Sheinelle Jones on Grief and Joy

Welcome to all there is wherever you are in the world and in your grief, I'm glad you're here. You're not alone. It's been a bittersweet week for me. I finished my last story at 60 minutes after more than 20 years there. I left because I wanted to spend more time with my two little boys, Wyatt and Sebastian, but it's hard to leave a job that you've always loved. The good news is that it makes it easier for me to do more of these podcasts, which I'm grateful for. My guest on this episode is Chanel Jones. In January, she began hosting along with Jenna Bush Hager today with Jenna and Chanel, the fourth hour of the Today Show. In May, 2025, a Chanel's husband, Uche OJ, died from glioblastoma. They met when they were in college and have three kids, a 16-year-old and 13-year-old twins. Chanel has a new book out through mom's eyes, which is full of life lessons and stories from the mother is well known, highly accomplished people. But our conversation is about the loss of Uche and Chanel's grandmother who died seven months later at the end of 2025. Thank you for doing this. You have been, and I mean this so sincerely, the soundtrack to my healing, you along with all the people that you've talked with, when you hear other people share, it is healing, and you don't feel as isolated, you feel less alone. And so I feel like you've created this beautiful quilt of nurturing our hearts, and so I am honored to be part of this quilt. It is still so recent. And the truth of the matter is, after he was diagnosed, I still thought he would beat it. Like you couldn't tell me that he wasn't going to beat it. It was just a matter of finding which trial or something, but I knew that he was going to beat it. Even though all of the evidence was very clear, I still didn't believe it. The first time that doctors recommended hospice, I said no. I wanted him to be able to be home. He wanted to be home, and I was like, I'll do it. And he was strong, and I was trying to do all the things, you know, lifting, and all the things. And we have a lot of stairs, so that became a bit of a challenge. And I did it for maybe two or three months on my own. There are people who do this for years, and anyone listening, if you are a caretaker, God bless you. I just did an interview with a woman who has a very aggressive form of brain cancer, and she's trying to prepare her kids. I saw her story. She's writing letters to her kids for the future. My mom's dad died when she was 15 months old, and she had this fantasy her entire life that he had left her some letters somewhere that might arrive in the mail. And I sort of had that fantasy from my dad as well. I tried. I tried. It was the only time things got a little, because if I say, hey, I think you should write something for the kids. That means that I think you're not going to make it. And there was one point where I said, once you write it, and then at our daughter's wedding, we'll read it, and we'll show that you're still here. And I think for him to write it would have been accepting that maybe it wasn't going to go that way his way, and I don't think he was willing to do that. And I think by the time he was like, okay, maybe I think it was probably too late. Towards the end, I started videotaping everything was before I didn't. He also played a lot of instruments. My son plays a lot of instruments. And so he would come in, and my son would be playing the guitar, and I would show him playing the guitar and show my husband's face. And the pride that he would have when kind of was playing the guitar, or my daughter's in music theater, and she's Matilda, I would come and show him, and then I would record him being proud. Even now, I have so much that I haven't given them yet, because I think it's like endoses. I can only handle so much, so I know that they can only handle so much. I mean, how do you do this with kids? As a mom, it's tough, because you don't want to make them sad. You have three teenagers. So we're all in one chat, and I'll be tempted to be like, oh my gosh, this crossed my feet. But then I'm worried that what if they're leading school, and they get it, or what if they're with their friends. So there's a tap dance, as their mom, allowing us all to be vulnerable, and there's a time and a space for us to reflect. And also a time for them to show we can't move on, we can move forward with that. I think the biggest pain I carry now, and I am not even to a year, the biggest pain I have is not my own. And trust me, like, he's all I've known. I didn't date. I was 19, you know. It's not my pain. It's that I can't fix it. As a mother, you just want to fix it, or your kids, you don't want them to hurt. I can't fix this. And I think when he passed the blow that it was, and the grief and all of it, like as the mama bear, for me not