‘She’s the One’ With Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Wesley Morris

the rewatchable is brought to you by the ringer podcast network where you can find the big picture with sean fantasy yes that pod's still going we're still doing it movies are happening yeah a lot of movies the odysseys is coming the odyssey yeah seen it soon odysseys is that gonna be the sequel uh huh oh no yeah but it's s-e-a-s three s and it's set in the high seas o2 two oda two c two oh like too fast too furious i like it wesley morris is here we used to work with him a long time ago back at a website called the called uh grantland that had podcasts and video and all kinds of things and now you're at the new york times and you have a podcast there called cannonball yes and you write things i do write things and i write things what are you writing uh well the reason that we're starting late is because i'm in the middle of trying to get published a potato salad essay oh well well we'll talk about that later right now we're gonna talk about you don't want to talk about potatoes now we're gonna talk about the potato salad of mid-90s rom-coms oh a movie very dear and dear to my heart and sean's heart and maybe not to wesley's but he's promised to be nice i cannot wait to talk to you guys about this because and then craig's take at the end this is gonna be elite she's the one is next this episode is brought to you by viore all right let's talk about a category we appreciate clothes that stay in the rotation viore are in that spot their course shorts are good for workouts travel day weekend whatever and the strato tech t ridiculously soft it's the kind of gear you keep reaching for because it's comfortable while still looking put together get 20% off your first purchase at viore.com slash rewatchables and discover the versatility of viore clothing exclusions apply visit the website for full terms and conditions this episode is brought to you by sleep doctor let's say a good sleep is wildly underrated you can do everything right eat well wear well work out sleep seven or eight hours and still feel exhausted if you snore wake up tired or crash during the day it might be worth looking into sleep doctor offers an at-home sleep study done in your own bed they accept most insurance plans so you can pay as little as zero dollars visit sleep doctor dot com you The male POV rom-com, Almost a Unicorn. We used to these during the female perspective. Apatow was able to do it with knocked out 40-year-old version. His whole universe had Forgetting Sarah Marshall. We had High Fidelity. We have Hitch, a movie that might be on the rewatchables this month for all we know. Interesting. 500 Days of Summer, Crazy Stupid Love. Occasionally, we have the rom-coms told through the lens of the men. Something Ed Burns loved to do. Ed Burns does it here, and she's the one. His follow-up to Brothers McMullen, a very formative movie. We'll let Sean start here because Sean's a Long Island kid who loved Ed Burns. Let's just do the Sean-Ed Burns comp. Yeah, let's do it. Let's go. Let's just do it. Let's get it over with. Because I'm. I'm 13 years old when the Brothers McMullen arrives in theaters, and. After having been a thing at Sundance. Huge Sundance movie that was effectively pre-bought by Fox, but still a legendary story where Ed Burns, who's working as a PA on Entertainment Tonight, hands a video cassette of a rough cut to Robert Redford, who's there promoting a movie. I don't know what movie it was. Big Shot Bob. So Big Shot Bob, who, of course, founded and runs the Sundance Film Festival, takes the tape, hands it to one of his folks who works at the festival. That person watches the tape, calls Ed Burns, and says to Ed Burns, are you the guy who handed Robert Redford the tape? And he says, yes. And he says, is this your movie? And he says, yes. And he says, we're interested in your movie, but it said this was a rough cut. So what did you cut out? And Ed Burns, lying through his teeth, is like, well, I finished the film, and here are the scenes that I've cut out. He's done none of this. In fact, the movie is unfinished. And he needs more money to finish the movie. Oh, wow. So he lies to the guy from Sundance. The guy hears what he's going to cut out. And he says, great. Lo and behold, he makes a series of connections through people. He gets to Tom Rothman at 20th Century Fox, who gives him 50 grand for a first look deal to get this movie made. The movie goes to Sundance. Massive sensation at Sundance. Wins the grand jury prize. This is all happening on Long Island and is becoming a thing on Long Island. Because this is becoming one of the quintessential. quintessential Long Island movies when it gets released in 1995. So she's the one in the lead up to it. There's a lot of anticipation for it. I'm just a teenager. I'm like kind of sort of getting aware of this. I'm aware of it because my parents are aware of it. My parents have gone to see this movie in movie theaters. Everybody in Long Island at their dinner tables who care about movies, obviously, are talking about it. But Ed Burns is the son of a cop, just like myself. He is from a family with multiple siblings, raised Irish Catholic, obsessed with Woody Allen, and constantly thinking about movies. All day, every day. And all of his sideline jobs are to get closer to movies. Who can relate? I mean, to me, this was incredible. Now, I don't know that I loved Ed Burns' movies through and through, but I felt like immediately connected to them based on the story. And it's a little bit like rooting for a sports team, where sometimes you have good seasons and sometimes you have down seasons. But the first two seasons of Ed Burns, these first two movies, I completely love. Well, you also saw Brothers McBowlin when you were 13, which brings up the Bill Simmons story, Wesley. The movie you loved when you were 13 becomes your favorite movie for life, or at least one of them. Mine was 48 Hours. It's critics. It's criticism proof. You can't, you can't, even your, you don't have access to your criticism brain watching a thing that means that much to you. Like, even if you applied it, it wouldn't, your heart wouldn't be in it. So what was your 13 movie? 13? I would say for me, it's like 11. Okay. Yeah, you don't, yeah, I guess. Broadcast, that 1987, 1987, 1988, like that, I was, that, those years were like truly the greatest years of my cultural life. And everything I saw, even the things I recognized as an 11 and 12 year old that were shit, I I didn't care. Mine was 80 to 82, obviously, because 80 was all the comedies. And then what was yours, Craig? Well, when I was 13, Superbad came out. Oh, yeah. We've talked about this. I mean, this is it. You can't, I wish that I had been able, I wish I had been 13 when Superbad came out. I was, I don't believe in too old, too young, whatever, but like, I, I would have loved to have not had access to my brain watching Superbad. Or you could have. Or you could have. I had access to my son at like age eight when we let him watch Superbad. And he was like, this is the greatest night of my life. Well, so I think that's like a big component of, of these movies for me. And I think you guys will relate to this, but there's something about watching men or women who are somewhere between 10 and 20 years older than you. Yeah. And thinking that's how adults are. And that you, you almost like pattern your, your expectations of adulthood based on what you see in these movies. And you think you don't, you don't. You don't base it on your parents. You don't base it on your parents' friends. You base it on characters who you find entertaining. And then you find, we talked about this when we talked about Last Days of Disco, where like kind of my whole thing is Chris Eigerman characters from 1990s movies. Oh, sure. And like, I don't know if I was intentionally doing that, but I fell in love with those characters the same way I'm kind of fascinated by these guys. These guys are a lot less likable to me. But they're really interesting because they're really close to a lot of people I was observing in my real life. They're just 20% more on time and entertaining. But I think. I like that point of learning about. I like that point of learning about relationships through movies and TV because like Sam and Diane's relationship in Cheers was like my first most important relationship. Good example. Just living through them and hoping they made it or not. And then the movie About Last Night with Rob Lowe and Demi Moore was like, so this is what a relationship is like when you fall in love and you're moving together, but it might be too soon. And that's just, how was I going to know? Yeah. I mean, for me, my version of that would have been Harry Met Sally. I would have been 13 when that movie came out. Um, it was fun watching people talk about watching adults talk about a thing that I hadn't didn't understand, didn't hadn't experienced yet, but knew was out there somewhere for me. Um, I also think that what you're saying, Sean, about if you're going to become an artist and it's so clear with Ed Burns, like what was going on with him. Um, I'm going to call him Edward Burns throughout this conversation. By the way, I'm going to call him Ed. He's going to be Edward Burns. You get all three, by the way, Ed, Eddie and Edward. Also, my father's named Edward and he was an Ed, Eddie and an Edward, depending on who was talking to him. Depending on who's talking. I'm going to be Edward Burns. So I, I understand what you're saying about, um, the things that you watch while you're figuring out what kind of human being to be. Um, and then what kind of artist to be like, you learn a lot about you're formed by, you're the art that you watch. And it's so clear. to me because i had the same thing that happened to to ever burns which is like i watched a bunch of woody allen movies and all i wanted to do watching them was get to new york i wanted to find a therapist you know i wanted to like explore i wanted to like be smart in front of other people yes do you know what i mean they're so and the i don't know you can see that edward burns clearly clearly clearly i don't know anything about this man's life but he must have been if he's anything like the characters that he plays in his movies especially the early ones he must have been lonely you know he must have been if he acted like these guys little sensitive little sensitive smart mildly neurotic um what was he doing at his high school and who what what was his uh what was his high school nomenclature he knew that was the smart lane for him to have because my guess is he was probably a handsome guy in high school who didn't have a lot of lady problems i think his looks have thrown people off the scent with him for many years and you could argue that in the second half of his career it has kind of held him back in some ways from being able to transition into some of the like movie director persona yeah that wesley is describing because most guys who make movies like edward burns do not look like edward burns they look more like guys no body right i think i can just say that he is the most attractive american director we've had in like since robert redford well what's funny is yes he wants to be woody allen but woody allen looked like woody allen yeah you you guys left that one key piece with the ed burns thing which is where i come in because i'm probably exactly the same age as ed burns in this movie he's like hardcore gen x yeah and that the themes in his movies were kind of the themes that are around there which is like gen x first generation whose parents like regularly got divorced fear of commitment um drifting what we've talked about this in other movies we've done like singles and reality bites and what do i do now where am i going like this character he's driving a cab i love this observation i love this um he had his heart broken by some girl now he's rashly marrying this girl he meets who he's done for 24 hours his brother's in a fucked up love triangle his dad's it's all about like dysfunctional relationships which is kind of like the lifeblood of gen x this is what we had think about the two parental relationships in brothers mcmullin and in this movie in the first movie the brothers mcmullin opens with a conversation between his mother and her son at the father's grave site yeah and then we learn in that movie that the mother's gone back to ireland to be reunited with her long lost love yep and then in this movie the mother and father are still together but we never see the mother she's having an affair cheers yeah yeah and john mahoney's character the father is such a central primal figure in the movie i mean he's arguably the most important character in the movie because of the way that he has kind of shaped and informed the sons who drive all the action in the movie and you're right both of those relationships are broken relationships and that totally informs everything that you're talking about and then in real life ed burns he's dating maxine baines who's in this movie breaks up with her dates heather graham when she's at the top of the roller coaster that's right wow she was probably the number one catch of the of whenever he dated her and then goes right from there to christy turlington and lives happily ever after you forgot about the two years with lauren holly but we'll forget lauren holly another one so he made movies with every person he fell in love with well he was the maxine baines thing was that was before this he didn't yeah he she was yeah she was like he was like he was like his sounding board for the first two movies that was his girlfriend in like 1990 right what i'm i don't know what i don't know if they if i'm not saying that lauren holly and he fell in love on the set whatever happened he's made movies yes with people he's fallen in love with heather graham was sidewalks in new york i'm not sure if they were together at that point but yeah craig when you listen all this your generation doesn't have the same fear of commitment it's kind of different and they have other fears yeah well you have other things we have other things to worry about i guess i would say y'all ain't fucking we got we got like buying a house no houses no babies like we're committed to our phones and each other and each other in some way and anxiety and social media roving gangs of roving a house a baby a marriage like think of all these things that i've gotten that if all these things these fears i've gotten over and you're stuck that's right you're stuck craig got married it's funny i watched reality bites which we've already done in this pod and i watched only the last like 40 minutes of it it was just on i was like you know what i'm staying for the youtube song because this is just a really good yeah and then i really got into it and ethan hawk he sings that violent femme song and it's just fucking intense and it's really good and he disappears and then at the end she's gonna go get in a cab to go find him but he's in the street and he just goes to this monologue he's like my father died um but that's not why i'm telling you this and blah blah blah and then i realized you're gonna make me cry then i realized what all i wanted was to be with you because i love you and they hug and then all of a sudden they're playing like lisa lobe and i was like this shit worked for years that was on turner classic movies like three weeks ago i watched it it's really good i on the one hand it's so 1993 slash four yeah but on the other hand like i i had never can first of all there's a few things that you need to know about me i would never in a million years have chosen ethan hawk i would have chosen ben stiller and made a mistake but that that's kind of the point of that movie is in your 20s you think ethan hawk is the one who should win and then you get older like ben stiller had some good points but ethan hawk wins that movie because he is it's a performance right and it's unfair because he gets the final the final monologue and he looks like ethan hawk so it's not and he's imbalanced and he's perfect 1993-94 looks like he hasn't showered in two weeks doesn't care if he ever has a job because he's too cool yeah yeah it's too cool to care about that but but the kissing in that movie too it's like real kissing and and a lot of you just know the cigarette breath was just coming on both sides well the smoking doesn't they're just fucking inhaling cigarettes in that movie the next one you they're not smoking like the the parsley cinnamon cigarettes these are fucking marlboro reds well this movie she's the one is also a smoking so much smoking so much smoking but the point is like to bring it back to she's the one these this was like a really intense time we didn't have we didn't have the internet yet nobody kind of knew it was going to happen and we would just spend a lot of time reflecting talking getting fixated on things and um and this movie kind of fits into that where he gets married in 24 hours his brother's like what the you fucking married her like i don't know it seems conceived but now it'd be like did you hear craig got married to some girl he met in a cab he'd be like what yeah this would be like a reddit thread yeah i think this is also it's a symptom of a time where i think commitment was expected to happen much earlier in people's lives like that is one thing that has materially changed i don't think people who are younger now are afraid of getting married i think they just know to take their time a little bit yeah and you know i got married in my 20s but i was pretty unusual amongst my friends and this is a movie where i don't even how mike mcglone's character is 25 in this movie he's acting like he's 40 years yeah i would have make it half a million a year 45 no you're making half a million a year aren't you yeah and he said i think he says he's 25 and that's his father-in-law right so there's something about that too and like that's kind of the crisis of winona rider's character in reality bites is like she has to choose between these two it's like she doesn't have to she just graduated like what is she choosing i don't know right i mean but that is it's such an interesting set of models right i mean because the reality bites the gen x resistance is all about not being a boomer right like obeying it's a it's zagging yes i mean i won't do what daddy tells me to do i'm just not gonna do well that's our beloved kicking and screaming it's another one like that these guys just trying to delay being adults yep we're just gonna stay in college even though we don't go to college anymore and still go to the well what's interesting to me about she's the one is there's a there is a value system at work that is not it is a gen x movie on the one hand but it's also to me it feels transitional to like this moment right like every every character in this movie every man in this movie is basically right now they either stormed the capital their fox news is on all day yeah and yeah the dad's definitely watching fox news yeah you know mike mcglone is like operating a crypto a crypto camp yeah mike mcglone mike mcglone might be going to jail at some point there's definitely some like he might actually have a he might have been pardoned do you know what i mean or he might have already received his part he's in wolf of wall street the real life version of it as it's happening right in 10 years yeah i i i i see the movie like so close to the bone because the attitudes of the guys in the movie are so close to the bone are just so similar so similar i mean it's eerily accurate to how people from long island act and like the sort of like um the performed masculinity that is barely hiding in security. Like, the Mike McGlone character, which is like a big farcical kind of broad comic character, but is also like eerie documentary about three generations of Irish-American men on Long Island. It is so accurate. Ed Byrne's character is the one where I'm like, who is this guy? That's the one that is a little bit. This is the thing that I find fascinating. Yeah. Because that guy is like, he's kind of bohemian. He's kind of Gen X and like laid back. He should be living in Silver Lake. Yeah. Trying to like write a book. But he doesn't have any talents or skills. Yeah, true. He doesn't want anything. Or at least none that he knows. Exactly. He doesn't want anything and he doesn't. He knows what he doesn't want, which is, to your point, Bill, super Gen X, right? I know what I'm rejecting, but I don't know what I'm embracing. