Should trans women be included in women's sports? ✶ with Lia Thomas

Hi, I'm Skyler Baylor and welcome to Dear Skyler. I was the first transgender athlete to compete in any sport on an NCAA Division I men's team. If you're confused about how that works or what it exactly means that I quote "transition" then you're in the right place. Same goes for people who want to transition or have recently but have no idea what to do next. We live in a rapidly changing world and sometimes understanding change can be difficult, especially around a topic that can be as charged and complicated as trans is often portrayed to be. So during this series I'm going to help you understand a bit more about who you are and how your family, friends, co-workers and people in and out of the LGBTQ+ community can understand the life and experiences of trans folks like me. I get a ton of comments like this all the time. What about Leah Thomas? Isn't it just science that trans women have an advantage? It's just science, bro. Why should biological women have to compete against transgender women? In the end, these all ask kind of the same questions so let's simplify this a bit. Today's question will be answering is, "Is it fair to include transgender women in women sports?" I'm sure I don't have to tell you that this is one of the most contentious topics of our time. Whether you've read about it, watched about it, listened to some radio show about it, a lot of people are talking about trans women in women sports. And maybe you have a feeling about it. Maybe you support trans women in sports but maybe you're not so sure. I know a lot of people who have told me that they've supported me. They've said, "You know what, Skyler? I support you and you competing in men sports." But I'm not sure about trans women in women sports. Listen, I support trans women. But what about fairness? What about fairness and protecting the women's category? In the United States, especially the inclusion of trans people, most specifically trans children in children sports has become a centerpiece of political debate, mostly demonizing trans people. And in this country, it has worked. Leah Thomas in 2022 became the first transgender athlete to win an NCAA D1 championship. And she took on a large brunt of this debate. When she won, she had satisfied all of the NCAA's regulations and had even more than doubled the time requirement to compete in the women's category. Despite this, people flew from all over the world to protest her. She became a central talking point on Fox News and really any other news source. To this day, she faces a barrage of hateful comments and transphobic rhetoric online and in person, all because she chose to be her authentic self and play her sport. In fact, I think there's no better person to provide insight into today's question than Leah herself. That's why I invited her to be a guest on this podcast. She actually first reached out to me almost five years ago when she was just beginning to understand her own transness and trying to figure out how she would take steps forward. And we've been friends ever since. During our discussion, you'll hear how being a national talking point felt from Leah's perspective. You will also find out her true motivations behind her transition. Did she transition to win? And what that process was like as a college student just trying to find herself. A few reminders as you listen. Your feelings are valid. If you have a knee-jerk reaction that says, "No, this is unfair. Hold that. Sit with it." It doesn't mean that feeling is a fact. So give yourself time to digest before you come to conclusions and judgments. Also, please remember that Leah is a human, just like you, and deserves all the empathy you'd give to any other human. Leah, I'm so excited that you're here. Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, of course. Thanks so much for having me. This is great. Absolutely. Well, for anybody who doesn't know who you are, could you give us sort of a quick little intro about who you are? Yeah, my name is Leah Thomas. I am the first, I'm a trans swimmer. And I am the first transgender athlete to win a D1 NCAA title, which is pretty cool. Awesome. How does it feel to say that? I mean, I feel like you probably had to say it more often these days than you might have ever imagined. It feels good to say it. I'm proud of my accomplishments and of where my swimming career has taken me. And it's something that sort of I felt, and I think trans women and sports have felt, that we're almost not allowed to celebrate our accomplishments and our victories when we do win. Because there's all this hollow about us competing. And so our victories are often downplayed. And so it does feel good to celebrate when we do win. I love that. I love hearing you talk about being proud. I love hearing any trans people talk about being proud because I think it's something that's so constantly robbed from us of, of, oh, don't be proud of this. Or you know, you should be, we are so often shamed, you know. So whenever you say I'm proud, especially of your athletic achievements, because I know how hard you worked for them. It makes me feel really happy. What is it like to say that here? I mean, I think, I haven't actually, to be honest with you, haven't heard you say that you're proud a whole lot of your athletic accomplishments, especially, I think, given what the media does with it. Yeah, it's something I felt very conscious of, like last year during the season, there was the media controversy. There was just so much going around. And I felt I didn't want to invite any more sort of negativity than I needed to, but I think trans women should be celebrated when we win. Yeah, absolutely. Like any other woman. Yeah. And you know, what I think about often when we think about trans women specifically getting ridicules or demonized for their performance in sport. And I say as if there's a tons of trans women in sport, which we know there also is not a trans woman in sport to go off of. But in any case, the few trans women that have competed or won national international competitions, it makes me think about how we've also seen other women policed in a similar way, which I think, you know, you know, I've talked a lot about something. I've talked a lot about online, which is that this isn't new, right? Like you being policed this way or you being ridiculed this way is perhaps new for you, but it's not new for like women's sports, right? We've seen this happen repeatedly for especially black and brown women, any woman that deviates from this like image of womanhood. And I think, I don't know, for me, it's always so important to have people remember that. Yeah. I think it's very important for everybody to remember that this policing of trans women and this transphobia is not sort of isolated on its own. It's part of this much broader system of trying to police people's bodies and especially women's bodies and that comes down on mostly marginalized groups, trans women, black and brown women. One of the things I think about a lot, and I've been asked a lot as a trans athlete, as a trans advocate, as somebody people know is your friend. People say, so scarier