It's Bob and everybody, it's Logan Murdock here from The Ringer, the 2025-2026 NBA season is here and we got your group podcast needs covered. On The Ringer NBA show, be sure to check out Group Chat with Justin Barrier, Rob Mahoney and Jake Hyleman on Sundays and Wednesdays and real ones. On Tuesdays and Fridays with myself, Rajabell, and Howard Beck, get your Ringer-related NBA podcast fix on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And of course, come find us on YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at the Handle Ringer NBA. Welcome to The Ringer WNDS, so I'm here at Soki and I am the luckiest girl in the world because I made the genius prophetic move, inviting Shesirano, author of many books, including Expensive Basketball, to and also a Las Vegas Aces Superfan to join the show. The morning after Chelsea Gray, we already know as the most clutch human being on Earth, forget, forget basketball, forget women's basketball, forget sports, clutcher than captain Sully, you know, flutcher than the Apollo astronauts. I think you could, I think you could force Gumpher into any moment in history and she would avert disaster. And that's what she did for the Las Vegas Aces yesterday, again, so my gosh, would they play? Who did they play yet? Atlanta. They played Atlanta and she had not only the game winning steal against Alicia Gray because as she said, she knew Alicia Gray was going to go left. She also out of the Jackie Young jump ball had the wear with all to say, oh, I have a mismatch, I'm going to get in the post and I'm going to hit my patented mid-range fadeaway to win the game. Shay, are you walking on a cloud right now or are you so just over the notion of the regular season mattering? Are you so up in the clouds that you're not even going to tap in and get excited about things until the post season? I always, I always have the same thing whenever a situation like this comes up. If we lose in the regular season, I'm like, I don't care, then by the may at all, then we don't, we don't keep scored during the regular season. We keep scored with championships in Las Vegas. That's what we do. That's what I say when we lose. But when we win, this is an indictment of the other team and it is a proof of concept of our team. We're the greatest team in the league. We have the clutches player and I think we have the smartest coach in the league. Everything was going wrong. We're up big. This is an easy game. Don't worry about it. And then here comes Atlanta doing Atlanta things. There's a very annoying basketball team to play against because they just don't stop. They're just coming and coming and coming and coming and that building was getting louder and louder and louder. Like are we seriously about to give up this entire lead? We give up the whole lead. It's all gone. It's all gone. What does Becky do? Becky does what Becky does. We've seen her do it in the playoffs last year and a year before that and a year before that. She said, we need a bucket. Let's give it to our Tyrannosaurus Rex, Asia Wilson. Just go get a basket. We're not even going to call a play. Just get the ball to Asia at the top of the key. And then we're back up by two and we're like, all right, we're going to be fine here. But yes, to answer your questions, the long way of saying. When we win in the regular season, I care deeply about it. And when we lose in the regular season, I just say, I don't even fucking care. Nobody cares if you beat Asia Wilson and practice, beat her in the postseason. That's honestly the smartest way to go about it for an ACES team that perpetually just doesn't seem to seem to go up and down in the regular season. I thought that this was going to be one of those games, not going to lie to you. They were dominating in the first half and then Atlanta, they have Medina O'Cott have the best game of her career, South Carolina, Rookie. For the first time ever, I think, Asia Wilson walked into that arena in Atlanta and it was Angel Reese's home opener. And she got booed because usually that is where the South Carolina fans come. And they just decided this is going to be like a coronation for their favorite daughter. And for the first time, they realized, oh, Alicia Gray is actually a game cock too. That was funny, as much as Atlanta lost that game, it's still to me in a strange way, felt like a moment for them as a franchise because it was like, oh, all the things that you would want Atlanta basketball to look like on the women's side, it's actually starting to look like those things from a fat perspective and from like just the juice in the arena. But scoreboard. Right? They lost. But they lost, sound great, sound great, but they lost. Congrats on the loud arena in your loss. Yeah. So Shay, what is your favorite part of this early AC season so far? You know, I mean, I could pick out a number of different things. I was very interested in seeing how this Kennedy Carter experiment was going to play out. That seems to have gone well thus far. I'm always excited to watch Asia to watch Chelsea, Jackie, Jewel, everybody. But I think the thing I'm most excited about is to the thing that you mentioned a second ago, last season when we won, the regular season, people were using it as like a, this is why the aces can't win in the playoffs because they're playing this sort of up and down basketball. And if we get rid of the opening night loss, which was stupid, I don't know why that happened or how that happened, but you get rid of that and they're the, they're right now the best team in the league. They're the most dominant team in the league. And that to me is very interesting because it seems like like they're just going to go, all right, well, let's, let's see what happens when we play like this for a whole season. Can we just sort of bully everybody else off the block and then run away with it in the postseason? I'm excited to see if they, if they keep this up, if they keep playing at this level, which I don't know why they couldn't, but if they keep playing at this level, what does that look like? You know what