And there's individual choice in how we do relationships. And in a society where we like categorizing, where we like grouping, where we like labels, it's very easy and again, intellectually and emotionally lazy to just go with whatever the dominant viewpoint of the day is, versus how do I want to show up as an individual, even if that maybe goes against some of the tenants of the group that I belong to. Welcome to the Storycraft podcast for Storytellers. I'm your host, Meg Adams, and I'm here to help you explore how stories shape our connections. Wondering how stories help you network in advance? Looking to bridge online and face-to-face worlds, foster understanding and ignite innovation, look no further. Whether you're a leader, communicator, educator, or just love a good story, join us for actionable insights and real talk with professional storytellers, all aims at helping you build stronger, better connections. So I enjoy, with former colleague and friend, Seth Butler today, and I was just going to dive right into it so that can you tell us about your career and your interest in storytelling? Yeah, sure. So it's interesting. I kind of started out on the stage. When I was 10, everything kind of comes full circle. I was in a theater production at the University of Finley. Yeah, the show was Shenandoah, and I played the part of this little slave boy. And it kind of kicked off my interest, my level of engagement with being on stage, interacting with people, and it was just a natural environment for me. So then the next few years, I was involved in my youth theater, being in front of people on stage, and then, you know, throughout my career, I've always been in kind of forward facing, speaking environments. Throughout track and field, being interviewed by newspapers, going in and talking to like leading team meetings. When I graduated, I earned a track college at Piccaro State University. I won some leadership awards, was involved, heavily involved with like service and mentorship opportunities when I'm talking to younger folks. And then when my like professional career launched in higher ed, I always found myself in classrooms, not in a teaching faculty role, but in a kind of an information digestion role of like, hey, here's what my office does, here's how I can help you kind of always kind of pitching services and letting students know about what our offices do. But the storytelling part though, I've always enjoyed writing. And I've always had this knack for like writing poetry. And there's tons of stuff I used to do as a kid, like write my mom like a Happy Mother's Day poem and stuff like that. I never thought it would actually lead to anything substantial. But what really kicked off some of the spoken word art where I'm paid to come in and perform now, was I shared a piece in the midst of like George Floyd with somebody that I reached out to. And it was kind of on a whim. I'm like, hey, I think this is pretty good. I don't actually know. What do you think about it? And it was a Zoom call. His name is Chris Moreland. And he's become a good mentor and friend of mine. And his response was, let me get back to you. And I was like, OK, two weeks later, he gets back to me. And he has a friend on the Zoom call. He's like, hey, share what you just shared with me two weeks ago. Share it with her now. And I shared it. And at the end of that call, they're like, hey, we're at this conference in two weeks. We want you to be there. We'll pay you comment like we need that. And so that kind of kicked off a lot of the actual storytelling and being more intentional about it rather than just being like, oh, I like poetry. And I like talking to a lot of people. So that's kind of where I am now, where I get to travel and speak and engage people. I love that. Thank you for that snuff. Is that was a really wonderful, like you said, full circle moment from a kid on the stage to someone who naturally wrote poetry. Could you tell us more about what it was about that moment? So you mentioned George Floyd and you mentioned this particular piece. What was there an inclination in that moment that you knew? Like, what was why that piece? So yeah. So the piece I shared was actually-- this is one that I don't know very many people have heard up to this point. But the piece was about this racial microaggression, based on my own personal experience. And I actually wrote it in my head driving to work one day. And so it took me 15 minutes to get to work. I'm driving. I'm like, man, this is kind of unique. And then I get to my office and I take 10 minutes and I just write it all out really quickly. And then over time, I refine it. But I was like, there's has to be more to it without resonate with this. And it's related to diversity and inclusion, a big passion of mine. And so the piece is about this racial microaggression. And in the midst of George Floyd, where the whole conversation at that time, nationwide globally was about race, how we interact with each other or not interact with each other based on race. I thought it might be a good entry point into letting people know kind of how on processing this. I think it was kind of like a timing thing where we were nationally with the conversation around race, where it made me feel comfortable reaching out and sharing this very provocative piece that really kind of pushed the envelope with that conversation. Could you share like a little bit of the piece with us or could you tell us what the piece is about? So this piece is so it yeah, I'm happy to share it. It is it is Bavaka. So I'll give some context around it. So growing up in thinly Ohio, predominantly white area, I went to all white high school. I like the whole concept of race