She Left Corporate Law, Went Back to Work, and Still Built a Global Fashion Brand

What if you looked at going back to a nine to five, not as a failure, but as a strategic move that keeps your side hustle dream alive? You're listening to Side Hustle Pro. The podcast that teaches you to build and grow your side hustle from passion project to profitable business. And I'm your host, Nikola Matthews Okomé. So let's get started. Today in the guest chair, we have Pusayo Olupino, founder and creative director of Pusayo, a Brooklyn and Lego space fashion brand rooted in the traditional Nigerian textile diet technique, Adi Red. Pusayo went from working 80 hour weeks as a corporate finance attorney to building a fashion brand carried by sex with Avenue, Bloomingdale's, Shopbub and more. In this deeply personal conversation, she shares why she returned to law after burning through her savings that were funding the business. She also shares how to life threatening heart events change the way she builds and why she believes entrepreneurship is a spiritual journey. Let's get right into it. Pusayo, welcome to the guest chair. Thank you so much for having me. I am just so excited to be here. I love your mission and with everything going on in the United States and Black women, I think the show is much, it's just so timely. And so I'm excited and I hope that my work of wisdom and experience can help other entrepreneurs on their journey. So thank you so much for having me. Thank you. It's an honor and a delight to have you here. And thank you for your kind words. I think now more than ever, I really want to push to make sure that I'm just encouraging us and uplifting us and showing us how we can do different things and create different pathways. So you are so inspiring because you have a very unique background. Of course, your parents sacrifice the great deal to get you and your siblings to America and to have this shot at the quote unquote American dream. And now I know that wasn't easy to kind of shift away from that. So tell us a little bit about your upbringing and how it shaped who you are. I think my parents, like many immigrants, really wanted, you know, I think kind of vision of America that stayed actually, I was actually born here in the States. My father was a graduate student. When he finished graduate school, he returned to Nigeria with his children. He had two kids in America and my two other siblings were in from work one in Nigeria. And we went back. I think with the intention of staying, he's so deeply committed and deeply loved this country, meaning Nigeria. And so when he got a job at UC Davis, when I was 11 years old. And so we immigrated. Our whole family came and moved to America in 1991. And the immigration experience in many ways, you know, was easy because he was hired by school and they brought him his whole family together. But in many ways, it was also really challenging because, you know, I was in junior high. That was probably the worst. That's the worst age you're not. Anybody that you remember, you don't even think about it. Yes. It's like, stay less. Okay. Yeah, stay less. I was 11 years old going to eighth grade. So I was quite young because the Nigerian students really pushed this kids really quickly. And so I was very young. And junior high was really, really rough. And the first day of junior high, and it's so interesting, I wore a dress, an anterior dress to school. And that dress, and I had my hair, I used tarot pico, which is like the wrap hair. And I, the first week I went to school, I was just dressed like I was dressed in Nigeria and was just laughed at. A whole name called lydus, that called all sorts of things. And so I came home and told my mom, I don't want to wear those clothes anymore. And I don't want to do my hair like this anymore. What is interesting is that that hairstyle the very first time that we, we've always gone mini-virus and never got like super viral. But like our first like mini-viral moment was that hairstyle that really, yes, yes, it was the technique. It was 2017, we did a wrap hair shoot in the tutorial. We just took a 20 second shot from the making of the hair. And I just posted it right before I went to bed like, oh, a little preview. And we woke up the next day. And I was like, oh, I had like 3000 more followers. This was in 2017. So time could have been. And then the video just took a live on its own, and ended up on bulls, and it had been okay, Africa, like just took on a life of its own. So it was really a lesson to me that the very things that about us, that maybe the world rejects, right? Or, you know, the Bible even said that like what is the, the stone that the builder rejects becomes the cornerstone. And so that was like my first lesson and not, you know. But I'm sure at that age you didn't view it as a lesson. It was just like, oh, not at all. I'm not doing this no more. No, I literally came home. I told my mom, go get me your clothes. I'm not doing this hair, get rid of all of it. And I know that hurt her. And I, you know, but at the time, you don't, you know, you don't think about those things. You want to fit in. And you know how this really brought. And I think like all immigrants, my parents were like, we came to this country, so that you can get a certificate. So no one can ever take it from you. And I think there was a lot of fear around paths that were not already paved, right? So they wanted us. We had talked to everyone, we were like, these were the things that they aspired for us. And I understand it now, but just who I was. And I listened to all of that. So like any good little Nigerian girl, I went to Berkeley undergrad, where I got a major major in business. I minored in theater. And my first clue was I worked for a credit card company right after I graduated in marketing. And I just hated it. I hated it. I didn't. I just, was that your first clue that you hate corporate or just that? Oh, I don't want to do marketing. It was my first clue that I ate at a corporate environment, right? Like it was just, you know, because it was, we were doing, it's a, it was a subprime lender. It was called Pravidian. They've since done out of business. They worked by Washington Mutual and then JP Morgan, I think, but at the time, the subprime lender, they did credit cards with these like, absorbed in rates. And so my job was to like, leave the copy and make sure like, what can we get away with? Like, how tiny the deflosures were. So I was really the manager. I was doing like, and now I look it back at it. And I feel like with hindsight, it probably was an incredible experience that would really help us, I would now probably, but at the time, I was just like, I do not like this. So we're just sending direct mail. All the loaps, you know, those, all the loaps that you get is, you know, your house from credit card companies. And I just was not fun. So how quickly did you go into law then? So it was like, I was there for a year and a half. And I came to visit my sister in New York. She was there. And why you medical school? And I loved New York. And I was like, I'm moving here. I don't care what I have to do. I'm moving here. I mean, I just have to be in the city. The energy people, I loved everything about it. And how many was great? I was living in Oakland at the time. And I loved your things. I really love and miss about Oakland in the area. But the New York was New York, you know, and New York, New York. Sorry, New York is New York. And I love, I love blackness in New York, you know, Oakland blackness is very cool too, but it's open. It's very small. And I loved, I loved the community that I experienced and got to see in New York. And how fun it was and how dynamic it was. And just to be interconnected, interconnected and then across the black Atlantic, you know, that you experienced anywhere. Right. It's definitely like a melting pot. It's definitely a melting pot. But you could have done anything to get. You could have gone to FIT, you could have gone to medical school, like your sister. You know what I'm doing. That would, and then the clothing was not a dream at the time, right? Like I just knew I had to get out of there. And this is the time where people would say, if you don't know what to do, go to law school, right? Like people would say, and I don't know, like I feel like you're a little bit younger than me. So I don't know that's true from waiting. We're