(upbeat music) - Hi and welcome to Crystal Scouch, the show where I answer your letters for advice and talk to the most interesting people in the world. Today on Crystal Scouch, I'm joined by Mariah and Taz, high school best friends, and the creators and hosts of Sisters Who Kill. It's a true crime podcast focused on black women who commit murder, created to challenge how these stories are traditionally framed, reported, and remembered. Through careful research, cultural context, and thoughtful conversation, the show looks beyond the crime itself to examine race, gender, power, and the criminal justice system, all while centering the humanity of women whose stories are often flattened or sensationalized. Since its launch, Sisters Who Kill has become an essential voice in true crime, not just for what it covers, but for how it asks listeners to think differently about accountability, empathy, and whose lives are afforded the benefit of complexity. And now you can catch them live on their back from the dead tour, crazy name, girls. It's happening across the country this summer. Please welcome Mariah and Taz to the house. - Hello. - Hi. - Thank you so much for being here. - Thank you for having us. - Of course, I'm very excited. I've heard a lot of great things about your show. Tell me how it sort of came into existence, how did this idea come about? - Well, back in the day, I had never heard of a podcast before. My best friend said, you should listen to these podcasts. They're so amazing. I heard this amazing voice come from the speakers. - Okay. - And here we go. - I said, wow, we're just this interesting. - Yeah. - But what will we talk about? Not hot topics, 'cause I don't keep up with the, what's going on on the internet. And years passed and I said, Taz, I think we got a good idea because just like all great ideas, COVID happened. - Right. - And then we started talking on the phone and we realized that we had nothing to talk about, but what we were consuming and Taz was consuming a lot of documentaries. I was consuming a lot of podcasts and we just started talking about true crime and I said, by golly, I think we got it. - And it went just like that. So how did it, the whole premise kind of sounds like snapped except just black women? Did you all say, hmm, what we're noticing, a trend in these true crime stories where black women are just like being ignored or you just assume the worst or, what have you sort of uncovered as you've started doing this show that made you realize something was off and how black women's stories are being told? - Well, when we were first fleshing out the idea, we knew we wanted to be true crime and I was like, anything I do, I wanted to be for black people. - Okay. - And when I was like, anything I do, I wanted to be for women. So that's when we - Love that. - Narrowed it down to black women. And we were like, but we don't want to, and talking about murder, we don't want to do black women to disservice, right? - Right. - We don't want to just highlight that they're doing murder. So we was like, let's talk about what may have led them there. Let's talk about injustice and say may have faced them all the way. Let's talk about whether or not they got a fair trial and kind of like humanized them. Like, so we had this case, our first case was jazz and jazz. We went to high school with them. - Oh wow. (laughs) - So two people, y'all went to-- - Four twins. - Arizona. - Yeah. - Jazz and jazz as I get it. And they murdered somebody together. - And their mom. - Oh shit. (laughs) - They murdered their mother. - Yeah. - And then came to school. And then-- - This is when y'all was in school? - Yeah. - No, shut up. (laughs) So y'all was like, remember? - There's not my name. - And I agree. (laughs) - Oh damn, okay. So y'all were like, yeah, let's start with them girls. We went to school with who taught they all mama. - 'Cause it was a story that we kind of closely followed. - Right, right. - High school was right. - But I think one of the things that we noticed when hearing the story was, it was white newscasters telling the story. - Oh yeah. - And they would always be like, it was so unfortunate 'cause their mom took such good care of them. They always had their hair done. They always had nice clothes. But how do black moms apologize? - I'm by you. - You know what I mean? - And so white people just don't have that context to tell the story. So it was like, we're gonna bring in that context when we're telling the story. - Damn. - So y'all, you've been friends since high school. Were y'all, y'all were friends already when this happened, the twin murder? Were y'all already like clothes, or did y'all get? - Listen, what were we friends yet? 'Cause we weren't friends at first. - Okay. - We might probably-- - I think, 10th grade I think. So we had to be like a little bit coming for it. - Okay, yeah. - So what has, what has stayed the same since high school? Do you think since those early days? - Like in our friendship? - Yeah, between the two of you. - The ability to style talk shit. (laughing) - We like gossip about people that we know, people we don't know, we love that. - Okay. - And I think we kind of bring that gossip style talking to the show. - Okay. - We're very much talking like. And then she said, you know, so. We still value our friendship outside of the show. So we still go out play tennis and be like, wow, it's so fun. This is an hour with you and I'll talk about work. - Right. - We still try to keep that element in our friendship so that we can do work. - Okay. Yeah, 'cause I definitely want to dive more into the show itself and those themes you brought up, but I'm also interested in that transition from being friends to being business partners, 'cause it's not always an easy one. And the more successful you get, sometimes the more that strain can be. So it's interesting to hear y'all talk about, you know, we make sure we prioritize that time outside of like work. - Right. - So it's like the only time I'm seeing you is not just to sit down and talk about business, but you make sure to nurture that. So you've been doing this, you've been doing this show for six years? - Five. - Five years. - Okay. - This is kind of 2021. - Okay. And I mean, it is blowing up. I heard about the Vogue feature and that's fine. - Yeah, y'all going on tour and all this. So the success is definitely there. Do you feel like there's been an impact on your friendship more in a positive way? Do you think maybe it's strengthen things or has it just made your friendship look different? - I think it just looks different. - Okay. - Like, one, this is the first time since high school, we've lived in the same state. - Oh, okay. - 'Cause she's going to college all out of state. - Okay. - Before the Alabama, Virginia, all of that. And so I think we're seeing each other a lot more. We're having to talk to each other a lot more. And I think, you know, before in the friendship, what she had going on