“She Spoke Her TRUTH!” Martina Navratilova on Sophie Cunningham & Megan Rapinoe Trans Rows

In the year of our law, in 2026, some people still believe it's a "cancellable" offense to say that formerly male trans athletes should not compete against women. Well, the firestorm surrounding WNBA superstar Sophie Cunningham shows the argument somehow is not settled yet. Last week Cunningham told ESPN that she supports a ban on trans athletes to protect young female athletes. And, mid-resulting, outcry, she has doubled down. I said what I said, I think it's kind of common sense. And I think I'll always believe in that. I think it's really important to protect children and that's little girls who are also involved in that category. And so I stand on what I said. Well, the cost of Sophie Cunningham's common sense has been raucous booing and heckling from crowds at her games. Arrival coat, smuggling wore trans-branded t-shirt. Pundits say Cunningham should shut up and dribble a position they'd rarely take about the many stars you echo their politics. Perhaps the most sane commentary from the world of sport has come from Stephen A Smith who wrote, "You can support people's rights and believe biological men shouldn't compete in women's sports. These two things are not mutually exclusive. Common sense still matters. That is where I stand." Well, that's where I stand too. I respect my next guest feels the same. Before we debate the story of my panel, delighted to be rejoined on uncensored by the tennis legend, Martina Navratolava. Martina, great to see you again. Hello, Pierce. Nice to see you. Good to be here again. Thanks. Before we get to this very lively debate, the last time I spoke to you was in 2023. Were you announced an interview with me, you were cancer-free, following of course that devastating double diagnosis of stage one throat cancer, an unrelated early stage breast cancer. So before we go any further, how are you? How's your health? You know, I'm great and it was funny because as I was setting up for this interview, I was on the other side and I noticed all these wrinkles on the left side of my neck and there's no wrinkles on the right side. I'm like, "Why is that?" And then I realized that's where I had the radiations on the left side of my neck. So I own these wrinkles and I'm good with that because I'm cancer-free. I have no side effects whatsoever, so I'm very, very lucky. Thanks. And Chris Severed, of course, is going through the cancer. Let's bring it to here. Going through the treatment. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, well, I, on that point, I did notice, I mean, you two have become so close in, in later life, haven't been such rivals. How is she doing? Well, we started out as friends and we're finishing our best friends and she's doing fine. She's gone through two rounds of chemo. She's got four to go and she's a champion, so she'll come through on the other side once again. No doubt about that. Well, you're both very, very tough cookies, we would say in the UK. And let's turn to this big debate. So I watched the Sophie Cunningham thing play out and honestly, Martina, I was kind of incredulous that we are still having a situation where a female athlete is vilified, booed, heckled, abused and ostracised by colleagues, simply pastating a biological fact. What is your reaction to what's happened to her? I was just sad. I mean, Sophie spoke the truth. She was not singling out trans athletes. She was only talking about male bodies in women's sports, which clearly is not a fair fight. So she, it is a WNBA, women's national basketball association, which means women, which means females, not males who identify otherwise. So she just spoke her truth and she did not back away from that. What I find really sad is that she's then verified for that and then call all kinds of names as I have been as well. But most of all that the league is not supporting this, that the league is silent, which they should be approaching forward, just like the GTA has now saying only female bodies should be playing tennis, women's tennis. And you do a one time cheek swab, which takes literally two seconds. You just do it once in your lifetime to make sure that you are indeed a female. And that's the end of that. And people that have a problem with that. There's no, there's no ban on trans athletes. There's no ban on trans males who identify as trans, that won't identify as women who want to play sports. They can still play in the male category. The biggest divider in sports in categories. We have two categories, male and female. And then you also have weight categories for different sports. But you don't have any other categories, different age groups. But you don't have any other category. And that's just the best dividing line. And when people talk inclusion, every time you include a male body in a female sport, you are excluding another female from that spot. So it is not inclusive. It's actually exclusive because there will be fewer women, females who have the opportunity to play sports, whether it's basketball or rugby or tennis or whatever. Yeah, that's 100% the issue. And, you know, Sophie Cunningham went out of her