like, what about the leotamas issue? And whenever I hear that, my first response is always like, she's not an issue actually. There is maybe an issue surrounding trans women's sports or competitive conversations, but you are a person. And I know you and I've talked a lot about this before, but when people say that and they sort of reduce you to just an issue, can you share a little bit of what that makes you feel like? Yeah, it's very frustrating to see people sort of focus on the controversy of my swimming and of trans women in sports more broadly because it just misses at our humanity and it doesn't a lot of the reporting doesn't sort of approach us as being human beings. Totally. They just see us as this issue. I'm the leotamas issue, not just, I'm never just leotamas. I am right. Whatever I am in that article, whatever controversy. And so I just, yeah, it's frustrating and it's a little tough to see sometimes. Absolutely. We've talked about this too before, but one of the things that has struck me in watching others, I know that people are transphobic. We both know this is not a surprise. We've talked about this for years and I think we can't be trans people in the world and in the media without knowing transphobic exists, but sometimes it strikes me how deep it is. There was that reporter a couple years or we got every last year that was so struck by the fact that you weren't competing to win. I mean, you try your best, of course, but you didn't transition in order to have some sort of competitive advantage. And I just, that memory sits so strongly in my brain where we were sitting. This reporter was asking you questions and it was day two. We'd already done hours of interviews at this point. He'd spend time with you, he'd spend time with me. And he sat there and he was just dumb struck. I remember his face, like shifting as you were explaining. I can't remember what exactly the answer was, but you said something and he was like, oh my god. So you're really not just this nefarious and the word nefarious was when he used. He was like, you're not just this nefarious figure who's just trying to win sports. And I wanted to scream at him. I was like, where have you been? But I bring this up because I think it is a it's a calm, it's a very common misconception about you, but about any trans people. Even me, where people were like, oh, you're just taking testosterone to win. And I was like, there's not even relevant to sports in my opinion in this. So I'm curious what you, you know, what was going on for you in that moment. If you remember it or what you have to say about that. Yeah, I don't know if I remember exactly what I was thinking in that moment. But it makes me think that I've just how like people's meant for lots of people, like their only interaction with trans people is through the media, where a lot of people don't know any trans people in their lives. And so they only see us in the news. And the news is so sensationalized. And like I said earlier, they focus on the controversy because that's what gets clicks. And that's what drives revenue at that they don't see the just shared humanity that trans people have. And so when they finally sit down with a trans person and talk, it clicks, that's like, oh my God, like I'm talking to another person that has feelings and a personality outside of trying to win sports. Yeah. It sounds so, I've spent so many interviews saying, just a reminder, Leah Thomas is actually a whole person with feelings. And every time I say it, I have to be serious. Like I have to actually communicate this as if it's a real thing I need to say. And what I say as if what I mean is like, of course, I want this to be a given. You know what I mean? It anger's me that I have to say that. But I feel like I have to remind people that I know you do too. And I think, I guess I wonder if you have any insight as to like, why? The media is a part of it. But why are people so, we don't have to answer, but I'm curious. Like why do you think people are so married to this idea that trans people are other, right? As opposed to something they could potentially connect with? I think people, like outside of just the media, society as sort of a whole, sense of very young age and grains in us a certain way that gender is, that men are, that women are, and trans people sort of break that down. And they sort of show that no. Like these stereotypes that we've been taught are true and holds since birth are not true. And they don't hold. And that there's this whole wide range of possibility that you can explore. Absolutely. I think what you're getting it also sort of like, there's this, I've experienced there to be a fear or a resistance because of fear to learning more about oneself, especially if you're not trans. I think trans people we have to. Like we can't. How do we, how else do we figure out that we're trans? We have to be like, wait, hold on. Who am I? Whereas a lot of cis people might not have to do that. Yeah. And I think it's scary to do it. I mean, I know when I was questioning my identity, I was like, well at first I was like, absolutely not. No thank you. That's really dysregulating. But it ended up being this beautiful journey that's brought me all this happiness and alignment. But I think cis people are afraid of that. Yeah, I think, I agree. I think your aunt is only there. And that's just being trans inherently asks a lot of self-reflection and self-searching that doesn't happen for a lot of people. And so even just talking to a trans person can I think invite a little bit of that self-reflection just in the nature of that conversation, especially if you're interviewing somebody, like a trans person about their experiences and their lives. Right. Yeah, I mean, that's making me think about sort of like one of the primary arguments, as you know, but for anybody who's listening against trans women. The only one that really holds quote unquote validity when I say quote unquote, well, again, I told you right, is the science, again, quote unquote science biological, quote unquote argument. And people will say, oh well, it biologically, it's unfair and people go on this tangent and this rant about how some x biology is like this and y biology is like that. And one of the things that I try to educate people on is, wait, hold on. Actually, that's not even all of it. Right. And I don't know about you, but when I was in middle school, I learned xx and xy, I learned penis and vagina, and that was it. I didn't get anything more complicated than that, right? Turns out the more I've learned, actually, even biological sex is not that simple. Yeah. And I guess like when we're talking about the concept of cis people broadening their horizons, we'll say, I think one of the things they actually have to do, or one of the things that they should do if they're trying to understand inclusion of trans women coming from a place of anti-trans rhetoric, is they actually have to sort of break that conception of the world from a moment, right? They have to separate enough from it. They can say, maybe what I know isn't true. And I think for a lot of people, that's really hard, because biology is like an ultimate fact, right? But separating from that feels really difficult. I know that those arguments have been perpetrated constantly against you, so we don't need to dive into that. But I'm curious if you, in conversations that you've had in your life, maybe more on an interpersonal level, so less like with the media and press. But have you found difficulty in having those conversations about your performance with friends with other interpersonal relationships where you might need to use certain facts or something to help? I haven't had any sort of-- I don't know if I've had any conversations with family or friends sort of specifically about my performance. I've noticed I had an experience with a couple of friends or one friend in particular who was prior to me coming out. Didn't know much about trans people. Didn't know any trans people. And just sort of like, I don't know about this. I don't know. And I don't know about this whole thing. Yeah. They were definitely not like outright transphobic, but you know that sort of state of mind. We were like, what? I don't know. Healed some bias. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of implicit bias that you pick up. But then after I came out and he saw one of my closest friends and is now one of my biggest supporters, but as I mentioned earlier, having that sort of personal connection and being friends with the trans woman, it clicked for him. That sort of reflection. Oh, OK, this is possible. There are all these range of possibilities of how gender is and how it manifests. And so just sort of not even intentionally trying to pull in like facts or arguments to sort of straight people's minds, but just sort of my own lived experience and sort of sharing that with him and being friends has sort of opened his mind to the broader possibilities. Yeah, I love that. I think sort of it seems in my experience there's sort of two camps of people. There's the people-- well, there's three. That there's the third is that they will never change. So that's we can leave them aside. But there's the people who are moved by science and facts, right? And for those people, there are many studies that are now coming out. There's actually a most recent-- it's a great summary of the past 10 years of research on trans women, specifically in elite level sports. Of course, they found that trans women do not have a significant biological advantage over cis women in sports. And that testosterone actually surprises not a primary meeting factor, which is pretty-- it was a pretty great study that came out. So for people who do want to dive into the science, there actually is science and supports that your, for example, your participation is fair on a biological level. But that's science and facts. But I think you're right. The large majority people are on this other camp of like-- yeah, yeah, facts, whatever. Let me actually ignore them or say that they're fake until I get a personal connection. And I think for me, that's so beautiful and also so frustrating, because I don't think we should have to love a trans person in order to be accepting of people who we don't understand. And I think that's something that I carry with me because I don't know how to get the vast majority of people who aren't going to necessarily meet a trans person, or who now will refuse to meet a trans person, even though they definitely have met them that they don't know. Yeah, yeah. It's just-- I think it's very beautiful to see when it does happen. But I agree. I can be very frustrating that for a lot of people, it seems they need to know a trans person just to get that sort of almost baseline level of empathy. Yeah, which is-- I think-- which-- how do I say this best? I think it reduces their humanity. If you can't connect with people unless you really know them, and if you won't let them have their own dignity, their own humanity, their own bodily autonomy, unless you know and love somebody with those identities, that's sad to me, right? I want everybody, even people I don't understand, to be able to have their own bodily autonomy, life, freedom, and so on. So that kind of reminds me of-- there's a big media splash as well, but you had some personal friends and teammates and such, whether or not their friends or not another story, who supposedly-- I might say supposedly-- wrote a letter with somebody else that-- how do I say this best-- disapproved of your participation in support. And they wrote specifically that they approved of you. We affirm Leah in her gender, but we don't think that Leah should compete. How did that feel? I mean, I know you've shared about it before, but I would love to hear. Yeah. It's obviously a little frustrating to feel that coming from your team that's supposed to have your back. It's also frustrating in the regard that they're like, oh, we respect Leah as a woman, as a trans woman, or whatever. We respect her identity. We just don't think it's fair. And I think that you can't really have that sort of half support where you're like, oh, I respect her as a woman here, but not here. That's just like you can't do that. You can't sort of break down me as a person into little pieces. And you're like, OK, this is OK. - Okay, that's not, that's not. And so it's sort of pretending to be supportive on some level, but in reality, it just, it sort of falls flat. - Yeah. I mean, they can't slice us in half. - Yeah. - We can't be okay here, but not okay there. And I think what I've tried to do in listening to these arguments is really try to understand where they're coming from. Especially the fact that this whole protect, quote unquote protect women's sports has become a very big movement. With a lot of support, a lot of money. And sometimes I wonder if it's about the money, but let's leave that aside. It's become a very big movement and a lot of people have gone involved and that they do it under the guise of feminism. Oh, we're just feminists, we just fighting for women. And whenever anybody says that, I'm always like, okay, you're fighting for women by excluding women. So that's not fighting for women. But they'll say, and it's so interesting 'cause they'll, they'll, they really tie a little, they like shoot themselves in the foot because they'll be like, we affirm Leah as a woman, but we're fighting for women. And I'm like, okay, how can you say both of those in the same sentence? 