I mean? What does this team rank for you talent wise of all the Becky Hammond, Asia aces teams? Oh man. I think, I think just pure talent wise, you probably have to put them first, right? Because, because I don't know, is that where you have them as well? I will think so. I mean, like, it's, it's hard to look at any way, honestly. Right. They've had, like, they've had, you know, Candice Parker on the team. They've had moments where they've been able to bring Derek a happy off the bench. Like, they've had really good teams. They are kind of like the merchants of having six women of the year as well. It seems like they are, like, every kind of great six women kind of comes out of that. Like, they've had Kelsey Plum play that role, Derek, a happy Kennedy or Jewel could play that role this season. But yeah, I think so. I think, I think so as well. And part because, like, obviously, we don't have Kelsey anymore. And that was a tough break, but we got Jewel in her place. And then now it feels like we lost Kelsey, but we have Jewel and Kennedy. And that's better than just having Kelsey. And it feels like this version of Asia is better than like the two years ago version of Asia, which is crazy to say out loud. But she's, that's like the level that she's playing at. Jackie Young has gotten better every single year. Chelsea Gray, you don't worry about Chelsea Grand 'til the last two minutes of every game. And then she becomes like a dominant force, Smith is playing great like just pure talent-wise. This team looks better than all of the other aces. Now, I don't know that I would pick them if they were to say let's play, let's play the May 2026 aces against the June 2025 aces. Like I don't know that this team can beat them yet because they haven't had enough reps. By the end of the season, maybe, but right now, if you're playing the championship team from last season, I may pick that version of them in a head-to-head matchup. I don't know what it's going to look like in eight weeks. I really like the idea of Asia versus Asia on the court. I do too. That's the only player you can put her up against. Who else could, who else could, who else can you like have stand opposite of her? Nobody. There's nobody in the league anymore. Yeah, but here's the thing though, right now. So the aces are four and one, they're number one in the standings, they lost that Phoenix game. I think, honestly, because they struggle in like when they have a pregame high voltage moment. It was Ring Night. Phoenix was mad. The aces were celebrating. They did this. They do this on Ring Night. They've done this when Asia wins MVP awards. They kind of have been spoiled with a lot of these kinds of nights and they usually don't come out very well. They've been pretty much perfect. And I think the Asia of this season is just slightly better than the Asia of last season. As we know, she improves something in her game every season. Seeing her efficiency from the three-point line this season early is absolutely terrifying. And it led some play in so many different ways. She's always been a pretty versatile player, but now you've got like they play the Connecticut sun. She has 45 points. Only misses what she missed like three shots, two shots became the only player in WNBA history to score 45 points on 80% shooting. That's nuts. Funny enough, Paige came really close last year with 44 on 79. Um, but
She's the only player ever do this. That's a game where they just spam her in the post. - Yeah. - They know that Connecticut's front court, rather, can't do anything about her. This game against Atlanta, they have her coming off screens like she's a wing. They have her handling the ball from the three-point line, making these drives, like giving Angel Reese hell. Angel Reese had probably one of the worst games I've ever seen her play. And Asia had everything to do with that on both ends of the court, but the funny thing, too, is like, she's cruising right now. She's cruising to all of this. That, to me, speaks to how good the Aces are this season on the offensive end, where, like, I think, only 75%, 80% of her buckets are unassisted, right? So she's only taking like, or rather the other way around, she's only taking like 20% of her shots unassisted. I don't know that the game has ever looked easier for her, and that's a function both of where she is as a player, and also just the fact that the Aces have the continuity, they know her, and they just have so much damn offensive talent. They have, like, a new death line up when they put Kennedy and Lloyd on the court together. They go for it out, like, small ball with Asia at the five. Cheyenne Parker-Tais has looked nice. I know it's only five games in, but it's just really hard not to get excited about the possibilities with this team. - Here's what I'm excited about. And I'm going to say this part quiet or real quiet. - I like when it was for on the podcast. - I'm going to say it real quiet, okay? 'Cause you mentioned-- - Okay, everybody lean in, everybody lean in less. - You mentioned has the game ever looked easier for Asia Wilson, and I would say has the game ever looked easier for anybody, anybody, like, that's the level that she's operating at right now. You can make the argument out that she's the greatest whoever do it, like, you know what I mean? It's just you can do that now. You can do that, has it ever looked easier for anybody? It's crazy. I research this, I'm going to go back to my normal voice. I remember researching this. I did a chapter on Asia Wilson in the expensive basketball book that you mentioned. And I was looking at how her career has changed from when she was beatable in the playoffs to when she became unbeatable in the playoffs. 