was what she had going on and what I had was what I had. So, you know, if your life I don't have a opinion about it. But now it's like, okay, this is ours. We have to agree upon it. - Yeah. - I think there was just like different points where I think it's different because both of our opinion matters and we had to learn how to value and hold both even when they contributed. - Okay, yeah. So, when you all are sitting down thinking about like what the next episode of the show is gonna look like, how do you decide which stories are more important to tell? Like, what does the prioritizing process look like? - I think they're all important to tell. I think it's just in a way that our audience can constantly digest it. So, we really limit the cases where the deceased is a child or where abuse comes to a child. Those happen once every other month and that's, and there's certain cases that are really popular, really sensationalized that we're just like, you know, the case, go do another podcast 'cause it's just a lot to talk about. But I think that we just tried to make sure that the themes change. So, it may be a drunk driver, or maybe somebody hit by a car through episodes in a row, right? But one is because of drunk driving. One is because of a medical condition. And one is because of texting and driving. We want to make sure that the themes are constantly changing. So, people can realize that anything can change your life. I think that's the big takeaway that one bad decision to text and drive, one bad decision to pull up at your boyfriend's side, girl house. When you know you should, like that one bad decision to change your life. So, we try to make sure that we're keeping it entertaining because it's still entertaining for the people. We hope. And we want to make sure that we're bringing new life to every episode. - Okay. - Yeah. - Yeah, because that's such a good point. And I think maybe more of us know like, ooh, you know, driving drunk, obviously, not something you're supposed to do, driving distracted. But a lot of people get caught up in like that heat of the moment, that sudden anger that comes over you. And I feel like that's where a lot of true crime stories are about. It's like a woman found out that her partner was doing something messed up. And she was like, you know what I'ma do, go over there. And I'ma assert myself. And then for you know it, one or more people are dead. And it's just like, girl, the ability to take a step back would have gone a long way here. - I think we talk a lot about the emotional maturity because there's some cases where these girls are like 19 to 20 years old. And they're in prison for the rest of their lives. - Because you just didn't know how to just calm down. And I said this in a recent episode, this girl, she had a gun and the gun ended up being what she used to kill somebody else. But she broke into somebody's car to get that gun. I was like, you can't break into somebody's car and find a therapist. You can break into somebody's car and find a gun. So I think that still people need to think about the fact that you have to go a level deeper with how we help people not make bad decisions. - Yes, so yeah. - And some of that, like you said, that's youth, you know, your brain's not even done developing at 19 or 20, so. While you should have some ability to regulate yourself, it's a little more understandable when somebody that young is flying off the handle, but you all cover all kinds of stories. And not even just modern ones. Y'all go back in the day to talk about black women who was murdering in like the 1800s and stuff. - But you know, the system hasn't changed. Like America has upgraded their system, [BLANK_AUDIO]
the so-called "Wills of Justice" are not, like, the outcomes are the same for black women. Going through those stories, so many similarities from the way the newspaper talks about the women. Yes, they're a kinky hair and you agree. So, you know what I mean? Like, in the old ones. And you still see them, like, describing them that way, or people are talking about how people look, you have it, to where people are fighting for their rights, and they ask for help, but didn't have resources to get help back in the day. And now they're here today still not having resources to get help. It's the same patterns that are going. Yes, and like so many other aspects of American culture. How much money you have and how many resources you have makes all the difference when it comes to how much time you serve in prison. If any, right. It's really all about what you can afford. And if you can't afford that top dollar lawyer who can, you know, wheel and deal you out of that prison sentence and you'll be going to jail for the rest of your life at 18 for one impulsive decision. And so many episodes were like, if we took all this money and invested it into getting in front of and we wouldn't have to lose life on the best. And I think that's when we had to sit there in question, like as a society at what level are we responsible? You know what I mean? Yes. And but I think we are. People want to sit there and complain, oh, you want to trial and spend our tax dollars. Like, yeah, they're fighting for their lives. Right. This money could have been better spent, right. Get in help when they were younger. So they command it through the situation better. Yes, we think about an episode we just did Tiffany Woods. And she just got denied parole. And she, her child ended up passing away because after Katrina lost everything, benefits, you know, those were physical benefits of time. If you were in New Orleans or you were in Shreveport because you were leaving New Orleans, you had nothing. You had no money. She couldn't buy formula. She couldn't buy anything for the baby. She could buy stuff for the big kids. She ran out of her wig. And she ran out of her wig and her baby was on a specialized form. And so then she started giving the baby cows milk. Oh, no. That's not the right thing to do. She didn't. She was like, okay, like, you know, formula has a picture of a cow on it. And if you don't know if you're a young parent and they're not giving you the proper education when you are pregnant, you don't know what to do. And so now she's in jail for the rest of her life because they said that since it was cruelty against a child. But what has been like 30, 40 years now? And they're like, she should have been able, she had beer and her fridge. She had beer and they had dead beer. And they was like, if you can't afford beer, you can afford. Well, that's not true. That's a totally different price point. Beer is way cheaper than formula. It's only different price point. But like way cheaper. And I think she was, they was like, well, you saw your baby getting skinny and you didn't do anything because she was like, my baby was premature. I didn't and didn't know. Like, well, you have other kids. You should have known. They said all the other kids, well fed, you know, a little dirty, but well fed fridge will stock to it food. But she just didn't have the right resource. And there was like, no, there was resources everywhere for New Orleans. And there's like, no, there's not. Somebody made a very good point. They commented after episode. And they said, the Saints took a whole year off. They took a whole year off. But the play was the recovery in three months. So yeah, she didn't even know if her family was still alive. She's trying to keep all these children. The pelicans three they came on the city. That's how we ended up getting about not that that's the point. But the major sports teams in New Orleans stopped playing in New Orleans. Shut everything. They can't recover with all that money. You have a lot of expectations. Right. For a mom. Right. When a premature baby three months after she lost everything she owns. Right. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you could permanently delete one thing from your brain, what would it be? This might sound kind of silly. And in the grand scheme of my life, it probably is. But I did have a failed romantic encounter earlier this year that really triggered me in like my deepest places. And it's been harder than I thought it would be bounce back from that. I let it take up way too much mental space for way too long before I finally just broke past the shame and talked to my therapist about it. And I'm very glad I did because now I'm definitely moving on and feeling better. But it was quite the emotional journey to get here. If you've been thinking about starting therapy, consider BetterHelp. They have thousands of licensed experience professionals who can help you work through whatever may be holding you back. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you. All you have to do is complete a short questionnaire to help them identify your needs and preferences so you can get right to the work of focusing on your therapy goals. But if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. BetterHelp is now in network with more than 125 health plans with many co-pays as low as $15 for eligible members. 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[email protected]/cissle. This year I've been really fortunate to spend a lot of time with the people I love, including a few group trips around the country to just hang out and enjoy being around each other. My friends and family mean everything to me and that's why I have a life insurance policy in place to take care of my final expenses. Things are so overwhelming when a loved one passes away and I want mine to have one less thing to concern themselves with when that time comes. With Policy Genius, I was able to find a plan that fits my needs by allowing me to compare quotes from top insurers side by side before I made a decision. Policy Genius has a license team ready to help you get what you need quickly so you can get back to doing the things that matter with the people you cherish. They were able to help me with paperwork and answered all the questions I had throughout the entire process making it really smooth and seamless for me. Make a smart move today to help protect their tomorrow. With Policy Genius, you can see if you can find 20-year life insurance policies starting at just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. Head to policygenius.com to compare quotes now. That's policygenius.com. So that kind of leads me into my next question of you all have covered so many of these stories for the past five years. What patterns have you noticed in Black women's mental health that seems to repeat across these different events? Childhood trauma. Well shall we get into this? The child that trauma is my hope. Yes, so you've noticed most of these perpetrators went through something real messed up in there. This kind of ties back into the earlier conversation about resources when your community don't believe in mental health. They believe in praying about it or talk to Jesus, talk to pastor and that being the end all be all and you don't have really anything outside of that to help you. People are just trying to figure it out on their own and that has disastrous consequences. Sometimes it's not even the church. It's mom didn't know what to do. grandma didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know who to talk to. We didn't even know that it was an option for somebody to say no don't do that. I think a lot of times it's really interesting like Taz and I have been friends forever but like her child at trauma is different from much. We can both say you know it was rough growing up. But it forms in two different ways which makes us see the world in two different ways which means we're probably going to commit to different types of murders. Yeah exactly. And it's those nuances of how do we intervene early and how do we make these resources available now. I went to like a political forum the other day and I was like okay so you guys are talking about infrastructure and the housing. I was like what are we going to do about the kids? Like there's nothing in especially our county the Cap County Georgia. There's nothing there for the youth and we're wondering why there's gangs everywhere. When everybody's getting shot every night because there's nothing for the youth are we going to do arts? Are we going to do sciences? What are we going to do? And I think that even the schools in Decape are trash. But like on a local level especially on a federal level you have to figure out how we're going to intervene in the communities that need the help. There's the best art programs on the white side of Atlanta. These kids, their nannies drop them off and their nannies pick them up but the kids whose mom has to work at night probably being the rich kids nanny they are sitting at home letting themselves in letting themselves out getting in trouble. And I think that if only somebody would just if it just clicked in the government's mind to give a fuck. Yeah I don't know if I can guess but like if it would just click to just give a fuck about the youth I think the world will be just a better place like call me an optimist. Well that would require the government to actually care about the well being of its black citizens on the local and federal level and depending where you are I mean the federal government we all know. But locally you know you have a very different experience in Georgia than you do in parts of California or parts of New York versus Texas or wherever else. Like the resources and what your government is willing to do for you very so much. And so all of that combined with like the systemic inequality and the racism, the discrimination and the specific hell of misogyny that black women face that combination of racism and misogyny. Have you all noticed that a lot of the women that you profile end up killing their male partners is that how that works out or is it kind of spread across again? Mostly killing the male partners or hiring somebody to do.
