quite tough for the first few weeks, especially for me, because, you know, I was deputy. And then 40 days later, I become leader of the council. But those 41 days as deputy gave me the experience, you know, with a baptism of fire for myself. So being thrown into being leader, there wasn't much difference in me being deputy and being leader. So when I become leader, it was very, very natural to them to start just get on with it. There was no annotation, there was no waiting around, the officers, it was just straight away, get in, get the job done. It was tough, but now I've been in it, getting in here a year now, getting on, been in it a year now. The things I look back on is that when we take control of councils in the future, there's a lot to learn. There's a lot for them to kind of do straight away what we didn't do. There's so much that I can now give to councils across the country with their experience. There's so much I can give them, which will be able to, you know, don't hit the potholes that we do when we drive across the road. And what would they be? What would you say other things that people should do that maybe you didn't, and likewise do the way around, maybe things you did that people should avoid? I think one of the biggest things that I was screaming about from day one, which not many people saw as a huge issue, straight away they thought, "Let's fix potholes, let's fix our dogs, oh, you're good." And I said, "Don't get all that for the first few months. You have to change the attitude on this council." Because, you know, you'll go into a 42 strong administration with the Conservatives, massive majority. And they had, after the election, like that, nine councillors, the number of 42 to nine, disastrous day for the Conservatives. And, straight away, we were held into an administration, held into running the council that would previously run by the Conservatives. So we have to change not just the wallpaper, but the entire foundations of which the council's built upon. And that is hard. You know, it takes some hard decisions, hard discussions, and you will fall out with people. But that is leadership. And what is that then? Is that about changing staff, about effectively sacking council officers, or is it about giving the new priorities what's actually mean? And so, straight away, of course, we were at 5,000 strong council, 5,000 staff. I believe there is going to be a change around in our structure over the next year. That's one thing that we are doing next year. I don't believe a company that is going to be in 350 million per deficit by 2028 should have 5,000 staff. No private company would allow that to happen. But not just about sacking staff, because you have to go around things in a professional way. You can't just say, you're gone, you're gone, you're gone. So what you have to do is start to get to know these people, because they ran the council before, not the concern, except it was an officer led council before. It was not the politicians in charge. Now it is. And that, honestly, that was massive for us. It felt as though you, you, you unlock the door and there was endless possibilities. Once you gave full control. Yeah, you can pay the politics and get control control of the administration. But you're not in charge from that point on. You have to change away. It's been said. It was a collaboration of the flag policy that allowed then the reform administration and the led by myself to finally, it was not about the flags. It was a, for myself, a non-elected bureaucrat was telling me no. And I thought, well, no, the power is, is, is it my heart as leader of the council that is actually my building, not yours. I am the face of the organization. I do, I am running the organization. So let me, but what flag I want up. And no, no, you can't do that. You will tend to many people. I'm gonna be honest, there's only three flags that should identify everybody in the county. The Union flag, the St. George's flag, and the county flag. It was just that instant dismissal of no arm in chart. And it threw me on. I'm like, wow. This is the power of the state. This is the power of the establishment that nobody understands. I should write a book on it, really. But it is interesting because this is effectively a constitutional issue. You know, you have council officers, effectively the civil service in local government. And I've worked in local government. And in areas, I'm sort of open to whether it's good or bad. But effectively what happens is if the politicians aren't muscular enough, that the council officers will effectively just run the thing. Now, obviously you need that institutional knowledge. You need the people who've actually delivered services in the building. They bring value. But you're right, there can be an issue with effectively who makes those sorts of decisions? Who should it be? And I think the public would want it to be the politicians. It's what we've seen for too long. But I was on the train yesterday coming from Cheshire. And I said on the phone, I hate it weak men and women that are in leadership that are not have the ability to stand up for themselves. And they just acquiesce. You know, I've said many times in the council chamber there's three biggest things for me to get everything in the world, honesty, integrity and transparency. If you don't have those two, you might as well just give up everything. So those are the three things that I brought in straight away into the council. And it did take a long time really to kind of push the civil service into their lanes. Look, don't get me wrong. There's some great staff and I'll always back up to the hills and defend them no matter what. But what it was for me was that you had weak politicians in the past that did not take the control of the council in the sense that they did not make those decisions. It was an officer led council. And we come in and we heard kind of spies in the conservative telling us where to look. And that was one of the main things they said, take control. And if that means, you know, so to speak, boot on neck type policies and near squeeze, squeeze, squeeze and they will eventually pop because they have no constitutional remit to do that. They're just praying that we are not even often to just follow the office's opinion. Now I will always listen to their opinion, but whether that opinion holds up is a different worry. I was on an event yesterday in Cheshire and I was speaking to people. And one of the main things I said, you know, when reform gets into government, the first 200 days, what is that going to look like? And I said, well, forget massive national policy for just a minute. We have to take control of that government and the thing, oh yeah, but we'll have a majority. It's that it does not mean you're in control. And I've learned so much in this role. And that's kind of my mission now is to go across the country speaking to local government councillors, speaking to MPs and saying, you know you're not in control with, you're not in control when you get in control. It's not you, it's the blob. And if you want, if you want an easy life as a councillor, that's what it used to be years ago. If you want an easy life, if you want no change, sit on your hands, let the office's run it. If you want massive, huge seismic change, you have to put a little bit of the working. You're not going to get huge change if you don't put any working. So I've been