Session 44 ft. Dr Rheeda Walker

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We have gifts they'll love from brands like Tato One and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. Shop beauty faves to give or keep from Shark Beauty, Sol de Janeiro, and more. Not sure what they want? You can't go wrong with Balmain, Clinique, or Redken. And don't forget to put yourself on the list. Book a salon moment or add a little more sparkle to your season. Shop holiday in-store or at Ulta.com. Ulta Beauty. Hi and welcome back. Welcome back to Crystal's Couch, the show where I answer your questions for advice and talk to the most interesting people in the world. This week I am joined by the one and only Dr. Rita Walker. And today on the couch we are going to be talking about something that affects every part of our lives, which is how we protect our minds. Now Dr. Walker is a licensed clinical psychologist, professor, researcher, and author whose work has focused extensively on black mental health, suicide risk, and psychological resilience. She's. She's the author of The Unapologetic Guide to Black Mental Health, a book written specifically with black people in mind, not just to talk about mental illness, but to give us language and tools for understanding what it actually means to be well. It's a conversation I cannot wait to have. So thank you so much, Dr. Walker, for joining me on the couch. Hello. It's really good to be here. I literally just logged on and we were ready to go. Oh, sorry. Yes, I'm efficient. I be in here. I'm like, all right, all right, all right, we're getting out of here. But thank you so much. When my team sent over all your information and told me about the things you had been working on and studying, I'm like, oh, my God, this is perfect for this show. You know, trying to take all the information that mental health therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, et cetera, learn in school and kind of distill it out to the masses because Lord knows the people need it. And what you're talking about when I looked at your website and you mentioned that. Black Girl Magic and Black Boy Joy is like who we are naturally without being under the boot of the oppressor. So can you talk to me a little bit more about like this, the book that you wrote, The Unapologetic Guide to Black Mental Health and and why that title in particular? And all the things I am so glad to talk about all the things because the reason that I earned the Ph.D. And by the way, several states and universities will vouch for my degree. The reason that I. It's real. I know that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Because you because you did that work. So, yeah, it is a lot of work. As do so many others who who work hard and for a reason. Yes. So that we can contribute to our communities. Like I don't I haven't met a black person who has pursued a mental health degree who wasn't thinking about the broader community. Yes. Wasn't thinking about the degree to which we struggle, not by sometimes, but usually not by our own doing. It's because we're trying to navigate the things around us. Yes. And I know that the joy and the magic is inherent in us because, you know, we see it. We see it when no one's bothering us. We see it when we have persevered through not just chattel slavery and Jim Crow racism, but to now when things are trying to come back around. We're. We're still finding joy. Like, how how is that? Right. And it deserves to be studied. It really it really does, because it's important. And I truly believe that it is what has carried us through. And even though clinical psychologists and I might jump around a bit because, you know, you find a lot of you primed all the things, you know, in clinical psychology often thinks about, you know, the problem and diagnosing what's wrong with people and focusing. On more severe illness that includes not just people being overwhelmed, but major depressive disorder and generalized anxiety and schizophrenia and all of those things for me because of my emphasis on the black community, we have to balance that with the sources of resilience, you know, like what makes us strong, how our identity and knowing who we are has empowered us beyond all the things and unfortunately in the theoretical. Foundation of my work is. Concern that us increasingly not knowing who we are and not knowing the the value of our magic and our joy and where it came from, that as we lose touch with that and some of us become just American, oh, that we lose access to our power. Yeah, it and my research has has has. Born that out. Yeah, so I'll I'll stop there because I can go and that's why I'm so glad to have you, because I love when people know what they're talking about and they're passionate about a topic in particular, but I that resonates because I find the same thing to be true in most situations when we're removed from who we really are and and that can happen, you know, throughout childhood, there are lots of adverse experiences we can go through traumatic things like that, that that. Separate us from our core essence, the the being that we truly are and the further you get from that, the sicker you will be the more unwell you will be yes and so I love that you're kind of tying that into take a look around at the world like. Anti blackness is global the United States of America is on a decline and the anti blackness is skyrocketing because of that, along with all of the other you know black people are not just black we're also. A lot of us are marginalized financially or you know, maybe