way in her piece on ESPN by saying, I got a lot of negative feedback about me hating trans. And I'm like, I never once said that. I think that I'm here to extend love. But I also think the with love is truth being honest. And I want to protect young girls in a locker room or young girls in sport. You shouldn't have to go against biological men. I don't understand Martina. Why every single woman in the world does not agree with that. Well, I don't understand either. I think women that speak for inclusion and that the coaches that spoke for inclusion, they don't really think things through. And I think as women, we want to be loving and taking care of everybody. But this is not that sports by definition is exclusive in that you have to qualify to get to a certain level. And in order for that to happen, those categories have to be very clear. And but also we keep saying, all the girls need to protest and boycott and all this. I'm sorry. If they compete, they lose. And if they don't compete, they lose also. And then they may even be disqualified from their sport, which has happened to other in other sports where an athlete that complained about competing against the male, they were disqualified from their sport for a year or two. It happened to April Hutchinson in Canada, a weightlifter. It happened to Lynn Pinches in Snooker in England. It happened to a basketball player. So it's hard for girls to speak up. And by the way, it's adults that are pushing these rules. And it's mostly men that make the rules. And it's always men that are intruding into women's sex-based spaces. So this is really on men to speak up. And I wish more male athletes that are active would speak up on the issue. And of course female athletes because this is our sport, this is our livelihood. And they should be speaking up. And it shouldn't not be political. It has become a political football which is stupid because about 80% of people agree with this position in sex-based spaces only for females and then for only for males. And about 65% Democrats, every poll that I've seen, it's about 65% Democrats that agree with this as well. But people turn it into this left-right issue. And it's a women's rights issue. I'm sorry, it's women's rights, which means, again, females, not males who identify as women. Yeah. And you know, the Minnesota Lynx head coach, Cheryl Reeve, in her first matchup against Sophie Cunningham. Since Sophie Cunningham said what she said, she wore a trans kids belong t-shirt on the bench. Clearly making some point is somehow Sophie Cunningham had said trans kids don't belong in society or life. She never said that. She went out of her way not to say this. Yeah. You know, she has the same view, I think, that you do and I do, which it's absolutely, I support trans people's rights to exist and to have the same rights as anybody else. My problem comes when trans athletes erode the basic rights of women as women. And that's what we've been seeing and that's what this debate's about. I want to play a clip from Stephen A Smith about this. Okay. Being anti anything. This is about being pro girls, pro females, pro women, pro ladies. That's what this is about. You are Cheryl Reeve, the head coach of the Minnesota Lynx. That is an irresponsible thing to do. You are a coach for a female basketball team. Do you not think that the females are being screwed over if they have to compete against an individual born as a male? We are talking about. I mean, I wanted to cheer hearing that because I think people should get angry. You know, this is something that's so ridiculous. I honestly believe in 20 years time we'll look back on this period and think the world went completely nuts. Well, we can think about that about a lot of things these days, but certainly this is one of them because, you know, I disagree with Stephen A Smith quite often and I agree with him quite often. And on this issue, he is 100% correct. It is absolute insanity. But it's not that women are weaker, which is different animals altogether from men in so many ways, but biologically, physically, so much that it's not even a fair fight. Look, I was about the only girl that could could do pull ups when I was 10 years old. Every single boy in my school could do pull ups. I was the only girl that could do pull ups, even boys before puberty have that advantage. There's no doubt about it. And it's massive in sports. It's insurmountable at any level. If you're this much of a male, this much of a female, if that male at that level that finished 100 and that they'll finish 10 or first in the girls level. So it's not a fair fight. And girls, what happens is girls self-exclude. They don't go and try out for the high school theme because if there is five boys on the team, they don't have a chance. So it really punishes girls in some of the ways before they even get to a high level. Yeah, and as I always say, Mr. Bate, there is a reason that we separate the sexes in the Olympics. And the reason is that if we made it gender neutral, then women biological females would end up winning barely any medal. And therefore the Olympics just disintegrate and be destroyed. And your peak, Martino, when you are