She Built a $100M Fashion Brand In Stealth (Hiding From Her Parents)! Shark Tank Star and ShowPo Founder, Jane Lu

Fashion seemed like it's for the elite. It's for the rich, eastern suburbs, older woman that is connected. So I had the perfect job. I was making a full-time salary. My Asian parents were super proud. All of a sudden, I was unemployed, in debt, a failure. And she said, "Look, Jay, nobody shops online. "We need to fold the business. "We need to shut it down. "We're an over a hundred million dollar business." - You would have one of the strongest personal brands for business in Australia. What is it about personal branding and content that people wouldn't realize? - You gain this control. Like, you don't go there seeking opportunities. Opportunities come to you. The best moat that you have for your business is your brand. The moat around that is your personal brand. Wow, the whole world is your customer. And the thing is, I grew up in China and then I moved to Australia when I was eight. Actually, let's go right into the negative. I think it gave me a real chip on my shoulder. I finally told my parents that I quit my job and it was two years after I actually did quit my job. It made this big sacrifice to immigrate for me. I was able to, like, actually just let them fulfill this, like, ultimate immigrant dream of actually paying them back and letting them retire earlier. - But I noticed in your team, you've got a lot of young, I assume, Gen Zers. What do you think people don't understand about that generation? Welcome to To The Fat. My name is Frank Grief and I started this podcast after I sold a business for 180 million with my two brothers. It's part of my mission to raise a million dollars for Children's Cancer Institute by writing a cookbook called Eat With Purpose. In this series, I'm going to bring different types of founders on for you can share in their journeys and their lessons and insights. I'm also going to bring on guests who are in the middle of scaling their business. I want to make sure the challenges are relative to you and make sure you can take insights that you can use in each and every day in your business. I hope you enjoy. Jane, what do we need to know about your early years that made you the person you are today? - Ooh, okay, so I grew up in China and then I moved to Australia when I was eight. So I think like one of the things that gave me, actually let's go right into the negative. I think it gave me a real chip on my shoulder to have come here feeling, to have grown up feeling really like different, not speaking a language. We also grew up really poor. To be fair, I didn't even realize we were poor. You know, you have that moment when you're like, oh fuck, I'm so much poorer than the other kids, but you don't realize straight away. And I think that makes you kind of want to work harder. It makes you want to prove yourself. So I think that's kind of shaped the person I am in a way. And ironically, like I've always grown up wanting financial stability more than anything because we didn't have it. And then me thinking that that would come in the form of a corporate job. So I was always going home for a corporate job, which I tried and realized it wasn't for me. - What was the job again? I know you've talked about it a few times. - Yeah, I worked at KPMG in auditing and then I was in Young and Corporate Finance. - Jesus. - I was super dry. - Oh my God. - So worried. - I can imagine. - Not for me. - And for those of you-- - Sorry, no offence account is out there. We need you. - And you know, what I'm always conscious of when I have these conversations is, you know, you've told the story before. So the last thing I want to do is just like, yeah, just tell me the story. But for those that don't know, do you want to give us like a little snapshot of-- - What's the LDR? - Yeah, what is showpo and how'd you come about with it? - Showpo is an online fashion store. Focusing on fashion for young women and women like me, young and hard to, you know, whatever. Anyway, so fun, affordable, on-trend fashion and across many categories, across many sizes. And it's all about confidence and making you feel good. So that's the business. And so my background is I worked in corporate, as I said, and I all of a sudden realized that I hated it. You know, thinking that, I grew up thinking this is, you only realize you have one path. Like, you know, I immigrated from China and most people who have Asian tiger parents, my parents aren't even that bad, but tiger parents or just immigrant parents or just tiger parents in general, realize and probably know that can relate to the fact that they probably have a few job options. Doctor, lawyer, accountant, actuary. Anyway, you don't even think to go outside of that route. So anyway, got the degree, got the high school mark, got everything that my parents possibly could have ever wanted for me, which, you know, they literally left their jobs in China and sacrificed everything for me. They came, you worked in factories, worked as cleaners, worked on the minimum wage so that they can put me, you know, to get me to where I am. And then I realized I hated it. And then my friend came to me and she was like, "Let's start a pop-up store." And I was like, "Hmm, if I was..." And I did start to have this entrepreneurial bug that started to grow in me. But then I was like, on fashion retail? Like, no way. Like, fashion seemed like it's for the elite. It's for the rich, Eastern suburbs, older woman that is connected and knows anything about fashion. Like, I didn't even... Like, what was your high school job? Working at a pizza shop. That's right. I was working at McDonald's and then I worked at a pub, you know, at uni. So, like, I was only working in a hospital, never in retail. Never really had that much of an interest in that. No passion for fashion. Oh, and