Sharing the Spotlight: Lindsey Adelman and Gabriel Hendifar

You can kind of tell and works designed on a computer and you can tell when it's not, you can tell when it's come into the world because someone's really considered how their body relates to it. It's such a rush to work with people who are so amazing at what they do. That I want people to feel on the end. Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well-lived life. May in New York brings an onslaught of gallery openings, art fairs and trade shows, where the design industry comes together to discuss, display and well, drink. But despite all the events and gindigs, it's a rare thing for two designers, especially competitors, to share their thoughts not only about their own work, but each others. Today, I'm bringing together two talents that have made lighting design the bulk of their life's work. Together for a rare chat about the values and creative paths they've taken to achieving success. While technically rivals, their work is quite different but equally loved. And before I recorded today's chat, I had no idea the two shared such admiration for one another. My first guest hosted us in their Manhattan showroom called The Red Room and will be familiar to fans of this podcast. Gabriel Hendiff are of the brand, apparatus. His booming decade-old company is known for its highly considered lighting and is one of the hottest names around. But has also expanded into things like furniture and accessories. And like we discussed on a previous episode, he's inspired by his Persian heritage, his fashion references, and an unrelenting pursuit of perfection. We're joined by someone who has been instrumental in building the contemporary design scene in New York, and through her innovative and artistic practice, has inspired legions of designers. Gabriel included. Lindsay Allen, if you've picked up a shelter magazine in the past 20 years, you've seen her work that combines an industrial nostalgia, something she pioneered, with an utterly crafted and hand-blown appeal that has won her legions of fans. Most know her iconic branching bubble-shandaliers that have been copied widely, I might add, to her latest pendants called Overglow, where metal frames hold bulging orbs of glass. She's also elevated her pieces to collectible levels and has been a frequent exhibitor to fairs like Design Miami. I sat down with both Gabriel and Lindsay at the apparatus showroom to talk about how light inspires them to create their art, how the two of you each other's work, finding the creative frequency that makes it all possible, and more. Thank you guys for doing this. We've been talking about this for quite a while, so I'm glad to actually be here in this incredible space, which will be, well, it'll be taken beautiful photos for the print issue in the apparatus studio. In the red room, what technically, not in the red room, or Gabriel tell me where exactly we are. We call this a number of things. I would say right now, it's serving the dining room, which is how we design the space. We're at a burl wood table, and we're surrounded by mirrors, so we're infinitely reflected as we have what I think is going to be a metaphysical conversation. We don't often get into metaphysical conversations, but Lindsay Adelman. We're here to have this little moment, and to talk about some that's totally vital to life on earth, but also extremely intangible, and something people don't often think about, which is light, and the many ways in which it manifests itself from design and just the spirit also. But before we get started, I've known you for quite some time, going back here in the New York design scene, even though I just realized a few moments before we started rolling that I've been mispronounced in your last name. Gabriel, obviously, you're returning champion here on the Grand Tourist. One of our more popular episodes I might add of that season, which was, I looked it up, it was quite successful, of course. Tell me about Lindsay for the people that don't know you. Tell us a little bit about you and your studio. Yeah, I founded it almost 20 years ago, and I've been doing lighting in other ways since about 1995. So it's so pretty. I want to get into that. Yeah, which is wild to think about. And now my studio is, yeah, we're based in Manhattan, there about 20 people on the team, and I continue to make sculptural lighting. Yeah, I wrote an article about like, which was back then called the Brooklyn lighting phenomenon, for Monacoel many many months ago that I interviewed you for. And it was interesting to see how many of the amazing people in New York, especially in this kind of world, these before apparatus, that kind of everyone intersects. It's kind of like in fashion, everyone worked at Ralph Lauren at one period of time. And I think both of you now are kind of like these sort of nexus points for sort of American design, and especially for light. And Gabriel, I mean, people can listen to the entire podcast about you, but to give us a little bit of a penny tour of the. Sure, apparatus was founded in 2012. And you know, over the course of the last now 16 years, I've come to understand what I do as creating an envelope for human experience. It's really thinking about how to calibrate choices that create an environment in which I hope a certain kind of experience will happen. And lighting found me that was sort of my entrance into this world, this way of thinking about space. We make furniture, we make objects. And you know, I have to say and acknowledge as you said, I'm here because of the people in New York who showed me that this was possible. So sitting with you right now