the best women's tennis player in the world, what number of men would you have beaten? Would you have beaten anyone in the top 500 men? Top 1000, what do you say? Maybe. It's about 500 might be the level at this point. I mean, the power is, it takes so much less power for them to hit the ball just as hard as I do. Which means to hit it harder, at the level that I'm using, they can hit it so much harder and have that much more control and have that much harder ball. And they've moved that much faster and then jumped that much higher. And by the way, they have five inches of height advantage on average. And then with your reach, you've got probably seven inches. So I have to jump seven inches higher to hit the same ball as a guy. So you just can't make up for that. And most sports are very fast twitch and explosive and strength matters. And so maybe 500, maybe I have a chance. Maybe you want to set, maybe you want to match. But if we do it over and over and over, the guy just takes that much less effort to hit the same shot. So at the end, it's a losing effort. I don't know what the cutoff is, but that's not the point. That's not the point. There's over 1,000 boys under 15 that have run faster 100 meters than one's good for junior who's still on the record in 100 meters. So we have no chance, we have no chance. Right, I mean, it's not even an argument. It's like in every pretty much any sport that involves physical power or speed, it's obvious. That's why we separate the sexes. And it shouldn't be a denigration of women's sport to just say the obvious. That's why we do it. What do you feel you've always been incredibly brave and in the way you talk about issues that you care about? I've always felt that about you. And I mind that enormously about you. But I've also felt that people shouldn't be compelled to speak out on hot issues if they don't want to. But Caitlin Clark is Sophie Cunningham's teammate. She's also the poster girl, really, for women's basketball, the best player in the world, many people think. She refuses to get drawn into this. She won't say either way. What would people have accused her of being hypocritical that she should and so on? What do you feel about that? Well, it is a basketball issue. Is it every sport issue for women? I think I tweeted this couple days ago. For me, her not speaking about it is the equivalent of Michael Jordan saying Republicans by sneakers too. He did not want to offend anybody so that everybody would love him. And everybody may buy his sneakers. And I think that Caitlin is trying to be neutral here, but you cannot be neutral when it comes to your sport. This is not some political issue. This is not some outsider issue. This is a basketball issue just as much as it was a tennis issue, no more. And it is every female sport issue. So I wish she would speak out because that would really help everybody else to speak out about it. And as you say, courageous contagious. And it shouldn't take courage to be able to speak out about it. But listen, the abuse that I have gotten online about this is just crazy. But of course, it's just social media. Nobody says that to my face because they don't have an argument. So I wish more would speak out. But Caitlin Clark's been dealing with a lot of other crap really literally. So I don't blame her for it. But I do wish that she would speak out. If she was to speak out, what would you like her to say? Well, most of all, I would like the commissioner to speak out, again, the head of the WNBA. Maybe they don't feel that-- maybe they feel that she feels that males should be allowed. But again, it's the women's league. And I just wish she would say, it's about the girls and the women. And we deserve a fair fight. And if you have-- let's say you would have five trans males on your team playing. They win every time. You have no chance. So protect the girls is what everybody says. What about the trans girls and the trans women that want to compete? They can compete in the category. Please leave us alone. We fought so hard and so long to get our own sports and our own competitions in track and field. Women couldn't run a marathon in the Olympics until 1984 because we weren't deemed strong enough to run a marathon. We fought so hard to get to this. And now we men want in on it. I don't think so. I'm sorry. One female tennis player, current tennis number one, Arunas Saba Lenka, has spoken out about this just recently and also did on my show. Let's take a look. Martin and I battle over a former number one, obviously, like yourself, says it's wrong for the women's tennis association to allow trans women to compete in his events. Do you agree with it? Well, that's a tricky question. I have nothing to do against them. But I feel like they still got huge advantage over the women. And I think it's just not fair to a woman to basically face the biologically man. And then it's not fair. Like the woman been working the whole life to reach her limit. And then she has to face a man, which biologically much stronger. So for me, I don't agree with this kind of stuff in sport. I will also want to play what she said this week about it as well. Let's take a look at that. I