so when she said, "Let's open a pop-up store," I was like, "That's so random. I don't think we can do it." But then my theory... My thing to... My, like, philosophy, one of them is, like, if you don't have a better idea, just go with the one you've got and then pin it. So we're like, "All right, let's do it." We open up these pop-up stores, start a stocking from emerging designers. So, basically, it sounds nicer than it is, but basically go around to the markets, handing out business cards, being like, "Hey, do the stock with us." And then we managed to get, like, 50s of people to stock with us. I don't know how. Open up these pop-up stores. Make a classic mistake that most entrepreneurs make when they start, that they don't value their time. So then they think they're, like, break even or slightly profitable, but it's like, "No, you're not." Like, there's an opportunity cost of your time and the salary that you can be made. Making that you're not factoring in. Anyway, it was a terrible business, but it really showed me how much I loved, like, creating something. And it made me realize that that's what I would want to do as a hobby, even if I didn't have it as a job, right? Anyway, so then we were doing for six months. It was getting used to PR. It was building kind of this, like, buzz momentum, but it was not, it was still just breaking even or loss-making. And then she was, like, coerced. I say, at the time, as a 20-something-year-old, I was like, "She had coerced me into quitting my job." It's definitely me. I think I was like... I think I knew that I was really bad at accounting and they were going to fire me, and I was like, "I better quit before they fire me." Anyway, so in this young moment, I decided to quit my job because it was also in the middle of the global financial crisis. I'm like, they're firing people, so it's time to go. Anyway, quit my job to work on that business full-time. I know you wanted a TLDR. I'm going really deep into it. But anyway, so then I quit this job in this, like, so long-suckers kind of way. I was like, "Bye. I'm going to start my business. It's going to take off." And then I spent that first month building that into an online store, which was so novel at that time. - Yeah, that's like cutting edge back then. - Yeah, this is 2010. At this point, I hadn't even shopped online yet. I remember I made my first ASOS purchase, like, three months after I opened my own online store. That was my first purchase. Anyway. And then so I started building this website on Wix, and then we had, like, almost 1,000 SKUs in my parents' garage. - Jesus. - I took photos on everything on myself. I went to the Canon ZG cam, uploaded it manually. Coincidentally, my business partner went on holidays for that month. She came back and I was like, "Oh, my God. Okay, let me show you this website." "Let me show you what's going online." I didn't even know the word "pivoting," like, the term, like, the business term "pivoting." It's like, "We're essentially pivoting. We're going online. Here's all the reasons why it makes sense." And she's like, "Look, I'm sick of this broke startup life. I want to get... I've been secretly looking for a job. I'm going back to the corporate world." So she refused to, and I was like, "Come on, look at the website. Let's just give it what... Let's give this a red hot go, 'cause I've just quit my job." That you coerced me into it. Anyway. And she was like, "Look, Jay, she looked me straight in the eyes." And she said, "Look, Jay, nobody shops online." And then so she was like, "We need to fold the business. We need to shut it down." And I did not have the confidence at that point to do the business by myself. So then that was it. That was the end of the business, and I was, like, literally devastated. So all of us, like, thinking about it, like, a month ago, I had the perfect job. And this job was like... My EY job, a thousand people applied for it, six people got it, and I was the only girl. Like, it was a hard job to get into. So I had the perfect job. I had a promising side hustle. I was making a full-time salary. My Asian parents were super proud. All of a sudden, I was unemployed, in debt, a failure. And it was in the middle of the global financial crisis. So no one was hiring. I couldn't even get another job. So I did not know what I was doing. And the worst part was, I did not even tell my parents I quit my job, because I figured that I would tell them once I started. I was like, "My only goal in business was to make enough that I could be making more than my corporate jobs so I can be like, "Look, I'm doing this. At least I'm happy." I never got there at that point. And so I was like, "Holy shit, what do I do?" So then I just kept pretending to go to work in a suit. And that was the start of my show-pro journey. I heard that story. As I was doing the research, I heard you were catching the bus every day with your mum. Oh, yeah, that's the thing. My mum also worked, so I had to get up early every day, put on this, like, full corporate suit. And then because my mum also worked in the city, I had to get the bus into the city with her. Did you wait around all day and then get the bus home, or did you just get back on the bus at home? I didn't finish work at the same time, so I started off going to... Going to cafes, because, you know, you have this romanticised idea of sitting in a cafe, running down business ideas and strategising. And then I started doing that, and they were like, "Oh, do you want to order something else?" I'm like, "I have no more money." So then I started going to the State Library, which is where I would go to study for a high school uni. And I was like, "This really feels like I'm going backwards." And then so I just, like, kind of peered off, wanted to back home. But then I got a job as a receptionist at a laser hair removal clinic. So despite just... And it was, like, a really demoralising job, because the job was the boss of such a bitch. The learning there was, she did teach me what not to do as a boss. I love that. But I do always give people the advice, like, "Do what I..." No, do what I say, not what I do, because I tell people, "Don't quit your job. "Don't quit your job at a women like that." 