She's the youngest woman to have led a Fortune 500 company and now running a $100B+ healthcare giant 2/17/26

Sarah London, a former Division I tennis player at Harvard, she went on to become the youngest woman to lead a Fortune 500 company. Now, as CEO of Centine, she's steering the $100 billion healthcare giant in what she calls an incredibly challenging year for the industry. As policy shifts and cost pressures reshape the American healthcare system. As CNBC changemaker, Sarah London is in the Changemakers and Power Players spotlight. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. You were named to our inaugural 2024 CNBC Changemakers list for your role leading Centine, which you've been CEO of since 2022. It's a thrill to have you on this podcast. Well, thank you so much for having me and I was honored to be part of the inaugural class. Well, so what I think is so interesting about your career is you were the youngest named when you were named CEO of Centine. You were the youngest Fortune 500 CEO who was a woman named to that role. So huge role, running this massive healthcare company at a very young age. But what people may not know about you is that you were a Division I tennis player. And it seems to me like there's this huge correlation between sports and success in business, particularly for women, so much data about this. And I would be curious to go back to what happened before your career and your career as a tennis player to hear a little bit about how that experience being such a competitive tennis player impacted your approach to leadership. How much do you think tennis shape to you are as a leader? I definitely think being an athlete, I mean, being an athlete is such a huge part of who I am and sort of my identity. And there are, there are a number of different components of that experience that I think have been incredibly helpful. And he first and foremost, I'm incredibly competitive and that never stops. That is like an innate thing. And so having a way to channel that obviously, when I was younger through sports, that, you know, and sort of hone that competitive framework and the process of, you know, not just winning and wanting to win and hating to lose, but also like the process of losing and failing as part of getting better. And I think that, you know, that has been a big piece of one of the things I say is that this job in particular has probably gone the farthest in terms of like beating the perfectionism out of me because it is so big and complicated and there is no such thing as perfect. And that, that actually, it's ironic because I actually wish I'd had a little bit more of what I know now back when I was an athlete and had embraced the failure even more because it is about, you know, how you get better. But it's also, you know, teamwork, right? And like this idea that you are, you're on the court, you're in that moment, but you're part of a team, you're part of sort of a bigger goal and endeavor. And what it means to have extreme accountability in your individual role, but also be part of trying to make sure that everybody around you is also getting the support they need and achieving what you want to as a broader team. And I think that is another direct connection is that, you know, the CEO job is, if done well, you should get all of the blame and none of the credit because the credit is really your team and the people that you have around you who are doing an incredible amount of work every day. And so much in that answer, I'm thinking about the research that I cited in my book about how the real value of sports to female leaders is not is not necessarily just being part of the team, but the real value is actually the failure and the frequent experience with failure. And the fact that failing forces you to reexamine what you did, how you could do differently, what was in your control, what was out of your control. Before we get to the team work part, I want to dig in more to the fact that tennis is an individual sport, yes, you're part of a team, but talk to me about how that idea of discipline and strategy is something that you learned out of very young age and it sounds like was sort of inherent to who you are, but also really trained. Yes, there is an incremental intensity, I think, just not to take anything away from team sports, but it is a different, like you are alone on the court. Now I love to play doubles because I like to have at least one other person, like, be figuring stuff out with. But it is, it's like it is you on the court by yourself trying to figure out the puzzle that's in front of you, what, you know, who the competitor is, is what's the dynamic, what do you have to do, what do you have to do better, and I do think that it is probably why I kind of love the intensity of that those challenges where like you are staring at a problem and you're like, you're staring at a problem and you have to figure it out. And it drives a very singular accountability because you win or lose on the court. Yes, some of it is what is the opponent or the challenge that you have faced in that moment, but it's like how did you rise to the occasion, and it's really all about whether you got there or not. I like to think about people having leadership superpowers. What do you think yours is? Is it that competitiveness? Is it the fact that you love to take on these challenges? I don't know if it's a superpower. I do think I'm sort of fatally attracted to impossible problems. I think I would, I would hope I like to think that my superpower is actually listening, which is actually connected to what we're talking about. And it's the idea that when you're facing really hard questions, when you're facing like the 51, 49% calls, which are really the decisions that end up or should end up on the CEO's desk is everything else, you know, the team is tackling. You have to try to take in all the data. You have to listen to the different perspectives. You have to try to solve the puzzle. And that can't just be, oh, I think I know the answer. Right. It has to be, okay, what are the people I really deeply trust telling me? What is my instinct telling me? And so that like asking questions and listening in order to gather the data to try to make the best possible decisions, at least is the thing that I think has served me best in navigating probably the most challenging situations. So if the competitiveness and this drive were inherent to who you are as a person and as