Seval Oz, Senior Executive Advisor at Pioneer Inc

(upbeat music) - Welcome to On the Move Podcast from Women in Automotive Technology. My name is Lissa Franklin, co-host of On the Move. - Hello, everyone, my name is Karol Nahahuelska and I'm your co-host as well. Welcome back to the show. - So Val Oz is a recognized global business and marketing leader in mobility, autonomous vehicles, and intelligent transportation systems. She was CEO of Vareema, a multi-sensor awareness platform powered by AI deep learning for autonomous vehicles. So I was previously CEO of Continental Intelligent Transportation Systems, a division of Continental AG. She served as head of global strategic partnerships for Google X's self-driving cars program, known as Waymo, where she supported global business and marketing efforts for Google's self-driving technology commercial launch. She was a recipient of the Women in Technology Award for Courage and Serves as an advisor to several boards, including high-near electronics, move.ai, health core, a national health education program for high schools, and endeavor.org, a global high impact entrepreneur organization based in New York City. She is a frequent speaker of women's leadership and technology. So Val has co-authored over 10 patents in vehicle delivery, consumer purchase systems, radar sensor fusion, and remote services. She received her MBA from Wharton Business School and her BA from Wellesley MIT in Economics and Political Science. Welcome, so Val. - Wow, thank you so much, Lisa and Carolina. I'm really thrilled to participate in the Women Automotive Technology podcast, and thanks for having me. - Well, what a interesting and kind of a luster of career you've had, maybe we could start by just talking about your background and how did you arrive and what you did, you must have had many different turning points in your career, but maybe you could just talk about anything that kind of led you to where you are today, some of those turning points. - Sure, well, on the character study in traditional studies and foundation don't set you up for a follow-through career. So the relevance of economics and political science and finance and self-driving vehicles. So I'll get to that in a moment, but my parents immigrated to the United States from Turkey and we were first generation the kids. So I think we all grew up with a very strong tug of war between accomplishments and success. And at the same time, a very loving and generous and accepting family, we were all high achievers, but I think where I kind of made my own way is I decided early on that finance, which was my first love, was sort of a more of a zero sum game. And I wanted to feel directly responsible for contributing to the technology that I was seeing developed on the West Coast. So I came to the West Coast in the late 90s and immediately got my foot, my feet wet in helping companies, technology companies, engineers develop financing capabilities for their ideas and their innovations. And we took a couple of companies public during that time, but my love really was in the technology field. And when I sold a small semantic search company called Cool that a bunch of ex-Google engineers and myself had developed back into Google, they asked me, if I wanted to stay in search, of course, I said no, and I just thought that might be the end of my career very short-lived, but at the time Eric Schmidt or Chairman sort of brought me into the fold and asked me to take a look at this new laboratory, which was being developed called Google X. And Google X at the time was sort of a triangulation of scientists, PhD students, and entrepreneurs. And in that vortex was this idea of creating moonshots. So instead of Google paying for super bowl spots, they decided that they really wanted to develop high impact technology in areas where they could make a difference. And self-driving vehicles, which was the one that resonated with me because all along, I'd always had this fear of non-motion, right? So I've been traveling since I was a kid. I live preferably every possible country that you could think of living in on all the different continents. And so I wanted to continue that pattern of movement in a way that would enable this in my lifetime to be an affordable robotic technology that could sort of solve the problem of human driving. And I always felt like, why should I have to be bother driving in traffic? Of course, everybody wants to drive a beautiful sunny day. I'm down the coast 101, but in terms of traffic, many of us would just rather sit back and enjoy the ride. So that was sort of my need to want to see this bootstrapped and airlifted. And I took on the responsibility at that time. We were only maybe 12 or 13 engineers from Carnegie Mellon, Berkeley, and Stanford. The pretty much the talent that had won the DARPA challenges that took place the decade earlier, Google had intelligently brought all these kids on board. And this was sort of our bootstrapped group. And I sort of stepped in to doing everything pretty much that the software engineering guys didn't want to do. So that's how I sort of back back into the group. And the rest is history. That's so interesting. Yeah. So you just mentioned Google self driving car. It's pretty much as you mentioned, it started with DARPA Challenge. And actually, there were some German manufacturers, car manufacturers that tried it way back in the days. But it is true that if the real start, I would consider a DARPA challenge and then what Google did under Google X and later Waymo. Over the course of years, since you've been involved in the industry almost since