She Says Her Husband Cheated. The Law Won’t Let Her Divorce Him for a Year (with Jen Hamilton)

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I'm Ina Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Jennifer Garner. We talk all about what it means to be a good friend, Jen's encyclopedic knowledge of my recipes, and the Paris tour I put together for Jen and her daughter. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers. I needed the rage inside me to move forward, you know, and I think that the rage is what made me want to change divorce law. I'm Phoebe Judge, and this is what happened next from Criminal. We've been putting out these episodes on Tuesdays for a few months now, both here in the podcast feed. and on our YouTube channel. We think about these Tuesday episodes as more casual conversations. Me talking with someone who's got an interesting story to tell. Often that's a journalist or an author. But today, I'm talking with someone who's right in the middle of her own story. Jen Hamilton. Jen is a labor and delivery nurse who lives in North Carolina. You might know her from Instagram or TikTok, where she reaches millions of followers with her videos. What flavor baby are we having, boy or girl? And sir, what's your name? What can I call you? Because I prefer not to call you daddy. But recently, Jen has taken on a new topic, divorce laws, especially North Carolina's. Did you know that in North Carolina, if you decide that you want to divorce someone, you have to stay married to that person for a full year? Earlier this year, Jen separated from her husband and has alleged that he, quote, led a double life. Her husband has not publicly commented. I started my conversation with Jen by asking her what she knew about divorce laws in North Carolina before this year. So I had some experience with divorce law back in 2019 because I kind of separated from my husband back then for a similar situation. So we got legally separated and then ended up getting back together. But, um. Back then, I was kind of unsure of how I wanted to proceed. And so I really didn't take much heed or credence to the whole one-year thing. And then now I'm in a situation where I was like, I want to be done and I cannot be done. So earlier this year, you separated from your husband again. This time, did you know right away that you were intending to get divorced? Yes. Immediately. It was not a question in my mind anymore. It was like the behavior has continued. This is not ever going to change. I want out. And when things made the turn where I was like, okay, this is it. I also made a video on the internet and kind of just like told people what was happening. And it was my way of like walking across a bridge and then lighting a match behind me. Because I didn't want to be tempted to go back just to the familiar because it was not good for me. What did you find out earlier this year about your husband? So I found out that he had a secret TikTok account where he was messaging girls or like buying pictures from girls. And obviously, that is not cool. That is not okay in a marriage. And so that's when I made the decision like, okay, I don't want to do this. I'm not going to be competing. With other people for your attention. So if you want to do that, you go do that somewhere else. How did you find out? What was it? What was it that tipped you off? You know, that feeling that just something's not right. Well, something wasn't right. And I got on his phone in the nighttime and I couldn't find anything. It was I was like, man, I'm just going crazy. And then I saw the TikTok app and I was like, he doesn't have a TikTok. And then, no, he did. He did have a TikTok, which my thing is like, it's kind of bold. It's kind of brave because that's my home. You know, like that's where I live is TikTok. So like for you to be doing shenanigans over there, that's pretty, pretty bold. And what happened when you confronted him? A lot of like, I just remember feeling bamboozled. Like I felt like everything. Everything that I knew was a lie. I didn't even know how much was a lie at that point because we separated after that. And then I didn't find out about the actual like physical infidelity until later. Were you surprised when you started looking into how divorce works in North Carolina? Yeah. I mean, I had had some idea, but I really when we had separated before, I really didn't think too much about the divorce. The separation before to me was almost like, please change. You know, like, I mean it. I mean, business, please don't do this to me anymore. Almost like scare him into acting right. I don't know. And that's I really don't feel like in my heart. I really wanted a divorce the first time. But this time was like, I don't want anything else, you know. And so whenever I went to a lawyer, and started, you know, trying to figure out how we're going to do this in North Carolina. Yeah, you have to be separated physically in another location for 366 days before you can even file for divorce. And so for a lot of people, that is not possible. I mean, like you think about like a stay-at-home mom who doesn't have any financial resources and like having to figure out how to have two, you know, locations that they're, they're managing or financing until they can get divorced. When I first heard about, I had a friend who was going through the same thing in a much less contentious