is something that has always been a part of my life, right? So one of the experiences that was not infrequent for me was getting stopped at grocery stores as I'm checking out to ask for my receipt of purchasing of items. And so you know, it's happening thinly, it's happening my been at BG. And so like a week prior when I wrote this in the car, I guess it happened. And I was just reflecting on that moment when I was driving to work this day. And as a way to try and capture this experience, you know, I just came up with this piece in my head and wrote it out. And it kind of like stayed in in my document of all this written stuff that's halfway finished and some of it is finished. So that's kind of the crux of the piece is this racial migration based on, you know, me shopping at Mount Walmart. You know, I will say that there is some language in it if that is not a kid. No, totally great. Yeah. So I'll call she to the piece and we can kind of digest it if we need to. I love that. Thank you, Seth. Yeah, sure. Excuse me, sir. Can I see your receipt? I stop and look around and think, is he talking to me? I respond and ask why he looks me right in my eye. Then pulls out his radio and since security, please. I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, there's no issue right here. I just don't understand and I'm just trying to be clear. Did I do something wrong? Did I sit off the alarm? I just simply want to know why you door checking me just following protocol standard operation. I understand and I respect that, but can I get an explanation? What policy exactly are you following here? I'll explain in a minute, sir. You've got nothing to fear. But that's exactly how I felt in my breathing became strange because all I could think about was that hashtag. Say his name. Before I could catch my breath and try and call myself down the next thing that I'm hearing is, freeze, get on the ground. I turn and I'm looking down the barrel of a gun. I instinctively blurred out. Please no, I've got a son. You can have all my groceries shut up down on your knees. And I hear comments of my standards. Is he resisting the police? As I lower myself down, there's three cops on top of me. As I try to turn my head, I feel the breaking of my teeth. Now I'm laying in my blood after that boot kick to my face and they keep jerking me around saying, stop trying to break free. Sir. Sir. Sir. Sir. And I see your receipt. I blink a couple times, snapping back to reality. I reach into my pocket to show proof of valid purchase and intentionally bite my tongue and tell myself, man, it ain't worth it. You got your wife, you got your kids. They expect to see you, bro. I know that it's humiliating, but you got to suck it up. And I feel the stares of critique as people walk on by. Did he just try and steal something? I see that question in their eyes. I see the shaking of their heads and that look that says go figure. What else would you expect from thugs, low life, no good niggers? But yet I still stand there and silence. Well, my white peers keep on walking and I think this makes no sense. And I almost even ask if the clerk will stop them too. But don't want to be seen as the angry black man because you know that's what we do. We pop off for no good reason because we're built with much more anger. Gotta be careful around these black men. Caught and stay away from danger. They're aggressive.
so violent they're all criminals, token guns. If you see one of these monsters turn the other way and run? I take in two deep breaths. Anything that I can do to try and decompress, shake off the humiliation and exhale all of the stress. Keep standing there and smile until the clerk, thank you, sir, be blessed. You see, I don't know how many more times I can take this before I snap and write as I'm about to. He gives the receipt back. All right, looks like you're good. You can go ahead and take your cart. Thank you for your business and for shopping at Walmart. That is a very different version of what I heard. Thank you. Thank you, Seth, for sharing that with me and with the listeners. Part of a big piece of this podcast is helping people understand how storytelling connects us through experience. What you did there was put us in your head. And that was in such a visceral response. So I think the beauty, one of the beauties of some of the beauty of storytelling to me, but the absolute beauty of it is that you just gave me a gift of being able to get a glimpse into what it's like in your everyday. How can this help us? I know you do this work, but how can this help all of us really relate better to each other? I think you mentioned George Floyd. That was a moment in our country's history where you said everybody was grappling with this, but you grapple with it as you mentioned since you were a child. So what do you think based on what you do and how you do it? What does that offer people in terms of being able to connect and relate to people who aren't like them? Yeah, I know that's a great question. So I was just at the University of Sydney yesterday in the College of Education doing a talk on diversity and these teachers who are going to be going out into different environments and different geographical locations and they're going to be teaching a wide array of students. So my approach is a bit different in that I try and apply a holistic approach to connecting with other humans. And it sounds like on the surface level, I've gotten critique where it sounds like a colorblind mentality or an all-wise matrimontality and it's not that it is I believe at the crux of of the issue of diversity and relating to others. If we can't relate, it doesn't matter how much I think I understand or how much I think