the commercial beginning, I would say, how do you see this industry changed? Wow. I mean, we're still as much of the work that we've done over the last decade, Carolina. We're still at the very, very beginning. In fact, we're at the preamble to the introduction. And in terms of how much work there has to do. Yes, I've heard this term. But when you're 90% in, you still have 90% of work to do. To go. It's that last 10%, which takes up 90% of the time, which is the edge cases and the tall engineering polls that are very challenging. And we don't even have the infrastructure set up for scaling this technology on public roads. So one of the things-- I think pretty much we all know how the technology has changed. So I'll focus on what needs to happen next if that might be useful for people. I think, if you think about technology of self-driving, it's really about movement. And it's not just movement of people and passenger vehicles. It's really about the movement of people, goods, and services. And at Google X, we focused on the hard problems of moving people around. At that time, that seemed to be the right perspective. But since then, you have companies like Amazon's Alexa Auto, which are concentrating on the commercial delivery side, which is a whole set of different problems involving backend logistics, understanding real time to delivery, optimization of routing. So it's a completely different stratosphere of how to apply self-driving technology to commercial use cases. And I think the e-commerce angle is going to multiply a lot faster than the passenger use case. And I think one of the reasons for that is because if you think about long haul movement of goods and services across highways, east coast to west coast, that's where the economics of having one driver or less, and maybe even two drivers less, going at constant speed on one lane, dedicated lane, with very little other distractions in the road, is a problem that can be solved with a very, very impactful economic reduction. And so this gives a lot of incentive for why we are starting to see a lot of the engineering taking place in the perception technology, moving to trucks, long haul vehicles, and e-commerce. But if you think about the scalability of this technology on public roads in America, we still have yet to have a federal automotive vehicle transportation policy, which designates how safe is safe enough on the software side. And also setting up the curbside assistance, drop off, pick up, intersection management, all of the things that need to be developed on the terrestrial road system. And I think this is really critical that we start thinking about the back end features such as teleoperations, which is remote vehicle management, which is something, for example, that federal aviation has had that we don't have. We need to have an eye in the sky that basically arbitrates between things like unprotected left hand turns, intersection management. What happens when a vehicle needs to limp home if there's a bug in the software system that vehicle needs to be grounded? These are the types of things where we simply can't scale without that teleoperations or remote vehicle operations presence in the sky. So these are a whole new different technology arenas that need to be sort of in place before we can even begin to think about scale. Makes sense, makes sense. So basically if I just to summarize, so the development of a vehicle itself changed, but then we need to catch up with all the other moving parts with the vehicle system, with regulations, and maybe with some other decent technologies or auxiliary technologies that will help make the self-driving really happen. Yes, correct. So you've had a very interesting career still ongoing. You've been-- we just talked just now about Waymo. But you've been CEO of a couple of different companies, and you started in finance, and you've moved into other areas. Along the way, and even now, I mean, have you had people that maybe you could talk a little bit about people you've worked with that have been influential in your career? Absolutely. I've been a big proponent. I went to Wellesley College, which is one of the most important women's colleges in America, even though it's the sister school to MIT. But I learned at a very young age that they're angel wings in heaven for women who help women. And so I was helped instrumentally, first by Megan Smith, who ran new business development for Google. Later on, became Obama's Secretary of Technology, who's an incredible woman, also an MIT graduate, and who's done a lot of work with the MIT Media Lab. She was a huge benefactor in making sure that I embedded myself in an area at Google and saw the beginning of the end of business development as it migrated into other areas of the company, and was one of the ones that pushed me into making sure that I had my head above the water. So she's continued to be a very strong active proponent and innovator in the area of making sure that as a country, America is head of the curve in innovation technology. Another mentor to me was Dr. Anna Patterson, who was the recipient of the Grace Hopper award, who was my first boss at Kool. She was one of the co-founders. And then she went over to back to Google and became a vice president. And I think senior vice president, and in search, she was one of the first women in search. And then later on, moved into Gradient to Run Gradient Ventures, which is the company that invested in Nareema. Or they found the fund that invested in Nareema specifically interested in AI, momentum in finding applications in different industry. And so yeah, I've been very