She Has the Courage to Lead with NSW Fire and Rescue Commissioner Jeremy Fewtrell

Acknowledging Country and Introducing Commissioner Jeremy Fewtrell I'd like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners on the land in which we meet today and recognise their continuing connection to land, waters and sea. I pay my respect to Elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to any Aboriginal. Torres Strait Islander people may be joining us today. So welcome to She's Got the Courage to Lead podcast series which highlights exceptional leaders in government and champions the great work being undertaken to enhance the lives of others, including women at work. Our guests highlight what it takes to lead with kindness, integrity and courage within government and the community they have the privilege and so passionately serve. My name's Michelle Bounde and I'm the founder of She Inspires Me and today I'm absolutely delighted and it's an incredible honour to introduce my guest which is the NSW Fire and Rescue Commissioner. Jeremy Futural Commissioner has over 28 years frontline and executive experience in Fire Rescue in New South Wales. He has LED responses to major emergencies, including the 2000 and 1920 bushfires in recent floods, and is recognised for his leadership, community engagement and commitment to public service. With qualifications in natural resources, business and fire engineering, he's a highly regarded and respected emergency leader, keynote speaker and advocate for prevention, education and operational excellence. Wow, Commissioner, welcome. Commissioner Fewtrell's Lifelong Dream to Join Fire & Rescue Thanks, Michelle. It's great to be with you. Yeah. Speaker 1 Thank you so much for joining us today. My goodness. I would absolutely love for you to share two things, if that's OK today, your leadership journey and how you ended up in fire and Resco and the incredible role that you have today, but also this amazing community that you serve so that the people that go and serve our community everyday to support our community. Speaker 2 Yeah, well, in some ways I guess you'd say I probably ended up where I had always wanted to be with Fire and Rescue in New South Wales. But a a long family connection. My grandfather worked for the fire brigade after World War 2 until he retired. And so he wasn't a firefighter. He was worked in the stores and then ended up as the head storm and for the organisation. And back then, wow it, it was a real hub of industry. Our workshops, we had boot makers and tailors, we had bodybuilders for the trucks, we had a team of carpenters and all sorts of different trades. And he was supplying all the, the stores and equipment that they needed as well as supplying that to the, the fire stations for their work. So back then also work health and safety rules were a little bit different. So it was final ride for his young grandson to come to work with him when I visited Sydney and you could say it got got into my blood early. So it was a little kids paradise from my perspective, being at the Fire Brigades workshops and having all the fire trucks and firefighting equipment and uniforms and stuff to wonder at and climb over the trucks and so forth. And so it was quite all right for Gordon's young grandson to be wandering around relatively unintended. And I'm not making any aspersions against health and safety where it is now, of course. But I've got all my fingers and toes. Everyone kept an eye out on me. And but it really did say the speeds from a very young age. So I had from then on always, you know, from about the age of or so I've always wanted to be a fire fighter. So it was one of the most exciting moments when I got the letter to say I've been accepted and was going to be starting on a recruit course. So that was, that was pretty amazing feeling and it was a lovely thing. My grandfather passed away when he was, I think he was 97. And so it was a lovely thing for him to be able to see me progress in my career and I was able to share a lot of the journey with him. And I was an inspector when he did pass away. So it was a nice. Speaker 1 Very proud. Speaker 2 Yeah. And look, and it's, it was really good for me because he was incredibly proud of his service with the fire brigade and the fact that you're contributing to an organisation that does do so many amazing things. And the thing that I really learnt from him was showed me first hand. Yeah, firefighters are always really proud of their work. But everyone else that works in our organisation, it means so much to them as well. And in fact, it meant so much to all of our, you know, my mum's family that that sense of connection and service to this organisation and so gave me a real appreciation of the way that everyone in an organisation like Fire and Rescue contributes, not just the people that might be on the front line. From 20 Weeks to 12: The Evolution of Firefighter Training Yeah, that's a great story. So tell me a little bit about about the training. So you got the letter. What look like when you look at the training now, because your, your Dubbo training facilities are absolutely phenomenal. And so I'd love to know a little bit more about the old days training and, and what that's like now. Speaker 2 Yeah, the training's come a long way. So we've got a, you know, really good state of the art training centre out at Orchard Hills in the western suburbs of Sydney. And