coming up when I was coming up with like, yeah, sure, yeah. If you're not quite sure what to do, you can go to law school. And I just knew that that was not what something I wanted to do at all or had any interest. Isn't it so crazy? Like to pull over in that for a second, but isn't that so crazy that that's something? That's a message you get in higher education and some just circles and institutions like, Hey, you don't know what to do. Why don't you go take on three years of debt? I don't know what it was like. You can figure it out or like you can teach or you can work in a company. Like there was just all sorts of things that were said to us that just were not frankly true, like at all, you know. And then I also think that was really young. I was 21 years old when I was making these decisions, and that's the other thing. I'm like, we still, if I had to, you don't go to a 21-year-old and ask for career advice, you know, it's like, yeah. Again, I made those decisions, but at the time, I was really prioritizing safety and comfort. And I also think there is this right level of fear that often immigrants had because of what they've experienced that intentionally or unintentionally can make a transfer to their children, right? Absolutely. These are all things I believe. The unlearning process, which I really hope we get into, that I've been doing on my stuff, these are some things you don't learn, right? That you can, you know, if you work for a company, you're just helping someone else build their dream. You're not necessarily, like, all it's doing is keeping you a little bit of a buffer, right? Because that dream was also built by someone. And so why can't you build that? I love that you say that. Yeah, and it's funny because I have an upcoming solo episode about that concept as well, the amount of unlearning you have. have to do. And so I don't necessarily think that people are, you know, predescribed to become an entrepreneur or a business owner. I think what happens is sometimes there's a pivotal moment or just a kind of a start to a shift in the mentality that that leads you to kind of like open a door, you know, like, oh, what's this door doing here? And then once you see, once you open that door and see what's behind it, you start to question everything you've ever known, which leads to the on-learning, which helps you to do a different path. Yeah, all of that, all of the above. I always say that this has been the biggest spiritual experience, a teacher of my life, right? And I think that we think about mind, body and spirit. And I think when it comes to our businesses, body, obviously, because the body has to like type and do all this things, the mind is the one coming up all the ideas. But I think we often forget spirit. And spirit, I have now come to learn, is actually the engine behind the whole thing, right? That alignment with source is actually critical because without it, you know, to need a way that you then do really see leads and balance happen, is through that alignment. But at the time, I think we feel like we have to do it by ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That literally, I was just reading a devotional about that. And, you know, Lucille, like, I, I was thinking, we're going to go through the background. We're going to get to the business. Then we're going to talk about the lessons. But we just, we're just, this is going to be a deep one. Yeah. No, it has to be. It has to be. It has to be. It has to be. Right. So you go to law school, you start doing the law school thing, right? You start doing the, did you go immediately into what's it called corporate law, right? The 80 hours. Yeah. So what happens is NYU is an incredible school. And you get recruited. And I have like dreams. I was like, I'm just been in entertainment wrong. I was like going to family. But you, you get recruited really hard. And I had one of my mentors, but also gone to Berkeley. I recruited me for this law firm, Cleary Gottlieb in a Hamilton. Oh, yeah. I'm not a lawyer. And I even heard of them. Yes. Yes. Cleary is an quirky place. It's actually very interesting place. I think as far as like law harms go, it was the one that I felt most at home. And in many ways, it brought me so much. I mean, you know, kind of, it brought me like, you know, love at the time since ended. But like, my kind of, you know, love and yeah, like it gave me all these things. Like, I got to, you know, and then the people that I met there were really the ones that were like, when I started when the dream telescope started, I was there. And I started sharing with some of my friends who worked at the firm. And the first people that said, shoved me out of my hiding place were Mike's Cleary colleagues. You know, our very first song to launch pop up at the time. Basically, while I was at Cleary, I also was like, I want to go back to Nigeria. I want to reconnect with Nigeria. So I had this desire to just come back home and like, we'll just, yeah, reconnect. And I would take all my vacation and I was come to Nigeria and I would sit in my aunt's house. And my auntie Charlie, I always say, my dad's sister is like the silent investor in Australia, in the sense of like her home, her time, her resources. Without her, I wouldn't have a brand. And she lives in Lagos. And so initially, I was just inspired to just come and hang out with her and my family. And I would sit at home and do nothing. And then I needed to just do stuff. And so I started going to the market and meeting people. And then I was like, wait, how about me? Like clothes. I want to make prints that are exciting and vibrant. And in America, I would wear a lot of Dianne run first and first to work. And I really loved it. But it was like, I kind of want to do this, but do it with my own like Nigerian African twist. And so I started making clothes that I would wear to Cleary. And it needed to work in that environment, right? So how were you doing it? I know you weren't just going head to toe, right? You were doing like, was it like a shirt here, a scarf there? It scarves. Yeah, I think all of those. And then remember, if you're making your own prints, and this is, I do right now, it's huge. But at the time, it was not like this. Everybody was wearing Ankara, obviously. So Ankara, like the last print, right? So with I do it, you make your own fabric, right? So I can, you know, like this one behind us, like, I can decide how many dots are on here. I can decide, you know, I wouldn't make prints that were like African, but just not over the top, you know, and I would just kind of corporatize them in my design, if that makes sense. And so it was this sort of sneaky way to show up at Cleary, feeling more embodied, but not like, oh, I just came back from Africa. Hello, because that's, you know, like it's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But it's a very conservative corporate environment. So you can stand out too much. If that makes sense, I hear you that's the corporate trade off, you know, but help me understand the timeline a little bit. So when you're talking about, you would go home. This was before you started a brand at all. This was just you going home and then you were inspired. And then you came back. So at what point did you start to think about selling items? Yeah. So I think the dream, so I started Cleary in 2005. Starting to come to Nigeria was literally 2005. So I would take all my vacation to come to Nigeria. Every year since 2002, I've been in this country at least once or twice a year. So that was kind of this larger calling that was just like, you must go to Nigeria. You must spend time in Nigeria. So that was what inspired that. And then 2010, not was really when the dream for the brand kind of started. But again, I think we started things scared, you know, like right now I coach, you know, women who are starting brands or who are growing brands. As the number one thing I say before we even get to that is we've got to figure out what your beliefs about this industry that you're entering are. Right? Like what do you believe about it? Right? There's a lot of beliefs about that. So like the fashion industry, right? Like there's a lot of beliefs that I had. And I'm still estimating about how hard it is to have a fashion brand. It is, it is a very tough, you know, it's so funny. I worked with an amazing coach on Lauren Sanders. And yesterday she was like