139: Shamelessly Owning Your Part of the Story

Life isn't perfect, and neither are we. No. But we know how to face our fears and have some fun and talk about all the messiest things of life. Like the messiest things. Get connected to yourself, get connected to others and get connected to the life right in front of you. This is the connected life with Justin and Abby. That's me. That's you. Andy. A couch. Triggered. A couch. Up here. Today. A couch. What was that? A couch. A couch. A couch is the problem. It's always the couch. It's always the freaking couch. Yeah. Hit that. But then Justin's intro was also very accurate. Yeah, we're all just triggered up here in it. You know what's funny is that when you do a podcast and the thing that the podcast is going to be about actually happens. In real life, you're like, why are we doing a freaking podcast about this right now? Because I just want to solve in my horrible emotions right now. Well, me. I'll tell you what I'm triggered about is Facebook. It's driving me crazy. I keep trying to buy Legos on Facebook Marketplace, but I have to read through everybody's like political crap just to get to my leg. My crisis is real up in here, just based on a leg, okay. I'm dying. We decided to make a course about understanding your emotions and your triggers and what's going on in your body and your feelings when you get hijacked or when triggers happen in your life. And we did it because we get triggered a lot triggered. And a lot is just the normal human amount of triggers. Yeah, a lot is the norm. I mean, I think actually people live in a triggered state more than they understand. Absolutely. I mean, I think I'm realizing it more and more about myself. I'm like, oh, okay. When I said, when they said, do you mind if the guac is extra at Chipotle? And I responded to really mean that actually had nothing to do with the guac. It's fine. Okay, the extra 50 cents. It's just, it's coming up more luckily though. Is that real? Did you actually get triggered about guacamole? Honey. Yes. I always get triggered about guacamole. Luckily, luckily now I have the tools to work through the guacamole trigger. Yeah, that's true. I know it's not about the guacamole. Yeah. And that's the beauty. That's what I was going to say. You guys got triggered about a couch. And Johnny did such a great rundown in like a 30-second spiel about how he recognized that his emotions were not about the couch, but do you want to share that, Johnny? Oh, yeah. I mean, like, so we're selling this house, Pete and I are selling this house. And the guy who's buying it wondered if he could buy the couch and the curtains. And the curtains are, you know, cheap IKEA curtains and the couch, I think we paid 50 bucks for it at a thrift store, but it's worth about 150 bucks, 200 bucks. It's cheap. It's the same cheap. We don't need to get the rundown of how cheap we are. Pete's in talk about triggers, Pete's in about me giving too many details. So there's a little. Yeah. But anyways, Pete and I had this conversation where I was frustrated that she wanted to sell it for more than I wanted it. I basically just wanted to give it for like, you know, nothing, you know? And I got super frustrated at Pete's and I walked away and I was like, why am I so frustrated about this? And what I came to realize as I walked through my process was I have an underlying feeling from the very beginning of our marriage because I was a small town hick kind of kid growing up. I grew up in a really small town and I have this good old boy side to me that just wants to stop and help everybody who has a flat tire and, you know, which is a good thing. It wants to pick up everyone hitchhiking on the side of the road. If someone needs help, he'll stop and make sure that he helps them. It's a great side to them. It's a good side, but it can also be detrimental. And I've over the course of our marriage, there's been a lot of times where I felt like Pete's he really dislikes this side of me and doesn't want me to be like that. And so as I walked away from this stupid conversation, which the difference between my opinion and Pete's was about $50, obviously, nothing, you know, but it's about the Prince of all. This is every fight and every couple, yeah, yeah, totals, yeah. And I walked away and I was like, oh, what I'm feeling is that she doesn't like this side of me. She doesn't like this side of me that just wants to help this guy out. And then my, oh, go ahead. So I was just saying in that moment for you, it had nothing to do with the price of the couch and everything to do with my value of who you are and what you are. No, I couldn't care less about the couch. I couldn't care less about the couch. Why do I smell anymore since because Pete's like, I'm really confused why he's so passionate about the price. I was like, normally it's like, yeah, whatever you think. I'm like, he's very passionate about the price of the couch and I'm not sure what is happening. But what I realized on the back end of it was how much damage can be done if you don't have the tools to walk through what you're feeling on the inside and come back. Because I mean, and people always joke about this, but marriage is end over stupid conversations like that. Yeah. Yeah. Because they escalate. And then I get pissed off and then you get pissed off because I'm pissed off. And it escalates and creates all this damage over something that doesn't make me. Well, because the truth is, it was never, and it never is about the thing that you're fighting about. It's always about deep connection. And if you don't have the tools to walk through it, right? If you don't have the tools to see that, you're going to keep having the same fight over and over again. It's not going to be about the couch. It's going to be about the 50 cent guacamole, or it's going to be about the person who cut you off, or it's going to be about the way that they, you know, discipline the kids. You know, it's going to keep popping up. And so I think I love that you said that, Johnny, because it's a prime example of how we've been able to, even through the story that we're telling, we've been able to get to the root of things and undo so much of the chaos. It's interesting how a lot of people will say my emotions feel very logical around this triggered state, but actually triggers are illogical, unmerited emotions. Right. And so outside of someone who's triggered people be like, this isn't logical to them. They'll be like, this is totally logical. And they don't realize this is maybe illogical for this because if you say, hey, your emotions are illogical to this, they feel totally dismissed, totally invalidated. And but when we're willing to actually go, okay, there may be something else under the surface beyond this. And even if my reaction to this is deemed as illogical, it doesn't mean that my emotions behind it aren't valid and that there isn't something actually driving this. It's very real. Yeah. Right. Well, and then I can come back to pizza and say, hey, I can do one of two things. But I can come back and say, hey, this is actually really important to me. And this is why and hopefully you