Shane LeMaster, B.A., M.A., LAC, CC-AASP - Peyote, Veterans and Flow States

Hey, what's up, everybody? Joe here. Thanks for tuning in to Psychedelics today. Again, today on the show, we have Shane LeMaster. I got the opportunity to meet Shane out in Oakland at the Psychedelic Science 2017 conference, and that was awesome. Shane was talking to Daniel McQueen, who is a past guest in the show, responsible for medicinal mindfulness, some really interesting stuff there. And actually, there's some really cool stuff coming out from Daniel McQueen pretty soon related to DMT. We'll have some announcements on that in the near future. I'm about to talk to him in a few minutes, actually. So Shane is a licensed therapist working in Colorado, does some really interesting addiction work, also does some retreats with a nonprofit helping veterans. He's also got some interests in microdosing for athletic performance, specifically martial arts like jujitsu. He also has a lot of experience and interest in traditional ayahuasca and peyote use, and we get into some of that as well. So I think this is a unique episode for us because we do start to talk about flow states, which is something we haven't really discussed on the show at all before. And I think it's hugely important for us to be talking about because it's something so near and dear to my heart, being an avid skier, snowboarder, mountain biker, all that kind of stuff. So it's something I almost feel negligent for not talking about it. So we get into that. So I really hope you enjoy this episode. I think we're going to have Shane on next week as well, because we didn't really get into microdosing as much as we should have. So we're going to dig into that as well. So enjoy the show. A couple announcements, Sean and I have relaunched a class calling it Navigating Psychedelics Lessons on Integration and Self-Care. We're expanding the initial class a whole bunch by adding 10 interviews, exclusive interviews with experts in the field and getting their perspective on self-care and or integration depending on their specialty. So information you probably won't hear anywhere else for a while and really excited about that. You can learn more on our site, psychedelicstoday.com and sign up there or reach out if you're interested, psychedelicstodayemailatgmail.com. Yeah, feel free to reach out whenever. Also, I have a breathwork event here in Breckenridge, Colorado, July 8th. Plenty of room left if anybody's interested in coming and we'd love to have you. I think that's really it for announcements. I'm sure there's going to be more workshops on the agenda in the near future. Oh, also, we're looking at being out there for the Horizons NYC conference in, I think, early October. So if you're going to be there, hit us up. Love to meet up and say hi. And I think that's it for now. Enjoy the episode and take care. The near future is here sooner than we thought. I just had a conversation with Daniel McQueen and wanted to give you guys an update. So we're co-sponsoring an event in Boulder, Colorado on July 23. And it's all about extended state DMT, or as Daniel calls it, cyber DMT. There's a researcher coming from Japan, Andrew, what's his name here? Dr. Andrew Gallimore, computational neurobiologist, pharmacologist, chemist. He's with the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology. So there's going to be a talk there. Daniel's going to give a talk about cyber DMT or extended state DMT as well, afterwards. And there's going to be a panel discussion. And also going to be some breath work, Daniel's community breath work through medicinal mindfulness afterwards. So that's going to be a really cool event. Wanted to throw that out because I had the opportunity to stitch this in real quick. So more information at medicinalmindfulness.com or on our event page, psychedelicstoday.com. Click events in the top bar, and you can find it there also in our Facebook feed. So reach out if you have any questions. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us. Looking forward. Take care. Welcome back to psychedelics today. Your hosts, Kyle and Joe. We're here with Shane LeMaster. He's interested in psychedelics, martial arts. He's a drug and alcohol counselor. Welcome to the show, Shane. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me, guys. It's always good to speak to fellow psychonauts. Yeah, definitely. So I think Joe and you met out at psychedelic science, correct? Daniel introduced you guys. Yeah, Daniel McQueen. Yeah, it was like a chance meeting in the hallway. Shane mentioned he was from Colorado, and I got really psyched. It's like, oh, perfect. More. I want to have a name for that. It's like the McKenna imperative, find the others. And it was just kind of one of those things. He said, okay, this is probably a good chance meeting. So let's dig in. And Shane, you have a really interesting background. You do a lot of stuff, including addiction counseling or work as a therapist in a kind of normal setting. You work with veterans doing some kind of, I don't really know how to put that, retreats maybe. Yeah. Yeah. And you just have a whole fully featured life, it seems, and also are interested in martial arts and how psychedelics might tie in nicely with martial arts and how they're being used. So there could even be a tradition of that in the past, or probably most likely is. So let's dig in. How did you first kind of get exposed to the psychedelic material and what kind of sent it home that you needed to be involved in some way? Well, actually, my first exposure to any mind altering substance was psychedelic. When I was 16, the first substance I ever used was psychedelic. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to die. So, you know, I experimented recreationally with most hallucinogens as a teenager into my young 20s. But this was a time where I really had no spiritual backing, no foundation in anything. And I found Buddhism in my undergrad years at CU Boulder. And I had always done martial arts throughout my whole life. But it wasn't until I found Buddhism that I started to understand that altered states of consciousness had some greater significance than just the novelty and the excitement and, you know, the enhancement of dance experiences and stuff. I started to realize that there's a much deeper connection to not only our ancestors, but to the spiritual realms and the spiritual domains. And, you know, that that bled into my Buddhism, bled into my martial arts. My psychedelic use has blended in with my martial arts as well. And my passion has always been studying and understanding the human mind. And that's why I got into psychology. That's why I became a certified sport and performance psychology consultant. That's why I went through my own addiction phases and recovered from those. And now I help other people as a licensed addiction counselor and integration therapist here in Colorado. So really, psychedelics, started out as an experiment and has since woven its way into every aspect of my life. And I would not have it any other way. You know, I'm so grateful for how much psychedelics have enriched my life and enriched my work and enriched my passions. When you were doing it recreationally and you said that you saw like your first experience and you saw something beyond this, life, what do you mean by that? Yeah. So, you know, growing up, I had always been more of like an atheist or agnostic based my understanding of our reality and science, what I could see, what I could measure, you know, this 3D realm that we live in and really had no, you know, you know, I was very ignorant to the idea that there could be anything beyond that. Through the psychedelic experience, you know, it opened my eyes. It opened my heart and my spirit to seeing that, you know, there is far more that we don't understand in comparison to what we really do understand. We think we know a lot, but once you, once you take psychedelic, you understand very quickly that, you know, next to nothing of what's going on in this universe. And that just fascinated me. You know, it seemed like the final frontier, but it also seemed very familiar, you know, it was, it was somewhere that I had been. It's been before many, many times. I just instilled this desire to go back there and explore that and figure out what that was. Beautiful. And what made you get into counseling in that realm? Well, living in the Western world, you know, we have less opportunity for things like shaman schools and things like that. So I kind of had to take the, you know, the Western based approach, which is, you know, mental health and the counseling field. So, you know, I made my way through Western education, got my bachelor's and my master's degree in psychology, like I was told I was supposed to, got my experience playing by all the rules. But I always had an undertone in all my work that, you know, I wanted to go beyond the Western model. I was more akin to Eastern traditional medicines, getting away from medications and really helping people tap into their own innate abilities within their mind to not only manifest physical health, but also manifest mental health. And my particular interest is enhancing human performance, both mentally and physically. So going beyond just maintaining health and now pushing the envelope and seeing like what are we really made of as humans? What can we achieve if we tap into these deep mental states? Do you have a background as an athlete growing up? Yeah. So I've been a martial artist my whole life, almost 30 years now. So I always had martial arts in my life, whether it be, you know, Taekwondo or Aikido when I was young, wrestling during middle school and high school, you know, Krav Maga, Sambo, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai, kickboxing. These are all things that I've been involved in. I've been involved in my whole life. I was also an athlete in, you know, a variety of other varsity sports growing up. But I was never really the most athletic on any team. I was never, you know, I could hold my own, but I was never, you know, NFL quality or anything like that. So I think my interest began by exploring, like, how can I reach these potentials that other people are reaching if it's possible for all of us? And that's kind of where my athletics and psychedelics start to blend. Yeah, it's really interesting. I'm interested in somatic psychology. So kind of embodying, you know, being in the body. And I think that's really important for a lot of folks. And I've into some sort of martial arts. I did do Aikido for a little bit, and I find that practice to be really great, because it's like nonviolent. And, you know, maybe you're just tossing people around. But yeah, there does seem like there's a bridge between like these flow states that you might get into martial arts and the psychedelic world. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I'm also, you know, I'm a big meditator. So I meditate on it daily. I find meditation, or the states of consciousness we reach during meditation, and flow states, the states we reach when we're totally in the moment in sports. And then the flow states that we reach under psychedelics, where it just seems like our mind and our body are fully in tune, fully in balance, fully in harmony. All three of these states, in my experience, have very close similarities. And it should be an area of study, which I hope to someday, you know, find a research team that would be willing to take me on so that I can pursue this line of research. Yeah. Could you break down that a little bit? Like, what is it? How do you access it for people that are interested? Sure. So the leading expert on flow states is a guy, and I'm probably going to butcher his name, but I'm going to do my best. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. I believe he is based out of Canada, but he's an old school sports psychology guru, I would say. And he's probably considered as much in those circles that I run in. But he's really dedicated his life's work to examining these flow states in human beings, not only during fight or flight responses, but also how to better elicit flow states when you want them. But the science and, you know, the evidence to back up a lot of the, I guess, the discussion on eliciting flow states is still, you know, it hasn't been solidified yet. So we don't quite know yet how the flow states happen or how we can elicit them on command. It's another area of study I'd like to study. But we do know, you know, some of the characteristic traits that people experience in flow states that they report. And we also know that performance, physical performance and mental performance goes through the roof when you're in a flow state. You know, it's kind of like, you getting out of your own way. So we're always in our way. And I can use athletics as an example, just because that's my experience. But in athletics, particularly, you know, martial arts, if you're thinking about your movements as you're moving, you're already a step behind. Really, you need to get out of your own way, get out of your mind, stop thinking and get into this place where you can trust and accept that the training was effective, that your muscle memory and your muscle movements are going to be there, that your reflexes and your balance is going to be there. And you need to have this trust. When you reach that state, time seems to slow down. Just like in psychedelic experiences, you can see things more clearly, you can see things happen before they happen. And you can react to your environment in much more effective ways. Both, like I said, physically and mentally. So people can get in flow states while doing academic work or while writing or while doing surgery. You know, surgeons can get in flow states while they're doing that. So really, any domain where performance is a variable, flow states can be studied and examined in these states. I feel a little negligent, Kyle, in not discussing flow states before. Because, you know, I live in a ski town. And that's what I do is like a total addict for flow states. And, you know, that's what I'm doing. Well, you almost started a podcast called Flow State too, right? Yeah, it actually was called Flow States Radio. And it is almost offline. But yeah, it's, you know, this concept of flow is huge. And we need to understand it because it's one of the top ways we could make ourselves happier and have more fulfilling lives. It's one of many ways, but it's a key one, I think. Absolutely. Yeah. So that's cool. I really hope you can get a research team around that. I think even some college teams would be interested in that kind of research. Like what does microdosing look like? Maybe they go on professional vacations to Amsterdam for a couple weeks every off season to get microdose training or something. And, you know, it would be really cool to see how that develops. Some really interesting work with veterans. Can you talk a little bit about what you're doing there? Yeah. So I was just brought in to a nonprofit based here in Colorado. They're a nationwide nonprofit organization. And their primary aim when they first started was to help not only veterans, but help the families reintegrate back to normal civilian life after their service. They have since expanded, and formed a sub program, which is what I just became clinical director of. And our primary focus in that venue is to help train veterans who have already gone through the initial training, the initial integration training, help train them not to become counselors, but to become peer mentors and to reach out to other vets who are struggling with their transitions, who are suicidal. And our primary mission is to reduce the number of veterans that are in the hospital, to reduce the suicide rate among veterans. I mean, there's over 20 veterans that commit suicide in our country every single day. And that's just way too high. So our primary goal is to, you know, give struggling veterans a peer support network that's nationwide or even worldwide that they can reach out at any time and get the support they need. And so the work that I do, you know, as a clinical director is more, you know, writing the curriculum, giving them the support they need. And so that's really what I do. And that's what I do. And so that's what I do. To be peer supports, what do they need to be paying attention to as far as self-care, you know, and putting on retreats, you know, two, three times a year where these vets can come up and get hands-on one-on-one role play training with me and some other vets who are, you know, reached higher levels as coaches. And yeah, our goal is really to prevent suicide as much as possible. That's wonderful. I'm curious, the peer model, it seems like it's starting to gain some traction. What would you say the benefit of having like a peer model versus like a bunch of clinicians just hanging out with these vets? I mean, obviously the peers can relate a little bit better, but it seems like this peer movement is kind of gaining traction. So that's really cool that you're doing this type of work. Yeah, so from my experience in working with vets, not only in my private practice, but