Session 38: Calling Crissle

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The travel and plans are slowing down as we ease into the back half of this year, but my obligation to take care of myself definitely isn't, and it's really important for me to get back into eating real, full meals on a regular basis, but I also need some convenience to help me fit that into my current lifestyle, and that's why I love Factor. They make chef-crafted, dietician-designed, ready-to-eat meals so you don't have to choose between real food, and convenience. Factor meals are ready in just two minutes. They require no prep, no cleanup. These are all the words your girl loves to hear. So even on the days when my schedule is completely out of control, I can still eat well. Every week, you'll find over 100 nutrient-dense menu items to choose from, plus add-ons that you'll love, like pumpkin-flavored cheesecakes and protein shakes. I have been a Factor customer for years, baby, even before they started running ads on my shows, because you just cannot beat dinner ready in two minutes. The shredded chicken taco bowl is a personal favorite. Sometimes I will get more than one of those in the same week. That's how much I love it. And when I'm feeling a little fancy, that filet mignon with the cream spinach and the broccoli, oh, girl, it's a hit that just won't quit. But no matter your taste or diet, Factor has options for you. So let's eat real. Head to factormeals.com slash couch50off and use code COUCH50OFF to get 50% off and one free breakfast item per box for one year while supplies last until 10-31-2026. That's code COUCH50OFF at factormeals.com, COUCH50OFF at factormeals.com. See website for more details. Hi, and welcome to Crystal's Couch, the show where I answer your questions for advice and talk to the most interesting people in the world. Today, I am so excited to be back in the lab with the live callers. Yes, one of my favorite things to do on this show is chat live with some of you listeners. So I'm very excited. I think we got a great lineup for today. So without further ado, who's up first? Hey, Crystal. I'm Cameron. Hi, Cameron. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm doing good, baby. What's going on? Oh, my God. Okay. So I'm a gay man in my late 30s, and I'm trying to figure out whether it's time to let go of a 20-year friendship. Okay. A few weeks ago, we were sitting out by the pool just having drinks when she told me she believes that being gay is a sin. She said she still loves me, but doesn't agree with my quote-unquote lifestyle and doesn't believe that people are born gay. Then she compared my being gay to a mutual friend who keeps going back to an unhealthy relationship saying that you can love someone while still disagreeing with their choices. But here's the problem. I don't experience my sexuality as a choice. Right. So, like, it felt like she was comparing who I am to, like, a harmful decision. It didn't feel like a difference of opinion. It felt like a rejection of a core part of who I am. Right. And, like, this isn't some random person. This is someone I've loved for 20 years. We've grown up together, traveled together, celebrated milestones. I've known her since we were 17. I was at her wedding just this year. And I always believe, like, she fully accepted me. So now I'm just left wondering, like, was I ever truly accepted or just tolerated? Yeah. Oh, my God. So y'all met when you were 17. Did y'all meet in high school or at church? We met through a mutual friend. I was always two years older. Okay. But, yeah, she was in. 10th grade when we met. Got it. And so has she always known you to be a gay man? I've been gay since she's always known. Okay. It's never a secret. Got it, got it, got it. And does she have this same sort of religious kind of strict mentality about other things? Or is it just about gay people where she's like, mm, this is where I draw the line? She seems to pick and choose, like, what she wants to. Like, she's always been, like, so hot and cold with her religion so sometimes she'd go on spurts when, like, she wasn't really about it. And then she, like, takes a pause and then goes deep into it. So right now she's back in her deep, deep mode into it. Oh, my God. It seems to be just a gay thing because, like, she can have free sex and, like. Mm. She's out here having sex before marriage and, like, just doing all these other things. But when it comes to gayness, it seems to be, like, I don't understand why that's her big problem. Like, why that's her non-negotiable. Right. And so. And so did you all. I understand why you wouldn't because this is uncomfortable, but did you try to talk to her more about, like, these beliefs and what they're really rooted in? Because when you said she compared it to, like, a friend who keeps going back to a toxic relationship, that made me think that maybe she doesn't actually have a real or correct understanding of sexuality or how it works. She fully believes that. She's like, well, maybe you were influenced. And I was like, influenced? By what? Both of my brothers are straight. And if I was influenced to be gay, wouldn't I. I mean, if I was influenced, wouldn't I be more likely to be straight? Because there's more straight influences than there are gay influences. So I don't understand what she's talking about. I'm just, like, I expected more from my friend, and I'm so confused. Right. Did she have a response to that? Because that's an excellent point. Oh, we were drinking, and she was just like, oh, no. I just think you're choosing that way. And then her friend that we met together was, like, co-signing. Because I guess she's dabbled with girls. And she's like, yeah, I think you're sinning. I think you're choosing to be that way. Oh, God. Okay, first of all, a straight bitch who has kissed a couple of girls, you know, when she was drunk in the club or whatever, can't tell me nothing about who I am. Like, pipe down, miss girl. But, wow, so you were, y'all were drinking. So it sounds like it was probably more of a casual sort of environment anyway. And then all of a sudden, these two people you've been friends with for years are like, oh, yeah, by the way, I think who you are as a person, is flawed and you're doomed to spend the rest of eternity in hell. And I don't even, like, that means nothing to me because I'm not religious. But it's just, like, I know what it means to her. Right. And I'm like, the fact that I'm your friend and this is how you feel, I don't even know how to carry on with this friendship like this. Like, unless you, like, change your mind, how can we be friends? Right. And, I mean, the whole unless you change your mind, we can't be friends. I completely agree. But how likely do you think it is that she will come around on this issue? I don't know. Yeah. I really don't know. I feel like she needs to go on, like, a spiritual journey and, like, go to Bali, go on some spiritual journey and, like, really get it together because she seems to be conflicted about it a lot. Right. So ordinarily, I would just say, okay, fuck this girl, block her, who cares? But y'all have been friends for so long, it sounds