feels like a full circle moment because I was a little, you know, gay boy in LA going like how, you know, how do I, how do I make a thing for myself that I want to live with? And you really created such a beautiful way of expressing an idea through through light sort of through a whisper of form. And it's, you know, just such a such an honor to be here with you and talk about making light. And so how, how long have you guys known each other? Because I didn't actually know before we kind of explored this whole idea that you guys did know each other. Do you guys remember meeting or how long have you been connected to meeting you at the BDDW Weenie roast? Oh right. Like up in, up in that beautiful castle. Right. Maybe that was 10 years ago I would say. And you know, at that point, you know, I met you, but over the course of the years, you know, as we've sort of overlapped in each other's spheres, yeah, I feel like maybe, maybe even though we're not in touch all the time, I feel this sort of connection to the way you think about what you do. And that's just become more apparent over the course of the last two or three years. Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely a connection there without having to maintain it a lot. I feel like you and I are sort of while our work is specific and the way we approach it is quite different. Our sort of basic drivers, I feel like are very in sync. I agree. And I guess maybe I'm curious to ask you how you define those basic drivers and how you got to understanding that they were the drivers. And let's see if you could explain to people that don't know your work at all. Like how do you describe a lot of your work if you can and just sort of like the creative process that you take to kind of the my work. I do both. Sometimes I design lighting systems that are intended for mainly interior designers to be able to order standard models, but also a lot of my intention with designing systems is to give people like a kid of parts to play with. So designing for designers is a lot of my thinking and methodology and working with really sort of like very restrained components trying to distill down a formula in order to then create something kind of unexpectedly organic. And then I'm also making more and more work with the intention of being for the design gallery market. So that's like a very different way of thinking. I really love both and I'm still doing both. And yeah the branching bubble was our first collection and it's today still what we're known for most and is like continues to be really the foundation of the studio in many ways. And I remember visiting your studio back in the day kind of after branching bubble I guess or in the middle a little maybe post that point where it was super popular and it was sort of struck by your studio and your creative space and how much little lighting inspiration or our design inspiration was around us. It was really more about mood and about a feeling that somehow then got translated into glass and brass and things like that that I've never seen in the industry someone be copied as much I think as you. Like I can so many people kind of took your way of thinking about lighting and kind of like ran with it. But it all comes from a very different place. It does come from a different place. I think my work is sometimes I don't even really understand. It's self-expressive, but I feel like I am sort of capturing this mysterious essence of some sort that really moves me and if I don't have a choice, like when I envision something, I'm very compelled to realize it and see what happens in three dimensions. And it's actually such a great privilege to operate this way. So I can't really force things on a schedule, and I don't, and I treasure that. It's sort of like if there's an urgency for the work to come out, I give it away. That's so beautiful. I think my understanding of your-- or my impression, and very deeply held personal impression of your work, is that it feels like you are compelled to express this distilled truth. Like there's some essentialness. And then you cast it in brass and glass. It's the sort of this ephemeral spark that feels like you've frozen it in these noble materials. I really appreciate that. There is something that I aim to do, which is to create work that's not self-conscious, which is such a challenge because humans tend to be so silky. And so in doing that-- yeah, I guess it's sort of obvious to say something like I'm trying to get out of the way. I want to figure out another way of saying that. It's more like it's like it's balanced between being a really clear creative director, but also leaving so much room for this kind of power and force that is kind of scary sometimes and dark. And also just achingly beautiful, sort of like beyond us. And it's ironic, but I think a lot of the inspiration for being a lighting designer and working with light is darkness. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I agree. Yeah, I've found-- the reason I was excited to have this conversation with you is this beautiful privilege of being able to make things in this way. It's a thing that I always maybe imagined would be possible for myself. And so it feels familiar, but it also felt like this thing that felt so far away that I had to reach for. And kind of arriving in this moment where I feel like I've been given the gift of the right life at the right time, with the right-- all the right things, I'm really thinking about what it means to make light in all of the ways. So where does my compulsion to create an object that provides illumination come from? And then how do I take that seed and actually amplify it? What does it mean to do that in the rest of my life, in my community, in the world at large? And I feel like that's a thing that I feel deeply with you, right, is that we're responding to darkness. Yeah. That's right. Before we return to the program, a word from our sponsor, Lumens. Sourcing great design online can be a challenge. There are hundreds of incredible brands from around the globe. But finding all of these objects online can sometimes feel like an endless task. 