I know about another identity. If I'm not connecting with them on a level of depth, then all I have is this kind of this academic theoretical knowledge base that I then apply to somebody based on a book that I read or a speech I listen to. But if I'm not ever actually interacted with somebody who kind of my own surface level fit that box of information that I have about that group of people, it's nothing more than information that is oftentimes in my opinion misapplied. So what I mean by that is there's all these these this knowledge base around my keres worst like to be a black man in America and there's a bunch of academic conversation about it. There's a bunch of hypotheticals, there's a bunch of things that are said about that and one of the things that I have experienced is that that's then applied en masse to everybody who happens to meet that box. So when I interact with people, I want them to get to know me because I have this approach of humans are complex, we're messy, we're such an array of a tapestry of our lives that cannot be reduced to a single identity marker. I call it the fallacy of human reduction. Like we tend to reduce humans down to nothing more than one or two identity boxes that society is telling us to keep at the forefront of our mind. So then for me when people visually see me, the lenses that unconsciously they filter me through is blackmail. Okay, I'm not interacting with a whole lot of blackmail but there's a lot out there about blackmail that I'm then going to apply to Seth and then now I feel like I know Seth a little bit because of this information I'm taking applying it but no interaction with Seth. I try and break that down by saying no, when you just start operating out of human reduction and start operating out of human complexity, yes, I'm male, yes, I'm black but you can't see that I'm a father, you can't see that I'm a husband, you can't see my fate, you can't see trauma that I've experienced with, like you can't see my social economical status, you can't see any of that, none of that has a race, none of that has a gender, none of that has things that we often put into boxes. So if we're people that can understand that humans are complex and I can connect with anybody who even on the surface level looks vastly different, we both have trauma in our lives that's similar, you're white on black. Okay, there's a connecting point because humans are complex and that transcends a little bit of the racial division that might be there and actually gets us closer together despite that division that has been created. So that's kind of the long drawn out response of if we can stop reducing people down to their identities, not that those identities don't matter, but they're more than the identities that they have in their lives and start seeing the complexity for who they truly are as an individual and the intersectionality of our life experiences, then we can connect in a way that doesn't just acknowledge diversity but appreciates that difference through the relationship that's been formed. Love what you're hearing on this podcast, consider booking me to speak at your next event. Dive further into the transformative power of storytelling with my keynote. Tell better stories, speak up, stand out and build community. In a world that often amplifies our differences, my talk invites you to embrace genuine connections. Break free from the echo chambers and discover the art of storytelling. Learn how to share your own narrative, listen actively and foster communities that flourish on shared experiences. Check out the show notes to learn more about how to book a talk for your next event. That's such an eloquent way of stating that and a beautiful way of stating that. I'm right there with you. A lot of the work that I do is really just exactly like you said. We all experience the world differently, which colors also the way that we see the world, but instead of seeing that as something that divides us, that's absolutely something that can bring us together. It is actually a gift. What you just gave me was a gift. You did that again in a few minutes. You were able to emotionally center me in your mind. And you very quickly also allowed me to see those dimensions of your life and what it's like. So now, and then like now I go out to my day and to my world and that perspective is widened. Right. So for listeners who might not be as poetically inclined as you as a storyteller, what advice would you give them on both sides of that coin? So how do you share your story? Because that does take a level of trust and vulnerability. And then how do you listen better? Or how do you create opportunities to listen better? Because this is another issue that I think all of us face myself included is the probably like we just want to be around people who are like us. Because that's just easier, isn't it? To just people who think like us and act like us and love like us and pray like us. So what advice would you give? That's a very long, when David do a side of question. How do we share stories? And how do we put ourselves in situations where we can listen better across difference? Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that I try and employ, you know, I do a lot of talking about like unconscious bias. And then there are different forms of bias that show up in our lives. One of the primary forms of bias is affinity bias. And this is where we tend to relate to those, connect with those, help those, seek out those who we have some sort of affinity with. Whether that's a perceived affinity or if it is like if there is legitimately affinity with that person. So if I ask a group of people, hey, how many of you are Ohio state fans and everybody raises their hand, boom, immediate affinity just because we like the same. So then I'm more likely going to feel like I connect with you just on that surface level connection. Now oftentimes when bias is talked about, it's talked about through a negative slant where oh affinity bias is bad. And I like to try and get people to put a positive slant on affinity bias. If you can create affinity with somebody, like research shows you're more likely to help them, you're more likely to value them, you're more likely to trust them. And I believe that we have the capacity as humans to create affinity with another human being. And so that you should have question of how do we share our stories? How do we listen well? I go into almost every interaction trying to connect with that person because I know psychologically what happens when we make connections. So if on the surface level, I'm interacting with somebody that is polar opposites and visually, right? I'm a black person, here's a white person, they group on a farm, like all these things, there's not really much that would
wrong into this person. So what I look for it from the listening standpoint is, you know, I ask questions that would allow me to get deeper insight to make a connection. And as that happens, our relationship bond is being formed, right? And then as I learn more about them, and I see like, Hey, there's actually several things that we're connecting with here. It opens me up to an embedded share my life, right? Through a stance of vulnerability and trust. If we can do that, we can create affinity, not the negative affinity where I'm only going to help Ohio State fans. And I'm going to give the birds all the Michigan fans, not that. But if we can create human affinity where, you know, Hey, where'd you grow up? Oh, I grew up in Finland. Okay, boom, immediate affinity. Oh, I have siblings. Oh, immediate affinity. So it starts surface level. And it gets more and more in depth to the point where, wow, what I thought was going to be this surface level interaction has now led to a strong bond friendship that has, you know, years built upon it now. A lot of my close friendships now are built exactly that way, giving people a chance to share their life. And as that happens simultaneously in that exchange, now I don't see the person who I once saw is like, Oh, here's my quiet college roommate who's from South Dakota who grew up on a farm. No, actually, you know, I took his engagement photos when he proposed to his wife. We, you know, our, our daughters call that call him Uncle and aunt now, right? That transcended all of the things that should have kept us at bay because we shared each other's lives. That's a beautiful, thank you for the story. And I love that. I love how you sort of flipped affinity bias there to tell us like, Hey, we can use this for connection. That's a great piece of advice too. Have you ever, this is a selfish question because I have experienced this and keep experiencing this. And I don't know if this is like me trying to get a lesson. Have you ever, have you ever come across somebody where you just had to set a boundary up where you're like, Okay, I've tried like I've been vulnerable, but I just think that our, our differences are too deep. Like essentially, have you ever had to cut off a relationship after sort of learning more about someone? And is that, you know, I'm still kind of wondering like as someone like you who really has made it not only my career, but part of my life to form these connections and these relationships and to try really hard to look past bias. Is there a line for you when you're just like, No, we can't. Oh, certainly, certainly. Like there are, there are healthy boundaries like you can intend to try and get to know somebody and still have healthy boundaries, would safeguard against harm or toxic relationships or being taken advantage of and all these things. So yeah, like red flags for me would be, this is just my own preference and my own navigation as I look at relationships would be people who are pushy. I tend to be more guarded against. And the reason why I say that is because you know, in my, my world, I interact with people who with a wide array of differences in my own, right? And one of the things that I've seen be counterproductive is a, almost like a demand for solidarity with that person when that solidarity might not be there in every single way. Right. So let's say I met with somebody who has a particular political slant that I don't share. Am I going to cut them out of my life? No, I'm not. I'm going to interact with them. I'm going to be kind of respectful in all these things. And I have lots of people who I don't agree with politically. We have great friendships. But we're kind of a red flag for me is when that person tends to like always try and push the issue with that political difference to the point where now now it's becoming hostile. Now it's becoming judgmental. Now it's you're trying to like kind of chokehold me into suspending my beliefs because of this like moral high ground type of dynamic that's been created. Those are boundaries that I try and look for of, hey, we don't have to agree on everything. And in fact, I don't think it's healthy if we agree on everything because then we're going to like this group think tank where our own ideas and thoughts that are always being perpetuated. But there has to be the, I think the intellectual emotional maturity to be able to stand with those who don't agree with you. And that is one thing that I have found to be like, you know, to be quite frank, people who are intellectually and emotionally lazy can't stand being around other people who don't agree with them. And they need they