think it's really important to keep the fairness in our tour. And it's always the biologically, right? The man way stronger than the woman. So I feel like it would be not really fair for the woman to compete against biological men. So I believe it took them a little while to make the decision. And yeah, I support it. Now the WTA have recently announced that the players will take a one-time gender test. The first pro league to go that way. Do you think every pro league of any women's sport should do that? And secondly, not many tennis players, women tennis players, have come out and publicly supported Sabahlenker. She's been, I think, really brave here. Should more come out and support her? Well, I think they will. But I think the support is there, because it comes from the top. It comes from the organization that says, this is what you need to do. And this used to be the case. In the 70s, I took the bar body test where you had to prove you were a female to compete. All the female athletes did that. They only did a way with that. I think at like 96, 97, I think the Sydney Olympics were the first Olympics for the test was not necessary. And here we are. And there was a 2016 in Rio, the 800-meter finishers were all DSD athletes. Katsof Samenia winning the gold. And there were number two, number three. Only the fourth finisher was an actual female, that one that won that competing in that race. And so Sabahlenker is right. And I think the support is there. But I think the players and the athletes are just afraid to speak out, because they can really fight for that. Look what's happened to Sophie Cunningham. It'll be interesting to see what her home crowd does when she carries the ball. So it's not easy. But again, those rules, I think most of the sports, all the sports should now follow in the lead. IOC started it with Christie Coventry taking charge, because Thomas Bach was horrible on that issue. And the WTA, we had a male as the president of it or CEO for the last 15 years or so. Now we have a female. And I think she gets it, obviously, Valerie, and here we are. So I think the ballroom get rolling in that way. Trans athletes are not banned at all. In fact, women, females that identify as males, can compete in the women's category, as long as they don't take any testosterone. If they take testosterone, then they need to compete against men. So this is not an anti-trans issue at all. It's a pro-female, pro-women and girls issue. And it should stay that way. It should not be pro-women. I want to weigh in just with it. Yeah, I agree. Incredibly, some of America's biggest female sports stars, like Megan Rapino, completely disagree, right? She went on the view two weeks ago, and she said this. They're using this as a wedge issue, because we love sports and, you know, So we don't want our little girls to be unsafe in sports and it's like unsafe from who, but okay. But now we're using this as like an overarching thing. When really we're attacking women, we're saying if you look like this as a woman, you can play. If you look like this as a woman, there's a bill in Washington happening right now that's gonna require all girls just like full stop to go through a sex test and invasive like examining their genitals to see if they're a woman. - Yeah. - That worked out well, historically, for people to do that. - Yeah, we know what that means. Black girls are gonna get questioned more and they're gonna get questioned first. Who's doing the examinations? - Who wants to subject themselves to that? - Yeah, and so they're gonna see a pullback. They don't like women in sports because it helps us with confidence and power and we see so many women in the season we play to lead level sports. It's just great for you physically and all of it. But it's an attack on women in society. - I mean, aside from the fact she's factually wrong about the genital exams. Washington Initiative only requires a doctor's scientific biological sex using reproductive anatomy genetic makeup or testosterone levels. A cheek swab can determine sex, no genital exam is required. So she's wrong on fact about that. But this idea that keeping biological men out of women's sports Martina is an attack on women in society. What's your message to Megan Rapina? Well, let's think about that logic. - It is so illogical, it is just so far out. It's so crazy. And by the way, her team wants to a team of 15-year-old boys, you know, the women at women top Olympic team wants to a 15-year-old boys team like five, two or something. They got whipped. I just don't know where she's coming from that she really doesn't pay attention. Again, exaggerate the issue. What if five boys get on the women's team? Now, five girls did not get on the women's team and by the way, that team is going to win. So I don't get it. I don't, what upsets me is that people don't get educated better about the issues and then just to eye test, right? And by the way, I am muscular. You know, I'll be 70 in two months. I still have pretty good guts and I've done anything. Because that's my genetic makeup. I've always been very strong. Thank you mom, thank you dad. And I worked my ass off. But no matter how hard I work, I