Sex Therapy & the Nervous System: Healing Trauma Through Intimacy with Ivana Kolakovic (Ep. 58)

Welcome to the Wellness Effect, where your hosts, Jensen, Kira and Lacey, and we're here to help you master the functional side of wellness with a little sprinkle of the unconventional. Everything is on the table around here, from deep dives into women's hormones and gut health, to building strong functional foundations and integrating mindset and lifestyle shifts that really resonate. We keep it practical, a little bit entertaining and definitely open-minded. And just a reminder, this isn't medical advice, just information and inspiration. Join us each week and let's create your own wellness effect together. Hey team, welcome back to another episode of The Wellness Effect. And today on the Wellness Effect, we are joined by a super special guest. Her name is Afana. She is a sex and relationship therapist who does somatic nervous system work. And we are unpacking why libido issues are almost never just about sex. And also the difference between spontaneous versus responsive desire and the small shifts that rebuild safety and connection when you feel disconnected. But don't know why. So we just finished this conversation and we are so excited for you guys to listen. Let's get into it. Okay, today it's just Lacey and I hosting. Kira isn't here, but we have a very special guest. We're joined by Ivana, a therapist from Catcova therapy. We don't often take guests on and we're very particular with who we do take on. But when Catcova therapy reached out to us, we thought it would be a really, really great fit. And we also thought that our viewers and listeners would get a lot from the podcast and the conversation. So we're really excited to dive into everything today and just have a good chat. So hello, Ivana. Thank you for joining us joining us today. Hi. Hi, you too. Thank you for having me. Thank you, Sarah. Avivni, I was mentioning earlier how lovely it is as a therapist to kind of leave the therapy room because you know, many people don't go to therapy or don't have access to therapy and things like that. So end up to have the opportunity to share the knowledge is always like pleasure for me. So thank you for having me. No, we're so excited. I was thinking about that this morning. How it's just, it is not very accessible and you don't often get the opportunity to talk one on one with a therapist in like a non therapy conversation. So I was a little bit nervous that you might be psychoanalyzing us today. But but it'll be good. Well, you can use like also, you can use me a little bit. Like if you have any particular questions that you would want to ask a therapist, you know, like you can use me as a therapist. A live therapy session for me and we're excited. Yeah, we know. I love that. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the type of therapy that you do because that is a big reason why you're here also. I love it. Yes. So I am registered psychotherapist here in Ontario. I am part of Kekova therapy practice. So we do specialize as a group practice in sex therapy and relationship therapy. I am also a somatic experiencing practitioner. So I do do a lot like nervous system work. So like trauma work, nervous system work, like bottom up approach to therapy. That's what I specialize in. I have a lot of training in sex therapy, different approaches to therapy. But I do work with a lot of like couples and individuals struggling with sex and relationships. Wow. That is perfect for us because we talk so much about nervous system and a couple episodes ago. Well, it would have been a while ago. We were talking about like, what does somatic therapy really entail because somatic is just like body, right? It is body in terms of psychotherapy. Yeah, it means like working with biology like nervous system. So if you think about like more cognitive or behavioral approaches to therapy, they target like our thinking, our beliefs, the meaning that we make with more kind of like somatic oriented therapies, we are working with the nervous system and the activation and the nervous system. So it's not about us talking about what happened, but it's more like how that impacted your physiology, your nervous system, how that still lives inside your body. Does it make sense? Yeah. Yeah. That's such a good way to describe it. And it's cool that you do both of those things and combine them. Yeah. I do think that both are needed, especially when we talk about trauma or something more complex. And I do believe that all therapists are so needed. You know, we sometimes need a little bit of meaning making and to challenge our, you know, perceptions or core beliefs and things like that. Sometimes we do need to go kind of deeper. You know, you wear the pain is and to kind of release that I do always love to myself even when I do consults with new clients like somatic is a little bit like fancy word like when you're here, kind of somatic therapy, what is that? It's really like recovering the wisdom of the body, you know, and kind of tuning into what we already know and feel and sense. So it's not very complicated. It's actually very simple, but if we are really stuck here, it can take a little bit of time to kind of come down and come back to the body. Do you think that it's good for someone to start with talk therapy and then go into somatic or vice versa or both needed equally maybe at the same time? This episode of the wellness effect is brought to you by lifestyle you. 