lucky to have been helped by these two women that I continue to bring women on board and anything I do and everything I do. Because you need to sort of have that network and that build that camaraderie. And right now, I've been having podcasts across the board because one of the areas that I've been working very strongly is in digital transformation. Having worked as you said at CEO of a major German automotive tier one, Continental, we defined their back end open architecture system, create the data science requirements, and use container software for this. And what the pandemic has done is really more digital transformation leadership into a new type of leadership transformation, really resonating with all different industries across the world. So it's not enough to just be a visionary leader. You really now have to build the skill and the will to roll out in a very, very unpredictable environment. And you have to be politically smart and build coalition teams. So I think women are really good at building coalition teams and finding influencers. And for me, and automotive, usually I tended to be one of the only women in the room at my level. I was always encouraged to bring on other women, whether they be on the distribution side or in the supply chain or in the design side. I mean, very little on the fact that the person that created the first design of our Waymo closed-be vehicle, which was affectionately referred to as the quality car, was a Korean woman who came from Motorola Mobility and was with our team. I mean, YJ was one of the great, I think, hardest working people I've seen. And I always try to support people like that that were extremely instrumental in building and that don't have a lot of capability of talking about themselves or bragging about themselves the way probably she should have or we should have. Yeah, I really-- I like that. I like that the skill and the will and being able to-- none of us got to where we are without the help of others and being able to turn around and do that for other people is important. Yeah, I mean, you're contributing to the betterment of society in every way. So in every way that you can help somebody, I think you feel better about the collective capability and you feel better about why you're here. And nothing happens by itself. I mean, if you won the best award in the world and you're alone to celebrate it, it's kind of a downer. So the more people you can celebrate with, celebrate the wins, always take advantage of celebrating the wins, and commiserate and then, you know, misery loves company around the fails. And we learned to fail fast at Google X. It was one of the big teaching lessons I got working in that group was fast failing. Because if you think about it, we build confidence not by the success of the achievements that we have. We build confidence by being okay with failure, right? Because that teaches us to be resilient and to be strong and to overcome what we need to overcome. So I think one of the teachings that I give to young kids in high school when they're going about their world and trying to figure out what their next step in life is, is really to be okay with failure. And the sooner you are okay with it, the better off you probably are. So try and try again and experience as much as you can. You have plenty of time to focus. So, you know, make sure you find something that you love because the money will come. - Yeah, that's very good. I absolutely agree about the Firefly, right? The fact that it was designed by a woman, not too many people know about it, right? Yeah, at the same time, for such a long time, it actually was like the symbol of self-driving vehicle. Like if a journalist wanted to write about self-driving vehicle, there was no way that Firefly wouldn't show up there. So, I think this should be more advertised. 'Cause also I'm myself big fan of self-driving cars and I didn't know it until maybe a year ago. So, maybe she's someone to have on the podcast after me. - I don't really love it, we absolutely love it. - But, you know, if you think about it, some of the things we did were ingenious. I mean, number one, we made it look friendly. - Yeah, I love that. - That was a conscientious decision to make this because I remember when Sergei got out in front of that and he said, "Can I stand here?" Comfortably, I said, "Sure." Because if this car is approaching you and there's no driver, you don't want something looking terrifying, you want something looking fun. Second of all, we also thought about the fact that a lot of times, you could be carrying groceries. And there were a lot of wires and electronics at the car. And the last thing we wanted was the short circuit. So, why Jay came up with the idea of creating, you know, a front in the cabin, in front of you, to put two shopping bags, two basically two grocery bags. I mean, that was, I think, a novel on way of designing the vehicle. And then, thirdly, you know, we talked about things like infusion and making sure that the HVAC system had good smell to it because the last thing you want to do is get into a vehicle with someone else's, you know, left a smell of something E8, for example, she ate. So, these were things that, that why Jay came up with that, I mean, that are women kind of just thinking differently than the way men think, right? And we built this into the engineering of the designs, implementation, and I think, you know, I think it was very successful. - Absolutely, yeah, I absolutely, a nervous project. We'll definitely ask for, connecting us so that we can, we can work with it. - Sure. - Yeah. But moving on, because I can talk