Session 42 ft. Dr. Taylor Cummings

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Hi, and welcome to Crystal's Couch, the show where I answer your letters for advice and talk to the most interesting people in the world. Today, I am joined by Dr. Taylor Cummings. She's an educational psychologist. Whose work explores belonging, motivation, consciousness, and how we come to understand ourselves. She looks beyond just how we move through the world and asks us to think about the systems and experiences that have shaped us in the first place, especially as Black people. So today we're talking about belonging, navigating spaces that were not necessarily built for us, the pressure to adapt in order to succeed, and what it looks like to separate who we truly are from who we've learned we needed to be. Two different things. Dr. Taylor Cummings, welcome to Crystal's Couch. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for being here. So tell us a little bit about your degree and what you do. Oh, absolutely. So I have a PhD in educational psychology, and a lot of my focus, as you mentioned, is around what it means to be self-determined. And within self-determination theory within educational psychology, it says that we need to have a sense of autonomy, a sense of competence, and a sense of belonging. And I really was like, okay, what does this belonging piece mean for us as Black folks? What does it mean for me to have psychological membership to an institution, or a society, or a community that, like you said, is not for us, is not for me? And so I was like, I actually want to sit with this for a minute. What does that mean for us to get our students to belong? What does that mean for us to get—and so I started to problematize that and start to question what that meant for me. And so, of course, we have a lot of folks who have done this work in belonging, but really sitting with who you are and your positionality and your experiences was really important for me. And so I came across autoethnography as a method. It was a method that I can understand belonging and motivation through my own life experiences. And so for my dissertation, I did a life study from pre-K to the Ph.D. about my experiences navigating the system. Your Ph.D. is about you? Yeah, yeah. Know thyself. Oh. I—that is cunt. I would like to take that as a compliment. No, absolutely. That is incredible. Oh, I love that. And it's called "The Miseducation of Taylor Cummings." I really might read your book. I will read your dissertation. This sounds incredible. It's coming. And it's actually embargoed right now. Oh, okay. So when you go online, it'll say it's not published until 2032. Got you. But it's because I am working on articles, books, film. Like, there's a universe, you know, to come out of this work in terms of how I want to share my story and the work that I did through the academy with the world. So this is so interesting because the concept of, like, what does it really mean to belong as a Black person in spaces that weren't built for us while you're getting a Ph.D. Yeah. It feels very meta. Yes. And I had to keep reminding, like, faculty, peers, like, the things I'm talking about and discussing, I'm going through this right now. Right now with y'all. Like, right now. Like, right now. In this conversation. They're like, what's the process? Like, a lot of tears. I cried a lot. It was a lot of crying. A lot of, who the hell signed me up for this? And it's like, I did. Yeah. You know? But that's a part of the larger purpose, the larger calling and all these types of things. And so reckoning with the work. And so a lot of my work had to deal with that emotional just anguish, quite honestly. But the pressure, too, to say, like, okay, these are not my values. But I had to understand, if I'm doing, if I'm able to navigate this space, and that's the gift. Yeah. Who am I to abandon that? You know? And so I felt there was a level of responsibility. And it just became larger than me at that point. Like, this is not about me. And my spiritual nature was at the center of my work as well. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was another method in terms of, I use autoethnography and intuitive inquiry to talk about how I collected my data. Okay. Because I was gonna say, can you talk to us a little bit more about autoethnography and what does that entail? Absolutely. Yeah. So ethnography is the study of culture. The auto piece, like an autobiography, is the self. Right? So it was like, okay, you're looking at your life within culture. And it's not just, you know, there's a difference between autobiographical work and autoethnographic work in the terms that you're now connecting your life story to the broader culture and the broader system. Okay. So it was in society. So I'm looking at my life and I'm understanding race, class, gender. I'm understanding the things that I'm having to navigate. And in terms of my positioning, it was all about the education system and the indoctrination that we received there and religious systems. So I grew up in the church. Yes. I grew up in private Christian school. And so I really needed to look at everything that was happening in terms of me psychologically and how that impacted my self-concept, my ability to just understand what it really meant to be. Yeah. And what the purpose of being was all about. So autoethnography, it was like a deep, deep, just because I was already on that journey of self. And like, I hit this point in my twenties where I just, I need to find myself. I need to find my, you don't even know where that came from. Like, where do you even hear that? It's like, you hear, it's like, I need to find myself. And I just had this, and I've always had a lot of questions as a young girl. And so I feel the PhD, the autoethnography allowed me to be me and ask the questions that I wanted to ask and find a way to get to those answers. Right. Okay. So, uh, what did you find? What's going on with