still cannot compete with the weakest guy on the ATP. I still can't bench for us 200 pounds, you know. So I'm just disappointed with Megan that she's like, you know, feeling this way and basically pulling up the ladder after she retires. Yeah, it's and the genital thus really. That was never the case, never, never, ever. She is full of crap, I'm afraid. Martina, it is fantastic to see you and particularly looking so incredibly glowing and healthy. That is, that is wonderful to see you. Thank you very much indeed for joining me again. Thank you. Thank you. I actually played today for the first time in a year. So thumbs up. Really? That's brilliant. I love it. Well, great to see you, Martina, all the way best. Thank you very much. Joining us now to debate this, you can serve to commentator Blair White, the comedian, Jeff Dyer, sports commentator Andrea Richmond and the pro-trans activist Helen Webley. Well, welcome to all of you. Andrea Richmond, I just interviewed Martina and I've rattled over one of the greatest female sports stars in history. And she doesn't understand why any woman in the world would not agree with Sophie Gunningham when she says, I'm not transphobic at all. I want trans people to lead good, happy lives and have the same rights as the rest of us. I just don't want women's rights eroded by having biological males compete in women's sport. So I just asked you, Andrea, why don't you want to support women's rights? I don't understand. Well, if you think Megan Rapino is basically full of crap, then get ready to see the toilet with me because I feel like the entire premises, in my opinion, is transphobic because if you look at participation in the top level, high level sports, right? There are over 500,000 people who are participating in NCAA sports. How many people of those people are trans athletes? Only 10, right? So you're extrapolating 10 people out of a population of half a million people and focusing on them as if they are the problem and overwhelming problem of the sports field when it comes to the threat of women, when that is not the case, right? You say that you are concerned about biological men competing in the game of any sport, whether it be basketball, whether it be soccer, anything of the sort. Why are we assuming that the process of becoming a trans person, whether it be a trans woman or a trans male, it's as simple as putting on a wig and just deciding to change your pronouns, that is simply not the case, right? People who are trans go through a process years, over years, over years of going through hormonal therapy, of going through support for their mental therapy as well, going through support of changing their pronouns, their official means, they go through a process in which they determine whether or not they feel like they are internally a male or a woman. It is not as simple as just deciding to become an athlete. I feel like the premise of this conversation is just supposing that a man can decide the problem. Okay, so let me ask you. Okay, so do you agree that men have a superior power, strength, lung capacity, speed? I believe that once you are in the process of becoming either a male or a woman, you go over, you go through a hormonal therapy in order to become that. Yeah, that doesn't change any of the things I've just talked about. You're that process, no, Andrea. You're that process. You do actually change it, which-- Andrea? You're probably changing it, aren't you? Andrea. Andrea. Andrea. Yes, go on here, let's go on here. Just to be clear, just to be clear, none of that has any impact on your basic physiology that you were born with. No, it doesn't. And here's my second question for you. Here's my second question. It's a complete process of changing your body completely. Andrea? Yes. Andrea, stop filibustering me. If you say there is nothing to see here and no problem, presumably, if we extrapolate your theory, then we should have gender-neutral Olympics. You agree with that? I think that entire premise is also crap. Because, again, we are one supposing that there's not a transition process, but also two. What exactly does it mean to be a biological man or biological woman? Because there are tons of people. One in 20 people are intersex. Also two, 10% to 30% of the population has PCOS. PCOS presented in women gives them higher testosterone levels. Yes. Andrea, can you answer my question? Yeah, Andrea, can you answer my question? Yes. All right. So, thyroid issues also deals with your hormonal problems. Can you answer my question? Or answer them? Or answer them? Or left with them? Answer my question. Answer your question without trying to get to the basis of what is a biological man? And what is a biological woman as a first place? Because size cannot. Let me help you. Let me help you. Thank God. I am a biological man. You are a biological woman. Let me bring in a Jeff Dijk. Welcome to Uncensored Jeff. Great to see you. I just find it absolutely staggering. The reason that Andrea could not answer the Olympics question is because right there, that is why we separate the sexes. Well, fine. I'm just saying. Obviously, we separate the sexes, as I said to Martina earlier, because if we