about this, you know, a little bit more forever, but moving on, you've mentioned, you know, the failures. So, we were wondering, you know, one way to approach any failures, to just say, okay, we failed and move on. But sometimes, you know, we all come across challenges, but they're not as easy to go around. Do you recall any big of your challenge, any big challenge, and how to do, you know, overcome it? - Yeah, I mean, one of our big, big challenges, which, you know, I think at the time, Chris Irmson, who was heading the project, was, you know, smart enough to figure out, was we had to make the decision about what to do with speed, because the faster the speed of the vehicle was, the more dangerous it would be, and the more it would result to, you know, a fatality, if the unfortunate tragedy happened, or it hit someone, and we saw other programs suffer this. And we did not want our program to be sunk because of, you know, one in a thousand probability that this might happen, although we had a very safe, testing program, and Google still does have, the most conservative program, I think, on the street. So, but I think Chris made the decision, coming back from one Christmas vacation, that we were gonna go slow speed. And some of the team had felt that that was, you know, we'd settled, we shouldn't, that we should have pushed the angle stronger. But I think, you know, I mean, it would seem to be a failure, or maybe a lack of courage, turned out to be the best move we could have had, because it allowed us to concentrate on the tall engineering problems, and focus on those edge cases, and focus on the software and the mapping, and the perception technology, which enabled us to get a lot farther, faster, had we not sacrifice the speed issue. So, it seemed to be a failure initially, turned out to actually support the program long-term. You know, there's, and you live with failures, I mean, that's why we have these stand-ups, which is, I encourage, anyone who's out there listening to constantly have stand-ups, which I think we had once a week, where everybody huddled together, and just talked, re-talking about, you know, some of the things we were concerned about, we wanted to raise. It could be anything from, you know, micro-kitchen stocking issues to, you know, a problem that they're suffering on the design side, to, you know, where we're gonna have our next off-site. But just to bring a sense of, you know, collegiate environment where people understand, and are reminded that they're all working together towards a common goal, because as performance dictates, our activity is on a given day, if we're not constantly reminded of that, we tend to lose, you know, focus sometimes in the sheets. So, yeah, these are small cultural nuances that, you know, I learned along the way that I continue to implement. I can, I implemented it continental, later in Arima, where, you know, you just basically wanna bring, an opportunity to bring inspiring leadership, and balance performance with, you know, with, with actual capabilities and with accomplishments. We, we talk about challenges, and I would say kind of our biggest challenge right now in front of everybody is the pandemic. You know, I don't, it's, it's incredible how we've had to, twist and turn, and you did mention about digital transformation. But maybe, you know, if you discuss just in terms of your own, personal perspective about the impact of the pandemic on, you know, business and the industry, not just right now, but, you know, what do you think it means, you know, over the next year and beyond? It has it, has it changed the way we're doing business, not just now, but longer term? What, yeah, what's the impact that you're seeing? You know, we've been preparing for this future that we slid into with the pandemic. We really just slid into this. We, a lot of us in, in our respective cycles of work have been preparing for this digital transformation. And it happened almost overnight. So what seems on the surface to be a very risky, uncertain, unpredictable scary environment is actually, in retrospect, going to be looked on in one of the greatest opportunities in our lifetimes. Greatest opportunities to change if we take on that responsibility. And I'm, I'm really kind of force feeding in my work, a lot of people to recognize this is a huge opportunity. We are rethinking pretty much every aspect of the way we do business, the way we rethink the workforce, the way we think about life space, the way we adjust to initial anxieties, education, healthcare, we have literally accelerated into the future. So what does that mean specifically for my area of interest and what does that mean globally? We really do need to set common goals as a society and probably globally. One of the strongest advocates and one of the greatest common goal we need to set is, is emissions standards and to reduce our carbon footprint. This is something that will, if we fall short of this expectation, it will virtually kill us. So what is used to be sort of discussed on playing fields and in political circles now has become a reality of, we could move into extension if we don't take care of this problem. So from my industry, we're not going to be moving less. In fact, I guarantee you there will be more vehicle miles traveled if you take the sum total of all the good services and people in the next decade than in the previous decade. So the pandemic, even though we're self-isolating, at some point is going to flip a bit and we're going to move into that equation. I guarantee you that. So are we ready for that? Are we ready for robotic vehicles going up and down your