black people in this white world? Yeah. Yeah. So we know that assimilation, right, is one of those tools that we've been socialized to believe is for our survival. Um, this can cause a lot of psychological distress. It can cause a splitting of the self, of the psyche. And so there's a book I love called Yurugu by Dr. Marimba Ani. And probably even before I get there, I'm going to go Dr. Amos Wilson, and we're going to talk about the falsification of African consciousness and understanding that when you are socialized. In a Eurocentric worldview, it causes psychological dysfunction within you. And so I was like, okay, if we know this to be true, and it's not just for black people, it's for all people, white people also experience a psychological distress because of their worldview because it is not aligned with reality. And so I was like, okay, I need to really understand how our worldviews have been constructed. Right. And we know, like I said, that's through their K through 12 system that's through the church. And a lot of what I'm noticing is that folks, we cling to it because it's our only sense of reality. So I was really interested in that gap between those who understood I need to do something about what I understand to be true. And then how you get there, because it's scary there, you got to leave all that alone. And especially when it's tied to your livelihood, when it's tied to your economics and your job and your stability, you got to feed people. So what does it look like to stand on your own? And so I'd say, because it's an autoethnography, I'm watching myself in that process, right? And so I've had to bet on myself in a lot of instances. But in terms of the psychological capacity, I'm really understanding how external validation had a lot to do with our sense of self. And are we doing the right thing? Are we on the right track? What my motivation looks like? So my findings have a lot to do with releasing ourselves from that needing to be accepted. We don't need to be accepted, respected, supported and included by an oppressive entity. What does it mean when you are accepted by something that is unjust? What does it mean for me to be successful in a system that is unjust? That means I have to become. As such, right, I have to live by that those rules in order to so the people who often are, you know, on the outskirts of society are the ones who are rebellious, who are not fitting into that space. And so I'm watching us even now as a people, it's like, we say we want freedom, we say we want liberation, but our actions aren't aligning because so much of our livelihood is tied to this system. Yes, we have things to lose. Yeah. So I'd say it has a lot to do with external validation and my findings had a lot to do with supportive networks. And I think that's how important it is to have, you know, people in your life that get you see you. And even if they are confused by you, they let you be and they respect your process. You know? Like, you know, that girl always been a little weird, but we let her have it. You know? That reminds me of my grandma being like, "Y'all leave her alone, let her read." Because I would just sit around and read all day. My cousins are doing, you know, their red shit. And I'm just like, "I want to read." Yeah. And I was a reader. And I think that has a lot to do with it, too. Like, my mother was an educator. So she had us in the books. Like, that was, it was part of your punishment, too. You know? But it was a part of, like, life. Oh, some punishment. I have to go read. I used to love that. Like, "Oh, I got to sit in my room." Yes. Like, "Can we go to the library?" Right. And so, that was a big part of my work, too. You know? Yeah. So, that was a big part of my work, too. It was a big part of my life. Yeah. Yeah. I do. Like, I actually talked a lot about my upbringing and punishment and how we handle that. And I did spend a lot of time grounded and in my room and in solitude. Yeah. Right. And so what did that mean for me in my inner world and my inner experience and my emotional regulation and how I learned, you know, to do that or what I didn't learn because of that. And so, yeah, autoethnography, I love it as a tool, especially within academia, because it is like a fuck you. It is like I'm going to do regardless, you know, and this is me validating my own lived experiences as knowledge. And I think that's what's huge about African centered practices. And since my work with autoethnography, I came into afronography and I was like, oh, that's even more lit. Sounds even better. And then there's autoafronography. So that's my next that's my next thing. OK. So that's my next thing. And I'm excited for that. The evolution of this and just my life journey and for others to see themselves in the work as well. Yes. And I. I love that all of this is about like discovering your inherent worth and your intrinsic value. And I mean so much outside of these systems. And at the same time, you are getting the ultimate external validation in the form of a Ph.D. But all of this knowledge is about how you don't really need these people to validate that within you. Yeah. You really that girl. It was big for me. And it was a struggle because when people hear Ph.D., they hear, oh, you're getting a doctorate. So they have these assumptions about who they think you are. What they think you are or what they think your value is. And I value education. I don't value the education that my oppressor has given me. But I understand. And that's schooling. Right. So the differences between schooling and education are very, very important. Yeah. Yes. I'm glad you get it. That's exactly what it was. Yes. Especially these days. What we're doing with these kids is not so much education. Like we are not focused on what children need. And really, I don't know that. America has ever had the best interests of these kids at heart because we would pay teachers and equip the schools and, you know, little things, little