we are disabled or you know a lot of us are women there's lots of things going on, so I love that you kind of tie it into your like yes these people this these systems this oppression is here but our healing is in the return to who we are. Yes, and I say that with everything in me. Yes, and so rewinding a little bit to like I was saying what made me do this work I I was a good southern black child growing up and my my mama said you have two options for respectable jobs, you can be a lawyer or a doctor. We all got the same speech we got the same speech. And you know what's what's funny about that is that you know. I'm not that far removed from Jim Crow segregation right like we talk about enslavement as being this thing that happened so long ago, but it is meaningful the fact that I'm in the first generation of my family to go to integrated schools like that's meaningful yeah Ruby bridges is still alive. Like I need to understand that this history, you know this all it was so long ago it was yesterday in the grand scheme of things. And again, as you know, that disconnect from the history. And again, as you know, that we aren't told well, like that's part of the system and the plan of keeping us disconnected from who we are that we're out here saying well slavery was a long time ago yeah okay all right right I'm gonna try and I'm gonna try and stay focused just a little bit. So yeah, she gave me two respectable options, because I got in trouble for talking in school law seem to make the most sense for this is my home and but what I realized fast forward forwarding to my undergraduate degree at University of Georgia, I was like these these textbooks, like these books aren't really talking about black people in psychology, I realized like I had to pivot away from law, it just it didn't seem like it was going to be my jam so I thought about psychology so I love psychology but we weren't in the psychology textbooks, back in those days, folks would oftentimes say, if you are getting a degree in psychology, you have to get a PhD, well of course no one in my family had a PhD, but I thought sure why not I guess I'll just go get one. So yeah, she gave me two respectable options, back in those days, folks were like these these textbooks, back in those days, I was expecting to learn more about the psychology of black people in my graduate program. graduate programs who don't have access to advisors who look like us and definitely don't have access to advisors. We don't have access to advisors who look like us. And we definitely don't have advisors who don't look like us, but value the work that we do. So I was very fortunate and I'm, and I am, I am grateful to God and the universe for all the synchronicities throughout my life that have allowed me to get to this point because they are countless. Cause it wasn't me. I'm not magical. Well, I have some magic. And so he was a suicide researcher. So you have to be paired with someone and engage in the work that they are doing. And so I was kind of like, uh, well, black people don't die by suicide. This was in the mid nineties. Um, but okay, let's go look at the literature. Let's go look at the research. Yeah. Wait, what was that? Well, I mean, I'm shocked that you were in grad school in the mid nineties. I thought you were my age. Jesus. Black, black don't crack. It don't fade. Jesus. God. I'm like, this is a cute 40 year old maiden. Okay. Yes. Yes. So you were studying. Yes. Studying. Yes. And so I went and looked at the literature and at the time the rates were going up, they were going up then by about 200% and nobody was talking about it. And so I was like, sign me up, you know, let's talk about black suicide because we got to get the word up word out. So my dissertation was on trying to understand risk and resilience associated with suicide in black folks. Um, so I graduated, uh, I'm in Detroit now. I'm in my fifth university, um, full tenured professor by 1% of full tenured professors are black. Right. Um, but what happened in the midst of all that was that the suicide rate started to go up again. And this time it was in young black children. And I'm looking around because I, I, my work, my emphasis is not with youth and children, but I'm looking around and I'm thinking, okay, is anybody paying attention to this? Because we, we got to stop this. I do this work in part because I see suicide as preventable. If we have information, we know the people perish without knowledge. If we have information, then we can fix this. It turns out no one was going to write the book. And at that point, a couple of my synchronicities lined up. It's you. And I had to write the book. You had to. If nobody else had written the book, it's on you sis. And in my mind, it wasn't just about the children. It was about the community. It was about the community that had these really strong ties to who we have been all along. That's kept us present, not always safe, but at least present through all the things, through chattel slavery, through, through all the things. And I saw essentially children, 18 year olds, sometimes in my black psychology course who would say, why are we talking about Africa? You don't see me sitting around beating a drum. Wow. Jesus. And that was real. That was real. And because it's important to me to meet people where they are. I was like, we've been doing this for two weeks now. I don't know how you missed it, but that's okay. It's important to meet people where they are. I had to write the book. Especially to the grownups to say our children are struggling, but if psychologically