a leader, is the listening something that you learned over time? Or is that something that you were naturally good as as well? Or is that something that has to be learned? Well, I think my parents have probably said I wasn't very good at listening to that. But I was a middle child, right? So you're like always, I don't know, it's sort of always taking in the data around you and trying to learn. There's a certain, I don't know, it's an interesting mix of both being very, I think being competitive is not, for some people being competitive is like meeting to be the smartest person in the room and needing to have the right answer. Like be the one that has the right answer. For me, the competition has always been about the winning. Like what is the definition of winning? And so in any given scenario, winning should be the best possible answer, not necessarily me having the answer. So I think it's sort of developed out of that idea of like what's the bigger win and how do you get to the bigger win? And a lot of times, especially as you're coming up in your career, like more often than not, most of the time you don't have the most information you don't have the answer. And I've always been, you know, in roles that were, you know, newer to me and challenges and you're sort of always want to be learning, but that means you always have to be learning. You have to be asking questions and figuring out what's the data I need to get to the right answer for where we need to go. So the right answer, not necessarily my answer. Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely not. It's interesting because thinking about tennis being an individual sport, but also what you're saying about being listening to your team. And I'm wondering if for you there was a transition from thinking of yourself as like an individual player who was part of your team to actually like being the team leader and really mobilizing the team. I mean, how did you, was that a tough transition for you as an individual athlete to being a leader of lots of people? So the truth is I don't actually think I was a very good tennis player. I mean, I like, I did well, but the intensity of that individual piece, like I loved having other people. That's why I really loved playing doubles because I loved having a thought partner. I loved having like the dynamic that comes with being on a team. And very early in my career, I was in roles where I was and I was lucky because I got to be part of very high functioning teams. Ironically, most of the people that I worked with, most of the women I worked with were all team sport elite athletes. And that dynamic of like being able to figure it out together and win as a team like very quickly kind of became primary versus the intensity. Like for me that the experience as an individual athlete has led to very, very, very high individual accountability in terms of delivering the piece that is mine to deliver, but I much prefer winning as a team. So what were those experiences that help were sort of your formative team team experiences. So very early. So one of my first jobs in health care and first jobs, well, maybe not first jobs out of college, but sort of the path to where I am now was being part of a data analytics startup that was focused on really the horizon of digitization of health care data and understanding, you know, being able to like fundamentally understand the landscape differently. And that team that was a startup and everybody on that team when I joined the company, which was probably only about 100 people at that time. Every single person on that team had worked with somebody else on the team before. And so there was this incredibly high degree of yes expertise, but also trust. And that bond of like we are trying to build something together and there's such a high degree of trust that you can have open debate and disagreement because you're really trying to wrestle again to the best possible decision. And then just those experiences that you have in a startup like we had this thing called the Thanksgiving massacre, which was like we needed to deliver a whole new piece of software to a client the first weekend December and like the entire company worked the entire Thanksgiving weekend. Everybody took like two hours off to go have Thanksgiving dinner with their families and then we were right back online. And like just the bonding that that creates and again the trust and the idea that everybody's bringing the same level of accountability that is just magic like if you can build that culture and that's the culture that you know we're building on its and team. You can build that culture of like very high trust high talent high accountability. Just magical stuff can happen. Yeah, when I think about what has distinguished you as a leader obviously was the fact that you became a fortune 500 CEO at such a young age, but also you have this reputation for incredible transparency. And you do these videos with for your team for your employees, which is pretty unusual. What is your big picture approach to transparency and where did these videos come from? The transparency thing is like anyone would tell you like I should never play poker. I just I can't not. And I think it's important because again the strength of this organization and the complexity of what we're trying to accomplish is that both of those things are so great. You have to like you have to have people on the journey they have to know where we're going they have to know why and you've got to create the communication frankly by directionally and so wanting to make sure that I had a chance to connect with the employee base on a very regular basis and share again sort of what is the where we going the storytelling of that but also the why and not just what are we trying to change but what are we trying to do. And what what should that look like but there's also a regular I have a very regular cadence of meeting with our team members and not obviously I have my team but like meeting with folks who are earlier in their career or you know more broadly distributed across the organization to just get candid feedback about what's working what's not what are we not seeing what's not bubbling up how can we be thinking about what's not going to be a good example. But bubbling up how can we be thinking about things differently and that feels really important to me to kind of keep a pulse on you know is where we're going you know is that