things, you know, that make the world go round. But it was that for me, too, because I was like, OK, there's no reason we're going all these years of school. K through 12. We're getting out and we're like, who am I? What do I want to do? What do I like? School is supposed to be an introduction to that. You are supposed to maybe be exposed to things that you didn't know so much about. And, you know, it's. School is supposed to show you all these different windows and doors into a different life and different possibilities. That's actually what I loved about reading as a kid was it could just take me away from here. Y'all go being so mean and unfair and making me stay in my room, you know, into these different worlds. And it was just like a free way to travel outside of my mind. That's exactly what you think of the Reading Rainbow theme song. Yes. I can go anywhere. OK. Yeah. Now we're talking about the heartstrings. But. This episode of Crystal's Couch is brought. To you by BetterHelp. If you go wake up tomorrow and automatically be better at one thing, what would that one thing be? OK, now it can be something serious or something fun and silly. For me, I would be so good at basketball that the WNBA would draft me right now. You know, never mind the fact that I'm five three and I was born in the nineteen hundreds. They're like, wow, it's Jackie Young all over again. We need her on our team. OK, we're deep in the WNBA season. Right now. And I'm having so much fun at the games and watching with friends, things like that. So that was just, you know, like a fun little thing that I would love to do if I could. But really, better is a feeling and that feeling is defined by you. And for BetterHelp, it's a BetterHelp therapist who really gets you. It's a focus on global emotional well-being with thousands of therapists and millions of members in over 100 countries. What it really is, is progress. So sign up and get 10 percent. Off today at BetterHelp.com slash Crystal. That's BetterHelp.com slash C-R-I-S-S-L-E. Like most people, I'm juggling lots of responsibilities on a daily basis. And let's just be real. 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So we've talked a little bit about like the messages that black people receive. About like who we're supposed to be in order to belong. Can we, can we, you said that there are psychological things that happen when we don't have that, when we're not seen, supported, understood, etc. Can we, can we talk a little bit more about what it's like for people who are constantly having to navigate environments where they don't feel fully accepted or supported? Yeah, I'd say anxiety and depression are big two. Oh, those are the, I mean, they're the big two, period. When you don't feel, yeah, period. But it's like, you're, because it's like, okay, you're questioning self-doubt. You're always in your head and you, you're, you're so heady, you're not in your body and you don't, we don't know how to be present. And so we're nervous to speak. We're nervous to meet people. We're nervous to be in spaces to potentially meet people that may meet our needs, you know. But it is a matter of understanding, you know, who and what we are and that, that confidence is really important. But depression, you know, because as you're having these repetitive experiences of negativity. Yes. Yeah, and so that's why self-definition is so important for me. Okay. Because instead of, you know, I am anxious or I am scared or I am nervous or nobody likes me or I don't have anybody in this world or there's no, you know, I don't fit in anywhere. These are the things that we're seeing and creating and saying to ourselves and that we find that in our reality as well, you know. And so I think there's the both and of the agency. And I think that was really important for me with belonging. It always felt like when we talk about it, it's on the, the environment to explain. It's on the environment to say, okay, well, where is my empowerment in this? Where's my choice and my agency and me deciding where I want to or don't want to belong? Right. You know, and so I think that can change the story that we tell ourselves. But I think it is a lot of panic. It is a lot of anxiety. It is a lot of things that deal with our self-concept. As I mentioned previously, your image of self, your self-perception largely guides the choices that you make. And if we don't feel we're worthy. Or we're deserving, we're going to take ourselves out of the game before we get a chance to play. We're going to tell ourselves no before someone gives us a chance at yes. We're going to do all these things because we're so limited in our understanding of who we are and what we can do. And so the confidence to me is what I'm seeing because I think that that's what I don't really get into the pathologizing of behavior too much. I feel as though what we do, we seek to look at the individual and say, okay, well, you have this, this, this, this, and this rather than understanding. Okay. This is the. Context. This is the conditions. These are the circumstances. And of course they're anxious because they don't know where they're going to get their next meal from. And on top of that, when they go into this environment, they're dealing with micro and macroaggressions and they're dealing with all these things. So rather than looking at the individual, I like to look at the system. And so I move a little away from diagnostic models, especially because I'm not a clinical mental health psychologist, but also because African psychology, black psychology traditions teach us that, you know? And so that's also Dr. Amos Wilson, our Dr. Naeem Akbar. All of our OGs in the ABCI community will help us think about, let's stop looking at what's wrong with the individual and the negative things that are happening within them. And let's start looking at how we can change conditions to contribute to positivity, contribute to health and wellness. Yeah. Sometimes we focus too much