to be able to fix it, even now is excruciating. It's excruciating that I can't take that pain away, that they have to learn how to deal with it and wrestle with it and hold it and make it make sense. And so I'm left trying to figure out how to nurture their hearts. There aren't a lot of resources and conversations and things like this, but it's part of the reason why I'm willing to sit and have this conversation, because I couldn't find it. I joked with Savannah that I went to YouTube and Googled Black Widow, and I got spiders. It was true. I remember I was by myself, and I'm like, okay, who's been in this position before? And I knew I had to deal with it publicly. So I was like, okay, who am I going to be? I found videos of Jackie Kennedy. And I remember watching her and being like, oh my God, how did she, she looks like she has so much grace and poise, like, how? When I looked up like Coretta Scott King, you know, every time I closed my eyes and I pictured those women, they always had such grace. I told my friend that he's like, I love DJ, but he was not Martin Luther King or JFK. And I'm like, I know, but you know what I mean, you know, I was trying to find out who I wanted to be. I think I mentioned it to Maria Shriver, who was like one of my TV aunties, like my Mount Rushmore of aunties, and she said, you can only be you. Do your kids talk about it now? Do you tell stories about all over the house? We have one of those digital picture frames. But you know what's starting to rattle me a little bit is that they're all current pictures within the last couple of years of the surfing and the soccer games and the weddings and the holidays. And it's beautiful Mount Rush. But what's starting to rattle me is that as we move with each passing day, he stays the same. And I know that the kids are going to get older. And so the frames are there and everything is there and the pictures are there and right now we're all still the same. But it's hard because it sucks that he didn't get to feels like not a fair shot to keep going. So I wrestle with it sometimes, keeping those things out. But then I'm like, no, we're going to keep them out. We're going to keep the pictures up. We're going to still talk about it. And I had to learn how to parent differently because I am not him and he was strict, you know, and I'm like, so I've had to find that. I remember early on, I said something like, your dad would not. And then I realized what I was saying. And I don't know. There's no template for for this. Should I not have done that? Your father would have never or is it you know better? Your father would have never. I don't know. And so I'm kind of living it in real time. How I want to parent. And there are some things though that I can't. And so I've learned to ask for help. I don't know how to play soccer. Our first vacation was horrible. A woman I met who has been also a glioblastoma. She warned me. Be careful with the first trip after he passes. Maybe bring someone or bring some cousins or something. And I did not listen. And it was horrible. They looked at an ocean and there's no one to surf with. So now I've learned I bring cousins or I bring people. I'm still trying to figure out how to mother. You know what I was looking forward to? Heartbreak. Like that was going to suck. And I was going to have to be like, have some chocolates sit down. He's a jerk. Not this kind of heartbreak. And not only are your hearts breaking, but so is mine. We're going to take a short break. Coming up, I talked with Chanel about the loss of her grandmother, seven months after UJ died. I've been grieving for so long that I don't think I have truly grieved her because then it's too much. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. We're going to talk about rethinking how we die. How we think about death in the first place greatly informs how we live. Our guest is Dr. B.J. Miller. He's a hospice and palliative care physician. We are aging as a people. This is a worldwide phenomenon that we are aging and therefore getting closer to the end of life on some level as a group. It's not at all surprising that you'll see a revving up of interest, services, and also sort of anxiety that pushes us away from this subject and makes us cling to life. Listen to Chasing Life streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to my conversation with Chanel Jones. I was sitting on a beach in Jamaica and my girlfriend was like, "It's okay to cry." I think it was the first time I had just really let it go. I just said, "Where are you? Where are you? Are you okay? Where are you?" We are in the middle of the ocean. I was like this rock and we took a picture of it. Here comes the yellow butterfly and we both went. And then she was like, "Is that you, UJ?" And I said, "Oh my God. Stop it." And she was like, "No, just