situation, but they decided they didn't want to be married in North Carolina. Yeah. And I remember when they were both telling me and I thought, well, this sounds rather old fashioned. I mean, what are you talking? If this feels like a hundred or 150 years ago. Mm-hmm. Yup. And I mean, this law was passed in 1931 and the argument on the floor when they were trying to pass this law was to give her time to come to her senses. So the misogyny within this law is baked in, you know, like they did not want women to be able to make decisions for themselves. And if they made a decision that was against the marriage, then obviously that's the wrong decision, you know? So. Um, I believe that there's so much more important things than marriage, you know, because if I took the marriage seriously, you know, I, I was down, I took the vow seriously, I lived it out. And so, you know, when you have someone else who isn't holding up their end of the bargain to me, that's a contractual, you know, thing that we could say, Hey, you did, you're, you did it wrong. You know, you violated the contract. I want out of this, you know? Are there any. Exceptions to this separation period in North Carolina? You know, um, let's say the, the woman or the man is getting out of the relationship because it's abusive. Nope. Nope. Not at all. So your ex could literally kill your kids and you could not only be forced to like be married to them still for a year. It's just so crazy. There's no, there's no domestic violence, um, protections. And so with the divorce reform. Act that they're trying to pass, um, Senator Woodson, Bradley is trying to push that through. Um, it would allow for a divorce to be final immediately upon any kind of domestic violence situation. And then it would shorten that window to six months, um, for everyone else. If, and see, that's, and a lot of people are like, well, six months is still too long in North Carolina. That's our only shot. That's our only shot at getting this through is to say, let's try six months. months because I agree. it still is too long. I think grown people should be able to put on their grown big girl panties and decide things for themselves. But in North Carolina, that is not the case. So let's just talk about where North Carolina is right now as opposed to other states. What are the other policies like in other states? I'll say that North Carolina is on the more extreme side. There are other states that it is so incredibly difficult to get divorced. I have a friend, Hadley. She was trying to get divorced in Mississippi. Now that's a crazy town place because she had to go and have a 12 day trial to get divorced. And so even though she had all this evidence of like things that he had done wrong, it didn't fall into the one of the 12 reasons that you can get divorced in Mississippi. And literally there had to be a judge that said, okay, you've convinced me that you can get divorced. And so she had to go and have a 12 day trial to get divorced. Get out of this marriage. It's so crazy. So we're on the more extreme side, but there are states that are, you know, like very red states that believe that marriage is the most important thing that could ever happen. Um, and not, not protecting women, not making sure that women are able to make decisions for themselves. And I say women, because it's mostly women who get trapped. Um, but you know, there are other states where it's like 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. And why can't we be like that? You know, cause I would have been already been done, you know, cause I that would be great. So, yeah. And I mean, the thing about North Carolina, there are other states where there's waiting periods after you file for divorce, but North Carolina, you have to file. And then I, you know, and then after day three 66, it's not like then, okay, you're divorced. I mean, then you have to go to the courts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you still have all of that stuff that you have to do. It's just after a year, you know, also let's say hypothetically, this wouldn't happen because I have an IUD, but let's say hypothetically in this next year, I fall in love and I get pregnant. Okay. In North Carolina, the father of that baby is my ex automatically. Did you know that? No. On the birth certificate? Yeah. So even, even if you have not seen that man in a year or whatever, it's not a birth certificate. It's not a birth certificate. It's not a birth certificate, whatever. He is still the legal father on the birth certificate. So you have to go to court, file affidavits and DNA tests and everything to be able to change the birth certificate to be reflective of the truth in that wild. When you heard that, that this was the deal that you were looking at in North Carolina with your husband, what did you think? Was how grateful I am for my resources, because I thought about how many people that do not have my resources that, uh, are not working, or maybe they have always stayed at home with their kids, or maybe they're being financially abused by their spouse. And I thought about how grateful I am for the resources that I have to be able to get through this time and be okay. We'll be right back. To listen without ads, join Criminal Plus at patreon.com slash criminal. Support for Criminal comes from Monarch. Paying off debt can feel like a never-ending project. Monarch can help make the finish line feel more within reach. Monarch's debt paydown simulator shows your exact debt-free date based on your real balances and payments. It lays out your whole payoff journey as a result of your real balances and payments. It's a great way to clear a motivating timeline. You can play out your options and pick the fastest one that makes the most sense for you. 