fashion industry is like really difficult. There was restaurants like it is really, really hard. And those things objectively could be true. But doesn't mean that I have to believe it's going to be harder for me. I love that so much. Yeah. No, it's just it's true. So much of what we experience is what is our belief around pretty much everything, right? Like everything was dreamt into existence. And our belief about that thing is what keeps it afloat, right? From money. Like that's like money, right? Money is our own collective belief in money. This is what makes money valuable. So if I believed and I now know that when I started brand, I was terrified. You know, I read a lot of books about starting brands and all of them were like, "Thanks dude, the hardest thing ever. Don't think I don't do it." And so guess what? You know, so I was like, "Tip it, I was scared. I would email it." You know, I just I had a lot of beliefs that I think made it really slow. And this involves turning, right? So if I was starting a day, it would be a totally different approach, right? Like I wouldn't be like, you know, let me call up stocks tomorrow. But certainly I would do much more aggressive outreach. There would be so much I would do that I didn't know truly at that time. Does that make sense? Like I just didn't know, right? I didn't. I never built a fashion brand before. I didn't even know anybody who had. I would eventually meet someone a few years later who's just been incredible in my journey. But at the time, I just was like, I have, I want to start a fashion brand. And there are two colleagues that I had a Cleary Helen and Ricardo who really are really significant in the story. In the sense that Helen I'm telling her this and she goes, "I think just have a pop up." And I was like, okay, I was like, I don't have space. I don't know where, you know, I actually literally picked up a phone. Again, this is 2012. So I think people don't understand. It was one of my thing, 2011. I don't understand the time I were talking about. So we don't have, we don't have any of these things. Like all that that we're experiencing now, we've built. But it wasn't as popular yet. Oh, I think it's okay. I think it just started. And I actually remember the person who Claire Stummers, you know Claire. Yes, she was the first person. Yes. Claire Stummers was the person who put a style on Instagram. She came over and I was dressing her and she's like, "You need to be honest, you're on Instagram." And I was like, "What is that?" She literally showed me. And then she took a picture of it and looked at my living room and she put it on our Instagram page. That was her Instagram page. I don't know if she remembered Instagram. But she was literally the first person to do that. And that was in 2013. She picked up the phone. She called up her friend who had a shoe showroom. But she was going to a, she was going to a trade show in Vegas, which we'll get to magic in a second. The actress again and the story later, she was going to magic for a trade show. So her showroom was open. So our first totally chaotic pop-up was Ad Carey is her name. Carey's showroom on like fourth floor of the building on three because I had been making clothes bringing that with me and just being so scared and literally put them under a bed and it wasn't bringing them out and then we had this first pop-up and people came and people got close and people were really excited and I remember being like oh god like oh no one had to do this right now I have to do this oh so tell me a little bit about even the process of having clothes too so so when you were going on your trips were you lugging all of that back or were you having it shipped to you were you having anything produced in the US as well um it was all being made in Nigeria and so I started so okay so around 2011 at the same time I started imprinted seeing so learn how to do I do right like anything I do I kind of wanted to understand it like the minute I met is neighborhood carmo he's one of the the diaries that I still work with yeah it was like kid met and he's great teaching me and we started making stuff together and then like or I would give him an idea or he would make stuff then I just buys stuff he would make as we would like combine it with my designs and then we would style that right so it's just like this in the beginning um and then I would talk them in suitcases or relatives who put them in suitcases and bring them like it was not in the beginning it was not like this at all like we literally put them in it bags then in suitcases and bring them so I had from like tour we trips by the time we did that first pop up like my father was always coming to Nigeria my mom was always coming to Nigeria and I was always coming so it was between this three of us that I had had enough products to have this first event and I remember two around that time like sample sales were really big as well so that tracks too with just like what people were were looking for and the pop-ups being enticing and then here you were bring out this exciting new kind of prints I remember salonj too had done this shoot where she was in this do you remember like this intricate print Barclang Hinton oh yeah that's what it was called yeah yeah it's Barclang Hinton she was she was an orgy it was boxing kitchen my style I wonder I don't know I think studio 189 as well I started at that time yeah studio 189 and honestly that was really yet like that was you know I think there were a few other brands but those were like you know those were like the majors so then I'm like at this point my interest in law goes to like a negative like it's just like I don't I don't I don't want to do it anymore I don't quit right away either I don't quit right away but it's you know with Cleary most law firms once you get to at this point like year six so it's either are you gonna make partner or are you gonna go and this was my first kind of experience of I don't want to call it failure but my first experience of you know someone saying you know we don't think this is you're right for us here and you know we need to figure out how you're gonna leave and you you know and it was sort of and Cleary they're very probably the best way to for someone to show you the door oh it's like very it's kind of it's negotiated as you talk about it you decide you know that whole thing yeah um and then we actually did my first so then I was like no I'm just gonna leave to launch this brand and we did my first launch as like the woman who's like the director as a director of like human resources really hosted like first like big launch okay like like kind of in her home right and she lived at the Trump towers and now they call it a friend with like the UN building nothing knows the charts of the Trump towers on a 40 chord street she hosted she hosted my first like kind of official launch in her home and that's so amazing it's a card is the Cleary there's a smart business decision behind it too which is they don't know where you're going and there's really smart about that they know that you know I mean I'll tell you other friends who were kind of pushed out at the same time or now you know chief legal officers of based companies and so I think there is there's actually love for their associates and they do want to see you to succeed and so there's a way in which they kind of guides you shoot you out you also know that when they start a starting class of 120 associates the number that are going to make partner are a few apart between and everybody knows that so they actually the design actually that you will like find your way to the door um but I think for me one of the big things I wanted to share to Brad is especially those of us that are black women who've been in corporate we may not we may not know that often has were cherry messages or not enoughness there's a way that it can affect your self-esteem and self-relief you know if someone even is it's like you're in an industry maybe maybe there was an initialignment like in my case or maybe you have a terrible manager who did all these you know kind of really damage your psyche so one thing I another thing was had to unburn that oh that's feeling of not enoughness that I never had professionally in my life all of a sudden I had it and it took me years to realize what it was connected to and I feel like a lot of this stuff that's happening right now