they there's this need for like validation and affirmation. And like I need to be right. And I need you to tell me that I'm right. But for me, I'm like, like you're in title, so your opinion, that's fine. Like I'm not going to find might you want that. Right. But when I fight a lot, then it's just like this isn't healthy. So those are that I've kind of kept that distance. I really appreciate that advice. I think that's really going to help our listeners as well. Because I think especially in the you mentioned politics, that seems like such a, like you said, for some people that is a red flag. And as you mentioned earlier, for some people, that's, that's your marker. You know, you're this, that means you're all these things too, right? And so I really appreciate that advice. I think that's wonderful advice. Do you have as people kind of head out into the world and they're looking to connect with others? Do you think that I wonder sometimes about the you mentioned earlier to about having the perspective of an outsider, right? Sort of even at a young age feeling like you didn't fit in. And I wonder for those of us who felt like, because I've had these conversations too with I wonder if that gives us sort of like a precursor to this type of work. Like because we're seeing connection. Whereas like I have several loved ones and close friends who don't and that didn't feel that way. And so I end to they're into adulthood. And it's they're like, oh, like I shared my story and somebody doesn't like it. You know what I mean? Like I just wonder if you have any thoughts on how to be more open for everybody in terms of trying to understand another side wherever you're at in life. Yeah, I think the thing that helps me is that I know 100% I'm not going to connect with everybody. Sure. Yeah. I know not everybody's going to like me. I know. In some cases, people will actively dislike me. Right. I think that that removes a little bit of the pressure from having to be the sole driver when it comes to human connections. I think with people who want to connect who are good at storytelling, there is this like in a back of our mind like I want everybody to feel good about what I just shared. I want everybody to know that I care about them. Yeah. And that can become overwhelming and it can become debilitating. So if I'm talking to you know, a small audience of 75 people and there's a group of four over here that are kind of like chatty or their eye rolling or whatever, they're giving you that that nonverbal feedback that says, I'm not feeling this. Yeah. Do I choose to give all my energy to trying to rope them in or do I focus on you know, the other 70 out of the 75 who might be more engaged. And in fact, I take it a step further and I have an audience of one in mind. Every engagement I'm there for one person. Everybody else is icing on the cake. One person needs to hear what I have to say. And I don't care if there's a thousand people in the room, one person, this is going to significantly impact one person. And so what I'm going to do, I don't know who that one person is, but I'm going to try and make contact with everybody. I'm going to try, hey, I'm not sure if you're the one I'm going to try and draw you in that I'm going to move to the next person. I'm going to scan the room. Right. And it might be that of the thousand people, you know, 200 of them are significant impacted. Right. But that audience of one really removes the pressure for me because like I'm only one person. You know, I can only be so impactful, so influential. And I'm not arrogant enough to think that like I'm God's greatest gift to earth, right? And so having that that humility and that reality, like, hey, I'm probably like mediocre when it comes to like influencing people. I'm fine with that. But who's the one person I am going to influence? And that allows me then to go in and I'm going to do my best to understand. But if people don't like what I have to say, it's not necessarily my responsibility to get them to like it. It's my responsibility to communicate as best as I can, my fart, my message, my desires. And I can't then, you know, brainwash you to respond the way that I would like you to respond. I have to let you be your own individual and how you filter the information that I just delivered. Oh, that is a great piece of advice, especially to anybody going into speaking, storytelling, because I think that is. And as we, I think as we progress and more people do find their voices, share their stories, there's so many outlets to do that. I do think that fear that you just mentioned of what people will think essentially or trying to please everybody does hold people back. So thank you. That was, that was a really good piece of advice. Sort of along those lines, let's switch and gears a little bit. I know a lot of the lists there's this podcast are people who are either like small business owners entrepreneurs or people in marketing, PR, social media managers. So they're telling stories for brands. So what you just said, I think individually helps us. But I do, I see that a lot with brands too when I work with whether it's a small business or an organization, they're having