on the symptom and not what's going on underneath it. And I mean, I get it when a person's behaviors are really destructive or really disruptive. I can see how it can be like, okay, girl, we got to figure it. We got to. Yeah. We got to slap some diagnosis on this because what are you doing? But like you said, what's underneath that and the systems around them, how the world has shaped them, their own beliefs and, you know, other things that might be going on. That is all, I think, far more interesting. And that was that's what sort of prompted me to to not just continue in therapy for so long, but to also go to grad school because it's like there is something behind this. And I love how I was just talking to Dr. Donna Oriolo. And she mentioned something that was. So similar to what you just said about we make decisions based off of like what we feel we deserve. And if we feel like who we are is inherently undesirable or less than or whatever else, then we will make decisions that reflect that because we don't really see like the fullness of who we are. And black people, especially black women, tend to really be affected by that because we don't get that reflection from the greater culture that like there's value in who we are. We see it extracted in certain ways, especially in popular culture and things like that but actually valuing us as full human beings is a completely different story yes and that to me as well like the subconscious mind is mostly what I'm interested in in terms of psychology I the brain there you know there's functional X but I'm talking to me about what's really going on because that's what's controlling everything and it's always running it's always recording it's picking up everything and so even if we think we don't feel that way about ourselves yeah even if we think like there's something still there yes and so I think that's what meditation and I'm very holistic and I think that's just necessary in terms of our spiritual practice and understanding the mind right and I'm always talking about the difference between the brain and the mind because in psychology limiting it to but then even there's so many undiscovered not even undiscovered that's the wrong word under under under the it's not even theorized under studied under research yeah under research under studied and like just even like I've been in classes and I've asked about well the pineal gland and professors will kind of scoff or laugh or kind of but it's like it's a real part of our brain so those are the things that I'm most interested in and understanding how they impact us because we know that our subconscious mind is is controlling the show yes it is and I love that you said regardless of whether we're aware that we feel this way something in us is definitely feeling this way and you can almost always clock it in them behaviors so what you think you're doing and what you think you know or feel about yourself like I think a lot of people go around saying that they feel good about themselves they like themselves of course they do they love themselves actually but it doesn't show in the way you take care of yourself the way you show up for yourself the way you talk to yourself the things you really feel and believe about yourself so yeah I can see how when you are faced with hostility especially in the workplace and you don't really feel like you belong or that you're you're X fully accepted you're constantly having like code switch and feel like you need to prove yourself and all that it all contributes to this sort of greater feelings of distress like you said higher levels of depression anxiety and you use the word panic which I thought was so interesting I'm hearing that more and more yeah panic attacks and not to say that that wasn't always the case right no but I just think people are feeling that more yeah yeah yes social anxiety is every yeah I mean when you look at this society it's not hard to see why the girls aren't feeling safe it's tough like it really is right so you're trying to I think what's so interesting about this and sort of the the bridge that are or the gap I'm trying to bridge here with this show is that like academics talk about all these great concepts and theories and all these sorts of things but like how do we bring that over to the real life how do we how do we take all this knowledge and research and learning and bring it to real people and actually affect you know their day-to-day lives what do we do with that because I don't have the the power that the people in DC have to to change our we would all be living you know we're not concerned with them right we're talking about on top self-determination or talking about self-governance like I mean that in the very literal sense yes this was an educational psychology theory but I chose it because that's what I'm talking about and so speaking of self-governance don't worry about I think don't want you making loss for me you know because you're not even making the best loss for yourselves right so I think that's a part of it too and when we're talking about the layers of what we're dealing with but you also just said something as well when you say what do we do and how do we translate it to the real world I think it's a part of people being honest about what their healing journeys are looking like oh what are you really doing because I tell you a lot I do that a lot on this show and I know you know as somebody with a degree I know the value behind it I also know that sharing your story makes you vulnerable I know that I know that sharing your story makes you vulnerable I also know that sharing your story makes you vulnerable and for a lot of people the criticism or the the disbelief or the questioning your experiences that sort of thing that can be hard to go up against who you really got to be strong in yourself to be like not only do I know who I am I'm ready to tell my story and nobody is gonna rewrite it for me and you can't shame me out of it