I think I have the collective we have to be aware that making sure that you're not taking on any messages about your worth or your value or what you can do based on what just happened of whatever corporate environment you were in you know especially because this happens to be like we're having this mass yes you know kind of like that's hiring across industries that people don't hold on to that because they will it will show up in your in your endeavor if you allow it yes yes it uh preach all of the above I've experienced it so many people have experienced it you don't realize when you're in it kind of like you're in the matrix like why am I constantly doubting myself you know what is this imposter syndrome and it shows up sometimes it carries over even when you're working for yourself but sometimes you're able to step away and realize oh it's because I'm not in an environment where I'm constantly being evaluated and told about xyz shortcoming and and all these things and I never appreciated for my strengths so that is so real and now we could do a whole separate episode on that so I'm a park it right there you can invite me to come back anytime yes this is someone of my favorite things to talk about because we need to do a ton you have to do and the word no we actually do we actually do yes so how do you go from doing your first pop-up to being a brand that's in sacks and you know shop pop and all these amazing places so I wish I could say I left and then I you know got out there and met the buyers and ended up on those words and that is not what happened uh-huh I left really afraid that you know I had read a book that is the incredible book I still should be sharing as I love her and I love the book because it really does give you a lot of information about how to build a brand called the fashion designer survival guide but even the title right the fashion designer survival guide and um by Mary Geller she really gives you like a playbook for how to build a brand so fantastic fantastic book but the first two jobters are all about how this is really hard it's challenging you know it's it's difficult if you still want to do it here's how so I raised that and I believed so much of it right and then there were things I also thought was like oh that's gonna be it it's not gonna be weird I'm gonna cry so first like coming out once I left Cleary I booked for magic which is the trade shows I carry was out um they had like a smaller stunt set trade show inside that big trade shows and in my head I was gonna come back from that show it's called pool and I come up with a bunch of orders and then like just start making clothes and things were gonna be shelf and came back and like I had two orders and I remember being so devastated um and just feeling like such a failure which that's again another mindset would have been oh my god I went to my first trade show I went to two stores yeah people never seen these clothes these people loved it people loved the clothes but like like I want two stores amazing let me take that and use that as the blick frog I came back and was like wow did you act it right and then was learning the business now with money flying out the window right so this part of why I love your show is that that side hustle like what does it look like to learn and industry they want it and turf while you're working right yeah so you're not yes from burning dollars like still learning you know what I mean but that was number one and then um so yeah I was like what I do too many I was walking to stores and it's like those sessions that's not really how you sell you don't really just walk into a store I'd be like hey do you want to carry my clothes back to the store like schedules or calendars is all kinds of stuff you're supposed to be doing um and so well when I was at magic I met a woman named Mercedes Gonzalez who was uh an amazing mentor she gave a talk on how to break into stores and how to have a fashion brand that is sold wholesale and she lived in New York and so I lined up with everybody you know at the end of her talk and then she was like calmly with me in New York it's what I did and she ended up just sitting me down and she's like the product is good you have a good product to buy because these are 5,000 things I would change and she still does that with me to see if I post something and she's like no yeah I don't like that like she's she's the real one, you know, it's social. she literally sat me down and taught me the wholesale business. She had a small coaching group at the time. I started joining the group and every week it's like, "Where is your, you know, you know, what have you done? Have you made your stole calls? Have you, you know, what is the collection? What is your line sheet?" No, I'm burning it through my savings. 2015, I had a tough conversation with myself and said, "You need to go back to Gevejo." And I got a job working at the lawyer for working for the city of New York. New York City Economic Development Corporation. That's really important because a lot of people are going through this now, trying to figure out, "Should I go back and get a job?" And one thing that I always advise people and I feel myself is that you have to remember, like, this is not a failure, this is a natural part of business. Like, you are running, your cash flow is running low and you need more cash flow. So you're going to go back and be your own investor to inject cash into your business, right? So again, with the whole mindset shift of what you're actually doing, will really help you to assess the decision. But how did you evaluate it at that point? Like, how long were you out of work before you decide I need to go back? That was four years. So from 2011 to three and a half years, I think April of 2015 was when I went back to EDC. And I think for, I've been looking for about six months prior to that. And I think I was kind of what I was on and playable. You know, because you had this huge gap in your resume, and it was fine and big when I wasn't getting anything. And then I actually realized that it was everything was set up on the way it was supposed to happen. I got a job at EDC, which was working for the city. Powers were like really wonderful. The benefits were fantastic. We'll get to why that is important in a little bit. And I, but the crazy thing was when I got the job, they were in one building on William Street. Then they did a job. They decided we had to move. The building had bed bugs for these problems. And we're like, we're moving. And all the buildings they could have found in the entire island of Manhattan. They found the same building that Cleary Gottlieb was in. No, I knew you were going to say that. Like what? God is a comedian. God is beyond a comedian. Beyond. Beyond. So I don't walk back in. I've been working for like six months at this time. I know we'll back into this building. And I think this law I realized was a lesson to me about the importance I had placed on certain things. Right. So I'd gone back to this building and now I was making a third of what I was making. They didn't have the secondary. I didn't have the annex card. I didn't have any of those things. And I told Shane, right? Like, which shame would start by Shane? Shane is such a dense emotion that anyone that's working with Shane, like you just need to throw it out. Throw it out. Doesn't do any good. Doesn't do anyone any good. But so much shame. And I cried. That first day, I was like, why am I in this building instead of staying? What did amazing blessing that I now have a job that is like useful? I can work like literally I work 10 to 5, 9 to 5, you know, and I'm out of there. Then I can go work on my busiah. He's don't have to think about it on the weekends. It's don't have to like, you know, in the end, like it was just such a perfect job for me to do while I was still building my business. So instead of gratitude, I was in like, what are people going to say when they see me? And I would see people in the lock. And I'm like, what are you doing here? And I would feel like you come back. Yeah. And I would see clear people and I would like run into a different elevator base. Like that's how like I had so much of my identity was like wrapped in this. And I didn't realize it at the time where this job was really a blessing. So 2015, I was doing everything was really univitual till about 2018. Then I was leaving to a job and