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. And I have always found Edward Byrne's really fascinating because I think that whatever the void is in this character is also true for the movies themselves. And to me. Like Great Hang, but you're kind of wondering what you spent the last two hours doing? Well, I mean, I think he might be a mirrorer in some way. I don't know. Like, he doesn't. His ambitions are not grand. He doesn't want. To be the greatest or the best. He just wants to work, right? To me, this is a wild way to think about a film career, but this is a guy who is essentially like, I build houses for a living. I love building houses. You know, somebody will live in this little house that I built. Maybe I'll build a big house. But like, I don't know how to do anything else. So this is what I do. And I'm going to do the same thing. What has he made? I count it. It's like 15. 15 movies, yeah. 15 movies. 15 movies? Yeah. Still going. He's got a movie this year. It's some. It's the same movie every time. I like The Family McMoan. I enjoyed it. His movies are perfectly pleasant. I watched it to talk to you guys. And. It's interesting watching him evolve, but only. Only. It's not evolution. It's age, right? He's becoming more seasoned, but he hasn't changed, right? Yeah. This is a very. He's never. I can't think of a director who's had this similar. Henry Jaglum is a director that comes to mind. We're like, Henry Jaglum has a thing, right? He is making movies about Beverly Hills people, more or less, right? Yeah. Like, the lives of a particular class of Angelitos. The movies are kind of all the same movie. Mm-hmm. He gets fixated on actresses and they become the star of the movie and then you never see them again. There's not a lot of variation in tone. Sometimes the movies are funny, but most of the time they're embarrassing. But every once in a while, the clock will. The clock is right twice a day. And Edward Burns, to me, has become one of those people where, like, you can go in there and there'll be something there. And clearly the people who love working with him love working with him. Mm-hmm. Because he seems like a great person. Yeah. Well, isn't the best way to capture that the fact that. A lot of the people who are in those movies, these are, like, the best versions of them. Mm. He has a way of getting really good performances. Like, we'll talk about Aniston and Diaz in this, but. I mean, we can talk about Diaz now. We'll do it later, but I just think Diaz. Let's save it for later. We'll save it for later, but I think she's incredible. What she's doing in this movie is, like, almost like a what-if for her career. If nobody's ever asked her to do what she's doing. I feel like it's. One other movie has. Any Given Sunday. Oh. Like, the harshest. The harshness. Yeah. Like, the sharpness that she can bring. This is kind of. Yeah. Because the thing with her is she can be there, something about Mary. She can be the ditz in My Best Friend's Wedding. Or she can be this character. This is by far the most interesting version of her. Where she's like, I'm a fucking ice queen. I'm a killer. Yeah. I mean, the counselor. You're in trouble with me. Y'all know how I. Y'all know, I think. That's a version of that, too. That is an all-time performance. It goes with the European bombshells. That is the best. That is the best version of that that an American person has done. Cameron Diaz and the counselor. Y'all haven't seen it? Well, then, McGlone. I had so much stock. Yeah, you can't believe how much stock I had. I looked at his IMDb, and it's like, this was really the peak, and I don't really understand what happened. I don't know why he wasn't on CSI for, like, 11 years. Yeah, do you know, Sean? I don't. I mean, I have some. Do you know who that is, Craig? Some takes about him in the categories. The brother. Yeah, Francis. Would you? Yeah, Francis. Just watching this movie, would you have expected him to, at least, have been on Law & Order for, like, nine years? We'll save my thoughts. Okay. Can't wait. I mean, obviously, he just gets to do a tremendous amount of shit-talking in the movie, and so, as a teenager, when I saw the movie, I was like, there's something very attractive here. It's very Randall and Clerks, where it's like, some guy just gets to just have all the funny lines, even though he's kind of the buffoon of the movie. He still gets so many heaters, and you can feel Ed Burns' id going right into McGlone, which is really fun and I really just wish they made more movies together. Yeah, me too. Because he writes really well for him. The same way that I always thought Kevin Smith wrote so well for Jason Lee, and Jason Lee is never better. Oh, that's a good one. Only than in Kevin Smith. In every Kevin Smith movie, he's so great. Well, it's like Chris Eichmann. Same thing. Chris Eichmann in all the, in that trilogy of Whit Stillman movies is so, so good. But McGlone, I mean, he obviously is best known now for his work in commercials. That that, it's the Geico character, right? And documentary narration. Oh, my God! He's in the movie! He's in the Geico ads! That's what he's been doing for the past 10 years. And he's done a lot of documentary narration stuff. He's got a great voice. He's one more narrator in the Geico commercials. Oh, my God! And so, I'm sure he's got a very comfortable, cool life. And he was an interesting representative of, like, a certain kind of, like, post-Gordon Gekko, stockbrokery, aspirational. It's like pre-Wolf of Wall Street, post-Michael Douglas. Guy, black, dark suit, slick back hair. There's a very, very Irish-American thing, too, in this movie where, like, all these guys have great hair. They're all way too pale. You know, they're all, like, they think they're fucking the man. But, you know, deep down, they're really guilt-riddled. Little dick energy. This whole movie is just little dick energy. The whole thing is, like, Irish curse means Irish goodbye. Like, that is the, that is the, like, the subtitle or the alternate title for the movie. Yeah, Cameron Diaz does the, the orgasm thing. She faked it enough to fake with Papa. And then she holds up the three. And, yeah. Wait, can I just say one quick Mike McGlone reading? It's, there's a moment where he comes over. I guess I'll just set this up. Edward, Mickey meets Heather. She gets into his cab. They, Oh, and they show up at the house. They used to be married. He comes over to the house to get this television set that he left. If they're, you know, old school, you know, not old, old school, but like the last of those big, big fat ones. Square tube TV. Cathode ray, cathode tube TVs. Um, comes over to get it. She's trying to get with him. He's like, I'm not, what are we doing? Shame on you. I'm taking this, this, not really that heavy TV and I'm walking out of here. But he does, you do see him entertaining. He thinks about it. He does. Three seconds. But he, you know, what's funny is he is a good actor. But there's something, there's like one more gear in the, in the watching a character try to work out whether or not to do something that's not happening here that registers to me as a viewer of these people as, as indifference. Right? He should be considered during this, but I just don't think he is in the wrong world. He is trying to find some other place to be. I mean, Bill, maybe it is, maybe he should be here. He should be in California. But, but I don't know. Nothing interests him here. But what, how does this tie into McGlone? Anyway, so he takes the TV. The TV's living in his place. McGlone comes over one day because he knows from Heather that the TV's gone. And he's worried this guy, and his brother can't take it. His girlfriend. You're right. Did you, let me, let me do some, some like, not that low-key sleuthing to find out whether or not my brother fucked my mistress, but it's really his ex. Yeah. And he's like, why would you even go back there for that TV? That's, that's pathetic. And he's like, it's like you're, oh my God, I can't even read my own handwriting. It's like, basically you can't afford a new TV. And then he kind of trails off and it's kind of like, the way he trails off, it's like, you can't afford a new TV and there's like a, there's like a, you know, that he doesn't even say or like a haunt. Like, there's so much hilarious regular guy judgment in that not big a deal detail. Yeah. And the way that he does it is just, it's just chef's kiss and he's kind of dumbfounded. He's kind of embarrassed for his brother, but he also doesn't really know why he's fixing up on this TV except. He just wants to know if his brother fucked his mistress. Yeah, he circles back to it later in the movie when they're having an argument. And he's like, Mr. Loser Cab Driver Can't Afford a New TV. It's this status symbol to him. And he's like, the only thing that really matters to me is money and being the cock of the walk. My brother, who doesn't really have the same ambitions that I do, even though he's older than me, he's a loser. I'm better than him. It's important for me to be better than him. It is like you always do the boss and you think you're better than me. Long Island has that. We have a little bit. We don't live in the city. You know, we're very provincial. It's very blue collar. Like, there's this constant desire to go up a level and to be better than people. And McGlone is just very good at representing that energy. It's a shame that David Chase never tapped into him for a Sopranos season. Oh, yeah. There's just so much good money that's left on the table for him. There's got to be a story there. There's got to be a story. Sometimes it doesn't happen. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. You mean he went to a bunch of auditions and the part went to, like, Vincent D'Onofrio? There's a Charlie Sheen versus him. Like, I feel like it's a little closer than maybe if you really think about it. Oh, interesting. He's got a few years on him. He just could have been in Two and a Half Men for 10 years. Wow. Just being… I just don't understand why he wasn't on… He's such a natural TV actor. He is. Could you see him for 10 straight Thursdays? Well, it's funny that… I mean, I got fixated on what that TV was really doing, you know, as a metaphor. Erection proxy? Well, no. Just like… Just like… Just like… Just like… Just like the movie's ambitions in some way. Do you know what I mean? Like, the confusion of, like, how far down or in to go. Yeah. And it just really… This movie, without the application of some critical and, like, emotional pressure from us, it kind of does kind of live on the surface. But it's… I was saying as we were walking into Bill, like, it's a great rewatchables for me, and I watched it 50 times on cable television growing up because it is on the surface. It's a movie. It's a movie of lines, of dialogue that you remember. It's a series of, like, episodic sequences. The stakes are so low in this movie. I mean, what are really the stakes? There's a… There's a… She might go to Paris and not bring him. Oh, man. And he's got to figure out if he's getting divorced or not, his brother. Bunch of beautiful 20-somethings who, like, stuff's probably going to work out for no matter what. Like, it's a very low-octane movie, but it's very enjoyable. I did want to just say one thing about what you were describing about Burns as an actor. And maybe we can kind of think of some examples like that. When do you want me to do my… I'm going to do my Ed Burns impression after you describe… I used to do one, too! So, Robert Redford is not a great actor, but he is a great screen presence. And he figured out one thing. And I've thought about this a lot because, like, we did a Hall of Fame last year. I've watched every movie he's ever made. He understood that he was at his best when he was in pursuit of moral superiority. That he could kind of represent something decent about the world. And all of his best movies are him operating in that mold. Edward Burns didn't really figure out what… What that thing is that he should represent to distract from his beauty. So, when you're watching him, you're like, This guy doesn't have any problems. He's married to Christy Turlington. Like, what emotional crisis could really be happening that could be bringing him down to this place? And I feel this a little bit when I'm watching this movie. When this movie is… When I'm watching this movie, I'm like, Let's get away from Ed Burns and Maxine Bonds. We've got to go back to Mike McGlone and Jennifer Aniston. That's where the real heat, the weirdness is. When John Mahoney's spinning wisdom about what it's like to be a man in America, I want to go back to that part. There's no… And I like Ed Burns on screen, but that character is kind of nothing. He's bringing just presence, but not psychology to the character. Yes, yes, yes. It's a weird thing because he invented the world. It's his movie. Yeah, I can see why you'd think that. You know, I'm just trying to be in a movie. Just trying to do my thing. What's wrong with that? It's so funny because that is… Especially in this movie, more than the other ones. Because I've seen like half of the Edward Burns collection. Maybe a little bit more than half. And this… This is like… You can feel him trying to channel Woody Allen here. Like Woody Allen, the actor. Right? There are… Like, would this guy… Is he older? Is Mickey older than Francis? So he's 27? Yeah. It's probably like 26 and 25. Is this 27-year-old man from his part of Long Island really talking about degenerates? Like, there's something about the stuttering, the repetition, the stuttering that isn't really the way you're searching for a thought. It's just you're doing a bit. And I really love the imitation here because it's the last person you would think that would be interested in impersonating Woody Allen, which is kind of what's fascinating about Edward Burns as an actor to me. This is going to sound like a broad stroke, but here's the thing. With Woody Allen, it's neurosis. With Edward Burns, it's angst. And that is the difference between Jewish-American, Irish-American, at least where I come from. The Irish-Americans are like a little angry about something. And in Edward Burns' performance, when he really comes to life, he's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Right. Like, he's got a little bit of… There's a little bit of heat underneath. Whereas Woody Allen is never aggressive in that way in his performances because it's not a natural component to his character that he created on screen. Yeah, he's already up. Exactly. Edward Burns is like, even kill, even kill, even kill. And when he snaps, you really feel it because he's not supposed to snap. But I think everywhere else… This movie is… He literally knocks somebody out in this movie. I mean, he's physical in a way that Woody Allen would never be. It is his brother. It is his brother. And it's like such a stage punch. But I just, you know… Get up, Dorothy. To your point, I feel like the thing… There are a few things underneath this movie that, you know, we can talk about. But the movie is kind of… It doesn't know how to be anything other than what it is. And so there are these subtexts that the movie wants to… Thinks it's satisfied by making them textual. Like, France is the best… I mean, well, we can talk about this later when we get to the categories. But the, is France's gay storyline is very compelling because he should just be gay. He should just… He should just be gay. I mean, he wears cologne. Right. I mean, the signifiers of gayness are absurd. Except, I mean, Sean, you can speak to the cultural… This is also true, though. There were cultural assumptions about, like, what makes a… What makes a man a fag, right? Yeah. Like, and that was a huge aspect of the way I grew up. I mean, as a person who knew he was gay… Not wanting to have sex with Jennifer Aniston in 95 would certainly have been maybe a red flag. Except we know he's fucking Cameron Diaz. I don't know why you can't do both. But again, this is the Catholic… This, to me, is like where the Woody Allen… I think Burns is… You don't want to cheat on your wife with your girlfriend? Well, the… I mean, it's interesting. Like, Madonna whore never gets explored in Irish-American work. But as a Catholic, that's a province of the Catholic condition, whether you're in Italy or here. But it is essentially what's happening here, right? It's also like a mimic of what's in Brothers McMullen, where the older brother in that movie is cheating on Connie Britton. And you're like, you have Connie Britton at home. Like, what are you doing? Who's the mistress in that movie? I forget the name. of the actress. It's Ed Byrne's flaw because he's just surrounded by beautiful women at all times. So this is just normal to him. But that kind of makes it interesting to me, right? Like, this is why I wish that Frances had just been gay. Because, but I also, I also do believe that there is a kind of curse that we've talked about this on this, like, in these conversations about these movies. There is a heterosexual curse, right? Like, we are being governed right now by a heterosexual curse. These are all men who, like, given their druthers, would all be having sex with each other. But they are cursed to be, they're cursed to be attracted to women. And you've, you've, you've pierced the veil in an interesting way. Yeah, but I just think. I'm not signing off on this take, but I admire it. I think that this movie would have really benefited by taking the risk of just having somebody be gay. Well, I mean, this. Or bisexual. Or some, some thing that makes them more interesting than, than a regular human person. The only hint at bisexuality is Leslie Mann's character. Right. That's right. That's a missed opportunity, too. And that's also, to me, that idea is actually broached in Chasing Amy in an interesting way. Oh, my God. These are two guys who are in love with each other. It's more than broached. Right. It is, that's the movie. Right. So, and the kind of duality between the genders and their feelings towards each other. And, and the way that those things collide or don't collide, I think is explored more interestingly in that movie. To me, this movie is much more male fantasy. Like, I think the whole movie all around is male fantasy. And Burns gives a lot of the anxiety to the other character and he doesn't take it on. But in this movie, look at the women that he casts in this movie. I mean, Jennifer Aniston, Cameron Diaz, Maxine Bonds, and Leslie Mann. And, and Amanda Peet. And Amanda Peet? All of whom, I mean, have, they all are so, beautiful in this movie. And there's so appealing in each slightly different registers for a certain kind of guy. They're all hot, too. They're all a different kind of hot. I have some material on this. Okay. I'll bet you do. We just drove straight into your wheelhouse. This is the best-looking collection of women ever in a movie. I wrote down, this is the 2012 OKC Thunder rom-coms. We're wondering why it had to be broken up. Why'd you have to trade James Harden? I also wrote down, I was around the age of everyone in the movie and needed oxygen at the halfway point. I didn't even know who to be in love with the most. You have Aniston. She's after season two of Friends. Everyone in their 20s is in love with her from the first two seasons of Friends, but then Cameron Diaz, who'd already been in The Mask and a couple other things, in love with her, too. Then they bring Amanda Peet and Leslie Mann out of nowhere and Maxine Baines, who we'd already seen from Brothers McMullen. It's just like, this is an embarrassment of riches. Would we have known Amanda Peet and Leslie Mann from anything else? This was the first time we would have seen them. This was pretty early for both of them. I didn't remember when I saw this originally. We've got to keep going on this, but we've got to take one break. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. 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And everybody's getting her hair. Every guy's in love with her. We have no backstory with her other, with that whole cast. The only person we knew was Courtney Cox. And uh, I wrote this down too. Single-handedly the reason I saw this movie in the theater. Wow. Yeah. True star power. Yeah. I probably would've gone anyway because I didn't have a lot going on in 1996. Did Brothers McMullen get into your atmosphere? I saw it. But I didn't have a lot going on in 1995 either. Um, but 96, it was like, oh my God. Like, especially if you saw the ad, it was like, everybody looks great in this movie. Ed Burns, I'm going. Great job. But, uh, Burns said I knew who she was, hadn't seen the show. Um, I rented uh, I didn't rent, I bought Independent Ed, the book that he wrote about all of the movies he made. And then there was some good interviews. Um, he could not figure out how to cast this role or the Cameron Diaz role. And Aniston came in and killed that role. We could talk about the mechanics of having a sexually frustrated, um, wife who looked like Aniston later. And then Cameron Diaz. So, I mentioned the smoking hot, callous, ice queen bitch, which she tapped into. Rita Hayworth and Gilda? Okay. That's kind of what they're going for, right? Like those 1940s, I should stay away from this person, but I can't. Um, Burns said everyone else, we auditioned, did a real breathy Marilyn Monroe, but she got it. She knew the character would be a little more vulnerable. I don't know who's better in this movie, so I'm going to ask you guys. Between Aniston and Diaz? Yeah. In terms of performance? Yeah. Oh, well, Cameron Diaz. Yeah, Diaz by a mile, I think. I mean, Jennifer Aniston is sort of making the most of a not-quite-stock part, but because. But that's the case, though, because she's got nothing to work with and I think it's a really good character. It is. Like, I like her relationship with her family, like. Those scenes are nice. I agree. I would. But Diaz is. It's meaningful. It's not nothing to me that he goes through a lot of rigmarole to go get that television set and haul it back to his apartment from Cameron Diaz's place. There's so many, like, there are things that are familiar to me from television relationships Yeah. that, like, here, the thing that makes it a movie is you've got these relationships like, intercut with each other. I'll also say, I think the best parts of the performance that Burns is giving is opposite Diaz. The scene that Wesley talked about when he goes up to the room and then near the end of the film, which is one of my favorite scenes in the movie, when the two of them are back together and they have an almost wordless scene. Right. It's the last, like, 40 seconds they're not talking and she physically, like, kind of moves closer to him. In that scene, I was like, ooh, this is, this is like who Edward Burns could have been as a director. Like, this is so good. The camera is very gently moving. They're getting closer and closer and then the camera's getting closer and closer to them. And then she reaches for something, right? She reaches, you think she's reaching to him and she's getting him his coat. I love that scene. Burns is like, it looks like it's all happening. Like, in that sequence, you're like, oh, man, he's not, maybe he's not Woody Allen, but he's something different. I don't think he really ever gets back to that moment in his filmmaking career. But part of it is because she has such gravity as a screen presence. And she's bringing out something good in everybody in this movie. She's just really, a really good counterpoint to honestly so many of the good male stars of the 90s and 2000s. Oh, yeah. No, I mean, when used properly, when properly cast, even when miscast, right? Like, you think about Gangs of New York. Like, the time she's having makes that DiCaprio performance a lot more interesting to me than if they had, like, cast the part right in some ways. We talked about this when we did There's Something About Mary. I think she's become, like, legitimately underrated as an actress. Oh, yeah. I've been saying this the whole time. She might be the most underrated one of, because remember, we always were fascinated by Gwyneth Paltrow. Yeah. And how we thought she was, this was a big when Wesley and I got to know each other and became friends. So it was, like, one of our passion points that we shared. Like, she fucking had it. She had it cooking for years. And, you know, kind of let control of the steering wheel. And Diaz, like, you look back at her career now, it's all kinds of movies and really, really fun characters. And she took some chances. I never say this. And then she made movies like The Holiday and, you know, Something About Mary. Like, massive hits. I believe when Night and Day came out, somebody, when I was at the Globe, wanted to know if I wanted to write about Tom Cruise something. And I was like, no. I want to write about Cameron Diaz. Yeah. Because Cameron Diaz is a way more interesting person for Tom Cruise to be hanging out with. Like, it just makes all the sense in the world. And I, for as professional as Tom Cruise is, I would love to know so hard what it was like for him to work with a person who seems to just be making it up. Yeah. Like, takes direction well, but just doesn't. I'm a huge Vanilla Sky defender, and I feel like she really has him on his back heels in that movie. And the scenes between the two of them, especially she's starting to lose it. That's another one. In that movie. Another, I forgot about that one. She's so good in that movie. I just bought that on 4K to get ready for our Vanilla Sky rewatchables. I just think that's such an interesting movie. And honestly, like, picture another actress in her kind of age range in that part of Vanilla Sky, and it doesn't work nearly as well. Because her beauty and her intensity is what makes that stuff so good. And that movie was like a reunion of that, and it's supposed to be like a meet-cute-adventure movie that doesn't totally work. It doesn't work. But she's working it. Yeah. But this is what's interesting about her when you compare her to Meg Ryan, Julia Roberts, whoever, Sandra Bullock, where she could easily just be the rom-com lead who you're like, I love that person. I would want to spend my life with her. But she could also be the fucking crazy. She could have been the girl in Obsession, right? She has that. Yes. Oh my God, don't do that to her. She has. Don't do that to us, Bill. Don't try to do that. She has this version in this movie. She could be, like, the goofy Charlie's Angels lady. But the thing about Cameron Diaz, it is very important to say, in the same way that you, like, very brilliantly nailed the thing that burns, that separates Burns from a person like Redford and then Allen. Yeah. The thing about Cameron Diaz that could never allow her to be Meg Ryan, Julia Roberts, or Sandra Bullock is, Cameron Diaz is down to fuck. Yes, pure sex appeal. Cameron Diaz understands what sex is. She likes using it. The D stands for Diaz and DTF. I mean. I just think, like. She played a lot of characters who were like that. And it's not. I mean, but even. Initially, it didn't feel great because it felt like the movie's. didn't care that there was a person attached to the body. Right. You know, I think the thing that made her charming in something about Mary was she somehow managed to transcend the objectification of the part. And the Farrelly's wrote something for her to surmount, right? But even in something like Bad Teacher. Another good one. That's a great movie star movie. And her stardom in that film and, like, Charlie's Angels, you know, a dozen other movies are completely predicated upon her prowess as an actor who understands how to play being sexy. You know who else has that? Kidman. Yes. Where, like, you could have put Cameron Diaz in Eyes Wide Shut. And I don't know if it doesn't work. I don't know if it works with crew. She's not as refined as Kidman, which I think is part of that. We've never seen her try to do something like that. You don't even have to go that far. So you disagree with me. Cameron Diaz doesn't have the one thing, the thing that makes Diaz more interesting in some way than Bullock, Ryan, and Roberts, all of whom I have either come to love or just loved from birth. Or Reese Witherspoon's another one. Or Reese Witherspoon. Like, she's a cut different from them because of the sex. What keeps her from being Kidman is she's not willing to go completely insane. Right? She doesn't have the crazy fear. Or get completely naked. Well, maybe. I don't know if she. What's, like, the craziest sex thing she's ever had? I think that. Well, I mean, if you want to be explicit, it's. You get the counselor when she fucks the car. Right. I mean. That's one of the craziest. But it's not. She had to get there, though. It's not basic instinct. Craig wasn't expecting that answer. The counselor, when she fucked the car, Craig's like. I mean, she literally. I mean, literally. She literally. Octopus tentacles the car. I mean. Yeah, it is. What does that mean? I'm not going to explain to you. You just got to see it, Craig. Go watch the film. You got to see it. It is one of the great performances. Is that an accurate description of what she does? Oh, a thousand percent. A little beautiful. But I think that it's one of those. She had to get there. Yeah. I don't think that she had that performance in her when she was doing Charlie's Angels. She didn't understand. To your point, though, about. I don't know that she didn't understand about. Her career and how we think about her career, which is really interesting. Interesting. And this is kind of like. I think this is really the meeting point of our interest in movies, exactly what we're doing right here. Yeah. She spent 10 years making Charlie's Angels movies and sex farces. That was where she kind of threw. And The Counselor isn't a sex farce, but it is, too. But it is. It's a sex tape and Bad Teacher and those movies. And then she retired. And she stopped making movies. And she took basically seven or eight years completely off her movies. Now, she's come back to do a couple Netflix movies since then. But going away and not really pursuing. Pursuing this work in her early 50s means that we don't think about her in the same way. And then she kind of gets diminished. But her body of work. I totally agree with you. Super interesting. Pretty varied. Took a lot of chances. Better than Julia Roberts, I think. If you're going totality of it. This is like one of those when I go on Basketball Reference and I'm like, wow, Chris Paul made 13 All-NBA teams. I thought it was eight. Yeah, but interestingly, I like where you're. I like this. I like this comparison, but Julia Roberts is still going to win for me. Well, because her pretty woman just beats everything. But also. Also, they went head-to-head in My Best Friend's Wedding. But Karen Diaz doesn't have a Brockovich. She doesn't have a prestige star part Oscar winner. Or Charlie Wilson's War. Well, she doesn't have that either. But Julia. You guys. Julia Roberts is. Coming out on 4K. I saw that. I didn't order it. I showed some restraint. A non-order. A non-order. Oh, my God. Well, let me. Just like Julia Roberts doesn't have. Julia Roberts, the thing that makes her great is that she had a persona to. She had a much more elastic and well-established persona both to exploit and then subvert. Right? She was. She very brilliantly. She could just sleep with the enemy and you got it. It's like, oh, Julia's in danger in this one. Is she like just a straight romantic? Comedy person? No, she's Mary Riley. No, she never was. She was. Right. Well, I mean. She's Hook. She was Mary Riley. Yeah. And, you know, she was Tinkerbell in Hook. But, I mean. But that was sort of like the. That was a kind of misuse of the thing that made her great at the peak of her greatness. Like Cameron is in Gangster New York. It's just bombshell versus America's Sweetheart. They're two different identities that film actresses get slotted into and how you subvert them both. It's more challenging for the bombshell to subvert because your appeal is predicated on your looks, not on your essence. And so, I think Cameron Diaz actually has a harder job even though Julia Roberts is a greater and more important star in the history of movies. Here's a good way to frame it. Which one would your wife be less likely to say, yeah, you can give her a ride home? I don't think my wife would let me drive either of these women home. Cameron Diaz would be the longer pause. Meanwhile, Maxine Baines. Maxine Baines It's tough. Is it Bonds or Baines? I always thought it was Bonds, but I don't know. Bonds, Catherine. Maxine Baines. I don't know. Harold Baines? Maxine Baines? She created the rare character that I can't describe at all. Oh, this is a great. Tells you all you need to know. I love this. I love this. Hey, describe that Maxine Baines character in one sentence. What do you mean? She's going to study at the Sorbonne. Study what? I don't know. Is she flady? Is she sarcastic? Is she hard? Like, I just don't know what this character is. And it's probably the biggest flaw of the movie. She gets. I mean, she isn't. Well, we're talking about this as a male fantasy, right? I guess I. It's what's unclear to me is what the fantasy is, right? Because the real fantasy is. I'll tell you what it is. My brother is my best friend, right? Because there's so many scenes where, like, they have this. They have the fight in his apartment. Mick and Francis. They have the fight in his apartment where, you know, Francis breaks down and says, you know, I feel terrible. You know, I feel like everything is closing in on me. This divorce is really wrecking me. And Mickey's like, you know what your problem is? You're a terrible person. You're cheating on your wife. Yeah. That's what you should feel bad about. You're living a lie. The next scene, they're in the. They're, like, walking. What is it? Brooklyn Bridge? Or, like, the Brooklyn Promenade? Yeah. The Brooklyn Heights Promenade? Like, they're together again. And they're having a. They're bonding some more. I mean, so you can say what the fantasy is. I just think that one of the things. So you're saying it's a relationship move between the brothers and Maxine bonds. A thousand percent. I just don't. Does that matter? I just don't know that it matters what any of these women are. How do you think he described her to Dad? Like, what's she like? She's earnest. I mean, it's really just. Good hang. The same is true for her performance in Brothers McFallon. She's just not a good actress. And I think it's okay to say that. She has no real depth as an actress. And so she cannot provide character to what's written on the page, which is the opposite of so many of the other actresses that are in this movie. And the problem is, there's every. The four other actresses in this movie, even the two that don't have a lot to do. Oh, four. Yeah, four. are all lights out. Like, Wesley Mann's like, oh, this person's gonna be a star. Amanda Peet, you're like, oh, this person has it. So Maxine Bonds was in Brothers McFallon because she was dating Ed Burns at the time. She was the first person who read everything that he wrote. And he said during the making of that movie, the reason I cast her in that part as the girl who his character falls in love with is because I knew she would show up to work every time we were shooting. I didn't have to worry about that. She was reliable? Yeah, which is like kind of a tough thing to hear a lot, but also like. That's what Craig said about Heifetz. He always shows up. I knew he'd host every part we did. You're always there, Danny H. And so, you know, you can look at her other work. She didn't do a lot of other notable work. She's just not a very gifted performer. And she's getting blown off the screen by a bunch of people who are red hot in their careers. I have a recasting couch that I'll just do now for this. I think if Maxine Bonds and Leslie Mann just switch roles and Leslie Mann is in the cab, it's a better movie. Well, Leslie Mann is great. Because then she's just doing weird Leslie Mann the whole movie and quirky. and you're just like, "Oh, I get it." - But she just pops off the screen. - This is a quirky stay away, but I can't stay away. Now it makes a lot more sense. Her line readings in this movie are so good. You're like, this is a trained actor when you're watching her. Burns said that she was in one scene and he deliberately wrote two extra scenes that weren't in the script because he had to get her in. Wait, we have to get quickly to, this is the last piece of my rundown before we get to categories. Gen X Indie Darlings. Because Ed Burns is right smack dab in the middle of this. Sean laid out the story. The older class, the seniors in this high