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I think like if something big happened or you have a had very painful childhood or you know, things that were overwhelming repeatedly, it's good to start maybe with talk therapy. We talk a lot about that initial phase of therapy when we work on stabilizing, right? And we need a little bit of that prefrontal cortex, really through talking and mirroring and building the relationship to kind of like build that base. And then people can go into more kind of somatic work and work with the body and like deeper issues. Some people love somatic work right away because they are kind of more connected to their bodies. It just depends. Like I don't think that there's kind of like a right or wrong way is just like a preference and that's really a beauty of therapy. There's so many modalities because we are all different, you know, and like different keys open, different doors. You know, so you don't want to judge yourself. There's no kind of like hierarchy in terms of approaches. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I found for me like I think starting with a talk therapy was really helpful just to make me like more aware and recognize the patterns and get to that next state. And then it was like, okay, I can't talk about this anymore. I need to do some somatic. So no, that's awesome. Well, the main reason we have you here today is to talk about sex. So we're gonna dive on in because I'm excited to talk about this topic, but I'm interested to just hear a little bit of your story. Like what kind of made you go in that direction of specializing in sex therapy over the other ones. Do you have any like story that kind of made you result there? I do feel that as trauma therapist, we talk a lot about pain and suffering and trauma and kind of heavy stuff. And I think that like sex and relationships are beautiful way to actually heal trauma too. So yeah, that was my kind of way to access sex therapy and that entire field because I don't think that there is a lot of conversation about joy and pleasure when it comes to like trauma healing. So that was kind of my my trajectory, I guess. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. One of the questions I did have thinking about this before we got into it is like, what is one of the more common themes that you see when couples come in for both couples relationship therapy as well as just like sex therapy in general? I do work with many people. And as I said, many people, I mean, we're all different. So I can tell you a little bit about what the themes are. When it comes to sex therapy, like many people struggle with low desire. They come to therapy and they're like, you know, I've been with my partner for 10, 15 years. And I feel sexually disconnected. Like, what do I do? What is wrong with me? Is there something wrong with me? There's the first question. Is there something wrong with the relationship? What do I do? Many people experience a lot of unfortunately still in this day and age when we have kind of like a almost like hyperproduction of, you know, justification. And like there is a lot of sexualization of everything. But many people still experience a lot of like sexual shame, you know, and that's connected to like body image issues, right? And like internalized ideas around sex. Sometimes it's simple as like lack of like good sex education, you know, things like that. But to for people, sometimes it's just important to know that there is a space where they can openly talk about these things, where they don't have to feel shy about where they can kind of name these things that they don't necessarily talk about with their friends or partner or things like that. Many people struggle with when it comes to relationships. Though, yeah, there's so many. There is, for example, a desire to scrap and see that couples specifically come in to work on like one partner has stronger desire. The other one has like a lower. So then there is a lot of negotiation. So I mean, now I'm thinking I really work with a lot of people. So like there's so many things that people want to address. And that's beautiful. Like there people want to talk about that. People sometimes experience pain, connected to sex. People sometimes want to explore different kings and sexual preferences. Sometimes they are questioning their sexual identity. Right. So that changes over time. So it's not just about sex and sexual desire, but it's about like sexual identity. And I think that's interesting too because a lot of people come to you. Like you said, they're they don't have desire. They like feel like they have low libido. They don't know what they like. They don't know what their partner likes. What do you do you find there's any commonalities into like what the root of the problem is versus just like sex itself? Yeah. So sex itself is rarely the issue. There's so many things that can be at play. I mean, that's why I love therapy because you sit with one particular person and then you untangle the history you talk about history, you talk about the relationship, you talk about physical health, you talk about mental health history. So we with every individual, we are kind of trying to see what contributes to particular sex related child and the their experience. So I wouldn't say there's kind of like a common thing. What I can say is that many people kind of go into that like what's wrong with me. You know, that's something that I hear all the time when they are struggling with something related to sex and that kind of shame and self blame then inhibits curiosity really. So like we have to always work with that first layer of shame and kind of engaging with that person. I mean, we try to engage them in really like thinking creatively about this and thinking in kind of way that is integrity. If that makes sense. Do you find like when people come in with like one certain theme like let's say two people come in that you typically see is there a certain group of people that you see and when they come in and they're kind of struggling with a certain thing but maybe their communication is good. Are you like okay, we're going to be able to make make this work. On the other note is there sometimes couples that come in and the way that they're describing the problems that they're going through. Is there ever a point where you can kind of tell right off the bat like this might not be just like the right fit. Does that make sense? Right fit in terms of them being