because I know that I know that I know that I know because of what I've experienced right and I cannot deny my experiences yes and that's why I'm like it's not about the degrees it's not about any of that it's about there's a there's a sense of truth yeah and there's a sense of understanding and there's sense of freedom that I've always been seeking and I know others are seeking that as well and so this is my path and what we can learn from that I have it you know but it's about us and it's about knowledge of self and everyone has to embark on that journey if they're willing right you know if they choose to if they're willing and everybody is not and that's their choice but yes I think that's so valid and we just you know we're out here doing the best we can but sometimes the behaviors that have helped us cope to a certain point you know they end up causing a lot more harm in the long run like you said we're feeling more disconnected from ourselves so how do you tell the difference between okay I'm adapting in this white man's world I'm going to get my job and you know take care of my home my kids etc where's the line between that and I am now abandoning parts of myself in order to fit into this society in this world I think you understand that in those moments when you're alone it's easy to feel like oh I'm doing the thing I'm doing what I need to do that it out when everything's moving and rocking and shaking but when you sit back how are you actually feeling are you is your heart still longing for something is it still seeking to achieve something is there something you've been wanting to do that you haven't yet or you're still trying to discover what my purpose is and so I think that can help people determine that because I think that you can have a bomb nine-to-five that's aligned with your higher calling and purpose and I think if you're doing it quote-unquote right that's what's gonna happen you're gonna have that alignment oftentimes I said but I think it is a matter of people just being real you know and and what are we projecting versus what is really real and what is really happening and how do you really feel about the life that you're living because you're gonna have to account for that yes and what is the difference between what you want people to think about you and how you so you have to you have to be able to be honest with yourself even in the quiet moments with yourself yeah yeah yeah that's when it matters it doesn't matter any other time you know it really matters you and you and you're gonna have to be okay like you said making decisions that other people may not understand because they may want certain things for you or expect certain things of you right and if it's not aligned with what you feel you need mm-hmm you have to be okay with making that choice yes and in an evolutionary sense that's a hard choice to make we're hardwired to want to be part of the group yes we don't want to break away from the community you know that meant harm and danger and increased risk of all sorts of bad things so we have definitely evolved to be like I can't I can't go against everybody I know I can go get this mama and daddy in the church and everybody else like what will I do without my community and we don't always see that like sometimes you're better off without that whoever without that default of whoever just happened to be there and you're much better off when you can be intentional about your community and the company you keep yeah and I think it has a lot to do with our our perception of what it means to be an individual right because we've been hijacked by this elitist individualism and all these types of things that are very hierarchical and so one of my mentors who's and I don't really like that use that word either but so the person who got me into at psych he wrote an article dr. DeLeon gray about standing out and fitting in and so that was just like my base of really understanding this complexity around belonging right and as someone who always had friends popular you know was on sports teams arts dance you know did the thing like I was always had a lot of love and people around but you're there's still a little bit of a yeah so figuring out what that looks like and what that means so not everyone has like stories of isolation right or just complete like disconnection but you're still trying to find your place right in the world and I think there's a way where we can be ourselves and we have to be ourselves because that's your role and that's your your code and your blueprint and that's your job and that's what makes the society the society in the community the community but if you're trying to do my job and I'm trying to be you then who's being you you know so we really have to like tap into what it is that we're here to do and I I'll bring it to and I don't know this is too far or the beaten path but it's for me it's about genetic code and our DNA and what our DNA is here to express and that's just what it comes down to interesting so do you you are you just blew my mind with that now I'm like so you do you feel like am I understanding this like we as humans have a purpose that is encoded in our DNA absolutely where which strand is that I think there's a that's what they're trying to figure out oh no like that's the human that's the that's the human genome project that's the junk DNA that's the only things we're trying to figure out what is this like what who what are we made of what are our capacities what are our capabilities and they know we know with epigenetics and these types of things that you can change genes they evolve yeah and so we're understanding what that relationship looks like right now but I'd say a lot of ancient civilizations had a strong understanding of DNA well yes and we're seeking to remember and water has memory I don't know if you saw Frozen yeah but yeah I mean I was gonna say you sound like you yeah you're like for sure but for sure yeah the earth knows that's