school are Tarantino and Soderbergh and Linklater. And then I think the juniors and sophomores are Kevin Smith, Ed Burns, Rodriguez, Bombeck, and Wes Anderson. I would throw Whit Stillman in there. Was he a senior or a junior? He's a senior. He's a senior. Wes Anderson, did you say Wes Anderson? Yeah, I think he's a junior, but he stayed back a year. Soderbergh? Soderbergh's a senior. Yeah, and he was 19 when he graduated. Yeah, it's Sex, Lies, and Videotape. Sex, Lies, and Videotape is what launches this. It's also on this movie's mind, too. Totally. Right? Totally. But again, it doesn't have a fetish. Right? It doesn't have a deep, dark secret. Ed Burns, that's the secret sauce with him. I just want to be a good hang and talk to some people who are conflicted about relationship stuff. And then 98 minutes later, we're all going to live happily ever after. And ride off on a boat. Yeah. It's a dinner party movie. You know? You know when you go to a good dinner party and you're like, God, we had like three or four really interesting conversations. Yeah. And then you walk away and you're like, well, that was over. And it was just a nice night. I had a glass and a half of Pinot Noir. There's also some dinner parties where like, you're just like, This is boring. Did I say that? Oh, sure. Did I? Did that just happen? Did you see the invite? I mean, yes. I mean. But again, that movie somehow doesn't go far enough. Like, yeah, maybe. I really like that movie. That movie is also kind of a conversation with this movie. So, that high school I mentioned of Gen X Indie Darlings. Really, Generation. I mean, John Singleton and Matty Rich. I mean, there's like another. I just made a list of like, Nicole Hall of Center. There, Noah Baumbach. Did you say Baumbach? He did. Okay. I'm just throwing some more names in. Yeah, it's weird because Singleton, the first movie. Not Indie. No, but the first movie. First movie was Young. Young. Young. Young and whatever. But then he just, he could make whatever movie he wanted after that. Went right to Hollywood. Yeah. Right. I don't. No, Ed Burns, even for this, I think he had a $3 million budget. You know, Baumbach probably didn't have a big budget for the entire 90s. It's worth noting too, I think, that to your point about the Sundance Indie guys. Brothers McFallon and this movie were distributed by Fox Searchlight. And Fox Searchlight, the first movie they ever distributed was Brothers McFallon. Fox Searchlight still exists. It was kind of the rise of the Indie shingle under major studio organization. And so Disney had already bought Miramax. And so every studio basically over time decides we need a smaller branch inside of our building that looks for these kinds of movies and markets them because they can make a lot of money. You know, Paramount Vantage. Vantage, yeah. You know, you've got like all of these various things. Not all of them worked out, but Searchlight is still around. Searchlight is still putting out good movies. I actually, I was going to do this later, but this was an independent ed, which I bought on Apple Books for like $6.99. Which was really interesting about, he makes this movie. Fox Searchlight, they're like, you're our fucking guy. We love you. And they film the movie. His agents get involved. Oh, the agents. So they want to do the next movie. This is what he writes. The agents. My agents decide to negotiate a Woody Allen type deal for me in the studio. A put deal, which basically stipulated that Fox Searchlight would green light any script I wanted to make sight unseen as long as the budget was under $50. $15 million, starting with the next movie you make. Five, zero? Fifteen. Fifteen. Okay, I'm like. So he was like, are we sure we want to do this? Like, they've been really good to me. Why are we playing hardball? Agents says, no, no, you have the leverage now. Let's do it. Says he has a tense phone call with Tom Rothman, who said, what happened? Didn't we do good by you? And a really uncomfortable lunch with the Fox Entertainment chairman, who said, Bill Mechanic, who said, why would you ask for this? I thought you were part of the family. Ugh. And he was like, look, it's my team. So Fox Searchlight gets mad, kind of buries she's the one, and then doesn't bid on the third movie. And he has this whole thing in his book about it. Like, I didn't know any better. I just trusted these stupid agents I had. The lesson, as always, is agents are the fucking worst. Oh, my God. Like, just, you and I just had a conversation about agents before we started having this conversation. Yeah, it's, like, sports agents. Just be careful out there. Yeah. It's a tricky one. And I think if Ed Burns' next couple of movies were better, he might not look back on the this in quite the same way. That's just, that's a little bit of a harsh way of describing it. Well, because the next one's No Looking Back, which did not do well with Lauren Holley. But in the moment, that was such an upsetting thing to Tom Rothman. Mm-hmm. And it was confusing. Yeah, but also, like, executives saying, like, you were a part of the family is also, like, I get that part. Classic movie shit. That's movie shit, yeah. So he said, she's- So what's the right thing to do? It's got to be somewhere in the middle. It's got to be, like, you need to pay me more or give me a little bit more money. A little bit more flexibility, and I'll make my movie with you. Like, that, and the agent should also know that that's what the client wants. Like, there's always a middle ground. But he was in his mid-20s. The move would have been to go out with Tom Rothman, blah, blah, blah. But he said, she's the one, still went on to gross 9.5 million, was Searchlight's biggest hit that year. But the message was clear. I had blown it. Then the studio passed on his next movie, which was called Long Time, Nothing New. Mm-hmm. And so he got it back. He moves to LA. He does Sidewalks in New York, and then gets his mojo back in a real way. Yeah. It's important to say that, like, between, like, among those three movies, he manages to play, like, a meaningful role. And that's what the agents told him. He's in Saving Private Ryan. In Saving Private Ryan. And a couple others, because they're like, you're a lead actor. Like, go this way. But he hasn't sort of. I like him in Saving Private Ryan. Yeah, he's great. I think he's doing an old school 1940s World War II actor. You could think, and I think Spielberg knew that face. He's Robert Ryan. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Our guy, Steve Spielberg. Yes. We all hung out with him in 2026. Good friend of all of us. Can we say that? Our guy? Our guy. Yeah. Our guy, Steven Spielberg. I mean, Taylor Swift's guy. The greatest director of all time. You know who wasn't Ed Burns' guy? Roger Ebert. Two stars. Although this movie disappointed me, it did not dishearten me about Edward Burns as an actor or filmmaker. He knows how to move a scene, and he has a nice feel for the ground-level human touches that make his character real. She's the one who plays an overhaul of the Brothers McMullen with a larger budget, and it's time for him to move on. This was how I felt when I saw it. It felt in the vicinity of Brothers McMullen in a way, kind of not new enough. You're right. It's like a little bit of a remake, in some ways, of the first movie. The biggest difference to me is the characterization of McGlone, because McGlone in McMullen is this really kind of tortured, faithful Catholic young man. In this movie, he's Catholic, and he believes in these things because of his religion, but he's really kind of a shit-heel of a guy. To me, the broadness of that character, I think, is really effective. I think he really is really entertaining in this movie. I know Craig's going to say something negative against him, and I'm going to get in front of that right now. Don't do it, Craig. I think, actually, it's something that Burns missed out on going forward in his movies. His movies get a little bit more sincere and serious. And they're not as funny as the funniest stuff in this movie is. Well, I think he started living a life, too. Right? I mean, I think that he's always trying to find a way to keep the movies, to have some cultural osmosis happening in them. We're taking one more break. I'm going to go to the bathroom because of Malt. Great. Then we're going to come back and do the categories. Wonderful. This episode is brought to you by. Angry Orchard Hard Cider. Halloween's just better with a scary movie and something good to drink. Angry Orchard's limited edition Glow in the Dark Thriller Variety Pack is the perfect companion. It even includes a mystery flavor can featuring the iconic ghost face from Scream. Don't get angry. Get Orchard this Halloween. Find Angry Orchard in a store near you or visit angryorchard.com. Angry Orchard Cider Company LLC. Angry Orchard. AngryOrchard.com. Please drink responsibly. Angry Orchard is a hard cider with other natural flavors. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Built for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast because the asks aren't getting smaller and the timelines, ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place. Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at adobe.com slash firefly. The categories. $3 million, $13 million revenue from this movie, by the way. So this movie was successful. Categories. Quickly, just some scenes, most rewatchable scene when we meet the fighting Fitzpatricks. Where's your sister? All that stuff. And then the brother comes out. That first scene, basically. That movie was. supposed to be called the fighting Fitzpatrick's, right? I remember that the cabri. bride the uh aniston and mcgloin arguing about sex and mick showing up at the new bride that's fun mick picking up cameron diaz and going to get his tv back would be my first like legitimate rewatch the first one i wrote down was heather shows up in mickey's cab yeah this is when the movie goes up a level you're the only english-speaking white guy driving a cab in new york we're like oh so she's like a mean person this is good let's go she's on it you know what heather i gotta imagine it beats sucking dick for a living depends on whose dick it is this is the best character of all time i mean the one great thing about this character is in a different movie she would have to atone for she would either deny that she did it right no she doesn't care or she'd have or the or the plot would force her into atonement is she the hero of this movie is a question you can ask right it's like sharon stone has some basic instinct too these i thought about sharing these characters that are just like i have no blood in my body so keep trying to cut me there's nothing will come out nothing's coming i'm bloodless i would say heather shows a little more vulnerability than the psychotic serial murderer katherine trammell but never never known never convicted but it but if she started if she showed up if she showed up at nicky's at nicky's front door and she certainly could do that if she just wound up in basic instinct yeah basic instinct der i like how you called him nicky um nicky right his name is nicky nick but you called him nicky which was her pet name for him like he went a whole other level basic instinct i i would believe it she'd know what to do heather i think we see a couple of well here's the thing with heather heather loves mickey now she cheated on mickey yeah but she loved she was engaged to mickey i think she likes mickey the most she's she likes mickey the most she's love him maybe maybe not and she's obviously a very transactional person because she married a wealthy guy who treats her nicely and gives her orgasms but sounds like a how old is that guy dude did she say is he 60 i hope he's older than me i don't know can i just say one of my favorite things we haven't even done this he's like 40 years old this isn't the the floyd gondoli but it's in the realm which is anytime mike mcglone describes somebody as an animal he does it like three times in this movie he's an animal and he says that about papa it's great uh another rewatch while mcglone arguing the concept of a down cycle she's great we're just in a down cycle um the aniston pete mcglone three three people scene and pete's just i'm gonna talk about her in a second yeah um his tits are bigger than mine the second mickey heather scene that goes right into our guy frank vincent oh yeah badgering aniston about his sex life we excited to see frank vincent love frank vincent is it ever a time when it's like oh no frank vincent's here is that where it said it's ever been said but can i just say something about frank vincent's sex life i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know what world does frank vincent and anita gillette produced jennifer aniston you know i thought about this too i think she kind of bought it i think she thought about it like how do i make sense with these two great what about amanda pete though you mean you think that amanda pete oh yes i believe she could be the offspring of that couple i that i believe that um frank vincent throwing 106 miles an hour in this movie he's really good it's it's gonna be a fun dn waiters we also have when that when micky and heather together the second time we get the maybe we made a mistake when it's just our hero just like no man don't fall for this this is gonna go so badly um i would have fallen for it the is francis gay montage right into breaking up with aniston it's the cologne part we mentioned earlier that's the number one mick finds out um franny's with heather that's where we get the how do you like that mr loser cab driver who can't afford a tv we get the boxing gloves you are an ugly bitch i pity you you've said that to cr my absolute favorite line in the movie actually my second favorite line in the movie you are an ugly bitch i pity you he's then he gets punched the perfect elocution and then uh the the um the whole scene at the end that we talked about which is my pick you don't love her because she's unlovable um like a hooker no not like a hooker she was a hooker and then mcgullen storms off um she's still in the apartment by the way probably this thing she i mean but there's no evidence that she was but also the performance is so she holds on to so much that there's a world where she might have been why are you rooting for in this movie it's like rooting for the murderer in a true crime documentary or something like oh i hope if he just could stop at the post office he could get out of this but what does she do that's bad it's she does nothing so thorny she does nothing well she's she's intentionally she gives the watch to mike mcglone she's fucking with these guys she's yeah this is now she's like a cat just playing with yeah she's fucking with these guys i but i think that the movie there are times when it feels like the movie really does not like women where it's like it's a little rough on the female characters and it's a very mid-90s thing and then there's other times where you're like he definitely affords heather more agency power and happiness than this kind of character would ever usually get oh a thousand so it's super complicated dead at the end of it by the end usually that woman like that gets punished yeah and she like gets to go marry some rich guy yeah papa um which she wanted right right she made the choice she got what in the world of this movie she wanted but she still has two brothers who are assholes calling her a whore in her own house yeah but look how they wind up yeah yeah my most rewatch was that scene when they're sizing each other up silently for 30 seconds and i just think that scene's awesome love it it's one oh the montage i mean the the is he gay montage yeah which also has the best film make i mean you know it's it's that's the most woody alley it's like it's like movie making 101 but there's just like a two shot two shot two shot matching of a camera panning across the screen and they got to get the lines out in enough time for the camera to get from one side of the screen to the other side of the screen are you it's ugly bitch i pity you is your favorite or something else um i i like the that's that on that unspoken scene between heather and mickey but the other one i love is after franny goes back to try to reunite with heather and she tells him that she's engaged to papa and she gets in the car and he closes the car she closes the car door and he says thanks for the memories you ruined my life yeah yeah that is such a 90s indie movie thing that's in the trailer yeah right like i remember it from the trailer i had that for the ruffalo hannah rubin i parked your job acting you ruined my life he really goes for it no motherfucker what's the most 96 thing about this movie wesley oh man um i gave you a couple options oh the hair the hair for sure i mean also was the haircut trademarked because you'll notice in the jennifer anderson's haircut i should say the it's the she did the rachel haircut for like a year and a half because second half of season one and then all season two you'll notice it's not fully rachel did this movie it's like half of it yeah like there's some clause in the contract that says you can't have a full rachel you can do a half of rachel so the hair is like flatter on one side than it is on the other i don't know it's just a thing you notice because because it was that it was that she looks important that haircut beautiful she just looks she's just 10 out of 10 in this she's also so relaxed i have that as most 1996 thing in this movie she just looks amazing um the tv that ed burns wants back all movie the giant tv i'd say when you see tvs like that are you just like what the fuck were they doing 30 years ago yes but i remember that we used to have tvs like that but it's not even the tv it's like the concept of needing to go back to get the tv because the tv is so valuable yeah it's so 90s like now it's like obviously just be grabbing a plasma yeah tvs are so cheap and you can just like toss them away and like the fact that that was like i gotta go back for the tv three years later how much did it weigh like he's really carrying it like yeah those were heavy like heavy they really were 30 pounds they probably took out though he's holding that tv for like five minutes it's something i think it's a good hollow it out yeah i also had uh somebody driving a cab not an uber stood out to me and then this is my favorite one a femme fatale character named heather we have no heathers anymore well heathers are gone i have a related one okay which is that in this movie there are young people who are named connie francis mickey and renee show me a single one of those people under the age of 20 right now maybe a francis maybe that's a family name yeah but i mean those are and a francis who's known as franny which i don't is that like a salinger-esque it could be but i think that the way that they deal with trying to feminize uh franny and mickey well franny and mickey but definitely man right like they franny francis i mean i wrote down all they call him sister they call him none