working nine months nonstop, no breaks. And to be fair, I want to come on out a week up at Christmas and ill straight away. Well, that sticks to the adrenaline goes. Exactly. That's the problem. That's why you've got to get a good balance. I mean, obviously boots on neck is quite a violent way of putting it. I mean, I'm sure you're using persuasion as well. Hopefully there are people inside the building that whatever their political allegiance can be persuaded to kind of work with the grain of what the public have voted for. But equally, you know, they are an important check and balance on politicians. There are certain things that perhaps you shouldn't be able to do. There are things that will be on your remit, beyond the competency the council has in the constitution that you will need council officers to say, actually local government can't do that. Yeah, exactly that. And like I said, you know, we've got some really, really good officers that really, you know, when we give them some innovative ideas, they actually then add on that's what I want. And it goes back to the analogy we're talking about Robert Jenric in defecci and that I want people that can add to my team. Yes, there are some people, some officers that don't think we should be in power and that we're terrible people. And there's always persuasion. You have to go into a room and persuade them first. You know, technically you're trying to sell them an idea. And they're going to sell all this bureaucratic nonsense, the papers, they're all maybe not this, maybe next year, maybe you know, all these suggestions going to know. And then that's where you have to lay down the law, lay down the fact you are in charge and lay down a little bit of a boot on neck type thing. Actually, thank you, advice. But I am now instructing you to go up and do what I say. I've heard it. I've listened to your opinions, but I'm sorry. I don't believe the voters want that. They were saying to me about when we got rid of the booking system at a local tip and they went, oh no, people ain't going to like that. And I said, trust me, big of the counsellor in living in that area. They wouldn't get rid of the booking system. It was brought in during COVID. They have worked then. What was happening? You had old people that couldn't use phones that had to book into the tip. But then wouldn't be checked and checked in at the tip. So I went, just get rid of it. It's easy. Non-essential bureaucratic mess. And this all about that people might want it. I said, no. Some people are going to comment online and be, keep on worried. I said, but the people at the end of the day, want change. So listen to me, it's getting done. And that took a while. But we got that over the line in the end. And it did take some difficult conversations. But I think I'm the boss of difficult conversations in reform. And I think I've been having so many opportunities. Well, what's really interesting about this is there'll be people listening to this. I know that won't show your politics, that may be horrifying thing. Oh, my God. You know, these radical right wingers are coming in. But the point actually is about politics and who it serves. And also who is accountable is elected representatives. Carry the can for the decisions often that officers make for the situations that they inherit. And actually, the point you're making about-- who effectively has primacy here-- is it the people that are elected by the public that then are voted out often? Because the public don't like what the council is doing or not doing. You know, I think it's really important lessening. Obviously, there'll be certain things that you can't and shouldn't do. But I think it's-- it was something that for me when I worked in local government is you do need people who are elected to be able to get on and deliver what the public have just voted for. And obviously, there'll be things where it's not appropriate or whatever. And that's part of democracy. But on the whole, I think you're right. I think you will count-- you're the one who's-- it's your name over the door. It's your face on the posters. And if you don't deliver stuff, the council officers will carry on working there. You'll get to do that now. That's what I've said whilst negotiating the budget, is that you're the ones that are going to stay on with a lovely pension, lovely pay, lovely job for the rest of your lives. And we're going to be the ones that kicked out. So that's one of the biggest things that we've had to push in is that-- and this is what frustrates me so much about canceling elections is that when you do those things, you allow that virus to spread in local government. I just cancel it. Where's the democratic elected representatives? Why do they want to cancel it? Who's actually in charge here? It's like they're just voting because the leader of Rugby Borough Council, who is Labour, who is up for election this year, who will lose his seat, has just canceled elections. Do you think there's a conflict of interest? Yeah. That's what I'm telling the public. Forget that I'm reformed for a second. And I do put that quite well. I do put that across quite well. Forget my political affiliation is that this is a bigger issue that's going to hurt every political party. And what I've noticed is that across the balance, across the country, there are some great live-down councils that do run it through counselors, not offices, great conservatives. They're all across the board. And reforms hitting that door, and we're getting pushed back because we do. And that's where you have to go. We are new, but we know what we're going to need for. And that's why I'm pushing it out there. We have to slam through that door, smash through, and see the lights at the end of the tunnel and go, right, here's us we're in charge. It's hard, but that's a different thing. And was this your view prior to the election? Is this something you've learned through experience? And have you had, I know, this sort of controversy that you hired some sort of expensive advisors after the election. But do reform help you with this sort of thing? Or is this something that you purely sort of picked up yourself? So obviously, when we got elected, we were new councils. It didn't know how it was run. But I've worked with my dad working with his company. So I kind of understood how things need to be run efficiently. But also companies that. He ran a carpentry company years ago and obviously he had a bunch of guys working for him. But when you need to order materials and so on, you have to make sure one they're efficient and two that it'll be done on time and time equals money in my sense. So I thought, well, how can we run this council with 5,000 staff running a lot? I thought, no, it's what it means to change. So when it comes to head office, I could always pick up the phone to know if there's ever a massive scandal. If so, the county council has blew up. I'll phone it to just to tell him. But I tend to phone head office just to communicate to them about what we're doing. They know that what we're doing is great success. So no, it's right that they don't get involved locally in the sense of how we run our council. We are the elected leader. That's democratisation. But as to the election, as to become leader, I thought that this council is not, you know, this council is opposite the lead. I thought, how do we get reformed the administration in charge? And that's why