if it's you or if it's anything that Chanel needs to know, just let her know that you're fine." You're okay. Can you come back? S and me, a butterfly is not coming back. And sure enough. (mimicking) And we're like (gasps) and I was like, oh my god. And to this day, everywhere I go, when I allow myself, and I need it, I see one. And I'm like, how? You can see a yellow butterfly in Harlem. I don't know, but I see them. So he finds me and I think it's because I've allowed myself to open my heart to it. You sit somewhere that you feel like you've had to keep running. I certainly know that feeling very well. And I've done that for most of my life. Do you feel like you are grieving? I am a walking ball of grief. (laughing) Like, when I tell you I hold two things, I know who I want to be. And so the woman I want to be has joy. The woman I want to be continues to do new things and experience new things, but she's hurting. And her heart is so heavy. And so in order to do that, I guess I'm going to have to bring it with me. And carry in both. And I used to feel in the days after he passed and before I returned to work, that I was afraid of grief. It was like scary. I wanted it to go away. Get out of my life and go away. But now I see it differently. I see grief now. It's like this beautiful stream that I have around me. And so I go to the stream when I want to remember. I go to the stream when I want to reflect. I go to the stream when I want to think about him. And it's peaceful and it loves me back. It holds the things that I love. I choose not to put the pain part in it. I'm still working on that part. I'm sure it will always hurt, but I would like to work on that piece. And so when I tell you that I carry two things and I'm a walking ball of grief, it doesn't mean that I'm crying all the time. It just means I go to my stream a lot. Do you see joy as the opposite of grief? No. I don't. I think it is all part of this complicated life that we don't understand. When you grow up in the church, and there's an answer for everything, so the answer is faith. And then I got to be 47, and the guy I've been with since I was 19 died. So then it's like, oh, okay, what do I really believe? And what do I really think about this? And so I've had to really dig deep and think about how I wrestle with it. 'Cause frankly, up until this point, you know, it's been pretty great. Our life's not perfect. But for the most part, I've been able to make it make sense. This is the first thing that I can't really make it make sense. I used to worry that I wouldn't be able to laugh again or I wouldn't have my joy. And oh my God, I'm gonna cry at what they dance together. My joy is heightened because I know how precious it is to be able to have the good moments. And so something is funny. It's freaking funny. If something is sad, it's really sad. This for me, even though I'm talking about something that is awful, this is joy for me because it's a beautiful conversation. And I hope we can do a lot of good. I talked about not being able to find me, even people of color, young girls of color. Like, there just aren't a lot of, and we hurt too. And I just don't see us. I think culturally we're taught to be the strong ones and the strong women and we're the bedrock. And so as hard as it is for a lot of people to grieve, I realized that I have layers that I didn't even know that I had that make it harder to be vulnerable or to allow myself to have this pain. There's a cultural thing, there's a generational thing. I looked to my grandmother when she lost my grandpa. They've been married for 69 years and she's a pillar in Wichita, where I grew up. He was and when things are hard, we be out to dinner. You know what happens after we eat? And I'm like, let's get up. My mom and my grandmother are taking out their lipstick. They're opening the thing. We were this. We're not this. Your grandmother just died. Yeah, I didn't see it coming. She was so proud of me. She was the first woman of color on the school board in my hometown. Tough cookie. She smoked. She'd have her long silver hitch. She'd have it in a bun like she was that. And I remember one time she had someone to sign a situation in her like 80s or 70s. And I was the only one with her. And I was holding her nose because it was bleeding. And I remember her looking at me and seeing the fear of my eyes. She stopped colds her key that day. Never smoked again. She was a classically trained pianist, born in St. Louis. And my grandfather was one of the only African-American physicians in my town, and his father was a physician. So I come from like excellence, black excellence as they call it. And my grandfather ended up being this huge part of our lives. And my grandmother ran for the school board. And they were just this huge force. And when he died, she didn't want to