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And Bombas offers more than just socks now. They also make soft and breathable underwear and t-shirts that fit just right, as well as slippers and their new moccasins. I wear Bombas myself, and for the colder weather ahead, I like their sweatshirt socks. They're made from a soft cotton blend, and they're comfortable, and warm. For every item you purchase from Bombas, they donate an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. Head over to bombas.com slash criminal and use code criminal for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash criminal, code criminal at checkout. Do you know, is there any evidence that actually shows that this waiting period does help marriages in North Carolina? I was told that the amount of people that actually, you know, like get back together is one to two percent. So we're requiring everyone to go through this to save one to two percent of people from getting remarried. You know, like, okay, you get divorced. If you fall back in love again, okay, cool, cool. Get married. I don't care. I want people to be able to make their own grown girl decisions, you know? And I think it's so crazy that we keep people trapped in that situations that they don't want to be in. But I could go, there's a door dash driver that just walked up to my house. I could go outside, get in his car, go down to the courthouse and marry that man if I wasn't already married, you know? I could marry him in a second. And that's a huge decision. We don't protect people from that, but we keep people trapped in things that they need to be out of. And there are these other kind of unusual parts of the North Carolina divorce law, like the alienation of affection. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not mad at that because I did think about that for a moment, but alienation of affection would allow you to sue whoever your, uh, your spouse was having sex with if they knew you, they knew about you. And so for me in particular, the person who was having sex with my husband, uh, she called me and she said, Oh, I knew all about you. He talked about you all the time. I just didn't know you had sex with me. I didn't know you had sex with me. So like, you know, there was a big part of me that was like, let me sue her, you know? Cause that makes me mad. That makes, that would made me furious. Like how could you as a woman for a year and a half? So there was a part of me that was like considering it, you know, because, but in that moment, I just, to be honest, like I just wanted her to hurt. Like I just wanted her to feel how I felt. And so it wasn't, it wasn't anything that was going to help me in the long run. It was just my, my hurt feelings on everything. That was just, I think you, you kind of go into that moment whenever you're, whenever somebody hurts you, that there's like this, I just want to, you know, have destruction, you know? So, but I kind of got over that. The other thing that's crazy, and this is wild that this actually happens. I have a friend who got separated from her husband. Found out that she was going on dates. And guess what? Her public adultery trial is this year. What state was she in? North Carolina. Wow. Isn't that crazy? So even if you, you're not even allowed to, to, so what are you supposed to do? Just be in a box for 366 days? Basically. Yeah. But for me, I'm like, it would be, it would be wild for my ex to try to go down that road because baby, we can have a public adultery trial. You know what I'm saying? So even though, you know, at one point you did consider suing under this alienation of affection, part of the old law, after you heard from the woman, you're, you are, you're okay with losing that in favor of updating these old fashioned divorce laws? A hundred percent. Because as much, as I felt like I wanted the other person who hurt me and knew about me, like that's, I think that's the kickers. Like you knew, and you, you still did this over and over and over and over and over and over again. The vindication that I needed is in living my life well. And so I want to be like leaving the world a better place than I found it and me having more money. Doesn't accomplish that. Me trying to change the world does. What made you want to, I mean, you had this very public, you're a public figure, you had this very public scandal, I don't know what you'd call it, but what made you want to go a step further and say, I want to change these laws, you know, I'm going to be fine, I can afford to deal with the 366, but I want to work to change divorce laws in North Carolina? Because that moment where I was like, thank God, I have all the resources that I do, made me mad for everyone else, you know, so even though, like, if I work my tail off, and, you know, talk about this, and we get it passed, you know, this bill will never come in time for me, there, there's no, there's not a scenario in which this will help me at all. However, it will help so many people who come