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To source everything you need for a truly curated lifestyle, visit Lumens.com. That's L-U-M-E-N-S.com. (upbeat music) Take us a little bit into this idea of darkness and sort of really creating sort of like something out of nothing in a sense. But like, how do you, how does that idea of darkness kind of come into play? You guys both, as soon as, in Gabriel, you said it and it kind of sparks out at you guys both. - No, for Dan to let us take the rails off. - Well, that's what I'm saying. So why, why, why, why, why, when you said that, Lindsay, did you kind of go, oh yeah, of course. Like, what is it to someone like me and to maybe someone listening that has like no clue what you're talking about? (laughing) - It gets there, I mean, yeah, good, please. - Go off the rail, yeah. - I wanna hear it. - I wanna hear it. - I wanna hear it. - Maybe I'll start. I feel like we could both jump in. I, well, one thing that intrigues me is the darkness within us. So thinking about the darkness outside of us, right? It's all a reflection. We need to sort of own up to that. So I think this like endless journey struggle with internal harmony is a lot of my drivers. And so you're, it's, you know, it's, it's right, I guess psychological and emotional, but thinking about darkness one way of approaching it is like if we're all a house and we have 20 rooms inside of us, well, how many of those rooms have you never opened or even found the key? So if there's like a whole wing of the house that is not opened, you could consider that like some kind of internal darkness, like it needs a little, it needs some attention. It doesn't need like hate or rejection, you know? So with this kind of, yeah, so that kind of like opening the doors within you and letting the light in, that can like expand the creative process. It can come out in your work once you aren't afraid to go into those like rejected, like corners. Sorry, there's many ways of talking about it. - Totally, yeah, that really resonates with me. Like I've been connecting the idea of making light with just a very like basic primal, like for personally, I feel it very deeply, connection with the sun. And what it feels like, what you're describing to me is, what does it feel like to open the window and let the sun in on your skin? Like what is that warmth, that warmth of, of sort of presence in your body and a connection to source and a feeling of rightness, sort of divine rightness that you feel when you're in the sun. And really trying to connect the ways in which I understand what I do, which is to create these sort of like, you know, collages that hold light. Like that's kind of how I think about my approach to fixtures is that I understand this sort of like primal response to the beacon, like to the torch, to the fire in the cave. Like that idea that were attracted to this sense of warmth and illumination. And to use that to actually illuminate an idea or illuminate a group of ideas or to sort of tell a story or to use that warmth to shine on something. And in that way, project into the darkness, story or an idea that I hope will amplify joy and a higher vibration and an awareness, I think it's such, I think light is so much about awareness. You turn the light on to see what's in the room. So there is this, I think for both of us, this sort of like deep spiritual connection to, you know, I've always tried to capture this. And, you know, as an industrial designer, there's something that happens when you see the light fixture for the first time and it turns on. - Right. - And there's a, you know, it's simple, it's science. There's like a, that happens. And I think in that feeling is the possibility to shape emotion and shape consciousness. - Yeah, I would agree, that's beautifully sad. Even just how you started with the sun hitting one's skin is so visceral and amazing to think about like light having a physical quality to it. And we can't, it's, we don't know, we wouldn't say like, oh, here's the moment where it's hitting my skin, it's kind of like that space in there. And so there's something that's like you're saying very joy that's something to celebrate, but also you can't hide. - So how do you, so how do you respond to that darkness like in a, in a design way? Like what do you have a process, Lindsay, that you kind of, I mean, if other people are copying your work, then I'm sure they're copying a process in a sense where they must in some, in some point or if that's bleeding through. So you need to take people like perhaps through some of your newer pieces, like what the your latest piece that you just showed few weeks ago here in New York, can you just take us through and what that creator process is. - Yeah, sure. I think that there's something even the word process. It sounds like such a simple word, but so complex. So people are copying the way I manufacture, but they are cheating themselves of a process because my process has very little to do with how it's fabricated in the end, right? And I think that's how most creative people feel about their work. It's almost arbitrary what you choose in the end. I feel that way. It could be so many