as a tent to share their story because they can't control it. I hear that a lot. It's that idea that the stores are co-interpreted, right? So co-created, you know. So could you talk, do you have any advice for those of us who want to hold on tightly to the story and try to control the, I don't wanna say impact, but try as much as we can to control the way that stories are received? - Yeah, I think that's a tough dynamic because again, I have received pushback from other people kind of in the field of the I that that who don't like my approach, who think my approach is not heavy-handed enough who think my approach is doing a disservice to certain populations and things like that. And that's their entitled to their opinion. But I think what helps me is you cannot be all things to all people. Like that's just a fact. That doesn't mean that the desire isn't there and it doesn't mean that the message can't be applied positively in some way. But if I try and be all things, all people I effectively am useful to no one because it's not targeted enough. It's not a niche field for it, right? So if I'm just like going to a large audience and I'm just like, "Hey, I care about all of you." And that's a message. Like I could mean that, but it's like, what do people do with that? I go in and I deliver a message on, this is how we need to connect with other human beings. Here's a methodology that I think would be productive for a group of people. Some people are gonna like pass it away, right? And they're not gonna think about it. The ones that I can't influence, I'm going to allow somebody else to then, those aren't the ones I'm supposed to be influencing. But when it comes to the message, I also have to be okay that people will interpret the way that they want to interpret. And there's a certain level of risk that comes with putting your information out there, putting your hand out there, putting your stories out there. And the thing that gives me like, confidence is I have articulated the way that I wanted to articulate it. There will be pushback, there will be receptiveness on some ins, but when you look at certain things that have been created for certain purposes, the way in which it's used now, I'm sure that some inventors would be turning in their graves if they saw what they created being used in the way it's being used now. We're not in control of that. So my thing is that control the controls. If I'm the first one to put a message out there, and it's me, I don't want to fine tune it, this is the way that I delivered it. And then if I can defend that, then that gives me peace of mind. 'Cause if I get attacked, I'm like, hey, why did you do that? Why did you say, why did you share that that way? And all these other things, I can say, here's the intentionality behind it. So if I'm less focused on what's gonna happen with that message and I'm more focused on my intentionality of how I then put that message out there because when blowback happens, I can defend it and I'm confident in the defense that I'm going to give. - Okay, we had to pause the podcast to let you in on this opportunity. If you're ready to elevate your brand storytelling, don't miss our training, tell better stories. Led by me, a seasoned television journalist and PR professor, Ann Kyle, an on-air meteorologist and video storytelling expert. This workshop unveils our secrets to craft compelling personal-driven narratives that resonate with your audience. Learn our distinct approach that puts people first and brand second, leveraging six storytelling elements for maximum impact. Walk away with actionable strategies, tactics, and a clear process to replicate success in any organization. Check out the show notes to learn more about this offer or reach out to
[email protected]. - Also a really wonderful answer. Thank you for that advice. Do you have any, like, crap, this is sort of just like honing in on that. Any practices that you incorporate into your story, like, creation process to keep that intentionality forefront? - You know, I think one of the things that I do is almost try and think if I can be as bold as every time. I'll say almost every time, 'cause I'm not sure if I can do 100% of the time. But I try to put my own values, my own mission, my own biases out at the forefront when I'm doing a training, when I'm consulting, when I'm going in and speaking. The reason why is because I want people to know where I'm coming from and why I'm coming from that particular viewpoint or approach. That practice then makes it easy for me to then validate or defend because if I go into, like, I'm a Christian. My faith is a huge part of the work that I do, which is why I think I can connect with anybody because a big pinnacle of my faith is love, is forgiveness, is reconciliation and all those things. It drives the work that I do. And so I often lead with that. But if someone comes in and says, hey, you didn't mention this religion or this faith, I can say, like, I'm not being discriminatory against those other religions or those other faiths, but like, this is the launching pad of what influences me. I led with that. I'm getting pushed back. I can then defend it because it goes back. So no one necessarily caught off guard if you keep being in a position where you can point back the things to say, like, everybody was in the know. It almost gives, it almost relieves a little bit of that pressure or stress to say, like, hey, are people in the know? Are they aware? Yes, they're aware. So when I'm working with the client, I always have a conversation called them and say, hey, this is my approach. I'm not going to get up there. I'm not going to preach. But I want you to know, this is what motivates me to do what I do, why I do it. Are you okay with that? If not, like, no harm done, I can refer other people out. That might be a better fit. But just know, like, this is a large part of how I do my work. Is this what you're looking for? And then if there's audience members, one, they can take it up with who brought me in. But then too, that I have somebody else who can then defend their stance. This is why I brought that in. And I also defend that. So you kind of put safeguards in place practically with how you set the message