didn't, women wouldn't win any medals. It doesn't denigrate women athletes. They're fantastic. They're just not as strong or powerful or as fast as biological men. Therefore, that is why biological men shouldn't compete in women's sport, even if they identify as trans women. I mean, to me, it's very straightforward. I agree with you 100%. And I'm puzzled. We're still having these conversations on the subject. I think what's happening is in modern times, I think people and definitely women, more than men, are very nice and compassionate and sympathetic people. And so they see information as mean. When you say, "Oh, man, it's just a little stronger and a little bigger and a little faster." It strikes their brains. It's like, "That's so mean. Women can do this. Women can do anything they want." And I get that it sounds mean. It isn't mean. It's information. If someone was to say, "A guy can't have a baby," you wouldn't go, "Hey, do you don't say that? Men can do anything a girl can do. We can have babies." No, we can't. We're just different. It's not mean to say that there's never been a female Navy Seal. It's not like we're not letting women in the Navy Seals. It's just that men are able to do those kind of training and that kind of thing at a higher level of physicality. It has nothing to do with mean or nice or inclusion. Also, one in 20 intersex is absurd. I said one in 2000, by the way. Right. that is too. It is ridiculous. It is ridiculous. It's an act of third. And I guess that's science of third two. Well, you don't even believe in science. Let me bring it. Let me bring it. Let me bring it. It's going to be different between a man and a woman. Okay. Okay. Yeah, exactly. Blair White, you are a conservative trans woman, but you support Sophie Cunningham. I mean, Sophie Cunningham to me said nothing controversial at all. She just stated a basic fact whilst also expressing support for the trans community. And then one of these coaches goes out and says, you know, we must include trans people, whatever. Well, yeah, of course. No one's saying they can't be sports, right? What they're saying is you can't have biological men competing against biological females. It's obviously unfair. It would be like allowing drug cheats to compete, right? We none of us agree with that. We all think it gives them a superior physical advantage if you cheat on by doping. It's the same argument. Absolutely. And peers, I've been on the show so many times arguing this topic and it actually is blowing my mind that you can still find people on this 95 five issue that are willing to so vehemently argue for the five percent, right? I think that most Americans have moved past this, like intellectually, this debate. And I will say that I do support Sophie Cunningham. I think she's iconic. Her pointing beam is great. I love it. And whenever a mainstream celebrity does speak out against wokeism or against the establishment, the question then becomes if they're going to stand on it. So it's been really good to see her, you know, despite the people protesting her and people being upset to actually stand on what she said. And I think that that's admirable. You know, the WNBA is the highest level of women's sporting league in the country. It's the top. And so if those women in those positions can't speak out on this, then who can, especially when there's women or girls in high school and women in college that are experiencing this. So I support her. And to the women in the pigtails, shout out to you, having your own opinion, but I need you to sit down because I am trans. And so all districts speaking about the hormonal changes that happen. I know those quite well. And I will tell you right now, it's more than just taking hormones or lowering estrogen when it comes to comparing a trans woman athlete with a biological woman athlete, things like wrist size, height, lung capacity, heart size, so many things that are going to obviously come into play and benefit the biological male in this situation are going to be there. And those are not reversible through hormones, no matter what. So it's a lot bigger than just, oh, they're on estrogen now, so it's a level playing field. It's really not. And where are these athletes right now? That's my question. Well, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on the United Nations actually for I think 2024 calculated that nearly a thousand medals at all levels of sport globally have been deprived from female athletes by trans women athletes, nearly a thousand. When you say it's a tiny problem, it doesn't have any, that's a thousand actual women or girls who lost out on medals by competing out of how many is it relevant? I don't care of his one. Yeah, Andrea Andrea Andrea Andrea Andrea Andrea Andrea Andrea Andrea Andrea Andrea your name's not Jeff. Don't you find it fascinating that it's always a biological man that's transitioned into a woman that wins these things? It has, it's net, we never hear an issue about the other transition in the other way because it's like there's an advantage to being a biological man. Exactly. Let me bring in Helen. I want to bring in Helen. We've had you on before and I know your position