also with this nonprofit, is that after receiving the care that they receive at the VA, most veterans are against receiving any sort of professional help, any sort of government funded help. They just constantly report to me that the care they get at the VA is substandard and it almost turns them away. You know, to a point where they don't want to seek help anymore. So this peer model is much more beneficial, like you said, because they don't feel like the person on the other end of the phone or the person they're talking to has any financial vested interest in them getting better. That the person is really there to talk and cares about them and cares about their well-being and isn't there to collect a paycheck and isn't talking off of some script written by the government. You know, a lot of these veterans, you know, their eyes were opened after going to war and they realized firsthand the corruption that comes from the government and they don't trust it. So, you know, I experienced a little bit of kickback at first when they brought me into the group, which I was expecting. You know, I'm not a vet myself. And the vets saw this, you know, young clinician coming in who had. You know, less combat experience than they did. And and what is he going to tell us? But I think it's because of my upbringing. I grew up around a lot of military people. I serve a lot of military vets in my practice. I even train military personnel in some of their hand to hand stuff. So I know the lingo. I know what goes on. You know, I was invested myself in the culture. So. You know, very quickly, you know, those boundaries broke and they let me in within the first day and but they but they told me, you know, this is uncommon that they usually, you know, just like civilians hold stigmas against one vets that hold stigmas against civilians to, you know, and we need to realize that we're all on the same team, the civilians to help you. And we want to give back because you gave to us so freely, you know. I've wanted to do some work. Kyle and I both do breathwork workshops, and I've wanted to bring that to some veteran groups. I'm close with some people that run some veteran support organizations like I don't know if you've heard of it. Project Healing Waters, where they take people fly fishing vets and their families fly fishing up in the in the mountains of Colorado outfit them and, you know, stuff that's, you know, not necessarily, you know, what we picture as people with psychedelic interest as being super healing. But. But, you know, just nature exposure and being in some sort of flow state. I think those two things are huge. But how do I bring something like this psychedelic conversation or holotropic breathwork stuff to these veteran groups as a non-veteran? And it's very tricky. Like you say, you have to, like, walk the walk and look more similar to them than sometimes they might look to each other. You know, as somebody that's active in jujitsu and martial arts, you do you do look like you could be a vet. So it's not that probably helps a lot. Do you have any tips for how non-veterans could interact more helpfully with the veteran communities? Well, I think you're absolutely right. My particular look that I have, I definitely use it to my benefit with vets. So, you know, all my tattoos and, you know, my samurai style haircut. My beard and, you know, my stature because of the jujitsu, you know, it definitely makes me look like a vet. And a lot of vets think I'm a vet right off the bat. But for clinicians who, you know, may not look like me, you know, the best advice I could give for breaking down those barriers is just let them know that, you know, you really do care. That, you know, you're not going to give them the same treatment that they got from the VA. That you understand what it's like to not get the care that you were promised in the first place. You know, there's a sense of betrayal by the people who you were protecting, you know. So making sure that if you want to work with vets, go out and talk to vets off the clock. You know, talk with as many vets as possible. Hear their stories. Read, you know, autobiographies from vets. Who have written about their experiences in wartime. Watch documentaries. You know, just immerse yourself as deep as you can and really try and understand, apply to the veteran. Because it really is just like anybody else's experience. It's unique. Just like anything in mental health, we cannot approach any of this stuff from a standardized, you know, book of tools. You know, those are merely guides to. To give us ideas to pursue it on a more individual or unique basis. And to see them as individuals, you know. Right. You can't bump all vets together. Right. Absolutely. Like they try and lump all civilians together. You know, it's hard for us to do that. We really have to evolve past that. We have to grow beyond our clinical training and, you know, become more human. So, yeah, great advice. Thanks for that. I definitely was, I don't know, probably when I was younger, you know, really against like a lot of that war stuff. But as I've been becoming more interested in psychedelics and especially the MDMA for PTSD trials, I've been starting to try and, you know, view view that totally different with the veterans and just having a lot more empathy and being like, wow, like, you guys served our country being 18, you know, just after high school. Like, I don't know what the hell. And then seeing so much traumatic stuff and coming back here and not knowing how to integrate that experience and maybe not having the support. I mean, it's it's pretty wild. So, yeah, over the years, I've definitely been a little bit more compassionate towards that, which is, I