'Cause you're clearly implying that Leah's not a woman then. So I'm curious like, what are the, I don't know what the best question to ask here is, I mean, I just get infuriated by it. But I'm curious what understanding you might have of what kind of what goes through their minds and then what would we do about it? Yeah, that's a, that's very tough. Yeah, like you said, they're using the guys of feminism to sort of push transphobic beliefs. And I think it's a lot of people in that camp sort of carry an implicit bias against trans people but don't, when I guess, maybe fully manifest or speak that out and so they try to just play it off as this sort of half support. Oh no, I respect you as a woman, but only in certain instances and whether I actually, that actually holds that's a little effort I think. And so it's just, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it, when I hear their testimonies, I'll call them, and this isn't just about your teammates. Also, I'm not even entirely convinced that all of the, who knows how many teammates is anonymous, right? So that aside, there are arguments are also not new. We've seen them in many different places. I was at a convention recently where there was a protect, quote unquote, protect woman's sports protest and a couple of the protesters came up to us to talk to us and I say, us, it was a me and a bunch of people on a panel. And they were like almost in tears being like, this is hurting women, women are crying, young girls are crying. And I was sitting there and I was like, why? Why? What is, and I asked them, I was like, what is making, please tell me, why are all these women in tears, why are they crying, what is the pain that trans women are causing them? And the answer was something about opportunities being taken away. And I, first of all, is the same exact argument. It came up when black women began to be in sports. First of all, which, you know, it's just, you don't want a woman who doesn't look like you perhaps or who is fitting your version of womanhood to win. But really, and I think this is the part that people are, again, missing is that then they're enforcing this concept of like when somebody wins, whoever they are, if you don't like what sort of they fit or don't, we should call it unfair instead of teaching everybody in sports to be resilient to losing, right? Or resilient to not winning, whatever it may be. But I'm curious kind of like, I just, I think about that moment a lot because I think about how twisted feminism, quote unquote feminism has become. And it's turned into, feminism is excluding women, first of all, which is it's not. It's reducing women. This, their arguments, you know, in order to exclude the, people like you, in order to exclude anybody in the trans category, you have to reduce women to reproductive capacity, right? Which is, in my opinion, extremely anti-feminist. - I agree. - I don't, I'm trying to figure out how we move through it. You might not have the answer, but I do have any thoughts about how, how us as society, especially because I wanna, I don't wanna put those women down either. And I know you don't want to either, 'cause I see pain. I see pain and the pain is coming from somewhere. It's not you though, it's the patriarchy. And how can we get people to see that, right? - Yeah, I think it's, it's very tough. I use that to very tough question. It's a very tough challenge to sort of overcome. I think a good spot is sort of trying to take this element of transphobia, and even more specifically transphobia in sports, and putting it into a broader context, and sort of seeing how it fits in, and broader systems of trying to control people, and control people's bodies, and exclude anybody who doesn't fit a certain mold. Because at the end of the day, we're all, everybody's trying to under-feminist, under a true feminist, is everybody trying to come together to sort of break down these patriarchal ideals of what a woman is, and who can be a woman, and sort of open that up to the very broad range of possibilities that there are. - Absolutely, yeah, and you're talking about zooming out, right, so we, people will say, well, it's just about fairness in sport, right? So that's why we have to exclude trans women from sport. But then of course, if we zoom out, we see that there's actually lots of bills banning trans boys in sports, which is interesting, right? Because if we cared about, if it's all about this guy's of feminism, we wouldn't care about the men's category. And we wouldn't, it doesn't matter if trans boys are losing in that side of things. Okay, so we zoom out, we see that it's not just about trans women, it's actually just about banning trans people, and trans children, most specifically from sport. We zoom out further, what else do we find? Actually, it's not about just trans sports, it's also trans healthcare, trans people in schools, trans people in the workplace, names, we can go on right back to our rooms. Okay, all right, so maybe it's just about trans people. Nope, actually it's about all queer people, because we've got hundreds of anti-queer bills. Oh wait, actually it's not just about that. It's also about policing anybody who can get pregnant and women in general. Okay, it's beyond that. It's also black votership and black voter suppression, and then it's about critical, so what exactly what you're saying, right? It all goes back to trying to police people who are not cisgender, who are not straight, who are not men and white. When we consider that context, and then we look at how people get laser focused on like trans people, trans women, and then really just you, right? They then weaponize your story, right? And I think this is, for me, one of the most painful things to watch, like if I consider being you, they twist your story, and then they're using it to fuel a lot of these anti-trans bills, right? Which don't actually care about college for the most part, not about the Olympics, not about professional sports, but about children. How do you sort of digest that? It's definitely very tough at times, and it's something I, also I definitely struggled with, sort of at first, sort of like a year ago, following the season, following anti-novelets, and feeling almost a responsibility, or maybe even a blame for some of the new, rulings or rules or legislation, but what's helped me sort of move through that, and as a good reminder, is that it wasn't me personally that sparked it. It was just, they were waiting for a trans woman to be successful to go on a whole tirade against trans people and pass all sorts of legislation. And so that's helped sort of, help me move past that a little bit, but still hard to see that, because the message I've always tried to promote and try to show is to pass down a lot of the guidance and help that I've received from other trans people, from you, from others, have taught me how to be myself as I wanted to pass that on to other trans kids and show that you can be authentic to who you are and do the sport or the things you love. And it's just really, it's really hard to see at times that that dream and that goal that I've tried to strive for is no longer possible in many places. - That's, I think, the most devastating for me to watch as well. And I think, like you said, it was, I think it was somewhat inevitable to some degree that they would, you know, they being anti-trans rhetoric. - Would snatch up anybody who would make the story good enough, right, to push through this narrative that honestly is also unrelated. Like one of the things I also like people to remember is that college sports, NCAA sports, D1 sports, professional sports are completely different. - Level of sports. - Yeah. - That's elite level sports. Then children who are like kicking around a soccer ball, you know what I mean with their friends. And I guess what I'm wondering as I'm thinking about the meaning of sport is, could you share a little bit about what sport has meant to you, right? You didn't transition to play sports, but sports are also really