they call him princess barbara they call him dorothy they he's upset that he wasn't the best man at the wedding what man in the history of weddings is upset because he wasn't the best man at the wedding i mean even if it's true that there's one or two this is a feminization this is another one of my takes which is that in this movie he's looking at woody allen movies but he's like what if i made tony roberts the lead and woody allen the side oh yeah i don't know i don't know Yeah, yeah. And, like, he's playing Tony Roberts and his brother is playing Woody Allen. I love this. Flood gun dolly, butter on my ass, lollipops in my mouth award for something I just enjoy. What do you have, Sean? I have a really important thing. I love to see Irish Americans accurately portrayed on screen as guilt-riddled, sanctimonious weirdos who've been fucked up by their parents. It's just something I enjoy. Something I relate to. That's a good one. I figured you might have that one. I just think that, like, is he gay? It's just, like, I just, even when it's not true, I don't even need, in this movie, I need somebody to be gay. Ed Burns is listening to this right now, like, what the fuck? I was just making a movie about guys trying to get laid in their mid-twenties. What's this guy doing? I do think he knows what he's doing. The Franny thing is very real. I just think that the movie, I would love to know how far they took his sexuality before. Because the only reason he's straight in this movie, and not anything, is because it's almost a plot device. It's the only way to connect Heather to the brothers. Do you think they should have done an ending like Pacino shaving and cruising? Mike McGlone just staring in the mirror? It's so funny that you're saying that, because I just feel like. Wesley's into it. Yeah, I actually think they should have. Because this movie came out at a really great time for indie gay movies, right? This movie didn't need to be gay. I'm just saying. I'm just saying that gayness is on its mind, right? The perception of what kind of man you are if you do or don't do the following 25 things. So what if. But you're missing. The mid-nineties, it was not in the forefront of how anyone was thinking. I remember seeing Chase and Amy in a theater on a date and not seeing the gay thing at all until she brought it up at the end and then being like, What the fuck's going on? Like, literally. Literally being blindsided by it. Like a Shyamalan plot twist. I just couldn't. I was like, what happened in this movie? But now I watch them, like, how did I miss this? There's an hour and a half of clues. But it's in the infrastructure of the work itself, right? You're right, but the problem with. From my experience, the problem with that idea, to literalize it, is he probably would be, if not cast out of his family, they would not have the same dynamic. The sort of the. Because his father is such a small-minded person. He's like. But there's that. Borderline bigoted towards masculinity. Maxine Bonds, who might be from the islands. Oh, my God, from the islands. But that's real shit, man. I mean, that is the most Long Island thing in this movie. That's her best scene in the movie when he's, like, trying to find out where she's from. Yes. What's the exact line? It's like, yeah, she's from the islands. And Edward Burns is like, Rhode Island? Yeah. I mean, that is foreign territory. But he also puts this movie on his back for about 20 minutes. He's like, I got this. Clear out. Don't worry. Oh, yeah. But he does have that moment. That moment, though, when he's talking to Francis, where he's like, it would be fine if you were. Yeah. It'd be fine if you were. And he has a moment where he's like. But I'm not. Yeah. Right. But I'm not. Right. I don't know. I just have. Having had that conversation with people in my life about moi. It just seems like. I don't know. I'm relating to this in a whole other. Also, I mean, can I just say, I've had sex with Francis. Like, I. I've had sex with a Francis. That guy. I've had sex with him. Compelling argument. Multiple times. Got it. Like, it's not like. I'm not, like, grasping at straws. I am also bringing my life experience to this bitch too, boys. I'm just saying. To me, it was an Irish curse. But this is a decent counter-argument. Yeah. I think. I always thought it was an Irish curse. Yes. My deep-down fear is I can't satisfy this lady who is being satisfied by Papa. Yes. I'm not. I'm not even. And my wife's in the bathroom with a vibrator. Also, the fear of the. The fear of sex in this movie is also. Well, that's very Irish Catholic. It's such a conservative. It's a really conservative movie in that sense too. Yeah. All that stuff is very literally in Brothers McMullen. There are conversations about the hang-ups about Irish Catholic guys and what they're supposed to. Like, you know, McGlone in Brothers McMullen is like, you know, it's almost like if I masturbated as much as I wanted to, I would be banished to hell instantaneously. You know, like, that stuff is on Burns' mind big time. My Floyd Gondali is the gimmick of never seeing the mom, which is the device some movies and TV shows use. I like that. It's just really good. We never see her. There's one time we had to. But we never know what she looks like, anything, and it's. I don't know. I appreciate it. I like it too. What's aged the best? We mentioned Diaz and Aniston. McGlone and Burns as ball-busting brothers, butting heads. I wrote, John Mahoney, exclamation point. Really enjoy that guy. Yeah. He's no longer with us. He was great. He's always great. I've always wanted to ask you this. Where was his Say Anything Oscar nomination? Like, that was a crowded year, and I go back every once in a while. 89. Underrated. So that would have been. Actually, you know, Aiello, Denzel won. That was a year that Oregon Freeman should have been nominated, but it was so crazy that he didn't even make the cut. He wasn't driving Miss Daisy. But anyway, Mahoney should have been best actor. Great in Moonstar. How do you feel about Dan Aykroyd and driving Miss Daisy getting an Oscar nomination? He took about three people's Oscar nominations. Abomination. Marlon Brando in a dry white season? Oof. I mean, I'm sorry. Oh, my guy, Martin Landau in Crimes and Misdemeanors. Oh, yes. Just watched it. Did you? A little rewatchable scouting. You know that's one of my movies. Oh, I love it. That was the year when I really started to get. artsy-fartsy with movies. That was one of my first ones where I was like, here's what Woody's trying to do here. I was like 19. Woody's trying. In that scene, I'm just like talking out of my ass. It's a 10-star classic. I watch that movie every two years, every three years I watch it. It is a masterpiece. Because I'm just like, am I. Is it. Is this not. My hottest take. My hottest Woody Allen take is I think that's his best movie. Oh! That's not a hot take at all. It's definitely in the conversation. It's almost. I mean, I'm not going to say inarguable. But it's got orbit. Back. Well, it's so good. Hey, we fucking killed her. What do you want? She's gone. The problem's gone. The single reason it's so good is because it's both strains of Woody. It's very funny starring Woody Allen comedy. All the Alan Alda is hilarious in that movie. And then the murder plot and the psychology is legitimately. It's like all the good parts of interiors mapped onto a suspense movie. Given Hitchcock. Given Hitchcock, yeah. It's so. Comedy is tragedy plus time. When he shows it in the documentary, that is one of the funniest. And Woody Allen's like dying laughing. He's putting Mussolini in it. I love that movie. We got to do that one. It is one of the great American movies. I'm putting the audience on crime. You've never seen it, right? No. That's part of my what's age, the best in the movie, is that at this time, I do think that New York needed an inheritor of Woody Allen's throne, of his legacy. And there's a lot of people who picked up on it, Baumbach, Spike Lee, like a lot of people that kind of like grabbed pieces of it. But he's going for, he's going for that crown. That's my mom's biggest critique of the rewatchables is that we haven't done a Woody Allen month. And I'm like, well, not ruling it out, but there's some complications. I mean, I think these. A little girl that he's hanging out with. I think it's very doable because you're bringing the problems into the room. I think that's why I would have to be. Finding a sponsor might be tough, but we'll work on it. The movies hold up. I watched Love and Death last night for a Diane Keaton episode that we're doing. I mean, the movies hold up. They just hold up. Can I just say, the thing about Edward Burns, though, as a person who loves Woody Allen, he does, is he doesn't have a crimes and misdemeanors in him. No. Because he's, yeah, he's a nice guy. He's not dark. Seems like a good guy. Is Burns too nice? Is Burns too nice? Is he too good a person? He's got a great life. But he's made 15 films, married to Chrissy Turlington, probably has a beautiful family. Has some kids. Does that. I mean, okay, fine. We're just three schmucks talking about movies on a podcast. He's fucking living the life. He went to Ireland to make that golf movie, and I'm like, that seems like a good idea to me. Yeah, I was jealous of that idea. Even in the McMullen sequel, like, Tracee Ellis Ross is randomly in that movie for a few scenes. She's great. Yeah, she's great. And if he could just pull out like these great. things out of just these random people. They pop into his movies. But again, I think in his. There's more there. There is something. You're challenging him. There's maybe a big show for him down the road, like his 35th anniversary college movie. A couple more. The Long Island Dad Having a Rule, No Woman on the Boat. That's my life lesson. Yeah. No Woman on the Boat. Hey, it's just understood. I know a few people. In the 1990s, by the way, people would have said that and nobody would have questioned it. It's like, yeah, Dad said No Woman on the Boat. All right. Brothers Settling Arguments with Boxing Gloves was my other one. Anything else? I have a question. Smoking. That's my next category. The Sean Penn I Brought My Own Pack Award for Excellence in On-Screen Smoking. Mike McGlone. I'll tell you, Pete is ripping some heaters, though. Pete? Yeah. I have as well. Aniston, I gave her and Pete Combine the Edie Falco and Copland Award for character that got three times hotter when they were smoking. Pete's throwing off some vicious energy. I have a Pete section for later. I've got a lot of movie pet peeves. Yeah. And I've never smoked a cigarette. I grew up in a house with smokers. Me too. I know you guys. I just feel CR like. I don't smoke, no. Both my parents smoked until I was like 15. CR's gonna come through the window right now like the lady in Obsession. Yeah. Just come flying through. I've got a camera facing down on us. I call bullshit on 70% of smoking in movies. Oh, yeah. It's like teeth brushing. It's like nobody's ever done this before, but you're gonna pretend for two hours that you know how? Wesley, this is the secret passion of this podcast, the smoking scenes. You know, though, who's a great smoker. I don't know if she smokes in real life. Jennifer Aniston knows how to smoke a cigarette. She does smoke in real life? She does? At least she did for a long time. What? Yeah. Oh, my God. She did for a long time? Well, she. Oh, wow. She's a fucking hot actress who smokes cigarettes? What are you talking about? That's never happened. But I don't believe Amanda Peete is a smoker in this movie. I believe Jennifer Aniston as a smoker in this movie. I believe in everything Amanda Peete did. She was fine, fine, fine. Truly a captivating presence. Jennifer Aniston smoking in this movie is exquisite because it's real. You know why? It's patient and it's just part of what she's doing and she's not thinking about it. No. It's like an extra finger on her hand. Also, she takes real drastic. She's not ragged. She's not puffing. And interestingly, the only person not smoking is Edward Burns. Right. Does he have a cigar at some point? I don't even think he has a cigar in this movie. They should have had Maxine Bond smoke because at least her character would have been doing something. Big Kahuna burger where best use of food and drink. Just a lot of bottled beer in this movie. Yes. There's a. Yeah. Is that a Long Island thing? Is that a cooler Budweiser? Long Island and bottles versus drafts? I don't know what's going on. I think they're definitely communicating like this family drinks Budweiser. Yeah. They drink Budweiser Budweiser original. Like, that is what they drink. Yeah, it's the first thing you see. We drink Michelob Ultra and the Rewindables. There's also a very prominent Coca-Cola can right in the middle of Mickey's apartment that's like, I'm America. That's got to be the character he's doing. There was one weird beer scene though that jumped out to me where at the bar that Hope works at. Great bar, by the way. A man named Mickey Fitzpatrick drinks a canned Guinness. An Irish man named Mickey Fitzpatrick. It's a Guinness out of a can. There's an even worse one. Yeah, you would do tap. I'm like, he's not doing that. When they're down on the shore with Jennifer Aniston's parents, Francis is drinking an Ice House. And I'm like, in what. I mean, I guess that's what that family would have. I did notice that as well. A little weird. What is Ice House? It's a low-tier water. Well, relate it. Can I go back to the smoking for one second? Please. What does it mean to smoke Merritt's? That's the brand here. A lot of cigarette history for me in the 90s. Merritt's. What do Merritt's say about you? Merritt's were like Marlboro Lights, but they lasted a little longer, but same kind of people felt like they were a little better for you than the Marlboro Reds or, you know, the hard camels. Basically, the hierarchy was Camel Light, Marlboro Light, Merritt's. And if you're bumming cigarettes off girls outside bars, Merritt's or Marlboro Lights were probably the two that they were going to have. Okay. Yeah. Because Merritt is very apparent in this movie. Yeah, Merritt's were good ones. I had a Merritt stage. My dad smoked Parliaments. My mom smoked Winstons. I remember thinking that that was a tough spot. I remember thinking a smaller box on the Merritt's that was always good fitting in jeans. Oh, interesting. Not that I know. The Great Shock Order were a most cinematic shot. That shot when they're in the Brothers or it's like dusk and they're walking with the water behind them. It's actually like very the park shot. Yeah, it's a very good shot. Like that one? I like that. I think also Maxine Bond's leaning forward in the cab and you're getting them in a two shot while he's driving. I was like, this is pretty clever. I don't know if I've seen this before. What do we have for the Sean Fennessey word for stealth homage that gives every movie nerd a criteria orgasm? Sorry, I got to find it. A category that was immortalized during Steven Spielberg's appearance. It really was. He was delighted. John Mahoney, Anita Gillette, and Robert Weil all starred together in another New York romance called Moonstruck, which this movie is very clearly a kind of continuation of, at least in terms of what it's interested in most, which is like, I love that. It's like all the Burns movies are like, are about the impossibility and the inevitability of relationships. Like, they're all about that. And Moonstruck is the same thing. It's a perfect, I mean, it's a much better movie than this movie, but I love that he's kind of like tipping his cap towards that. I think his, I think his, his love, I think the other thing that's sort of wonderful and frustrating about him as a filmmaker is he's so clearly ardent about the movies he loves. And is so shaped, been shaped by so many of them. And like, I didn't even think about that until you said it. I didn't make the connection among all those three, all three of those characters, all three of those actors. I don't know. It's very, it's very touching. Yeah. He loves, he loves New York movies. Kid Cudi, Pursuit of Happiness, where Best Needle Drop, the Petty song right after McGlone and Aniston meet Mickey's bride. And I forgot to mention Tom Petty at the top. Yeah. Who's a huge part of this movie. We got so sidetracked in so many different ways that this Tom Petty part where Tom Petty apparently liked Brothers of McMullen, Burns met with him. Hey, you might give me a song. And he had just done, what did he do? Wildflowers? Yeah. This is like, he was going to be a double album then it wasn't. He's like, I got all these songs. He's like, what about this one? It was great. What about this one? Great. My wife who loves this movie, one of the reasons I'm doing this because it's been on a lot in the house. It's hard. Tom Petty's the star of the movie. He just keeps popping in. He's in the middle of this incredible resurgence as a star. He was like a massive star on MTV at this time. And his music fits the movie. Makes sense. It pops in at the right times. There's not enough of it though. I wish there were two more songs. There's some flavoring. You know what I mean? There's some Petty's song flavoring in the score. It's bookended by Walls which is a great song. It's one of his great 90s hits. But then, it doesn't use it as like score really. You know, it just is like interesting. It's like interstitial music that gets you from one sequence to another. It fits into this 90s songs that were in like Kicking and Screaming had the Freddie Johnson song. I know I got a bad reputation. All these like kind of indie, a guy like in a guitar like just angsty or like Petty. I love Freddie Johnson. I really haven't thought about that guy in 30 years. That was his big hit. Yeah. Didn't Petty not write the title song though? Wasn't it the World Party guy who. Yeah, who then has his own version? Carl Wallinger wrote? I think he wrote She's the One. Oh, She's the One. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so Petty is covering Carl Wallinger's song. I wasn't even thinking about that. Oh, wow. And then that led to him doing a whole album. That was my take that enraged CR and Yossi more than anything anyone's ever said. About World Party? World Party. The replacements with Worst PR. Oh! Yossi almost had a stroke. I love that. I'm not. No, stop. Don't encourage him, please. Listen, Bang, one of my favorite albums. I love Goodbye Jumbo. Great album. Great album. How about the Reality Bites song? I mean, great song. When you come back to me, one of the best pop and a movie songs. I'm sorry. Yeah, just bad PR. Way down. Way down now? Way down. Yeah, come on. I mean, I love Carl Wallinger. Was there a better title for this movie? I'm going to say no. I like She's the One. Either Irish Goodbye. Irish Goodbye. Or Irish Curse. I love Irish Goodbye. Irish Goodbye. I think those are both better. The king of titles. Those are both better, I think. But now in four, doesn't Lindsay Lohan have a movie called Irish? Irish Wish. Oh, Irish Wish. Which is not a thing. What is that? It's a movie where she plays a leprechaun. No. For real? No, she goes to Ireland. It's like a Christmas. It's a shame to admit I've seen it. It's like a Christmas rom-com. How was it? Yeah, my wife watched it. Speaking of, I mean, the Queen of Long Island, Lindsay Lohan, of course. You know, this is, it's all connected. Irish Goodbye is a great title. She's from Long Island? Of course, yeah. She's a goddess to those of us who were in our 20s. Oh my God, Mr. Burns. I like Irish Goodbye. Wesley, you have a flex category. What'd you pick? Do you remember? No. Okay. Why don't you just keep moving? What? No, you don't need it. I'm going to keep moving. Okay. The Butch's Girlfriend Award for weak link of the film is Mike McGlone not wanting to have sex with Jennifer Aniston in 1995. He's in a down cycle. You could almost rename, rename The Butch's Girlfriend to I don't want to have sex with Jennifer Aniston in 1995. Yeah. Again. Franny's Down Cycle could also be a title for this movie. Franny's Down Cycle. This is an actual quote. That's a very spanking the monkey like 90s indie American title. He says this about Jennifer Aniston in 1995. It's like you've been driving a 74 Buick your whole life then you find yourself behind the wheel of a brand new Porsche. It's like, what are you talking about? To her face. Why did you, Jennifer Aniston want this part? I don't know. It's kind of weird. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, it's like she, she would not have been like she wasn't. She's got a very complicated relationship to the movies, right? She was, she made a lot of bad ones. She quite miraculously never got market corrected, but she was constantly downstream of Julia Roberts who was still at her peak. And Sandra, Sandra Bullock who was getting the don't once that Julia Roberts. Yeah, but you're leaving out one thing. She was on the biggest show the last 30 years. But she, but, they all I mean it's tough it's really tough to break out from that but she was so clearly being set up as the person who was gonna continue it was Brangelina good or bad for this I think it was it made her a bigger movie star but she just didn't make good movies I mean she just didn't make good movies she made like 20 bad movies the thing that happened was the movies kept changing I think she was unlucky right because if you watch some of the movies matters man taste she didn't pick good parts in the beginning and she didn't really pick good parts at the end sure but that's way that's also later yeah and that's her playing off of her sex appeal perfect I mean the mustard movie is what I always call it that it's just the breakup honestly believe there was I mean Meg Ryan was still at her peak Sandra Bullock Julia Roberts what was she gonna do and then I think Reese Witherspoon market corrected her as an actress probably as a movie Reese doesn't show up to like 90 99 I know but that's when Aniston start like they're trying to push her as a star that's true she's just got too many she can't break through because the walls before her are too formidable like she it just makes sense that it didn't happen the best movie she's ever been in his office space oh well and also the movies are terrible but those horrible bosses movies she's great yeah and those movies are huge she became a big star like a big movie star she did you know the breakup was a big hit like she did eventually become the thing that like you wrote about in the 90s we were just like when is this gonna happen for her remember you're writing about that yes because she wasn't picking the right stuff but she just I don't know unlike our girl Cameron Diaz who just made great choices for like 15 years she tried stuff yeah also when Cameron Diaz missed she was back 15 minutes later in something that did hit yeah what's aged the worst we've hit most of this stuff but the there's this whole part where Maxine Bonds is trying to be jealous because he went to the apartment and it's like uh oh my girlfriend's getting jealous it's just bad that doesn't work and then um it doesn't work and the whole thing with her going to France and she might come and Leslie Mann are you in love with her you're not in love with her I thought I was going we did you guys have a relation it's just we needed like three more scenes again it's like to Sean's point it's just not psychological enough um it just isn't you know because sometimes those Woody Allen movies aren't very deep either and yet he is his influences are so much have like they come with a psychological psychological high-minded it's yeah they yeah it's classical literature it's Bergman and but even when it's like these those throwaway movies like Melinda Melinda and Melinda which comes after this movie but like I just think that his source materials are so much richer that even when he has no idea why he's making a movie except he too likes to build houses there's something there that's that's appealing one way or another um and this this is second movie to be fair to Edward Burns it just isn't it doesn't have enough of even an accidental subtext and then what's aged the worst the uh you could make a case the way you know it's from the male perspective there's a misogynistic case you could go if you want to get excited well the things Edward the things that Mickey is saying is that he's not going to be able to get excited about the things that he's saying to Heather in this movie I get it I don't even believe this guy believes those things right I just think he's hurt and lashing out yeah trying to hurt her because he's not like that to any other character in the movie even his brother who he has a lot of problems with you can see he has more affection for what do you have for a flex category um I'll tell you hold on you also can't underrate what it what it must feel like to feel cuckolded in that in that masculinity environment I don't know I mean that and for to have everybody else no it's an elegant segue to my that that category which is the Dennis Peck relationship test yes you were doing that too could Dennis have broken up the main relationship of course Richard Gere from Internal Affairs could break up every single relationship in this movie I wrote down he would go four for four and hit for the cycle Dennis Peck these are facts Hope Renee Heather John Mahoney's wife no question Leslie Mann you keep going don't let him talk about right also Richard Gere in Internal Affairs also Fran come on well you well Fran too he could have turned that would have been for sport yeah he would have thrown that in but it would I counted just to say he did it also there are moments in this movie where to me Edward Burns looks like Richard Gere do you know what I mean like there's a there's a dewy squinty pretty boy yeah I mean there is a Gere-ness to him Dennis Peck could have spent oh my god three seconds with the Aniston character and be like hey why don't we take a walk yeah done close deal did they ever work together Richard Gere and Jennifer Aniston I don't think so Richard Gere and Cameron Diaz Hollywood what were you doing I don't know what were you doing Gere didn't make enough movies during that run of where he just should have been Dennis Peck in nine other movies yeah oh god or that should have been just the tv show spin-off Dennis Peck Dennis Dennis Peck each week he breaks up somebody's marriage uh the CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been her husband and he's like I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know Harrison Ford hottest take award I'll start um I think skanky smoking hardcore Long Island Amanda Peet is the hottest woman in this movie she is throwing 138 miles an hour which I don't think anyone has ever done before every single moment she's just blowing everyone off the screen it's unbelievable Sean was this like your all-time is this how I feel about Blake Lively in the town she's throwing Ben Shelton serves is what you're saying is this the ultimate Long Island girl ever and she's obviously not even from Long Island but what's going on here I'm married to a Long Island girl there's a very special elixir it's a dangerous elixir these girls fucked with a lot of my friends over the years but I mean one obviously I think I think the ringer writ large we got we kind of all got a crush on Amanda Peet right Amanda Peet is kind of she's in a hundred percent approval territory 75th anniversary team I think she'll be but when when she's talking like Denise who I went to high school with like using the exact voice that all the girls I went to high school with are using it does kind of get underneath your skin in an exciting way listen I I wish I could say I was immune to Amanda Peet but I'm not but I do love listening to men talk about her because you guys get really giddy and just the best like it's different from all the other actors Amanda I mean just listening to men talk about you know even on your friends and neighbors now like she just doesn't give a shit she'll just she's up for whatever that's what and she's been that way her whole career she's just ready to roll she's up for whatever whatever you want to do straight talking no bullshit evidently intelligent but not uptight or pretentious in any way even she did somebody's podcast recently and and she I saw the clips from that it's like she's just even the best at this yeah I would love to see that I've never really experienced her much in the wild like off of what's your number one Amanda Peet thing that jumps to mind when you think of Amanda Peet yeah that's a good question something's got to give I don't know yeah whole nine yards good one whole nine yards whole nine yards because that's what like three years later that's three years after this movie yeah I mean they really figured out I mean this movie is responsible I think launches a lot of ships right right this movie's the two dream team they should have made fucking cups I would have wanted like a special collector's Connie Britton cup as well you know can we just honorarily add Connie Britton to this Burns just has exquisite universe cups Burns Sidewalks of New York Heather Graham Burns tasting ladies is just super special Lauren Holly I mean the Ed Burns collector he's like really tough right you know because what's funny about Lauren Holly is she he got he got her at the at her moment yeah I knew her from the soaps Lauren Holly was my girl from all my children shit he made this movie about divorced people in their 50s that of course I saw because I supported Ed Burns yeah yeah I saw it um it's interesting it's kind of bad but kind of good who's exactly but it's I want to say Gretchen Maul Gretchen Maul's in it yeah and she plays like an ex indie rock star Gretchen Maul another one of my favorites Gretchen Maul's in it yeah and she plays like an ex indie rock star Gretchen Maul's in it yeah and she plays like an ex indie rock star another one just like we all know what happened right but the tragedy is every time you see her in something you're like god damn it yeah what was she did she did good stuff in the 2000s too when she got kind of free from some of that baggage oh but like gosh well it's in Julianna Margulies as well in that movie yes yes where he's like actually remember she's really hot don't forget she's hot too like he just has a weird radar the thing with Gretchen Maul she was in the American Gigolo TV with Bernthal that only me and Mallory watch oh I watched it I mean again like I'll watch Gretchen Maul was great in that um all right we'll keep going unless you have a hottest take you want to unleash uh I have one okay um if Edward Burns hired a better co-writer he'd be Noah Baumbach right now yeah I don't even know how hot that is I think you're right I agree there there was an opportunity for him to go right into that space and he is a little held back by what I will describe as something that I find very relatable which is like he's just a little normie you know this same way that I was like, you know what? I'm going to get married. I'm looking forward to getting married. I'm looking forward to buying a house. There's something kind of bred into you on Long Island about a very comfortable regular lifestyle. And he never gets too uncomfortable. Whereas Baumbach, when he's at his best, he's like, you know what? I'm going to show you the worst fucking side of every person I've ever met that is super special. And if he could have tapped into that, he would have been a much bigger and more interesting character. So Ed Burns wouldn't have had a scene of somebody smearing their semen onto library books? No. The answer is no, Bill. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Do you think if we had introduced Joe Esterhaus to Ed Burns in like 1995, magic would have happened? But he saw those movies too. And he made a choice. He did. I mean, there's a world where if I really wanted to be a filmmaker, I'm probably, well, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm definitely bringing more jagged edge into whatever it is than Woody Allen. That's why you love From Hell Month so much. I'm sorry we left you out of From Hell Month. You don't live here. I didn't need to be part of that because I felt like that was one of the great Ringer rewatchable months of my life. We got the rare text from Wesley on Domestic Disturbance. He was just like, gentlemen, thank you. That was great. I mean, I'm holding for what's the one in my queue that I haven't listened to yet? Pacific Heights. Pacific Heights? I mean, terrible movie. Domestic Disturbance, my texts were half I can't believe you did that movie and half thank you for doing that movie. Casting what ifs. Burns said for the two lead female roles, this was from his book, Independent Ed. Between Ellie and New York, we auditioned Angelina Jolie, Jennifer Lopez, Heather Graham, Amanda Peet, Ann Hatch, Lauren Hill, and Jennifer Garner. Stop it. Lauren Hill? Lauren Hill. And Jennifer Garner. Wow. Basically, everybody wanted to be in Ed Burns' second movie. I have some hot actress parts. That's what I'm saying about Aniston. Everybody, he was a thing. He was a thing. Lauren Hill and Jennifer Lopez just did my head in in this movie. Jennifer Lopez playing the Cameron Diaz character. Intriguing. Would it not have been interesting? Intriguing. Right. No. Yeah. Would have worked. And then the other thing, he said Amanda Redford, Renee's sister, came in with her hair teased, chewing gum, speaking with a thick Long Island accent. I said, that girl's great. She's the real deal. She's like the girls I grew up with. And the casting director, said, that's all I put on. That's not her accent. She's from New York City. She graduated from Columbia. And they're like, she's got it. But yeah, she just did it. Legend. Just trailing off, thinking about her. And then for the theme song, they tried to get the Wallflower as Sixth Avenue Heartache. Oh, another banger. A fucking banger of a song before they went down the petty road. But that, you could have put all the Wallflower songs in there and this movie works. I'm strong on you. Strong on me. And it's on in the air. So then he has the whole Tom Petty thing. And Ed Burns wrote, so he gets all of these songs from Tom Petty and he writes, this was as good a start as you can have in Hollywood. I thought this was always how it was going to be. Oh. Fade to commercial. That's heartbreaking. He tells the story about getting pulled aside immediately after the Q&A at the first screening of the Brothers McMullen. And he said there were people lined up out the door of the theater, all along the theater. And that I guess maybe a friend or representation, came over to him and they were just like, don't, you have to realize it will never be like this again. That this is the absolute peak of this kind of experience. So cherish this moment in real time. And you know, that was kind of true. I have a question. Shane Steele said that to me during NBA Countdown once. And was she right? No. Kidding. I have a question. I mean, I guess this is like, I guess this might be unanswerable. This might be going later. Is this for the movie? It's for the movie. But I mean, it's not related. It's kind of in the zone of what we're talking about here. Like, I just wonder what his, does he talk about Saving Private Ryan? Yeah, they talked about he's trying to establish he can also be a leading actor. Because they felt like that, basically but he's doing it because they're like, this will help your movies. Hire your profiles as an actor. But did he learn anything from spending all that time on the greatest American? He writes about that. Yeah, he did. Okay. Because I just would love to know more about that. Best That Guy Award? It honestly might be Mike McGlone. I think most people know him just as the guy from these movies and might not even know what his name is. I have Rob, two people. The chauffeur? Robert Weil. Well, I'll get to him in a second. Robert Weil, who is Mr. DeLuca, the hardware store owner. Because he's a deck. He's in Moonstruck, Saturday Night Fever. And then Malachi McCourt, the chauffeur. Oh, sure. Who is in Brewster's Millions. He is Frank McCourt and D'Angelo's Ashes author's brother. Oh, whoa. The McCourt brothers are, you know, a very famous group of guys. You know, storytellers. They all wrote memoirs. They were kind of fixtures in New York City for a long period of time. Dion Waiters, we have Frank Vincent, Leslie Mann, or Amanda Peet? I have Frank Vincent and Amanda Peet. Who do you have, Craig? I think it's Peet. I think it's Peet. I think it's Peet. Great. I mean, but I just will pour one out for Frank Vincent because he just is so. He's never been asked to not kill somebody or not threaten to kill somebody and yet that energy, he's bringing that energy to this part and it's all aimed at whether Francis has what it takes to be with his little girl. The part, the second scene that he's in where he's like, this down cycle nonsense. I've been with your mother for 35 years, never had a down cycle in my life. Every morning, the daughter's just like, no! Recasting couch director of City, I mentioned how Leslie Mann switched roles with Maxine. We're probably better off. What if I gave you the mother of Jennifer Aniston or Amanda Peet in this movie, Susan Sarandon, just for kicks and giggles? Oh, no. Then you're tipping it over into like, it's too much. Because the movie came out the year after she won the Oscar. You're just completely changing. How about Kathleen Turner? Oh, this is after. I'm just trying to collect. This is after Serial Mom. How about a little Diane Keaton? Great movie. That's Marvin Drum era Diane Keaton? Too much. A little too waspy, I think. I was just trying to think of somebody who would be a name. How about Talia Shire? No. Oh, interesting. Now I've caught your attention. Talia Shire as Jennifer Aniston and Amanda Peet's mom, I'm kind of into. That's interesting. Because you don't. The thing that's great about this movie is nobody is too big at this point to tip the movie over. That was a very Bill Simmons poll. How about Talia Shire as the third recommendation. Yeah, that's good. She could