'Cause I had to go crawling back and get, like, a casual job anyway. Like, cash is king. So keep that runway as much as you can. For me, it definitely helped me, like, if it... Thank God it was a GFC. Thank God I quit my job, because if I just stayed... Otherwise, I would have stayed in corporate. And I would not have piv... Like, it would not have driven me to look for the next opportunity, which is what led to Chopo. So I did get lucky. But I feel like that's quite rare. So I wouldn't recommend it. Fair. And so, I mean, you've now opened up the kettle, like, now I'm deeply intrigued, right? We're deep. We're deep. We're deep in the journey. So tell me, you've gone back to work, then did you, like, reignite the side hustle, which became Chopo? Like, what's the connective tissue? Yeah, so I basically had this one friend that had, at this point, only one friend that had a business. So then, I think it was, like, selling, like, milk powder to China or something. Something brilliant. And I was like, "Anyway, so I was like, I'll go and just..." I thought I'd go and ask him for advice, but I think I was probably secretly trying to get a job from him, because, you know, no one else is hiring. And then so I could learn from him. And then so I was, like, asking him this, and he's like, "You know what, actually, I have a friend "who also really wants to sign an online fashion store." And I'm like, "No, no, no, no. "I don't really want to sign an online fashion store, "because, like, I don't know anything about fashion. "I clearly suck at it. I just failed." And then he's like, "No, no, no, go meet her." And then I was like... But then I realized, I'm like, "Well, I can't keep trying to, like, ask..." Like, you can't ask someone for a favor, like, you can kind of ask someone for a favor or for advice. The advice they give you, you're like, "No, no, no, no, no. "What about this other thing?" So I'm like, "Fine, let me just go meet her. "When it doesn't work out, I'll come back to him "and kind of more probably formally ask for a job." Anyway, so I met her. We just hit it off straight away. And so she already had experience in fashion. She already had a business. And I was surprised that she even wanted to work with me, but it's because I had this whole, this, like, bullshit PR that they gave me all this credibility. So she did want to work with me. So after meeting just a few times, over a few too many glasses of red wine, we came up with a name and concept for the business, Joe Pony. And that night, I came home and just... I was, like, still a bit tipsy, and I just started building the website. And I was, like, in case it was alcohol talking, I wanted to show her that I could do it. I wanted to either show her, like, "Wow, she's a real guy. "She is gonna get it done." Or it'd be too awkward for her to pull out. And I'm like, "I've already got this business." And so, and yeah, so that's how I started. And then so she had contacts in the industry for suppliers. I, from the first business, had contacts in, like, models and photographers. And so that weekend, we did a photo shoot. And then within the week, we made our first sale. And that sale was to one of the models' friends who saw a Facebook post. But it proved two months after my ex-business partner said that nobody shops online, that people, in fact, do. - I love that. - So... - And where are we today with show posts? So talk to me a bit about, obviously, things you're comfortable with in terms of, like, scale and size, just for the audience to understand. Like, revenue, things like that. Whatever you're comfortable with, of course. - But for so long, our goal was to get to 2020 by... Sorry, to get to $100 million by 2020. And we were on track for that. And then COVID hit. - Oh, yeah. - Anyway, so we hit it in 2021. - Nice. - And then so it's been growing since then. And I don't really talk about, like, sales. You know, I don't want to give, like... - Yeah, of course. - Here's my, like... Hey, y'all competitors, here's our, like, P&L. But basically, I think the thing that I lead with is, like, we're an over $100 million business. - Incredible. Amazing. And how big's the team size? - We are... Well, this is the crazy thing. Like, it's... We are over 100 people globally. But even in our office, like, before... We were, like, at twice... We're, like, much, much bigger. Twice the profit as what we were before COVID, when we thought we were almost empire-building. And we didn't... We didn't understand efficiencies. Actually, we had... I think people like to empire-build in their own teams. I probably did, too. The leaders that we had probably did, too. And we just had these big, fat teams. So we had maybe, like... We would have, like, 60, 70 people in our head-offers. And now we have, like, 40. - Incredible. - And we're making, like, twice as much. - I love that. - Yeah, that's crazy. - I think one of the challenges we're going to hear you talk about that is this, you know, even when I ask the question, I sometimes feel bad, 'cause there's, like, some people, like, will romanticise. You know, it's like, "Yeah, how big is the business?" "Oh, we've got hundreds of team members." And we're like, "Wow!" But actually, like, that's not necessarily a metric for success. - Especially when COVID hit, you're like, "Oh, headcount." - Yeah, yeah. - "Oh, like, full, like, fixed costs." - Yeah. - I remember, like, looking... When we first got our warehouse, which is huge, people were... A lot of people, like... People