think, good. Yeah. And I know you guys brought up, you know, trying to get vets interested in maybe not psychedelic experiences right off the bat, but at least into breath work. Do you guys have any experience with, you know, getting any positive results from vets doing breath work? I mean, I don't know of any individual studies, but I would love to have some sort of pilot study with like, you know, one or two measures being done. Sure. I think that would be really, really cool. Kyle, do you know of any specific veteran studies with breath work? I'm not 100% sure off the top of my head. We'd probably have to look that up. But, you know, just from. Personal experience, there have been some older vets that have been coming to some of the workshops and, you know, they have pretty positive results. But I don't think like some of the older ones are probably experiencing a lot of that PTSD as the newer ones are experiencing at a higher rate. But one person who's a psychiatrist comes to our workshops a lot and they are psychiatrists, the VA. And it's been really interesting. I've definitely talked to her about how. Breathwork has changed her clinical practice and showing up to work. And that's been really interesting. I mean, it's totally changed her way she approaches the work. But, yeah, I've always thought about that. It'd be really interesting to see how effective breathwork is for helping PTSD and trying to get back in the body. Because I think a lot of that is the trauma is being so detached from the body and being afraid to interact with it and to, you know, do the breathwork and get back in the body. And feel that, I don't know, I think it could be somewhat beneficial. And, you know, even with flow states or doing martial arts, like getting back in the body, I think, is really important for people that have had experience of trauma. I know it's just been really significant for me having like a near death experience and being really detached from my body. Getting back in has been like a really big task. Yeah. And, you know, I think upon initial consideration, I think. Well, through my experience of breathwork anyway, it could be re-traumatizing to some extent, you know. That too, yeah. Ventilation, you know, increased heart rate, increased respiration that can bring about a re-experiencing of the trauma. But if that person could finish the full cycle of feeling and dealing with the trauma, it could be very beneficial. Yeah. I mean, like you said, with martial arts, with jujitsu, I mean, we run a. We run a. A very small veterans only jujitsu class at my gym every weekend. And what we're doing is we're helping to treat the PTSD through some exposure. So like you said, you know, they need to reconnect with their bodies and a lot of this. trauma, I believe, is stored not only in the psychology of the veteran, but also in the body. You know, whereas, you know, someone may come up and touch them in a certain way that will re-trigger their PTSD. And so what we, with our veterans MMA and jiu-jitsu class is we'll come in, you know, me as a clinician with experience doing, you know, the PTSD therapy and also coupling that with physical touch. So jiu-jitsu is a very physical sport and you are in close proximity, you know, dealing with arms around your neck and your limbs being bent nearly backwards and people smothering you and sitting on top of you. And, you know, you reach these panic states very, very readily in that sport. So by coupling the PTSD psychotherapy that I do with this form of physical touch, I'm able to do that. And so I'm able to do that. And so I'm able to do that with physical touch. um martial arts as a therapy for for ptsd or anything like that i haven't really looked into it um much uh so no i couldn't tell you if anybody's using that i don't i think it's it's very difficult to um to run actual research that's standardized and that you're accounting for all the variables with such a dynamic um expression as jiu-jitsu you know um every jiu-jitsu player has a different style and everybody you wrestle with is has a different experience and you learn something new from from every single person so um unless you you know that's something i'm exploring myself is how how do you turn that into a study where you can control for that for those kind of variables um but not knowledge you nobody's doing those yet right it'd be really tough to put them into like uh well actually yeah interesting to explore for sure so um can we talk a little bit about like peyote and ayahuasca and and how you feel like those might relate to um i guess self-development and therapeutic aspects and just general expansion like where yeah that's a very general statement so wherever you want to go with that uh sure um so use of peyote ceremony and and ayahuasca ceremony for personal development um well uh you know we can take this discussion in many different ways i think um you know the the more traditional peyote and ayahuasca ceremonies um are the type that i've been in um and i think that's a very general statement so i think that's a very general statement they have been profound in my own personal development um mostly during the integration phase but also during the experience itself um as far as uh you know peyote shamanism and ayahuasca shamanism you know becoming more of a popularized uh thing in the united states and people going on um you know week-long retreats um things like that um i'm not sure how i guess i'm not sure of the people who participate in those uh their motivation or if it's um you know if they're using it um in the right way who's who's to say what the right way is or not but um the way i've experienced peyote and ayahuasca have been in traditional ceremony um with a very healthy