I brought in the political assistant. And I'll be honest, it is really well spent because what that's meant for us is it's created a bubble around, yeah, and the chief executive sold it quite well because all they didn't want it. It's sold it quite well for us. She said, it'll create an island around the administration. Don't do it. That's exactly what we want. We don't want people coming into our team, our close-knit bubble trying to pick it up one by one officers, get their claws in. We want reformed ideas. We want to then push that out to the council. And that's why I brought them in. And it's done exactly that. It's created an island. And to be fair, the council have kind of adapted to the way we're running it now. They are coming on board, which is great to see. I commend I think everyone does a great job on this council. There are a few that obviously I can do a question, but that's life. You always get those kind of people. But when we got in and I brought that particular system in, there was a lot of headlines that went, "Joy, you're spending 190 grand on three political assistants." I went, "It's not the 190. It's 160. And it's not three for me. It's one for me. One for conservatives. A month of the Lib Dems." And actually, the Lib Dems voted against it. Yet they still employed one. So they didn't have political assistants at the council before that? No, you can't have a lot of political, a lot of councils. And this is the point that the officer led do not have political assistants. Because they know obviously, yes, they do a lot of vampire and throw austerity. That's when it started to sink in, you know, 2010. And the officers, honestly, it now's looking back. Look at what's happening now. You can see the journey, wow, the officers have grabbed and grabbed power over the last decade. You can see it. [Music] Obviously, the issue for you was that reforms saying, "We're going to come in and cut money and then you spend money on advice." So it looks like hypocrisy, but I think for anyone who's not working local government, the idea that you would allow a political group to not have just one political advisor, I think he's absolutely bonkers. You know, you would not accept that in Parliament. And actually, the public, the public can never be on the side of political advisors really when you break it down like this. But you need someone there to just give some political advice who's not elected, but shares your politics and has political experience to help the council run, like the taking care of politics is in our interest. Of all of our interests, regardless of what party we support. And it's not just about, as you say, you having the political support, but the major groups on that authority having just one political advisor who does, I mean, it's like it's the most basic requirement that any political group on a local authority with a minimum amount of elected members should have. And it's in politics and local government and government's interests to have those people there. You didn't have any before that? No, we didn't. Well, we've never had. We had back in the Nazis, advisors to the political groups. Now that is different to a political assistant. The advisor to the political groups is an officer of the council that says, "Hello, I'm not political, but if you need anything, just shall." Great. I say, "More bureaucracy, great slowness, waste of money. I then bring in the political assistant to a space-based path." You know, it's on the corner. And when the officer that trying to sink their floors in, our officer goes, "No, this is reform policy." But we might need the climate change team. We might need to do something about flooding. Yes, we'll put money more in flooding, but we don't need people telling us that the whole country is going to burn. And that's what the political assistant's done is come in. I'm in a bus in a sense. I tell him what to do. And he goes on to be cracking. And I think that's what people, I'd probably need to get out there and say, "It is well worth it." And I've been saying to all reform leaders, get one. Because if you're a leader, be able to keep the team under the reform political notions, you know that when you get into local government, they will try and get you and persuade you elsewhere. I think every party, you know, in control, an opposition needs a political assistant. And that is that for the good political running of the council. And, you know, it's not about whether they're reform or labor or whatever. Anyone running a council and anyone on the opposition requires that political advice. Because you're right. Otherwise, you get sucked into the drift of a local authority that will have its own priorities. Not always wrong or bad or anything like that. It's just that the politicians are the one accountable for this. So they should be getting their own political advice to help. So obviously the reason why you got so much attention when you became deputy leader and then leader was your age. You're 18 at the time. And people, I mean, how did that feel for you to be thrust into the national spotlight at that age? I'm 19 now, so I'm getting old. But I was already in the news because I was the youngest deputy leader of accounts or ever. He cannot be beat. And I knew that obviously the job needs to be done. So when I was held into the spotlight, it was just, I know it's really boring to say, but it was just natural. It was like, yep, of course, I'm in charge now. There's going to be more people coming on board, more people trying to get in, more people wanting to attack us and all this throwing stuff at us. But it was simple. You know, age is irrelevant. There's a good saying that one of my counsel assesses me and he says, I would not trust some 19 year olds to tie my shoelaces. But there's 19 year olds that die in the field of battle. Fly, eyes of pilot planes and lead councils. And George, you were one of those 19 year olds. Yeah, there's lots of like 60 year olds I wouldn't trust to tie my shoelaces. Not incompetent, isn't like determined by age. I guess I meant more just for you that you're young and yet you seem sort of so mature about the pressures of politics. Where does that come from? I've had this conversation with many people go, how do you do it? And I've come from a family where you have to contribute. You have to get involved. And the family where the ones with the broader shoulders are more of the weight. So I've gone into it thinking, I don't have a future in this country. If I don't get involved, what is the point? I'll just, my future will be nothing. So I got involved and straight away, I'm not going to be a person where I have to. I couldn't, I couldn't acquiesce and I couldn't let them take control. I couldn't let reform fail in that sense. So I had to stand up and yes, it was hard. It was, I had people in my own group saying maybe lay off for a few months, maybe just keep quiet and just slowly, slowly catch a monkey type thing. You can't run it like that. Where did you get that from then? What is it about your upbringing or your life that has that perspective, that young? I've got two disabled sisters that I've seen, the NHS completely fail. And as we do this interview, my younger sisters in hospital at the moment, I'm going to see it today. But it's just seeing that whole mess, the bureaucratic system of people trying to get help or people in my town, trying to get a future and surviving, not