together. Yeah, yeah, sexually and together. Okay. Oh, okay. Yeah. I see what you mean like in terms of compatibility. Right. Yeah. You know in a couples therapy and relationship therapy, we do believe in relationship growth. Right. So that is the kind of like foundational idea that we operate from. So if you come to me with your partner and you are kind of like I want to leave this relationship because I think that because we are struggling in sex, the relationship or me being in this relationship and being with this particular partner is a problem. I do usually slow you down to see if there is some kind of pattern. Sometimes we think we can kind of get rid of the pain or the challenge by exiting the relationship or changing the partner. Right. But that can be in many cases kind of like not necessarily avoidance strategy, but it doesn't fix the thing because then you leave that partner. You're in your next relationship. You encounter the same thing. And that's why we kind of believe in relationship growth where kind of we work with you to work on the challenges that you have with a particular person that you are with. Right. And we believe that people can change people can grow relationship change relationship grow. Sometimes though people try to hard like I can help her that too. Right. Like they overstay and it's almost like trying to lock the door that is closed for them and because they don't want to let it go, there are too many like similar values or they build family lives together. So it's a lot to give up. Right. So they kind of overstay and they become a little bit like yeah they suffer a lot. So sometimes it is good to actually let go and start something you again individual approach. Depends. Yeah. Not a one size fits all obviously for that one, but I was watching a show and there is a they're going to couples therapy and it was a reality show. And I'm like I wonder if this therapist is just thinking like what are you guys even doing here? Like just give it up. You know, I say that to people like if they come and you notice that there's not enough love and connection between the two of them. Sometimes like couples therapy, you know, it's just that I don't want them to raise their money. You know, and to do that. Like we want to see what is actually there that links them together. You know, and then we can work on particular issues. And then if that is the case, the therapy can focus on on coupling, right. And everything has its purpose. But yeah, I totally get it. Yeah, break up. I want to go back to something that you said at the beginning about sex being like a place to heal and like a healing container. Can you expand on that a little bit or how you see people using sex in their relationship to help heal parts of them or from past trauma? I think when you have a very good relationship with your partner, when there is a lot of safety, a lot of communication, a lot of trust, sex can be a place where you experiment, right. So when you think about nervous system, sometimes we get stuck in that sympathetic, right, feeling, feeling anxious. Sometimes we are more in pairs in pathetic, like this engaged a little bit of that depressive state, right. And in the middle, you have a ventral, which is the goal, kind of, right, especially for healing, for feeling joy, for like dealing with stress on a day to day basis. So ventral, is about venture estate, is about connection and play and engagement. And when it comes to sex, it does kind of belongs to the ventral capacity. Again, the sex has to be within the containment of the safe relationship. Right? When is a lot of security and safety. So I think in that way, it can be very healing. Like people can kind of like bring out different parts of their psyche. They can feel safe sometimes for the first time. They can experience belonging for the first time. They can be held fully on kind of the render to that for the first time. Like there's so many beautiful ways to work with the body within sexual play that can be healing. Yeah, I love that because I don't even know if I read this or listen to podcasts or. But a lot of times like for people it's even like either a sense of control or being able to like let go of control based on what may be happened to them in the past. If it was a situation where they had zero control, they can kind of like take that power back when they are with their partner in the bedroom. And then also vice versa, like completely be able to like let go and to trust. And so yeah, I've seen that so interesting and cool. If you can create a container like that. Do you have like maybe one small shift that couples can make that helps immediately with creating that like sexual connection that's and safety. Yeah. I think that safety and trust they're built built over time. Yeah, so you don't want to rush. You want to take it slowly. You want to get no person. So like safe sex belong with somebody like in a relationship with somebody where there is a lot of safety and a lot of trust right sometimes we. Get disconnected even in very safe relationships right because of daily stressors burnout things like that like we can get a little bit disconnected. And if you're asking about how to reconnect within already established good safe relationship. There's so many ways I do always encourage people to use their relationship as a resource for nervous system regulation. When we talk about nervous system regulation. We always talk about correlation. Like regulation does not exist without correlation. When you think about that developmentally like we learn to regulate by internalizing our parents. You know like we you know love ourselves in the way our parents love us and that creates the capacity for self regulation really so good relationships where we can feel safe. Where we can feel seen where we can feel trusting where we can feel nurtured are so important for our self regulation. So if you feel stressed out very stressful day going through something that is a little bit overwhelming use