things. It could be a video, but it's a late fixture 'cause that makes more sense. And the manufacturing, I mean, I designed for industry. So it's so people, it's not a secret with how like a Y Connector is machined. I don't try to make it, yeah. Like hard to understand. The new collection, whatever will be hard to knock off because it's super challenging to manufacture, which we didn't necessarily plan, but like, wow, it's not easy. So yeah, there's cast, brass, frameworks, and there's sort of like four different frameworks with our rather like classical and silhouette, I would say. And then the glass that's blown into it becomes super, yeah, expressive and oozy and sort of. It looks like a, I mean, it's definitely hitting people out, it's sort of, you know, it looks like maybe it grew like garlic or something, but then it also looks like something pretty flashy or just like maybe if you saw like one sort of like one part that's sort of oozing out, but then you're seeing like five of them on one fixture and it's almost, there's something familiar and a little like unfamiliar disturbing that I think people are feeling. It's like over glow, just to kind of drop a name, but it's called over glow and it's sort of like, as you mentioned, it's sort of like a, there's like a wire frame and then the glass is blown into it and it kind of like oozes out a little bit like but cheeks and the thongs draft. Kind of like, you know, it's kind of like, it's so organic and so beautiful and it must be extremely difficult to make also. Right. It lives, there are some videos, I think, on your Instagram like showing people how it's made and how it kind of like the gravity kind of makes everything sag a little bit. Kind of like it looks imperfect, but it also looks very kind of unique and ever. You know that someone touched this with human hands. Yeah, yeah. There's, and there's something about developing work, you know, hands on that is so different than, you can kind of tell and works designed on a computer and you can tell when it's not, you can tell when it's come into the world because someone's really considered how their body relates to it in the space and and I adore collaborating with these like master craftspeople so metal workers and glass blowers. I'm a master of no craft, I'm on two hands, but it's like, it's such a rush to work with people who are so amazing and what they do. Michika, the glass artist and I have been working together for 25 years and yeah, it's just like amazing, unspoken, like back and forth and the work, you kind of, like I then I know what to do, like you will do some tests and then I can kind of see what it wants to be and I'll often, yeah, like shift the original direction to make sense for like the weirdest, most intriguing stuff that is actually like coming out and that I want people to feel in the end. - And let me ask a kind of a question from the outside, right? Like, are a lot of these concepts unique to light or is it about design? It just happens to be when you're working with light, it's more intense and more distilled, right? 'Cause you don't, the user doesn't necessarily touch the light. They have to sit on a sofa, touch, caress a chair or put things on a shelf, but a light is because it's not touched these concepts that you're talking about are sort of amplified. They're like really, they're the most acute when you work in light and that's why this conversation is so happening here in this world of light, but if I got two people here that work in, see office seating, that they would not maybe necessarily be like, yes, oh my God, it's about the sun. Like, when you're when your touch hits that cushion, it's just, oh, that's amazing. - Dan, you're answering your own question. - I don't think so. - Oh, well, welcome to the grand tourist. - Yeah, no, I think is that accurate, you think? - I think, I think, you know, I said earlier that this found me, you know, I grew up in a very sort of like Persian immigrant home. And in that kind of a setting, the icon of the rug on the floor, which was the soft thing that I, you know, got, that I literally like skin on wool. And looking up at this piece of jewelry on the ceiling, always, I mean, we lived in tiny little homes. There was always a chandelier and it was always sparkly and it always had to me, the presence in the room that made me feel like it was the center of the energy. And so I do think that there is, light is just a thing unto itself. I mean, it's literally the thing, biblically, it's the first thing, let there be light. Like it is literally the thing without which nothing else is felt. So I do, I think that there is this sort of like fundamental way that we can access these like very deep human emotions through light. And is there any kind of like aha moments, maybe, either of you have had in your career, where like it went from designing something using industrial parts and the connector and did it, to do, and then kind of went like, oh no, this is really about, this is where things are clicking when I'm thinking about the sun and this, with the mood and the light and the space and all that stuff. Is there any kind of like moment in your career or story you can tell maybe that we're this kind of crystallized for you? - I think it started with the woo woo sun stuff. So since I was like, - Oh really? Was that a parental thing? Were your parents like, - I kind of hid my art making really until my 20s-ish, you know. - What kind of art did you make? - I did, even when I was little would make costumes. I remember being a bunny and taping the teeth to my teeth. You know what I mean? You just like, I gotta get this done. Like