behind me. And to me, that is worth it. These bills have been proposed before in North Carolina, and they haven't had any success. Yes, and they get shot down. Why do you think that is? I think that there is a lot of, how do I say this nicely? I don't know that I can. There's a lot of, like, misogyny. There's a lot of misogyny. There's a lot of old white dudes who think, Oh, you make a vow, you got to stick to it, you know, but a lot of the times, it's the man who is not doing that. I'm not saying that that's 100%. But geez, Louise, like, let us, let us ladies free, you know, it's so crazy. And so I'm hoping that yes, this, this gets passed, and it does help women, but it will also help men who are who find themselves in abusive or trap situations, too. So it helps. It helps everybody. So I don't see why anybody could be against this, especially the domestic violence part. Like, how can you, how can you possibly say that, that somebody who got their ass beat needs to stay legally married to that person for a whole year to just make sure that they don't want to be with that person? Like, that's so stupid. Do you think it'll work this time? Do you think it'll get better? God, I hope so. I hope just us talking about it. I hope that Woodson gets reelected so that it like, we have a shot. I, I think that if I just really hope that people are listening to people's stories, because I, I did a news interview the other day about this. And I should the interviewer said, What's one thing that you wish that you could say to the people who would be deciding this? And I said, just listen to people's stories. Because it's easy to look at something on a piece of paper and be like, Oh, well, marriage is important to me. So nope, I don't want to do that. Listen to these people. Listen to these people who get trapped in these real life circumstances. And I bet that they would never be able to do that with a clear conscience, you know? Did you ever think that 20 year old you, 21 year old you would be doing this talking about this right now? was very like evangelical Christian growing up, went to Liberty University. One of the very first times that I ever had sex, I got pregnant. It was like virgin one month, pregnant the next. And so I then felt what it was like to be on the other side of, you know, shame. And I thought that my way out of the shame was getting married. You know, like if I just marry this man who is now the father of my baby, you know, we're going to be good. We're going to be all right. And so if I knew at 22 years old that I was going to be like championing divorce, divorce law changes, I would have been so devastated. I think that, you know, sometimes I'll hear people say like, if you could go back and you could tell yourself one thing, you know, I don't think I would have the heart to tell her, you know, cause I don't think that I was strong enough to know what was to come. I think that I, everything that has happened in my life needed to happen. The way that it, that it did in order for me to be where I am now, even like my husband cheating in the most diabolical way possible, um, needed to happen for me to leave because I love that man. Oh, I love that man with everything inside me, like, and outside me, every hair on my head, love that man. And if he didn't do what he did, I would have kept forgiving the things that I had done. I had already forgiven. So I, I think that it needed to happen in the way that it did for me to be, uh, where I am for me to have the strength that I have now. Um, I'm now of the, of the thought that girl, I can, I can handle anything. This is not a, this is not a sign to the universe, by the way, to test that theory. But, uh, I feel, I feel very strong. I feel, um, you know, I burned my bedsheets. Like there was this moment where I had to get so angry and so mad about what I was going through that it almost like, uh, was the, I needed the rage inside me to move forward, you know? And I think that the rage is what made me want to change divorce law. Cause it's like, can I cuss? Yeah. Okay. Let me do whatever I can to burn this shit down so that people don't have to go through this. Well, um, Jen Hamilton, thank you very much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. You can find Jen Hamilton on Instagram and TikTok at the link in our show notes. She also wrote a book called Birth Vibes. You can find a link to that in our show notes too. I'm heading out on tour next month with a brand new live show, and I hope you'll come see it. You can find all of the tour dates and get your tickets at thisiscriminal.com slash live. And don't forget that you can watch the videos of these Tuesday conversations, which were created by me and Jen Hamilton. What happened next at youtube.com slash criminal podcast. Thanks for listening. This is blue from the UPS store with a very special holiday announcement for small business owners. We're open. Let's be real. Your deadlines don't take holidays. So while the other guys are checking out, the UPS store is here to pack, ship, print, tread, notarize, and check more things off your list all year long. With over 5,500 locations, there's a blue near you at the UPS store. Shredding services are provided by Iron Mountain as is. Visit theupsstore.com slash shredding for full details. Most locations are independently owned. 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