what this journey is about yes it's about remembering who you are and what you are why are you here returning to the source yes okay sometimes quick acts of preparation make all the difference I've been doing this a lot lately and it really does help to set yourself up for success like I leave my sunglasses right by the door so I can just grab them on my way out I lay out the next day clothes before I go to bed at night and I've been meal prepping more regularly but before things get even busier this fall with back to school and the holidays coming up I want to make sure I check off one to do that can safeguard my family's future by quickly finding free life insurance quotes tailored to our needs with Policy Genius at Policy Genius it's easy to set your family up for whatever the future may bring as we age of course so do our elders and it can be hard to have real conversations about life insurance not to mention how time-consuming it can be to actually find a policy. 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What does that mean in everyday life? Yeah so decolonize we know we all we got the colonizers. We got it. We know what that is. Yes so to dee, to un, to anti. Yes. Right it's a matter of I love studying pre-colonial civilizations. Okay. Who were we before this group of people came around and did what they felt they needed to do. Before the slave trade. Yeah. Before the slave trade, the Arabic slave trade. The Maafa is how Dr. Marimba Ani describes every horror that has impacted African people across the diaspora. The Maafa. The Maafa. M-A-A-F-A. Maafa. And so it includes the transatlantic slave trade. It includes all these things and so. Okay never heard that term before but I love that you're like we got one word for all of these. Well it's just this idea of like this concept of like how can we describe what has you know taken place and we often try to compartmentalize these activities but they're all interconnected. You know their economy, this trade, the government, all of this is they gotta they got their thing rocking. Yeah. You know and so we need to figure out what ours looks like and so in terms of decolonizing it is about ridding ourselves from European concepts and understanding. So I talk a lot about conceptual incarceration and Dr. Wade Nobles he he explains this very well but it's how we've been given a predetermined set of concepts and and definitions to make sense of our reality. Yes. But that's not innately inherently who we are and so it limits us like we don't have words necessarily right now to express the fullness of our of our reality and our expression and so I think it's I believe in making up words I believe in radical imagination and the meditation is important because you might get visions you might get thoughts you might get things will come up and you're like where that come from just write it down draw it out because we need that you know as we move into this new world that we're building but in terms of decolonization it is about understanding the indoctrination it's about understanding the assimilation that you've might have gone under it understands the parts of yourself like you mentioned that we've abandoned or have given up or have never ever known right so we're recovering a lot of ourselves as well but it is a matter of like okay if we know that certain religion systems or we know that certain processes of society were given to us as a form of domination imperialism and corruption and deception and all these types of things why am I still doing this why am I still participating proud all of it all of it and that's the I think that's where we're at right now because we say it's f that but then we want that we want it we want it we want to be in that spot you know and so I think we have to really be honest with ourselves about what it is that we're doing here and what it looks like for us so that we can be decolonial right in our approaches um so yeah decolonizing the mind is important it's about understanding reality for yourself so ontology interrogating what you've understood around your nature of reality and epistemology understanding and interrogating what you've been taught to know why you know it who said it was valid and all these types why do you believe it you know and then it's also axiology which is our value system as well so interrogating your values and where do those things come from um and then I think when it comes to decolonizing mental health I briefly mentioned abc the association of black psychologists they broke off from the American Psychological Association APA in protest and so it's about studying those folks yeah it's about really understanding okay what have they tried we know the history of psychology is terrible they were doing terrible experiments right it's it's ridiculous and so moving away from those types of things and understanding what health really is and we know that western society hasn't always studied health they don't really have the capacity to understand health especially for black people right so it is about looking into our communities and like you mentioned before we're scared to leave the group because we're like oh I'm leaving my people but those ain't your people that's why you feel like that right right and so your new people are gonna find you and that's where I am I'm and when you feel like you're in that space when you're leaving your old life and moving to the new one and it's that when you're in the fire it's tough but you have to know what's on the other side it's so tough but you're right and you said something about radical imagination that stuck with me because I think it's so important that we you know decolonize the mind decolonize these approaches to mental health and therapy and at the same time like this idea of like spend more time in play spend more time in imagination spend more time dreaming and then you you kind of come to this understanding that like I don't even know what I I don't even