resonating is it is it really landing the right way with the folks who are going to have to do most of the heavy lifting and then just what are ways that we can be doing better because I don't you know I've never done this job before I'm now done it for four years but like I've never right every day is a new day and so I don't know what I'm going to do is I'm going to do that. And so I don't pretend that I'm doing it perfectly and I'm always looking for feedback will be right back after this short break. And so what made you decide to start as CEO to start having this kind of communication and this kind of transparency was already pushed back internally where people are like why is she doing this how did that go I think it was it was a little bit of sort of building on having as soon as I stepped into the role like we started bringing the whole organization together you know a couple of times a year to have all employee town halls and again really just talk to folks about where we were going and through multiple lenses really trying to help them hear the logic and meet senior leaders and get to know them better and then that evolved into you know the I think the opportunity to do that. Opportunity seeing the opportunity for a more regular cadence and frankly as we went through 2025 which was an incredibly challenging year for our industry and a very challenging year for centine the need to and intense desire to tell our team members what we knew as soon as we knew it and really bring them on the journey as well and so it's just been this sort of building drumbeat and I think it's I think it's been well received and we again we always ask for feedback about you know is it who else do you want to hear from who else can you know I bring on our sort of podcasts. We talk we'll go through earnings are you know our CFO Drew will join me and we'll talk through kind of what was the investor response we've had our head of culture come in talk about all the good that work that we've been doing over the last couple years to kind of you know we're re right what centines culture looks like and how that is going to work going forward so it's still evolving but I I really don't think there's too much communication that you can do. What have you learned about communication and transparency in the past four years of being CEO of centine they you would want to share with people not who are not necessarily other CEOs but just anyone who's trying to be a better leader within their own universe whether it's a better employee or a better partner what is your advice about communication. I do think it's it's really easy to fall into like the either the well I know this stuff and so everybody must know this right or I understand something and therefore everybody must equally understand it and also they'll like I don't know if people really want to hear from me and I think you know it is especially when you're trying to drive change. It is really really important to revisit messages and and to go like a click deeper on not just what we are doing but why we are doing it and and also you know what we need from the team in terms of making these things successful I also really prefer and obviously it's not you can't do it all. You can't do it all the time but I really don't like just talking at the organization is really important to me to as much as possible sort of be in a dialogue because there are really good questions that people have about not just what does this mean for me but how do I carry the message forward or what about x y and z and those are all learning opportunities. But that the story telling is a really really and I don't say that lightly right like you can go to your telling stories know like painting the vision painting the where we're going and why. And I learned this when I was at I was at that start up in a chief product officer role is the item. This was yeah, he metica that we were then acquired by optimum. But that that vision is actually a really powerful organizing force like it carries the gravity of like almost an orbiting planet right it's like we're going like we're going to the moon right and like there's a gravitational pull to that that if you can if you give that to people and you give enough detail. Then if you're off in the middle of a yeah, I don't know a negotiation with a vendor and you're trying to figure out like which way to go like you've got touch stones about wait a minute. I know this is what we're trying to accomplish right like I know at centine like we are not just focused on growth like we have been in the past like we want to deliver industry leading outcomes and industry leading cost structures who how do I look at this problem in front of me through that lens. So long winded way of saying I don't actually think you can over communicate. And I think it's important to make sure that the communication as much as possible is in all directions you just alluded to the fact that that that centine is a mission driven company and it sounds like going back decades the beginning of your career you've been mission driven in terms of data and health care and outcomes. How do you think about making sure that your mission is clear not just for yourself but also within the environment in this incredibly challenging time. Yeah, I mean I do think I fundamentally think that centine is a different organization and I would like to take credit for that but I can't it is part of how special the company was as it was built and it is really a testament to the reason that the 60,000 people who work in the organization came to centine myself included. The level of focus on impact and the mission as a sort of guiding force is innate in in the company and I think it has allowed us to navigate not just sort of the turnaround that we've been executing operationally but the layers of challenges that we've faced from you know relative to like a changing policy landscape and obviously just the dynamics of this last year in particular. And so making sure that one we acknowledge that we honor that we reinforce that internally and then to your point also making sure that that is part of how we show up in the market and how we show up for our customers and thinking about you know yes how do we honor the contracts that we have and serve as a partner to state and federal government. And make sure that our members have the support that they need and the access to care but how do we also leverage the size and