go. She was like, no, not going. And then somebody said, go get Chanel. I went in there, and I looked at her. And I'm like, he got up. At his service, we were like, hold on to each other. And even when Uche passed, she hadn't been on a plane 20 years, but she was there. And there's the picture I have, the last picture. Oh my god, it is the last picture. I didn't realize that's right now. The last picture I have of the two of us, she was wiping my face. Come on. Get it together, you got this? She started a huge choirs. It's called a rise. It stands for African-Americans, renewing interest and spiritual ensemble. I've filmed this video on that. I just want to play a little bit of it. Oh, you're going to get me doing the ugly cry. I picked an upie part. Thanks. And that he has the whole world in his hands. See how she's moving and dancing. Oh my god. Now you used to say, if you can't see Joe Brown, it's going to get it out of you. Look at her. I love it. Good. [MUSIC PLAYING] That's my tissue. She'd say, "Sing now." I love it. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] Oh my goodness, Christ. She's the folks in Charlottesville all right now. Oh, that's amazing. That's amazing. That is who I am. I grew up listening to all of those songs and Negro spirituals, which is what they are. And she used to always tell me the stories of Negro spirituals when black folks were down. This is what they would sing. They would sing these songs to get themselves back up. And she would say, "We come from good stock honey." That's what she would say. And so now I am pulling on all of those things that she poured into me. And what I also realized is I grieved Uche for so long. And I'm sure somebody will know if this is a term I don't know, but I pre-grieved, too, because you know it's coming, even though I was in denial. And then I grieved Uche, and so I've been grieving for so long that don't think I have truly grieved her because then it's too much. I'm going to say, oh, you're so strong. You're there for your kids and all of the things. And grieving him has been so much. And so with her, I've had to like tuck it just a little bit. Like I can feel it, but like if I allow myself to truly explore, you know, what she means to me, I might have to take a personal day tomorrow. You may not see Jenna in general. But what happens is, oh, do I have my phone, I'm going to share something with you. It's my screen saver on my phone. So when I was at my grandmother's funeral, I was like, that was when they put her over my grandpa. It was a cloudy day, dark just for that moment. And I was sitting there and I just happened to have my phone. And then when they put her over, I was like, and I like took a picture of the sky and then I put it down. And now it's been my screen saver ever since, because this tells me that she's OK. She's OK. She's OK. She's with Grandpa Pa. There's a song that Jenna, your co-host, sent to you. It's called "Brighter Days" by a Nigerian artist. His name is Blessing Offer. And I didn't know it then. But he is from the same tribe as my husband. But I was having a really tough time. And I loved it. And so fast forward to me getting the job on Jenna and Chanel. And they surprised me. And they said, hey, the guy that sang that song, we booked him for the show February 4th. And I went, I said, do you know the significance of that day? And they said, no, I said, let's do chase birthday. Then I felt all emotional. And the one thing about Uche, he was proud, my Nigerian. Moved here when he was 14, but like proud. And was always trying to get these Nigerian artists on the show. [BLANK_AUDIO] So when he came on and he sang that song through my tears, it was like, you got him. You got somebody. This wouldn't play a little brighter days. Hmm. Oh, never lived through times like these. Oh, if you're trying hard to breathe in the dark, in the dark, I know there's going to be some brighter day. Yes, sir. I swear that love will find you when you're off me. I feel it in me like the beating of life in my veins. I know there's going to be some brighter day. How beautiful is that? The part that resonated with me was about love finding you in the dark, because that's when it's harnessed, right? Kids are sleeping, shows over, all the things, it's all gone, and that night you're left with just you. And for me, in the king's size bed where he's not there, and that to me is the hardest part. And so for love to find me in the dark, it's like, please, so that song just continues to speak to me in new ways. You wake up really early in the morning to do your show, and you've always had to tip toe in the dark in the morning, so it's not to wake up, your husband, and you had a realization recently. That could turn the lights on. It was my first day back in the air. I was like, tip around the dark, and then