all of a sudden I felt left my left hand kind of get heavy and my left arm and I was sort of like, what is this? And then I felt like a tightness in my throat and my chest just felt like the truck was on it. And it's not a story I shared often. But I also believe that this is part of my journey and it's a story I actually must share. I called my sister who's a physician and I said, hey, I'm having these symptoms. And she said, I need you to get some emergency rounds. I had been in, I had fibroids. So I've been in the emergency. I've been in the doctor's office a lot that year. So I had calf insurance, right? Because I worked for the city. So dealing with fibroids, I had two surgeries already. On that, I got the kind of one of those hospital hate it, blah, blah. My sister was like, I don't care. I need you to walk into somewhere now. Thank God I listened to her. I went to CDMD. I went to CDMD. Just then the guy goes, this is beyond what we can handle here. I need you to go to like an ER. But at this point, all the symptoms at the elevator, it's like, or were they at all gone? I was like, oh, I feel fine. So I was dialed because I was dialed. I got in the subway and I go to the emergency room. And I'm there. And then they said, I, woman says, I have good news if that news. I know what's wrong with you is good news. And the bad news, you're going to be here for a while. Oh my god. And then they transported me to Lennox Hill of town. And basically, the left, one of my left arteries at Shredded, like just shredded it. Something called as a spontaneous coronary artery dissection. And it happens to women between ages of 35 and 55. And it can be fatal. Like, if I've gone home, part of your heart basically starts dying because I'm getting blood, you know. So it's a heart attack by another name. And so they ended up in the hospital for a week and had to stand to me. So we stand straight out here. And that was the first inclination that I was pushing too hard. And I was just called by stress. And if you actually know what I was stressed about, I have no idea. I can't tell you. Which is why I think it's really important to talk about this because we get ourselves to work. We get ourselves to work. We zero in and like just forget the bigger picture. Yeah, guilty as charged. Yeah. And you're like, you know, and basically with a scat, it's like the flood pressure becomes too much that it actually causes your veins to shred the tear. That's a scat. And so that first one was 2018. And I said, I said first one. And it actually happens again in 2024. Are you serious? So was that one caused by stress as well? Or is it one likely to have a recurrence? It's caused it's stress. It's caused by stress. Because this was a different artery. So this is 2020. Never forget it. 2024. I'm speaking to a group of 200 graduate students at FIT. Sachs had invited me and James, who was ahead of them at the time at Sachs. And we were speaking to this group of those graduate students. And I just felt this tightening in my test. And I thought, but it wasn't the same. The symptoms were not as severe as the last time. So in my head, I just thought, oh, okay, it's, you know, I was just stressed because we were in the middle of market, which is market is when you're selling the collection, trying to get appointments, you're trying. And that market was just like, you need much more people trying to steal your appointments. It was like, well, it's craziness happening. And I just forgotten. There's self-care, sleep. I think we don't understand the importance of sleep. If I can leave anyone for this conversation, the need to have at least step for me, it's eight hours, but seven hours of sleep is actually non-negotiable. The connection between the lack of sleep and cardiac issues. A lot of women don't understand how directly connected they are, but they're incredibly connected. So sleep is really critical. The meditation, the self-care. And in meditation before, I would say, around between the two heart attacks, I sort of heard a voice that said, clean it up. And I was like, clean what up, mystery, what are you talking about? And it was like, your food, your drink, and your home. That was like the voice. And I was like, well, look, I don't know what you're talking about. And so I now understand that I was like, as you know, when you hear God whispers, then God screams. And then, you know, I think that those were, I was getting a phrase, just a big instructions that I think were specific to me about how I need to take a better care of myself. I was, I would say 30, 40 pounds heavier at the time. I socially drank, like, drank, you know, two or three times a week. Now I no longer drank, which is one of the biggest and most profound changes of my life. And then I think cleaning up the home too was like, I was one of these people. I'm like, God, I have ADHD and just have too much stuff everywhere, you know. And so those, I think that I have come to now know that those that second skyd was you've forgotten, you're forgiving the lessons of the first. So let's reel you back in, you know. And I think when we have these, when we're confronted with ourselves, if it's in a business challenges or health challenges, it forces us to kind of tap into that spirit piece where about. So I think oftentimes we can kind of ignore when we're trying to like do it all ourselves. I think it's so important that you raise this because I feel right now there'll be women watching and listening and you think about how hard you're really pushing. Like nothing's happened yet but you know that you are pushing yourself too hard you know you're not sleeping. I just hope this reaches someone and you know you heed this advice as much as possible and I myself am like thinking like I've got to tighten up with the sleep. I've got to tighten up and nowadays it's just like you just feel like you're doing something like you're striving like you are you know you're it's for a good reason but you just can't neglect yourself and I appreciate your vulnerability because that was just it was an eye-opener because I just can't at first but I've never heard of that so that talk about raising awareness and you know I'm shot. I haven't happened to my spend that's really scary. I will tell you about this dad too that when I got to the hospital the first 48 hours I was sort of like a I was like a novelty you know I was a novelty at the hospital because they were going around their rounds I've bought a box for 30 you know 20 five years so I was you know I was as I said I was 40 pounds heavier like muscle you know so for them they were like 38-year-old woman with this dad like what and I think most of them when they were going through were expecting just did not expect to see me and were really surprised right because and you know I always did that experience like there were angels you know I had this who was in the Vietnamese doctor who was in the rounds and just took such care of me as she was really funny just like stop complimenting me the other residents are getting angry because she just cared and I could you know and I would say it when they're kind of will come up like yeah but it you know did a lot of things you know this this was the time that I've been thinking about it being to just really thinking about how I went out my family and like eggs and all the things I feel honestly and a lot of that was kind of taken off the table from that from that experience because you you know once you have that type of cardiac challenge like there's just things that you have to read trust and also started sharing because I literally don't talk about it so that just never want anyone to be like oh my god that's a sick girl but I think it's so important that we do talk about this because I think as black women we push we push we push and if life decides to stop you and may you sit your butt down you know I remember that we my best friend had is our opening I was like so excited about that I had like all these things planned all these things the middle of market that one I'll tell you the crazy thing I I woke up that morning I called my doctor and he's like come in because I didn't think he was the scat I was like it feels liner I stayed the experience that happened during the talk this is the second time the more next morning is when I call my doctor I like 70 and and he's amazing he answers and he's like okay I think you need