living, not experiencing, surviving. And that's what did it for me. I couldn't stand and watch people in my town, my family, same people, be affected by this. I had to stand up. I couldn't do it anyway. And it wasn't just because your Nigel's great, you know, don't get me wrong. But it wasn't just because of that. There's some policies in reform, you know, I don't always agree with. but that's politics, but reform takes most of my boxes and it's got a clear message that this country needs change, a significant reform. And that's where I thought I can't stand idly by and let my town and my family as well just live through the mess that this government's allowed us to get into. I've gone involved and I have that kind of I get into the council and it's a personal thing for me, it's personal, solely personal. When you say it's personal because you're the leader or because of the experience you've had with your family? It's a personal thing, not not because I'm leader and I've got skin in the game and I'm trying to defend my position. It's personal because family is going to affect it by the council's day on day. Families get hurt by councils across the country, they get hurt by government and yes people come to me and say, "Oh maybe you need to do this, maybe you need to do that." And I listen and when I go around the town people now have got a positive vibe about the council that there's my councilor, I know my councilor, he's in the pub, he's going around the town, he's being seen and people now have a positive attitude about the council but it is solely personal because I cannot, if I would not be doing much I would have failed as a person, as a councilor, as a politician of a human. If in the next, you know, I've been there nine, nine, ten months now, I would have failed if I have not changed a single thing and the attitude of the council is why I have changed and that has been harder than putting in some possible policy. I've had to change the entire direction. A big freight ship is hard to turn around, it takes time, you just turn a 90 degree straight away, it takes time and I've done it a lot quicker, a lot harder than people realise and that is meaning that we are, the people are in charge for once in their lives and that's what I can say, I'm going to the street, you're in charge, I'm like, you're in charge, you're in charge, tell me what you want to do and I'll do as much as I can, and they feel that energy and maybe it's because I'm young, they go, you're bouncing off walls this guy, it's coffee as he had, but I don't have time to waste because it's my future on the line. Yeah, a lot of these council are the 50, 60 days and they've lived, I haven't had that chance because I wouldn't have a future if the way it's ran is the same, so I have to change. Because a lot of people would hear that and that could easily, you know, you're upbringing, self-employed dad, two disabled siblings, growing up in the East Mids, you know, you could easily have gone lay by, you could have easily have said, "Look, I've experienced very early, how unfair the world is, I totally understand that people who need help need the state to be there for them, you've gone the other way, you were conservative and then reform." I mean, do you think that reforms agenda, which is effectively sort of tax cuts and cut the state back, would benefit people like your sisters? Yeah, I think the system so unfair at the moment, like the send system, the home school transport system is so wrong because they've allowed the state to become inflated, they've allowed the bureaucracy to sink in the waste of time, which is money. That hurts families, you know, I've got a young mother on the phone just before Christmas, just before Christmas day, when the council shuts up sharp and everything. She got a phone call and they just tell me they changed my son's DHCP. I said, "Right before Christmas, why then do you want to enjoy your Christmas?" And they give you a terrible phone call and it's those type of situations that make me think, "Well, actually no, the people want lower taxes, lower spending, more efficient spending, then you have to go with reform." And so then how do you fund the services that people like your sisters need if there's less money? You make sure that that money is there for the most vulnerable children, you don't just give it to everybody, a lot of home school transport, right, 50 million a year we spend, 50 million on 10,000 children, 7,500 of those kids, you know, don't have any needs and all of the needs. This is nationally or this is. No, what are we chair? Okay. So they spend 50 million a year taking kids to a from school, 7,500 able to walk, able to get there, the families should get them there, should parental responsibility. That's 18 million, 2,500 kids have got said needs, disabilities, that's obviously the rest. So that's about 30 million. Aaron, we are making sure that we can reduce that bill, but while better mapping, you know, not just taxes, buses, 200 companies doing home school transport, come on, delete to be 200. This has been pressurised. The people have said, "Look, you're going to make it harder for disabled kids to get to school." This is the thing, it's been put made into a political football and it's just squastled. I would never take away home school transport from disabled children, never. That would go against my whole family. Why would I do that? And then people were attacking me for having no, no. It should be parental responsibility. I have to go to school and I have to get on the train and go to a different town, walk, miles to get to school. I didn't get to sit, we didn't get a single penny from the state and we weren't all that family. So I think. Only people will agree with you and they will agree with parental responsibility, they will also know. And I grew up around a lot of people like this and I'm sure you did. Where actually the parents are going to let those children down and doesn't then the local authority or the state or whoever have a responsibility to the child to then not effectively allow their fecalous parents to ruin their education. That is the hard truth, is that you've got kids, they're six, seven, that can use a brand new mobile phone, brand new iPhone but can't walk across the road. They can't use the iPhone for properly, they can't communicate. How can they have a brand new iPhone and use that properly? It's the parents that are failing these children. And yes, I totally get your point. In countless mistakes where I was brought up, you had some bad parents that didn't care and that's where the state should support and be that blanket. But you have to have that tough decision and tough discussion. You've got parents that really, you know, are spending £200 a week on weed or drugs or alcohol or cigarettes. My dad, you know what he did, we were struggling, he didn't go to the pool, he didn't smoke, he spent that money on the kids every penny went on us as children and maybe that's why we think the way we do because my parents have sacrificed so much, so much to get us where we are. We didn't go to private school and that's what I think, no, that should be the model family. Parents, who's new, have has got the wider shoulders, you know, carry more of the way and I will always repay my family because that's what creates a strong united force, family. And that's where reform comes with family community country. That