I was like, you're not there. And I remember turning on the lights, and then looking over there, like, sometimes you'd be like, oh, you put the sheet over his head, and yeah, so I'm so torn. And because I'm still new in it, there's a part of me that sees the beauty, and I'm proud of myself for how I'm able to wrap my mind around it. I do see beauty in being able to have these conversations. I feel like I have been able to get a special key. And the key comes out of cost, and when you have this grief key, it unlocks the door to a club that you're in and that I'm in and others are in, and it allows us to be in the special matrix of, I think, understanding and clarity or at least the recognition that we're in a search for. And it's just really a beautiful way to live life because it's almost like you have another sense that's built into it. So I think that's a beautiful thing. But if you ask me if I want that key, like at what cost, I'm torn on it, and I'm okay with it for me, it sucks, but I'm almost 50. So I feel like I'm halfway through. What's hard to hear in that is what my kids now have to carry. Then as a mom, I'm like, "Oh, I hate that my kids have to deal with that." My little guy said one time we were in the kitchen, my 13-year-old son, he goes, "Mommy, I see things as like a BCAD." And I'm like, "Yeah, that's all." And he goes, "No, no, before cancer after death." And I was like, "Whoa." And I see my life that way too. So I'm trying to learn how to embrace Chanel 2.0. I grieved her two days before I went back on the air. I said, "Okay, I've grieved, Uche, I've grieved all the things I'm going to take two days before I go back on the air to grieve the me that I loved because she's gone. There are parts to me that are still. The person you were. Yeah, I liked her. She worked really hard. She drew a picture of herself as a news lady in 5th grade, only yellow sheet of construction paper with helmet hair and hoop earrings. And you told your grandmother in 5th grade? Yeah. And she was like, "Ooh, I could see you being a reporter." I've worked so hard to get this. And so I had to grieve her because she's changed. And so now I am getting to know the new me. And there are parts about her that I think she's a badass. And I really. I like her. I respect her. But I'm still getting to know her. I always ask everybody in the podcast, is there something you've learned in your grief that would be helpful for others? I think it's important if you're willing and you certainly don't have to be, but to either share or to do what I did. I would. Every day, I'm the train of hospice. I was listening to you, but just something to heal your heart and just not to shut yourself out. Get's important. Not to tuck it. It's so easy to go down this like dark grief hole and it's like, you can't breathe. My prayer is that this conversation, things like that will at least just be an oxygen mask. It can be very lonely, just know that you're not alone and you're going to be okay. They would want you to be okay. Thank you so much. If you have thoughts you'd like to share about my conversation with Chanel or about your own experiences with grief, we'd love to hear from you. You can leave a comment at CNN.com/AllThereIs or leave us a voicemail at 404-827-1805. You can watch Chanel weekdays on the 4th hour of the Today Show, today with Jenna and Chanel. Her new book, Through Mom's Eyes, is available now also. It features life lessons and stories from celebrities' moms that she's interviewed on the Today Show. On Thursday, May 28th, we'll be bringing you another new episode of the podcast. It's my conversation with actress Mariska Hargote, star of law and order SVU. Her mom was already famous movie star in the 50s and 60s, Jane Mansfield. She died in a car crash when Mariska was 3 years old. Mariska was in the car when her mom was killed and has felt the echoes of that loss and grief her whole life. Something has always been missing and there was always just this incredible sadness and I remember when I was in grade school, they'd have the mommy daughter T or something like that and I used to be so sad when I would look at other little girls that looked like they're mom and it was such a primitive need to look like someone, look like your mom, but also for me, it was the double whammy because as a child, I did always feel separate. I just did. I was kind of like on this island by myself, my whole life. My conversation with Mariska Hargote comes out Thursday, May 28th. You can also check out recent episodes of all there is live. My streaming show that's got companion to this podcast. If you've never watched it before, it has a lot of very moving interviews with podcast listeners about the losses they've experienced. You can check that out at our griefpagecennad.com/allthereis. Thanks for listening. access.