- You killed the melt partners. - Sometimes it's 'cause they were abused and felt trapped. Sometimes it's because you cheated and they hurt. - Yeah. - And, you know, just, but yeah, there's a lot with, we'd be like, okay, we can't do another girl killing her boyfriend at least. - When we get a roommate, a boss something, something else. - And we have people, I mean, not killing the, we had one that like killed her landlord. That was always interesting, you want a rent? - Well, I mean, yeah, I don't feel you. I think housing is a human right. And at the same time, you can't really take somebody's life for that. But then sometimes those landlords are very predatory. Sometimes they're the abusers. Sometimes they're like, oh, well, I can take some money off the rent if you will, and the do some strange. But like you said, if you've gone through a childhood where you were abused, mistreated, neglected, all this other stuff. - Trigger something, you know. - 9.9 times out of 10, you gon' grow up and seek out that same dynamic and not even know it. So I just, I wondered because a lot of the true crime stories I see on TV that feature black woman. They're almost all, I killed that man because he was beating me or because he cheated on me. Like almost all of them. So I was wondering if y'all were noticing that same thing in your very specific. Like I feel like others kill for all kind of reasons. We pretty much have those two. Like you messed with me, you messed with my baby, or you stepped out, something like that. And I just flew into a fit of rage. Or you know, he had been, these women are like 68 and this man been cheating for 40 years and she finally got fed up something like that. - Or he was a good man and he had a great and life insurance policy. - Oh, and she said, you know what? - And he had my noble need that million dollar policy. So we can go live happily ever after. - All right, best ragged in. - That's right, killing for money. There's killing because he said he didn't want to be would be no more, like it's all of it. - Oh man. It's a divorce, it ain't free, but it's cheaper than prison. - I mean, I would think it's better than prison at the bare minimum, but I guess that allura of so, you know, 1.2 million dollar life insurance and he got a pension or whatever you like. Yeah, I'm getting all that. - Yeah. - Just don't get caught. - Well, well, we won't go there. (laughing) So how do you all, it sounds like you're very deliberate about navigating these conversations in a way that brings understanding to your audience without stigmatizing the women themselves. How do you balance that? - I think we're always like, you know, of course, wrong is wrong and nobody should kill, right? - Usually, I'm not gonna say always though. - You fantasize about murder? - I don't, anymore, I don't understand. But I do think murder is justified in some circumstances. - And I will say there's definitely big cases, like those abuse cases. - Like if I catch you sexually assaulting my child, out of here. - I'll gladly kill you. - Out of here. - I'll do it gleefully. - We had one woman that did that. Her only problem is that she got too many people involved in beating his entire family. - Oh, did she get into the mouth of you? - She like drug him to every male member of her family. - Who are you? - The wolf is her. - Oh, yeah, who are you? - Which I love. - Oh, that's a bad bitch. - Yeah, you can't do that. - You gotta just do it yourself. - Yeah, just do it yourself. - 'Cause then it's like all girl, premeditated. You sat here, you went on Google Maps and you said, and the next stop, and the next stop, can do it. - It was justified. - Yeah. So I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but you were talking about it. - I lost the question. - So how you all balanced talking about, the mental health side of things, and you don't wanna excuse unnecessary harm, but you wanna talk about the bigger picture. It's not just she killed somebody. There's other aspects here. - I think it's definitely just in highlighting it. A lot of people will say I didn't think about it that way, but what if this happened or what if that happened? And sometimes we get back last like, oh, you capin' for them, like murder's not wrong. And I'm like, I'm not saying that she's right. I'm just saying it's not as simple as you're making it to me. - Yes, yes. - So I think that's why I try and stand in all of it. It's never that simple. And people will sit here and give all the excuses to the white girls, even going back to Jazz and Test. They were monsters for killing their mom, but Gypsy Rose, everybody wanted to sit here and highlight her and give her all the stuff. So it's that same compassion that you can show for white women. We can have that same compassion for our people. - Yes, and we are usually the ones who are denied that benefit of the doubt. Right, like we're just never given that understanding of like we're human and one of the things that I learned in grad school that was so important to me is really breaking out of black and white thinking. Like almost nothing is black and white. There's so many layers to everybody's story. There's so many complexities to everybody's human experience. And so almost nobody is just, okay, you 100% dead wrong or whatever. Like there's always something else going on here that doesn't excuse it, but it can help you understand how somebody got here. - And I think sometimes that's the issue with the law. Everybody's like, you know, the law is black and white. The law is black and white, but the case isn't. - Right, yes. - And so how do you put in those factors when you're sitting here saying I say, oh, but she did think about it ahead of time. So that is this and it's like, okay, again, going back to us as a society. We saw her cry for help this time. She was in a domestic cell to hear. She was back looking for help here. And we're still not getting the resources she need, but now we want to say is your responsibility eat it? - And I just, this is asking the powers that be the care again. - Yeah. - So yeah, wishful thinking here. - Right. - But if we see a girl and we see that there is potential for her to go back into society, maybe after 10, maybe after 15, maybe after 20 years, but we see that there's potential. If only we cared and said, you know, this prison has this program for you. Let's make sure that your 20 years in prison are gonna benefit you so that when you get out with, I don't know, probably only $22 in a bus ticket, you still will have the skills to be ready for the new, it's gonna be a new world in 20 years. But again, asking