things, and then when you're young, or you gotta say, trying to take art in high school, you can get very intimidated, right? Like the kids can do perfect portraits with the pencil. Like that was never me. So in a way I had this like bottled up fantasy of what an artist might be doing, or what it might look like in a messy studio. And so really took my first gotta degree in English from Kenyan and then worked at the Smithsonian. Like I really sort of like pushed this part way down of what would it be like if I used my hands and my body to make the work that I feel inside of me. It took me a while. So that kind of like urge urgency or like craving was there way before then I started to learn the skills of how to make something. So it's almost like it could find a path through these like very rigorous skill sets. Does that make sense to you? - Yeah, and did your era, who was the first time you showed it like design Miami and you were showing kind of like you kind of collectible universe period? - I don't remember. - It was a nightmare. - But I remember when I first showed work at Javits, for example, that was 2006. - But like that shift, was that, did that affect how you were being creative or was it just sort of-- - I think what you're asking is a little bit of like the beginning my work looked a certain way, right? Was that your saying like the branching system looked a certain way? - Well, I'm just thinking like in this sort of journey of how you've been creative and what your intent has been. And just what's in your heart. Like did the what came, it was kind of a chicken in a chicken or egg question. What came first, did you feel that need to be more emotional and that led to doing the collectible stuff? Or was it, you just did the collectible stuff and you're like, oh, this has been happening the whole time. - Yeah, you know how I would describe it is, it's sort of like, maybe I forced myself to have this like single-minded focus when I kicked off my studio, really to make a living, right? To for like practical reasons. And so I forced myself to focus, which is not easy, but like the whole time and you know, maintaining like sketchbooks and a ton of journals and ideas and working on things on the side that I really didn't have the option to do everything back then. And then I had my son a couple of years after. No, I had my spare time. sort of my company, a couple of when he was two. And so for practical reasons, the more unusual work didn't make it into the world. I really was helping and getting this thing off the ground kind of thing. And then as time went on, really had that-- it's sort of like the leisure, the privilege to have the time, space, and the resources from that foundation. Yeah, and then you can kind of do ridiculous-- not ridiculous things, but I'm like, yeah, I'll make a music video right now. And we'll practice every week that dance routine. And then I'm going to just throw everything I have into like making this song and the costumes and shooting. And it's sort of like you can't-- that's a sun option when you're first starting out. So it's a lot of practical reasons that the more unusual, maybe forms are coming out. Like the show at the Future Perfect in Meg called the Hardware Diaries. There was a lot of forms in there that were very different than my other work and a lot more expressive and sort of like a clash of elements because they don't need to serve a different purpose that the systems do. Sure. Yeah, I think my version of the answer to that question is that it comes at a point where I think you have the time to, as you were saying, open the doors to the rooms inside of you that you hadn't had the resources to illuminate. And so you're kind of-- you're still-- the work comes from the same place, but you have a different awareness of why. And so you get to turn those dials up. You get to understand that, oh, if I want to feel more connected to a certain idea, I can actually choose to turn this in a different direction because I have an awareness of where that's coming from. So I think a lot of that-- for both of us has come from a lot of deep introspection and arriving at a point in your life where you say, OK, I've done this thing now what? Like how do I turn this inward to go more outward? It just becomes a point where you have to do that. And just to kind of raise a kind of a slight parallel apparatus, you've also expanded into furniture outside of lighting and things like that. But it hasn't really-- how does that change anything for you? Well, I mean, I think it's important for me. And I think you would feel the same way. I kind of want to separate the idea of expanding my consciousness about how and why I make things to necessarily meaning making more or different things. Like the more collectible things are more emotional than the thing-- it's really not about trying to create categories of work that are responsive to different levels of emotion. It's actually having an awareness that-- which Lindsay, you have demonstrated so beautifully, like what it means to be both a merchant and an industrial designer and an artist and understand that all of these things are expressions of me and that I can bring to each of those problems. What does it mean to make something that's highly producible and we're going to sell like donuts? And I can bring the same awareness to that that I do the super bespoke like 20,000 hours of embroidery piece. They're different expressions, but they come from the same root. So it's less about how that expands what we offer and more about how we invest that energy in an appropriate way into each of these ways that we hope people are going