scale the organization to help make the system smarter how do we bring forward data to say you know as you're considering policy decisions. And so we can share things that we can you know we can empower you with because we see a landscape across 30 states and how Medicaid programs are running and what's effective and what's not and where do we have providers who are doing incredible work that we can actually scale like how do you lean into the power that we have given size scale and experience to enhance the mission because the the cool thing about centine is that when you deliver on the mission you are also delivering margin because if you deliver better outcomes for communities at a lower cost you are saving taxpayer dollars and you're increasing the health equity and the health asset of that community and so there isn't that like moral hazard which allows us I think to lean into both things equally. Yeah there's been so much attention on the fact that the American health care system is about the volume of care so it's like running the test getting paid for the the for the execution of the care as opposed to the outcomes when you think about your background and data and this outcome driven care how are you embracing AI or just even thinking about the power of technology to evolve your business. I think it's very exciting and I get I get really excited about the really unsexy part of it which is that there are billions probably close to trillions at this point of dollars that are being spent in the hell and in around the health care system that are just wasted because we are operating still a very manual fragmented analog system in a lot of ways and so just the idea that you know that we could run the entire back end of our business digitally in an automated fashion with the goal of zero human intervention and you know driving to high degree of speed and accuracy in like you know stuff like paying claims right like we're not getting into care decisions we're talking about just driving down the cost of administering the system that we have built I think there is huge opportunity there and that is a major focus of this organization over the next couple of years because I think we're finally to point where the technology is inflected and there's enough digital data and it's organized. That you can run hard at some of those things. It what that should lead to eventually is all of these other use cases that are going to be a little bit more complicated and figuring out how to make sure that you always have a human in the loop when you need to that you always have a clinician in the loop when you need to. But the reality is that we have an increase increasingly we have a consumer base that is going to demand agency right like I self diagnose on chat GPT and like I'm willing to make that decision and take that risk the idea that we would you know we can't force that risk on to others at this moment but like increasingly you are going to have you know AI and digitally native consumers who are used to being able to ingest data process leverage whatever expertise they look to and make decisions and it's what happened frankly in financial services in you know in the 90s and 2000s we've got to a place where people were managing an e-trade portfolio because they could make their own decisions with data. That is the journey ahead and there are challenges in that but that is where the industry should be going and it will solve fundamental problems that we have today around things like access to care for underserved populations and shortages of behavioral health or even just like primary care. And you know resources in rural communities like there are so many bridges that we can build and I'm not like an AI high pst but when you just look at the pieces that are in place like we should be able to fundamentally change the cost structure of health care and then invest those dollars in a completely different front and experience. AI is a democratizing force for healthcare 100% yeah so you're you're talking all these changes that technology could bring the positive opportunities but you've also referenced this really fraught time in healthcare industry for so many different reasons. How do you as a CEO make long term investments and do long term planning when there is so much near term volatility. Yeah I mean it's um it is hard in the face of the challenges but you have to you have to take a long term view is I think especially right now now you can't be. You can't be sort of insensitive to the realities and you have to explain the why right like why why is the work that centine is going to undertake over the next couple of years so critical and so fundamental to frankly what are. Members and our customers and our investors should want us to be doing and we have to be held accountable for that right we have to be able to describe those milestones and show that those investments are delivering on the value that we we believe that they should. But it is it's very easy to get caught in the short term and I think it's really important to sort of push back on that it's really important to have a leadership team and a board that is thinking longer term but but you also have to you have to same thing as change internally like you have to bring people on that journey and explain the why because it's not. It's not orthogonal to what everybody should want it's just a question of you know what's happening today versus. Long term success in a moment where the world is fundamentally changing will be right back with more after a short break. And I guess given all of that how do you personally handle it your job is really hard it's really stressful how do you stay focused and not get distracted by maybe what's noise maybe what's not noise. I think well I run into those back sort of the beginning of the conversation that being an athlete who's also total nerd like I had this natural balance in my life of. You know the thing that I was supposed to be doing that was my job when I was younger which was going to school and you know achieving all the things I was supposed to do and I had this other pursuit that was sort of equally challenging and for me it was really critical to have balance. And so making sure that I have ways to constructively sort of step out of you know like when I started in this role was like that like that accountability reflex kicked in and I like you know barely saw my kids for the first nine months and