container around it um healthy people coming into it um who have the right intention you know they're screened properly um and the integration phase afterwards is more comprehensive you know it's not just you know you come here you take this medicine and then you leave and good luck you know there's there's follow-up weeks sometimes months afterwards um to further help with the integration process and um yeah i've found anyway that um you know the traditional ceremonies um have been um probably more beneficial to me for personal growth than have um you know i've had a lot of my um my own uh like high-dose lsd experiences or or high-dose psilocybin experiences where i just go up into nature i mean those are very very enlightening um type experiences in themselves but um the ceremony and and being with a group and feeling that group energy really adds something um to that that personal growth aspect we find a breathwork group is huge super huge for um the breathwork workshops we do is is this group process and having like a dynamic group energy um totally huge but go ahead kyle sorry um no i was gonna say what do you think the difference is between the ceremony versus going out in nature um you know maybe is it because of the preparation the group setting the integration of the ceremony where maybe you don't get that by yourself in nature um so well there's a lot more that goes into the traditional ceremonies so the ceremonies i've taken part in you know there's usually you know a diet regimen that that you is suggested that you follow for two weeks before um you know there's intention setting that that starts a month or more before where you're meditating on it every day before these ceremonies um the actual ceremony itself and having being in the presence of a shaman and and understanding the history behind the ceremony and uh how ancient they are um really makes you feel connected to your ancestral lineage um it helps provide an added level of respect for the medicine um and for yourself and then the structure with the integration uh using the group again this peer model bouncing ideas back and forth from each other um having open access to some of the shamans to you know bring up dreams or bring up visions that you've had afterwards um those are all things that we're able to that i think are are additional with the traditional ceremony um but you know with any psychedelic use that i do these days it's it's done out of respect for the medicine even if i go up in nature um there's still preparation that goes into it maybe not quite as extensive um i might not start a diet or anything but i will have meditated on some intention i will have um you know made sure that i have a safety net in place with people on speed dial if i go into crisis you know it's preparation there but um it seems like the container is a lot more solid when it's uh when it's conducted uh in a ceremony what do you think about some of the clinical stuff that's going on how do you view that um i i love the work that's going on with john hopkins you know i got to meet a number of those um those researchers out of the psychedelic science conference um i i absolutely love what's going on with the psychedelic science conference it's been a lot of fun and it's been interesting to see what's going on in the clinics in switzerland as well as at ucla things like that from my own experience i'm a little concerned with how i guess static and sterile the the clinical environments are that these people are going for their experience um but it seems like the protocols that these researchers are using are fantastic um you know most of the researchers that i talked to have lots of experience themselves with psychedelics which i think is you know a crucial component for any clinician who wants to work in any way with psychedelics whether through integration or through doing psychedelic psychotherapy um you need to have experienced these things you will not but these people are talking about you know you'll think that they're yeah so um that's really important um and most of these research teams have those people on staff you know i feel like uh you know the again you know the government dea atf they're all still um getting in the way quite a bit of of expanding a lot of these research projects but with maps getting bigger and bigger with the mdma studies going to phase three um you know there's some phase three studies on on medicinal marijuana uh going on in other countries um you know with some of the regulations starting to to uh release their hold a little bit i feel like um there's tons of room for this field to grow psychedelics like be in that and that's what i'm hoping to um spend the rest of my life doing if it ever manifests yeah do you have any thoughts about how you know maps you know psychedelic studies how mdma isn't necessarily like a straight-up psychedelic like at higher doses for many people it can have those effects right but it's it's an amphetamine that's doing some really funny things um and you know obviously it's super therapeutic so like i feel like in in some ways it's almost confusing the issue like we're talking about psychedelics but we're talking about mdma you know which is a great drug don't get me wrong but you know what's up like wait do you have any thoughts about around that yeah um well i mean if we take the the term psychedelic in its um or in the most literal sense that i've heard it defined you know mind manifesting yeah right um so uh with mdma you know you may not get the uh you know the visual hallucinations and things um but your mind is still manifesting um new connections you know when you're under when you're under the influence of it you're you're understanding your