like it really hurts. It hurts you to be in this position in the first place. This was my girl. Right. Like, I thought we saw, I thought, like, we were there with each other. Like, and to see that she feels this way, I'm like, where is this coming from? Like, I've never known you to be, not the family I choose for myself. Right. I've never known, I've never known I would pick some, I would be friends with somebody who has these type of opinions. Right. I'm, like, so baffled. Like, do I not know you? Yeah. This is so difficult. This is so disorienting. It throws you off entirely, because it's like, bitch, we have been friends for 20 years. She's been in the gay clubs doing, like, what the hell? Come on, come on, come on. That's the sort of thing where it's like, I, it throws you off so much. And I'm putting myself in your shoes right now and trying to think of how I would feel if one of my oldest friends that I've known since we were high school age was like, oh, yeah, by the way. I feel this way about you. And I guess I always have. But now I'm just kind of, like, making it clear that who you are as a person isn't good enough. That is so devastating. Like, we can know one thing, you know, with our brains. We can know rationally or logically, like, this person's full of shit and their opinion about this doesn't matter. They're clearly ignorant about sexuality and how it's developed, how it works. But that doesn't take away the pain that we feel in our hearts. Having been connected to somebody for so long, we've shared so much. We've been vulnerable. Like, 20 years is nothing to sneeze at. So, oh, do you feel like sitting down and having, like, a big capital C conversation about this? I don't even know, like, like, she stood on what she said. I don't even know, like, how a conversation would change. Would it just be like an ending conversation? Like, you know what? This is how you feel. I don't see how this friendship can last anymore. Like, I don't know. I don't know what the comments, how the conversation would go. Right. Well, I don't think that it necessarily needs to be like, this is the end of our friendship. But it also doesn't have to be like a, here is a lecture on homosexuality and, like, why you're wrong and how homosexuality appears across species and all of this other stuff. And, you know, gay people have been around since forever. You don't have to. to go into all that either because it doesn't frankly it doesn't sound like she's even really open to hearing it it sounds like you know she stood 10 toes down on what she said and this is her belief and a lot of people will just back that up with well that's my religion or that's my faith and they'll end it at that because when you believe in something based purely off faith you don't have to investigate it any further than that faith doesn't require science or facts or research or you know anything like that it's it's pure vibes and so you can pick it up and put it down however you want to um so I wouldn't even recommend you go through all of that sort of turmoil I might mention it briefly like by the way you're wrong about that but I'm not trying to convince you or change your mind if anything I would sit her down and say you know we've been friends for 20 years and I don't know that I can continue being your friend knowing that you feel this way about me I was so hurt when you said that you feel like my existence and my personhood is a sin like you're not talking about a choice that I made because I did not say hey why don't I go out here and be gay gay isn't a choice gay is feelings and you can never ever act on the feelings and still be gay so what are you saying here that I should either deny my sexuality deny who I am not embrace the complete fullness of my existence on this plane and just pretend that I'm not gay you want me to do that or or you want me to to be out here with women lying to myself and to them like what do you want me to what's what do you think is is really going on here and what would be the solution God is gonna love me if I decide to be gay or if I decide to be gay I'm gonna love me if I decide to be gay I'm gonna love me if I decide to lie about who I am is that is that what you're saying like are you being for real right now are you going to hell because you had sex outside of marriage and you smoke and you drink and you blah blah blah whatever else like how is it that this applies to me and not to you or any of the people you know who have also done things that are considered to be sins so I I think if I were to have the conversation I would focus on like not even come to a resolution but just expressing to a friend you really really hurt me and seeing how she responds to that because I think a good friend will want to know when they've hurt your feelings um and would want to know that it is affecting you this deeply and so maybe by having the conversation that will cause her to really reflect and be like wow I've been judgmental I've kind of been an asshole I've been you know unfair to this person and I've been projecting you know all of my religious stuff onto him as if there's something wrong with him like maybe that will kind of send her in that direction or maybe she's gonna triple down on it and be like well God said and the Bible said and pastor said so I mean I still love you you still my friend you know love the sin hate or love the sinner hate the sin child they love that line um you know something trite like that but for me it would just be about expressing the feelings and how she responds because if you're not remorseful if you're not trying to like come to an understanding or come to a place where you no longer believe that about me then why would I even want to be close with you right because I'm like she can be remorseful and all that but like can a friendship survive when one person believes a core part of the other person's identity is morally wrong you know not on a deep level no you can be superficial surface level friends high and bad type friends but you can't have true intimacy and vulnerability with another person when you know that they believe something like that about you especially if you're not willing to then cover up or lie to yourself about who you are like you don't feel any shame about who you are and that's really I think what's saving you here is that you know enough and you are secure enough in yourself to say oh she's wrong she's fucked up this is not actually about me this is about her but no I don't think you can be true friends with somebody who has that sort of attitude about gay people when you are an out and proud gay person so the friendship is dead well I mean it does sound like it it because you know what and here is the real gag about it all what's really wild about it is that even if she does come back and say I was really tripping like of course I don't think like you're a sinner because of who you are like obviously that was so ignorant and I can't believe I said that I'm so sorry like even if she says the most perfect thing it's not going to take away the fact that she said the other thing right it could only lay the pavement for the possibility of