that's where we do all of our training for our permanent firefighters and then our retained firefighters train. Sometimes they go there for training, but sometimes they also go to our regional training centre. So we've got those scattered around the state in Armadale, in Wellington, just near Dubbo and Albion Park and then also Deniliquin. And so our firefighters go there now. There's so much that you need a firefighter to know and to learn and so many different things that our work gets us involved with. So it's a real challenge to to fit it all in. We've done a lot of work recently with our permanent recruitment programme or training programme to get to get it running as efficiently as possible. And so we've got recruit classes starting every fortnight at the moment and. Speaker 1 Oh, you're kidding me. It's. Speaker 2 Lovely to see our training facility at the Academy just absolutely running on all cylinders and and really ticking along nicely. So cram a lot in. We've got them for 12 weeks and when I did my training it was 20 weeks. There was a lot of sort of clunkiness I guess back then. So a lot of sort of inefficient use of time. So although 12 weeks is less, I think we're maximising every single minute that we've got the recruits there for. It's enough to give them a really good start. And it's very thorough from all aspects of, you know, big focus on safety obviously, but then the range of things, you're only ever scratching the surface. You know, there's so much to our work that there's always something more to learn. And yeah, that's, I think that's one of the things that I've found the most exciting. You never know it all in this job. Developing a Passion for Rescue and Understanding Fire Behaviour So, so you got your letter and then you go off for I think you've seen 2020 weeks. Is that how you started? Speaker 2 And I was living in Armadale, so I moved from. Speaker 1 Armadale. Speaker 2 From Armadale to Sydney, stayed at my put a fold up bed in my aunty's lounge room and slipped a big. Speaker 1 Change for a country boy to go to the big city. The big smoke. Speaker 2 Lucky that I had a lot of, you know, familiarity I guess with Sydney, with family and stuff that we'd regularly come and visit. So it wasn't too much of A shock, but it certainly takes a bit of adjusting. And, and then I had another friend who started at the training college just at the time that I was finishing. So he and I and A friend of ours, a friend of mine from uni, we ended up all getting a house together and, and moving out there. So that was a bit of fun. Speaker 1 So, so when you first go off for your training at say Sydney, is this where you end up or then do you get post? Is it like the place where you go and then get posted somewhere? Speaker 2 Theoretically you could go anywhere, but in reality there's sort of waiting lists for those country locations. So it's a little bit different in the fire brigade because there's sort of more people than there are regional spots for permanent staff. So the reality is you're normally going to have to do some time in Sydney and go, you get the chance to go to those regional locations later on. So I was sort of all, all happy to come to Sydney and work there. And it ended up having 10 years working in and around Sydney. And then we went out to Dubbo around that time. Yeah. And so, yeah. So we, you do the course and you're working hard, you know, any sort of recruit training programme, whether it's defence or fire services or police or whatever, you know, there's pressure that comes with that because there's yeah, definitely assessments and things that you have to pass key milestones. And then of course you're sweating on where you wanna, where you're gonna end up, where you're gonna get stationed. And so that was the the big one for those last few weeks before you're finishing up. That's what became a big focus for everyone. Speaker 1 And, and what and what was like, what were you passionate about? Like so you've, you've, you know, it was your dream to be like, you know, your grandfather. And is there something like special that you really had a passion for? Speaker 2 I had an interest in doing rescue work within, you know, the broader scope of firefighting and that was probably informed by a bit of my own professional curiosity and then also talking to some friends who were in other fire services and just the sorts of things that that they were highlighting. And then the other thing for me was the actual, you know, the firefighting and the fireside side of things. I'd been studying with the Institution of Fire Engineers in the lead up to joining in the organisation. There was a couple of key events that happened. There was a couple of really serious flashovers that actually claimed the lives of some firefighters in the UK in the year or so just before I joined. And that really led to a significant change into the the understanding of the science and like what, what happened? How did that occur so? Speaker 1 So flashover what? Speaker 2 Yeah. So that was a sort of a a type of fire behaviour. And we're talking about firefighting in buildings and predominantly they were happening in in small spaces, Yeah, in, in domestic sort of houses. But where the fire's the fire's starting, it's not necessarily burning brightly, but it's building a lot of smoke and unburned products. And then at some point the fire transitions to a fully involved blaze