we are overwhelmed with anxiety and untreated depression, how are we going to be there for our vulnerable children? Right. And so that was the perspective for me writing the book. It's unapologetic for two reasons. One, it's, it's black. It's a, it's a black book. And we have adopted a number of labels in order to be inclusive. But if I talk as I do in the book about like my personal experiences and how we communicate with one another and how we do, I need to be able to talk to us because I need the message to come through clearly. And I can't do that if I'm talking to everybody. That's so real. That's one part. And then the second part is that we have to get called out on some of the stuff that we do. Come on. Yes. Please pray. Please, please pray. I'm a God-fearing woman. I pray. I don't have a choice. Right. Sometimes I pray and don't even know I'm doing it. Because it's inherent. It's part of who we are. But if I'm talking to someone about a struggle and a difficulty I'm having, and they say, pray about it, what makes you think I haven't prayed? I need something else. I need something different. And so we have to, you know, stop relying on time. Right. Right. Right. Telling folks to just pray about it. Tell them what to pray for. Give them a strategy. Check on them the next day and two days later, bring them some food. Yeah. Community. Like we have to get out of some of the old shortcuts that we've taken and relearn how to be in community. And I get that the community has in a lot of ways figured out, like, we're all out here trying to survive. I get it. And send our children to integrated schools. I get it. But there are forces against us that we can't withstand individually. Yes. And we got to get it together. Yes. Yes. Exactly that. I'm so glad you put it that way, because that really is the point of it all for me. Like, yes, the community can be harmful as hell. And that's part of what I'm doing with all this education is like trying to heal the community because the community has been a source of hurt. But also, but also, it is a collectivist action that will save us. We cannot do it individually. One black person going up against systemic racism will get smashed out. But all of us together. Yes. So I, I love that you put it that way. And when you look at the state of black mental health right now, you know, with the context of everything, you know, and have learned and studied, what kind of jumps out to you the most or concerns you the most? Oh, what concerns me the most? We don't have enough providers who are prepared to meet the need. Yeah. Okay. Yep. Because we're starting to come out of the stigma some. And we're looking for providers. And I'm hearing way too often, and this has been happening for 20 years, to be honest. Part of what I do. So as a, as a tenured professor at a research intensive institution, I engage in research, but I, instead of seeing clients or therapy clients for me, because I can't maintain a practice and do all the things I can't, I can't do all the things. I supervise PhD students at our external, our community focused clinics. That's a whole other job. It is. It is. Because I watch video treatment plan. And there's so often that we see people who say I was in therapy and it didn't do anything or it was a bad fit. And we know what that means. So there, there aren't enough providers. And when I came through, there were fellowships to support people. I was the only PhD student in my cohort of 11, but I was on fellowship. It was, it was a state funded fellowship. And as you know, these things are under threat. We already don't have enough. And the fellowships that are funding diversity and inclusion are under attack. Yeah. My sister has a PhD and she's studying those exact things. So yes, everything you're saying I have heard from her too. It's like, we are, we're trying so hard to hold onto scraps and they are snatching it all. Yes. And I don't see, I don't see where the end is to that, to be honest. And so that's actually in part, in part why I wrote No Racial Elephants in the therapy room, primarily for white providers. Yes. Yes. Who need to step it up. Yes. And I, in my graduate program that I finished two years ago, this was something, now granted, I went to school in New York City. So we're a little more to the left and, and progressive than most other parts of the country, but it was very much like, look, 88% of therapists are white. And so, and 88% of you in this room are white. And so it is going to be your job as a white person to meet your clients of color where they are. You are going to have to work through your racism, your biases, and we all have them about something, you know, this, it was, you know, same way that you take a psychosocial aspects of disability class as an able-bodied person, because you need to learn about somebody else's experiences so you can meet them where they are. You are the practitioner. It is your job. It is not the client's job to meander past your racism and your unexamined biases in order to get care. And so I really appreciated that this was something that was taught in my program to white, you know, soon to be therapists, but I don't think everybody is doing it. And I don't think everybody, it's not a requirement, unfortunately, but we do need the white, you know, quote unquote allies. Because we need them to step up and do their job. Like you need to do, you need to be able to treat black people without them feeling like, oh, I got to go. go in here and explain why I felt angry at my boss for touching my hair you know like that is some