street neighborhoods, slow speed, delivering on notice your goods and services, your grocery, your groceries, your water, your tobacco, whatever it is that you need to sustain yourself. That means you may not have to go out to the store, but we need to have that digital fungibility between your contextual web and everything else that you need either come to you or if you actively want to go out, you can, but it needs to be able to at least function in your world. So that means we have very strong need for things like simulation technology. So continuously testing, pivoting to trucks and cyber trucks because we're going to need larger vehicles. We're going to have to see changes in the material science. We haven't seen, we're at the tip of the iceberg in this area. By material science, I mean commercial passenger vehicles will probably have to be lighter. To sustain long electric vehicle range, they'll have to have more absorption capability. So when they hit something like God forbid a human or a bike, they have to be able to capture that or transfer that energy and be able to reflect it at without a lethal tragedy. So basically maybe a fly paper on the vehicle or maybe some sort of more resilient vehicle covering. The complete cockpit experience is going to change to have more voice agent interaction rather than capacitive and touch screen. The delivery is going to rely on, for example, Amazon Alexa's Adora platform where you have drones delivering in rural areas. Companies like Tesla will probably have to create on the grid reusability of the vehicle. So as you're at work or as you're not using your vehicle, it gets transformed into a vehicle that somebody else can summon. And maybe that way you get revenue back for that. This is a huge opportunity to rethink the way we live. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm not showing away from this at all. Yeah, I think that it's interesting because like you said, the digital transformation, everything is just pushed faster. And I guess I have two questions, really. The first is, do you think that at least in the US, we are moving towards electric vehicles and we're trying to create the advancement in public transportation. But the pandemic, at least in the short term, may have an impact on people getting back into their own cars in terms of safety and things like that. But so I just want to know what you think about that in terms of overall transportation. And then also, I really liked what you were talking about in terms of where the industry is going. And specifically about kind of the industrials and the goods that are going to be delivered. And maybe you could touch a little bit beyond the US because, you know, in countries, whether it's China, Singapore, even, you know, in Europe, they have, you know, they have a different landscape, different regulations. So, you know, when you say, when you're talking about where the industry is going overall, I'd love to get a little internationally as well, too. - Sure. Well, yeah, just here, the first part of your question, I do think they move back to private vehicles will be short lived. Once this anxiety recovers, I think people will realize that if you can summon a vehicle within five minutes that takes you in a geofenced area that you've already paid a subscription for, let's say somewhat similar to your Amazon Prime subscription, you're now paying for vehicle or transportation as a service, as a monthly subscription, sort of like a utility, the way you pay for your water and your electricity. I think that people will highly depend on this form of movement. Yeah, you can have a car, a vintage car, and maybe another car. But the days of having per person, per vehicle are gone. The cost structure doesn't enable that anymore. The parking environment doesn't enable that anymore. Just the way we live doesn't support that vehicle per person use case anymore. And when you think about outside of the United States, I think about when we were first starting out about 10 years ago, one of the HR firms had a dinner and they asked everybody around the table, what do you think will be the first country that adopts high utility or unit sale of autonomous vehicle technology first? And I think I was the only person in room that said China. And the reason I said China, and I still, by the way, believe it's China, is because China has a very strong need to have this type of technology and reduce their carbon footprint. You can't breathe in populated cities, the megacities in China anymore. So A, you have a need to do that. Two, you have very low penetration of cell phone vehicles. So if you think about going from 2% to 10%, the roadways simply won't allow that. You'll be sitting in traffic gridlock forever. Thirdly, you have a very strong leadership commitment at the top level that is willing to support this type of movement into electric vehicles and share vehicles, what we call ACEs, autonomous, connected electric vehicles that will support the entire population, which is much larger than, of course, we have here. So all things point to a support system, and they've already mandated an enterprise internet of technology, IOT mandates for 2025 to have pretty much everything based on this. So when you have all the will to beast on the thoroughbreds running in the same direction, you have a lot more speed behind your sales. And that's kind of what's happening in China. In Europe, unfortunately, we're governed by archaic, Vienna Convention type, Euro environment, where now you have to all agree on how to disagree and where to move the car forward. And then you have countries like