to interact with what we make. And do you feel like right now that your cravings are less about the object and more about creating the world in which people can connect deeply? Or do you feel like they're in competition or they feed one another? I think they're one and the same. I actually think of what the work that I hope to make in my life is to create the containers within which I hope there will be a certain vibration of connection and to expand what that means over the course of my career. So we are very deeply invested. I'm very deeply invested in every micro millimeter adjustment on every piece of hardware we make. I'm literally reviewing each of those things as though we're crafting DNA. It's that important. And I want to feel when I sit in this room with you that that energy is vibrating over here. I don't really have to pay attention to it, but it's doing its thing. And that now it's like, how does that energy in this room allow us to feel? What is the vibration of that? So I don't see them as being in competition. I see them as all as tools that create a universe. Yeah. Lindsay, does that resonate with you? What did I ask? Well, you were asking-- you were asking me about the competition between the container and the object. And maybe my question for you is, has your connection to the idea of the object changed over the course of your career? I think it has. Yeah. I still see the physical work as-- the objects as primarily what I am making. Like the difference in even the way our studios look. You're walking into your studio here. It feels like-- it's an entire immersive mood. I feel like I'm being hosted and kind of led into-- yeah, it sort of like changes your whole nervous system coming in here in the best way. Everything is like hushed. And my studio is much more about sort of like messy things around to make. Like you can just grab something that the floors are not nice because I can paint on them and stuff like that. And there's a lot of industrial shelves with parts. There's a ceramic studio. And it's all open now. So it's sort of like where clients go, they can get a peek into everything. And so I think I'm-- yeah, I feel like maybe I'm less about creating this like total vision or immersive container that one can be invited into. And I like the idea of focusing on these objects that are even like unusual to me many times of like thinking about the bound glass things we've been doing recently. And like I can get so lost in that. And I think I'm more comfortable with that too of like thinking about it as these parts that then interior designer uses in their total vision. I think I love that space. I even prefer my work to be shown by other people. I prefer to be shown at a design gallery more than self-presenting. It's a better fit for my personality. That's really beautiful. It's such a gift in that way. There's so much trust in that. I think that's a beautiful way of letting an idea kind of fly and seeing where it lands. Yeah, yeah. And maybe I'm more introverted than you thought that could be it. So I love the privacy. I love endless hours just to sort of be in my own process. Yeah, without anybody looking, I could stay in that space for a long time. I don't feel like compelled to come out and share it. You know, not dissimilar. I think I feel like a lot of-- so we're sitting on the fourth floor, which are sort of client facing galleries. But I spend a lot of time on the third floor, which is where we actually are messy and where we make and where there are papers everywhere and things to play with. And there is a part of me that understands that there is my fourth floor persona, which is the host. And I learned that from the women in my family. I learned that from the way that they greeted people in their spaces. Yeah. It means to invite someone in and to hope that they feel like they want to stay. And then there's the part of me that just wants to be by myself. You know, I think both of those things are very present for me. And sometimes it feels like you have to choose between the two sometimes. And that can feel challenging. Yeah. Yeah, it does. And when you're on floor three, is it mostly sketching? Or do you also work with one-to-one actual size mockups, like how old would have studied the process? So the process, for me, is usually there's a spark that comes from something that I feel like I want to say, or something that I'm feeling, or something that I'm chasing, or something that feels like a memory that I'm trying to conjure from the ether. And it's usually sketching for me. And then it's communicating. those sketches to a really wonderful team of people who helped me develop those ideas. Yeah. Itterating, iterating, iterating, iterating. We do a lot of 3D modeling, 3D rendering, we do 3D printing. So we're looking at this in physical form. I love to work on paper. I love to see things full-size printed. I love to mark things up with a sharpie on the wall. Yeah. It's physical in the way that I like to use my body to shape the thing on paper. And then we do all the manufacturing and engineering things and prototypes. And then our factory and red hood is where we get to go play and finish things, put them together and see if they work. So it's a, I really hear and admire the immediacy with which you are connected to the hand and the form and the maker. I think that that feels really critical to me in the way that I imagine that you distill this like whisper into something. You know, I think there's a directness about that that I really love. And I think for me, what I'm often doing is telling a story so that there's a spark of an idea and then there's the process to