people to care about people more than money and that's just too much. - Right, it's almost like we could spend less on preventing these situations than what we do to house and feed these people for decades of their lives. Not to mention the inhumanity. - Prison being a business, right? And it very much so is. - And it very much so is, yes. They don't want prison reform because then the people who own these, and operate these private prisons will lose their money. - Money. - So, damn. (laughing) - Only we gave a fuck. - Yes, yes. So what sort of responsibility do you all feel to the victims or their families when you're telling these stories? Do you think about that? - Yes. I think we feel like we just can't go to overboard. Definitely like in trying to empathize with the murderers, not victim blaming. And sometimes that's a hard line of follow, you know. Like, I remember we had this one case where this girl was bounced around and her aunt said, "I'll take her." And her aunt spoiled her daughter, got her brand new shoes in a girl. They got into a fight. And she ended up killing her cousin, still in her shoes and all her birthday gifts. And I was just on the end of, you know, she's saying that they got into an argument, but you don't know what that argument triggered in her. Like all this family, she's been bounced around. Maybe that made her feel less then. Maybe it felt that. Maybe the girl they're teenagers. So you don't know how her cousin came at her to make her like get to that point. And they're like, "So here's saying this." No, I'm not saying this is a cousin's fault. Because it should have never died. But I'm just saying we have to look and see. Again, what's leading them to that point? And I think that all, I just think it should be taken into consideration. - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, children is a whole other ball game. That's where I get very defensive because people already act like they don't really care about what kids really need. And so when you have a case like that, where kids have been bounced around, they don't have a stable home or stable parents. That already sets you up at such a huge disadvantage. So then you end up with an aunt, but you're living in the same household where your cousin is being shown this favoritism, receiving things that it sounds like you're not receiving. - And even just the way the mom talked about her daughter, my daughter was perfect. She designed everything and it's just like, maybe it was some jealousy brewing there that she didn't know how to deal with. - But that's understandable. - 'Cause you're a teenager and you already come from such lack. And so now you in this house where you see in somebody else be blatantly favoritized and showered upon and treated like a princess and you're over here like you're the leftovers or the sloppy seconds, that would put most people in their feelings, grown women, much less a teenager. So it's like, but yeah, people don't really wanna consider that. We kinda just wanna hear the basics of the situation. It's okay, you wrong or I can understand. And that's it. Like people don't really wanna look at it in a more complex way. But I think that's what our lives are. They are that complex. All of us. So do you ever hear from the families? - Sometimes, yeah. - Okay, and what has that feedback been like? - Sometimes it's, please take this episode down. - Wow. - This was very hard for me. Sometimes it's, you got the story wrong. That's not even what happened. Which we say would you like to come on and clear it up? - No, it's too hard for me to talk about it. - Okay, Van Will. I understand the book, but then I'm gonna have to leave that up. I'm gonna say, yeah. - I'm gonna say, yeah. - I'm just gonna have to go with the sources that are out there.
- Right, right. - One time we had a family that said, "Those videos that you posted were wrong." I said, "This is a video of you." (laughing) - It's police footage, it's police game. - You wanna come on our show and tell us how you like it to the police? - Ooh. (laughing) - And so sometimes that happens. We did have one early on this girl, Makayla. These white people moved into the neighborhood. They were gentrifying the neighborhood. They had these dogs that wouldn't stop. And she ended up killing them 'cause she wouldn't shut their dogs up. But when we started talking about the effects of gentrification, her family reached out to us and was like, "We never considered that." Thank you for her. And I was like, "Wow." - Wow. (laughing) - Why are you like that? - The white family said, "We did come in this black neighborhood." - And I was like, "Thank you for that perspective." - Yeah. - So, oh, wow, I mean, I get it. I mean, I'm not, I'm not going to kill a dog, but I do understand. It's like you came here and you disrupted the way we do things. And I'm sure somebody asked you more than once about getting your dogs together. So, Lord, okay, so I was gonna ask, has that hearing from the families has that shaped the way you all tell these stories? - Yes, it has. - Yeah, we had a case where it was a murder suicide. So one of the rules that we came up with was that the case has to have an ending where the person has been tried, got a date, took a plea, or everybody has had their demise. So this case was a murder suicide, and it was hot on TikTok. It was the hottest case. Everybody was talking about it. We were like, "We got to ride this wave and tell this story." The information is out there. Let's tell the story. I think we told the story. It came out on Friday, but the funeral for the family was that Saturday. And they were like, this big on you. - They were like, they're not even in the ground. Yes, big on TikTok, but y'all are a huge platform. And we haven't even buried my mom. And we were like, - That probably was too soon. - We'll give Sean a little more respect. - Yeah, so even though we have the rule of everything needs to be complete, as a sign of respect, we needed to figure out what completion really means. - Interesting. 