Germany who have built legacy technology and spent populations and generations working in mechanical engineering who have to make hard choices to very difficult decisions about how to pivot in this kind of an environment. And so they've got more headwinds. I would imagine, and suspect, than countries without legacy and automotive, which is China. And then you have people like Elon Musk heading to China because he was able to cut a deal to have an independent fully owned company there, why? Because China realizes that they don't have the bargaining power now trying to get a joint venture when they need the technology now. So I hope that answers kind of a roundabout way of answering your question. - Yeah. - Yes. - But if you think about just on a footnote for that, the vehicle stock population in the world is around a billion, right? Well, if you think about retroactively lighting all those vehicles up, so they have the capability to have an aftermarket toolkit on them, which enables self-driving or at low speed, enables maybe a robotic compute engine, then you're talking about getting up to scale pretty quickly without having to rely on a manufacturing base that might not support that type of acceleration. - Right. That's right. - Yep, absolutely. So we stepped into the future a bit, but I wanted to bring us back to current situation or even actually the past. So when preparing to visit interview, I came across the article you wrote for MIT Technology Review, and I really loved the vision you painted. I lived it for so many different reasons. A, you painted the visions that is very sensor-based. And B, despite the fact, I think it was coming out in 2016 and 2016 was all about hype. And, you know, self-driving cars are gonna come out here in the next four or five years. And, you know, it was really, really hyped. So I loved the balance, how you were able to paint the vision that is very, it's still visionary. If a future is visionary yet, it wasn't over-hyped. So I was just wondering, how did you come about it? Like, did you, how did you know that, you know, maybe it doesn't make sense? Everyone, it was the year that everyone was making, you know, big claims. Yet, yet, you know, yet you stayed away from those big claims, but at the same time, I succeeded in building this beautiful future. So I was wondering, how did you come about it? Did you, you know, did you, was it how you were all thinking about it at Google or was it, did you have some specific insights? Data, how did you pretty much came up with this piece? - Well, first of all, I haven't read that piece in a while. So thank you for remembering that. I remember how much fun it was when I did that. Though, you know, I mean, you can't make a baby, you know, with nine mothers in a month, right? You need nine months. And I think women, because we go through Mabel, maybe the childbirth, we have sort of a sense of ability associated with, and how long it would take to do something like that. And at that time, and by the way, I still do believe that, I think I'd mentioned 2020, 2021 being the pivotal year of self-driving at scale. I think we're not too far off. I mean, obviously COVID put a, you know, delay on that. But I think we're not too far off and where I was seeing the technology coming together and how fast it would take. Because I felt as if at Google alone, we couldn't do it. But I felt it would take a good three to four years to get mainstream automotive technology behind this and realizing that the electrification of vehicles was really going to be the major pivot point. And I think, I sort of saw Elon's vision early on. Because I always felt that this was not necessarily automotive, nor was it necessarily software, but it was more about energy. And I felt that if you looked at, and I love history, and if you look at the cycles of energy throughout the centuries of work, and you boil it down, we're in a position now, or we were in a position in 2016 to really make a commitment to full electric. And I felt that that was going to be a major tipping point for being able to get industrial automotive. So mainstream, European, Asian, and US automotive global companies to come together and say, you know, by the time of technology is incubated and is ready to go, we'll be in a position where we have electric power train all thought out, where battery chemistry was going to come down from 300, 400 kilowatt an hour to 100 kilowatt an hour, which is basically the cross-section between when an electric vehicle becomes cheaper the own cost than an internal combustion powertrain vehicle. So all of that coming into the equation, what I didn't think so much about was necessarily, you know, robotaxies, Uber was already in a game. So that was not as much on my mind. But it was this concept of can we all sort of do the heavy lifting on the software side and convince the hardware guys and the energy people to embrace this? And always, always, the biggest resistance comes from within. Yeah, unfortunately, that's when you talk about challenges. And I think that was one of your questions. I mean, spot on about every major resistance I've had is in changing people's hearts and minds. Yeah, absolutely. So without, so I absolutely agree about, you know, the importance of electric power train. And we had some great improvements, both in fuel, cell density, as well as, you know, just lose it. Just last month, I think they came up with a 500 miles range. So there's definitely so much development when it comes to battery. I was wondering, what would you say to the people that suggest that, you know, to have self-driving on electric, you