y'all repairing the friendship and getting back to where you used to be but it does not take away what she said before so it is very possible that the friendship has been fractured in a way that it cannot be repaired based off of this statement and and for good reason yeah yeah that's kind of the way I was leaning just needed some other opinions yeah I mean this is it's really inexcusable like you can have anybody this goes for anybody they can have their friends and they can have their friends and they can have their friends and they have their faith they can have their religious beliefs or whatever other kind of beliefs but you don't get to be in community with me you don't get to have access to me if you are going to say something like my existence is a sin or who I am as a person is flawed and wrong at that point you need to take it up with God because again I didn't make me gay I'm just here girl like I'm just having the experience I didn't I didn't decide that for me so yeah you you can have your beliefs but you need to take them away from me with all that nonsense right not the family you choose for yourself not the family you choose right it's nothing you can do about blood but I mean but even blood don't have to be in your life you just can't change the fact that they blood I'm sorry though that's so hard and I would I want to make sure that we take the the space to really acknowledge how painful this is to be in this position with somebody that you thought was a true friend and thought that for years yeah because this is really it's fucked up baby I'm sorry yeah all right well thank you so much Crystal I really appreciate you you're welcome Cameron thank you so much for calling into the show take care bye yeah y'all the thing about um the homophobia and stuff like that again it's just not something I play with you can think whatever you want to but over here with your feelings that aren't based in facts or anything that can be backed up and you just want to be hateful there's no space for that in a real friendship so sucks but sometimes that's how it is this episode of chris's couch is brought to you by better help if you go wake up tomorrow and automatically be better at one thing what would that one thing be okay now it can be something serious or something fun and silly for me i would be so good at basketball that the wmba would draft me right now you know never mind the fact that i'm five three and i was born in the 1900s they're like wow it's jackie young all over again we need her on our team okay we're deep in the wmba season right now and i'm having so much fun at the games and watching with friends things like that so that was just you know like a fun little thing that i'm having so much fun at the games and watching with friends things like that so i would love to do if i could but really better is a feeling and that feeling is defined by you and for better help it's a better help therapist who really gets you it's a focus on global emotional well-being with thousands of therapists and millions of members in over 100 countries what it really is is progress so sign up and get 10 off today at betterhelp.com that's betterhelp.com slash c-r-i-s-s-l-e hey y'all i don't know about you but your girl was outside this summer okay the travel implants are slowing down as we ease into the back half of this year but my obligation to take care of myself definitely isn't and it's really important for me to get back into eating real full meals on a regular basis but i also need some convenience to help me fit that into my current lifestyle and that's why i love factor they make chef crafted dietitian designed ready to eat meals so you don't have to choose between the two of them and i'm going to show you how to do that in just a moment real food and convenience factor meals are ready in just two minutes they require no prep no cleanup these are all the words your girl loves to hear so even on the days when my schedule is completely out of control i can still eat well every week you'll find over 100 nutrient dense menu items to choose from plus add-ons that you'll love like pumpkin flavored cheesecakes and protein shakes i have been a factor customer for years baby even before they started running ads on my shows because you just cannot beat dinner ready in two minutes the shredded chicken taco bowl is a personal favorite sometimes i will get more than one of those in the same week that's how much i love it when i'm feeling a little fancy that filet mignon with the cream spinach and the broccoli girl it's a hit that just won't quit but no matter your taste or diet factor has options for you so let's eat real head to factor meals.com slash couch 50 off and use code couch 50 off to get 50 off and one free breakfast item per box for one year while supplies last until 10 31 20 26 that's code couch 50 off at factor meals.com couch 50 off at factor meals.com see website for more details all right who is up next hi hi how are you i'm good how are you doing i'm good what's your name max lex uh max max hey max so what's going on um so i've been with my partner for four years and i'm struggling to move forward after a conflict that's permanently changed my relationship with my family but some of my family last year a few family members became convinced that something inappropriate was happening you between my partner and one of our close friends even though i trust them both and nothing was actually going on uh my anxiety was not was at its all-time worst and i couldn't keep everything from my partner because doing so felt like a lie and i was on the verge of a panic attack when i told him what was being said i tried to get everyone together to clear the air my family felt betrayed that i said anything at all um instead of trying to clear the air the conversation turned to listing off everything i had done wrong and my family's opinions on our relationship and our friend before and during the conversation i apologized um and how i could have done things better when i shared that the situation had become so overwhelming that it was causing me to have panic attacks my mental health was completely dismissed and that hurt deeply um through therapy i have realized i've spent years carrying my family's emotional burdens and trying to fix everyone's problems now my therapist is encouraging me to take a step back but i'm struggling because i love my family i don't want to lose those relationships um so my question is how do you maintain healthy boundaries without feeling like you're giving up on the people you love and how do you accept that some family relationships may never fully resolve or heal yeah well those questions really go together um let's let's back up a little bit and let's talk back up a little bit and go to the situation with your boyfriend and your your partner and your friend why is there did your family have like a good reason to think something was going on did they see something suspicious or was it just like oh well we had a feeling it was messed up not all of them so not all of them like saw or knew everything until like they all connected the doctor got you there but so um both of