Session 23 ft. Roxane Gay

- Hi and welcome back to Crystal's couch, the show where I answer your letters where I guys and talk to the most interesting people in the world. Today I am so honored to be joined by the incredible Roxanne Kaye, one of the most important voices of our time. She is the author of groundbreaking works like That Feminist and Hunger, a memoir of my body, where she's redefined how we talk about feminism, identity, body image, and the complexities of being human. Her work is as intellectually sharp as it is deeply personal, creating space for honesty, nuance, and vulnerability and conversations that often lack all three. Through her writing, commentary, and cultural influence, Roxanne has challenged me personally to think deeper and confront uncomfortable truths with clarity and compassion. I am truly honored to have her on the couch today. Please welcome Roxanne Kaye to the show. (audience applauding) Hello, my goodness. Hello, I'm truly honored to have you here. I'm a little flumished, actually, and just so grateful because you are really one of these writers for me and someone I've been reading casually for a long time. Hunger really, really made such a huge impact on me. I found that book to be just so moving and really illuminated a lot of things for me that I had not previously considered. So thank you for being here. Thank you for insisting on audio only because although we do have a video component to this show, usually I didn't even know it was audio only. I even yelled at my baby ears. (laughing) They told me they were like, Roxanne's people asked can it just be audio? And I'm like, absolutely, I want to keep a podcast, a podcast. So, I mean, shut up podcast. You literally, so thank you so much again for being here. I want to jump into something that I think may be a little more lighthearted or fun. I know that you have a dog, Maximus Toretto Blueberry, this is nice. - He's right here, Maximus Toretto Blueberry Milman gay. - Milman gay. (laughing) And how old is Maximus now? - Maximus. - He'll be a bee. - Oh, what a sweet heart. - He just said he's five. He's gonna be six this year. - Oh man, how has dog parenthood changed you? - I mean, I don't like dogs. And so, I'm the dog person, but I guess now I am or at least I'm a max person. It's been so eye-opening because I had never had a dog before. I grew up in a Haitian household. Animals belong outside. Notepads plus my mom was a clean freak. And so, she always thought dogs were messy though she did love max very much. But, you know, it really does show you what your capacity for love is in a way that is even more that is different than from loving a human which also is a very profound experience. But, I know that he needs me. He has to be taken care of. I mean, he's very independent, very bright, very bold. He thinks he's a pit bull. And I find that adorable, but he raised 10 pounds and can't hate if we don't see him. And so, I know that it's not parenting, but I understand what it means to care for someone who needs that care regardless. We'll never not need that care. And it has definitely, I feel like I already had a big heart, but it's certainly expanded my heart. He's, and we got, I don't know, for me, it's because it's my first dog I have nothing to compare it to, but I feel like we got a very good dog. He's just sweet. He gets along with everyone. He is a barker, which is a bark. It is. He picks it upon himself. We live here in New York and also in Los Angeles. And if you walk by our house, if you think about walking by our house, if you look at it, if you pause too long, if you pull up, he has something to say. And it's so funny, he's so territorial. And, you know, he's just a fascinating creature. Do you have a dog? - I do. My dog Laney is one and a half. So I'm deep in the puppy. - Oh, yes. Of course I remember Laney from daycare. (laughing) - Oh, you saw Laney's session there. - I sure did. Laney worked out there. - She was out there and she in the streets. She's in the streets and I was in the street. - Yeah, she's friendly, you know. She loves other dogs. She's never met anyone, dog or human that she does not like. She is the sweetest girl. So she has really pushed me in a lot of ways. Just walking her multiple times a day and having to talk to other people because she interacts with their dogs and with them. And she's just always auditioning for someone's love or attention. But I really relate to what you said about this. You know, it isn't parenthood, but it teaches you something about yourself when you are in service to this dependent being. And of course dogs are different from human children in that way because kids grow up and become their own autonomous beings. Whereas dogs will always need us. They are perpetually, you know, three years old. So I like that in some ways. You know, it just has completely also reoriented my relationship to time because we got him during the pandemic. And wow. So we were holed up in LA and other than the world falling apart, we had a blast. The first time we were living together, everyone calling to check in on us. Like are you guys okay? Yeah, we're okay. And we just aloke, we're good. Don't worry. And we had at the time of our lives. And to have this little dog just sort of bouncing around, he assumed that we never left the house. Oh, right. That if we did leave the house, he went with him. He went with us. And so now, you know, when we leave the house, he looks at us like it is the biggest betrayal that has ever betrayed. I think it's like little like watery eyes. And he's, especially in LA, he'll like, when we go to the garage, there's a glass door for the kitchen and he stares at us with his head sort of cock to the left as if to say, Oh, no. You forgot something. Right. And so now what I'm out, I understand people who are always like, I have to go check on the dog. But now I'm like, we have to go back. We have a dog. We can't be out like until three in the morning. Just, right. They're free. Yes. And I also, and I enjoy that aspect of, you know, Laney will never really grow, you know, she won't grow up and move away from me and break my heart in that way. It'll be something devastating in a different way. But I also found it really rewarding and validating to take care of someone who I felt really deserved it because I had been sort of taken care of since childhood, taking care of adults, emotional needs, with, you know, without really being aware of that. But it turned me into, I started therapy maybe seven or eight years ago and immediately I sort of switched into this mode of, oh, I'm not taking care of shit. I'm not taking care of anybody or anything like I deserve all my attention. And so giving that now to