important to you. And they've been, I think, from what I understand, life giving, life saving. - Yeah, like I started competitively swimming when I was five years old. It's something I've almost no memories of a time before I was a swimmer. It's something that's been a huge part of my life since I was young and has been hugely impactful and influential in shaping me as a person and helping me grow and helping me overcome obstacles, that just the joy of being active, of being able to move my body and move through the water and being able to do it with my friends and peers has been just an incredible experience and has helped me so much as a person. And it's so sad to see trans kids deprived of that opportunity to learn and grow and develop as a person and play and be active with their friends is something that's no longer possible. You and I have talked about the water before, but I feel like for me and I think you've told me this before too, the water was a way to connect with our bodies and attach from it at the same time. And I think as trans people who have struggled with our bodies in different ways due to gender dysphoria due to perhaps body image issues because the world is cruel, especially to us. Swimming for me was such a way to feel connected to my body because in swimming you don't look at your body, you're just swimming. But also sort of like disconnect from it because I got to just swim. So I was wondering if you could speak on that value for you as well. Yeah, it's something, it's definitely sort of changed a lot over the years, just in my almost 20 years of swimming, where sort of when I was a little kid first learning to swim, I was in love with the water. I just, I loved being in it, swimming, just floating, playing whatever. You couldn't give me out of the water. There's a story my mom likes to tell of. I was probably like five years old. It's like early, it's like in the spring, I was swimming in the water was called and my lips are turning blue, but she couldn't give me out of the water. And so it was just this almost magical place where I was young. And then sort of as I got older, sort of going through puberty, high school, and especially into college when I sort of first started to realize I was trans, my relationship with the water shifted a little bit where it sort of stopped being this almost magical place where I was basically flying. And it's, this, and it became this place where I'm just in the water in a swim suit, just my body is just out and for the world to see. And it was a time where I was struggling a lot with gender dysphoria and I was very uncomfortable in my body. And so for a couple years sort of at the start of college, the pool twisted and it became a place where that a lot of those feelings became amplified and it became a lot harder to feel the enjoyment of the water. And then it's something that's shifted back again as I started HRT to transition, became much happier as a person in my body that my last year, especially in college and now just swimming recreationally that I'm able to again feel that that freeing effect from being in the water of again just let just feeling my body move and just enjoying it a lot more. I like to could deep breath as you were talking because I was just thinking about the feeling of being in the water. I love it too. It's a really magical feeling. So I want to, if you feel comfortable talking a little bit more about that moment that was darker or that period of time was darker because kind of going back to the beginning of our conversation, a lot of people do think that trans people, especially trans women, transition for the purpose, like athletic gain, right? Oh, she just transitioned to win. And I remember when you first reached out to me, right? You've been friends since 2018, you had reached out to me, a mutual friend. Can you share a little bit more about that moment when you reached out to me and kind of what was going on for you just kind of how our friendship started? Yeah, so I reached out to you in, I guess June of 2018 when, basically at that point. So I realized I was trans right before I moved in freshman year, fun time. Yeah, it was, yeah, and part of that is why it sort of took me another year to sort of fully accept that is I realized I was trans. And then a week later, I'm in a new city, new people living on my own as much as living being a dorm as living on your own, but it's totally new environment. And a lot of fears and worries about how teammates, friends would accept me. And so I sort of walked myself back in the closet a little bit. And I was like, I don't know, and sort of had another year of sort of self discovery, I guess, and until at the end of my freshman year, I sort of had finally solidified myself. And I was like, I can't sort of hide from this anymore that this is who I am, I am trans. And then there were still the questions of like, I don't know what to do. There's so much, how does any of this work? I don't know how to get through any of it. And I was lucky enough that we had our mutual friend Joanne, and she was able to put me in contact with you. And just I was at that point and for the year that would follow that, very much struggling with feeling torn between among a lot of things, but one of the most notable was feeling very torn between wanting to transition, wanting to start H or T, be comfortable, be happy in my body, and very real fears and worries about the future of swimming, am I swimming? And whether I could, that was something that would be able to continue or if this was going to be the end. And so I struggle with that a lot. And there were other factors as well, but that was one of the most important. It sort of led me into a kind of hole into a very dark place where I felt very trapped. And I was feeling very, very depressed. And it got to the point that I all came to a head in the spring of 2019, about a year later, where things were just getting worse and worse and worse. I had the season had ended that year, so there was no real way to sort of distract myself. I couldn't just dissociate in the water, I didn't want to try to get by. And I was very depressed. I was having feelings of suicidality. And there was just a very dark and very unpleasant place. And I basically, I decided, I say, decided in very strong quotes here, right? And so to say, I need to start HRT, I need to start transitioning, I need to be happy because there was no alternative. I did not see my life continuing with any other way. There was such a distressing feeling of gender dysphoria piled on top of me. I needed to do something in that, because otherwise that path didn't lead anywhere. And so I decided to start HRT, to put a more, I wanted to end this story on a positive note though, because it does have a good ending. Is that a couple months ago, I hit three and a half years on estrogen, which is, I didn't even realize that at the time, I realized it a month or so later, when I first reached out to you, I asked you a bunch of questions about your experience being trans, coming out at HRT, all of that, just because I was like, I need to get information in. And you're a great resource. I'm very appreciative. But I remember, in