'Cause you mentioned every postseason, she like adds a new thing to her game. And the thing that she added from when they lost to the Phoenix Mercury in that game five, and that's like crushing loss when she got her shoplock by Brittany Griner. From that season to the next season, she just, she was like, I'm gonna shoot threes now. And this is not a joke. This is not, I'm not making up a thing here. Her, the number of shots that she attempted from three point range from that season to the next season went up four thousand percent. And she, four thousand percent. And she shot it at like an efficient range. I mean, at an efficient rate. So yeah, it's just, there's just something inside of her that says, I have to keep getting better. And that's only in the like, that's only in the upper, upper level of players who are already dominant, who are already the, regarded as the best in the game. And they just keep saying, well, what's another weapon I could add? What's another dangerous thing I could add to my game? And she's doing that. She keeps doing that. And it's, I'm so glad that I picked her as my player when they drafted her of like, I'm gonna just attach my fandom to one player and let's see what happens. And it was thankfully, Aja Wilson, but what a time. - Well, you've had a very char, charmed fandom as a basketball fan. You've gone from Tim Duncan. - It's great. - To Victor Wembenyama to Aja Wilson. So that's, look, honestly, like, next time you pick a player to follow, I'm probably just gonna be right behind you 'cause it just seems like a shortcut to joy. I don't think it's an argument. I think she's already the best player of the time. - There it is. - There it is. - Here's the, it's just not. Like, when you look at the accolades, she's had three, already has three of the best five PER seasons of all time. Already has a record for most points in a season ever. Has more MVP than anybody else. - Crazy. - Is only 29 years old, has three titles. Really, all she needs is, honestly, that fourth title is what will make it completely an arguable. That is what has her, you know, up there with Maya, right? Like Maya Moore is probably the only argument that you can make as a better player than Aja Wilson, who also, you know, decided to retire kind of in the midst of her prime. That's really the only what if right now against Aja Wilson. Everybody else, she's already lapped and she's already this age and it's so rare for a player to be 29 years old and we already know this about her. Like, where do you see, how often do you see that in sports? That's Jordan, second three P, Tiger pretty much, like, you know, from the point he was 21 years old on Wayne Gretzky. That's the actual, Eglond she's on. She really has nothing left to prove in the WNBA anymore. And the beautiful thing about this ACIS team is usually when they don't have much to prove, they don't play very well. (laughing) But this season just feels a little bit different. I also, when you talk about that 2020 finals loss, they had Bill Lambier as a coach back then. - Oh man. - Is that season the best argument for firing your coach even though you went to the finals ever? - Yes, yes, yes, because Becky steps in and all of a sudden we can't be beat. And I remember watching the Bill Lambier ACIS and just be like, what the fuck are we doing right now? Why are we not getting the ball to Aja? Why are we never shooting a three? Why are we, you know what I mean? Like he played a very specific style of basketball or wanted the team to. I was so happy when they got rid of him. I think I mentioned this to you over email, but I saw Becky at the movies. My family and I had, we went to go watch a goat when goat came out. And so it was me and my wife, my youngest son and two of my nieces. And we were just in there watching the movie. We came out, somebody had wandered off to the restroom so we were standing there waiting. And then just Becky Hammond comes walking down the hallway with her family out of goat. Also, we were sitting, I watched a movie with Becky Hammond is what I was telling everybody. - You watched goat with one of the goats. - And here's what's embarrassing. When I saw her, I called her coach. Is it her coach? Like she was my coach. I was so embarrassed afterwards. She just came walking right past me. Hey coach, big fan, shake her hand. She smiled and wandered off. What did embarrassment? - Did you know her before that? Or was that the first time you came out? - No, I had seen her at a couple of spurs of games. She usually sits in the same little open air box that the players, you see them during the game. They'll be like, "Oh Tim Duncan's here." They all sit in the same general area. I saw her in one of those one time. She was just sitting there. She was just, we're winning. This birds are winning. She's just sitting there scowling the whole time. Just man-faced, but that was the first time I ever talked to her. And the only two are the only words I had ever said to her, were, "Hey coach, big fan." And that was it. That's all. (laughing) That was the big dog. - What a jackass. - Well, that's great. I'm sure she appreciated it. Were you scared? I would be intimidated. - I was. - I had to ask her a question last night. I was like, "Oh God." Actually, I only know her that question. So one of the things that's great about Becky is she simplifies the game. She empowers her players. It's part of what, I think to your point, a lot of what she does is give the ball to Asia, get out of the way. Run a Chelsea, Asia, pick and roll. They're the two most clutch players in the league. You're gonna be, you're gonna be, you're gonna be fine. We've seen so many players improve, really find their confidence, regain their confidence under her. And the latest sort of project that they've taken on is Kennedy Carter, who is, by all accounts, just one of the best scores I've ever seen. I have more talent in her fingertips than just about anybody that I've ever seen, played basketball. Self-proclaimed best score in the world. Happy to play alongside the best player. And the one, she's not wrong. She's not actually wrong. When you look at her raw talent, she's like one of the best isolation players I've ever seen. She never needs a screen. She never, and that's, that to me, is like one of the most underrated type of players because if you don't need a screen, it's so hard to W. She's awesome, by all accounts. I think she shouldn't like 