can understand that's one direction it could go or it could go, hey, I don't actually care about the couch, but I do need you to know like when we have these kind of conversations, I still feel this way emotionally. And it's really important for me to know that you actually love who I am and that you're not just being critical of how I try to make decisions. And you came back and you came back and were able to communicate that and pizza immediately de-escalated because she was like, oh, I can understand what's going on. Totally. And you were able to actually be seen and heard for what mattered because if you would have fought for the couch, she would have continued to be confused. Right. And then you guys just would have circled. You would have felt more invalidated, Johnny. And she would have felt more confused. Well, and it was interesting because even this morning after we had had that conversation I got off the phone and I was asking Abby her opinion because I was like, okay, maybe I'm not seeing this right. I'll ask Abby what she thinks. And then after Abby gave me her opinion, which was similar to mine, which is why you're best friends. So you know, confirm each other's biases. Totally. But after she said that, I was like, I actually probably need to ask Johnny why this is important to us. I probably need to understand. Like there's probably something deeper here that I need to understand that I'm not quite picking up because normally he wouldn't care about this type of thing. So there's something underneath the surface, right, which is because both of you have worked on understanding triggers, understanding what's going on in your emotions. And so you when he was doing something out of his nature, you actually went to the benefit of the doubt, thought of like what something must be going on for him. And now that I understand how emotions work and triggers and how they show up, I can be like, oh, that's not his true self. So I need to find where his true self is. And so if you don't know, me and Pete see made a course called the pathway to go discover how your emotions are trying to heal you. And it is about the journey of self awareness, learning what's going on inside of you and learning what to do to walk through the healing process to get to yeah, vulnerability, compassion, parenting, connection, to be able to not just have pain get brought up by life, but actually get the healing. And your story in your marriage, this is why we're telling the story in your marriage, is so much what the heart of this course is, which is our emotions are constantly trying to live. let us know what's going on in our subconscious so that it can get healed. Like our emotions are wanting to lead us into a place of getting out of the torment cycle. Yeah. But when we don't know that or don't understand that, then our emotions can just feel bullying and tormenting and circular. Like we're just hitting our head against the wall over and over and over again. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, what is cool about this is that, you know, even what Johnny and I just displayed there for you, we've this content that we created Abby and I created, we've been doing for years now, we've tested it out. And we know that it actually works. And so what I love is that we kind of wear the guinea pigs on our own content and made sure like, okay, does this actually work? Does it get you to the heart of it? Does it get you to the root of it? And so I feel so excited because I'm like, Oh, we're giving all the things that we've tested out. And we know for sure work to get you to that place where you can deask like quickly, you can communicate from vulnerability, and you can stop these cycles that keep you tormented. So signups have already begun. And the course actually starts September 29th, which is very exciting. And me and pizza will be a part of the immersion program. The immersion program is a group you can join where you get to be a part of community connection, multiple different ways throughout you'll make friendships. We just had a bunch of people message us about how they found their best friends, their people that they're doing their life with. And it's a way to get connected and have the information really get deep into your world, not just something you learn logically, but something you figure out how to put into your life. So join us. We'd love to have you with us. Yeah, we're going to continue on. So you can go to Justin and Abby, abi.com to sign up. And then we're just going to jump back into pizza and Johnny's story to the story. Here we go. The saga. So I think where we left off, we left off on some real difficult conversations that sounded very damaging. And they were, you know, I think just to recap, you know, Johnny and I got married young. And by all means, are really good fit together. And there's no reason that like to us, there's no reason that we should have any troubles. Like we get along great, we're great pair. We want the same things in life. And then trauma really hit our lives in a hard way. And that's where you see us kind of go into our dysfunctional states and in our dysfunctional states, we are not good together. Amen. I think that's true for everybody. I remember saying that too with Justin, when we got married, I was like, when we are not our authentic self, we don't fit well. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And so, and so where we're at in this story is that about a year after we had gotten married, we had moved to Wisconsin. I hated it. Johnny was in a band. And we had had a conversation about me wanting to go back and him basically saying, I won't follow you. And we had also had a conversation about me saying that he should go back to college to have a backup plan and him saying that he didn't want to, right? And so if you want to hear the whole story of that, you can go and episode back. But basically from those conversations and that time, I obviously did not understand that Johnny was scared. And he was trying to create stabilization in the midst of my crazy up and down emotions. Yeah. And so to me, after that conversation, I just had made this vow of, you know, I guess he can't take care of me. I'll have to take care of myself. And I think I subconsciously thought, or consciously, I thought, he's not ready for marriage. And I entered into a really difficult conversation where I was like, I wish we could just date people. Which is because I really have a beer stability there, didn't it, Johnny? Yeah. I bet Tony was like, yeah, yeah, she's mentally like she's fine. I was like, I'm going to be divorced before I'm legally allowed to drink. Oh, my gosh, that's depressing. I think and this is this is what happened behind it for a long time, I judged myself off of that conversation. And when why would you ever say something like that? Why would you do that? I can't believe that you did that. But when I was able to look back at the story and put context around some of the conversations we had just have had I was and I said to him that night that we had that conversation, I was like, I know that this isn't realistic, but. And I want to be