us believe that men and women should have platonic friendships like they are healthy to have and allow each person to see them beyond just being the opposite sex so like that's a big cornerstone of our it's always been a cornerstone relationship so while they were visiting they went and did an activity together without me i knew about it i was fine with it i had no issues with it okay um my family some people in my family felt like that was weird okay yeah i mean was it like a romantic boat ride around a canal or no okay okay so they hung out like friends yes like friends like they literally went i think bowling okay so family was tripping i think it was like bowling or like laser tag or something okay okay it was like she confides in him about her like life family relationship she does not have any siblings that she's close with so she is like a sibling to her and likewise she also confides in me i was just like you know what y'all can go have brother sister time our other friend is here me and them will go have our time together because we rarely all get to have like one-on-one time gotcha individually with the other person okay so they hung out as friends your family members saw this and were like i don't know about it kind of got together um and pieced some some things together and then came to you with it yes um there was also because they both are um actors so they had just gotten a script to like to do some voice acting for and um he the recording equipment at the time was in our bedroom i know that this everyone knows this there were two family members also in the house along with our other friend they went to the room to record the audio okay and that is also i guess like another thing they thought was weird or inappropriate got you okay so these two incidents together your family was like let's come to max and tell her what's going on did they think you weren't going to talk to your partner about it though like what were you supposed to do with that information i one of them simply just said like you don't know her intentions with him you don't know her intentions with him like over and over again i was like she's dating his other best friend like like i know her intentions but they're like well you don't have to do anything with this you could just like you could just watch that was oh okay yeah and then but it's like but you told me this thing about my partner so what in this situation if it was different if i chose to confront him about it like i feel like the conflict then the outcome might have been different got it if i went with him in a more aggressive way confronting like hey my family's seeing this and this isn't okay or something like that then i feel like then they might have been okay with that i see interesting so hmm so they kind of wanted you to just take this information sit on it and keep your eye on the two of them and yeah and and just watch out for anything funny happening and so they were angry at you for talking to your boyfriend about their concerns and saying that they had seen these things okay how did the conversation go with your with your partner when you talked to him about it he was very patient and understanding he could see that like at the time when i brought it to him i was very distressed um he definitely like calmly explained that like i'm here for you i've moved here for you i i don't want people to like have these assumptions about our relationship me or like our friend for that matter but also he was also genuinely hurt because he had felt he had made connections with my family right oh yes okay so is your family i know your family's upset at the way you handled it how are they showing that they're upset with you are they leaving you out of stuff so not leaving me out of stuff um it it just feels weird like when we go to family events or like outings it feels like there's just this wall up i not necessarily with me specifically like those family members will talk to me and they'll sometimes greet him but like it's it feels like there's this looming shroud got you that isn't being addressed or hasn't fully been addressed since that big meeting right is that something that you would want to do kind of set up something with your family without your boyfriend being there and be like okay the vibe is off something's wrong or like i like let's not let's just address what's going on here because we all know that things are not normal they're not the way they used to be is that a conversation you would want to have with your family or is that a conversation you would want to have with your family with them i feel like i tried to do that it just blew up in my face yeah um and i think that's why i'm just so apprehensive to trying again right um especially because i feel like i don't want to i don't want it to be about how like well you betrayed us or we were trying to look out for you and i've acknowledged i've already acknowledged what i could have done better and i've acknowledged that i understand that everyone was looking out for my best interest right it feels like they're not acknowledging that they misjudged two people or misjudged the situations right like i would think everybody would just be happy that you don't see anything to be alarmed about here and there were perfectly reasonable explanations for what they saw but instead do you get the feeling that they're like they're holding it against you that you said something to your partner i think that yeah yeah okay thing and saying something to them about it and him about it is probably the bigger thing of just like oh you should have just kept that between us got it okay so talk to me a little bit more about the anxiety and panic attacks how did that start up um i've always had like some form of anxiety i think i've been able to just like cope with it um the panic attacks i don't think i realized they were panic attacks until it got as bad really they would manifest as like me freezing and just like laying in bed and um not being able like as much as i would want to will myself to move and go do what i needed to do i would just want to lay and stay in the bed right um and it was different from like feeling just depressed it was just like feeling like this aching anxiousness like eating like something was tied around my chest and just squeezing tighter oh yeah um and then i was like i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know and then it kind of gradually got worse to where like i was hyperventilating a lot it got so bad i can laugh about it now it got so bad that my ribs were hurting oh no because i found that that can sometimes be a side effect from like having panic attacks so that's how frequently i was having them uh i think at its worst i was having them four times a week oh my goodness yeah when so this happened how long long ago um last year last year okay yes last year i am medicated now though so you're medicated now okay okay because that was going to be my next question are you talking to a doctor about it okay but the panic you were having panic attacks up to four times a week because of this situation and the dynamic with your family yes so it's been however many