90% from the rim or something. Like we can go through the numbers, but Kennedy Carter is electric. She's probably like one of the most Allen Ivers encoded players the WNBA has ever seen. I don't know that I've ever seen that combination of like electricity, explosion, playing with your heart on your sleeve, the emotions of volatility, as I have with Kennedy Carter. And up until yesterday, there was really no reason to think that maybe that there might be something in life. In this, in this, in this marriage. And you know, Kennedy's going through some stuff, so I definitely want to give her some grace. I think she, you know, I think anybody going through stuff deserves grace. It seems like there's some family stuff that's going on in her life. And I think sometimes in these situations, sometimes like, you know, when you're going through big things, it makes the little things amplified emotionally. And Kennedy's an emotional player. It's what we love about her. When we watch her on the court, she's absolutely fearless. There's almost like a desperation that she plays with when she's driving to the rim. We've already seen her take like three or four pretty insane falls as well. And I think that you kind of just have to let people be themselves, you know?
That said, so after the game, Kennedy Carter played a lot in the first half of that game. And, you know, while she, you know, you look at the box score, she had a pretty good game. I think it was like 21 points, 7 for 13. She definitely had some errors as far as like defensive rotations go as far as sort of like not running the offense goes. And Jackie Young ended up closing the game. Jackie Young, who was like over 12, but ended up, you know, having like the game saving dive and the game saving jump ball when that gets Chelsea greater ball to win it. So, you totally understand why Becky went that way, Becky Hammond afterward said it was nothing personal. Kennedy didn't do anything wrong. They wanted to go with defense and size so they went with Jackie Young. However, that was a question I asked her about. I was like, okay, breathe girl. But I asked because Kennedy walked into the press conference and she looked like really disappointed, you know, she said that, you know, she would have liked to play in the fourth. And then when she was asked about Chelsea Gray, but that Chelsea Gray did Chelsea Gray things. She was asked later why she was disappointed when she said that she was disappointed and she walked off. I don't think that this was like a press conference that she necessarily wanted to do. She was also back in Atlanta where she definitely has a lot of history as well. So I don't want to like lambastor anything like that, but it is definitely something to sort of put a pin in and I'm curious how you you took it. I took it as I was 10% worried about it and 90% that this is going to be fine. As you mentioned, she's playing in Atlanta. She went to that and she's going to tell you, oh, it is just another game, whatever, whatever. But she wanted to play well there. She wanted to be an important part of beating that team. And then you could take it out at the end of the game and you don't get to feel like that. So I'm sure that that was in there, but also this is the benefit of being on a team that has won multiple championships with the unanimously regarded best player in the league. And a couple of the, as you've mentioned, clutches players and also like the most dependable players. Jackie Young, you never have to worry about her making a bad decision at she's going to miss some shots. She'll never miss a shot because she made a mistake. Sometimes the shots just don't go away. So you don't have to worry about that part. But getting to play on a team like that, you inevitably pick up those traits. Like what she's going to learn from this, I assume, is okay, if I'm not doing the things I'm supposed to do, I don't get to be out there when I want to be out there. Becky's not going to, you're not going to bend Becky's will. And your best player is not going to allow you to bend her will or anybody else's will as well. So she's not the strongest personality on this team, which I think is the first time that has probably been the case since like college. And that's a very, that's like a very interesting thing for her to go through. That's a very interesting thing to keep to keep an eye on because when you're not the like biggest personality or the strongest personality, you don't have to be the biggest personality and the strongest personality. You just get to play basketball. And that's why I think she's going to be so, so dangerous here. I think that's why at the start of the season, especially even at the beginning of this game. She was such a dangerous player. She's such a dangerous player because she doesn't have to carry all of everything on her shoulder. She just gets to go get some buckets. And when you have a, when you have a player of her level. And that's what she's responsible for. Then that's how you end up four and one at the start of a season. So I'm not, I'm 10% like, let's keep an eye on this, but 90% more fine. This is not going to be I think because if nothing else, let's say it just goes horribly wrong. Just horribly, horribly, previous seasons, we're going to kick you out of the WNBA level of wrong. You just go, okay, well, you're not playing on the team anymore. And, and, and guess what? We still have Asia, Jackie, Chelsea, Smith, like we're fine. Dana's coming back at some point. Yeah, we're fine. So I, I'm not, I'm not worried about it. I'm 10% like, let's keep an eye on it. Yeah, I think that's the right way to read it. There's also a really good lesson in there for her, right? Like, Kennedy Carter, you can score 20 points, you know, in, in like 21 minutes. And you can still be in minus one. Yeah. Jackie Young, you can go over 12 and be a plus six. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You pick up on like, you pick up on that. Yeah, master the little things. Those are the conversations that start happening around you. You're, maybe you weren't paying attention to it before, but you start to pay attention to it now because that's what everybody in your, in your arm's length is talking about. And you go, okay, I get it. I see, I see. Yeah, exactly. This is a friend like, this is a place that's all about winning and like making winning plays. And this is a place where she can become that. You know, she is, you know, probably is the best score in the world. Yeah. Can you become a winner? We, and this is, this is like a lesson that, that you can stretch out across any, across any like profession. We'll do some behind the scenes stuff. I'll say a nice thing about you. That may be a lot of people. Don't know, but when you listen to the show, it just sounds like you're having just a conversation and talking and like, I just, whatever I'm just thinking of this stuff on the spot. I know you do that. You do days worth of research before and you've got all these docs up and notes and it's all prepared ahead of time. And because I know that you do that and everybody else who comes on the show knows that you do that. We can't show up looking like a jackass without having done that also. And that, and I think that's what's happening. That's what's going to happen with this team. You can't walk into, into the most prepared teams practice, the most prepared teams games and not be prepared yourself. You just start to do it. That's what's going to happen here. Now, now I'm, I'm, now I'm 5% concerned about, I've talked to myself out of the 10, I'm only five from 95 and five. We're good for five. Well, thank you. That's very kind of you. I appreciate that. Although I do think I sound like a jackass a lot of times. I want to give people, I want to give people permission to sound like a jackass. That's like that's part of the permission structure that we're trying to create here. You can be, and you can be also well informed on a topic and still sound like a jackass on. I've done it many times. I'm sure, I'm sure you've been in those places too. Okay. Then can I give you, can I give you a jackass take? This is my jackass take. Absolutely. Please. And we have right now that you cannot, you can't bring it up later on. If it doesn't come true, you can only bring it up. If it does come true, okay. I'm going to look like a genius. This is with this is a safe space. Okay. The Indiana fever are not going to make the playoffs. What? They're not going to make the playoffs. What? And the Toronto temples are so much, there's only so much I can control in this specific context. It's too late, Indiana fever fans. They're not going to create a safe space for you. You are, I get, you're going to get clipped my friend. Oh, please go on, please go on. She told me that ahead of time. I'm going to tell me that ahead of time. There's only so much I can do in this situation. All right, but let's, let's hear, let's hear. Okay. Let's, let's, let me talk you through why I feel that way. Four games, four games into the season. Yeah. Here's why I feel the way because they're two and two right now. They were great last year. Everyone was like, oh, this is the team that's a year or two away from like really contending for a championship. We're going to be headed in that direction, right? Even Caitlin Clark, you always have a chance. She's one of the best players in the league. I get it, I get it, I get it. But just across these first four games, we look at the first four games only. The two games that they've lost. The two games that they've lost have been clutch time down to the end. Can you execute games? Right? Two they won, they won, you know, go in a way. But the two that they lost, I believe if I'm remembering correctly, I don't have it in front of me here. They lost my two points and three points or something like that. Yeah. Right. And I just, and I'm watching the game. This is, this is me being a bias as his fan because I'm used to watching the end of a game when it's close and not worrying because the coach is going to draw up the right plays in my two best players in the clutch, Asia and Chelsea are going to make the right decisions. And I'm watching the end of the fever games. I'm going, they don't know how to win yet. When it gets close, they don't know how to win yet. And I feel like if you, you can't blow every team out in the league anymore. Like you used to have, Chicago's a perfect example. That was like a guarantee W on your schedule last year. And this year they're terrifying. They're really good. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like if they're in enough close games, they're not going to be able to convert enough of those close games. And it's going to be, it's going to, they're going to just miss a playoffs. And the Toronto temple, temple. Okay, slide in there. All right, let's stick with the fever for a second here. Okay. Um, I think, so I do agree their offense has some, has some problems. Despite being, they are the number two offense and their defense is number nine. So I think that there are a lot of people who would be like, why aren't you talking about the defense? But I think to your point, when you're watching these games, you can't help but kick this, you can't kick the sense that they're leaving something on the table. Now, I will say we want to go back to the first close game that they, that they lost against the wings, right? Um, They got Caitlyn Clark wide open for a three and they got Kelsey Mitchell wide open for a three.