with you, like you're who I want to grow old with, I just can't be with you right now. Right. That's what I had said to him. And I think looking back, one thing that I know about myself is I don't do well when I feel trapped. And I had subconsciously trapped myself and murdered myself to the situation where I felt like I couldn't have a voice. Totally. And so I think in my head, it seemed logical at the time as a 21 year old, but I was thinking, if I could have the option that I felt like I didn't feel trapped in this, like I get out someone else than it would help me to want to choose back in or it would help me not feel so trapped so I could stay in this somehow, you know, I think that for a lot of people, the idea of being able to get out like the permission. Oh, I don't have to be here. I could divorce. I could walk away from it. I actually can not not from a threat point, but connecting to the reality that I have permission, I am not trapped to move, leave it any moment, actually brings a lot of peace. Because it becomes it it becomes an empowerment situation. It's like, Oh, I'm here because I'm choosing in totally. And I all of the counsel that I got and when I'm like, I can't do this, I'm really struggling. I don't know what to do. I don't feel comfortable living here. I don't feel comfortable. Johnny being in the band. Everyone's like, well, you made a commitment. Right to honor your commitment. Like you're in a covenant relationship. So I didn't I did not it, you see a girl, and I had judged my younger self so much for that conversation. But when I look back, I'm like, Oh, I see a girl who was so scared and felt so trapped and was trying to figure out how to stay. Yes, trying to figure out how to make it work was trying to figure out how she could get her heart. Like, oh, maybe I could get my needs met over here so that I could stay with you here. Yes, totally. But I mean, at the end of the day, I'm very sorry, honey. It's all good. It's all good. I'm sorry. It was that was that pretty abrasive Johnny. Yeah, I mean, it was very damaging back then, for sure, I didn't know what to do with it. But I think even as I process it now, it's all the more proof to me how important it is for people who are new in relationships and people who are young and marriage to actually get emotional help because I think like for us, and we can we talked about this in either the first or second episode, but how I walked away from marriage counseling with basically just that I needed to love her and she needed to respect me, right? You know, and then you're hearing her say, well, the advice I was getting was you have a, you've made a commitment and you need to stick with it. All of those statements are true. Yeah, none of those statements are incorrect. Totally. But they don't actually help you in the midst of the chaos of your life, you know, and I think that's where and all of those people were very well-meaning. Good-hearted. And it's good advice on some level. Yeah. But it's partial advice. Yeah, there's a big difference between good advice and a complete like path to how to navigate a situation. Yeah. Like one good little tidbit, even if it's good, doesn't actually help you navigate the storm that you're in. Right. You have to actually learn to understand what's going on inside of you, how to have a voice, how to yeah. Yeah. And you see, as our audience, yeah. And you see as our, as our story unfolds, I mean, one of the biggest damages that we're undoing in the last couple years is P.C. taking some of that advice, murdering herself. And then the whole dynamic of our relationship is about how, if she can just be OK, then we'll survive. Right. Like if she can manage herself, then we'll survive. And we're having to undo that because sooner or later that just catches up which leads us into the next part of the story. Because from there, Johnny did one of really amazing move, which is that he decided to get us our own place, even if it meant that we had like no money, right? Because he knew like we need space to just be a couple. And I was working down Tom Milwaukee at this point. So we moved to where I work. I didn't have to commute anymore. We had our own space. And it really helped a ton, like it helped a ton. But even with that circumstance change, I still felt trapped. I still was questioning, is this OK? And I had the fateful come to Jesus moment conversation with Abby where I was just kind of complaining about I remember this. Yeah, it was a really pivotal moment in my journey. I was just honestly feeling desperate. Like I am miserable. And I don't know what to do. See, you get to a point in your pain where you don't even care what the help is, you will take any life raft that someone throws you away, even if it's the hard path. And so I was just completely about, I don't know what to do, should I leave Johnny, is this ever going to work? I can't stay in Wisconsin, he can't be in a band because now the band's getting more serious. Right. At this point. And I'm like, I just, I don't know if I can do this. And Abby had said to me, like, can I be honest with you? Famous last words. For dangerous questions. Yeah, the famous last word. Which means you're not going to like what's about to be said. Absolutely. And she goes, can I be honest with you? And I was like, yeah, I actually want you to be honest with me because I want anything that will get me out of this hell that I'm living in. And she goes, the reason that you're not miserable. The reason you're miserable is not because you live in Wisconsin. It's not because Johnny's in a band. And it's not because your entire life fell apart. The reason you're miserable is because of you. Which was really strong at the time, but it's exactly what I needed to hear. Because the truth is is that I don't know what I could have changed in my circumstances. I couldn't change anything. The only thing I could change was myself. Now, in retrospect, I could have done some things that I wish I would have done. Which have been like, hey, we need to see a marriage counselor. And if you want to be in this band, we need to have a yes together and pray about how we're going to make this work for us. Right. You know, like, I could have done things like that. But at the same time, what I, when you gave that to me, it did not feel. Yeah, it hurt for a second, but it also felt like a breath of fresh air. Because it felt like someone opened a door for me and said, you don't have to be miserable anymore. Like you don't have to be victim to your circumstances. And I was like, thank God. And so that night, I wrote a letter to Johnny where I just basically apologized. For my side of things, I apologized for. I apologize for for bringing even the subject of divorce into our marriage. I apologized for any way that he felt unloved. I apologize for my emotions. I apologize for how hard it must have been for him being married to me. And and we had an amazing conversation and he just broke and cried. And I was able to just hold this the third time. This is the third time he cried. Yeah, I was able to just hold him and validate him and, you know, say, I'm so sorry. And from that