months or a year and they're still feeling away about it yeah okay certain people are certain i will say other people just kind of like want the resolution to be there and want everyone to be happy but that just feels like okay i don't think we should sweep things under a rug i'd love to have a new normal yeah but i i understand we can't get to a new normal unless both sides are willing to like come together and really have that conversation right right so the the few people that i've been talking to are the people that i've been talking to for a long time and i've been talking to them for a long time and i've been talking to them for a long time and i've been talking to them for a long people that you think are still kind of holding on to it would you be interested in having like a separate sort of meeting with just you and them how do you think that would go i think i'm more than open to have those conversations with them but i need to know that they want to have it like i feel like when i've tried or i've like i've tried to have it i feel like i don't have the confidence to do it and i feel like i don't have the confidence to do it and i don't have the confidence to do it and i feel like i don't have the confidence to do it and i don't have the confidence to do it and i feel like i don't have the confidence to do it and i feel like i don't have the confidence to do it i think it's very rational actually i if i came to somebody and and said something as serious as i think your partner might be stepping out on you with your friend there is no part of me that thinks that they would not have then a conversation with their partner about that like that seems very illogical and i mean maybe even if they weren't willing to take accountability and be like oh okay i was wrong you would think they would at least let it go like i came to you with this concern turns out that the concern was baseless and so i'm letting it go you know i told you because you're my relative i care a lot about you glad that it turned out to be nothing and i'm i'm more than willing to drop it like i so i i'm sensing that there's some there's some weirdness from some members of your family about like maybe what your response is to what you're saying and so i'm letting it go and i'm letting it go i'm letting it go responsibility is or uh your obligation maybe maybe there's even this idea of like disloyalty that you chose your partner over them something like that i agree that i'm i would probably only be open to having the conversation if i knew that they were also open to hearing it but if i've tried to talk to you and you've kind of just it's like you know there's there's a wall up between us and we both know it and we can feel it and we can feel it and we can feel it and we can feel it and see it and you're not open to me then why would i continue to put forth that sort of this effort so it sounds like that's where you are now um okay so i think the first question you asked me had something to do with boundaries yeah like how do you maintain healthy boundaries without feeling like you're giving up on people you love well that really depends on the boundary because sometimes the boundary is is saying i'm giving up on you but not saying i'm throwing you away it's saying that i am letting go of the idea that our relationship is going to be it's going to look a certain way and i'm accepting that it's going to look this way instead like that's something that i had to do with my mother coming to it and it's less about boundaries and more about a personal understanding for me anyway where it was like we already you know we're not the we've never been the call and talk to my mom every day and text my mama all day every day type like we've never been that but it's more like coming to a personal understanding of like this is who you are you are set in your ways not stuck in them you can get out of it but you're not for whatever reason um and so i can either cut you off completely or accept you as you are and modify my expectations for you and for what a relationship between the two of us will look like it really again it depends on the boundary you want to set and the person you want to set it with but it sounds like maybe you just need to have a little bit of a a reframe of how you're looking at it like it doesn't have to be you know let's say your aunt is the main one you know still instigating or keeping up this sort of weird vibe it can be all right auntie i accept that you don't like it i accept that you think that you know i'm a disloyal niece for talking to my partner about cheating allegations that came from the family but you know i'm i'm not gonna stop coming around you know i'm not gonna skip christmas because you feel this way i'm not gonna miss out on all the other family events because you feel this way i'm gonna just keep you at arm's length until you decide that this is something that you are ready to have a conversation about you're ready to act like an adult about it but i can't force it right right yeah and what was the what was the other question um and how do you accept that some family relationships may never fully heal or resolve oh yes well that kind of ties into what i was just saying about the boundaries where it's it's more about really evaluating what the person is capable of giving you like this sounds like the sort of thing that ideally we could wrap up in an afternoon like i i'm really struggling to see how your family members are still holding on to these feelings a year later like that it's it's really kind of blowing my mind that they are this stuck in it because it doesn't seem to me to be that big of a deal like if anything i would have said to myself okay next time you know i'm not gonna come to max unless i know for sure you know i saw her man kissing somebody else in the hallway you know otherwise i'm just not gonna come to max about you know like something like that but why are y'all so dead set on holding on to it i think if i were in your shoes i would try to set up a meeting you know something private in person with if if possible um with the people who are having these concerns or you know who are still in their feelings about this and if we if we have a conversation and you're still like just 10 toes down on me getting on your nerves because i talked to my partner about it then at that point i just gotta let you have it okay auntie okay cousin okay daddy uh you know i'll see y'all at labor day or whatever like i'll see y'all for big mama birthday party i i can't put so much effort and thought into this to the point where it is making you sick it's causing you real health problems you got to go see a doctor and get medicated because of the anxiety you're having around this conflict with your family like come on now y'all come on let's be for real do they know that that it's causing you to have panic attacks i after when i tried to say that it got so overwhelming that i was on the verge of having a panic attack and it kind of was just dismissed oh right you did say that you did yeah i just the only person that in my family that knows i am well my both my parents know that i'm medicated now