- Mm-hmm. - I let go of it. - I went down with that every single time. (laughs) Like that's, you miss a shot. Okay, whatever. That's good offense. - Mm-hmm. - Like that I will live with. If you tell me that if they're gonna play a lot of close games and they're also gonna be able to get Kelsey and Caitlin wide open on out of bounds plays, yeah, I'm completely gonna be okay with that. I do think, and this relates to the aces and it relates to Becky in a way. Stephanie White is overthinking this offense. I think they are undergoing what I think is a well-intentioned overcorrection of the way that they've used Caitlin Clark in the WNBA. I think she's been way too overtaxed with on-ball duties. Like she, I crunched the numbers before the season. If you compare her to Iowa to now, and I've been asked about both the rookie season, the rookie season is very similar. To last season, as far as these numbers go, she's got like 20% more of an on-ball burden. This season, they're trying to play with her off the ball more. They're also not playing Raven Johnson enough, which they corrected in the Seattle game. But if you put the ball in Caitlin's hands and have people cutting around her, she will make a good decision. I said this on last week's plot, I just got a dog. My dog is obsessed with chasing every squirrel. He sees every squirrel within a 500 meter radius. That is Caitlin Clark when you cut for the better end for worse. She's going to try to find that cutter. And with Kelsey, she's one of the best scorers that we have in the league. Another player who dare I say doesn't really need a screen barrier often. And Alia Boston, before she was her and Caitlin, together are one of the most formidable pick and roll duos that we've ever seen. And the fever have just gone away from that. And I think on some level, there's is a basketball philosophy thing for Step White. I think she leans into offensive versatility more than she leans into maximization sometimes. Like, look at her having Alyssa Smith in 2024. Alyssa Smith runs like 70 pick and rolls as a ball handler. She's doing that way more than any other big. It makes her a very difficult cover. But Alyssa, at times, is still doing all these other things that she's suboptimal at for the sake of A, I think, versatility, but then also, like, just earring on the side of basketball convention when you have a player who is not conventional at all. Nate Tibbens gets Alyssa Thomas. She runs pick and rolls as a ball handler, 220 times. She has a career year at 33 years old, with career high averages and points and assists. And I think, on some level, part of the frustration with Step White comes from that sort of, like, just not, just not taking the leash off to stick with the dog or your, like, you just got to let him cook a little bit. Talk yourself into it. They're not making the playoffs. Go ahead, say it. I'm not doing that. I'm so not doing that. That's what it sounds like. You're waking your way towards. No, I think they have some flaws. I think their championship ceiling is something that I worry about. I think their front court, especially with Leah Boston, her is something I worry about. Dantes and KK are pretty much unplayable. I think that, you know, they need to find somebody in that front court, absolutely. They need to play Raven Johnson more next to Caitlin Clark. Caitlin's got her three back, too. I just know I, I get that, I get that, I get people a little bit, I get, I get, except that she needs, no, I don't know. Except when she needs it, when? Except when she needs it, except when she needs it. Except for when she's going to win the game, except when she's going to win the game. Larger question for you, because last time you were on the pod, you said that next, like at some point you wanted to have a conversation about the Caitlin arc. And you compared it a little bit to like Asia and like 2020 and all the losing she had to go through before she won. Where are you at on, on Caitlin in general at this point? I still for the same, I still for the same way. I feel like it's fun to joke about it. The only reason it's fun to joke about it is because she's so good. She's a very, very good basketball player. It wouldn't be fun to say she's not that good if she actually wasn't that good. She's great. She's, she's already one of the probably 15, 10 best players in the league. If you were starting the team and you got to pick whoever you wanted, she would be pretty high up on the list. I do think that, I do think we have some cushion here. I do think we have another two years at least of her having to lose in the playoffs before it's her turn to takeover, right? And that's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. Eventually she should be one of the three best players in the league, but she's not there right now. And Asia is, and that's why I always like joke around. You can just bring it back to Asia. Just bring it back, just bring it back. But that's how I feel about about Caitlin. One of the most electric players to watch play has turned every Indiana fever game until like a game. You turn your TV on to watch. Yeah. I think she will eventually win a championship, and she's going to go, I'm not saying she's going to go her whole career without winning. I think she wins one, maybe two. But we're not there yet. We're not there yet. And I'm not super worried about it. Who are your top five players in the WNBAs right now? Oh my goodness. So that's the thing. I wouldn't even put her above Alia, like if we're just looking at the Indiana fever. Yeah. I'm partial to Biggs, because I'm a little-- I like a big-- I like a big-- a big player, you know what I mean? But if I'm just going to rattle them off, you have to have Asia above her. You have to have Brianna above her. You have to have-- you have to have Blinken on her name now from Minnesota. The FISA? In the FISA collier, you have to have in the FISA above her. You have to have Alia boss in the boat. It's easy to rattle them off, you know what I mean? I don't-- the fifth place becomes like, I'm not sure who to slide in there. I'm not quite certain who to slide in there. But that's where I am. I think it's hard to make the argument for Alia when she said such a tough start to the season this year. You want to talk about her last year. Well, that's what I have in my mind. Yeah. That's what I have in there. But here's the thing. And it gets back to why it's fun. Because I think people do this all the time with the fever. They're like, Kelsey Mitchell is the best player on the fever. Alia Boston's the best player on the fever. And you know how I know they're not? We don't talk about them the way that they talk about