day forward, I literally would wake up in the morning and choose gratitude. I learned what it was like to be in a situation. And this I will forever be grateful of because this, this what happened right there. Set me up for the rest of our life where it sadly in some ways continue to get harder. But it set me up in a way that has kept me for the rest of my life, which is that I learned this muscle that when life is hard and I can't change it, that I actually can change how I feel about it. And I I literally would wake up every morning and choose gratitude. I would start my day off with gratitude every single morning. And I still do that, you know, and learned the ability to be content. And I will say things from there. I mean, do you want to talk about Johnny from your end? What you experienced. I mean, I have very mixed feelings about that conversation. Yeah. Right now. Yeah. In the moment, it was amazing. In the moment, it was, I mean, I cried and I felt like you loved me again, which I didn't know if you still loved me. Yeah, that was one of the things you said. I didn't know you still loved me. Yeah. So in the moment, it was great in retrospect, I, if I'm being 100% honest in retrospect, I kind of wish that that conversation wouldn't have happened because it never made me come to terms with how much it wasn't working for you. Like felt like a bandaid. Well, it felt like it confirmed to me the story that I had been telling myself, which is this is all her fault. Yeah. I see the mix of that. Like there was value to the validation because your heart was really hurt. But it's like you needed to be punched in the face in your own way. Yeah. Basically, and come to the end of yourself and be like, no, I'm my own problem too. And that's where I wish I could have done it differently. And because I think at that point, I thought it's all your fault. This is all my fault. Yeah. I'm the one, like if I could actually just learn how to be okay, it's going to be. And so it must be me. I, it must have been my attitude rather than seeing it for what it was, which it was both of us. And we both needed to change. And we both needed to own, but I, I took it all on. Well, and this is the conversation about they're not being villains. We either villainize the other person or we villainize ourselves. And we are very rarely can hold that there are two people that are both a part of every situation. Yeah. And I think even as we're talking, I'm having an aha moment in my head where I recognize all the way back to childhood. I've always felt better in some ways when I'm the one to blame because then I can fix it. Yeah. So I feel a sense of control over the situation. So if I, and I still do this when we're in working through repair in our relationship, Johnny and I, after a fight, like I feel better when I can own something because then I feel like I can change something and I can always bet on myself. Yeah. And that's where you see the little orphaned kid who feels like, no, I can bet on myself. No, I can take care of myself. I can change things, you know. Yeah. And so I took it all on, which was not great. However, Johnny also gave it and was like, yeah, it was her fault. Yeah, totally. So crazy. Yeah. And I, but I did change. I did a 360 and two weeks later, Johnny went on his first tour, which was my absolute nightmare. That's the thing I did not want to have happened. Yeah. So much abandonment from every major relationship in your life, all at once. And now he's gone too. Yeah. But weirdly, I was actually okay. And in some ways, it felt empowering. I always feel this way. I hate feeling afraid of something because then it has power over me. So I always love having to face a fear even if it's hard because I know that I can do it. Yeah. And make it through because I've dealt with fear my whole life with anxiety. So it's so empowering. So I think in some ways, I felt so proud of myself. I'm living downtown and I can do this on my own. But then in retrospect, there were so many traumatizing things about being alone downtown by myself constantly. And, but I had a good attitude. And then from there, the band actually decided to go full time. Like, okay, now we're touring. We're going to quit our jobs and we're doing this, which meant that we had to move back into the condo. And by this time, this is year three, maybe. And we still didn't have our stuff out of storage. So even when we moved, like, we had a little tiny studio downtown. You know, so I remember thinking by all means, I should be so upset and so sad that we're moving back into the condo with his brother and sister-in-law. But I wasn't. I was so grateful and so happy. Wow. I just chose, I decided to choose joy and one great thing that came out of this is I also decided to make a life. So I like got really involved in my yoga studio and I started making friends at the church. And this is around the same time that I started coming back to church. And so I decided like, if I, if I have to do this, I'm going to make it. Yeah, good. I'm going to love my life here. Yep, totally. Oh, sorry, I was just going to say, isn't it interesting how we can always have two very conflicting emotions about an experience that we're having? We can be like, it was horrible. And it was the best thing for me. Totally. And all of that. And those are like truth intentions that a lot of people don't know how to deal with. Yeah. It has to be either one or the other. It was all horrible. It was all good. And you can be like, I had a lot of gratitude. And there's really good things. And then there was stuff that was really horrible for me. Yeah. And it's interesting because I feel like so much of life is bittersweet. Like even the good things have been our moments. And even the hard things have some good moments. And it's that tension of being able to hold both of them. You know, super healthy. But I ended up going on tour with Johnny. And we did that for a while. And we just entered into a really sweet. What was it like for you, Johnny? Sorry. Oh, gosh. I have so many emotions about that season. I think that it's hard for me to put into words how I feel about it because I have so much regret on this end of the way that everything went. Not because it wasn't good, but because I am cleaning up the mess now that I created back then, you know, which is not a very fun feeling for me. I think that I think the way that I feel about that season is on some level, it felt like God redeemed a lot of things. And we were able to get back to connection, which I think anytime you're able to get back to connection, if you've had connection completely cut off in a relationship and you're able to find your way back, that's a good starting point. Even if it's not from a healthy, even if there's unhealth still involved, at least you're able to get back to some form of connection, which we were able to do. The problem is is that I was so deeply unaware of myself, and so. just like I did not know what was ever going on inside of my heart and inside of my emotions, so I never actually changed. You know. And so it was, it really genuinely, when I processed that season from this end, it feels