I was just like you know all day every day and it you do burn out and it's not actually helpful because the way that you step back and you get perspective. And you figure out like what's the stuff to listen to and what not is by literally stepping back sometimes. And so I will not say that I'm perfect at it but I still very much try to sort of create that balance in my life and you know my family naturally does that. They are at the end of the day like you know my kiddos are the most important thing and they're a they're an important touchdown they also keep me really humble you know the first time I was on one of these like. Women's most powerful lists or whatever like my my then eight year old was like I mean you're like 20 second like if you were first basement no one would even draft you if you were 20 second I'm like okay great. So like perspective and balance and really good mentorship and you know thought partners like my you know I've board members who are wonderful at like helping me you know keep perspective and other CEOs that I talk to who just let you sort of step out of the moment sometimes can be really important. I want to hear about the mentorship and also about the balance we talk about life hacks on this podcast but I want to go back to the burnout because there's a lot of talk about burnout in our culture and for everyone it's different. And I think for a lot of hard driving people it's hard to even identify when they're suffering from burnout and I think for a long time people didn't think burnout was even a thing or that you could or there was any negative implications of working too hard I certainly feel like I was raised that way. What was burnout for you and what did you do about it. Ultimately it it manifests as sort of like just the depletion of energy and again like it's it's interesting that this to your point that you know there's some question of whether burn out to things so not to sort of go back to it but like there's no question for athletes that burnout is a thing right because it's not like I'm not going to be a part of it. Right because you you know we I had kids that I grew up playing tennis with it like by the time they were 15 they had tennis elbow they had surgeries like they literally physically couldn't do the same thing over and over and over again and have it not take a toll and professional athletes will tell you that you know there you have to take entire days off. I think Carlos Alcaraz before the finals of the US open last year like went and played golf like he didn't even hit the day before he's like I just need to go be somewhere else and so that level anything that you are doing in sort of a single lane in a repetitive way to me there's like no question that at some point like your body your mind your spirit will just sort of like it needs a break. When did you realize when did you hit burnout was it you said nine months in. Yeah I the I think the like the level of stress and just sort of the I'm going to get up at four o'clock every morning and like you know I had binders like this that I was reading and you know I like stopped making time to work out and I you know work sort of took every precedent over you know everything else including my family. And I got to a point where like I realized it wasn't actually making me better at my job and I drove my kids it was probably yeah yeah it was probably like almost a year in I am drove my kids to school one morning and I realized was the first time I had driven them to school all year right it was like I was getting like one in for the calendar year at the very end and they were asking me about work and you know one of them said you know what's what's going on you seem really stressed. Which was the first clue that like my kids pay attention and they see that right so it's like I think I'm just handling it but like it spills over I was explaining you know I've got that really hard decision that I need to make and it's not really clear you know which way to which way to go and my from the back seat my kid was like well sounds like you should just make it choose one and see how it goes and I was like yeah I was like I'm just going to do it. Yeah like from the match that easy sometimes so you know figuring out how to get a little bit more perspective and a little more balance and a little more humor into all of it all it kind of came back to me. Yeah and so did you do you have any mentors you mentioned mentors did you have any mentors you went to during this period who helped you figure out how to attain that kind of balance that you have now yeah I have so CEOs including the CEO who I worked for at Humatica I started calling him to ask questions about you know different things but this idea that I was going to do that. It was interesting to me because like there is actually very little difference between running a 100% company or a 1000% company or a 60,000% company in terms of just like first principles of some of this stuff and you know I I also got an executive coach who you know equally sort of helped me make sure that I'm checking my own balance in terms of the things that I know I have to do in order to be in shape to show up for the for the job and the challenge every day and a lot of it is like me you sure I'm working out every day and like getting enough sleep I mean it's basic stuff but it makes a huge difference. Yeah you talk about your kids I do think I have two boys and I feel like they they keep you honest there yeah they keep on is how old are your kids now. 10 and 12 10 and 12 yeah mine are they still like me yeah 11 and 14 mine still like me for now. How do you what is your support system at home and how do you make sure you're focused when you're with them and not stress about work as your kids said. Well I'm very lucky in that when I stepped into this role my husband stepped back and is a full time dad and is amazing at it and I think you know everybody needs a support system and what that looks like you know it can be different for everybody. But it was important to feel like for me to feel like you know my kids were getting sort of that intensity of support that I knew I was not going to be able to give them every single day. But it's you know I've always believed that there's not like work life balance is this like mushy thing and I always joke that like you know back in the day when we are learning how to write essays in like fifth grade they talked about like the block