have been really mad at the end because the dad killed Mike McGlone. I know you did this. Oh, Craig, you have a flex, but you already did it? It was Peck. It was Peck just cleaning up on all the beta males in this movie. Half-assed in your research, we did all of it. Apex Mountain. Eddie Burns. Ed Burns, yeah. Yes. Oh, yeah. Maxine Bonds, Baines, yes. Amanda Peet, no. Mike McGlone, yes. Yes. Cameron Diaz, no. John Mahoney, no. Although, he's on Frasier in this era. He's kind of at his consistent apex. It's already happened. Isn't 96 also Primal Fear? Season Primal Fear he plays? Maybe it was his apex. Yeah. Long Island, just in general? Is this Apex Mountain for Long Island? Yeah, what is Apex Mountain for Long Island, Sean? I would have to say. Not when Colin Jost bought the fucking ferry. Like 80, 81, 82, when the Islanders go for three in a row. When the Islanders win the trio of Stanley Cups. Oh, interesting. Four Stanley Cups, excuse me. Right that time? Right after Amityville Horror. That's a little bit after that. Amityville Horror comes out in 79, then the Islanders go on a run. Amityville Horror is not related to Apex Mountain, though. That's a bad thing that happened. Like, that's not. That's the only reason I ever wanted to go to Long Island, to see the house. I mean, Nancy Meyers, something's got to give. Is that something's got to give, or is it. No, it's the. Isn't the Meryl Streep one? Meryl Streep, Steve. It's complicated? It's complicated. Isn't that Long Island? Am I crazy? Something's got to give is Long Island. It's camera number one. No, you're right. I think something's got to give. If we don't know, the answer is no. Something's got to give is the Hamptons. It's complicated. But it is Santa Barbara. Right. So here's the thing. The Hamptons is not Long Island. Like, the Hamptons is on Long Island, but that's not a Long Island movie. It's culturally different. So Long Island not claiming the white party with Michael Rubin. No. And, like, the Fitzgerald family in this movie doesn't go to the Hamptons. They go to Montauk. Right. There's a big difference. They can't afford to go to the Hamptons. These are blue-collar people. I was so confused by this whole part of New York that one time on the internets, I went on and I looked at a map to try to really figure out where everything was. Because I was just. It's like, Long Island's here. Brooklyn's here. You've really. But Long Island's not part of the Hamptons. I look at a Long Island map once a month. I landed in New York and people are like, go that way and this. And I just. Well, that's the thing. So I actually had to figure it out in my head where everything was. Yeah. Brooklyn is part of the contiguous island, but it's not a part of what's delineated as Long Island. The Hamptons is officially part of Long Island and Suffolk County, but nobody would ever consider it that. It's its own thing. It's its own thing. Plus, we haven't even talked North Shore, South Shore, which, you know, you could read that in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Sherald, you can also read it in Nelson DeMille novels in my dad's house. There's a whole, it's a subculture. It's like the Hamptons with is like Brentwood here. Right. It's here, but it's fucking over there. People like Craig. It's for the elite. In my apartment, yeah. Brentwood's way down there. Okay. Couple more categories and then we'll go. The Ed Norton reverse dunk award for did this movie need a random sports scene? I can't believe there's no trip to a Knicks game or an Islanders game. Can I offer you an Islanders game? Can I offer you a par 3 nine hole golfing event? Something. Can I offer you a pickup basketball game where they're on different teams? Where does this family play? I'll bet you they shot one of these. He's from Valley Stream. So I'm trying to think of what golf course. Would he play at the Dix Hills public golf course? Yeah, I guess. But Beth P. Just like that's a one in one golf scene. I like golf. And they wouldn't be that good at it. Got a spring for it. These guys probably suck at golf. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I just wouldn't. They definitely are not good at golf. Get there! What's wrong with me? All right. Couple more. Cruiser Hanks. It's both of them, obviously. Hanks is Mickey and Tom is Frank. Oh, God. Yeah. I had Cruiser. 1996? I had Cruiser as Mike McGlone. Yeah. No doubt. Oh, yeah. Just being agonized. I'm torn, though. Did Edward Burns need to be the star of his movies? That's another interesting question. I like Ed Burns. He needed a writer for the Ed Burns scenes to come in. He needed William Goldman to come in and just rewrite. This is a great question. But if he decides what I'm going to do is I'm going to write parts for movie stars. Instead of I'm going to make Woody Allen movies where it's like kind of my world of people that I star in. Are things different? If he could have kept getting. If he could have kept pulling what he pulled here, right? And, you know, the way everybody wanted to work with Woody Allen. Or if he had a Diane Wiest or a Judy Davis. Somebody who could come in on any movie he needs them to come in on and just dunk, dunkity, dunk, dunk, dunk. Yeah. Or a Mia Farrow. Or Mia Farrow. For a while, anyway. I mean. She's in Crimes and Misdemeanors. She is. I mean, and also just like under. Everything about Mia Farrow as an actor has become, to me, underrated. And I think that the way she functions in a lot of the Woody Allen movies is especially underappreciated. Next category is the Catherine Trameau Would You Throw Your Life Away for this obvious stay away word. I just wrote yes, and then I put in parentheses fill in whatever character. I think four of them. Aniston is not a stay away. She seems like a really down-to-earth, cool girl in the movie. Her character. Her character's not weird. She has a vibrator, I guess. But the others, you know. You're getting Frank Vincent with her, though. Pete. Good point. Man of Pete's character. You go straight to the follow-up. No, but that obvious one. But you'd also be getting an Angelette. Cameron Diaz is the one for this. They kind of balance each other out. Cameron Diaz, would you throw your life away? The answer is yes. Also, can I just raise an interesting question here? Like, I think the more interesting movie here. would have been if Mike McGlone was sleeping with Amanda Peete. Why is he not sleeping with Amanda Peete? That should have been the last 20 minutes. That's the missing scene in this movie. I had that in Unanswerable Questions. When did he start fucking Amanda Peete? And it's probably the sequel of this movie. Well, that's when he gets murdered by Frank Vincent. That would be the end of that. Then Frank kills him. Then it's a From Hell movie, right? Then it's like. It's the father-in-law. He would have been almost as mad as. Almost as mad as when Vito came out of the closet. In season five of Sopranos. Season six, whatever. Oh, Vito, Vito. Poor Vito. What was his name? Poor Vito. Johnny Cakes? Johnny. Vito and Johnny Cakes. Yeah, Johnny Cakes. Made a hell of a pancake. Man, almost time for a Sopranos rewatch. Can't wait. Picky Knits. The greatest thing we've produced. Picky Knits. A drifter cab driver just got married in 24 hours, but now he's drawing the line and maybe moving to Paris with his new bride. I think this is another important thing to say about what. What. Edward Burns just doesn't have an interest in doing, right? That. That question slash sentence is like that movie, whatever that movie is, is not this movie. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. That movie sounds weird and dangerous and cute. I mean, but not cute at all. It sounds like something freaky could happen. Yeah. This is not. The exploration of the relationships here do not have a capacity. For, like, very human things like. Darkness, fetish, you know, real sexual risk. Well, it's like you were saying. It's like, just like some of the other stuff, it's a device. Like, him getting married in 24 hours to a girl that he doesn't know is just a way to get his character to a different place and to draw this other. Because he just seems least interested in that relationship, the dynamics of it, the threat of what it is or is not to other people. He definitely got bored of her about eight states in and was like, fuck. I wish we had gotten married. Why didn't Cameron Diaz's character have better choices than an old sugar daddy and a married Long Island goon? I need to see the sugar daddy, though. There wasn't one more guy she could have met at a bar and been like, hey, how about this guy? We need to see the guy. How did the creepy hardware store guy steal John Mahoney's wife? Great question. Oh, I think he's very loving and affectionate and shows her the attention that she needs at this time in her life. That, to me, is my favorite. detail in this movie. And it's proof that he is a good writer. It's nice and specific. It's just like the great story that he tells in Brothers McMullen about how his mother goes back to Ireland to be with her beloved. That's a great moment in McMullen, too. He does have this kind of Irish storyteller. It's almost like he's better at writing about older people than the people that are his age. I also think that the mother thing is kind of the unexplored dimension in his work somehow. And I don't know if it's like that work is being worked out through the. the way these characters are being deployed is really about the mother relationship. I don't know. He does tell a story about getting to introduce his mom to Robert Redford and that being a real thrill when he's got McMullen at Sundance. Heather just married Papa in the morning out of nowhere. Say, I got married this morning. We don't know she really did it. Oh. Interesting. You think she said it just to get him away? I mean, she's done so many other underhanded, sneaky things. Good point. Any other nitpicks? No. There is that. There's a paragraph in Ebert's review that features like five consecutive plot logic character motivation questions that is just like. He just kind of takes the movie down fully with that one graph. Even though I find this movie incredibly enjoyable. It's not. It doesn't really hold up to investigation. What does he ask? And then. One of the ones that Bill just asked is sort of like, this guy who's a cab driver met this girl 24 hours later. You know, that whole thing is just. It's so undeveloped. It's so undeveloped. Not to mention driving. She's going to fly. She has a plane ticket. She's like, I'd much rather drive with you from New York to. Where was it? New Orleans? It's a long fucking flight. That's like 15 hours. How does Mickey afford that apartment? You know, like. What are these guys' lives? Sequel, prequel, prestige, TV, all black cast are untouchable. This is an Apple TV show in 2026. Oh, yeah. I don't think there's any question. Is this movie better than Wayne Jenkins, Fergie the Florist, Zane Lowe, Robert Evans, Dr. Charles, Nichols, Ted Levine, or someone else? I have Sean Fantasy as the third Fitzpatrick brother here. This 13-year-old Sean. Yeah, looking up to these idiot older brothers. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. Learning all the wrong. This guy's my hero. Having a little brother, having an even littler brother here, I was wishing for some, for there to be some. Shawnee, go start up the boat. Hold on, Dad. I'm finishing this Woody Owen movie. Where were the Lucas Hedges of, like, 1996? That would have been good. He could have, like, flirted with Amanda Peet. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I just feel like there is a character. You think he'd make a run at Amanda Peet? No question. Yes, he would have. You think it better than me, Amanda Peet? Yeah, somehow there's a character missing here. Yeah, that's interesting. You could have made it. I'm going to clock that. Thank you. Just one Oscar who gets it. Cameron Diaz? I wrote down Mike McGlone. I don't even care. I just. I absolutely love Franny. I can't disagree with anything Wesley's saying. I'm not saying he's the best actor of all time. He's doing. He's like. He's in a Preston Sturgis movie. He's doing a big comic broad performance. And it's funny. I think he's really funny. No, I mean, I think he also more than. I mean, I think the thing that I love about Mike McGlone and Edward Burns is, like, they really are in a way we'll never probably have again. These real archetypal continuations of the beginning of the movies, or at least Hollywood movies, like, they belong. They belong in the 30s. They belong in the 40s. And I don't know. I mean, I don't know what Edward Burns knows about himself. But I think the thing he's trying to avoid is being pigeonholed as a person responsible for, like, visually being on that continuum, right? Like, performing that. But it's very satisfying to experience McGlone as a person who really knows. that there is like a hundred movies he could have been in if he was born in 1919 instead of, you know, 1970 or whatever. Oh, yeah. Zouant Ney Award, what happened the next day? I don't think Ed Burns and Maxine Bond stay together in real life or in this movie. Hope and Mickey break up is what I wrote down. Probably unanswerable questions. I only wrote down one. Was Ed Burns a good actor? Yes. In this movie? I think he is a good screen presence. I think you like watching him. I think he's a little hard to root for because he doesn't let himself be flawed enough or weird enough. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You know? I think he needed the pressure. I would say, you know, I lost, I had a, oh, I wrote it down. The last movie, he's only acted for himself since 2012. He has not been in anybody else's movies. He hasn't been directed by anyone. Yeah. Right. So, I think that in the way that you wonder what things would have been like had he worked with another, if his co-writer had been, did you say Noah Baumbach? No, I said he could have been in that Noah Baumbach lane. If he had the right co-writer. I think it'd be interesting if he were interested in, if acting were a thing that were important to him, and I don't know that it is or isn't, but he clearly doesn't do it as often as he's, doing the, directing himself. But what if he just kept working? What if, like, once a year, he just made a movie with one of the great directors? Well, is it, he's in The Holiday, right? Yes. He's like, and he's playing, he's been in a lot of good stuff. And he's playing, like, kind of a dirtbag in The Holiday, and it's like Nancy Meyers sees him, and she sees a guy who's made all the mistakes. And he lets her, like, control him. Yes. And, like, he doesn't do that to himself in his movies. He's always a little bit more genteel. I think the answer is yes. It's a little unanswerable, though, because we've never seen him test himself. It wasn't like he's like, I'm making this movie. It's talented Mr. Ripley. I'm going to play Tom Ripley. No, he doesn't do that. Yeah, like, he just, there's a level he couldn't have gone to. But what if he did want that? I don't know. What did you have for an answer, bro? He's such a fascinating person. Did you have one? Did Ed Burns blow it by failing to stick with McGlone? And then, does this movie love or hate women? Is something that I think is, like, an open question. It's got a very uneasy relationship with women. Uneasy. I think that's just the mid-90s. But how old is he in this movie? Like, is he. 27, 28 range, yeah. I mean, so he's just really become developmentally an adult. I think that there is. I mean, it's important to me. Like, how old are the people making my art when they're making it? Because it matters. Because it means you are primed to see the world a particular way. It's true. It's a movie that's called She's the One, but it doesn't answer the question of who is the one. The one what, though? The one what? So he's 27 when he made the movie, 28 when it was released. We don't know what. If we assume that it's the romantic one, the final one, and the movie ends with him and his wife on a boat together, who is his real-life girlfriend, and they break up within a year of this movie being made, it kind of undercuts a lot of the ideas in the movie, too. The actual story is not as exciting. He just really liked the Bruce Springsteen song and thought it would be a good title. Right. Do you think it's defining? Fitzgerald's is better? Yes. I don't mind She's the One, but Irish Goodbye was the best one. Irish Goodbye is great. Fighting Fitzpatrick's is too close to Brothers McMullen, I'm assuming, so they just, like. Memorabilia you'd want from this movie, other than the TV, maybe the fishing rods? I don't know. Boxing gloves. Boxing gloves is good. Okay. The Watch. Oh, The Watch is good. Hello. Thank you, Craig. Finstock, Miyagi, best, worst, life lesson. Where are the down cycle? What'd you have? No women on the boat. Don't get all sensitive on me. Now, Barbara. Double feature choices, Brothers McMullen. Look what I wrote down. Crimes and misdemeanors. Wow. Interesting. Say more about that. I mean, I wrote this down last night. I didn't write this down when you were talking about it. I think that he's trying to do a dramedy in this movie, and he's struggling with the drama. Somebody needs to die. Yeah. Cameron Diaz needs to. I mean, at the end of the day, we love that she doesn't suffer, and she's the winner. She's the winner of the movie. Oh, sorry. I don't know if I want to step on who won the movie, but like. No, that's our next category. And that's really the question, is he's trying to do something that has gravitas and has laughs. Crimes and Misdemeanors is the ultimate movie that has those two things working. I love that. I would go. I would stay in the era, and I would pair this with walking and talking. Nicole Hall centers. I love that movie with Anne Heche and Catherine Keener about, you know, two friends. This is an each other movie. It's a good one. I haven't seen that one in a while. He makes each other movies, right? Like, we are here for each other. We need each other. If I don't have you, I don't know who I am. We can have a fight, and we'll be together in the next scene again like it didn't happen. It doesn't matter because we've got each other. So you had Diaz winning the movie? Cameron Diaz is your winner. I had Diaz as well, but I really agonized about McGlone or Tom Petty. Because I think you could make a case for either. I think there's also a case to say Edward Burns won the movie because he got. Look what he did! Look what he did! Look what this movie did! So long-term, long-term, Ed Burns. Short-term, Cameron Diaz. Long-term, I think Edward Burns is your winner. I think Edward Burns made a movie for a major studio with these huge stars, or would soon be huge stars. Would soon be huge stars. That's the important part. That really kind of confirms him. And whether you like or don't like the next 13 movies he makes, he's been in the movie firmament of American movie-making for a long time now. And he's still doing it. He's still making movies. Also, he's making movies about people that barely have