things we should not have to have a conversation about and that's what seeing a practitioner who shares your background can really eliminate is like all of those little conversations where you're adding context and stuff and it's like what actually you should just get this you should just understand that that's a microaggression you know you don't have to be black to know that especially again as a therapist this is the the onus is on you sister so we definitely do need the white practitioners to be more on their job about it for sure but I think one of the things I've wanted to do is establish a scholarship fund for black people who want to go to school and get this degree because I would also love to see more black practitioners but you know that that can't be the the sole solution you yes and so it has to be a both and right so you know funding us to be able to provide care that is good care yes um and then you know also being able to because we we have multicultural classes right and I'm putting that in there oh yes we have multicultural yep um but that's kind of like okay we're going to treat every black person we're going to treat everybody who isn't white and heterosexual and able-bodied and we're going to put it in this one class and then you'll figure out how to go into the room with this person who is trying to navigate real racism on their job and get promoted at the same time right right like it's it's you know like and and without you crying Lord oh man and and even in the classroom it's like I it's black week it's Negro week in the multicultural class and now I'm dealing with the world and I'm coming in this classroom and I'm expected to be like gentle and understanding and compassionate while white people who don't know what they talking about babble around me like okay you're asking a lot like but I do get it and so um this episode is sponsored by better help if you could permanently delete one thing from your brain what would it be it might sound kind of silly and in the grand scheme of my life it probably is but I did have a failed romantic encounter earlier this year that really triggered me in like my deepest places and it's been harder than I thought it would to bounce back from that I let it take up way too much mental space for way too long before I finally just broke past the shame and talked to my therapist about it and I'm very glad I did because now I'm definitely moving on and feeling better but it was quite the emotional journey to get here if you've been thinking about starting therapy consider better help they have thousands of licensed experienced professionals who can help you work through whatever may be holding you back better help does the initial matching work for you all you have to do is complete a short 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psychological Fortitude since we're talking about you know this conversation around self-harm suicide that sort of thing so when you say psychological Fortitude what is it exactly that you mean by that and is it different in any real way from just resilience oh I like that uh well psychological Fortitude as I mentioned earlier it's important to for me to meet whoever I'm talking to where they are and we need more of that in society like just meet people where they are we don't have to talk over people um and I guarantee you there's folks in my family that's not gonna let me talk over them it's not gonna happen um but you know we have to meet people where they are and so as an example if I say and I'm sure you've had experiences where uh you ask somebody how they're doing and they say I'm doing fine uh or you know I'm good they might even say uh I'm blessed and highly favored oh yeah um but that doesn't capture how they're really feeling you know and so we've gotten into this automated space where we don't really share with people you know we don't want them in our business we don't think they really want to know uh we don't have time to go into all the things and so the first part of psychological Fortitude um is letting go of this language of mental health because when we hear mental health folks oftentimes will think well that doesn't really have anything to do with me I'm not losing my mind I'm not having a nervous breakdown you know we're starting to get more informed about mental health being inclusive but as you know we still don't have a good community based understanding of mental health um I think it's in part because it covers a lot but to be sure psychological Fortitude also kind of covers a lot uh but it starts with assessment so it starts with let me get a zero to ten rating of my capacity to function because that's what you know when we are diagnosing psychiatric where we're diagnosing mental health problems we're trying to understand is this person able to take care of their responsibilities at work and has this you know it's like I don't know it's it's like has this whatever they're dealing with has it affected their capacity to you know take care of their own health and to be able to take care of their responsibilities is that happening so y'all forgive me for going in all the different directions so it's zero to ten rating zero is basically no capacity to be able to take care of your or go to your job take care of your school work if you're in school because folks are doing both and sometimes uh take care of family we have a lot of chronic. illness in the community are you able to take your medicational time or are you forgetting and just running around so much that you can't even take care of your type 2 diabetes