on this. I just want to show you some footage. This is of a French transgender basketball player, Julie Tatar, who averages 21 points per game. We've just got some Ulay footage here, which I want to show the panel. Now, I don't know about you, Helen, but for all intents and purposes, that looks like a massive guy destroying much smaller women, a basketball. And that is the problem right there is that you have a trans woman who's a biological male who has a massively superior advantage physically over the other players. Now, if Julie Tatar played against men, then it would be a very different story, but Julie Tatar plays against women so that Julie Tatar can dominate against women. Now, I just put it to you. It's obvious. We can see with our own eyes what the problem is. Why can't you? Why don't you want to, as Martina says, protect women? I don't get it. I think what the problem is is what is the advantage? Is the advantage because it's a biological male? Is that advantage because they are very, very tall? Is that advantage because they're very, very mussely? I mean, Martina in her interview, I was listening to it just now. She said that when she was at school, she was the only girl that could do pull-ups. And she said that she's still very, very strong now. Thank you to her mum and thank you to her dad. So she has an advantage. And yet it was fine with her advantage. And she said, hang on, hang on, Helen, Helen, don't be selected. She also said, what's advantage? She said, hang on, hang on, Helen, hang on. I'm finishing the point that you're making, as you exclude you something very important. She also said that at her absolute peak, she wouldn't have beaten any of the top 500 men. And she's one of the greatest tennis players in female tennis history. Why are you ignoring that very salient point? Yeah. And the advantage is not because of a, it's a biological man. It's because of the puberty that that person went through. So we will have transgender girls who haven't gone through puberty yet. We will have transgender adults who didn't go to a transgender female adults who didn't go through a male puberty. We will have transgender female adults who don't have testosterone as their hormone. We will have transgender female adults who are not taller than average, like Sophie Cunningham is. And we will have transgender female adults who've never had a scrap of testosterone in their life. So we need to be really careful what we are discriminating against. What is the category? Is it height? Is it shoe size? Is it muscle? Is it? Is it biology? Because biology doesn't give you its all of the advice. Well, let me ask you, Helen, Helen, let me, Helen, Daryl's bigger ones. Don't Andrea, do not interrupt, Andrea. But I'm talking to Helen. I'm talking to Helen. Andrea, you need some panel, you need some panel, panel manners, if you don't mind, okay? You love yourself, your teacher says. Love your other panelists. Give them time to speak. So, Helen, my question would be this. We just have the men's World Cup football, okay? Soccer in America. How many women do you think we get into any of those World Cup teams? Men's? Are you asking me, so I'm not sure what the question is. How many women get into a male? How many professional women's football players, soccer players, would get into any of the men's 48 World Cup teams? But the advantage is not there's sex or there gender. It's the puberty they've got into. How many women, how many women would get into any of those teams? Give me a number. I can't give you a number. How can I possibly give you that number? Okay, I shall say. The number is a big Helen. Helen, the number is a big fat zero. You know why? Because the women are as strong, are as powerful, are as fast. Jeff, what's your basic biology? Andrea, your name's not Jeff, right? Andrea, your name's not Jeff. You said I know, because I talked before Jeff. I started talking before Jeff. Let me finish my point. You talked about Julie Tatar, right? And the last example, right? Julie Tatar is in the second lead for France, right? Averaging 29. I'm not sure if you know right now. I am in Seattle storm fan. Guess what? There's somebody who isn't the premier league in the Australia league, not the second league, but the premier league in McKenzie Homes. McKenzie Homes is Averaging 29. What is she Averaging right now in the WNBA? Three points and three rebounds. So how is Julie Tatar? Who's not even Averaging 29 in the most premier league in France, supposed to dominate against somebody like Asia Wilson, when McKenzie Homes can't even do that right now, currently in the league. I want to be a favorite in Australia. You are making mountains out of more hills in the So posing something that does not exist and is not reality. >> Girl, can I just say, if anyone's making a mountain out of a molehill, if anyone is making a mountain out of a molehill, it's people like you two, the two women on the panel, who are turning transports into a civil rights issue and to some sort of like Martin Luther King crusade. And I just have to ask, I just have to ask because it's just so weird to me and I'm a trans person saying this, why is this you guys