it. [LAUGHTER] At all, at all, not even remotely. I mean, she's like top five, top 10 in points and assists right now. She's shooting like an insane percentage from underneath the rim. The three is back. She's the best passer in the league. I get the top three that you have. After that, I'm kind of like, OK, Paige. Paige is definitely there with her right now. Similar sort of frame and questions. However, with Paige, she has the opposite thing where it's like, you want her to take over a game sometimes. And it's like, where is that aspect of it? Like, you're getting rattled by traps at the end of every game as well. And that's the growth element of it. I do think that there is an arc that I agree with. There's going to be probably a couple of years before we get to Caitlin Clark or Paige Becker's fully actualized. But I still think where they are right now, where she is right now, is still like at this point, from a third year player, especially one that missed her entire second year, I just don't really know what more you could ask. You can't ask more. She can't do more. It's just not the time. OK, so I want to throw some names out there. Because now I'm very interested in figuring out figuring out this order. And we'll do it is she better, right? That's all you got to do is she better than Caitlin Clark. That's what we're going to do. That's the game where you are. Sure, let's do it. I like this. I like this, yeah. All right. Satu Savoli. No. Sabrina UNESCO. No. Jackie Young. Oh, she's thinking about it. No. I think Jackie's-- So he also make the Kelsey Mitchell versus Caitlin Clark thing. I think Jackie's definitely out there. Jackie's better than probably Kelsey Mitchell. I think that she's probably the third best guard in the league behind Paige and Caitlin. OK. Paige, it's Paige better? And Caitlin, not yet. No, I don't think-- That's Paige. I will stutter. Like I'm stuttering right now. We get stutter territory. Paige, what's being stutter territory? Keep going. OK. So wait, the three that you said were OK to have above her, Asia, Nephisa, and Brianna. Yeah. Those three are fine. OK. So is there anybody that-- I'm curious where you have Caitlin in your-- I think for me, she's probably like somewhere around 7 or 8. OK. And if I'm putting them in order of best basketball players-- So you have Aliyah, and then who else do you have? I have Jackie Young ahead of her. I'll admit that this is-- I'll allow you that. I'm not going to do it again. I'll allow you to be a fan, yeah. And I have Paige ahead of her as well. OK. That's the closest one. It's like where we're leaning toward the finish line at the 100 meter dash at the Olympics. Yeah. That's how close those two players are. Yeah. But that's about where I have probably top eight players or so. I'm curious where she is, what yours look like. I think she's forced for me, and Paige is probably 5.
Alia is definitely somewhere in that like six to nine territory for me. I've got I've mentioned page Jackie Young is definitely there. I did a list of this little while ago I can try to find because there's probably a lot more wild than it is right now Alyssa Thomas is probably closer to that bottom 10 range Sabrina is not there for me. Sabrina is like 15 15 for Sabrina. Oh, probably. Yeah, I mean, she's just not so she have to win She has to be shot of the year they won the finals She hit like the shot. She's not she's just she's just not efficient enough for me. That's true Yeah, I'm a sucker. That's a she was the first like When she was at Oregon, I was like all right. I'm gonna care about this player when I was watching her in the in the So I'm I'm always partial To Sabrina also watching her in that the three-point Contest as she had when she's like 23 out of 25 shots was just something that will live in my head. Yeah forever Yeah, but I can get I can get with you put in her above I also have Caitlin above her Okay, but I just want to say that very loud. Give me your tempo thing Oh, okay, two things about the tempo number one. I don't like their logo at all Why did you do that? Why did you do that? That's a part of your like Why did you talk do that Brian Winhorse meme thing that you do? Oh, yeah, yeah, for me why did why did you do exactly what the Indiana Pacers did it doesn't make any sense to me. Ooh, it is a Pacer's knockoff. I never thought about that. Yeah I mean as soon as I was like this is I don't like this at all I don't like it. Yeah, I get what they're doing, but I don't I don't like it A team logo should your only focus group should be seven-year-olds. That's why the rappers is so good Right the rappers should be minimalist like yeah, I get that they're trying to like be like forward towards because their merch is really cool Their merch is really cool and part of the reason it's cool is because of the logo So I get that I think it's a logo that like works in a lot of different places But I think everything is becoming this way like there's a seamlessness to To modern design because you want it to work on a shirt. You want it to work on a hat. You want it to work I don't know on hardwood and all that so I get it. I get it. I'll live with it because like There's there's forces at play here, but I yeah I'm with you. I'm with you separate on the separate of the logo though. I really like that team I have been a big marina maybe fan since she was at Notre Dame I like a big Big guard number one, but I also like somebody who's a bit of a bully and someone who talks shit during a game And that's all she does the whole way she just causes trouble and talk shit and shoots three and I think this is a this is the first time In her career where she's had the opportunity to be like I'm gonna be one of the two best players on this team And her and her and Sykes together. They just play so well as so much fun to To watch um, but I'm very high on the on the tempo very high on the tempo. I like that Um, the Canadians are gonna love that shout out to Britney Sykes by the way. We had a career high 30 points against the sparks I got my first tempo experience um Because they