and that transition is called a called a flashover. And what was happening is firefighters were getting caught in a building when that transition occurred and didn't have an appreciation of how to read the environment and to understand the warning signs in the immediate lead up to that. And then what they could do with the hose that they had to help reduce the risk of that violent fully involvement of the flames occurring. And so for me, I was always really interested in that, I guess, because when you're a, you know, a fresh mind with a blank page, those things can sort of have a significant influence on you. It certainly sharpened your mind when you're reading about, particularly one of the firefighters, she was a young firefighter in Bristol, you know, similar age to me and everything. It really sharpens your mind that suddenly, you know, they're dying in a fire. So it doesn't get any more real than that. So I guess so had a had a strong interest and professional curiosity in that by the start, yeah. The Power of Mentorship in Shaping a Firefighter's Leadership Path So then how did that leadership journey start then? Speaker 2 It's interesting when I one of the best things I I was very fortunate that my first station officer, he was a very experienced operator. He probably only had, he was in his last few years before he was due to retire. He'd worked very hard and very well regarded across the organisation and I was fortunate that he sort of really took me under his wing and gave me a, a good sort of master class that was sort of a really good sort of finishing school. I guess if you're lucky, you've done the formal training and then he really sort of made sure that you knew all the insurance and outs. But one of the things he said to me, he said time goes really quickly in this job. He had two other brothers in the the organisation. Wow. Yeah. And you know, he said, look, yeah, the three of us, we're almost at the end of our careers and it's just one by. He said, if you don't pay attention and make a, you know, have a bit of a goal or a plan that suddenly just goes by and you might not have got to where you thought you could have got to. So he said, have a think about it. And so he said to me, you know, what do you want to do in this job? And coming from a regional area, I was keen to go back and I, I was actually really interested to go back out there as the, the duty commander or a country inspector looking after, you know, the, a regional zone. And one of his brothers did that role and he go, it's, you know, he said, oh, my brother does that. He really enjoys it. That's a really good goal. And so that was sort of. Speaker 1 The first a great mentor for you. Speaker 2 Yeah, it's just the power of those conversations, the fact that people take the time and wouldn't have mattered what I said. He would have sort of supported me and sort of helped me sort of map out a path to get there. But it certainly really sowed, sowed the seed for me. And then it was a lovely moment. I hadn't forgotten that. And that sort of always been a, a goal. But when I did become a duty commander and I was working in Dubbo and looking after that Western Plains area, one of my friends that I'd worked with for a number of years rang me up and he went, how cool's this mate you? That's what you'd said you'd always wanted to do and now, now you're doing it. And I'd sort of realised that myself. But when just when he said that it was a really powerful conversation, I went, oh, wow. It's just sort of one of those special moments where you just sort of get to pause and think, I've done it, you know, it was straight. So that got me thinking. And then as a firefighter, the pathway to get to inspector a station officer. And I always wanted to be a station officer. And that's such a good job because you're, you know, you're in charge of the crew for the day. You get to sort of work out how the station runs, the things that you're going to focus on building up your firefighters, you know, understanding where their different strengths are and, and how you sort of. Speaker 1 Build a complimentary team? What? What if I was in Sydney? What how many would be like in my team at the station compared to like the country? Speaker 2 Most of the stations, the way we are organisation set up, most of the stations are just one truck and there's so there's a crew of four, so the the station officer and 3. So it's a small team and that's a really nice thing because you do have the time to spend with each of them and you can, you're not trying to manage a huge crowd. You've, you've got, you know, the opportunity to really get to know them really well. We often get really strong connections and bonds and friendships that that form during those times when people are working together in those small groups. But you've also got the chance to keep working on things to get it better. It's, you know, not as if for lots of people moving around and you're, oh, I didn't get back to, to fix that up or whatever. You've got them in a pretty confined group and you can work together regularly. So that was really good. So I Some of our stations are bigger and so I spent some time as a station officer at our big station in the middle of Sydney. What's the? Speaker 1 Huge, that one. I've been there. You've got a great crew there, by the way. Yeah. Speaker 2 They're really good. They enjoy it. It's a busy place, but they're yeah, it