to come in let's see you like he wasn't around but he wanted his like cohort to see me this is the partner and I went to the showroom dropped off my computer because I was like I'm gonna come back and then call my doctor was like this was my second doctor was like I'm yeah I have some bad news you're gonna be staying with us today like after he ran all the tests and I'll think what it's like yeah there's something called a troponin test which is when they see like you had some kind of cardiac activity he's like your troponin levels are too high you gotta go to the ER now wow so they're like they're doctors office in the complex and so I just had to like take a cab to the ER which was like eight blocks away but I had everything planned for the next like week and it was like cool off you go to the doctor yeah yeah you just you also made me kind of think of as you're talking I'm picturing us pushing a boulder up like a mountain like how it can feel growing a business and if you don't stop to take breaks or pace yourself like you're gonna fall in that boulder is going to roll over you like that's the imagery that just came to mind as you're speaking so what you're talking about it feels like the side hustling and correct me from wrong so was part of the stress side hustling as well like you were now holding on a job and building your business so can you talk about that like how to manage when you're doing the two I now believe and this is where this is a rule part I actually have spell calling it that the spiritual piece I don't think this can be done without spiritual element whatever the power in which you call greater than yourself I don't care what it is I don't think we can do what we do successfully I think I never understood that building a business is a spiritual and never I just didn't this last two years I think you know stocks bankruptcy last year like really adversely affected us trying to grow bushio even we are at all these places but as we grow trying to allow her and I use that word very specifically allow her to become the house that she is meant to be that process is been my biggest spiritual journey and it's required a level of trust and this is not about religion I think whatever you call God is it is required for me the deepest process of going within myself to understand what does trust mean what does faith mean because we cannot be in two states at the same time you're either in fear or you're in love and trust yeah and surrender right your surrender big word big big word yep big word so bushio up until I will tell you probably 2020 four you know we were yes we were in all these stores but so we get picked up by tax in 2021 the kind of post-black life matter you know I say bring out like company and discovery and live black people with stuff they're like yeah many of them it's possible right and so it was exactly that yep yeah they're like all black people with stuff but not that right and so but I don't think that I could really and we were really writing on the way of that right and we got picked up by tax to pick up by tax to pick up but uh modus and all these other stores and so that just that momentum just drives you right and it was wonderful but I would say in the last two years and had to be the come to terms with again I was starting to boulder because now it feels like a boulder once again and then I started getting glimpsed that weight a second he just dudes just in the whole business town busy and so like bushio came downloaded from God the idea wasn't just like I want to literally stream as deep within me I knew this was the path I was supposed to go so if that's the case that means they're totally done that highest version of this business already exists and I just have to get into alignment with that version and fear down questioning that's not the state of being of the person who creates that you know human fashion house right so the work that I've been doing with my coach with myself is how do I get into deeper alignment with what bushio is meant to be and be calm you understand and that has been a different journey and so if I mean literally we may need a part two because I really want people to understand this that mind your brain has diabetes the mind is meant to be a servant of the larger goal so you have to make a bunch of sales calls and your mind is like this happens to me pretty much every day mind is like no I don't think I'm like what does that mean to me but if I set the intention before I make those calls and stay out bushio it's not the one calling it's the deeper just one within the higher self is the one call totally different outcome totally different experience of the calls totally am I into like am I making the calls am I just like hey whoever's meant to buy bushio grows that's what's who's gonna who's who I'm gonna call today right totally different experience I can totally relate to that and you know I'm just thinking because this is this is such a different five than most of the episodes so you know I hope y'all are rocking with us and understanding and you know if it's not your cup of tea I get that as well but I can say transparently as well like as someone who is in a phase now where I'm juggling a lot you know two kids one who has special needs you know marriage love my own aspirations for myself health You know, I think a lot about that because I think over the last few years, there were times when I was just really forgetting to check in with my spirituality with God and you know, except I believe in God. Okay. And then this year, I've really been on a wave of surrendering. I really have. And so there are moments where I do feel, you know, less equipped. I do feel less prepared than I want to be. And then I have to be like, I remember like, hey, hey, hey, hold on. Like, you don't have to do this by yourself. You're not doing this by yourself. And so that has is helping me so much to navigate this season. So I believe in God too. I think you have to. But the relationship and my understanding, I was raised in a deeply about Christian household, my grandfather is an minister, my father is a professor focusing in traditional African religion, but raised his children very Christian. So because that's that's our lineage. But I now understand to be true. This is where maybe I now divert from the way other people think about it. Just that. You know, I was raised as like Christ as your savior and all this. Now I understand that Christ is a certain consciousness. Christ was someone who was born to a woman who understood what complete alignment with the divine looks like. He was showing us the model, right? So if you really begin to look at, you know, be still and knows that I am God, right? I think it's sound 4610. The way that I now understand that when I was young, when somebody was like, be still and know that I am God, like I don't know what's up here, right? And now the conversation is be still to the thoughts of doubt, fear, shame, guilt in my mind, still, I know that me and God together, God this. Yeah. And it's a different way. And this is where meditation becomes really powerful. And I think this is really the only reason why one should meditate is that when you begin to get quiet, being to hear that, well, there are actually two personalities in here. There's the one that's profound that has doused about things and fears. And then there's another one who has a completely different voice, the voice is so quiet, you know, that voice that says, why don't you send me a V now? And if I think what really thinks that took our business from zero to the next level, you were all these quiet voices that was like, you know, give me two examples. If I for raise fashion is the middle of the night, I saw the so blooming W. W. D. And it said, you know, raise fashion. This group was created to support designers. And I said, applications at that moment, the woman who read my application, when the virus asks. Wow. I used to complain about Mercedes forcing me to create collection when none of them were selling over the years. Well, when that opportunity came along, I had a body of six seasons that I created. Nobody had bought them. But I started for the application. And I knew what a line she was. I knew how to price for early. I had good images. So that the package I was able to present to us docs was so much more complete because of this woman I admit in 2012. Wow. Who was