sold it for me on that day when they announced those three words. It hit me, it really did because if your family is strong and you stick together as a team, that bond isn't breakable. But what about where the family isn't? And that's not the child's fault is having a way with parent or whatever, you know, however you would imagine. I believe the state should be there to support those children and I always will be. That's why I made sure that with the home school transport reforms is that we are not hurting those type of children. And you know, for me, what I see is you've got two rangeovers on the drive, you have three skiing holidays a year, you allow the taxpayers to pay for home school transport, maybe sell one of your cars, maybe don't go on holiday, maybe don't live down south in Stratford and buy a council house in the north of the county that's cheaper. So you've got more money in the bank to pay for home school transport. That's what my parents did. It's priority, live within your means. So this is more about sort of upper working lower middle families that catch you can afford this stuff. This isn't about kind of, it's not about families like mine because I get the pinch. I've felt it myself. Yes, I still think that working class families have got the grit to take their kids to school. I always will think that and I think that everybody, if they have children, their sole priority should be on their children. So getting them to school is the first thing on that list at the morning. That, look, my mom, right, is playing in simple example. My mom worked late, she worked early in the morning, she got up at 6, worked through the day and she could then pick us up in the afternoon. She managed her time scale around the kids and that means we had less money. But when kids get to 12, 13, 14, they can start to warm, they're growing up now. And then when my mom wanted to change professions from being a factory worker, she worked then in the day, took the kids to pick the kids up from school and then worked at night in the college to get herself educated to then work as a teacher and a system. They started working with disabled kids. That's progression. That's alarm clock Britain. My story, my family's story should be the story of Britain. That is what it's about. Families that have got disabilities that still thrive, that don't just take the state for granted that do genuinely, if we cripple ourselves. to get a nice house, a nice future. And we still don't have broad holidays every year. We don't have that still. We try to have one this year. And I'll contribute to that. But it's so hard with the cost of living. The shopping's 200 pound a week for a family of four. It's disgusting. And that's where we need to change the way everything's done. We need to inject a little bit of hope back into people's lives. And I know, people may disagree with me in my own party about it, but I will never change my views. Because then if you start to change your views, you just become a mouthpiece on television. And I might as well just give up. And what about your family's politics, then? Do they share your soul to this old George with a bit too right wing for us, you know? Yo, what? My family are all reformed. My grandparents, aunties, uncles, even the small cousins that can't vote, love it. And they go into school saying that George has an hour PowerPoint today about the news. And it's lovely to see. It gets kids thinking actually about what they can do at that age, which is really, really important. There are from really smart, 16, 17, 18, 19 year olds that can do so much. And that's what's important. So when I become a reform politician, my family were all with it. Because they, like I said, my family's experience is what my auntie deals with, my darling granddaughter deal with. She's my council house. We all go there at Christmas. We have a great time at the, we don't have much. Yeah, it's not about what's under the tree at Christmas. It's about through the round it is. That's my kind of thought process. So when I said-- What were they before reform then? Because reform's not been around that much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the thing. My family were labor. Strong labor. It's a strong labor town. And ex-colmining town. And it's because the labor parties meant to be there for all of those people that I was talking about. All families like me. And they-- and they're traitors to those type of people. They've let us feel that there's a safety net. And they've broken that contract of the people. So we-- What point did that relationship with Labour break down at? What point did your family stop being Labour? I think they believe Jeremy Corbyn's politics is way too over the top. They thought that we need-- we do need support for the poor people. We need that kind of safety net. But I think what I've managed to do over the last few months I've been a counsellor is get those Labour voters that have come from our families like mine. And they're now gone, well, no, it should be parental responsible. Because if you start spending more, more money goes on to waste. And it doesn't go on to those people that actually do need it. But the change come down to-- I think it was the Brexit referendum. I think that did it for most people. And it did it for my family. Do you want to hold your politician to account? Do you want to hold your MP to account? Because he's going down to London and saying, it's all-- it's all your ups fault. Well, let's make sure it's our fault. Let's take accountability for once. That was my message. That's what my family's message was. To hold our politicians to account. And guess what? They're still not doing that. They're blaming other things. And how do people feel that Brexit's going? They believe it's completely failed. And so do I. We have got some Brexit freedom. But we have not been-- we have not exercised our whole potential. And that's my worry with this government. And they're trying to stop that. And that's where I think that when reform gets in, our potential will truly be-- will be seen and felt across the country. Our Brexit potential. Just on the current government, then, immigration figures have plummeted the last-- the last record. I mean, it seems to have taken everyone by surprise how effectively Keir's time has been able to cut immigration, the scale of it. But do you think that would sort of-- did the next election help Labour? Do you know if Labour can stand in areas like yours and say, look, we've cut immigration more than any other government in history. Is that enough to save Labour's reputation? It's not enough. It's the rhetoric that the Labour government have been using for so long is that, yes, the statistics may have gone down. And that's a sticking plus to policy that is. It will grow. And that's-- Some people say, well, Shaman and Mammu talk's really tough. And Keir's time is really tough. And now they're delivering it. Isn't that a kind of threat to reform? No, not so. She talks talk. It sounds like she's going to join reform. Maybe she's the Labour defector. Man, that would be a big old story. Yeah, it's going to be a death actually. But no, it's all talk. But they are delivering as well, aren't they? Because they're cutting their numbers, aren't they talking about it? Then you think, well, actually, there must be people in reform that go, hang on a minute. This could be a bit of an issue for them. People