June of 2018, my first reach out to you, you hadn't mentioned I think about three and a half years on testosterone. At that point, and I remember thinking to myself of just being like, oh my god, like three and a half years on HRT, that seems like a lifetime away. That's so impossibly far, however, going to get there. And here you are. And here I am. I made it. And so it's, yeah, it got better. That's so beautiful. I'm tearing up. And I just, I'm so grateful for you sharing that here. Sharing it with me, sharing it with people who are listening. I know it takes a lot to share these things as somebody who shared it. And also, I know that in many ways, you're a private person. And I love that for you. I really do. So I just want to show you that I'm very grateful for you, sharing your feelings about that. And I think that a couple of things I want to sort of point out from what you shared. The first is that you weren't thinking about sports during this time. In fact, if anything, sports held you back from transition. And I think that's the case for a lot of trans people where like, we actually try every everything we possibly can first to not transition and play sports because of the landscape, right? And you tried for a long time, it sounded like, to not transition so that you could continue to play your sport 'cause you weren't sure what you were gonna do. And somehow you still competed, somehow you still did really well while also being miserable, while also missing practice. (laughing) - Also dealing with this. I mean, that was a really tough time and you still somehow were able to succeed when you were in the men's category, which people miss as well. It's a good point also because you're like, oh, well, Leah was this good before? You were miserable. (laughing) And somehow still figured that out. - I agree. It's, so, in any case, I just, you've told me this many times and I think people really need to remember this. When you decided to take a HRT, you didn't even tell anybody on your team. They didn't know you were doing that. - Yeah, I didn't, 'cause I started HRT in May of 2019. And I didn't tell anybody outside of my immediate family and a couple very close friends. I think you were one of them. - Yeah. - Until late August or really September. - Yeah. - And I think-- - You were planning to stay on the men's team for a while. - Yeah, well, for a good chunk of that summer, I wasn't sure if I was gonna continue swimming at all. I thought I sort of went into sort of choosing to start HRT. Sort of with the mindset that I was like, "Okay, I'm just putting sports aside." - Right. - I'm very sad to sort of be leaving swimming, but I need to do this. I have to do this. - Yeah. - And it wasn't until sort of a couple months into the summer. I was feeling a lot better. I had a much better mental state. I was much happier than I started to think, "Okay, maybe there is a way to sort of move forward with this. "Maybe I can continue to swim." 'Cause I knew the NCAA rules at that time where one year on estrogen and testosterone was present. And so I was like, "Okay, the rules are such "that if coaches and teammates are supportive "that there might be a way to continue swimming "and for my last season, finally truly compete as myself." - Right. - Right. - I mean, I think this conversation around choice is something so interesting. And I know you said in big quotes, it was a quote decision to start HRT, but it's something that you and I've talked about and that I think cis people might not understand. It doesn't always feel like much of a choice, like you said. - Yeah. - And I think for a lot of people, it is the choice between staying here and here being life or not. And I'm so glad that you decided to stay. I'm so glad you fought for yourself. I have such a clear image of how you were when I first met you and how you are now. It's, I mean, the image of you before it is so far away in so many ways. And it's not because you, I mean, you look different, of course, but that's not the difference for me. The difference is you laugh now. You smile like I can feel that you're proud of who you are and the person that I met that first time. I mean, obviously he's also you. I'm trying to segment you to different people. - Yeah. - But there was this sort of, like, I mean, the way you tell me if this feels right to you, but you were sort of a shell of what you are now. - Yeah. - Yeah, I say, yeah. - Yeah, no, I definitely agree. I, because I remember, I think the first time we met in person, it was that hard, and we went up, I finally got to talk to him person, but I was just, that was January 2019. And for that point, I was very miserable. And just as you said, kind of a shell. And even so my other friends at Penn noticed too. And they didn't really know the reason at the time, but they sort of mentioned to me later after I'd came out and they could really see that as much happier there. Like, I was, I could sort of tell, you were going through something, 'cause you were just so retracted from the world. And I felt that way too. I sort of almost felt, it was sort of, I felt like I sort of had to dissociate almost just to sort of get through the day. It was a very dark time. - Yeah. - Well, again, thank you for inviting us into that. I think it's something that I want others to understand more of that our journeys are more than sports. (laughing) And they're even actually more than transness in many ways. And it's one of the things I think about, when we talk about athletics and trans people, it gets very polarizing, very biologically based, very nasty, very quickly. And we lose the humanity, but we also lose, I think we don't only lose the humanity of trans people in these places, we also lose the humanity of cis people. Because suddenly, everybody is reduced to their biological capacity to perform in a sport, when actually humans are so much more than that, even too, you know what I mean? And I think that's what gets lost to me. My partner is not an athlete, I mean, she's athletic, but she didn't compete in sports. And sometimes we talk with these things, especially when beginning of your public journey, and she said to me, she was like, it's just sports. Guys, this is just sports. And sports are so important, but also it's just sports. Yeah. I don't know how I wish we could understand that we're all humans trying to survive, and yes, sports are this huge industry, and that's where money comes in. But if we could take a step back from that for a second, and recognize it, actually, why do most people play sports? It's not to win, because most people don't win. Even you, as a champion, have won one national title. Right. Most people, in fact, play sports for fun, right? Yeah. For, I don't know, physical fitness, for body connection, for dissociation, right? Mental health, but you say you still swim recreationally, so I'm curious, like, what do you get out of sports now? Yeah. I think, like, I just, I still love the water. I love how it feels to swim to move my body through the water, and I still enjoy that sense of satisfaction after a good workout, and how it makes my body feel. And so I continue to do that just on my own time, with