like we cut the weed off with a lawnmower. And so we had a season where it felt like everything was good and back to being good, I mean, how long did that season last three years maybe? Well, but four things started getting bad again. That's the thing though, is that, is that I, you know, it did, you see progressively as time goes on and I'm doing better and better, our relationship gets better. So that's to you. It proved to me, I'm the problem. I was the problem the whole time. And if I prove that to me, yeah, and if I can just, if I can just learn how to always be stable and okay and positive, then I get connection and then we're good. And we did enter into a lot of pressure. Yeah, but I didn't realize that at the time. And, and, and things did start to get good. The band started making more money and, um, we got our own place and our finances started to stabilize a little bit. And we entered into this really great season. And, and I kind of have a second honeymoon phase that was really nice. Once we got our own apartment for the second time, and we were able to get all of our stuff out of storage and we had, it kind of felt like we went to our little house again. You know, it felt really good. But I think for me part of the problem is that, and this is, man, this is just so, so unbelievably messed up. But part of the problem is because of the way everything went down, I never, we talked about this last time about how like you weren't enough for me. But part of the problem is because of how much ownership you took and how much better things got because of that. I, it wasn't until years later that I actually recognized that I still wanted and valued the band more than I wanted and valued you. Right. So like you were a part of my life, but everything I was doing was all hyper focused on the band. Yeah. Well, and you see these conversations that would pop up periodically where I go, hey, like will you just pray and see like I still am really struggling with the band? Will you just pray and see if you feel like you're still supposed to do this? You know, and you were always really kind to me like, yeah, I'll pray. I mean, I just don't really feel like I can't see anything else. And I'd be like, oh, hey, you know, which is there's a really spiritual card there that I just want to throw out. I think you guys are highlighting on some major themes. I just want to kind of point out. Yeah, go ahead. Most marriages people blame the other person and are like when they're fine, I'm fine. Yes. That's very common in most people and people are terrified to validate the other person because they're terrified. Absolutely. Exactly what Johnny did is what will happen. If you start to validate somebody, they will then be like, yeah, it is all your fault. And that's what happens when you learn to validate without having boundaries, without being powerful and without having a voice or a sense of self and understanding what's actually going on inside of you. Yeah. And because I had I know what was going on inside, if I would have had the tools I have now back then, I would have understood what was actually happening and been able to communicate from that place. Absolutely. So I just love saying all of that. But then I think the other truth that we're just talking about, Johnny, is you being, I actually don't remember what they mean. Let me add this. I wanted it. Thank you for saving me. One of the things that a counselor of ours said that was really brilliant years ago. She said, she started having conversations about how we co-created this. And I thought that was such powerful language. And like, even when in our ownership, how did I co-create my portion of this? And that became, I even heard you, Johnny, talk earlier about like your grief about what you created inside of it. And I think that when couples are walking through the process of really reflecting on themselves and taking ownership, I think that that being a staple inside of their language, how did I co-create this experience? Starts relieving a lot of it and takes a burden off off of having to be the source of all the problem because then it gets rid of all the villains, right? The minute you say co-create. Yeah, I'm fully part of the create. We're both part of this. I love that. That's such good language. It really is. Well, and I think even in our situation, it's interesting because on the surface, I'm actually a very, I'm actually a very deep feeler, even though I come across as being really dissociated and shallow, but I feel things really deeply. And as we've begun walking the process over the last four or five years of healing some of this stuff, what's become really apparent to me is that although on the surface, I always thought it was P.C.'s fault underneath the surface, my biggest fear was always that she was actually right and that I actually was a screw up. So good. Yeah. You know what I mean. And so I think that sometimes you can mask your deepest fear by blame shifting it onto the other person, because especially if you're not in touch. And that's once again why it's so important to go through this process of getting in touch with what's actually going on on the inside of you, because it's so easy to take what you're feeling and then shift it onto the other person. And now, I mean, we had a conversation in the last year or so and I just broke down weeping because I'm like, all I ever wanted to be was like a good guy. Like all I ever wanted to be was a good husband and a good dad. Like that's what I dreamed of being since I was a little kid. You know, of just being like a good guy who loves the Lord and who loves my wife and takes care of my kids. And my deepest fear this whole time has been that what you're telling me is actually true. Yeah. We're all tyranny. I can feel your tenderness over there on that. Well, I think that was a cool moment and we'll we'll touch on it later, but I think it was a cool moment because when you broke down and you were able to share with me your deepest fear, I came in and I was like, you are that guy. Like you actually are an amazing husband. Like your fear about yourself isn't actually true. And when I look back at the pain that you've caused me, I don't see a screw up. I see a bad guy. I don't see a bad guy. I don't see a villain anymore. I see a guy who actually really loved me and was trying to figure out how to make it work. And you are that guy. Like you are an amazing husband. You are an amazing dad and I'm so proud to be married to you. Yeah. And the truth is in that season and one and one of the reasons why I regret that season, even though it was a good season, is because I would say that neither one of us got to a point where we actually were heart connected in a vulnerable way. Or safe, actually safe. Where where you could come in and be like Johnny, like, you know, you could communicate vulnerability and I could actually be aware of what's going on inside of me and be like, I'm really scared right now. You know, there was no vulnerable communication. There was no. And so I think that we never actually got to a point of connection. We just tried to manage our circumstances. Like we didn't ever fix the hole in the ship. We were just bailing the water out. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And that's it was like a band-aid. And that's where you see, because that's where you see that, you know, we're doing great. We had this really awesome season and we both feel like we're supposed to start having kids out of that season. Because it felt like, okay, we've been married now. What? Like six years? Five. Five years. And things are stabilizing now. And I had decided I'm going to live in Wisconsin. Like it's going to be okay. I'm going to face my fears and God both, God spoke to both of us randomly one night, the exact same thing. And it was that it was time to start having kids. Unfortunately, me getting pregnant was, first of all, the season before it was really hard. And I, you know, couldn't get pregnant. And that was really scary. Abby and I had had a falling out during that season, which was really hard. And we were able to, you were diagnosed with PCOS. So you didn't even know if you could get pregnant. Yeah. So it was scary on a lot of levels. And then Abby and I had a disconnection, which was really hard. And then we repaired, which was awesome. And I finally got pregnant and then had the worst pregnancy. Oh, yeah. No, to me. And your pregnancies are horrible. Yeah. And well, and you were the primary breadwinner at that point. Like you were making more money than I was making. Yeah. And I worked, I kept working the entire time. I mean, I think I grew up in every gas station bathroom on the way to shoots because I did hair and makeup for like photo shoots and video shoots. I threw up in every gas station bathroom in Wisconsin and Chicago. It was so horrible, but you see our connection start to deteriorate. And maybe, Johnny, you can share how that impacted you and what happened out of that. Well, I think that the really good season that came before getting pregnant, it's just the same problem that we've had our whole life before then and since then, which is me going around trying to fix things by fixing the circumstances and so the reason that our life was good is because the circumstances were good. That's what you guys believe in. We have plenty of time. Yeah, that's what we believed. Yeah, there was less conflict because there was less stress and we had money and we had a place and we had friends and all those things, but we never dealt with the issue. So once Peatsy started getting really sick, I mean, I just, I think in the moment when we got pregnant, I actually doubled down on trying to make the band work because I think that I thought this has to work. Right. Just a subconscious element that I only have recently discovered that I, the more sacrifice that we made for the band, the more desperate I became to make it work. Totally. You know, and I actually was having a conversation with one of the guys from the band a couple days ago and just kind of tell it because we haven't talked much since the band has been six years since I left and just telling him kind of how bad it was the last couple years and how I really should have left earlier. And he was like, yeah, you were crazy. Like you worked so hard all the time. Like you were, you wanted to make it work more than the rest of us did, you know? And I think there was an element of that because I knew what the cost had been for Peatsy and for myself. And I was so desperate that that would not be invained. Obviously, that's all subconscious. I have no idea what's going on in the moment. But as Peatsy begins getting sicker and sicker and I'm touring while she's home sick working, I mean, I just, I started to disconnect emotionally from her and all of the progress that we had made because it was so much based in circumstances started to go away. And in that, I had always had issues with porn, you know, on and off, but it had always been a very honest and open thing between us. We were very honest without shame. Yeah. If I would look at porn, I would tell her and we, you know, it was, you know, just a thing that was in the open. And in that season, I started looking at porn and I started lying about it, you know, because I think I just felt so guilty about where she was at. And I mean, there was a, from that point, because when you got pregnant, that would have been 2012 and I left the band in 2015. So there was like a two and a half year period there where you see me slowly just, what's the word, is digress the word. You see me just slowly digressing into more and more porn. And then I start drinking and then I start drinking even more. And I'd always, I'd always smoked a little bit, but I started smoking all the time and lying to beauty about it and hiding it. And so you kind of see me, I mean, there was a point, I guess this is a little later. This is after Yano was born, but there was a, there was a season where I would start drinking at noon every day for like a long time, like for probably maybe a year. Like I would literally, I would start drinking at noon. And I wasn't drunk. Pizzi, I mean, I would start drinking, I had no idea that you were drinking. She would have no idea. So I was, I was, I was, I was, I was a blackout drunk, you know what I mean? No, you were just trying to cope with life. I had to have, I had to be buzzed in order to take the edge off at all times, you know. Well, I'm part of it too. Go ahead, honey. Oh, I was just going to say, and I think in the moment, I don't know, I think you see this with people who end up doing really, really terrible things that sometimes they start getting in and then they get a little deeper in. And then they just keep telling themselves, I'm going to dig myself out of this hole. I'm going to dig, I'm going to fix this like, I'm going to work harder. I'm going to make the band successful. This is going to work out. We're going to, and the, the harder I tried, the deeper the hole got, you know, yeah. And I think what you see is, you know, you would try so hard to make it work. And there was success. You guys had a number one single. You got signed to really good, we had a number one Christian rock single, let's be clear about it. It was, it was big for what, where you guys were playing, where you guys were in. We were playing arenas to 5,000 people, it was, it was going well. There was legitimate success, and, and as we get pregnant and you realize, oh my gosh, my wife is really sick. I can't work. I have got to make this work. And so you, you completely disregarded your heart. You dug your head, you put your head down and you did what you had to do to try to make it work into survival, you went into survival, and you shut down towards me and you shut down towards life. And probably all, all people, yeah, you shut down in life. And I think I could feel it, but I was so sick. And then when Yana was born, I mean, the sad thing is is like, when Yana was born, you know, it was such a dream come true and we were so excited and so happy and, yeah. You know, but then, you know, night to Yana started screaming and she just didn't stop. And also during this time, my, my mom got really sick, so my mom was going to come out and help us