brings its own energy and and they all do a really good job at getting in and engaging with people. But. So there you had about 25 people on each shift. And so I spent some time there as a senior firefighter and then as a junior station officer. And it taught you another set of skills about how to manage a larger group, which worked out really well because when I went to Dubbo as the station office, so I had my own crew of three, but then attached to our fire station, we had about 20 or so retained firefighters, which are our uptime firefighters that are on call. And then they just come in when there's a yes, an incident. And so suddenly you could be at a job and end up with, and we had another station in Dubbo on the other side of town at Delroy. And so you could easily end up with a job and end up with 15 or 20 people there. And so knowing how to manage that larger group, having a good idea of how you're going to allocate tasks and utilise everyone in a meaningful way. I was really lucky I'd spent the time in town because that gave me the skills to be able to do that quite comfortably when I was out at Dubbo. Addressing Trauma and Implementing Comprehensive Well-being Support Yeah. Speaker 1 So I'd be, I'd be curious to know, so you go out to, you know, whether it's a a really serious accident or there's been a bit of event, how do you kind of stay connected with people like like I guess around the world being making sure that your teen's OK and travelling OK. Speaker 2 Yeah, and, and, and particularly the station officer, you're keeping one eye out on that all the time. You know, you, you're looking at the operational performance, but then it's, you get back to the station and, you know, sometimes you'll just sort of know someone's not sitting right, someone's just a little bit clunky, or you pick up just a bit of a strange or an unusual dynamic between the people in the team. I think we've, we've come such a long way as a society talking about these things over the course of my career, but particularly in our organisation, we've come such a long way. I, I remember when I was a junior firefighter, we had a really bad crash on Parramatta Road in the, the inner West of Sydney, Year 5 dock. And I think there was something crazy like it was a truck and about 5 or 7 cars. And wow, there was a, there was a few people that died in that kind of two or three people died in a crash. But I remember we came back and the piss support and well being sort of team that we've got now with their their equivalent from 25 years ago or so. We're at the station and when we got back, no one spoke. Everyone was a bit awkward and I think everyone felt like they had to be on guard and not give anything away. Whereas yeah. Speaker 1 Thank goodness it's changed. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's right. Whereas that's a very different thing now to you're going to these things that are not normal. You know, we know that it's part of our job. It's the reality of the type of work we do, but it doesn't make them nice or pleasant or something that you're ever really comfortable with. You can. Speaker 1 Well, we're professional. They. Speaker 2 Are, yeah, that's right. And if yeah. And if you're not having those sort of, well, that was a bit yucky or I didn't really like that feeling, it's probably telling you that you somehow managed to get a bit desensitised. So I really, when I'm talking with our firefighters, I really want to make sure that they're very aware of the fact that we want you to reach out like I what I want for my firefighters, I want them to have a really great career and to finish the job in while talking to recruits. So hopefully it's, you know, 30 years past for them. I want them to get to the end of that ride and still be in really good condition physically and mentally and to be able to look back on lots of fond memories. And the way you're going to get there is looking after yourself physically, keeping fit and active, but also from a mental health and well being perspective that you're not trying to bottle all that stuff up and carry it with you for 30 years. And I talked to them about like, we went through the Black Summer bushfires 2019-2020. And a few months later, I was probably sort of halfway through 2020, I found myself getting really frustrated and just, I wasn't myself and took me a little while to work it out. But what I realised, I was writing up my statement for the coroner's inquest and I was documenting, you know, and it felt. That campaign, I mean, it's we call it Black Summer, but it started in July and finished the start of March basically. So it was the summer plus. And there was times in there where you thought it was never going to end. And then, you know, going through the statement in the series of events and the key decisions and actions that have been taken, you know, it starts to sort of turn it back up. And I realised, hang on, that's why I'm feeling a bit yucky. And then I went and, you know, engaged and got, we got a well check programme. So I went to one of the providers who does the well cheques for us. And you know, so but it's important that we're talking openly about those those things because if I'd just sort of tried to keep ploughing your head well, I wouldn't have been my best. I probably would have been, you know, really rubbing everyone up the wrong way that I was dealing with. And then it's, you know, at a personal