in reform don't look at Labour and go, well, there we go, they've done it. I've seen the statistics. They are delivering. But it's a sticking plus to policy. It's not something that's dealing with the root cause. And that's my problem with it. Is that, yeah, they may be decreasing. But they'll come back up when you're weakist or when you want to start appeasing the lefty. What they've done is they just cut off the woe glibrels out of Labour. Let them sink to the greens. To think that they can get the reform vote through. That worked. Not worked. A single bit. You can see the polling across the country. Labour's third place, fourth place, in some places. Greens are rising. It's because that left vote has been cut off and severed from the Labour party. They've gone to the Greens. That's why the Greens are going on. Labour, they can talk the talk. They've had how many U-turns have they done in the last year? They've only been here a year and a bit. Come on. You know, it's not as a torres where they have 14 years. I get they dated U-turns. I get that. That 14 years, the probability will be higher. A year and a bit. Come on. You can't take the people for a ride like that. We should have that conservatism that is a lower tax, lower spending, get out of the people's way, get out of business's way. Like I say about social services in Warwickshire. This should be an arm's length where you can see them and you can get them if you need support. But they're not that entrenched in your life that you think they're watching what you do. It's finding that balance because people don't like the social services. You have to make an arm's length. We will restore faith in Warwickshire social services. That does mean we have to accept that the way we've been doing it hasn't been perfect. That doesn't mean we should sack people or destroy people's reputations. That just means we're saying to the people we hear you. I was on the doorstep. They were selling me. Whoever was talking about social services, it was not a good time. I said, "Well, you can't have that." So let's change it. So that's how I've started to create a plan. It can't just be done overnight. I can't just go in bank, let's change social services. I'm creating a plan for the people that restore faith in social services. And I think when that comes out, it will be a huge day for Warwickshire because it's about that connectivity with the people. Being seen with them, but where you don't have, you're not forced to get involved. It's that choice of a person which I think is what we need. We shouldn't force them into doing what we want. We're in a state you've listened to us. Where wise, no, you're wise. You know your children better. You know, we're talking about social media and the effects that I've had on kids. And I said, "I agree, it's terrible." But it should be the state to tell you what to do. It should be parents. Don't give the kid an eye-pan at 6. At the table, thumbs down, eye-pads down, have a lunch with your family. Talk, sit with your grandparents, chat. What about council? What about council? She said, "Oh, my grandkids come round." She might have thought, "Oh, not come round." And she's done the right path. They don't talk. I remember sitting with my grandparents. I talk old and they've either used to try and play. I can tell, yeah. She's going to get a word in. Sorry. No, I'm kidding. But just thinking about your idea, obviously, like, because you know, the stuff you're saying there sounds like sort of classic, that you're right stuff. And there are even me, the Labour people listen to this, that will agree with sort of some of those principles. So you're wearing the toys and now you're in reform. Is it that reform are just the best vessel for your politics or have you moved a bit to the right? And do you think that reform are to the right of the Tories? I genuinely think that we. And Joe, what? I've had enough of this over the last few days. I haven't thought an opinion of Robert Jenner coming over the last few days. I didn't go out there and say 100% and I didn't say no to it. I didn't say yes. I didn't have an opinion. But you've forced me to do it now. And what I want to say is, he said it perfectly. We do not have a future anymore. We don't. We have to unite the right. And I have to do it on the council. I have the only reform politician that is in some kind of coalition with the Tories. Not a coalition in fact where it's like lived in Tories back in the day. This is more of a. We need you at this vote. This is important, help us. And they will because we agree more. And I've talked to dinner last night and it really hit me. And it just. Because it's my family, it's my future. And when I speak to people about it and other than dinner and they said we. It. if the Tories were reformed, joined forces, we would be unstoppable. We can change this country for the future. David Starky, he said it and hit me, and I went, you're right here, we should not throw this away if we want labour, the mid-debs, the greens, the river swimmers, the money spenders, we have to unite. The river swimmers, that's what I call the greens, river swimmers. They swim in rivers. That sounds nice. No, the canal, that type of stuff. There's a running joke in my literature about one of the green counsellors. He comes in and he smiles and I said to my counsellors, he's been swimming in the river and he said, no, that's contaminated. I went, yes, that's because he's in it. We don't want to bully people here. He doesn't actually swim in the river. I don't find river swimming in a nice natural environment, he's probably quite nice. He's more about the dirty canal type thing that we make the joke about. He's a sort of modern tree-hugging kind of thing. He's the breeze when he comes into the office, but I don't try on that, but I've told you, I hope he's all right. I hope you're not teasing someone who's vulnerable. No, no, no, no, no. He bought me the Communist manifesto for Christmas. That was a true fact. You're interesting gift. Yeah, very interesting. I'm ready yet. I don't think I will. It's quite interesting, you know, when we've been working with all political parties in warring shit, we have to work with the Greens on some things and talk to them and get their opinion and see where they're voting and the Lib Dems. It's been an eye-opener for me and then reform, because you see how other politicians think, you know, how the Lib Dems work locally, how the Greens work locally. Very interesting. I'm sorry. I'm giving you more respect for them. I think respect for the most politicians and what they do in their areas, hats off to them, you know, they do some good stuff. I won't disagree on their policies, but, you know, that doesn't mean we can have a bit of a joke at the coffee machine, you know, a lot like that. You you you you remember swimming and they say, are you terrible, terrible person? They say the thing, yeah. And it's for me, it's more top of the dupes back. That's why I'm quite blunt in the way I've come and do some of the jokes about them, because if I, if they made jokes about me, put me in, you know, made some AI about me with a rock sack, sandal, little boy George, he's got, they call me boy George, little boy George, going to, and yes, I know the connotation now and what that means, but instead, geocat the end of the day, it's not, it's not harmful. So actually, can you, can you, can you, can you come, kind of get on with them in that political context, then you can sort of have used them all briefings and cross-party working and do that. Obviously, there's things that I don't want to invite them to with cross-party workings, because I know that we won't get anything done. We'll just debate on, like, say at home school transport, I'll say we need to change things. I'll go, no, no, no, no, and I'll be like, well, we might, we might as well just give up. So that's where I'll only work with, sort of, conservative on that. This is my point. And do you think that people underestimated you because of your age? And do you think that's changed? Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely. I remember when I first got into office, some, an interview was held by an ITV and some lady said, you know, they said, you know, not at 18, 18 years in charge, and she said, and she said to the interviewer, oh, well, you know, it's my son's 40 and I wouldn't trust him to run it back. And everyone went, oh, that's not fair. And I went, no, that's bad parenting. You're 40, old son doesn't know how to run a bath. I said, God, I've been hovering up since I was five. So, yes, people underestimated me. And I do think across Warwickshire, I've made that impact. People meet me, you know, seeing the, kind of, the Dean of Warwick University, I've met people quite influential in Warwickshire and after meeting them, you hear what, you know, because you've got friends that connect them, you hear things that they say about you. And the big thing is they're very, very impressed with the way that I hold myself. I speak. And they think of pressure, pressure. And they just want something different, you know, someone that can really do what? Because it's their futures too. Yeah, they've got, you know, we've got less, less life to have than I do, but they've still got grandkids and families. So it's all to play for them as well. So they need someone new and that's where I come in. I'm going to return to the sort of political point about the, you know, reform and the Tories is, because you lots of Tories now join in reform and a Robert Jenric, the biggest defect so far. And obviously, whenever a party is receiving lots of defectors, obviously that shows that the momentum is with them and it shows that the party that those people are leaving is more in trouble. But they're also carrying the political risk, doesn't it? That the public go, well, hang on a minute, we booted that out last year, you know, a year and a half ago and now they've all joined your party. So if you're not going to vote for the Tories, why would we vote for you? We just follow the same people that effectively in the public should be failed the country. And that's what they lost the last election. Yeah, that is the risk that reforms got. And Zia, you know, says it perfectly. He says, I mentioned two things he said, it was really good. So he said, when an animal is most vicious, is when it's going and that's the state, that's the established room. They will vote anything on it to destroy us. So we need to find where those bumps are, those hurdles, those doors that we need to open. And that's people that have been in that room. And that's where the conservatives do come in. And that's where I said before, if we, and the people will look at the ground and go, right, if we want labour out, what do we do? We have to vote right when the party's conservatives all reform in certain areas. And people will make that concert conscious decision. And it's quite passionate when I talk about that because it's their future. And that's, that's what I think. And that's what I think. And that's what I think is, that's what I think is important. And then when Zia also said a few days ago, and people think that I'm not a fan of defictions because I said he said, you know, May 7th doors are closed. And I've got 100%. And that's the last thing I've found on social media. People think, oh God, George isn't happy seeing the lights, I'd speak, but Robert Demrick said it clearly, you know, he's first loyalty is to the country. His first loyalty is to the people. So he's made that decision. And it must have been an awful decision. Yeah, I joined a form from the conservative, but I wasn't a major player at that point. I weren't a counselor. I weren't elected. So what made you, what made you swap? Leanderson. Because Leanderson sure if he's chosen to leave or whether you were kicked out, what happened? I don't know why they said, come on from actually. So I was, what I've stated in the past is that I was kicked out of the group chat being called a traitor, but I left the party. And so I left the party joined reform, campaign with reform in the general election. I think the Tories then keep me out of the group chat, traitor. So that's where that came from. I just resigned my membership, time, the reform is the party that speaks to me and sits my boxes because Leanderson come down that week when he defected, he come down to the meeting and spoke to some reform people. And I left the conservatives of the report. Let's see what reforms are about. So the general election reform was well, 14, 13% in the polls were a bit lower at that point. And I just wanted to see what was going on in my town with reform. Is it that you think it's more electrically viable or does it better reflect your politics? Yeah, it better affects my politics. It takes my boxes. I see myself as reformed conservative to someone that's been in the conservative party, seen how it works, know their politics and just go, you're too weak, you're too weak. So weak, what, ideologically, so not right wing enough? Not necessarily right wing. Refall is a right wing party, say, with the conservatives, but it's not a, it's not an extremist party or a political party, but a not that. Because some people think it's some people think, look, this is really worried about it. And do you miss sense that? Yeah, I need to be with commentary on what I was sure I think it was a few days ago, about 35% of UD students want to ban reform in university. And that's because they're scared to death. These terrible fascists come in and taking us all out. And I don't want to see those things. People say, well, most people don't even call us that. It's actually quite bad calling us that in a sense. And not because it offends us. It's more than it's, that's going to hurt people in the future, Jewish people, people of color, those things. It's going to really hurt them because you're just throwing that word about. And when you want to call someone that actually does those things what they are, you do mean the word. Again, it's so exciting. But do you ever worry, do you ever hear things in reform meetings or, you know, events, they think all that is a bit too right wing for me, I worry that we're attracting the wrong people. Don't get me wrong. There is things that I disagree with in reform in the political party. But that's only a small amount of stuff. But I don't know. We don't have meetings where it's massively too much of a wall to allow guys, we're very, very sensible because we know what the general public feel and they wouldn't think that. So there are some major questions that do have to be asked, which people haven't asked in the past. What like? Well, we, you know, for example, the way immigration's going, you know, illegal and legal immigration, and people go 10 years ago, "Oh, we can't talk about