your relationship to regulate how we can do that. I mean there's so many ways I think in couples therapy we work a lot with helping couples build that capacity and tools to reconnect. We talk a lot about bits for connection right and it just depends on you and you know your partnership. But you want to you can signal that you want connection through play through humor through teasing through joking but you have to slow down right. When you look at your partner you have to kind of like see that you have to take that moment and take that little pause. So you can kind of leave that like stressed out state and come back into the presence of the connection. I do that constantly with couple sometimes people come in to therapy session and there's so much happening. So all these like noise and fury and they just sit down and they talk and I just interrupt them and then I say okay look at each other just for a second. And you can see like in the moment what happens is they're just like oh okay. So it's kind of like just interrupting that like a virtual activation that we all can resort to especially I mean in this day and age you know when we have so many responsibilities and like so many things are run our place with everything that is going on in the world you know like it's so important to nurture these moments of connection. Yeah and just slowing down we have a lot of parents and like moms I think that listen to this podcast and Kira who isn't here I'm sure she would want me to ask something along these lines but like when you have kids I feel like that adds an extra layer of complexity and difficulty to slow down and just see each other. So what how does that change the advice that you give couples when there are kids involved. Yeah that's a big transition for relationship and for individual right it's a big transition that impacts the body the environment the daily functioning like everything changes. So first people want to be very compassionate with themselves like they have to acknowledge that things have changed you know some people come to therapy they do know that maybe having a baby have impacted their own sexual drive or the relationship the dynamic between them and their partner. And they feel a lot of shame you know and they're like I'm not showing up in a way that I want to show up you know and it's just about acknowledging that life has expanded you know you cannot some people want to resort to who they were before having a baby you know and kind of like having that as ideal that they want to kind of attain. Again it's not something that is actually attain them also it is our coming back into this new reality you know and acknowledging that new reality and maybe grieving like the losses and the sacrifice that we have to make. Because we decided to have a child you know so life expands in certain ways but we also lose something because we're parenting there's so many responsibilities right and to say no you can just do everything and you can you know be mom and whatever be perfect in the same way you were 10 years ago like it's just not realistic. And we have to sometimes let that version of ourselves go and that takes a little bit of time and adjustment you know so a lot of work is about that and helping people to come into the new reality and then to see what supports they need because it does take a village. You know it's actually with babies and kids and moms feel especially sometimes so alone in that you know depending on how much support they have and can get then we can work on kind of like targeting what is happening in terms of their sexual desire. Many people think that just because they've been with their partner for I don't know five 10 20 years they will naturally not feel attracted to them anymore sometimes it's just a context like our sexual desire is so dependent on the context we are right if you're holding your baby and baby is crying all night of course you're not going to feel. You know like you want to have sex with your partner you know so again just having that compassion for yourself and acknowledging that it's not you for this new environment and context can help you then work with creating a context that can create something that we call responsive desire many people believe that our sexual desire and that's kind of like more male dominated you. View of sexual desire they believe that sexual desire is spontaneous right with just like always want to do it you know when it's actually responsive we have to. we are responding always to the cues in the environment. So, with many couples, what we work on is kind of like creating an environment when their sexual desire can emerge. You know, sometimes that's like going on more days or creating more time alone if that's possible in any way. But again, these are kind of, it just depends on a couple. I think when they start to actually communicate and slow down and see themselves, then they discover the ways in which they can kind of reignite their desire and reconnects, actually. Right. And just really slowing down altogether, I feel like it comes back to as well. You mentioned just the two different kinds of couples, like this more like spontaneous versus the, I don't know what the other word. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Like, how often would you say like those two match up in a couple or is it typically you're mostly going to see in male-female relationships? The man is the spontaneous, whereas the woman's more responsive, or is it sometimes not that way if that makes sense? It is actually a myth that we all kind of like learned from, you know, movies and pop culture and things like that. A lot of research and cat is doing the research at York, particularly about this, has come up about the importance of responsive desire. So when you think about sexual desire, again, because of these images that we all rub with, we think that the sexual desire is spontaneous, you know, that we can just feel in and feel the need to have sex, that we can feel turned on without any kind of context that we are in and paying attention to the cues within the environment that we are in. Spontaneous desire is there, but it's not something that often sustains the relationship. So when we talk about desire, these days we are talking about paying attention to what we call responsive desire. Like there is, if you expect from yourself after a long day of work, let's say, the just come home and you feel kind of like always ready to desire your partner, you are setting yourself up for a failure. It is very important to acknowledge your emotional internal context, like where you are emotionally in terms of your activation, right? Do you feel burnt out? Do you just had a meeting with bars that were highly stressful? Did you just experience a major loss, you know, like that emotional context, but also like what is happening in the environment? These environmental things are sometimes subtle. Like, am I thinking about the dishes, you know, that I have to do? When I turn that off or do I have to clean those dishes and then I can let go and come back to the relationship. Like our brain is constantly scanning for environment. What turns us on? And what is turn off, you know? So we talk in sex therapy about accelerators and breaks, you know? So if there are too many things that turn you off, you want to first take care of that. So your accelerators, like can take over and you can engage in sex if you feel like, and doesn't make sense? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because it almost, it sounds like two, like it's, always comes back to like your communication with your partner and are you able to communicate? Hey, I've got 40 bricks and no, adventures or whatever you call that. And so I think even like for people listening, even if it's, you can't communicate that or, but even creating different environments, which kind of shows where you're at in your, you know, I mean, like, oh, maybe if the lights are down, when you come back, you're come home, that means I'm in the mood. Or maybe if I turn this red light on, then that means I'm in the mood, like different ways to signal to your partner. And I'm speaking more to women, I think, because I'm just assuming that we are more responsive to desire than men in like a very general sense. Is that right? Would you say that's right? I don't know the research, but probably, yeah. I think men are also very attuned. It's just like there is that concept of, you know, masculinity that it's kind of like they have to perform, right? And again, that's another story. But yeah, think about the metaphor of accelerator and breaks. Think about like our sexual desire as like car, right? Like sometimes there are environmental things that we have to pay attention to like unwanted pregnancy or unsafe sex that function as a brick, right? And sometimes there are things that turn us on and that kind of happens all the time biologically in our nervous system, right? And those are accelerators, right? There is a cute person or a nice smile and things like that. So when it comes to like nurturing sexual desire, we want to know how our own system works. What turns me on? What is a break? Yeah. Yeah. And I, so I think it'd probably be good for people to know what turns them on and what's a break because I feel like that's probably a big part of the problem is even what you said. Like growing up movies, porn, pop culture, it's kind of like, and then people get stuck, I think in that doing the same thing over and over again, you kind of know what buttons to press blah, blah, blah. And so is that something that you kind of help couples do is come up with even like a list because I feel like so many people are so shut off from that part of them that they don't even know what they like or what they don't like because they've never practiced asking or saying no or whatever. It's just like the same thing over and over and over again or the way they do that. Yeah. Yeah. So they definitely do that like identifying what turns you on, what feels good. And also what creates that shutdown, no response. Like both are equally important. Some people have very sensitive breaks, for example, like everything turns them off, you know, and then they have to not only identify what is good, but also what can interrupt me when I feel good. If my breaks are very sensitive, you know, I have to kind of work on removing them first. So I can tune into pleasure and joy and things like that. So it's kind of both. Yeah. It's also like coming back into the body. I think that especially within this culture, we don't do that often. Many people spend a lot of time in their heads, right? And many people are disconnected from their feelings. You know, I feel anxious. How does that feel in my body? I feel sad. How does that really feel? Like they kind of know it here, but they don't know it here. And to have pleasurable, playful sex, you have to be in your body. You know, so a lot of sex therapy is about recovering that capacity for people to come back and to feel safe and to enjoy themselves without kind of like being stuck here, thinking about this is boss, do I look good? All these things, you know? Yeah. And I think also something that I find interesting is like understanding those things that we don't think of like with breaks and accelerators. Like, I think you mentioned this, but like if you come home and the dish washers and unloaded, like that can be a break that is just like, now I'm annoyed, like nothing's going to happen. And so like acknowledging that and then like Lacey's kind of been saying, and you is being able to communicate that and not just expecting that your partner knows that that's what's going on in your body, right? Yes. Communication is so important. People feel shy to be vulnerable. Like that's a lot of like, couple of relationships work with couples. Like communication is about feeling. open to be vulnerable and honest about what is happening for you. And also sharing your