on my ass every season about what I was doing. Yeah. Well, you said two things that I don't want to miss. I don't want to miss the takeaway that you shared. Like one is about the being still, right? You know, you mentioned briefly the thing about ADHD. And I think a lot of us black women are undiagnosed and you know, misdiagnosing really bad. And one of the symptoms of that is the racing thoughts. So it's so hard to sit and just be present in meditation because our mind will be like, don't forget this. I do that, right? So that's why it's so important to learn how to be still in order. It's a muscle. Yeah, it's a muscle. And then also, you know, what you just said to about the preparation, sometimes along the way, it feels like you're losing as you're doing all these things. And people are saying no, and people are saying no, but you don't realize that you also are building a muscle of being ready with the next person called. So for example, if you're doing negotiations and you keep quote unquote feeling like you're losing, no, you're just getting better at negotiating. And then when a major deal or something comes along, you're going to negotiate the hell out of it and get an amazing deal with a bigger brand that you probably even started out with. All of the above. I think meditation, I'm a big believer in books. So I'd love to recommend some stuff. I think the first book I read that really helped me understand meditation and why it was important was a book called On Tethered Soul by Michael Singer. I've heard about this book. I have a fantastic book. He does a great job of explaining why you should meditate and how to do it. And I think people say you have to stop the thoughts. It's like stopping your tongue from tasting. You can't stop the thought, right? It's to create space so that you can watch the thoughts. So in the end, our mind is a movie screen. And it's playing a movie and you are the screen. And the movie is just going, going. What happens with us is a movie shot, you know, let's say if it's a thought, I don't want to make my sales calls. And they're going to be mean and they're going to hang up on end of it. So we follow that thought and then we come to some conclusion. And then we feel bad and we don't we feel drained and then we don't do what we're supposed to do. I go post to watching the thought go around. I don't want to make these calls and you don't have to follow it. You don't have to follow what it has to say. So you begin to create a space between you. And then what he said, if there was one made, your thoughts was like a person. And that person was telling you, speaking to you, you would probably kill that person. Because the thing that's staying all day is like never thought talking. Always chattering. It's so annoying. You wouldn't, you wouldn't have lied it. So the key is the key to faith between you and the dog. That's his, that's the news. So a couple more questions before we jump into the lightning round. Tell us about the money side of this, right? What has been your experience, you know, generating revenue, aiming for profitability, being profitable or not profitable? What's been your experience? Before, you know, we've had some really tough years and we've had some really great years, right? So I would say like those posts, 2021, 22, 23 was like, was amazing. Yeah. And then you, and then, you know, that's how to bankruptcy. And that, you know, affected us as, you know, a bunch of other brands as well. And so the, you know, I always think that right now I'm in my trusting base, right? But I will tell you that fashion is like, there's such a, it's very, very, it's had it is, but it's also just vital, right? In the sense that we're creating something that I still think that the American market needs. And there's still like a huge gap between what they're kind of buying and what fashion is saying and the story that we're telling. And I think of that as a major opportunity. Like I don't, you know, it's like the guy who selling shoes that goes to an island, they know one has shoes. And like I was like, oh my god, no one has shoes. The other person goes with the greatest thing. No one wears shoes. Yes. You know, I'm like that. I'm like color in print is still so like in this, in America, it's just in America fashion. And clothes that are maximalists are still not like everywhere. And so for me, it's like, oh, this is just an amazing opportunity. Let's go. And so that's been, you know, kind of my driving mission as I sell librarians. And I still sell it myself. We've had periods of time. So we've been represented by showroom and you take it in house. You go back out. So I had to start the fashion history. And then we did it. We had a deal with friends the runway that was like really lucrative and was fantastic. And so looking, there's so many opportunities for partnership too. I think in fashion. And you know, I don't have any problems with pitching. I pitched, I pitched me on your show, you know. Yeah. Yes, she did, y'all. And I get a lot of pitches. And usually 99% of them these days are just a no. But I was like, oh. Yeah, always. You just, you have you, you have to. And, and then at that point to you, I'm living really big faith and trust, right? Like, I understand that the bolder I was trying to shove it up, right? The spiritual insights, the understandings that have come to me in the last two years have been so profound that I have to, like, I trust so much that this dream was like, it's already done. I'm just in the process of like bringing it in. And it's not that I'm not like focusing on the numbers I am, I think it's really important. I just know that I'm going to create a world that is still being birthed, right? And so that takes time. And I trust that my needs have always been met. So why wouldn't they be met now? That's the kind of belief you need as a business owner. It's easy to be happy and content when you have those amazing years, like, you know, 2021, 22. And but to hold on to that belief during the hard years and to also not be so affected it by like kind of of another meditation where that can come into play is because if we align our happiness and joy to a balance sheet, that's not good either. So the business, yes, it's important, but also it's gonna go up and down. So if our whole worth and joy is based on how the business is doing, then we're just setting ourselves up for failure. - They're like flint and flunny. So you're about, we have a phrase that says, "T-B-T-R-E-L-I-E-L-E-I-E" is a good, and actually starts in the bad and in the good, we create the world, right? So yang and yang, that's the same concept of yang and yang that you see in Asian belief systems, Chinese belief systems, like both everything goes hand in hand, they're just two hands of a spectrum. So we had amazing years, then we had lean years, and then amazing years are coming again, like that is just how life works. And, you know, I used to believe in competition, I kind of no longer believe in them. To be honest with you, I look at trees, I know this is where the, you know, I look at trees, right? And each tree has its perfect, how the reason why it is. And you don't see them competing, like you don't see them like, no, it's birds of the same way, you know. You're, again, you're about, we have a lot of proverbs, and there's one that says the birds fly in the hot as the skies without crashing into each other. And as you ever noticed, you've never seen a bird, like it, another bird. You've never seen that, they don't like that one. - Yeah, and they all fly. - They fly very close, but they never. - So, we lived in an abundance universe, a abundant universe that wants to expand shit. That's like the number one rule. So if we listen to a abundant universe where it's costly, it's inexpensive. Why is that hell with them? Lucia will be everything she was created to be. Why the hell not all? It's in the DNA, it's in the code, you know? - So, where can people get Lucia now? - Starling first on our website, shop Lucia.com. That's number one, the margins are better. So yes, if you wanna buy Lucia.com buy, we just did an incredible pop up in New York City on the Vowry, we're there for those two weeks. That was amazing. And you can get us a spa. Get us a blooming dill, shop log, and there's a beautiful, there's beautiful stores throughout the country that I love, beautiful store in Charlottesville, Virginia, Portugal, Texas, the