come in, and they're like, "Oh, my God, your warehouse is, like, a bunny." And so I'm like, "Yeah." And, but then COVID hit, and I was like, "Holy shit. "Look at all this stock sitting there." - Yeah, fuck, it's like a bunny. - Yeah. - Um, I would have to say, Jane, I'm not just saying this 'cause you're sitting here, you would have one of the strongest personal brands for business in Australia, like, for the stock. - Oh, thank you. - So, so, firstly, that's up to you for doing that. What is it about personal branding and content that people wouldn't realise? - Look, I think it's... (SIGHS) These days, I mean, I think everyone probably does know this, that it is more important than ever. I think once you have built a personal brand, you gain this control. Like, you don't go there seeking opportunities. Opportunities come to you. And it's the best way to growth hack into... For your business. It is the best way... The best moat that you have for your business is your brand. And then one of the things that makes your business unique... And the moat around that is your personal brand. It's almost like, you know, I feel like you could be... You know, these days, there's international competition. There's AI. All these things are... You know, you could feel like the world is against you. But having a personal brand, then you actually feel like, "Wow, the whole world is your customer." And all the opportunities are there for you. So, it is just so important. And the thing is, what's hard is, of course, it's hard and awkward and cringe to do your first content. But I think it's just like... It's all about just getting the content out there. And luck... And you've done a great job because you've... You know, we talked about this for our little pod swap. But you've only actually started this recently. Relatively recently. And it's come very naturally to you. And I think I got very lucky that I was doing YouTube back in the days because... And doing fashion content just because I was too tired as to pay for models sometimes. I'm like, "Oh, we'll just start doing it." And it's... I didn't even remember back in... Actually, back in high school, a friend and I used to have... Back on the camcorder, we used to make skits. Yes. And we... And it would go to an audience of two, just us. And we would just be doing it for fun. It's like the... We're like the OG TikTokers. And on the one hand, I'm like, "Man, TikTokers." If we were doing TikTok there, we'd be fucking huge. But then I was like, "Thank God no one saw that." So, I'm a bit torn. I'm a bit torn. But I think it's just about getting started. I think it's all about understanding, like, what is it like? And not everyone is... Because I think people are like, "Oh, it must be easy if you already have..." Because you can lead with... I sold a hundred pieces for $180 million. And I can lead with, "Oh, I've sold a business for..." Sorry, my business makes over $100 million or whatever. But I think it's like, think about the thing that makes you unique. And it could be anything. It's like, what do your friends come to you for advice for? What do your colleagues, if they're going to seek out your help, what is it going to be for? Like, oh, what do you want it to be for? What is something that you can just, like... You know, talk, like, endlessly about? And I think just, like, double-double down on it. And I think the thing is, it's like, no one really is really an expert on... Not hardly. Look, think about all the people that are online. A lot of them don't know shit. Yeah, that's a hundred percent. You know? And a lot of it... There's not much original content out there. It's all about, like, putting your own spin on it. But there's not many original thought. And I don't think you need to be coming up with... Like, no one is a fucking philosopher. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know. Just, like, pick a thought and then just, like, be vulnerable and share how it relates to you. So even on that, like, that piece there, you said, "We both met, you know, we can lead with these numbers." It's really interesting. Sometimes it's a blessing and a curse. Oh, my God. Sometimes it's like, oh, my God. It's so much easier if you're starting and you could... It's... 'Cause now you have to, like... You also don't want to do things that are too small, right? Like, as someone of the business of a bigger size. And I almost think it's easier to be, like... Have... To be, like, showing the hustle, showing the grind. Showing the DIY. Or the relatable stuff. The relatable, you know? And now I'm, like, so I'm just sitting here, you know? So there's, yeah, there's so many things you could do. I sometimes look at the small business and I'm like, "Ooh, if I had that business, here's what I would do." And how much time do you spend on it, like, with you and the team? God, this is... Oh, my God. So I've got my friend girl sitting here. She's looking... Shut up! She's, like, the... She's looking at me like my stage... She's like, "Um, I don't know. What do you think?" You recognise I spend 12 hours a week on content? Jesus. I believe that. Yeah. I believe it. So, you see, when I hit myself back with the question, which is what don't people realise... Yeah. ..I think the game of content is from afar. You look at a video, you're like, "Oh, how hard could that be?" Yeah. And I'm not trying to scare people away, but, my God, like, it takes time, energy, reps. And it's like, you know, I think we talked about this on your podcast. It's like, it's almost reset. You know, like, the game of business is very compounding, where it's almost reset, where, like, you put out a bad video and it's like, "Bow, bow!" You're like, "That sucks. You suck." And you're like, "Pah!" So, yeah, 12 hours, I believe it. I'd spend, yeah, I'd spend close to that. But I think it's like, and then don't let that scare... I think I don't want to let that just scare people who are like, "How do I find 12 hours in my day?" But I'm like, "You have time to take a shit? "You could post something, not, you know, "I mean, you could post something while I'm taking a shit." Generally, I'm like, you could go online, find a quote, write a thought about it and post something, right? You could, like, if you've got time... You don't have to start at 12 hours. You don't have to start at 12 hours. You can get there. And I think for me... Sorry, just to go back to my thought about, like, how it's easier when you're starting to do something, 'cause I think it's actually easier to be cringe when you're smaller. 