up, who you're communicating with on the forefront, having kind of like a, almost a cookie crumb trail. Like I can backtrack all of these things of the personality. And then I kind of put you in a place where like, okay, I can just breathe these yet in a day. It will be what it will be. That's also a really good piece of advice, especially thinking through like what you're doing in diversity, equity, inclusion. Like for a lot of people, these are going to be uncomfortable conversations by nature. So what a great way to set things up by saying, it's essentially just saying, here's my perspective. Here's where I come from. Here's a glimpse into my world. And so our people who are intellectually and emotionally intelligent are gonna be like, okay, I get that, right? So then they come to that conversation with that knowledge. And that's a really wonderful way to set things up. I think even in any difficult conversation that you're gonna have to say, here's my intentionality, here's my viewpoint. Here's what I hope we get out of this conversation. And I really appreciate that advice for people who do consulting work as well. 'Cause I think that's something that, it doesn't always necessarily come up. But given the area that you're in, it's a great practice to institute either way. So really good piece of communication advice. Is there anything, as we wrap up here, I have some rapid fire questions for you, which are fun. Nothing too terrible, I promise. But is there anything that you would add to storytelling, storytelling across difference, helping people sort of really communicate across difference in a time where we are silently in ourselves. You know, there's some things we've talked about. Do you have any last advice? - Yeah, trying to combine left brain and right brain engagement, I think is really effective. - Yeah. - So I think that's the power of storytelling, that's the power of emotion, that's the power of the relational side of the human being that we are. We're analytical, we're logical, we're method driven, right, we're consequence driven. All that is good. But then there's also, if you're a robot who only looks at bottom line, if you're a robot, you only look at like this, makes the most sense in my mind, and you miss some of the humanity element. I think that's the danger of always being kind of like left brain. But then if you're always right brain, you miss some of the logical consequences or some of the rationale, because everything can't be done on human emotion or relationship driven, right? So in either extreme, I think it's bad and detrimental, but it's finding this balance and this kind of like harmony between, I want to make sense, I want there to be logic where people are like, oh, I understand why you're doing that, but I don't want them to just understand, I want them to experience what it's like if we apply that logical argument that I just laid out, which is why I incorporate poetry into almost every presentation I do, because I typically either lead off with poetry and engage that humanity side, my why did I just take you through that? Here's why, and then I back it up with logic, or I think like a lecture, and here's a affinity bias, here's the halo effect, here's all this stuff. Like logically you understand that, when you apply that, what does it look like in humanity with other people? And so that is something that I found really effective, and I just like doing it. And so that's my personal bias coming out there. (laughs) - So when people hire you to come in and consult and speak, that they can expect this left-for-brain approach, which is beautiful. - Yes. - Yes, well that's awesome. Thank you for sharing that. Okay, so what is your favorite story of all time? Could be music, video across genres?
favorite story of all time. I think right now in the moment because I'm putting put on the spot, I'm going to say remember the Titans movie. Yeah, personally I resonate with that. A lot of influential lifelong friends, cross racial barriers, and being a sports guy, you know, being a division one athlete, to create a common goal around sports, and then that being entry point, entry relationships is something that I'm really passionate about. So I love going into talk to sports teams, and things like that, because that is like that's immediate affinity with we're on the same team together, we have a common goal. But then the story of like what society says should be on the basis of skin color, it does not have to be the way we experience it, and there's individual choice in how we do relationships. So I think that's why I really like that story. There's so many life lessons in it, and it's just really, I think from a film standpoint, I think it's really well done. So yeah. I'm so glad you brought that one up for me, because as you were talking, my daughter is, she's nine, gonna be 10 playing on a sports team, and I was just like, we have to watch that movie, because she's experiencing some of those lessons that and like that would be a great thing for her to watch. So oh, thank you for reminding me of that one. I haven't seen it in a while, but yes, great story. And then our second question is, what's the best storytelling advice you've ever heard? You just want to shout it from the rooftops or the worst piece of advice you want to like do not do that that someone has told you regarding storytelling or communicating again across different. Okay. That is also a good one. The best advice. You know, I think the audience of one piece is probably the best advice I've ever gotten from a public speaking standpoint. It's just so freeing. I'm confident enough to know that I can, I can connect with at least one person, right? It's like, give