'Cause I do wonder, is that more of a cultural, do you feel like that's more of a cultural consideration? Like out of this sort of, I feel like black people, we kinda have this, our little rules, where it's like, okay, you're not in the ground yet. That sort of thing. Whereas I feel like journalists would be like, "Well, this story is so fresh." - It's not fresh. - And it's done. - Yeah. - The cultural. - Yeah, I'm wondering if that's more of a cultural consideration for you, as opposed to like two people who are, you're not sloppily telling these stories, you're doing your research, you're approaching it responsibly, so it does sound like that's more of like, okay, black people, we get it. We do have a thing about people being in the ground. We do. - Yeah, yeah. - We have a thing about the funeral being over, and so y'all, so that's like a rule for y'all now, like. - Let's give it some time. - Services are done, and okay. - We also had another case. When we first recorded it, I was like, 'cause we call the person who murdered, we call him a murderist. - Right. - And we recorded it. I really don't wanna call her murderist, but the case was, the girls were pledging, or the girls were, the girls were pledging. (laughing) - The girls were joining an organization. - Okay. - And it was hell week, and they were just about to cross, and they had like people assigned to drive, and they were driving to get their hair done for their probate or whatever, and the girl having to stay up, keep her grades up, all the stuff falls asleep at the will, kills two of her sorority sisters in a back seat. She ends up in a hospital, whatever, and she was like, then we came out and was like, I was like, I don't really wanna call her a murderist, 'cause it was definitely no intent. - Right. - And she fell asleep at the will, trying to manage everything. That day-to-episode dropped, we get this long email, or the next day-to-episode drop, we get that long email from the girl, from the girl. - Who fell asleep? - Okay. - And she's just like, imagine me getting ready to go out, and I said, let me put this podcast on, and then hear myself named a murderist. After something like, she was like, we, you know, when you go through that, your trauma bond, that she was like, I love these girls. And then I had to go to school and be called a murderer, and now here it is 15 years later. - Oh, 15 years ago. - Yeah. - Oh, wow. - I was like, I'm sorry. (laughing) - My bad girl, it's like a technicality. - Right, I was like, I promised I didn't want to do it, but we ended up having them on the show. - Okay. - To tell theirs out of the story. And she said it was very cathartic. And like, you know, we ended up in a good place, but I was just like, now, sometimes me and Marabi like, wait, did they? - Wait, go on. (laughing) - So now we'd be like murderers? (laughing) - What's going on? - Yeah. Trying to like draw a distinction between people who accidentally murder someone versus people who very much set out to do that thing. I can see how hearing from that woman. I mean, my heart goes out to her. I would never even thought of that, but like, yeah, you've 15 years later, you've probably done a lot to try to move past there. - Has and struggle. - Right. - The guilt would be overwhelming, my guys. - And she's like battle with like suicide ideation. - Of course, yeah, I'm like that. - And she was like, now I'm right back in that spot. I'm right back 15 years ago. - Oh, she's like, how 'cause she had it, did. - Yeah, well, I mean, unfortunately, part of that is the consequences of what happened, but I think we can have empathy for her because you obviously did not intend to do this and it's a sad story, but it still happens. So it's interesting how you all take that sort of feedback and decide little ways to tweak the episode going forward. She was like, she was like, can you take the episode down? And I was like, honestly, the episode's pretty important. Since we're talking about this hill, we can raise everything that's happening. We ended up changing the murderous to the organization as the murderous. - Oh, the organization. - Oh, we still-- - Did they send y'all an email? - Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. They received the email that they implemented a new anonymous report for Hazing, and it was like, we think this is 'cause of y'all. I don't think it's 'cause of us, but I'm glad that you feel better about it. - Yeah. Well, because Hazing is a huge part of the problem, and it's banned by all these organizations officially, right, it's banned for a reason. Like, it is these very events. It's a so many cases of people dying. - Yes, and I feel like it happens every year, right? Every school you're some sneak of the secret line or whatever. - I hope people get involved trying to like-- - Right. Grass students and stuff coming in, just a whoop ass. - I mean, older than that, the old head. - Oh no, not the 30s and 40s. - It was done, yeah. - No! - It was done to me, and it's your turn, like-- - But those are the 30s and 40s that don't have a real job. - Right. - This is the highlight of their life career. - They still be on campus. - What about that? - Don't have no plans. - I'm a giant. - I remember like, the year was lame when I was in school. Not you still here, bro. - Oh, that's sad. But yes, it's like, this is important because it's still happening. Like, the stories of these hazing and these kids are trying to balance school and all this other stuff, and terrible things happen like this. So I can see the hazards. I would be hesitant to take the episode down too, but I'm glad that she was able to come on and sort of like give her side and some perspective to the story. So do either of you have like one particular case that really has stuck with you over the years? - Like a favorite. - Yeah, like a favorite, or do you share the same favorite? - No, I-- - Okay, that's-- - It should have told our favorite. - Okay, that's what it's my favorite. - Okay. - They met in an AIDS love connection thing because even in the UK, in the UK-- - AIDS like acquired immune deficiency syndrome, okay. - You know, afraid they won't be able to find love with the disease, but now people can come together. And so they met, the girl was toxic. Like, and the guy was just nice to her. And she's just like, she yelling at him. He was like, okay, I just can't do this anymore. I can't be with you. Even moved on, got a new girlfriend. And she was like, oh, you need to be with me. So she was like, Burton, in her life, like, I need you to just come be with me. I need you to just come be with me. He was like, I do still care about you. So I'm gonna just come over for tonight and make sure you good. So while he's laying in a bed, she gets a cup of acid, blows it on his face. He's running out the house. I mean, they said the door bill was melted. 70% of his body melted. He's yelling in the street acid acid. People thought he was high on acid. Like he's just like, Burton burned all over. So he ended up going blind. He's got tools in his mouth. He can't speak. He's paralyzed. Like, oh, my God. He's lost all quality of life, but he survives. Okay. He survives for three days.