really need also quite a lot of electricity goes into the computing power. Do you have any insights around that? Like, what would you say to people to some skeptics that it can actually be a bit more difficult to do it to do self-driving in fully electric? Well, I mean, if we hadn't developed the cloud and the edge compute capabilities and some of the AI, I would have said they might be right. But if you think about the coming flood of data and autonomous vehicle and how many megabits per second, you need, for example, to capture and label camera data and radar data and so on. I mean, you were talking about autonomous vehicles needing about 4,000 gigs per day each day. But if you unload a lot of that, that's not that it's non-latency required or specific, into processing on the edge and in the cloud, somewhat similar to what Nvidia is doing on the chipset side, then you're doing with a much lighter weight processing requirement on the vehicle. And that changes things quite substantially and really kind of kicks to the curb, people who are concerned about those entrances. As we're having, yeah, and 5G is coming through to help. Exactly, yeah. Exactly, we'll look at this again. So you've talked about how, even though we've been at this for a decade, we're still kind of at the beginning. But how would you advise women and others that are wanting to get into the industry or change to come into the industry? What would you say to them? Well, if you look at my history and history being a good indicator of future performance, my past performance is a good idea. I had no foundation to acknowledge this, except for the fact that I love to hang around with mechanical engineering and the back of our garage. But I think, if you think from a 360 level, any decisions that you make out of fear never work, you have to really have a passion for wanting to change the world and wanting to contribute. You learn a lot along the way. And people will gravitate to people who have passion. I mean, I remember sitting for hours after everybody left and just with my little, what do you call these things? These, I sort of use them. These black books, the little grid, black, red books. And just taking down notes, understanding mapping, understanding high definition mapping, understanding all how the different light our beams work and why it's solid state is more effective than moving parts. When you have a passion for singing, for dancing, for ballet, for self-driving, it takes you where you need to go. So I don't have any problem with anybody's saying, this is something that I really resonates with me and I want to understand it, learn it. And I would say just immerse yourself. Find the most talented people you can and work with them and don't look back. Because this is a wonderful, a lot of wind in your sales type industry, industry of movement, of energy, of compute power that's gravitating towards realizing an affordable way of moving that I think we need as a society. This should be like a utility for us. We shouldn't have to think about, where am I going to get my gas? How much am I going to pay for my insurance? Where am I going to get my car cleaned? These should be done by another operational service. You should just worry about if you have enough time to get from point A to point B. Well, we like to do something kind of at the end when we're talking with people that just as a quick fire, little short answers, just whatever is top of mind that comes to you to something a little fun if you don't mind. Of course. I love the challenge. OK, no, it's not even a challenge. It's just something a little fun. So the first is, what's your favorite mode of transportation? Oh god, my 2011 roller blades. All right. I'm just telling you, I do use that. But I think my e-bike, I have an ultrain, are 750-based e-bikes with flat tires, and I love. Oh, gosh, battery. And what is your favorite city for transportation? Oh, Manhattan. Manhattan, my hometown, yeah. OK. And what's the coolest technology you've seen heard about or used in the past year? Oh, wait for it. Tesla's new autopilot. Wow, OK. And lastly, another woman that you admire. Mom, mom, the moms of the world. I mean, we can't do it without our mothers, my gosh. I mean, she encouraged me to be independent. When I was coming out of Wellesley on my team, she said, apply to Wharton. Don't worry about having to work. She inspired me to do it. I went right out of school, not having to waste any time. Wall Street, same thing. Mom's still with us, thank God. But yeah, I mean, just hats off and lots of embraces to all of our mothers. And I think actually, Manuel, I mentioned her mother too. I mean, a lot of our empathy, our challenge, our leadership, our ability to really feel as if we're contributing in life comes from our mothers. So big shout out to mom. Absolutely. Cheers to moms. I think we need to start wrapping it up. So one last question. If our listeners would like to learn more about your organizations that you're running, what's the best way? You know, I think finding me a LinkedIn is probably the best because I'm still putting together the next thing I'm working on. So yeah, either through you all and through your website, which I'm on, or my own LinkedIn profiles of all odds. OK, perfect. So I thank you so much for coming to the show. Yeah, I've really enjoyed it. Thank you so much, ladies, for having the courage to put this together and really good luck. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. OK, take care. If you like what you've heard, please make sure to subscribe and forward it to your friend. Stay tuned for what's to come.