no benefit outside of the simple pleasure of sport. And also, what you're saying makes me think of how many coaches over the years have set to me and to teammates. Who get really nervous about their performance, about wanting to sort of go a best time, or do whatever goal they wanted to reach, and how so many coaches have said, the most important sort of advice on that is just go out there and have fun, because happy swimmers are fast swimmers. As Mayer said before, and I continue to say happy swimmers are fast swimmers. And when you do it for the joy of the sport, you get the most out of it. You get the joy of swimming and competing, and you go faster, because you can just sort of be free and enjoy. One, and maybe you'll win, and maybe you won't. Right? Like, your performance at NCAAs, you had a first place, which was amazing and very exciting and historic, of course. But you also had a fifth place. You also had an eighth place, right? And I guess I'm wondering, like, was there a stark difference, of course, versus first? But was there a stark difference in how you felt in terms of your success, or did you have the same amount of fun? Especially in my last couple of years of college, where I've been trying to be more cognizant in my appreciation of the sport, is to just. Every race, I just say, I'm going to try my hardest. I'm going to have a good time doing it. I'm going to enjoy the race. And the result is the results. But I'm going to, whatever happens, I'm going to do my best to have to enjoy it. And so that's the mindset I took into all of my races and sees. I'll just add that I think the final for the 100 free does carry a somewhat special place in my heart. Just because it was the last race of my college career. And I got to do it racing Isaac, who was a dear friend and getting to race another. Transperson and Sport was a really incredible experience. Yeah. Oh, that was incredible to watch. I remember that. I think I cried the whole race. Yeah. I still remember after prelims, after my prelim race walking back to our little Ivy League seating area, and looking up at the scoreboard and seeing the finals result and seeing that we're both going to be swimming next to each other. That was awesome. That was so cool. And Isaac did amazing in that. He did great. He did great. Yeah. Okay. This is sort of, we'll start to wrap up. But at that meet, so that's, we're talking about NCAA championships, D1 championships for anybody doesn't know. It was in, in Georgia. And there was quite a bit of protesters there. In fact, it was a little difficult to get into the building a couple of the days because of the protesters. eye from what I know. from talking to you, the atmosphere in the stands was very different from the atmosphere on the deck. Because I heard, at least from you, the deck was actually not that antagonistic. And yet I was getting screamed at in the stands for supporting transactivity. So I'm curious, what was it like on deck? It was, um, yeah, it was very different from, I never went up into the stands, which is good. I'm sure I heard from a family and from you who were there, there was a bit of a mess, say the least. But I don't even swim fans. These are people that flew. Who came in just to protest, just to protest, you know. But anyways, go ahead. What I was saying is that the deck was a much different experience. And I'm absolutely sure there were people on the deck who were not happy that I was there who didn't support me. But nobody like came up to me and was openly antagonistic. And there was actually kind of the opposite where the people who did come up to me, who did have something they wanted to say to me, were very positive and very supportive people who were saying that they were proud of me and they were very supportive of what I was doing. And there was amazing that I was there. And those were, um, just really meaningful to sort of feel that acceptance at a place where it was very easy to feel sort of not wanted. Absolutely. As a very, as a very different experience than the one, the stance by the shun. Right. I found it very telling that many of the people who you actually were racing were supportive of you. And even in your heat, right, the, the Erica Sullivan and also Brooke 40 were very openly supportive, um, made statements to the media and, you know, helped rally other support for you. Um, and, you know, these are people that I've been in connection with as well. Um, very supportive of you. And literally we were a direct competitor. Um, and I, and I think that I, I, I don't want people to miss that. Yeah. Because I think it's interesting that a lot of people who are not in the sport, who are not athletes, who were not involved, um, who are not some parents, although there were some, some parents, of course, that were also having a fit. But a lot of the people who supported you were actually people you were competing against. And then the people who didn't were somewhere else. Um, so I, I think I say that because I kind of it, as we wrap up, I think there's actually more support for us and for trans athletes and for people, um, for, for a trans feminine athlete specifically, I think there's more support than we know. And you know, when we put together that letter, a 300 plus, um, you know, elite level slimmers, we're, we're seeing their, their support for you. Um, I'm curious kind of like, when I think about this, this is how I want it. This is how I, what I want to communicate to trans children. So I'm, I'm wondering what would, what is a message you might want to give to trans kids who might be listening or actually any kid who just wants to be themselves and do what they love? Yeah. I, I think it's the message I want to give that is it can be, it can feel really tough, um, and really lonely and isolating at times. But I think it's important to remember, um, that you're not alone, that there's a huge community of even just trans people who are all here to support you and support each other. And there's an even bigger community of cis people who are, um, very supportive and, and very willing to, to come to the aid of trans people, um, just thinking of, of the, um, many positive messages I've gotten from, uh, trans people. And even a lot of messages from, from cis women, just in support of me and, of trans people in, in support and in general. Yeah. And so I think it's really important to remember that you're not alone in this and that there's, there's this, like, whole community here, here to support you. Yeah. I love that. Unfortunately, I think that hate is very loud and, and love can be quieter. Yeah. I, I think it's, it is really unfortunate that the loudest voices, voices are, are the hateful ones and it's, it's the ones that, that stand out unfortunately. And that's the message to our supporters, though, right? So to the trans kids, no, you're not alone into people who want to get involved in these conversations, regardless of whether or not they understand our identities or they understand all the, you know, scientific facts about trans women and sports or whatever, help, help us, right? Yeah. If you are in a place of, of feeling support, say that. Yeah. It's, it's one of the, the most