preferences, your nose, your yeses with your partner, like that really builds that ventral container that I talked about and then you can lean into that play and spontaneity in a kind of more joyful way. Yeah, and like we mentioned, I can't remember if we were recording or not, but we work with women like helping them get to the root cause of hormone and gut issues and what we hear a lot is just that like they're not confident with how they look and it impacts their libido and their sex life and stuff. And so do you like how does body image anxiety affect just your presence and anxiety during sex and do you have any like pointers, even if you're working towards feeling better and looking better, but it's not your current reality. Like what are some easy, maybe small shifts that people can do to get that back without just waiting until that perfect day where they feel perfect and beautiful. Which might not come. I think we are all beautiful at different stages and I think that people have to work on that and like self acceptance, right? And sometimes they are scared if I accept myself fully the way I am right now, I want feel motivated to like work on myself or to support myself in different ways, right? So they're kind of scared that they will lose motivation and to change. But what we know really is like the moment you fully accept yourself or who you are in that particular moment, the change happens organically. And then you kind of reach out for support, but it's not coming from this fear based thinking or feeling inadequate or feeling like ashamed and things like that. Yes, body image is always somehow part of couples work and sex therapy work. Many women unfortunately feel self conscious. I think we all internalize these unattainable idealized beauty standards, right? And it's so difficult to then if we feel self conscious like a drop into the body and enjoy yourself the way you are, right? And give yourself permission to enjoy because you think only certain bodies are allowed to enjoy. I do think, yeah, go to therapy. That's my quick. Like there are things I think number one for me is self compassion. Really like I always tell people and I sometimes do that in therapy like look at yourself in the mirror. They hate it always. Like because there's out that first wave of like I don't want to look at that, look at this, look at like whatever the name, all the imperfections, right? But when you wait a little bit and you stay and you find your way to yourself, then that acceptance emerge. And I also think that it is from that place of self life and self acceptance that we can actually then initiate change that is move over us. So getting to your body somehow, I think that is the most powerful thing that we can do like getting in touch with our bodies and learning to inhabiting them safely in a way that doesn't feel overwhelming and activating because then you will always find joy somewhere there. Yeah. I also just kind of tackling on to what Lisa said like we once again work with a lot of women who are dealing with like hormone and gut issues and just trying to take control of their health and we know obviously there's a huge correlation between our physical health and our mental health and not just how we look but our hormonal balance and how much we're exercising. How often do you see that and is that something you kind of like advise people on sometimes or can you notice those correlations or how does that show up in your practice? Yes. As psychotherapists we always kind of suggest that people have different practitioners on their team, right? Like I can work with them on like something that is more psychological sometimes and especially with sex therapy. Like we the first thing that we do is suggest that they go to their doctor and like see if they're underlying physiological things that are coming up and yeah people like you are so valuable because again it takes a village you know I can work on certain things but then again this person that I'm working with will have to reach out to you and see how they can get supported they need because we are all limited. I do think that many women are not still aware in terms of really like how hormones impact mental health. I think that only in recent years we started actually talking about that you know and there is more awareness especially about like menopause and paramanopause and things like that that has been like in the discourse like a public discourse only in recent years right? But it's so so important to talk about that especially because many women have historically been labeled as like two emotional hysterical like they're all these kind of like metaphors and narratives that kind of shame women and then when they feel overwhelmed they're kind of like hemahicraisy and then they talk to you and they're like no it's so important to kind of raise awareness I'm so glad the deaths happening yeah so thank you for doing that work. Well you said it takes a village. Yes no it does and it's always interesting to just kind of think because they're so interconnected of what did like come first because yes hormones impact are desire and our mental health and everything like that but then our mental health and our ability to process emotions and everything like that if not done correctly will manifest into gut issues so it's almost like everything is connected. Yes yes and the trauma work and trauma therapy like the there is so much more awareness how trauma directly impacts our bodies and that's why I love like some a somatic approach to therapy because it does work with releasing some of that excess energy that is now like impacting everything in our bodies. A somatic therapy helps you release that because that's coming from the past and you don't need that anymore you don't have to constantly feel overwhelmed or to have these spikes of adrenaline cortisol all of that like so yeah it's good work it's all interconnected and I think people more and more are coming to me saying okay I've been