and your medication are you able to exercise walking moving the body has to be a part of what we all do and I know in New York it's it's much easier it is you got to walk you got to you know but where I grew up in Savannah Georgia everybody's getting in their car you know you don't have to you don't have to walk and sometimes you don't have time to walk so are you taking care of the things that you need to take care of are you resisting the threats to the things you know to the threats or the things that want to take you out because you never know where they are they catch you off guard are you able to manage the boss at work or the manager who gets on your last nerve are you able to do that and at the end of it all where you might be all those things resist the threats are you tapped into your purpose are you tapped into the reason that you are here because guess what if we can all tap into the reason we're here then we don't have stuff that's happening around us. Right. But so many things keep us from that purpose. So many things keep us from, and I, I, I'm, I'm that girl who makes everything about capitalism, but I mean, look around. We don't get to, you know, wake up whenever we feel like it and start our day with some lavender tea and then go read books for three hours and then paint and listen to music and frolic in the field. You know, we don't get to live like that. You know, it feels like life, this, this way we have set up society is set up to keep us from that. You're right. And that's why so many people are fleeing the U.S. Oh, well, yeah. Can't blame them either. Can't, really cannot. I've checked. Yeah. No, you're right. So, so those, those daily life stressors and things that get in the way that kind of chip away at our psyche. Psychological fortitude. Do you see that like over the years, maybe that it compounds and so you end up sicker and lonelier and like, or does it, does it tap out? Does it max out at some point where it's like, oh, this is all the misery a person can handle? Like what, what does that look like in the longterm? Well, you know, it's interesting because I think in the Black community, we see it take us out physically before anything else. We die early. Yeah. And there's research. You know, um, it's funny cause you were talking about age and things of that nature. And I think I'm just probably, I grew up with my mom being a nurse who take, who she took care of, uh, moms after they gave birth and it was a stressful, stressful job and I was like, I want nothing to do with that. And I've always been hypersensitive about my stress levels, like hypersensitive. Um, and I'll shut things down in a minute. My go-to is no, like I say, you have to convince me. You have to say yes. Um, I was super excited to say yes, to be here. Well, thank you. I'm glad, but I can tell that you take care of yourself and prioritize yourself and you don't let unnecessary stress have too much space in your life. I can, I can tell that just by looking at you cause it don't make sense for you to look this youthful. What's as a high school graduate, she looks like she just finished school, but anyway, I did, I did just finish school the other day. I was 10. I finished my PhD. So, so, okay. So being stricter, maybe about what we allow to permeate and take up space in our mind. And I, I, because I'm connected to what it, what my responsibility, what my assignment is here, I can't both do the assignment and do all the extra things. And keep my mind intact. I cannot, right. And that's not to say that my PF for psychological fortitude, that's not to say that I don't have PF of five. Sometimes, um, I was suspicious of my PF earlier today when I was taking out my twist and I was like, wait a minute, I'm not going to be on camera. Why am I taking up my twist? Cause I was in this sort of autopilot and I wasn't being mindful. And when those kinds of things happen, I pause. Just to do a check like, okay, where am I? Like, what, what do I need to pull back on so that I can show up as the person I need to show up as, you know, it's, this isn't easy work, but with practice, you know, we become more automated in protecting our psychological fortitude so that we can get to that place, you know, where we're tapped into our purpose. And we can say, my PF is at a, is at a 10. Oh yeah. Amazing. PF at 10. That's like, that's, you know, that's a high, high bar, but nine, that's too long. Right, right, right. What would that look like? You know, like take a moment just to imagine what that would look like. Maybe it would look like tea one day a week in the morning. Yeah, maybe. And so when you have that rating, you're able to be mindful of the things that undermine, compromise, take away from psychological fortitude, and then not maybe question so much. When a friend invites us to do something like, you know what, that would be good for my PF. I'm at about a six. That would take me to a seven. It doesn't have to be a perfect number. You just have to pay attention to like, it's relatively about a here. You know, I know overachievers like you would want to get the number right. You don't have to get the number right. I see it. It's okay. I'm over here thinking of decimal places. Like, how can I be the most accurate with my PF? It doesn't even have to be perfect. Oh, wow. Yeah. And guess what? If I ask you yours, and you say it's at a, you know, five on last Monday, then I know on Tuesday, I want to check in and say, hey, just checking on you. I know you were at a five yesterday. Maybe we can, you know, go grab something. We don't even have to