level, it's not good for your own long term well being either. Speaker 1 I think that's one of the biggest reasons why I just feel so honoured to meet with you today. These are the things that I've really loved and admire about your leadership because I see your posts on LinkedIn about out there talking to the new people that are joining your organisations. And I love how you had those conversations with people because that's your commissioner. And if he's saying, look, it's OK that we're going to go through these times and they experience things that are really quite, you know, pleasant, and it's OK to say, you know what? I'm actually not OK and actually need help. So thank you so much for championing that space. I think it's really, really important to hear that from the top. Speaker 2 Yeah, and I think it starts to set realistic human expectations of our firefighters aren't robots, they're not machines. They're, they're people that are dealing with all the things that everyday life presents to us anyway, let alone some of the traumatic stuff that we might deal with out the road when we're doing our, our operational work. So let's be honest and open about that. And I think it's been great to see that change happen in the organisation over the years and some of it more recently. But just the types of support that we've got for our people now as well. It's, there's so many options and different ways to access that, that I hope also that that also makes it different for people as they're, yeah. Because sometimes people actually a little while to realise you might need some help or that some things aren't going right. And if you're not getting the prompt from one of your colleagues or your your manager, people can sort of bumble along for a while before they get to a realisation, whenever that is. There's lots of different services there that they can tap into to get that assistance. And the sooner they can do that, the better. Speaker 1 Is there anything that you would highlight, you know recently that has really enhanced the the well being? Is that OK? If you might want to just mention one or two things that. Speaker 2 Oh, look, I think some of the, you know, we've put a deliberate investment over the last few years into some of these areas. And so trying to round things out so that we've got the, the full, full suite of, of options available. I think we know that, you know, firefighters are most comfortable talking to other firefighters. And, you know, our peer support programme has been running for, yeah, I think it started just a year or two before I joined as a firefighter. So that's the best part of over 30 years. Speaker 1 Wow, it's been going that long. That's. Speaker 2 Incredible. But we've been able to beef it up and give the people that are our peer supporters, you know, making sure they're trained and supported. We're not turning them into the counsellors or psychologists or anything. Yeah, but they're a really good first connection point to say hey. And from a firefighters perspective, they're quite often the first person that they would want to talk to because it's it's not intimidating. It's a familiar phrase. Speaker 1 If I love that, yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah. But what's the things that have improved that I've sort of really like is the fact that we're then layering that with well being officers and a well being coordinator, you are helping to bridge that gap. So it's not just a one touch and that's it, but then connecting them to all the other layers of care that are available and support. And that with our occupational Sykes as well means, you know, we just start to get the these sometimes complex issues that people are dealing with. Well, we've not just got a simple one stop shop, we've got a fairly comprehensive suite of tools that we can provide to people to help them navigate the challenges they might be facing. Breaking Barriers and Celebrating 40 Years of Women in Fire & Rescue That's amazing. Well, it sounds like you've got incredible initiatives, so great work and thank you for your leadership around that too. I'm just mindful of the time, but I'd really love to talk about women. Speaker 2 Yep. Speaker 1 I'd love for you to talk about that. How do we encourage more? Well, let's have a look. I get, I guess, at the scope of women now. And how do we encourage more women to to work in Fire Rescue? Speaker 2 Yeah, and I think it's still, there's still a bit of myth busting to be done, Michelle. I think at our last recruitment, my wife showed me a comment on the social media and our negative comments about women being firefighters. And what concerned me was it was, it was not firefighters that were saying it, it was just members of the public, but it was other women saying it that like, I wouldn't want someone to come and rescue me, you know? And I'm like, gosh, you know, And so it grounded me, I guess, to the extent that it's still a big problem in the broader societal perceptions and, you know, yeah, it. Speaker 1 Wasn't you say that goodness OK, because. Speaker 2 You think, goodness me, you know, for all the work that we've, we've done as a society and women have done to sort of, you know, champion their opportunities to see other women making those negative comments. So disappointing because the strength of our organisation is the capability of our people. When anyone who's wearing the uniform as a