in Wisconsin, but she got sick to the point where I thought she was dying. Yeah. So I thought I was losing. So when Yana was born, I was very alone. And Johnny was on tour and he was, I was on tour when Yana was born. You weren't, but like two weeks after you went back onto her, sorry, I just wanted to be clear that I was there for the birth of your daughter. Yes, you were definitely there for the birth of your daughter. And we are so happy. But she was such a hard baby and I was so alone again and so overwhelmed. And I'm dealing with all the postpartum emotions, you know, I had horrible anxiety, just riddled with anxiety. And yeah, you had this like, it is hard for you to leave the house. No, I could, I was, I was hard for me to leave. I was having irrational fears and I was by myself. And I think in some ways, I was like a flashback to the beginning and I could feel, Johnny. He was so connected to that little girl and he loved her so much, but he was not connected to me. You know, even the points are, I was like, hey, can you just be excited to see me do something that I was, you know, but I loved seeing him as a dad. He was amazing, he was just, you know, he would, when he came home from tour, he would jump right in and the only way I would sleep is, you know, he would take her driving in the middle of the night. That's the only way she would sleep. I mean, she was an incredibly difficult baby. And we didn't know at the time that she had health issues going on. We had no idea, you know, but it was, I don't even know how to describe it. I think in some ways, I didn't even have a chance to reflect on what was happening with us because I was just trying to make it. I was just trying to get there, just trying to make sure that, you know, that I could, I could make it and I was working still, you know, so it was just, it was a lot, you know. Yeah. And so I don't think I was even aware of how much you had disconnected and what was going on with you. You know, I couldn't even see it. Well, and I think, I mean, even in that season, you see how I still cared more about the band than I did about you because you see, and we didn't even mention this. But before Yana was born, like, there was some things like, like the band was going on tour in Denmark or something. Yeah, in Europe. And they were supposed to be gone. They're supposed to leave for Denmark for six weeks, like two months after Yana was born. And what did I say to you? I said, like, I just, I'm going any way, like, there's no, this is my dream. There's no way of missing it, even if we have a baby, and I remember just thinking like, I didn't even find it. Which by the way, can I, can I just say that is an awful thing to say and I'm really sorry about that. I know, baby. I know you are. And we've. And I was a stupid, scared kid, and I, that is one of, there's about five or six things that make me want to go punch myself that I've said over the years. And that's one of them. And I'm really sorry. I think though, even in that moment, I was really like, what the heck, like, you can't leave me here for a month, because they were going to be gone for a month or two. Like, you can't leave me for a month or two with a newborn. Which I didn't end up going. You didn't end up going. but I think I knew I was like, "Why don't you see this?" girl once you meet her you're gonna know you're gonna feel how I feel and so I didn't even fight you on it because I knew that once you met her you'd be like there's an away I'm leaving her for a month and you didn't you were like once you saw that little girl you were done you know and so yeah I mean it just was Johnny just started to deteriorate more yeah and we end up going into this season where and this is really towards the end of the band then you know as Yana grows like it just got harder and harder and I share the story of all this on a really early podcast that we did but I I was trying so hard to make it work because I at this point Johnny had put so much effort into the band that I didn't want to make it quit totally because I'm like you also didn't want it to be in vain yeah I didn't want it to be in vain and I'm like this is there's a lot of success happening here but I was still working and I was by myself and I have this daughter who's something is wrong with and I can't figure out what and you know I wasn't sleeping she was waking up every two hours for two years and I was working I was just exhausted and and I can tell he's hard and towards me but I'm like it's just hard we're just trying to get through it and you see like you know I went back to what I knew like I'm just gonna be thankful I'm gonna be happy I'm gonna choose to be happy and I grew this muscle just like relying on God if I wouldn't have had God I would have never made it through the season you know yeah but you know you see towards the end of it I would just start having these huge breakdowns and it usually would happen when he was on tour about I would make it like four nights and by night four I would just start like shaking crying because I was so at the end of myself and so exhausted and so just trying to make it work and I would just lose it I would just be like I can't do this Johnny I'm not okay I'm not okay I can't do it and I would feel the next morning and I knew that all the guys in the band were hearing me and I looked crazy and he thought I was crazy and I then wouldn't beat myself up like why did you lose it because in the next morning he would withdraw more he would just withdraw more I get so mad like why can't you just keep it together what's wrong with you why can't you just be grateful why can't you just be happy yeah and then I would call him the next morning and you would see me go into my survival response of fun and be like I'm so sorry I'm just really tired I'm really sorry yeah you know and you were always kind to me like it's okay I know that you're having a lot yeah you were pretty crazy but I would just swallow it I keep going like I can do this I can do today I can do today you know yeah well and that's why are you see for me why I regret so much the good season right because I had never actually developed compassion for you yeah I had just continued the narrative that you're crazy and I'm logical yeah and so in that season when you started falling apart subconsciously where I went was oh I've been here before right I've been here before and she'll snap out of it she'll be fine I just have to weather this storm because she's crazy yeah so I didn't even see you in that season I couldn't even I mean I tried a little but it's only been recently that I've been like heartbroken to the point where I like all it's very difficult not to hate myself for putting you through that because I didn't actually have compassion on you back then I know had I had compassion on you I would have moved heaven and earth to change things so that you would be okay yeah well that's where that's where you see how messed up it was that we didn't actually understand what was happening inside of us because had our intentions towards each other were good our hearts towards each other were actually so good the narrative