method versus the shuttle method and I'm like work life balance is the shuttle right it's like you're here and you're there and it's like in the middle of everything and at least for me again everybody's a little bit different. So I don't have a really a hard line and I actually think that's that probably means that there are times when I need to do a better job of like dividing the world but it it it also means that my kids like very much know what I'm doing they know that my job is hard they know that it demands a lot and my hope is that they're seeing that that's not only like a good thing. But that I actually love my job and so that is something that they can have to but it is you know it's a balance I I would like to say I come home and like turn off work but when when you come home and you sit down at the dinner table and your 12 year olds like what happened today mom a stock went down like there is no escaping. But I think it's really they hold you accountable but I think it's so good to I mean I talked to my kids at what I do all the time I make them listen to podcasts and watch segments and and and episodes of what I've done because I do think there's something about if I'm not going to be with them all the time I want them to understand why and for you you're communicating your purpose you have a big job I think it's so good to talk to them about at least this is what I tell myself when we talk about my my stories at the at the dinner table. I completely agree and I you know my father traveled a ton for work and was you know gone a lot and I my what I digested from that one was like when he was there it really mattered and he was there when it really mattered. But he loved his job it's not something he ever said out loud it was just like you knew that and what that felt like what it felt like to have somebody who wasn't just working hard but like loved what they were doing like it actually brings such positive energy and so I I completely agree that like the this the subtle or even like the more you know obvious lesson about that and saying like this is what they were doing. And saying like this is what I do I love doing it and I want you to understand that I do think that it leaves a fingerprint because it did for me yeah and we all want our kids to love what they do as well. So I want to talk a little bit about life hacks you have you have an executive coach you have some mentors. You have a support system at home do you want to you unexpected life hacks to get you through the day or the week I interviewed Chelsea or her short news that she has this giant calendar for the year. See you for. She has a calendar on the wall that's like a giant calendar she plans out for the year. Anything like that you do to keep yourself. Awesome say I know I that was pretty cool. Sounds like you're good about sleep do you do wearable do you have wearables do you have an ordering no which is funny because everybody's like you're such a day to get I can't believe you don't have this and I'm like. I just sometimes there's too much data like I know I have to get seven hours of sleep or like you don't want to be around me. And I I stay sort of pretty disciplined about that like my my big like the biggest thing for me is reading is like a huge outlet for me. And so my general like there's like direct correlation between how high the stack of good books I have to read you know squeezed into free time is versus like mental wellness. So that's a big one. Oh fiction all well written you know not to brag about fiction I love mysteries and romance novels I admitted that's the whole company in our first town hall someone was like are there. You know what like biographies and leadership have you read and I was like well I feel like most of lessons I've taken about leadership I take from watching. Like just seeing good and bad in action and then I went on to say you know mostly when I read I read. Trashing novels and there's like wow I just admitted that to the whole company. Well you said transparency was really important to you it it's like whatever that's that's who I am. But I don't know I that the life hack that I'm I'm digging at the moment is on Sunday nights they made make a huge batch of pancake batter and I put it in the fridge so that I can make waffles for my kids when I'm home before they go to school which takes like three minutes. Yeah I feel like oh my god I made them like a homemade breakfast and I'm like such you know I'm crushing it on the mom front and it's like a little thing that I feel like I can do for them in the moment that I'm going to definitely see them that day. So that that's the one I'm the most proud of currently that's a really good one I actually made pancakes on Sunday I made extra pancakes I put half of them in the fridge and I had them on Monday. But I feel like that was kind of cheating I was just talking to the CEO of MIDI health and she was saying that you know she has these guilty pleasures like it's okay to drink to drink diet coax and I was saying like I try to avoid it. Do you have guilty pleasures I feel like in the healthcare space you must be surrounded by all this data about what's healthy and what's not healthy. You're you're getting your sleep in your exercise but do you have any guilty pleasures other than your romance. Other than more it's all those no I mean I again I vote I'm always sort of a believer in like balance and sort of everything in moderation like I you know I try to be gluten free except when there's pizza around you know it's like. So I don't know if I have anything I don't know if I would call it sort of a guilty pleasure on the eating front but yeah more about more about balance yeah well that's a great note to end on and I hope you have a great stack of books by your bed and time to read them is the other thing yeah there's not as much of that but I do it I tend to read when I'm on the on the treadmill so I try to like double up on the thing is really doing audio book or you reading on it. I'm paper I got I got a hold it so like on the elliptical or the treadmill I'm I'm the nerd that's reading at the gym impressive you know impressive well transparent mission driven and also hugely efficient it sounds like with your with your reading and your exercise. So I thank you so much for for taking the time to talk to us today about your leadership of centine and all these other great takeaways. Oh thanks for having me this is great. [BLANK_AUDIO]