were an L.A. Two straight games. I didn't get to go to the last one, but I was at the friday one And I like their front court a lot too. Like niara sobli, lori, skidah They have so much depth. Julie all of them on is awesome. Dare I say she's everything that the sparks are missing right now Kelsey plum is so much better when she's playing next to a point guard. It turns out um Yeah, I'm definitely high on the tempo. All right before I let you go so I have to oh my gosh. I have to read an email to you I forgot I forgot about this um You're gonna you're you're gonna love this um and it will get into the kinetic its son and the Houston move Um that we wanted to talk about it. So from Brian North High seared it first time long time if you have any pull whatsoever in the w Can you please get this aja gray young Lloyd Carter lineup band for the sake of competitiveness all of the Philly Tosh push sincerely kinetic its son Ben already in enough distress I love it. So Shay, you're um you worked in Houston for a long time You freelance for the Houston press. I was reading your wiki, which felt weird because I actually know you um But you have been like you've been in Texas for a while you obviously have deep roots in in the state I'm curious what you make of like kind of the meaning of Houston having a wnb a team again. Oh, it's incredible. I was so excited when that Announcement came out. You know, they were the they I mean, that's the four-peat Comments to like an integral part of the the like the lore of the league of the history of the league. This is like For NBA fans listening to this be like if they got rid of the Celtics for 20 years And they're like guess what the Celtics are back. That's what the comments are being back. I was like, I guess what Maybe our most historic franchise is back in the league. So that's one part. That's good But another part that's good for me is is I live in San Antonio. Houston is only three hours away. So now it's easier to go To a game. I have to drive four hours to get to a Dallas Wings game My three hours is shorter than four hours. So I'm excited about that my wife is from Houston Like this is just it's just all great. It's all good stuff That Houston is getting their team back Yeah The the secret of all of this too and I'm very sorry to the wings fans Houston is so much cooler It's so much cooler. It's so much cooler. Dallas is the worst the worst city in Texas So bad. I will say I've only been to to both places once when I went to Houston I had a bunch of Vietnamese food and I've heard amazing things about the music culture I went to raising canes with Rob Mahoney and It was it was a fantastic experience When I went to Dallas the first thing I saw when I what when I got downtown was an advertisement for Ben Shapiro doing a talk at some university. So it just vibes wise vibes wise especially really like the w-n-v-a It is so different The way they are going to be a free agent player immediately Um is It's just just just keep an eye on that you got keep an eye on neco guma k who only has a one-year deal with uh with the sparks and is a Texas native from she's from tome where actually a jimmy butler is from um So and there's and she's not the only one britney grinders going back home next year Lasting on on houston um There's still a battle to get the houston Comments trademark. I think that you know, they're pretty confident about getting it But it's because a company owned by a Travis Scott um is in possession of it and he is now uh also owns Astor world as well as alongside something else. I think but it basically um he is Buying up everything associated with space and houston um And like I just I can't understand the way in which this guy just doesn't feel like he's a favorite son Like everybody in Houston just seems like oh, oh cool. Now you're doing this too. Great. Yeah. That's great Go ahead and buy by nasa by the rights to nasa and that's what's next on his That's the other thing I did when I went to houston. I went to the uh the space center there To this new to space center and raising cams that sounds and ate a bunch of eaten food It was awesome Um Shay, thank you so much for making the time today. It's always a pleasure to talk hoops with you um he's the author of expensive basketball Is there anything else that you wanted to plug? Is there anything new that you're working on or any other books that um from back in the day that you would like to plug What's what's going on with you? No, I don't have anything else to plug other than just watch just watch as much basketball as you can because basketball is the best sport in the world And it's being played at the highest level. It's ever been played Right now across both the NBA and the WNBA And I don't know what else you could ask for go spurs go Go spurs go Shay, thank you so much. Appreciate you. Thank you so much to chase a rano for joining the show Thank you to Stefan Anderson for producing And we will be back this Thursday Um, a couple things to lock in on the Dallas wings are playing tonight for the first time after Jose Fernandez's comments calling the team selfish um So that will be something to keep an eye on we also did a deep dive on that on the links Wings game that caused those comments on Friday's podcast if you're looking to have a deeper understanding of what went on there And will we yeah, we'll be back Thursday. We'll probably talk about that um we'll probably talk a little bit more about the Washington Mystics That's a team that I want to get into but I also want to hear from you guys. It's very early in the season um Small sample size what's exciting you what do you have questions about what would you like to see us do Deeper dives on um. I'm always open to stuff like that because the start of the season you can kind of go Um in any direction. So yeah If you have anything But you'd like to hear more about in general email me here at
[email protected] And thank you as always for listening. I'll talk to you guys soon Yeah, anything you want to know
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