that." But who has? For the last 13 years, what single person has been talking about these issues? It's been Nigel Farage and he's been right. So let's take that to task. He's been there for 30 years and he said everything. He's been right. So Joe, let's give him a chance. Let's give him that chance. And when people say to me, "Go, who would you want to be prime minister?" I go, "Well, look at all the party leaders." Ed David, joke. That country even though I'm woman is how can we do that? Keir Starmer, she's failed this country so much. The Tories have failed this country. I say the conservative broke bread, the Labour have left it to rat, and reformers speak to it. But what man has been in politics for the last 30 years? And has changed this country for the better? Without being an elected politician in the West Minister bubble, being in the European Parliament, yeah, changing it in Europe. It's been Nigel. No Nigel has managed to change political parties, decision-making, from being on the outside. But I get that he's influential. There's no question about that. But he effectively leads to a Brexit that you accept has failed. On Trump, he's basically on his side, even when he's put in tariffs on the UK. People will look at this kind of go, "Actually, I don't think he gets everything right. I think he actually gets the big things really badly wrong." No, Brexit has failed in the sense that it's been that left. It's been controlled by remainers. That's why it's failed. If Nullard you've got it in 2016. Well, I'm Boris. Yeah, he lied. He's not a manor, is he? He was. You want to be honest being small, concerned with colleagues about him. He was a remainer. But come the referendum he was, you know, he was Mr. Leve, and he won the election on Get Brexit done and all that. I mean, come on. He said this is an oven ready deal. He's been in the freezer. You know, he completely lied. And the people, Alfred, we felt it. And that was the dangerous and the politicians in when they were. Isn't that the risk for forages that people are going on? I mean, it would have been here before. We've had a charismatic Brexit here, we told us it was really easy. And it's not the reality that Brexit is never going to work out because it involved leaving a trading bloc that has made us poorer, that has made trade harder. I think, and what we're doing in Warring's year, I can have that really well actually, because more of the same, with some of that's been going on for years and years and years, or let's go elsewhere. Let's look elsewhere. Let's look at America, America, Japan, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa. Let's look at those countries. And that's what I'm saying in Warring's year. Let's look at other places that we haven't even looked at yet. Innovative change. And I think Nigel's the best guy for it. So, yes, Brexit hasn't worked entirely well because of the fact it's been led by remainers and failed politicians in a week. So, what about your police ambitions then? Because, you know, your leader of the council already, surely you must be looking at Parliament, and you think, well, if reform were going to form the government at some point, you'd want to be a part of that. I think, I want to obviously support reform in any way I can. And that's why I go rather than do what I do. But, I, leader of the council at the moment, would I like to be a member of Parliament? I would do what the party asked me to do. If they say George, we want you here, I'd say right, I'd prefer to be in my hometown, or bed with a North Warring's year. So, if that's the place, you want to put me there, there we go. So, it's completely what the party needs at the time. I'm loyal to the party. I'm loyal to the country. So, if they want to support me in doing so, I will, and I'll do anything for reform. So, we just wait and see what happens, you know. But at this moment in time, leaving the council's one biggest, biggest priority, and nothing can get in the way of that. And you're clearly putting me out, you know, we're talking on a Sunday lunchtime. Do you get much of a work-life balance? I was talking about this yesterday, actually. This dinner, I was talking a lot about the sounds of things. But, yeah, not much to be honest with you. You know, I was talking to a guy yesterday, he said, "You've sacrificed a lot, really. Your life, you know, with your mates and stuff like that." And I said, "Yeah, but people have sacrificed much more, I guess." And I say, "I'm in the job now. I need to do the job." If that means that I don't get to go to the pub every single day when you make to get drunk, that's probably for the best, so I imagine. You know. So, yeah, we were talking about it. And I just thought, you know, we really need to look at this of a work-life balance, is that, you know, politicians don't really get one. Look at Nigel Franch, going around the country. It seems to go to the pub often enough. Yeah, exactly. I do too. You know, having a few of the pounds, quite recently, to the others and the others didn't. I need to hit the gym. It's finding that time of the willpower to do it. Yeah, it's probably a gym, you know, each one of it. But, yeah. I work weekends, I work seven days a week, really. The late nights, early morning, but you know what? That's what the people would expect me to do. That's what the residents would want me to do. So, I'm doing it, and I'm not voting about it. Well, George, I'm going to let you get some of your time back. I'm going to let you go. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. Thank you. [Music] There you go, George Finch. The leader of Warwickshire County Council. Absolutely full of beans. You think, well, that's reform. Whether they're coming after the next election or not, you know, they're going to have a lot of MPs in all likelihood. It's interesting that there might be, I don't put words into his mouth. Clearly, open, some sort of reform conservative pact. I wonder how much that thinking is going to develop now, the next election about whether reform feel if they've hit a ceiling, they have some sort of tactical arrangement. Whether that compromises, I think they've been a really tricky political position, where you kind of, you're the party with all the momentum, but if you are just seen as a receptacle of the party that people rejected just over a year ago, that obviously takes political, you know, comes with political risk. And whether that limits or enhances, it's really interesting that, I mean, obviously, we're still a few years out from a general election in all likelihood. So who knows? But it is that that realignment on the right, and obviously, Robert Generick's defection is huge. But whether it just clearly comes with risks as well as momentum and how that plays out, obviously we just don't know yet. But it was great talking to George about local government, took me back to my days in local government, and just about how the system works is really fascinating. I'll, you know, obviously the politics on top of it. But I'll be back next week with another fantastic guest and back on stage on Monday the 26th of January with a special VIP guest, so I can't announce my tour, starts on the 28th in Birmingham. I'll see you on the road or I'll see you in the West End and I'll be back next week with another fantastic guest. Until then, oh, leave a five-star review so that the podcast gets the charts. And see you next week.