talk about what's got you at a five. Right? Yeah. Just know that my presence. Just being around. The connection. Yes. Yes. It really is healing. It is. It is. And if you, what if your PF is at like a seven, eight or nine, but everybody around you is at like a one, two, three, how do you, where, how do you help others without hurting yourself or swinging too far in the other direction and kind of like taking on a therapist type of role with your friends and other people in your community? Ooh. Yeah. Cause you said, you said something earlier about like, maybe, you know, I don't want to be a, I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be, I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I don't want to be in a situation where I even be able to keep themselves safe. And so, and it's hard for me to separate my professional identity from Rita. Yeah, I get it. I fully get that. And so I think probably at the end of the day, when it comes to people's safety, I'm Dr. Rita and I'm letting them know I'm, I am concerned about your capacity to stay safe. And then I just say that, but this is the thing. Anyone who's concerned about a loved one can say, I'm concerned about where you are. Like we don't have to dig into people's stuff. I do think that for some people, it's kind of a vulnerability to say, I'm concerned. Cause then I'm like, cause they might say, why are you concerned? You know how we do. Yeah. No, don't worry about me. Worry about you. Worry about your house, your man. That's exactly what we do. But we can't worry about what they're going to say. We can't worry about the response. We have to say it. I, I am, I am concerned about whether or not you're going to be here tomorrow and then just see what they say. And they might say, you don't have to worry about me. I know I don't, but, but I am, I'm going to send you some food. I'm just going to send you a door dash. It's, you know, that takes resources. I'm hoping that somebody's at an eight or a nine, at least they're meeting their own needs and maybe they're able to help meet that of someone else. I go back to food because it's so basic. It's such a basic need, you know, but, but, you know, when you're overwhelmed, you don't even know like, how am I going to eat? Where am I going to get the food? Like, like people are overwhelmed and can't do basic things. So help them with the basic things. You know, are they a parent? If you have the energy, you could say, I can go grab the kids for an hour, one hour. That is magical for overwhelm. I know it is. I know it is magical. Yeah. And don't take them to McDonald's too, boy. Let them jump around on the, in the playland for an hour and a half, two hours. If they're in the playland and you just. Incredible. And you, you changing somebody's life. Okay. Yes. So instead of trying to, you know, I'm going to send you some food. I'm going to send you some food. I'm going to help, you know, in this advanced smarty art way. And then like, Oh, let's dig through your trauma or whatever. Let's just start by addressing your needs, your basic needs that aren't being met because that will go so far. And you're so right. Like if those things are missing, you can have therapy all day. If you're starving, it does not fucking matter. Does not. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So on the other end, then the people who are maybe, maybe one, two and it's too low, but I'm, I'm thinking of people whose PF is, is maybe, um, on the higher end, at least, or maybe at least appears that way. They're like the strong friend. They're the one everybody calls. They're the one that it seems like everything's going well for you and you just really on your shit. Um, and I think a lot of us, uh, identify with that and we take some pride in it that, you know, we're so useful to everybody else, but at what point does being useful and community turn into self-abandonment? Cause I, I fully agree that we need to, we need to be coming together. Like we need to be doing more things as a collective and really building that strength, but Some people only get extracted from and people don't pour back into them. Well, those people have to be honest with themselves about their psychological fortitude. I mean, that's just it. I can't say to that person who is overdoing because I know there's a reason that they're overdoing. Like they're compensating for some need to be needed. Yep, always. I'm not going to, you know, fight them on that. But guess what? I might say, you know, I just noticed that you're just always running for everybody else. What do you do for you? And then she's going to cry because somebody actually asked her about her feelings for the first time in probably all year. So, yeah. Yeah. And she cries and you just say, oh, what are the tears? Yeah. Yeah. I do not like the word why. It is not in my vocabulary because it sounds real judgy. Mm-hmm. Um, but, you know, oh, my goodness. Tears? That's all we, you don't have to have a sophisticated thing. Yeah. And yes, she will just unfold. Well, I can't believe you asked because this and this. And you had no idea. But we have to create the room, right? We have to be concerned and curious without doing extra. Right. And I honestly think this is why it's so important to reach as many people. In the community as possible because it's best if this starts in childhood, which means we need to get to parents and caregivers to get them to understand, like, the ways to interact with children that are the most useful, the most helpful, the healthiest for these kids, as opposed to maybe what we've