know what I'm capable of dreaming like when I think of what a decolonized world would look like and what you know black liberation looks like I don't even know what I don't know you know like the the what that could look like is currently beyond the realm of of my imagining but if we spend time being like deliberate about that like let's tap into the creative let's tap into what feels you know natural and let's go for you know the children dream naturally children come up with worlds and big stories and when they don't know how something works they just make it up and you know a lot of the times it's ridiculous and funny and you know I think that it's so important that we spend more time doing that and and just yeah it's necessary read you gotta read yeah yeah yeah you really do it's the more words you know the more you can see but it's also like you mentioned with this this imagination piece one like you said I don't even know what I can create and so me after going through all of this schooling and then finally being like okay I'm done right like I can do me yeah it's like what do I want to do like what do I want to create like I now I don't have a syllabus I don't have directions instructions I don't have oh yeah credits I don't have like I can make what I want to yes and that's tough you know and it's like just because I'm like guys remember I went through the conditioning too so it's like I graduated everyone's so excited for me people online that I don't know where you at and it's like I gotta I gotta process like I'm processing but I'm doing the work and it's it's great um but it's it's tough you know it's really really tough and reminding yourself that you don't need permission you really do when you're in that system of indoctrination and control you're always having to ask or get permission or they have to sign off on something or no you're not allowed to do that and so getting out of that and knowing no I am the researcher I am the expert but beyond that I'm me right and I get to make decisions for my life and you can't stop me from creating and thinking and dreaming and feeling yeah exactly and so a part of a lot of the work that I've been doing is creating spaces for us to do this work and one of those spaces is called the lab and it's a digital think tank and it's a third space for black women and we've been operating I started it during my during my doctor's yeah I started it during my doctorate program okay because my committee was like you're gonna need a peer support group and I was like peer support group what is that where do I find that and so I just hopped on TikTok and said hey y'all I'm starting a peer support group and literally 200 women signed up immediately so then I'm like hitting up I'm like hey guys I think I'm gonna need some help like we're gonna need to figure this out yeah and so now we've had over 800 women signed up across three continents and we just got into discord which I'm loving but yeah it's super fun super cool and yeah we have a spiritual community as well that's co-ed but for the lab it's been really great we've been presenting at conferences together we're writing on what it means to be a black woman what it means to belong motivation but more importantly I think it's about building infrastructure and not having to rely on these oppressive systems understanding 600,000 black women just got laid off what are we building for ourselves we're knowledgeable we're talented we're ambitious you know we we are under resourced you know as a collective but what does it look like to pull our resources together so when you see the AKAs you see whoever going to the city and dropping million billion trillion dollars all I can think is what would that look like if we did you feel me and that's okay but I think it's a matter of understanding our infrastructure and understanding what we have the capacity to do and to build and that's what I'm on that's all I'm on sovereignty self determination and I'm with whoever with that yeah well the K's gonna be on your head but I feel you I do feel you I do so okay so you you talked we've talked a lot about like individualism and how it really does not serve black people and you know getting back to a more collectivist way of thinking feeling doing being I want to talk about the difference between community and systemic change and I also want to talk about the people who feel like I'm always the community I'm always the help I'm always the support like I'm always that one that everybody else is supposed to be able to lean on and I don't feel like I get that in return so it's like two different sort of questions I have about that and so maybe we can just start with I'm gonna start community yes the difference between like all of this coming together what what do we need to change within our community versus like what needs to be changed to me it's about how do we define community well yeah what I actually can start right there I'm like we say we want community we need community we but it's like when we get community what we do like it's just I'm not understanding and if we're talking specifically about black women we say sis sister but we're not really sisterly and it's just I think we need to define what community is and then understand the function purpose of community and then how we mobilize that how we operationalize that how we organize that right so community is about support it is about intergenerational support so it is about the mothers the fathers the children the grandparents the great-grands it's about everybody and it's about understanding like we said your role what is your purpose what are you great at what are you good at and then it's about identifying the needs where do we need to pick up where do we need help and I think to kind of go into your next question it is a matter of like when you are that person it's for me I don't it's hard I don't really know how to ask for help because sometimes you don't really know you know you