carries Bucayo, a new store carrying us in North Carolina called Bull Shops. So we really are making our way across the country in so many different ways that I intend to have the brand in all 50 states in America and globally. - When you're in boutiques and larger retailers, is it more of a brand awareness play or can that be profitable as well? - Oh, it'd be very profitable, depending on. - So, a couple days, they're consistent. If you have a consistent relationship, they're buying quarterly, right? And so, even though you're selling wholesale, they're buying quarterly, it's a great place for discoveries. So people find you and then come to your website. But also, the pump up really confronted to me, the importance of this, the wholesale and vertical, because there are people who I've never met before who are not part of my native world, who came into the pop-up and said, I have three of your dresses. And I was like, 'cause you don't, when you're packing up the boxes and shipping it off, you don't always think like, oh, then yes. - You know someone's buying it, but to me, I was like, oh, we have actually own significantly, because there was, yeah, as I said, I was meeting women from all around the country, full new the brand, who won when they came from Minneapolis. And she's like, I have two dresses of yours already, and I was so happy to see that you were here. And so, there's a way that those clothes become yours with marketing for you in pockets of the country, you understand? And then those customers want to come to you to see what you have. - Or just like, I buy the higher that's not. And I'm always going there to see what else they have. And then also, I think in terms of world-building, I'm really changing frankly, beginning to change what customers taste are, right? Because if you see, it's a drug made from this, you may be like, well, that's a lot. But then it starts to do something to your brain, you know, like, I kind of like that. Well, maybe you don't like it, but maybe the next season, you see another thing, you're like, oh, maybe. You know, so, I think that the wholesale channel is actually very important for clothing brands or jewelry brands because there's just a way that you can reach pockets of the country that you wouldn't necessarily meet. You know, we have a store in Texas that carries brands. And I went down to Texas engine event, met so many people there. And maybe more cities, like, convinced me, but I'm a big believer in the wholesale. And especially what we call, like, the specialty boutiques. I think they're fantastic. - So we're going to jump into the lightning round. So you just answer the first thing that comes to mind. Are you ready? - Yeah. - Sure. - All right. Number one, what is the resource that has helped you in building your business that you can share with the science of your audience? - So for fashion brands, I think I shared it, the fashion designer survival guide raised fashion now, which is an incredible organization that supports fashion brands for just general entrepreneurs. Honestly, I've done a lot of mindset work. I think Carol, the week's mindset book, there's a podcast where I really love David Bayer. I love watching his content. Yeah, those are my, that's my answer. - Number two, who is a black woman entrepreneur who you'd want to spend a day with? Or even trade places with for a day to kind of glean from their wisdom? - I mean, such a terrible answer, but I still think Oprah is an interesting figure to talk to and want to watch because how do you build this like healthy, incredible business with the hard post productions, but still be like the phase and you're not like working 24/7. Like, that's always my question for her. It's like, how did you do that and build this healthy company? But still have to, you know, and how do you like balance it all, you know? - Number three, what is a non-negotiable part of your day these days? - So, meditation, it sometimes, it sometimes becomes a gospel but really shouldn't be, really in the beginning of the day, assessing how I'm feeling and if I'm feeling anything less than an eight or nine terms of amazing, really trying to identify why and adjusting and trying to change my state to a higher state of feeling. When I'm in Brooklyn, my daily walks, not a push about, they make a huge difference, yes. Number four, so what's a personality trait that has really helped you significantly in business? - And I think, oh my God, that's such a great question. I think I'm really friendly. I think people like talking to me, I think I'm very open and curious. I'm, yeah, open and curious and I don't, I try to the extent I've had to be really warm when people meet me and understand that you can get a lot more with honey rather than a stack. - And finally, now what is your party advice for fellow women entrepreneurs who want to launch their business, be their own boss but are worried about walking away from a study paycheck? - I think, number one, what are all your beliefs about what is scaring you? Know what they are, know what your beliefs about, especially where your fear pockets lie. And what I mean by that is, what are the things that trigger you into a state of fear quickly? So have those know them. And then whatever your higher power is, ask them to accompany you on this journey because you cannot do it alone, you just cannot, it's not possible. And I think that is really, really critical and really important is how do you have so much more expansive and intentional approach to how you build, but knowing your own traits so that you can work on them and you can transmit them and transcend them and change them, right? 'Cause you can change your traits, you know? - I love that fear pockets. That's such a good way to put it because that's what it is. It's like they always pop up, they're there. They're like, you can group them together. If you really think about it, you know what it is. And then you can, they came when you were zero to seven. Someone programmed you with hot. Some of it you were worn with. It's not even yours, it's like ancestral. So, you know, all of that. - Fortunately. - Yeah, no word comes on and why they passed that on. So, all right, well, this has been wonderful. This has been a blessing to me and I hope to so many others. So where can people connect with you and shop for sale after this episode? - Oh, they can shop for sale for sure. My email is readily available in our website. You need to find Instagram, you can get an IDM's totally on Pusayo World. And then I'm just growing my personal Instagram for a long time. It was just a brand Instagram. So I have my tiny Pusayo personal Instagram Pusayo journals. I feel free to reach out there as well. But Pusayo World is a brand Instagram and Pusayo Journal is my personal Instagram. - Thank you again for being here. Like seriously, this has been amazing and a blessing and different from any episode that I've ever done, but really so filling. So thank you. - Thank you so much also. I mean, if you and I had talked a year and a half, So it would have been a different conversation. Isn't that crazy? Same here. Yeah, same here. It would have been a different conversation. Yeah. I think the 40s are different for us as well as black women. Yeah. There's something really powerful about it, but it's also extremely transformative. And I really encourage, if you are on this journey, understand that by your own might, there's only so much, but with spiritual, whatever that looks like for you. And you begin to see like, oh, it's just not, maybe as hard as I have made it. So thank you so much for building a space for women to come to have, like, just the resources that you need available. Yeah. I'm so grateful to you. Thank you. Thank you. And with that, friends, I'll talk to you next week. Hey guys, thanks for listening to Side Hustle Pro. If you like the show, be sure to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts. It helps other side hustlers just like you to find the show. And if you want to hear more from me, you can follow me on Instagram at Side Hustle Pro, plus sign up for my six-foot Saturday newsletter at sidehustlepro.co/newsletter. When you sign up, you will receive weekly nuggets from me, including what I'm up to, personal lessons, and my business tip of the week. Again, that sidehustlepro.co/newsletter to sign up, talk to you soon. [BLANK_AUDIO]