connection to yourself and your connection to other people uh in such greater detail you know it you're your relational mind is manifest during these experiences um and you know with the peyote ceremonies you know that's a very somatic psychedelic so i actually see very few visuals when i when i go to these ceremonies you know it's it's all energy work it's all body work um that i'm feeling um and so you know in that sense um you know it's body manifesting and mind manifesting through my through my subconscious um the is ceremonies uh for me have definitely been um you know i've been in the ios ceremonies for a long time um and i've been more cerebral so those are easily classified as as mind manifesting for me um but as far as your question goes with mdma you know as long as um you know i i think it could be qualified as a psychedelic experience for sure um because your mind is making new connections it is changing and um if guided properly changing for the better i mean even even a meditation can be a psychedelic experience you know flow state can be a psychedelic experience if you are experiencing your highest potential yeah it can be very transcendent non non-drug things for sure um so we haven't talked too much on the show about peyote at all really um which is interesting i'm just noticing that now um can you i'm afraid to ask but i'll ask anyway is there is there any kind of part of any of your experiences that you could share to characterize maybe uh what what it's like for people um for listeners because i i think there's huge value in peyote work but you know without understanding it myself you know having not participated i can't really talk to people about it sure um i would say out of all the psychedelics that i've experienced um peyote is the toughest it is not an easy journey to to embark on for an evening in the tp um not only is the medicine uh bitter to the taste and um you know makes you want to purge after you eat it um but um the feelings you feel in your body with with the uh the traumas and the energy blockages being broken apart and you know expelling those purging um those can be very difficult and challenging experiences uh having the mindfulness to still sit through that uh and still sit in the tp all night um extremely difficult and you're met with uh with other extraneous um uh challenging things in your environment like at the last peyote ceremony the first two hours of the ceremony the tp was just full of smoke from the fire in the middle so all of our eyes were burning none of us could open our eyes we're all inhaling smoke because it's closed in uh you know it's it's very challenging in that regard too and the heat from the fire gets extremely hot and sitting in a cross-legged position uh for 10 12 hours straight is very difficult very challenging sometimes these peyote ceremonies are coupled with a two and a half hour sweat lodge afterwards um and that's uh sensory deprivation so that can be even more challenging than the ceremony itself where you're sitting in the earth in pitch black um in the middle of the in you know 120 140 degree uh sauna temperatures with super loud uh drumming and singing going on it's definitely the most challenging journey um journey work that i've done wow so let me get this straight you're in a tp with a group and you're just sitting cross-legged for a few hours and there's a shaman there that's usually guiding you through it with the fire yeah so um we're sitting in a tp with a group and you're just sitting cross-legged for a few hours and there's In a teepee, in a circle around the outer edge, there's a shaman, and he's called the road man. And then there's a few other officer positions in the teepee going on. So the participants sit around the outside and just partake in the medicine work. And your main goal as a participant is just to sit there, eat the medicine when it comes around, focus on your intention, and stare at the fire to receive your messages. There's the road man, who's the shaman. There's the drummer, who goes around and does all the drumming on the traditional water drum all night. There's the doorman, who is responsible for keeping track of you when you leave the teepee to go to the bathroom or whatever. They're the ones who come back and get you if you get lost. They're also responsible for blessing and cleaning up your purged vomit once you do expel that. They clean it up and bless the spot that it happened. And then go outside and bury it in a very ceremonial way. And there's also the fire tender, and their job is to maintain the fire all night long. On the altar in the middle of the teepee, the fire tender makes certain shapes with the ashes throughout the night. And it's a four-stage ceremony. So the first stage is a half-moon shape. Second stage is a water bird that they create out of the ashes. Third stage is a fire bird. And the last stage is a heart. And so, yeah, the ceremony starts around 9 or 10 at night and gets out the next morning around 8 a.m., when the sun has been up for a little while. So it's an all-night ceremony, and it can be, you know, extremely challenging. But it feels like you're in a spaceship when you're in that. It feels like you're in a spaceship with a bunch of other fellow travelers. Oh, I bet. And, yeah, you get to commune with the spirits. It's pretty cool. And you are having conversations or at least receiving messages back typically. Is there a certain characteristic to them? Like ayahuasca would be something like a grandmother. Ibogaine would be kind of like a tough grandfather. Yeah, so the peyote is referred to as a grandfather peyote. And there's, in my very first peyote ceremony, there was a shaman in there who spoke of a prophecy where the grandmother