gotcha my yeah my mom and my dad they know that i am medicated and they know that i am medicated and they know that i am medicated um have been medicated for the last few months i feel a lot better yeah yeah i would say i would i feel like my fear of getting on medication for years was just really like oh my god what if it changes me completely but i'm like if i was medicated like this last year i think everything would have just like okay cool whatever yeah y'all can think what you want yeah i'm not worried about it yep yep i mean medication can really be a great thing it really really can uh and it exists for a and i'm so happy that you got over whatever internal doubts you had about trying it out and i'm glad it worked for you um but yeah that i probably to be completely honest i probably wouldn't even bring that up to the family members because it doesn't sound like it really matters to them anyway but like this is this is an absurd thing to hold over somebody's head for this amount of time especially for it to turn out to be a complete nothing of an issue like it just sounds like some people in your family maybe need to grow up or get over themselves like it's not actually about you sweetie so i would try to have the conversation but if they still acting like this girl what else are you supposed to do like no they are wearing you out no no no no i appreciate that i just i i really love the work that i've been able to do with my therapist yes and then like also getting to my psychologist like that's hope but i think it was like i was like i was like i was like i was like i was like i was like i was like i was like i was like oh yeah inspired me to reach out to you for the advice because I was like I know what I have to do I think I just still feel guilty sometimes yeah well and if your family's anything like mine then you were definitely raised with a us against them kind of mentality like this family got to be that fist type people and you know you don't never really go against the family never violate the I get all that. I do. My family, we, my cousin's husband called us a cult. He was like, y'all niggas be doing the absolute most child. You can't say nothing to us about us. And to a certain degree, that's a great thing. But sometimes we take it a little too far. We hold on to stuff way longer than it needs to be held on to. Is it worth losing your niece, cousin, sister, daughter, whoever behind this? No, absolutely not. So like, but that's on them to let it go. All you can do is be open to having the conversation when they're ready to really have, you know, an honest dialogue about it. Other than that, girl, keep taking your meds, keep seeing your therapist. And yeah, sometimes you just gotta, I don't want to minimize how hard it is to accept these things, because it took me literal years. You know, it took years. To accept the reality of things and to stop wishing that it could be different or hoping or, you know, just that little shred of maybe one day, like it's not that that possibility ever stops existing. It's that you stop holding on to it. You stop basing your emotions and your well-being around that possibility. And you start working with what is actually right in front of you right now. Yeah. Yeah. So, all right, Max, anything else? No, just thank you for taking the time. Of course. I really, really appreciate you, and you are doing amazing work. Thank you so much. Oh, that means a lot. I, you know, that is, that is exactly why I started the show. So thank you for that. I appreciate it. No problem. Take care. Bye. Oh, you guys, families are so tricky. But sometimes Annie and grandma and uncle and them, they be doing the most and whirling. And we know that. Sometimes you just got to let them have their feelings. And I'll be over here when you're ready to step up out of them. 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All right, y'all, I think we have time for one more. Who's up next? Hi, this is Marlee. How are you? Hi, I'm good. Thank you. How are you? I'm doing good. Thank you for your time, Crystal. I'm not going to overly stand, but just know I'm a years and years and years long fan. And I would love to give you your flowers. If I can give you some of the herbal ones, I would. But let me give you your black girl. I would love to give you my flowers and tell you that I really appreciate you throughout the years, seriously. Thank you so much. That means a lot. I really, really appreciate it. Yes, of course. What's going on with you, Marlee? All right, so let me get into it. So I am a mother of a teenager. So that in itself, in this day and time, is a lot. But, um. I'm a single mom in Phoenix with a 17-year-old daughter. And for, I'd say, more than a year now, closer to two, we've been searching for a therapist who truly feels like the right fit for her. And she attends a predominantly white Catholic school in Phoenix, Arizona. And she shows up every single day as her full, authentic self. A black girl with locks, a proud member of the Beehive, refusing to conform to the Swifty. I'm someone who refuses to shrink or reshape who she is just to belong. And I'll be honest, I know I've played a role in why she needs support in the first place. Like any parent, I've made mistakes, and there are things that she's had to carry that I wish I could take back. I, myself, have been in therapy and blessed enough to have found an amazing therapist for over a year now. And I appreciate, again, you for constantly encouraging us to get into therapy. Um. But every time. Every time she begins to open up to a therapist, something goes wrong. At one practice, she was shuffled between three different counselors in less than two months. More recently, another therapist missed appointments, leaving her waiting and disappointed. Oh, Lord. One, after she had opened up about some trauma that she had, as far as, you know, some historical trauma. That was very tough for her. Um, but she opened up and was vulnerable even after her prior experience with being shuffled around. Um, now she's understandably, and I can notice, hesitant to trust the process. Yeah. With that last counselor. It was a Black woman. It's kind of tough to find that. But she had opened up and become vulnerable. And although she hasn't audibly said it to me, I am noticing that she is starting to recoil from the process. Yeah. It's heartbreaking, um, to watch her retreat a little more each time she's let down. Mm-hmm. And even though I'm in therapy, I know how tough it can be when you get to those, you're ripping off band-aids, and you're getting to those vulnerable moments. And then, you know, you have somebody just flake on you. Yeah. And I tried not to go mama bear on this last counselor myself. Like, I was very frustrated. Mm-hmm. Um, and at the end of the day, it's a business. Right. You know, you should be conducting yourself. Um. Yeah. The fortune is that insurance and cost aren't our biggest barriers, um, which somehow makes this even more frustrating. It feels like we've done everything right and still can't find her the consistent care that she deserves. Oof. Um, so my question is, how do I help my daughter keep believing in therapy when therapy keeps giving her reasons not to? Yeah. Oof. That's a doozy, because you said your daughter's 17, so. College. Yeah. Senior. Right, right. And you guys are in, like, a major city, but it's also still pretty white, I'm guessing, especially her environment. Oh, I was about to say that. Yeah, yeah. I thought it might be. I think she's one of every 30 black girls, even at her school. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, does your therapist have any recommendations for therapists to see minors? Because sounds like you looked up and found a great one, um, and now you're struggling to find the same thing for your daughter. This is hard because part of, part of the problem is, was she seeing maybe interns at that first place? I'm curious as to why she was shuffled around between so many therapists in such a short amount of time. Yeah. Those are both great questions. Um, my therapist has definitely made recommendations, but unfortunately, um, who he has provided do not see minors and I know we're right there at the cusp. Yeah. With that first entity, it was a state-funded, like, sliding scale type of entity. Yeah. So that may have contributed to it. They were counselors or registered therapists, but they, with two of them, they left the practice to go to a private practice. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, they weren't in network. And I've been so, I hate to say desperate, that I'm even looking at out of network. And you know how that is. I mean, it's going to be, and she's a student athlete. I'm already, you know, out of Catholic school. So there already are funds there, but I'm so desperate where it's just like, can we get once a month at your rate? You're a certain amount of times based on certain traumas. But yeah, so one was state-funded and the other one was within network, but she just had poor business management. And I just feel like she's just kind of like, whatever. Yeah. Everything short of, I don't want to really do this anymore. Right. So part of this is the problem with. The first place you said immediately when you were like, oh yeah, state-funded sliding scale. I'm like, oh yeah, they running through therapists quick because most people are there, you know, they're getting the hours, the experience or whatever. And then they going over to a private practice where they can make some more steady money. But the second therapist, you know, this sort of like missing appointments and late and scheduling issues and stuff like that. Unfortunately, that is we, I think that's a lot more common when you're working with insurance. And it's not necessarily that there's something, I mean, yes, the therapist is dropping the ball here, but dealing with insurance is such a giant pain in the ass for mental health professionals. I mean, really any healthcare professional will tell you doctor's offices have whole teams just to deal with insurance and the paperwork and the back and forth and what they'll pay and is this covered and your patient this and blah, blah, blah. Like they. Insurance has precious little to do with the actual care you receive. But these are adult problems. You know, these are things for adults to have to deal with and sift through and, you know, complain about capitalism and all that. Your minor child needs help. And so that's not, you know, that's not really her concern. And I wouldn't even say that that's something we need to try to get her to become more understanding of. I'm just saying it so that you have a better understanding of like, this is probably, this is probably going to be something I won't say you should expect to run into this issue because it shouldn't be happening. But anytime you can pay out of pocket or privately for healthcare, including mental healthcare, you're probably going to get better care because that therapist, like a therapist who doesn't take insurance, has so much more time to focus on clients. They don't have hours and hours and hours every week that they have to spend going back and forth with insurance and maybe getting paid, you know, $50 to see somebody and then they don't want to cover it or insurance feels like, you know, six sessions should be enough to work through PTSD or, you know, it's, I cannot overstate what a pain in the ass it is for practitioners. So especially if they're by themselves, they don't have, you know, a bigger team to help them. So if they're by themselves, they don't have a bigger team to kind of deal with that. They're, they're going to be a lot more overworked. And so stuff is going to slip through the cracks. So it's not acceptable, but I do understand how it happens because of that. So because if, if it's possible for you to pay out of pocket for one or two sessions a month, I would recommend that. But also when does your daughter, does she turn 18 soon? She is turning 18. Right at the start of the year. At the, okay. At the, at the top of next year. Okay. So you got another five or six months. Um, if, if you've tried to find an alternative, you know, as far as like paying out of pocket, seeing who is willing to see her, you know, on a monthly or, or, or biweekly basis, I would try to do that. But also it may open up and become so much easier once she is, uh, legally an adult, even though I understand why some therapists don't work. I really do get it because it comes with a whole other gamut of, of responsibilities and, and layers of stuff to, to sort through. And everybody is just not suited to working with kids. 17 is right there though. Like it's right there. So, um, I, I would, I would definitely give it a try anyway with private pay. Uh, if, if that's something you can swing, um, but I mean, ultimately the goal is to find somebody that is covered under your insurance who can also provide regular, consistent, good care for your daughter. And, um, I think the, probably the biggest issue you're going to run into is like, is she even still willing to talk about it knowing that the foundation for that may be ripped away at some point? And this is, this is part of why it's so frustrating, um, for practitioners in general, because they know that consistency in therapy is what helps to build the relationship, the therapeutic relationship. And that's when the real work can get started. But you're asking people to bear some of their most painful wounds and experiences over and over again, you know, to different people and they don't ever really see the fruits of that. I understand how your daughter, even if she hasn't vocalized it, how she's kind of retreating mentally. And so, you know, I think that's one of the things that she needs to be able to take away from the idea because like, damn girl, I keep coming in here, bearing my soul and, and, and crying to y'all. And then a few weeks later, I'm not even meeting with this person anymore. Like that'll throw anybody off. So it may be that she needs a few months, um, you know, maybe not in the pursuit of therapy. Uh, maybe just, I'm assuming she's going to enter her senior year of high school or she just finished. She's going to enter her senior year. Okay. Yeah. So maybe she just needs to be able