'Cause I have friends who have more established businesses, and I have been, like, hounding them about doing content and building their personal brand since when they were smaller. And I feel like now it's almost harder for them now that they've got a more established business. And the thing is, had you started... Like, if you were to have started earlier, you've then clocked 10,000 hours like the whole Tiger Woods thing, right? You've clocked all these hours. Now that you are more established, now that you can be more, like, Polish, you still want to be like... I mean, I think you never want to be too polished, but you still want... You have crafted this skill a lot more, you know? It's 100% true. It's the... I think one of the biggest challenges, and this we had, like, sold the business. "Okay, I'm starting Instagram," and then you do it. And then, like, just 'cause you did this thing well, doesn't mean you now do this thing well. Now you're gonna suck at this thing. And I'll tell you, you've got to eat a lot of humble pie to be like, you know, you're putting out a video and you're like, "Oh, thanks, seven people. My mum twice." You're on two vices. You're like, "Oh, my God." And I think I see this, yeah, you see this trap a bit. You know, there's some people out there who spend lots of money on followers and lots of money on butt farms. - 'Cause I think it's that ego... - Butt farms. - Butt farms, not butt farms. - Oh. - Calm down, Jane. You know what's a really interesting one? It's kind of shifting from the content, 'cause I think we share this, but I'm curious in your opinion. There's this rhetoric around about Gen Zers, and Gen Zers being lazy and, like, you know, they just want everything blubble, handed to them. But I notice in your team, you've got a lot of young, I assume, Gen Zers. What do you think people don't understand about that generation? - Fuck, I wish I knew. I mean, I think it's hard to generalise Gen Zers. I think from a consumer point of view, I wonder if they followed trends more than we ever did. And I find... I find... I don't know if it's just because I was, like, just late to trends when I was that age, and I was just, like, not very trendy as, like, a youth. But I feel like these days, as a consumer, like, they're so, like, everyone having a Stanley Cup and everyone doing the Hailey Bieber nails and everyone doing these trends. And I wonder if it's, like, more important than ever. In terms of, like, I guess from a team perspective, I think people are... OK, on the one hand, it's, like, I was lazy as fuck when I was working at KPMG, and it was almost a competition to see who... Like, I remember someone flexing that they went to the movies whilst at work, you know? Someone took a nap in the storage room. I spent all my time on Facebook, which is why I became so good at social media, just to have started a show-po. And I think you... So you're going to get that at any generation, at any age. I think what the Gen Zs these days have is, like, they probably expect more instant gratification sooner, which I understand, like, I know I now expect it. I want more instant gratification as well. I think the kids these days... I think they have grown up in a very, in a way, lucky generation where anything feels possible. And it's in the more of a employer economy. And so what I mean is, like... And I don't... Again, I don't know if it's just because I went through the corporate route, and it was very, like, a lot more doggy-dog, you know? Whereas, like, I feel like what I deal with now is, it is an employer economy, and you are fighting for the right staff members. So the work ethics that had to get instilled in me, work in corporate... I don't know if it's a corporate thing, that's the thing. The work ethics that had to get instilled in me, work in corporate, and the people that are... You see that, come from a corporate or a bit older, are different. I think they expect a... When you get someone fresh out of school, I guess they don't really... They have never had to deal with working in office five days that think if it's raining, they should just stay home. Like, you get those kind... But that's not everyone. I don't want to generalise like everyone, you know? So I think it's like very... I guess it's hard to navigate through, and I don't want to insult the Gen Zs out there, because most of my team are Gen Zs, and I think it's just about, like, any generation, fighting the hard-working ones, 'cause hard to deal with a lot of de-cared millennials and boomers at work as well. So there you go. Is that a... As a political way to say it as possible? That is so fine. OK, so there's a couple of threads that you touched on, which I couldn't agree more with. The idea of anything's possible, and through, like, the contents, that is... My big realisation was, as I started interviewing a couple of these very young, ambitious people, I was like, "Oh, wow, we were listening to the same content, "but I was just at, like, 25, but you were listening to it "at, like, 13." Yes, exactly. You were listening to about abundance mindsets at 13 years old, and so by the time you get to, like, 18, like, there is no