a cinema. Everyone in Long Island and the Hamptons. But this was the thing with the Brothers McMullen, though. Nobody got my joke. Wait, what did you say? I said he's making movies for everyone in Long Island and the Hamptons. I forgot. I had one last take on this, which is like the Long Island director Hall of Fame. Oh. Oh. Please. I can't even. I don't know if I could do this. So, I mean, there's one who stands. Are there porn directors in this? No. Just straight through. I didn't go that deep. Okay. I didn't go all that deep in general, literally or figuratively. But, I mean, Francis Ford Coppola, of course, is number one. He's from Long Island? Francis Ford Coppola graduated from North Great Neck High School. Now, he went to military school. Stick was showing fantasy. I think he was born in Detroit because his father played in an orchestra that was funded, I think, by Ford Motors. Hmm. But he mostly grew up on Long Island. It's a good number one. Number two, I mean, it's John Cassavetes, born in New York City, but mostly grew up on Long Island. Number three is Apatow. Hmm. Who's from Syosset. Owned it proudly. Yes. Has an amazing career. One of the most influential people the last 30 years in movies. Burns. Hal Hartley. Oh, Hal Hartley. Who is kind of the flip side of Ed Burns. Where in Long Island is he from? That's a good. Ah, Lindenhurst. Okay. He's from Lindenhurst. Wow. And a lot of these guys are from like the Five Towns area, Nassau County, not really my neck of the woods. Hal Hartley's a great one because that's in the movies. And Hal Hartley and Edward Burns are like these kind of weird mirror images of each other. You know, like all the stuff that we wish Ed Burns has, Hal Hartley has. Hal Hartley's doing and like overdoing. And Hal Hartley could maybe use a little bit of it what Ed Burns has. And then the last couple, Ted Demme. Oh. Who is a really good filmmaker who died very young. Howard Deutsch. And. And. And. And the famed artist Cindy Sherman who directed one movie. Wait, she's from. She's from Long Island as well. And Jack Horner. Well, she's out. She's a Hamptons person. Jack Horner. Jack Horner from Boogie Nights. That's the best film I've ever read. Jack Horner. It's the one they're going to remember me by. He feels like he's. What town is Jack Horner? Where was Jack Horner from? Do you think Jack was from like Ohio and he invented himself as Jack Horner in Los Angeles? Or was he like born and bred in the Valley? No, because he was late. 50s probably? You're not living in the Valley in like 1951. When are we going to re-boogie? We did two parts. I'm ready to go right now. Again? Oh my God, guys. I'll do it every year. You know what was funny? I was thinking for the 30th anniversary if we just blind, nobody was allowed to prep. I don't even have an iPad. You should have tricked us. And we just go. And we just try to do it. You should have pulled to come over to my house. I want to do something. Maybe I will. I don't even. Blind Boogie Nights. Is this even. Why are you making it seem like this would be like a hard thing to do? It would be so easy. It's like. It really wouldn't be hard at all. I could have done it with She's the One. So if I could do it with She's the One. This is going to be the saddest part of the podcast when Craig gives his take on She's the One. Oh boy. Here we go. I just want to say I did enjoy listening to you all talk about what it meant to you guys when this movie came out. Exploring the themes, the pieces of the film that you appreciated. Oh my God. I'm about to get a D on my homework. What a wind up that was. I wrote down two things. I wrote, From Hell Month continues with the script from hell. And then I wrote, Ah, to be a tall, decent looking white man in the 90s with a little bit of talent. I mean. So not a fan. I don't know. I mean, look. This might have been a You Had to Be There movie. I watched it with Liz and I just felt. I don't disagree with you guys that like the themes are interesting and are like fun to talk about. I genuinely just felt like the writing and the acting in this movie is like just pretty clunky and blocky and it was just like. It just. It didn't really land. I don't know if it's because I'm viewing it more from like the objective this might be his least favorite of the year and like i have no relationship to this this time this place these people like any of it really so it's like 30 years later when you don't have the attachment of your whole you know like we are viewing it from completely different prisms so you but like you literally had to be in valley stream on long island to get this movie in some ways in some ways i mean i don't know because i am i am with craig i just feel like the thing that would well there are two reasons that i was excited to talk to you guys about this movie one is i love i mean i i love listening to straight men talk about women period it's just when it's when it's like legit and from the heart authentic talk i i just i enjoy it because like my dream team cups analogy that was really why you flew across country to do this pod like top five bills okay good it's a fun movie to chew on i don't disagree with that it's it's it's great because it's a it's a cosmology movie right it's about yep it's it's the constellation of stars and how they all fit together like it sets up so many good discussion points but i'm being dead serious when i say i legitimately think that mcglone saying what does he say you're an ugly fuck i pity you like i legitimately laugh at that every time he says there's a couple good lines i like when when aniston and him get when he's like i'm having an affair and i want to get divorced she just goes who is he who is he yeah who is he plays it really flat i know she's great i mean that's a great moment but i get it we didn't expect you to like this one no i'm not even positive i liked it when i saw it in the theater but it just kind of i really think it's not great i also think that like the moment in time of it is is i just like yeah revisiting this moment and that's why we had to do the thinking about edward burns and like uh what he means what he meant the the place he occupies that nobody else like there just is nobody like him you know what it'd be if it was nba it would be the twitter montage of ed burn highlights would be like ed burns was a problem yeah exactly it would be all like the best parts of his movies all shots of him walking through parks with the hottest actresses of the late 1990s he's got a great eye for talent you know so the like really unkind way of framing this is that you mentioned those indie stars and kind of that group of people that who came before him and all of those people in one sense or another were really transgressive and complicated like filmmakers who made violent movies or these really frank movies that had these like hard dark themes and edward burns was like the logical conclusion of that time because he was the guy who movie executives felt most comfortable wrapping their arms around and saying i want to have my own woody allen i want to have my like safe handsome you know east coast neuroses movie and that that this kind of also signals the end of that era you know the the era of sunday just kind of ends with with edward burns in a way so and like if you hear tom rothman talk about getting brothers mcmullen and how much it meant to him there's an interview with him um on the on the brothers mcmullen blu-ray you know he's like this is like him discovering dennis hopper or something he's like i found the next great voice yeah and i i do think that that plays a big part in kind of the context and why this movie took these movies took off you made the key point though you talk about some of the other guys we mentioned in the indie film high school the seniors and the juniors like bomb back made a bunch of weird movies after kicking and screaming like it took him a while and he really took all kinds of chances all over the place same thing oh yeah he goes into like he's just all over the place no one tried more than him i could throw this splitter i can get it over in the strike zone 98 percent of the time and this is my pitch and i'm gonna throw it i also think that there is a kind of he's resisting something too right like this this movie brothers mcmullen comes out during this like very important this other very important moment for american independent movies which is the scuzz era right and there's no world in which a vert a different very like schmedward schmedward schmerz isn't out here doing you know rape rape rob and drive away no 15 times no right but he is so determined to uphold this other value system he's raising the catholic church he goes to church every sunday just like i did yeah and he loved woody allen just wanted to capture new york and relationships and people walking outside talking about stuff walking outside well they did the the they're i think brothers mcmullen is 75 percent exteriors because he so he didn't have to pay for lights which i thought was such a great idea that he had no money that movie cost twenty thousand dollars he had no money to pay for lights he had no money to pay for lights he had no money to pay for lights lighting well we learned today that ed burns is maybe underrated maybe properly rated or maybe overrated i will say one we learned that this movie had a bunch of great looking females in it and we learned that craig doesn't care about independent film that's right yeah some three things we've learned he's not a supporter of just people in their mid-20s just trying to catch a break just i just we we gave it an earnest try liz and i and halfway through we're like i just i'll just say one other i respect it i buried a very important leader it's not that important but like i was on a sundance jury i thought you were gonna say i've been in a 20-year committed relationship with mike mcglone a boy can have an amazing end to this a boy can dream no i was on a sundance jury with tom rothman and edward burns yeah and uh it was the jury that gave kugler the fruit veil station oh wow and what a fucking flex he they were i mean i think the hatchet's been buried i don't know what i don't know how edward is edward burns is writing about it in the book but um they really believed in ryan kugler i will just say that interesting they really did that was um also um what happened to that guy who kugler i don't know i don't know yeah yeah he made it she's the one and he disappeared forever everything yeah um but i mean i will give i will give them both credit but that rothman talks about this a lot where it's like you basically and i wish he did this at fucking sony and he doesn't do it and if you're listening to this time rothman fucking open up an independent division and support it like it is not just sony pictures classics but like investing in the filmmaker was the whole thing this is how hollywood got so good in the 90s is they made these bets on these people and they let them make two three four five six movies yeah and if you don't do that then you're not gonna be able to get better movies you made the point about bomb back it's the same thing i don't want to get on my high horse too much but i really think this matters and like if those guys in a jury room can believe in kugler then why did kugler not get a five picture deal immediately from a studio that was like do whatever you want you're the future nobody fucking does that why are you asking why kugler didn't because you know i know why but it's not as though i know but it's like writ large it is extremely frustrating that well also like what would it look we're seeing what we're watching in real time right now what it looks like to not do that with these directors right we're watching in real time because these movies are making money they're good they follow the money right now obsession background but does he have like hit does he have a five picture deal does he is he doing he he does he has it and isn't the next thing he's doing like a what am i allowed to say texas chainsaw massacre he signed up for an a24 movie but he's more than likely going to make his next couple of movies you're talking about an obsession guy i'm talking about curry barker yeah more than likely to make his next two movies with blumhouse universal but like and some of that was done beforehand and some of that is being done in the aftermath of the success of the movie and it's i'm not saying we should go back to 1945 where somebody is in a lifetime contract with a movie studio but it's more like you have an executive that executive is your guy and that person takes care of you the example i cited all last year was mike deluca who was just like i'm i'm bringing in pta for boogie nights he's getting to make magnolia i believe in him fully and then you cut to 30 years later and he's the person who is willing to pay for one battle the flip the flip side of that is when it was like i believe in maggie gyllenhaal and the brad's gonna be awesome and then the brad doesn't work and but that's the business though but then they get scared off and they're like oh no no no no no this is the same thing that mike deluca does mike deluca signed up maggie gyllenhaal to do her next movie at warner brothers because that's how he rolls he's one of the only executives who is like i'm betting on the filmmaker more than any other thing and sometimes you miss and it's okay and sometimes because she she definitely swung at pitch i and i i liked the effort even though it was like the movie doesn't work but i liked that she tried they said afterwards like we would back that movie a hundred times out of a hundred she had a good vision for it right to me that's the thing sometimes we paid for it yeah that's just the movies that's what i'm saying like you go back to the bride and like at the end of the year it's gonna look different than it did at the beginning of the year that's just gonna play in a whole different way when you watch it in december versus watching it when the stakes were high and she was watching emerald finnell i'm not saying it's gonna make it a great movie but i'm saying there will be some there it it's subtexts will be more apparent like the badge we can talk about like why it doesn't just watch seven more minutes of babylon i'm at the 52 minute mark now you're making your way through babylon every year i watch seven more minutes i'm almost at the one third point honestly it's really sincerely i know it's been a complicated week but shame on you shame on you on you. You've got to just finish this. Babylon's good I can't believe you don't like Babylon I'll give it another chance I mean we don't need to go I don't need to do this on Daniel he's been getting some shots he's got enough he's been getting some shots he's not somebody who hasn't been getting a chance but I think that more directors should get chances the way that he gets chances to try things because also like until this year with these two guys and who knows how that's going to turn out we weren't having this conversation no we were talking about how it'd die no but I I did talk about it we might have even the three of us or another group of us might have talked about how sinners, weapons, and F1 isn't a mistake it's not it's that this was something clearly that audiences wanted that they wanted original movies with new stories that didn't have to be like oh you've never seen a movie with vampires or you've never seen a race car driver movie but that making them new and not making them attached to something old is something that we want right now I also think that we throw weapons you know yeah yeah yeah I included them on those three we've had some good ones yeah unfortunately at least half of them were horror related though which I don't think is an accident I agree with you does your generation still go into more movies or less movies lately I mean the numbers suggest more like people under 35 we're going to more movies now and I think the end of the superhero era is gonna help is half of the reason why all this is happening that's what my kids say too 100% my kids were always going to the movies from the moment they could drive but I feel like they're more excited about the movies they're going to versus like well yeah we saw whatever IP feels old now Jurassic Park feels old now and I do feel like it's finally time for new stuff to come in and people want to see new stuff it took 15 fucking years for us to get to this point Wesley and I saw what did we see together with the was it a King Kong movie or Planet of the Apes one of them what did we see it was the Samuel Jackson yeah we saw one of those the Sam Jackson King Kong Wesley was in town oh yeah we were like alright let's go to that Skull Island yeah there was no other movie to go to it's like alright let me fucking go to Skull Island so depressing 10 years ago yeah I do think we're in an action glut because I feel like action was filled in by superheroes for so long a lot of the action franchises like John Wick are kind of over we don't really have any good action franchises going right now it's like Mission Impossible all these and it's you know why because we don't have the actors well yeah well this was I didn't want to put this on the table like is the original action boom going to come next like some other original you gotta go see The Furious yeah yeah you gotta see The Furious now that's obviously we need more guys like that guy Chinese Thai production yes we like have no action but that yeah it is wide open right now he's staring at you right now holding a gun and looking at you Sean I know I love him so much there's none of me right now but this poster is saying I was here I was here like yeah what I just don't know cause also the thing about Die Hard and this is important to say McTiernan is that what you're looking at Joel Silver it's got a screen oh yeah yeah yeah it's got a screen play and it's got interesting people like this guy why is he a movie star do you know what I mean like there's so many reasons this should not have worked Hart Bochner right Hart Bochner oh Hart Bochner Hart Bochner coked out of his mind great stuff we're overdue to do it again Wesley true pleasure thanks for coming to see us Sean Fennessey thank you Craig I'd still thank you even though you didn't like our movie thanks to thanks to Eduardo and Gahow anybody else uh Matt Matt um we have no theme this month um but we do have a couple other good movies coming this month so stay tuned for the rewatchables this episode is brought to you by the movie Mutiny only in theaters August 21st Jason Statham stars in Mutiny the new action thriller from the director of Plane when an international conspiracy turns deadly Statham goes off the grid on a one-man mission to take down those responsible if you're a fan of The Beekeeper The Meg or The Expendables this is exactly the kind of movie you want to see Statham in one of the defining action stars of the last 25 years doing what he does best think die hard on a boat Mutiny only in theaters August 21st rated R for strong bloody violence and language Thank you so much.