fight? Like, there are so many trans people, all you have to do is go online, there are so many trans people just like myself who don't want this because all it does is serve optics that are horrible for the trans community. It takes away opportunities from biological women and it makes trans women look crazy. And it's a problem, one, that you guys are sticking your feet into this because I can tell you right now, maybe you've never met a trans person who actually wants you to please stop, but I will say please stop. No one with any sense in my community wants this, not one person. You guys want it more than us, the people protesting Sophie Cunningham in the audience at the WNBA. None of them were even trans. They were a bunch of just like white women. So it's like why is it just finding out that Sophie Cunningham was just asking question. Sophie Cunningham was just asked a question, I want to point that out. She didn't wear a little shirt. She didn't make it a political issue. She was simply asked a question by race-baiting, gender-baiting media people. And she answered a question honestly. And now somehow they're making a giant issue of this because people like these gals here or Al Sharpen or anyone else who want to profit and exploit some sort of civil issue and make money and be on shows and do things like this, they're gonna make this a huge thing. So Sophie Cunningham was just answering a question. She didn't make this a whole political thing. Everyone else did. Geoff, let me ask you, hang on Andrea, I'm talking to Geoff. I asked Martin in the rep over where the Caitlin Clark should speak out, given she is the sort of poster girl for the Women's Basketball game. And there's a superstar player and fantastic, whether she should speak out and she said she should. Do you think she should? I don't ever try to push anyone to do a thing that might affect their livelihood or their reputation or whatever. But I think if we're gonna talk about leaders and what people do, I think that she should make a decision. I don't think it's heroic to say Republicans buy shoes too. I don't think it's heroic to be quiet because you've got to deal with Nike. I think that I would love to hear Caitlin Clark's opinion on what this is. And if she was a true leader, she would pick a side of this very tumultuous issue. Yeah, I mean, the thing is, Andrea, let me end with you, given you've been trying to speak the entire time. But, you know, Megan Rapinoe, who I think is one of the great hypocrites of world sport, actually. Megan Rapinoe came out with all this crap about how this was an attack on women in society, right? And wanting the integrity of women's sport to be protected and the safety of women's sport. So when you have female boxes in the Olympics and you have an Italian woman who quits after 45 seconds because the Algerian boxer that she's fighting is a biological male who has tested positive for biological male chromosomes, which is why she was bound for the world championships and is now at the moment still refusing to take a simple sex test. And we know why that she said she'd never been hit that hard in her life. Women are going to die at your altar here of refusing to protect women's rights to equality and to safety. Can you live with that? It's funny that you talk about someone dying because let me tell you a story. When I was in bed, I saw somebody who had the word hate carved literally into their skin all across their forearm and a couple of years later, never asked me about that question, but a couple of years later, they came out as a trans man. I didn't understand what caused them to carve hate into their skin, but after finding out that they transitioned, it turns out that they're discomfort and being in a body in which they were now comfort, no, cause a big part of this. I'm saying to put it in there and that is something else, but it's hard and suicide or very different. You can't just conflate that. And this is the pro-trans person conflating someone with hate. Nobody is stopping and competing is formed. 40%, 40% social problems, right? So participation in sports can literally save lives because trans people, people. Nobody is stopping trans people competing is formed. Not because now yes you guys are. I'm trying to find it. Nobody is stopping. Nobody is stopping. Nobody is stopping. Nobody is stopping. Nobody is stopping. trying to make sure that people are all equal and can have participation in community, is killing people? I was saying it argued that you, by you excluding them, you increased the race and actually there it's evident. Yeah, this is the problem. There's just their biological sex. There's a 10% to say. All anybody is asking for. And suicidal, biological. So live with that. They can play. Yeah, you know, you know what? It's fancy, it's fancy words, Andrea, but the reality is nobody is saying trans people can't play school. They're just, they're just saying, they're just saying you play sport against your biological sex, because that is where you just wanted your disadvantage lies. Exactly. I'm going to leave it there. Thank you all very much for the debate. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you.