ayahuasca, and the grandfather peyote, would be brought together in ceremony. And that this would be how the world would be changed. And so that was kind of interesting that peyote and ayahuasca were both introduced at the same time during that ceremony. Interesting. And also the spirit of peyote, is it the deer? Am I correct? Maybe it's different for different people, but, yeah, deer. Yeah, that's one of the major spirits is the deer. Cool. Our breathwork teacher has this really awesome, it's a yarn painting in beeswax. And sometimes he'll show it at workshops. But, yeah, it shows the roadman and whatnot shooting the peyote caps and the deer spirit in the back. It's really interesting. Yeah. You guys should try it if you guys get a chance. I'd love to. It sounds scary, but it sounds like something I should do. Yeah. Is there? And it's legally illegal, by the way. Technically. Yeah, technically federally legal through the Native American Church. So your listeners can look up the native American church online and find a local groups that may be holding ceremonies around them. Yeah, that's huge. People, uh, do legal things. We don't want you to break the law. So is there any conversations in the Colorado peyote world or this Western peyote world about conservation of peyote? I remember there being a couple of tracks and in Oakland, um, about that being a kind of a major issue, like greenhouses not being the way to go or whatever. Um, yeah, I think, you know, they do talk about it in the circles. Um, they talk about how, um, Western industrialization is, uh, you know, infringing on their sacred grounds where they grow the peyote and, you know, just going through there with tractors and tilling up everything. Um, and these buttons, you know, these peyote cacti, uh, you know, a cacti may be the size of, uh, the palm of your hand and that would be a really large one. You know, that one may take like 80 years to grow. So, yeah. So, um, you know, these things don't just replenish every year. You have to, you know, you really have to take care to, um, to grow them in cycles and conserve as much as you can. Um, uh, yeah, I think the same thing is going on also with the Colorado river toad and people trying to, uh, you know, swipe those up for the five MEO off of, off of those toads. And, uh, they're, they're nearing that extinction level. You know, it's, it's getting dangerous when people, like I said, I think it's, it has a lot to do with this. Um, it's like tourism. That's kind of becoming a trend with, with people who have, um, you know, not everybody who participates in them, uh, is doing it for the wrong reasons, but I think a lot of the psychedelic tourists, um, don't have, um, you know, these higher ideals in mind where conservation is even an issue, uh, where ceremony and tradition, is even an issue and where integration is, um, you know, huge issue, you know, people just think it's going to be a fun weekend. Well, it can be, it can be for sure, but it can be so much more. It can be life altering, you know, not only for, for you, but for everyone in your life, for everyone around you. That's fascinating. The idea of somebody, uh, yeah, let's, let's have this, uh, fancy retreat weekend in Iquitos at a five-star hotel. And drink Iwaska and like have it be the idea of a fun weekend that blows my mind. And I know there's people out there thinking that it'll be really neat. Chelsea Handler did it. So let's do it. And I was like, what? Um, so we're about to hit eight o'clock Shane. Um, I think we're going to have to get you back on to talk about integration. Um, cause we didn't even get to touch on that. And it sounds like that is a part of your work with, uh, people in addiction and post psychedelics. Um, so we'd love to have you on to talk about that. Um, any, any, um, thing you want to throw out before we, uh, wrap up here? Um, I think it'd be great to be back on. Um, I would also like to, uh, if we could next time talk about, uh, my research interests in, um, using a micro dosing to enhance human physical and mental performance. Um, my own, my own background, like I said, it was in sport and performance psychology. Um, so I'm trying to learn to explore, uh, the use of, of small doses of, of numerous different substances to, um, to bring about, uh, more physical, um, you know, things like, um, lower pain tolerance, uh, or higher pain tolerance, um, you know, better balance, um, you know, better high and high hand coordination, things like that. So a lot of, a lot of benefits this way. I mean, it's already being used in Silicon Valley for these purposes, um, for, for mental stimulation, but, uh, I really want to look into physical as well as mental stimulation and how this may also be a bridge to, um, maybe introduce the general larger public to psychedelics. Um, if we can show them that, um, you know, you don't have to be a hippie to take these things that if these, uh, micro doses, you're not even going to notice anything's going on, but it's going to enhance your work. It's going to enhance your family life. It's going to enhance your athletics and, and your fitness. It's going to enhance everything in your life. And this may be a bridge into, um, showing the general public that these, these molecules are not meant to be feared. Absolutely. Microdosing for golf, tennis, and squash. Maybe for polo too. Absolutely. I, that would be a fascinating bridge. What a, what a way to get in front of, um, some very influential people. Yeah. Take 20 points off your golf game. Microdosing now. Yeah, let's, let's do it. I'd love to. Um, so yeah, we'll wrap this recording for now. And thanks Jane. We really appreciate it. Thanks guys. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.