two years, and his health is just declining. He's getting surgery after surgery from the burns, from the vision is always kind of, he's just been staying in a hospital pretty much since these two years. So he then moves to Germany so that he can do a medical suicide. - Okay. - And they retried her case as a murder. - Because he ended up doing the medically assisted death. - And it was like, I think we're gonna have to jump your charges from assault to murder. - Yeah. - At the end of the day, you did kill him. - You caused his death, like, you did. - You did. - The only reason he took his life is 'cause you made it unbearable. - Right, right. - So I thought it was so cool, like just a nuance, it's only. - He said, I love that shit. (laughing) 'Cause she probably was like, I'll locate God away with that. (laughing) - And her two years, imagine two years, kind of like, actually, we won't jump it up a little bit. - Yeah. - But girl, you deserve that in your life, man. - Yeah, absolutely. - Damn, that's so messed up. - RIP, what about you? - I think the case that I go back to the most is Virginia Christian, which is the only black woman to be executed in the state of Virginia. She was only 15 years old. She, oh, but the court said, no way that this dark-skinned, busty girl is 15. She must be 21. - What? - So again, over-sexualizing young black girls, not believing young black girls. She was the white lady that she was working for was constantly accusing her of stealing clothes, stealing silver, and she's like, no, I'm not. I'm just trying to feed my family. Parents are both paralyzed. And the only thing she can do since she can't go to school is be it made for this white woman. This is supposed to be her last day working for this white woman 'cause she found a new white family to work for that are gonna treat her better, gonna pay her better. She said, you stole my silver. No, I didn't, yes, you did. No, I didn't. They get into a fight. The white woman is trying to hit her with the broom. And they have this old school spit can. They're like, sterling silver, they're heavy. And so she hits the white woman with that. White woman goes down. And then they come, they find her bloodied clothes, but I think the biggest takeaway is that you were abused by somebody that you were working for. - Right. - She was trying to leave, there were multiple times where she tried to have somebody intervene between her and this white woman, including her parents because this white woman kept accusing her of stealing. And most of the time it was her kids that were, you know, mom's, mom's skirt, not the servant is taking your skirt. And so she, to this day is the only person executed in the state of Virginia. And they said they were going to execute her because they did not believe that she was actually 15 years old. And it just goes to a historical piece. - Yeah, right, I'm thinking like early 1900s or? - Yeah, it's, and they, and I always reference this case because I think it just goes to show how much the just, so-called justice system has not changed. How they still look at black girls. How they still judge black girls. How we're always seen as less than we're always over sexualized, aged up because, you know, like, just because a 15 year old, like if a 15 year old girl was today wearing selfies, the little selfie shorts, 15 year old black girl can't wear that because now you're being fast. Now you're the person that's being aggressive. You can't stand up for yourself in the ways that other people can. And I think that that case just shows that. And the fact that this minor was executed is beyond me. It's beyond me. - Yeah, it really goes to show how when black women do anything, whether it's justified or not, we have so much more to overcome in the process of, you know, going through this justice system than other people would. That's such a sad case. Like, you just defending yourself from this woman who's constantly attacking you, berating you, abusing you, and you end up being executed by the state. But I'm also not surprised, especially in the historical context. A white woman is dead. Your black ass is going there. - I kind of love Virginia. - Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You're out of here as a sister, unfortunately. - Yeah. - And, you know, not too much has changed in that regard really when you think about it. So it sounds like you all are really doing some incredible work with this show. Talk to me about the tour. Back from the dead, who's idea was that? - What a name. (laughing) - So this is our second tour. The first year was the Alive tour because they wanted to, it was their first time seeing us in person. - Like two months. - And so after that, we recovered from the tour. Touring is kind of exhausting. And then we were like, okay, we're back from the dead. So. - Gotcha. - So here we are. We've already hit a couple of cities. We've hit Atlanta, we've hit Nashville. We're headed to DC, to Orlando, to Houston, to Dallas, to Denver, Colorado, San Francisco, New York, get your tickets. - Okay. - Okay. (laughing) - I'll start the camera. (laughing) Gotta sell these seats. - Yes, so what, what is the live dynamic like for you versus when you're, 'cause I know all about it. So, but I want to hear what your experience is like when you're recording just by yourselves versus when you're in front of an audience. - When it's just by ourselves, we definitely get a lot more chances to like mess up and edit out. - Oh, okay, yeah. - 'Cause it's so much fact, you know? - Right, yeah. - And stuff like that. And so it's just like, okay, did I get that right? So, this is a lot more memorizing it, but we also like to try and put in an extra element to our live shows. - Okay. - A little visual effects, if you will. Just to keep 'em focused. - It's a little razzle-dazzling on the stage, yeah. - Some little vignettes, maybe photos and videos to illustrate the point of what's going on. - I'm gonna really give you a full theatrical experience while we're sitting down, telling you a good story. - Yeah, I heard one of you is an actress, and I think it's probably you. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I guess. - Yeah, it's a real experience. (laughing) - It kind of just jumped out at me, so. (laughing) So has the live show format changed the way you think about the impact of your show? - I think for our live show, we definitely want us, like, we're very specific about it. Like, it's gotta be a plot twist in it. - Okay. - We want a little black history in it. I bet y'all didn't know. - Yeah. - That it was so, you know what I mean? Have you ever heard of this person? Well, guess what they did, you know? So we always do a little bit of that. And then, oh, Mickey Laugh. Oh, make sure you have a good time. - Yeah. And hopefully you're drunk enough to enjoy it. (laughing) - Right, it's a strange thing to try to balance, like, being entertaining, but also, we're talking about something pretty gruesome, you know? Almost all the time. So it's like, here we go, real fucked up story, y'all. But we gonna tell it in a fun way. - Yeah. (laughing) - And we have always been very casual. And everybody says, when we listen to y'all, we feel like we're talking to our home. So we talk to y'all in the car. So we interact with the audience. - Love that. - It's like, we're getting, we're like, what'd you say? I know, right? - So people really enjoy it. - Yeah. It sounds like a good time I might have to come through in New York when y'all come. - Yes, I need to see what this live dynamic is like. (laughing) 'Cause it sounds fun. So with the heaviness of everything you all cover, how do you take care of your own mental health after like, you know, you go through all these horrible details and you learn about all these terrible stories? How do you take care of yourself and make sure you're bringing joy and peace and all that back into your mind and your space? - I don't have the healthy, correct answer for this. - Well, and I mean, that's also an answer. You like, I don't do that, girl. I don't. - I think, you know, it's, we spend so much time on a case each week and when you're consuming this much information, I compare it to like studying for a science test where you cram it in your mind. You know every single piece of information. You can spit it out when the teacher asks you. - Oh yeah. - And as soon as you walk out of that classroom. - God. - I don't know any of this. - Yes. - So I relate. - But in the episode to come out on Friday, it would be like, and when you said I said, what was I talking about? - Oh my God. - Like, I don't. - No, that happened to me. People like, and you said such and such. And I'm like, as soon as I go back and listen to get what you're talking about. As soon as I step away from that mic, I have no idea what I said. (laughing) - And I get it. - My cousin would be talking to me. She'd be like, and then yeah, I was talking about it. And I'd be like, who? She'd be like, you just did this episode. I'd be like, tell me more. - And I don't know what you're talking about. - And if things come up, like, sometimes non-profit organizations come up that really speaks to us, we, when we are recording, we'll like say, okay, hold on, let's do a donation to this non-profit process. - Oh, nice. - So this camera comes off. We're gonna be talking about what's for dinner. And we want to still make sure that we're doing the impact that we want to do. When the cameras are on, we work. And then when the cameras are off, we-- - Chill. - Chill. - Yeah. - Yeah. - You know, sometimes self-care is accidentally fallen asleep with your makeup on. - Oh, yeah. - Sometimes self-care is doing the whole night time routine. I think it's different for everybody, but-- - My self-care is your holiday TV. - Of course. - Oh, yeah. I love the zone out. Like, let me just turn on some trash. - Let me get a smile. - Yeah. - Let me just turn on my 90-day fiancee. - Yes. - Everybody else is busy. - Oh, baby. - Talk shit about all these people. - Okay, 'cause I need to do it before the 90 days. I need to do 90 days overseas. I need to do the follow-ups all of that. Like, just let me turn on something where I can turn my mind off. - Yes, my housewives. - Oh, yeah. You gotta have your housewives. And I love my feel-good sitcoms, like Abbott Elementary. - I have an elementary. - I'm turning on the office. I'm turning on-- - Yes. - I'm turning on all the things that just-- - I can just-- - Bob's burger, Bob's burger. - Bob's burger place. I'm just like-- - So, like, the y'all, I love parks and rec. - Yeah, stuff like that, right? So, how has the success of this show? you are feeling.
like, oh my God, I'm famous. Now, the burden of-- - I feel like things don't call me famous. - Oh, and she's like, it's what I've been waiting for. I can use more. - You like, I am exactly what I'm supposed to be. I knew this was where I was going, and I'm on my way up. - Absolutely. I didn't think it was going to be what true crime. And Taz and I have always been trying to figure out what our next thing is, 'cause we know that Sisters of Kill is our constant, we love it. But what is the next thing that really flows into our brand? So I know that like, performing and getting on stage and somebody booked me, please do. - Boy, she is hitting this camera, okay. - I want you to watch the office, I'm like (laughs) but I know that that one's, I want that to be my next step. Taz is business. Taz is, I don't know how I convinced my friend to be on camera, but like, business, fashion, being a smart person, like, that's her thing. So, we're trying, we love what we're doing and we're always trying to figure out what the next best thing is. - That's real, you feel the same way, you just kinda, 'cause she's got a very big personality. - It's so funny, I remember being in high school, we had SAT propped together and she was like, I know what I want to be, I want to be an actress and I don't care. I don't care if I have to be a starving artist, I know what I want to be, that I'm changed. - I'm doing my best, I know a lot of the villains are starving. - I said, I don't, I said, I don't want to be famous, I don't even want to know somebody famous. And she was like, I said, all right. - And now look at you. - Yep, she don't drag me alone. - Yeah, but y'all are doing an incredible job. Congratulations. - Thank you, thank you. - On the success of the show, please tell the people where they can find it and where they can get tickets for your show. - That's right, back to the camera. (laughing) You can get tickets to our show at cistersukilllive.com, that cistersukilllive.com, you can follow us anywhere. Instagram, cistersukillpod, TikTok, cistersukillpodcast, X, Twitter, cistersukill. Personally, you can follow me at morat_the-magnificent. (laughing) - Love that, everyone about you. (laughing) - You can follow me at underscore, and I'm test. - And I'm test, oh my God. Even your user names are so reflective of your personality. - It's literally when we do the episode, she says, what's going on, everybody? I'm morat and I say, and I'm test. - Oh, I love this. (laughing) - Well, again, congratulations. - Thank you. - On the show, thank you all so much for joining me today on Crystal's Catch. This was incredible. Can I wait to see y'all when you come to the city? So, thank you again, and thank you for tuning into Crystal's Catch. You can find me at Crystal's Catch. And if you have a question for me, please send me an email,
[email protected]. We'll see you next week.
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