kind of limits in your mind. The amount of times I heard these young people talk about, "Oh, what's the right word?" Yeah, you know, self-work. They're just enlightened at an early age. I hate to admit it. And I'm like, "My God, I had not even considered that once. "I was out in the city. I was having a good time. "I was at festivals. I wasn't thinking about self-enlightenment "just yet." No! And so it's, I think, you know, you can't generalise is correct, but the ones who are ambitious are incredibly ambitious. Yeah. And I think, you know, if you find the right ones and you can weaponise them, they are, you know, because they come with a blank slate, you know, you don't have to go and try and unwind baggage of all these other corporate jobs. It's like they are, like, good and ready to go. They use their high school as, like, pre-mental training to, like, get out there. So I think the people who have that perception provided you're looking at the right ones, completely misconceptions. Yeah. Maybe it's just, like, whatever they, whatever personalities they have, whatever, like, characteristics they have, the technology, society and technology just amplifies it. Yeah. It's like, you could have someone, so with chat GBT, if someone is already lazy, then it makes them lazier. But if someone is, like, knows, like, it's truth-sticking, like, "Okay, my five-year-old, "I don't want to talk about it." But he's literally, he's, like, he's, like, sometimes we're, like, cut, we're just, like, "I need a minute, right? You don't want to give him TV, "but you just need a minute." You're like, "Here, go talk to chat GBT." He's like, "Why is something sweet and something sour? "Like, what is the, you know, like, why is, like, "what is bigger than infinity? "Like, what is, um, what is the biggest thing, "like, in the universe?" I'm like, "Oh, my God." Like, you know, like, he'll just go and, like, use it to, like, learn and truth-seek. Um, and I think if you know, you know, it just amplifies, like, whatever they already have. 100%. I love that. What's bigger than infinity? I'm just watching. I'm just imagining him sitting there, spitballing with chat GBT. That's so good. Oh, he was just like, like, I was like, "Well, you know, there's no infinity in beyond." And he was like, "Wow." That's so good. Um, let's talk about Shark Tank for a second. Mm-hmm. Um, how did you get onto Shark Tank? Like, what was the series of steps that got you there? Okay, like, realistically, nothing. Like, they called me. So I got this email and it said, "Shark Tank's." And I was like, "Oh, my God, it's a scam-fishing email." You know, it was like, "And do you want my credit card "to buy, like, some Apple gift cards?" You know, like, I thought that's where I was going. And then... But I was like, "Oh, well, I looked up the email "of the person who..." And it was a production company, and I looked up and I'm like, "Okay, that seems real." And then we even... So we did a call and she's like, "Yeah, we want you." I'm like, "Really?" And then so there was no step I took. I didn't apply for anything. But, like, but the actual steps that got me there, you know, and I... 'Cause I look at the other people that got there, like the Sabri in the first year and Davey. You know, we're all people that have built businesses and we have, obviously, but we put ourselves as by making content and then building a personal brand. And I think... And then that's where they can see, like, "Okay, so this is what they stand for." And they, obviously, can speak on camera and people resonate with them. And I think those are the things, like, you don't... You know, you don't always do things because it has a direct result, right? And so it is just sometimes... Just go to the gut and do what you want and do what feels right. Love that. And there's been a good experience if I could enjoy it. Yeah, it's been amazing. What are kind of the biggest learnings from that? 'Cause it's such a different thing, you know, like, going from running your business to all of a sudden, you're in this room and from what I understand, furious pitching all day. Like, what are the learnings for you? The learnings for me... I mean, there's definitely, like, lots of just, like, the other shafts. But do you mean, like, the pitching? Yeah, just, I mean, yeah, I mean, I guess, like... 'Cause it would, I imagine, it really, like... You know, you're focused in the world of show-po, and it's very, you know, fashion. But now you get pitched all these different random, you know, bits and pieces and ideas from all these different sectors and seeing all these different founders. Like, is there learnings that come from that? Yeah, I mean, I think it's... I think the thing that I've realised the most... And this, combined with doing the podcast, I think the most important thing is, like, it's ultimately, like... Like, does the... Like, what is the... Like, what's the problem that this business tries to solve? Does the product solve it? Like, is it... Like, product marker fit? How important it is? And then, because often you could see an amazing founder, but they've just backed the wrong product. And the product is just, like, not that amazing, not that scalable. And they're just, like, flogging away at this thing. But the founder is so much bigger than that. And then you also find, sometimes, it's like, the product itself is great, but are they the right person to solve that problem? And they're just... Often, they're not. So, and I think that it's just literally those two factors. Finding a right investment is, is this the right product and is this the right founder? Like, is this the right problem to tackle? There's the problem, product-solver? And is that the right founder? And that's... That's easier than the sounds, but that's ultimately what it is. And I think one thing that, like, in terms