need help but you don't really know what you need exactly and then sometimes it feels like more work trying to tell people how to help and then it's like I'll just do it so I'm trying to figure that out in terms of like leadership and what they call delegating but what it really looks like to have a community have a team have a functioning network that's working towards a goal and an aim right and so you also mentioned systemic yeah well I was wondering like where how do we look at like individually I mean like well so part of the question was like where's the difference between like how maybe the community needs to change or the community's you know version of self care or healing versus like what needs to be changed systemically but yeah maybe that question is better like are we trying to individually heal these problems that are community issues or systemic issues yeah I think that's a part of it I think a part of it is we are trying to individualize systemic problems right we're trying to look at individuals when it's like no there are larger forces larger structures larger systems that are impacting this behavior but then I will say it comes back to knowledge of self and if we understand this journey of self actualization if everyone's doing their part and doing their work and solving their problems and working through the things that they need to work through we're going to be better individuals so that we can be better community members and so it does require the self but everybody not doing that yeah so then that becomes we gotta hold hands with the people who are right while we're still trying to teach learn engage no no no but it's a matter of like understanding what organization looks like and everyone has a role right and also we have this phrase everybody can't go which I agree with but I also understand you don't need everybody right if you look at a cell the powerhouse of the cell is the nucleus okay word it's very you know it's tight it's small and when you think about education when you think about media a small group of people created a curriculum they created a thing and then it got dispersed right and so even if we're thinking about media it's or how we're translating or how we're transmitting like knowledge and information yeah it's it don't take much with the masses either but I think it has to be we have to be clear we have to be intentional and we have to be strong in our foundation of what we're actually what is the purpose because for some people it's dying and go in heaven and me and their maker mm-hmm for others it's you know so we have to understand what are we doing here and what is that collective vision and that comes back to that imagination and the dreaming but it is tapping into self to understand likely a Sankofa yeah you know but understanding where we're going yeah yes and and understanding that you are going to have to just yes I'm gonna go metaphysical again because it is a matter of like I am my people and my people are me right very little or literal in terms of our communalism but also very literal in terms of like we are really this is a collective consciousness we are interconnected you are you are my reflect like that is very real and literal you know and so I think understanding it in that way helps us and that's when you start to see yourself and everybody's right to see God and everybody and you you treat people differently you act differently and that's why I'm so big on knowledge of self and this the spiritual work because I know how transformative it is it's a renewal of the mind right it's a renewal of the heart the soul and it just you're it's different right you got that God in you yeah different and I think that's that's really important for me and I think that's gonna help us understand then how to come together right but we have yeah well it's easy for me to say that or believe that about you because you're so smart you know talking about as opposed to like some man online who doesn't think women should be educated or have jobs and it's like I'm supposed to see the God in this nigga I'm supposed to feel like me you the same star dust or whatever but I do feel you and and that is something that grad school gave me where you really you understand that everybody went through something everybody has been through something or is currently going through something people are a lot more traumatized than they know yeah and so it does give a certain grace and understanding yeah and I'm always like the general population they just need a little african-centered work you know you know they they didn't understand the woman you know and what the woman is is they don't value her so we have to it's education but we are you brother yeah you are us you are us you are us and all of this comes from us how dare you disrespect me I am you and I'm your mom yeah and I'm your dad mommy doctor Taylor Cummings thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and wisdom on Christmas couch this was everything please since since the PhD is under embargo because I know the girl he's just tried to google it they think they mean I'm like now we reading this please tell the people where they can find you and engage in your work absolutely I am on Instagram at the self-love doc I'm also on tick-tock at the self-love doc love that go to my website the self-love doc calm and please reach out you can go to we are the lab Co for our think tank for black women and also if you're interested in our soul Sunday community space on discord which is all about decolonizing coming into your spiritual knowledge and growth reach out and we'll get you connected love this when you start your compound in Puerto Rico or something I'm gonna come living and eat the fruit remember thank you again to dr. Taylor Cummings for being on Christmas couch this week and thank you so much for tuning in you can find us online at Christmas couch our website is Christmas couch calm all right we'll see y'all next week