me a basketball and give me 10 attempts. Like I'm a pretty decent shooter. Like I know I'm gonna make more than just one, but like that's an easy goal. Like I know for sure I'm making at least one. That's a bare minimum, right? That's how I fill up this whole audience of one thing. Like I know, but you know, I'll be able to connect with at least one. Probably the best advice I've ever gotten. Worst advice. You know, I'm not sure if it was explicit advice, but there's sometimes conversation around what are you, what are you including your bio? Right? You modify your bio to the audience for client that's asking you to come in or do you, do you leave some things in there that could potentially be whether it be tension? And I'm not gonna say it's the worst advice ever, but I just don't agree with intentionally cutting out parts of your life and not sharing that at a place where you're being asked, where you are being asked to come in and share. Hey, come in and share, but just don't mention any of this about who you are. I've experienced that and it is not a fun experience where there have been pieces of what I intentionally put into a bio. Then when I'm introduced, that is not mentioned anywhere in there. And so the feeling, I don't think it's intentional, like we're trying to make them feel bad. I think some of the attempt, well, I'm thinking about the specific event. I think the intent was this, the way you communicate this in your bio, might be offensive or might create tension with audience members. I understand that, but there's also like professionally, there should be a level of trust and respect for the way in which I'm about to communicate that will hopefully put that at ease given the fact that we know each other. So that that was something that, you know, personally that I've experienced that I would not advise people to one willingly sacrifice parts of who you are for the sake of a client audience. I've been asked to do that. And two, if it does happen to maybe reevaluate how to make sure it doesn't happen in the future because it's not a fun experience. I'm sorry you had to go through that experience, but I appreciate you sharing that lesson with us. It sounds to me like one of your red flag pieces of advice, too. Like this might not be aligned. And you're right, if it's not aligned, the longer that relationship versus this, it just never ends well for anybody. So in a way, keeping that information out there about yourself might deter certain misaligned lines and stuff like that. So yeah, good piece of advice. Thank you for sharing that with us. The last question is how do you define storytelling in your own words? Yeah. I think the simplest way that I would define it would be communicating a message with a specific intent or outcome. It's not just getting up there and talking. And it's not just telling, not just making people laugh. I mean, it's not about like comedians, they don't want to make people laugh. But it has to have a direction. It has to have like kind of like, you know, here's the climax and here's like the decline and here's like the end and all of that. But it's intentionality with trying to communicate a specific message to hopefully get people to either think about or help people arrive at a certain outcome. So when I'm when I'm crafting my stories, my poetry, like even that Walmart piece, very personal, right? Like, okay, what does it have to do with me? The outcome that I want people to walk away with is some of the stereotypes around black men, what that looks like in my mind. No, I wasn't thrown on the ground and had a gun point to my head. But that immediate like, hey, can I see a receipt? How I want to respond, how I should respond, all that is processing about two seconds of if I say no because I'm tired of getting stopped and I know that I'm justified in what I just purchased. What could the outcome be? So helping people, storytelling helps people arrive at that point that you want them to walk away with. Lovely. Thanks for that. I love that you have an outcome at the outset too. That's, I love that. And so tell our listeners, where can they find you? How can they hire you? Like if they're like, oh, I love this interview with Seth, where can I find out more about him? Let us know where we should connect with you. Yeah, so I'm primarily on LinkedIn. I've got lots of flat from friends and family like, oh, or like, you know, I got off social media back in 2012, 2013. And so it's been, yeah, most of myself is word of mouth, but I'm on LinkedIn and Seth J. Butler.com really simple. This is my first name, middle initial last name, SJB consulting. Yeah. And then if you look at me up on LinkedIn, you can book an appointment. There can be a 30 minute conversation call to talk about what your need is. If I can help meet that need or if I can refer somebody else that can meet that need and happy to do so. That sounds great. Thanks. I will link all those in the show notes so people can find them with one click. So thanks so much for your time, Seth. I am just so grateful for our conversation. And so many ways this was a gift to me and things all things that I needed here today. And I'm sure our listeners will as well. So thank you. I appreciate the invite. We're so glad you've listened to this podcast episode. If you liked it, would you mind doing us a favor? Share this episode with someone who would be interested in the topic too. We're on a mission to help everyone become a better storyteller. And don't forget to subscribe to the show to get updated every time we release a new episode. Each and every episode is produced hosted and edited by us. Megan Kyle Adams at Homeplace Creative. Happy storytelling.
PodcastTranscript AI