of, like, invest... I almost find that, like, in terms of being on the podcast... Like, having my... Having your podcast, speaking into so many successful founders, I think sometimes founders... I don't know if it's, like, almost like having a baby when you just kind of... Your brain has a chemical that helps you forget about the trauma. Yes. Your wife must talk about this. But then it's like, maybe you... Like, do you glamourise? Maybe... Oh, you think fondly of the struggles, right? A hundred percent, yeah. Like, you talking about you and your brothers folding pamphlets with no air conditioning. Yes. And you're like, "That was a magical time." And I'm like, "Yeah." And I'm just, like, at 3 a.m., handing out flyers on the way back from the cross after a big night out, because why not? Anyway... Well, that was my point. Anyway, so you speak to founders on the podcast, and everyone is just so successful, and I feel like you almost feel like, "Wow, business is... "It almost feels like it's too easy." Yeah. And then you're like, "Not too easy." But you're like, "Wow, like, you forget about the struggles." Totally. I mean, you're seeing, like, one success after another after another, and you're like, "Oh, this is great." Yeah. You're like, "Oh, this is a vibe, this should buy us." You're not seeing all the, like, the wasteland of all the ones that get crushed. Yeah. But then actually going on chatting, and hearing some of the pictures, and, you know, there's people going to, still, like, selling at the markets and, like, struggling with sales and, like, talking about how hard it is. It does... It does kind of, like, remind you of, like, how hard entrepreneurship is. Totally. Which I know sounds obvious, but it is, um... It is quite... Not confronting, but it's a good reminder of that. I couldn't agree more. I think that, like, I've had to re-go through those learnings. You know, exactly like you're saying. You go through the journey. How many years into Chopo are you now? 15. 15, right? And so, like, it's kind of... You've got a couple of key memories, and, like, you've kind of glamorised them. You can't quite remember them. And then, you know, we have the same thing with Real Bass. Start it again. And at kind of the end, there's almost, almost like, I don't know, it's like almost like a guilt where you're like, "Oh, why can't like..." Everybody have kind of won in this exit or whatever. Yeah. Start it again. And then you realise, like, you know, for us, when we started, I thought, like, everybody would be like, "Oh, my God, "you guys have got this, you've done it before." And you go in and you're like, "Oh, wait, all these people "are doubting you." And you're like, "Oh, wait, this person was right." And you're like, "Oh, I remember now." Yeah, yeah. You're like, "Oh, like, everything's still against you." And you're like, "Ah." Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what it felt like. Yeah. And it's, like, all new sets of challenges. Yeah. 'Cause, like, there's more competition than ever. Yeah. You know, there's more knowledge out there. You know, back on, we would have started. It's like, how do you know what to do, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All that information is out there now. But then it's like, everyone else also has that information. Yeah. So it's hard, yeah. If you had to start a business tomorrow, can't be show-po, and you had to start again, like, what would you be doing differently? Ooh. I mean, I would do... I think I... I would know how to take more risks and go faster. 'Cause we definitely, like, took... Like, the business took almost over a year to get momentum. Once it got momentum, it got to, like, we went from a 60K run rate to a million-dollar run rate in five months. So, like, to be able to, like, just to, like... I want to get to, like, not do the first year... almost year-and-a-half of, like, slumming it. So get past that. I think focus more on, like, I think I would go... Definitely... I would... That was bad. I would try, like, I think I would try to start a business that doesn't require any staffing as much as possible. Minimal staffing. And then just, like, automate as much as possible. I, like, I definitely wouldn't want the next business not to be, like... I would love to, like... I don't... Yeah. I don't know. No, that's not bad. No, I mean, that's fair. Like, you're trying new... and trying new learnings. I'm not saying we don't like the people we're hiring. That's fine. But I think it's, like, I think I'm at a different age to not be, like, yeah. Well, I, like, that was one of my, like, the primary drivers for our next business. Like, the last one, we had 400 people, and Jack and I were, like, how do we... Yeah. We're, like, how do we do this with maximum 50? Or, like, amazing, what if it'd be, like, 20? You know, like... I feel like a sweet spot is, like, I think it's the time where the really nice number is 12. Yeah. That was, like, a nice little family. You can still have, like, a dinner table, yeah. You can, like, talk, yeah. And then you can, like, easily just treat everyone, 'cause it's like, the bill doesn't get too big. You don't have to try and move everyone. I was, like, I was much more generous back then. You know what? No, I'm pretty generous. No, but it's, like, it's so true. It's, like, literally so true. Like, we're taking the team out for steaks and stuff, and I'm like, "Oh, yeah." And the reason you can't do it when you're at that scale is 'cause, like, "Oh, let's have a steak." That's $40,000. You're like, "Oh, fuck." We're taking the business case for that. That's right, exactly. What's changed in your life since you had kids? God, well, so my biggest thing is, like, before I... So, kids and COVID happened at the same time for me. Beautiful. And then before that, I mean, I had really high... My risk profile was really high, and