grown up with or what we've always known. So it's like if we could start this at age eight. Yes. Talking to these kids about, like, so how are you feeling? And what are the tears about? Like, not with judgment, but with curiosity. Like, I'm curious about your world and your experiences, that sort of thing. I think it just, we could change lives. We really could if we could get to these people sooner. Yeah. Can I tell you a story? Of course. Please do. During the pandemic, I got some bad food. I was sick. Oh, no. Oh, no. And my son was upstairs. He'd been upstairs. He was playing video games. And he came be bopping down the stairs. And he saw me. And he was like, Mom, are you OK? He was nine at the time. Mom, are you OK? And I said, I'm fine. Because, you know, as parents, you don't want to put on your kids. And he said, on a scale from zero to ten. I clocked you. He said, oh, wait a minute. Let's talk about it. You know, from when he was three, because, you know, he knew numbers. That's all we got. It's so it's so simple. You know, numbers. And this is the this is the gotcha. I said I was about a five or six. I don't remember. And he said, can I get you some water at nine? He assessed what was happening and attempted an intervention. That is so sweet. And it was the best water. It was the best water. Well, it's definitely the most thoughtful. Water, my goodness. It's not it's not rocket science. And you're right. We can start this with our children. Yeah, because they don't oftentimes even have words for how they're doing or what's going on. But we can ask them, you know, where are you on this? How upset with you? How angry are you? Like we can we can modify it to get it what's going on in that moment. And there are multiple occasions. And I consider myself a very astute psychologist. There are multiple occasions where I asked him for a number and the number he gave me was nowhere near the number I was thinking. Oh, because you don't always know. We and we definitely don't know what's going on in the minds of other people. Right. Right. Life is all about making decisions. Sometimes you make questionable ones, like buying a new TV that's too big for the wall because the electronics store employee was a little too good at their job. Then sometimes you make great ones. Like protecting your home and auto with Progressive. You get customized coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage. Get your quote today at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers not available in all states. If you have any questions or other problems, please contact us at Progressive.com or call us at 1-800-422-7000 or call us at 1-800-422-7000. We're here to help you save a life. Libre, the original eau de parfum. Yves Saint Laurent. Head to Ulta Beauty. Not sure? Ulta Beauty. So, I just know that there are multiple people out there who have listened to this episode and they're like, Oh, I'm afraid this fucking play is about me. I'm hearing myself. I'm being talked about in this conversation. And maybe I have actually not been okay in a long time. Maybe not ever. So, where does that person start? Other than, you know, running to buy your book. What do we do after that? You know, and I have heard people say that. Like, so many people are like, Oh, my goodness. How are you talking to me? Because it's a shared experience. And I think that's so important for folks to know. That while a big part of this is about you. Part of our issues, if I can put that in air quotes, a big part of the issues is we feel like we're somehow the only one who's having this reality. It's just not true. Yep. And we can bond over that. Over the fact that because I spoke to Black people, so many Black people can say, Oh, my goodness, that's me. But I've heard from heterosexual white men. I've heard from all sorts of folks. Like, Oh, my goodness, this was so helpful. And they can download the audio book, too. So, I will mention that. Get the audio book. All the things. Love that. And, you know, just start with being mindful. And while reading and even in hearing this conversation, it's okay to give grace. Like, we don't have to judge the fact that I've been doing this my whole life. 30, 40, 50, 60 or more years. It's okay. At my big age, I'm still figuring some things out. Because we have to understand. And learn and undo some of the stuff that we've done just because we're trying to survive. We're trying to figure out how to get from Monday to Tuesday. Yeah. And it's okay. I'm so glad you said that because I think for a lot of people, there is a great deal of shame. And they maybe don't even know it. But to admit, even to themselves, like, Oh, I have not been living the way that I really want to. I have not been living. I have not been living in alignment with my values or something's just been off and I've been trying to ignore it and take care of everybody else. Like somebody people feel shame for not doing the things that they think they are supposed to have done or should have done. And so I think, you know, hearing you say, well, you know, just start off with the acknowledgement and looking around and being real with yourself about this. Like, I think I think a lot of people need to hear that, that you may have to push through those initial feelings of like, Oh, what have I done? What am I this and this and this? But if there was an easy way to do all this work, I promise you, we would have come up with it by now. Yeah. We would have fast tracked it by now, baby. But you have to face those things. And the more you sit with those difficult