that we believed about ourselves and each other was so wrong and created so much dysfunction and I think it's worth mentioning as well that man I am such a mess whatever I think it's worth mentioning as well that our whole married life including that season most of the people around us have viewed me as the sensible one yeah and you as the crazy one yeah and I gladly let them believe that totally yeah they didn't need to know that I was a borderline alcoholic and that I was looking at foreign and dissociated and addicted to all this crap they didn't need to know any of that because the way I showed up on the outside was I'm a good guy I love the Lord I'm trying to take care of this crazy wife of mine who's like just losing it all the time emotionally out of control yeah but the truth is and that's so messed up but I actually let other people have their perceptions and not step in and be like hey she's actually like really struggling and she's actually a really strong person right but it's you didn't step in because part of you I think didn't even believed it yeah I believe that she was the crazy one and so I was never able to be a loving compassionate husband yeah to her and I mean I am I just want you know I am so sorry and it is so hard for me not to hate myself like not my current self but it's so hard for me to not hate my past self because literally it is awful what I put you through I know but I don't hate that guy I know that makes it worse easier if you did well I love you so much and the truth is that you know had I understood what was actually happening inside of me it would have totally different I mean it's that's the truth for both people I think just because we're gonna have to wrap this episode up in a very emotional moment but I do I want to agree with what Johnny's saying it is very easy to find friends who confirm your confirmation bias and I think it is very true it's one of the things you struggled with the whole time as you knew that the people in the band thought you were crazy yeah and if you are separated or have disconnection with your spouse and the people around you push for the narrative about how crazy they are it confirms that yeah and it's very easy to do that which is why it's good having friends like me peace I have never gotten away with anything if I ever complained to Abby about a fight she's like okay what do you think you can take responsibility for I want the I want the bandwagon peanut gallery that just says yeah he's the word I think it's also Abby just to I know we're trying to wrap up but just to add on to what you're saying I think it's also worth noting that in that season we didn't really have anybody speaking into our life as a couple right and we weren't going through any sort of process of working towards emotional health or trying to figure our stuff out right we were just trying to do it all on our own so I mean pizza would talk with you yeah but as a couple like we weren't seeking help I wasn't seeking help with any of my guy friends like we weren't so there was no there was no we were on an emotional health journey together yeah pizza was on one by herself but I wasn't on one with her yeah and so there's no voice of reason saying hey Johnny have you considered that this might actually not be a good idea right which I think is such I mean I think there's I feel the same way about a lot of things in the beginning of our marriage like we didn't let people see what was going on enough for them to speak into it and if we would have it could have dramatically helped us absolutely but one of the things that's just remarkable to me is I'm listening to this story and it's amazing how far you've come and I it's it honestly makes I'm not even trying to sell the course I just want to say this because it's just true yeah like the difference between who Johnny is now and who he was three years ago is like a different person totally like your ability to sit in the pain to process through the pain to take ownership for the pain to not go into self hatred so much that you get defensive or blame to feel it to be compassionate like your ability to connect to compassion so different and yeah and I know because I saw you before the course and I saw you after the course and so I actually know that it works yeah if you'll do it and and what you said was so good and I wish that not only like could I have gone could I have learned this years ago and Justin learned it at our friends because then if you can get all of your friends to learn it with you then when you're processing your pain [BLANK_AUDIO] They can actually show up in that way instead of confirming what's happening and so I just I do feel really proud of you, Johnny, for how far you've come, but especially for people who are listening who just have a lot of pain that has come up and you're like, but my partner is not like that or I'm not like that or I don't even know how to do that that I just want to say that there is hope because this story is so beautiful. It is so human. It is so the story of most people, where there's like people who love each other so much, but there's just pain and filters and not an awareness of what's happening on the inside and whether you were a kid of divorce or a kid of parents who fall all the time or you're married or you've had relationships that go up and down like we can all relate to this story and there's so much hope like we haven't even gotten to the hopeful parts but I literally feel hope through every moment of recording because of how just different you guys are. I know. I know. It's a huge miracle. So on that note, we're going to wrap this up and we're going to keep telling the story, pizza and Johnny's story and it's just going to get better and better and so please share this. If it impacts you, I think one of the things that changes people's lives the most is stories hearing another story where you can find yourself and find hope in it. So share this with people who are single who are terrified of marriage because this will actually give them hope on the way through. Yeah. And sign up for the course if you want. Signups are running now and September 29th is when it's going to officially start and it's called the pathway to freedom. It's all about understanding your heart journey and discovering how your emotions are trying to heal you. Not hurt you. Work for you, not against you. So much of what Johnny said the whole time, he's like, if I would have known this, if I would, I didn't know what was going on inside me. I didn't know myself conscious. I didn't know. And that's the beauty of what we're doing. Yep. Yeah. You too. Thank you for your deep vulnerability. This is really cool. And Johnny, like Abby said, I mean, Abby just being moved by how you've changed. It's just radically different. I was just again sitting here in this episode again, being like, I'm so in awe of this shift in Johnny in this. Like there's a tangible such a tangible experience. It's like a 180 degree shift of how you respond and how you're able to communicate yourself and stuff. It's really cool, man. So all right, everybody. We're going away. Next week. Next week. Bye.