get through what are the layers of information that we're sort of like weaving into this. And like does this detail make it feel more or more and that becomes part of the process is calibrating something so that it, so that the sort of cacophony of information that I think I'm trying to get across. It falls in a way that feels like elegant. Yeah, oh my god. I really get the cacophony also so much. I think that's actually a lot of what maybe we both do. It's like there's too much going on in the head. And so when you can pick like one thing, I want to design a sconce. It is calming. Yeah, really? Yes. And having parameters and really, you know, and thinking I think, you know, you know, you're, you're, you're way of working in systems. I think it's something that certainly has been hugely inspiring to me at the industry at large. I mean, you know this. You see it. And there's something about distilling the cacophony into a system that feels like it's this interesting, I don't know, it makes you feel strong. I just took this like crazy jumble of thoughts and I turned it into seven components. Look at that. Totally agree. Yeah, it's fucking great. Yeah, I never really thought about it this way before, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah, it's, and also you can feel like you can accomplish something in a day rather than just being so feeling so I could feel so unfocused or like very self-judgmental. But I love this like, oh, there's like evidence of like my brain was like, you know, hard with like thinking all day, but like when you don't have anything to show for it, it can, it can not, it's not easy. It's like, yeah. Evidence is, I think evidence is a really interesting word because I, I think a lot about how a thing when we finished it, what I hope is that it's evidence of the brains and the hearts and the hands that it took to express that idea and there's something about understanding the power of the object to hold the frequency of all of those things. Yes. That is kind of actually the thing that keeps me going. Yes. Yeah, yeah. It comes through. Like, your work does have a frequency and you can, it all, it all works together very beautifully but also each one has such a distinct voice. Thank you. Yeah. And, yeah, it's definitely like trans-enzy object. There's something about your work because it is so, it's symmetrical and it's very different than what I do. There's something that's very centering about it, rounding about it, but then there's this part that's sort of like you can't really touch it. It's very ephemeral, very ethereal. Yeah. Thank you. I really, I feel that so strongly. Yeah. Thank you. That means, that means so much. I actually, I remember the moment, maybe it was like two or three years ago where I think for the first time we had this connection and maybe it was at one of the, I don't remember where it was. It was at a moment where we weren't, you know, having to talk about being lighting designers. And I remember getting to communicate with you in a way that made, I wanted you to see how clearly I see you and what you do and I felt that in return. In return, it was like the moment that it was like, oh, yeah, we got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we do. Yeah. Right, right. Well, if we're getting this point where I think both of your work is different, but also you're also kind of touching on the same skill sets as it's been described, like finding a frequency, like distilling the noise, you know, or finding the message through the noise, right? And for someone out there listening to this, maybe they're a painter, maybe they're a writer, maybe they make something else, maybe they make ceramics. Like what would you say is your, as both of you guys have a lot of experience, like what would be your advice to people to be like, this is how you say tune in to the frequency or find the frequency. It has been a question. I only ask big questions here. Apparently. I, yeah, there's so many ways to do it. It's so individual. Or is it really just about a mindset, right? Rather not a technique, but kind of like, but it's very, they're very connected. Very, they're all connected. I think it is. Yeah, I think it's so individual and I think it has to be. So I think it's maybe what I think both of us have done. I think maybe that's what it is. In finding a way to turn the kickoff, your personal brand, your personal frequency of kickoffening into the system, I think that's where you find those tools. And I think they're different for everyone. Yeah. And yeah, you find that tools, when it really like hurts so much too. Like you are forced to find your way. I mean, I feel like I found meditation the first year that I started my studio basically because it was so uncomfortable trying to be me. And I felt like there was like a leash, like I had a collar and I was just like going to whatever I was getting pulled, where I was getting pulled by external circumstances, people, needs, etc. And to a point that I was like, this has to end. And it, because the pain was so bad, really. And then finding that, which was sort of like a survival mechanism of transcendental meditation, that this is the reason I have a company or a studio. There's no way that the two things are separate. Thank you to my guests, Gabriel and Lindsay, and to everyone at both studios for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, the Grand Tourist Curator at thegrantourist.net. And follow me on Instagram @danrubinstein. And follow the Grand Tourist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you'd like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Until next time. [Music]