feelings, the easier it will be to do that. But you got to start somewhere. Even if it's just 30 seconds of being real with yourself. Start with those 30 seconds. Yes. Start with the 30 seconds. Start with, OK, what what is my number? Is my number a six? But I know it's really a three. OK. What makes me feel compelled to inflate my number? What is that? What what is that? Yeah. It's OK. But, you know, maybe spend some time with what is going on right now. It's funny that you said should with a little head tilt. Well, because, you know, because should is one of those words that I think needs to be removed from the entire vocabulary. I write about it in the book. Should is should. Shoulding on ourselves has gotten a lot of us in trouble. Indeed, should is one that, you know, that's in grad school where I was like, oh, let go of should, baby. There's a million different ways to live. There's a billion different ways to be. So should is pressure. And we need to interrogate where all the pressure, where all of the pressure is coming from. Some of it is inherent in how we've learned to survive. You know, for those of us who identify as as black women, you know, we think part of being black woman is taking care of everyone else because that's what we always see. Mm hmm. So, OK, so if you don't do that, does that mean somehow you're not a real black woman? Ooh, that can't be it. Must mean that there's more than one way to be a black woman. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. We have to expand definitions. That's part of what psychological fortitude is doing. Yes. Expanding the definitions, first getting real with the number and then expanding. Like, how do we take away some of the things or remove some of the things from our lives that's undercutting our psychological fortitude when possible or even for 15 or 20 minutes a day? And then how do we find the ways to add to our psychological fortitude, even in small ways? Like and don't just do it and keep pushing. Evaluate how helpful was this? How does this feel in my body? Oh, I like that. Mm hmm. Yeah. I'm going to do more of that. For sure. For sure. Yeah. Or that didn't feel so great. I'm going to try something else next time. Try something else. Yeah. It's trial and error. But, you know, a lot of us are perfectionists. We don't get it right the first time we beat ourselves up and never try again. So I'm talking to you because I'm talking to me, girl. Yes, exactly that. Oh, my goodness. Dr. Dr. Rita, thank you so, so much for sharing your time and your insights on the couch. Please tell the people where they can find you. Is this is this psychological fortitude assessment on your Web site or in your book? Because this sounds amazing. I guess I'm like, it's like it sounds like the PHQ-9. I want to take it. It's it's in the book. OK. And it's in the workbook. Love a workbook. Love a workbook. Workbook. Yeah. It's a it's a whole system in the workbook. I've seen so many. I'm actually going to be I'm at the Black Mental Wealth Expo. I was trying to get there to you, but I realized one of my limitations was public transportation. Mm hmm. Um, that's so, so valid. But I've seen so many copies of people's books where they've written in the margin and they've done all these things and they've highlighted. And so with the workbook, it really walks us through like step by step. Here's how you assess your psychological fortitude. Need that. Yep. Here's some of the things to increase and decrease. Here is how you work through those shoulds that we love. Oh, I'm getting this workbook. Oh, boy. Ordering this today. Oh, thank you. So, so please. Yes. Tell the people where they can find you, your website and all that. Yes. So it's DrRitaWalker.com and Rita is spelled R-H-E-E-D is in diamond A because I come from a black family. It's beautiful. So DrRitaWalker.com. I am most active on my Instagram. So I'm everywhere. DrRitaWalker. So, yeah, definitely check it out. Get the book. You know, let me know how it's changing lives. I love, love, love those messages. Because it helps me to stay connected to my purpose, knowing how I'm helping others. Same. Every time I get a message or somebody says, you know, I just really appreciate what you're doing with this show. It's like, OK, that's why I do it. That's why I do it. It's helping somebody somehow. And that was the point. Community and and healing together is indeed the point. So thank you again, Dr. Walker. Make sure to put all your links and everything in the description for the episode. And we'll tag you on Instagram and et cetera so that people can find you. And I'll let you know. Because I'm absolutely getting that workbook. So I'm going to let y'all know about how Dr. Rita dragged me through the pages of her workbook. Thank you again, Dr. Rita Walker, for being my guest this week on Crystal's Couch. You can follow us online at Crystal's Couch. And if you have a question for me, please send me an email. Advice at Crystal's Couch dot com. We'll see you next week. Sometimes you make questionable ones. Like buying a new TV that's too big for the wall because the electronics store employee was a little too good at their job. Get your quote today at Progressive dot com. You better think. Think about what you're trying to do to me. You better think. Freedom. Let yourself free. Freedom. Let your mind go. Freedom. Free at heart. Libre. Yves Saint Laurent. Head to Ulta Beauty. We have gifts they'll love. From brands like Tate 01 and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. 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