experiencing I don't know chronic inflammation or some kind of like health issue and I think it's actually the abuse that I want through but I was a child you know and it's not that I'm going to heal them like they are still working with other practitioners and doctors and all of that is just like we are now kind of working with this residue emotional impact that is stemming from there their childhood right and we can kind of let that go. Yeah and that's when change can really start to happen is when you're targeting it from both sides and not just one or the other. Yes. Another question just about trauma that I wanted to ask is like when people have that whether it's just like childhood trauma sexual trauma how do you see that showing up in the bedroom and what do you recommend in terms of like shifting out of that and working through that whether it is just like therapy or semantic therapy or whatever that might be. I think the first thing that I want people always to know that there is nothing wrong with them especially if they know that they've been through something traumatic you know we can experience all these symptoms that doesn't make sense you know and sometimes we can feel like oh my god what's wrong with me why am I like this so I always want to kind of like highlight that there is a reason why you're having certain reactions something is happening And we want to kind of explore where that may be coming from. So a lot of, again, compassion. I am not for pathologizing people, right? Like, and kind of labeling them. And you know, everything is now available online. Sometimes people, Google, they symptoms, and they come, and they already have a self-diagnosis that created a lot of shame, and then they feel stuck. And we want to kind of untangle that. I think that particularly when it comes to sex, like, if there is trauma in your history, your system, nervous system constantly feels overwhelmed, or shut down. Like, that's the impact of trauma. Like, we cannot be in the flow of life, but we resort to these patterns that saved our lives, probably, when trauma occurred, right? Some people go into that fight flight. Some people go into more kind of, like, disconnection, freeze. You know? But then these strategies that once helped you now become how you react to your environment in the here and now, and these strategies are not helpful anymore, you know, because you are not in danger. So a lot of work is about kind of, like, releasing or accepting or working through these outdated coping strategies, you know? And kind of helping the body come back into the flow. Sometimes you have to go into fight or flight, right? Sometimes you have to disconnect a little bit or go into that door cell, but you want to have flexibility. You want to have choice. So a lot of work is about, like, recovering that capacity to be present and have choice. So the tips, I think the biggest tip, actually, I have many people, and specifically many men, who come and they are dating or in a relationship with a survivor. And then they want to help. But they don't know how to, because they don't have the language or like, they don't have information and all of that. I think there has to be a lot of, like, education and normalizing with these experiences. So survivors do not experience being re-traumatized in these contexts again, you know? Like, so that new relationships can actually heal, because from what we know, from the research relationships actually heal, you want to, I constantly, like, provide a lot of this knowledge to people who are dating somebody who had sexual trauma in the past, how they can kind of support them, go through these waves, because, yes, maybe they're pregnant and needs a therapist and that's always good, right? But also we all can be there and be present in a way that is non-pathologizing, that is kind of, like, supportive, where we can see somebody's humanity, even though they're experiencing all these outdated reactions and emotions. I do not know if that answers your question. But yes. Yeah, I think the best thing, like, is not to shame yourself. You know, that's the first thing, like, not to think that you are crazy and that you reach out for support, that you kind of trust your body, like, even though it doesn't make sense in this context, it probably made sense in your past, right? And you want to kind of just work on releasing that so you can be more present and available. Yeah, and just not being hard on yourself, because it protected you at the time, but now it's no longer serving you and you can let it go. Exactly, exactly. I love that. Okay, we're at 55 minutes. Lisa, do you have any other questions you can think of? I have one. Ask it, ask it. Okay, what are your thoughts on open relationships? I feel like that's kind of a hot button topic. A button? I work with a lot of folks who are in open relationships, and Pauli Amaris. I'm going to give you the answer that I gave you. It depends on your relationship. What I love to say to people is like, if you want to open your relationship, because your existing one is not working, then that's not going to work. Right. You know, like, if you want to kind of like open it, because you're not satisfied in your existing relationship, and you use, you're using open relationship to fix your existing relationship, you will have to work on your existing relationship. But if you have a solid, strong, good relationship, and you want to expand that, there's so many beautiful ways to do that. There are safe, there are good, there are expensive. It can be quite beautiful. So that's kind of my experience. I work with many people who have been together for like 20, 30 years, and have decided like, you know, in their 50s or late 40s, that they want to open up their marriage, or like, there are so many versions and it's in all of that. Like, I'm just trying to because we don't have a lot of time. I don't want to go into details because there's so many arrangements possible. But it's kind of like, it