firefighter, they've all demonstrated they've got the goods, they've all met the same, the same levels and everything like that. So it's a great story to tell because the, the women that we've got are absolutely phenomenal, you know, and they're the best of the community, best of society. So you don't. We need to just keep telling the good stories and we've got so many good ones to celebrate. Last year was 40 years since women were able to become firefighters in our organisation and so we're able to celebrate that. We published a book and about the Trail Blazers and it's small team spent a few years in the lead up writing stories and collecting all the stories and they they focused on not only but a lot of the first. So you know, the first four women that joined, the first female retained firefighter that joined the people that were the first ones to get promoted and get specialist qualifications and all those sorts of things. I guess the thing for me is I never thought anything different of it. One of the best bosses. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 OK, that I had as a junior firefighter was one of the first four women to join the organisation and who was then one of the first women to get promoted to station officer. And Dawn Maynard, she was she's retired now. She. Speaker 1 Was absolutely. Speaker 2 Wonderful operator, but it's just that it's just a non issue, you know, like she's the woman I knew she was, but I didn't really think about it as being an issue because she was always just very capable and genuinely say one of the best station officers that I ever worked for. And so these are the the really good stories that are there. And it was great for us to get that captured for a historical record in in the book. But we're gonna begin you getting it out there. Yeah. Speaker 1 How do we get a hold of this book? Speaker 2 Oh, we can get you, get you a copy and probably even connect you up with the team. It'd be really good one for you to talk to you, whether it's I'll. Speaker 1 Be your biggest supporter. This is incredible. Speaker 2 Yeah. And what stood out was the amount of support that the women had and if it particularly in the context of the Trail Blazers that they were doing things for the first time, but all of them mentioned the support they had from their male colleagues. And so I think in terms of. Speaker 1 That's a powerful statement, that. Speaker 2 Ageing perceptions and encouraging other women to join the organisation now is for people to realise what a supportive organisation it can be. Yeah, definitely. And Yep, at times we'll have people who don't do the right thing or say the wrong thing. Yeah, we deal with them. But overall, there's a heap of people there that just want to see we all do well when everyone's succeeding or when everyone's doing well, that's when the organisation flourishes. And so it there is that support there for people. And I guess it, it's such a different sort of job that a lot of women, if they're working in in other fields, might not ever think about it as I could do that. But there's so much that each person brings. I think one of the strengths of our organisation is the diversity of backgrounds that people bring. And because the myriad of different calls that we end up with end up going to as firefighters, we could spend our whole lives writing rule books or guidance documents and still not cover it all. But where you've got people from all different backgrounds. So whether you've got someone who used to be a teacher, someone who used to be a nurse, someone who might have, you know, worked in a in a trade, but you put all that mixture of people together and between them, pretty good chance they can nut it out and have some experience from before to draw on. And so, you know, we need there's physical skills, but we need those other skills as well that to enrich our organisation. And, and so I encourage women to consider it as a really good career. And it's lovely to see some of our women now starting to get up to more senior levels. So one of our assistants, commissioners, Cheryl Steer, she started just before before me and she's gone all the way through and she was one of the authors of the the Trail Blazers book. And it's been great to share that journey with, with Cheryl all over the way as well. A Call to Service and Gratitude for Emergency Responders That's. Speaker 1 Incredible. I'm so I'm solo on this book. Oh my goodness. I'd love to absolutely champion that and be a real driver of getting more people into emergency services, especially Fire and Rescue. I'm just mindful of time. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. But I'm really impressed with not only your leadership, but the great work that you're doing, especially around, you know, supporting women, but around well being, work out, safety and well being. So I'd like to personally thank the Commissioner for joining us today for sharing a small part of his leadership journey with us. I'd also like to thank him for his service to our community and reminding us of the importance of leading with kindness, integrity and courage. So I want to dedicate this podcast today to all who serve in New South Wales Fire and Rescue. Thank you for supporting, for listening to the podcast today, in supporting my work as founder, as she inspires me, women at work in my advocacy across the country. So thank you everyone for joining us. Take care.