I really was just, like, quite brazen, feeling that there was no risk in the business. Things were growing, like, double growth figures year on year, like, it was just, you know... And honestly, it felt quite easy. COVID hit. I had kids. My risk profile completely changed. It became way more risk-averse 'cause now I've got a family kind of depending on me. Also, my partner joined the business. So then it's like, he didn't even have this, like, job as a, you know, other source of income. We were all, like, kind of really all in. Anyway, and then... And then also, like, we got, like... When COVID hit, we had all these party dresses, and then we made a few other bad business mistakes, and it just kind of all compounded, and we were just, like, sales. Just, like, I mean, the first day, like, COVID really hit, like, everyone's sales kind of fell off a cliff. But I just don't think ours picked up anywhere as... Oh, sorry. I don't think ours picked up anywhere as much as what other businesses did because of, like... And we just got... We had, like, we were over-started. We got into a bad discount cycle, and then so that just... At the same time of, like, kids and COVID, like, my... It just kind of changed my whole perspective on everything. And then I come back from COVID, like, back into the office. And it feels like the team that we have is, like, younger than the team before. And I feel much older, so that's also something. Actually, I'm, like, a generation. I'm officially... And then, you know, before, it didn't feel like a gen... It was a Gen Z millennial thing. Oh, yeah, there is. And now there definitely is. So I also feel older. Yeah. So risk profile changed. Feel older. And I think this whole, like, just having to really try to just value your time going... That's why I also think the business building a personal brand has been great, because I used to go to a lot of networking things, which I just don't have the capacity to do anymore. But now that you have your personal brand, like, that opens... You know, I remember I used to join these, like, entrepreneurs groups. And to get business advice. And I was like, "Oh, I was finding it. I couldn't find the time to do these monthly meet-ups and all that kind of stuff." And then one of the guys in it, he's like, "Jane, like, you've got a personal brand now. That's your role at Dex to the world. Just use that." You can pick up the phone and call anyone, so don't worry about it. Love that. That's good. I've got one last question for you, Jane. Mm-hmm. As you reflect on the journey you've had so far, what are you most proud of? I... I'm actually most proud of the fact that... OK, so, more on a material level, one of my most proudest things was when I finally told my parents that I quit my job. And it was two years after I actually did quit my job. So it was Father's Day. I took them up to the Sender Point Tower. And it was, like, their first find-out experience. And I told them. But the way I told them, I had to be extra, extra safe. So I was like, "So, I bought you guys a car. "I bought them a brand-new car. "And at this point, my parents have never had... "They've only had second-hand, like, old... "like, an old two-year-old camera-y kind of thing." And then I bought them a new BMW, the cheapest one. Like, a 50K one. You know, like, a brand-new BMW. And then I was also like, "P.S., I quit my job two years ago. "Also, as soon as I can, I'm going to pay off your mortgage." Like, I didn't have the money, but I'm paying off your mortgage. I, like, really sandwiched that. And they were like, "What? Like, how did you quit your job?" So they couldn't even believe it. So that was, like, one of my parents' moments that I could afford them. I could... Like, they took this opportunity... Sorry, they made this big sacrifice to immigrate for me. And I was able to, like, actually just let them fulfill this, like, ultimate immigrant dream of actually paying them back and letting them retire early and, like, just having a good life. And, yeah, it really is the immigrant dream. So that is one moment. And I think me, personally, you know, all I really wanted was to... It's not about, like, really what you have now. It's about, like, think about, like... Like, I feel like the 20s, the 20s, the 30s are such important years in your life. And instead of spending it, hating my job... And the thing about, like, working corporate is, I think I necessarily even hated it, but there was just such a culture of hating it. Like, it was cool to bitch about how much you hate accounting, you know? And I'm like, "Oh, yes, I hate accounting." Like, I didn't know I hated accounting. Anyway, and then so I could have spent my whole time hating it, hating my job, not having a purpose, and just being like, "It's a means to an end." But I was able to just actually, like, successfully shift... Shift my career trajectory to be able to provide myself, like, the best, like, 15 years possible. Like, you know, we talked about it. It opens your life up to so many opportunities that you wouldn't have anywhere... You know, the things that I've done are insane, and I can't even believe it, and I pinch myself. And I'm just... I guess a feeling of pride that I've done this, that I was able to do this, and, like... Yeah, and I guess also being a shark, like, that's so cool. So, three things. I love that, Jane. I love that you just... There's so many, and I want that. You know, that's the... When you talk about that, your face lights up, and that is... It's that moment there that I wish people knew about business. You know, it's that magic of the vehicle, like we talked about, of all these different things that you're experiencing in your life, and get to have that purpose and be proud of it. Jane, been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for joining me. Thank you. Thank you for having me.