can work. It's just like that sometimes people can use it as a way to fix their relationship. It can be also, it can disableize the relationship. I've seen that too. You know, like, there's so many possibilities. Again, it depends on the relationship that you are. Yeah, both the individuals as well. Yes. That makes a lot of sense. Is there something specific though that you're curious about? Well, Jen said in an open relationship. No, I'm not. I'm not. I could never, to be honest, that is not my personality. I would go crazy. And many people are like that. Yeah. And I can, I can very happily admit that. But I just wonder what the success rate of them is, especially. I feel like when it's like you said, they're doing it when they're younger to like fix something. Or I feel like a lot of the times just from what I hear and what I see. And this might come across as more like a judgmental standpoint. It's one sided. And the other person is just like agreeing to it. Because they think that's the right thing to do. So I was just more so curious if you see that. And what is the success rate? But I understand more of the older couples as well. I do see that. And what we are talking about has to be consensual. And since it has to be enthusiastic, you know, consent is defined as enthusiastic, yes. It's not, hey, can you give me permission to do this? I am going to convince you that this is good. Right. I have to actually enthusiastically agree. And I have present to your fears, to your worries, to your concerns. I have to hold space for that. And if that is not something where you want to go. And I'm choosing you, I have to grieve this part that wants to do it. Because I'm choosing you. Yeah. In this commitment. So again, there's so many possibilities. But what you are kind of naming, I think it's judgment that does happen. We want to give everyone the space to voice their desires and needs and then be negotiated. We cannot always have everything. That's what people have to know. You know, if I want to be with you and you are not comfortable with something or it's too much of a stretch and I'm choosing you, I will grieve this part of me. And because I know I love you. You know, and that those are again, this is a compromise or a sacrifice. However you want to call it that I make for this relationship. And we negotiate these things all the time. You know, if I want to have health, I have to grieve the fact that I have to wake up if I am in the world. You know, like we can't have everything all the time. Like we know that they have to choose and with every choice, there is some kind of loss and it's okay to sometimes like go because you gain this thing that you want and love. You know? Yeah. You know, it's just so interesting to me because I've always been super fascinated by them and interested in I've read books and I've, and I think for me the reason why I'm so curious about it is because I'm more on the like anxious attack. have done a lot of work to heal parts of that, but that still comes up. And so to me, it's like almost, it seems like what's unhealed in me to where that would create such a native like nervous system response to think of like my husband being with another partner that it almost like makes me curious of like, well, how are they doing it? Like what is happening? Like what's unhealed in me that would never, like be okay with that, you know what I mean? So I've just always been so fascinated, but I think when it comes down to it, I'm like, I don't know if I could ever do it, but I've always been super, super curious on that and almost wanting to for like the challenge, but that's probably just something about my personality. - No, but that's a beautiful perspective too. Like as I said, many people grow like through these arrangements, like there's so much expansion that can happen. They work through their jealousy. They work through their scripts around love. You know, do I feel that love is just this person and that's kind of like, there's no love anywhere else in the universe for me. Right? Like there are so many shifts that happen in the mindset, in the body when we work through these things and people really like kind of like solidified their relationship and like deep and really the intimacy, I am not gonna lose you even if you go away. - Yeah. - You still love me even if I go away, you know, like they build more of that security. - Oh, the level of like confidence and trust, I'm just like, maybe one day. - Exactly the way you think. - Yeah. Yeah, you don't have that. What, Jensen? - No, I don't. I don't have that desire to do that at all. - It's like when it becomes like, you know, we always talk about like zone of comfort and then you don't grow there, right? So you want a little bit of stretch, but you don't want stretch to be overwhelming. So you re-traumatize is you, so you have to go back into your zone of comfort, right? So like how much of a like a friction and like excitement and novelty you can tolerate really that. What's the bad? - I still get a little anxious when he like goes to the bar without me, so make me hold. He'll work on that first and then, and then open up. - Well, we're at the hour mark. - Yeah, that was good timing. Thank you so much for coming on today. That was a really good conversation and where can everybody find you? So we are in Toronto. Our website is www.cathcovetherapy.com and you can find us on Instagram. - Catcovetherapy. - Amazing. We have a lot of East coasters, so. - We do and I was gonna ask you guys offer a virtual sessions. - We do, we do. - Yeah, perfect. - Amazing. - Well, thank you so much for coming. Everybody that's listening, you know the drill, I won't do the full spiel, but make sure to download, click the bell, all of that fun stuff, support the pod and. - We'll put all her information in the show notes as well for you guys. - Exactly. - Thank you for having me. Thank you. - Yes, thanks for joining us. Bye team. 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