to, you know, be able to, you know, be able to, you to enjoy the rest of the summer. Summer is actually peak time for people to not go to therapy because they're like, oh, the sun's out. The weather's nice. I'm having margs at the poolside. You know, I'm not thinking about therapy. So there may be more therapists with more availability in August or September as well. But, you know, maybe she just needs some time to chill with her mom, get ready for senior year, you know, back to school shopping and that sort of thing. I would also look into I'm not sure how many groups are available for for people her age or if it's appropriate to what she's gone through. If it's something specific like sexual assault or losing a parent or something, something like that where we call it's like capital G grief and there tends to be a lot more resources or, you know, people are putting or being a lot more. Intentional about the support that is offered for people who have gone through experiences like that. There may be like a group teen therapy that she resonates with, but also because of where you live, she's going to probably be in group with a bunch of white kids who may. So and, you know, part of the problem is that sometimes you can end up re-traumatized in the pursuit of therapy. And she may be there. And so that's why I'm saying it might be worth it to I'm kind of spitballing and throwing out a few different ideas. But, you know, it may be worth it to to spend some time out of therapy, looking at other things that could be options. But, you know, maybe waiting for her to say, Ma, I think I'm ready to, you know, try it again. Or if you notice something is going on, she seems to be more depressed or anxious or withdrawing from the things she loves, whatever. School activities she's in or friends, things like that, then maybe we can be a little bit more aggressive with the search. But I think it's OK to just feel it out from here. And, you know, you don't stop looking. But we also have to have some understanding for your daughter and her experience. This would have turned me off of therapy. It would have. This would have frustrated me to no end. And I'm big and grown. So, you know, that I think it's beyond understandable that she's you know, maybe retreating a bit mentally. So I think you being in therapy, you continuing to show up for your daughter is the best thing for her because you're modeling for her what therapy can do when you find the right practitioner. So you stick with it. You show her, you know, you see mommy's been in therapy. Mommy's growing and changing. Like I'm putting to work these new things and it's hard, but it's doable. You are your child's biggest teacher, her most important. You are her primary source of inspiration. And so that seeing you do the work is going to be probably the biggest thing that keeps her in the running for, you know, rejoining that process herself. But yeah, it's understandable that she's over it. And I see how how we got here for sure. Yeah, no, those are some great, some great feedback. And I'm blessed enough to have a therapist that's in my insurance, but he's been candid with me throughout the process, even super billing and explain like, you know, on paper, it may seem like only six visits, but we're gonna be here right um but i do agree with maybe pulling back and then letting her come back to it that's what happened the first time around where she was shuffled around yeah she saw me in therapy and came back around like hey i want to do that too um but just continuing to look and then yes have her come to me yes for sure um and also i would if if she goes back either you talking to the therapist uh beforehand or her saying it herself but like i've been through issues where or i've had experiences where i've tried to open up to therapists i've been open to therapy and it has not worked for this reason and this reason so i would love to work with you but i i also want to make sure this is a good fit and that you're ready to commit to this process which you should not have to say because that is where you know and that's where the um for lack of better words kid fury in me almost came out oh yeah you should not have to say because that is where you know and that's where the um for lack of better words kid fury in me almost came out oh yeah i had a consultation with her and i told her oh you did and she still like going to us like this so it was just like so you tried that and it see you know and that comes back to all therapists are not created equal just like all doctors all nurses all anybody unfortunately you know you can get excellent care like you're like you're a therapist you can get excellent care from a you can get substandard care from somebody who was forewarned and still decided to be on fuck shit like that's the sort of thing like girl i i hope you reported her i hope you i hope you said something yeah tell the state that she is abandoning her responsibility as a therapist because that license means something girl like i understand you might be overwhelmed but you got to tighten up especially when it comes to the minors that's how i you know but y'all know how i feel about kids so there's definitely some strongly worded letters yes because this is i mean this is her professional obligation and your daughter deserves consistency and every fucking therapist knows that consistency is required in order for therapy to work so yeah i would i would tell state like maybe we don't need to snatch her license but y'all need to poke her in the back or something and be like hey tighten up yes well thank you so much for your feedback of course of course thank you marley for calling in and i am wishing you and your daughter the absolute best thank you so much thank you babe you have a good one take care bye boy nothing burns my biscuits more than therapists who ain't doing what the hell they supposed to do but don't get me started i'll be in here all night ranting and raving about it oh that is gonna wrap up the live callers this week thank you so much to everyone who called in if you're interested in chatting with me live send me an email advice at chris's couch dot com follow us online at chris's couch and we'll see you next week on any journey using uber it helps to know you're getting into the right car pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride before the trip begins your app gives you a unique pin just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start hey what's your pin two five three eight that way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from uber one more way uber is putting safety at every turn learn more on the uber app i hate mondays king's hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite taylor hansen sure i'll try one hey let's get back to work please but taylor hansen's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly king's hawaiian cinnamon bites taylor hansen nice try one there's nothing like it have you heard that mcdonald's spicy chicken mcnuggets made with spicy tempura and a blend of aged cayenne are back remember to grab a few extra napkins for a limited time at participating mcdonald's