sort of impactful and, and easy things you can do as, as like a cis ally to trans people is be loud and be vocal in your support. And, cis and, other cis and trans people know you support trans people. Yeah. Cause it helps, um, reassure trans people that there are people out there who support me. And it, it may change other cis people's mind to sort of have that view, that, that voice too. Allyship is not quiet. It does not bystand. It is not inactive, right? Allyship is something that I think a lot of people are afraid to step into because they're afraid of occurring the same discrimination that we experience. And I think my ask of other people is have one conversation, right? You listen to this conversation and you're excited, perhaps about supporting trans people, maybe in sports, maybe elsewhere, maybe just generally, how those conversations with people around you, especially with people who are sitting on their supposed feminist arguments. Yeah. I think having these conversations is so important because I think you're right. Those interpersonal connections, regardless of it with a trans person or with somebody else you love can help us expand our humanity. Is there anything else you want to share with the audience before we wrap up? Yeah. I think I summed it up all there just to trans people, no matter where you are, even if you're in somewhere that has passed a lot of anti-trans legislation, just know that you're not alone out there and that there's a community here fighting for you. I think trans people are some of the most resilient people I've ever met. Absolutely. I have no doubts that one day we'll get to a place where we're past these bills where it is true everywhere that we can be ourselves in before we are, but it's going to take some time and so that's why the community is so important. Leah, people can find you on Instagram @Leakehtomas. I'm very okay Thomas. I know you're practicing sharing a bit more on Instagram and I'm excited to see what you share. Keep an eye out for that. Yeah, so everybody follow me on Instagram. That'll be fun. And hopefully we'll have you back sometime. Thank you so much. Love too. Many, many thanks to Leah Thomas for speaking with me. So here's my response to answer today's question. Is it fair to include transgender women in women's sports? Surprise. Yes, I do think the inclusion of transgender girls and women in women and girl sports is absolutely fair. I've always been baffled by the assumption that trans people transition in order to play a sport or in order to win a sport. When in reality, sport is not the forefront of our transitions. If anything, being athletes complicates our experiences as trans people. I know I would have transitioned sooner had I not been an athlete because transition meant possibly losing my sport. And that was the same for Leah. Trans people do not transition in order to play sports. Trans people transition in order to live. And we happen to also play sports. At this point, a lot of cis people usually push back by saying, I don't want biological boys competing with girls. And the first thing that I must remind you of is that language is important. When a trans girl competes on a girl's team, there are still no boys on that team. If you want to talk about biological differences, say that instead. Name those. But let's go a little bit beyond language. In sport, there are two main arenas where people participate. The first is elite, Olympics, pro sports, collegiate sports. The other is not elite, like rec leagues or children's sports. The overwhelming majority of people fall into that second category, the non elite category. More specifically, most of those athletes are children. In the case of children, most have not gone through puberty. So there are actually no significant biological differences that impact sports. The only real difference is the presence or absence of a penis and nobody plays sports with their penis or lack thereof. If they do, we have a very different problem on our hands. And most sports are actually about fun. They're not about winning. Only 2% of high school athletes become collegiate athletes and only a very small percentage of those go to the Olympics. For most kids, sports are a place to learn about themselves and develop important skills like tenacity and teamwork, hand-eye coordination and body awareness. Everybody deserves access to these things, including transgender children. And I know, most people will just go straight for the biological advantage, quote unquote, argument, saying that some alleged biological advantage makes it unfair for trans women to compete with other women. But let's consider a few points. Biological diversity exists everywhere in sport, in every demographic of people and every demographic of women. That's kind of what sports are based on. I mean, if every body was exactly the same, there would be no competition. Sports depend on the fact that bodies are different and they perform differently. When those differences exist in the men's category, most people don't care. In fact, they praise those differences. Let's look at Michael Phelps, winning this Olympian of all time. You probably know who he is. He's super tall. He's got this really long torso and he's got a really wide wingspan, all specifically advantages in swimming. He also produces half the levels of lactic acid than the average athlete, not the average person, the average athlete. And all of these things give him a massive biological advantage. But his biological differences are celebrated. When they look at him, they say, "Wow, what an amazing biological anomaly." Does he have biological advantages? Absolutely. But do people say that that's grounds for disqualification? Oh, Michael Phelps is too tall or his wingspan's too long or his lactic acid is too low. Therefore, we should disqualify him. No, people don't. do that, they let him have his body as it is. On the flip side, let's look at the women's category. Maybe Caster Semenya, a black queer cisgender, so not transgender woman, who's also intersex, she's an Olympic champion, but when she won, people accused her of being too masculine and they demanded that her body was examined. When they found she was intersex, they instated rules that made it so that she had to change her testosterone in order to compete. The most recent rules demand that she undergo six months of hormone suppression before she is allowed to compete internationally. Michael Phelps is allowed to keep his body as it is and in fact he's celebrated for all of his biological advantages, but Caster Semenya and other women like her are excluded. This extends to transgender women too, when a trans woman is different immediately it's called unfair, but the reality is that there are so many women who might be "too tall" or too strong or too fast, and so this debate is actually not about fairness. The attempt to exclude transgender women means you actually have to know which ones are trans and that endeavour requires that you police the entire women's category, which means you police all women. The legal enforcing of policing women's bodies in sport will destroy the women's category, not the inclusion of transgender women.