someone who, quote unquote, deserves it like a dog has been really validating and rewarding for me. So when I know someone else has a dog, I always when we talk to them about their experience of being a dog owner or a pet parent, however they refer to themselves because it can really change your life. It can crack your heart wide open. - It really can. And, you know, my wife has had dogs before. She had two dogs before we met and they died about six months before we met. And they had, she had had them for like 17 and 18 years. So it was rough. And when we met, she actually said, I'm not ready for another dog and I said, that's great because I am never going to have a dog. - I don't do that. - That's not for me. And if you want to date me, just know there will not be a dog in our future. And then I noticed in the first couple of years of dating that whenever we would be walking around in the city, she, if she's a dog, she'd be like, and it's particularly funny because she's a lifelong New Yorker. Like she's the kind of person who does not move from her lane when walking down the sidewalk, a little purifying and a Scorpio. And so when for her to sort of shed the, like stylish fancy New Yorker facade, to say doggy. This is person. And so I got her the dog for her birthday. It turns out that I'm in hatred. Isn't that always how it goes? I'm like ambivalent about it. The dog's like, "I'm here to teach you something." - Yeah, he's rooted because when we come home, like even last night we came home from an event I had to do and she opened the door and she ran past her. - He's like, "Oh, okay, Spare." - I like Spare. (laughing) - And I'm almost like, stop. Like, "What are you doing, lady?" - Cool, cool. - Yeah. - Thank you, loves her too, thank you. - How sweet, I did have dogs growing up, but my black American household, it was very different. They lived outside, and outside is where they stayed, and they had kibble mixed with whatever our leftovers were that nobody was gonna eat, chicken, drippings, and things like that. So it's been very different to have this New York city inside dog, but a beautiful experience. So thank you for sharing that with me. I wanna get into some of the things you've written before, and maybe see how they tie into your life now, or if things have changed your approach to social media and fans, and what you have coming up in the pipeline. So back in 2019, you wrote about bad feminist, and said that you didn't wanna be put on a pedestal as a feminist or as anything, because when you're on a pedestal, you're frozen in time, you're not allowed to grow or fail or move, and you knew that you would inevitably disappoint anyone who, I think you said, saw fit to elevate me, which is a beautiful way of raising that. But, so you said, of course, people put me on a pedestal anyway, and inevitably you disappointed them, you disappointed yourself. Do you still feel that way about not wanting to be idolized or looked at as someone who is maybe better or should be held to higher standards than the average person? - Absolutely. Now, a lot of times people misinterpret that a bit, and feel like I'm trying to skirt responsibility or accountability, and that's not what I'm doing. I just seen that prominent public feminists tend to be held to an unrealistic standard, or a standard that they had no business, they had no part in creating. Now, you should hold me accountable for my decisions and for my values, 100%. But I am not positioning myself as the arbiter of who is or is not the right kind of feminist. That's not my ministry. - Right. - And so I want to be treated the way I treat people, which is to say, yes, please hold me accountable. I do make mistakes. But I'm not asking to be put on a pedestal or revered. I'm just a writer. That said, I recognize that with visibility and with some success, people do look up to you. That's inevitable. I can't change the way of the world. And so I'm not ignorant of the position that I have and I'm also not unwilling to bear the responsibilities that do come with visibility and with power. - Okay, 'cause I think that's where I agree with that and I think that because when my friend and I started to read 13 years ago and it sort of became this very quick sensation, it was very challenging for me to go from regular everyday person to someone that other people paid such close attention to. And it doesn't feel like a natural way of living. And at the same time, the pros outweigh the cons and so trying to learn to live with that attention on me has been something that has taken up a significant amount of time in therapy, trying to. And of course, so much of that ties back into childhood trauma and feeling like there was a spotlight on me and all of my mistakes. And so really wanted to shirk all of that in adulthood just to find myself back in a position where people are, it felt like people were ready to pounce. And sometimes that feeling sticks out more than the overwhelming amount of love and support and encouragement that also comes my way. It's just a sad fact of being human that those critical moments can really seem to stick out and affect us the most. - Well, yes, and the challenge and the sad thing is I hear the criticism far more than I ever hear what is disproportionately the praise or the support. - Right. But I hone in on that one person who hates me. That's so much, and it just hurts my soul. And part of it does actually go back to childhood. I was raised in a very strict household. That was the oldest daughter of immigrants. I did not have to do like for taking or anything like that. I will say I had emotionally mature parents and they were very active parents. I did not have to parent my younger brothers. I did have responsibilities toward them, but it wasn't that. It's that I was expected to be perfect. - Yes. - I had to get straight A's and not just straight A's, but like three day pluses. And A minus was not allowed. And so it was a lot of pressure. And in turn I learned how to put a lot of pressure on myself. And I am still trying to unravel myself from all of that and to recognize that I'm allowed to be human even though quite frankly I wasn't. And so when people criticize me and I take it badly, they assume it's because I am thin skinned, which maybe I am, but it's also a lot deeper. It has nothing to do with what you actually said and everything to do with my background and my personality and the way I am, like a people pleaser. I struggle to say no to my own detriment. And unfortunately when you are in the public eye as a black woman, and I'm curious if you found this to be the case, people expect you to be a never ending font of giving in generosity. - Yes. - They want your time, they want your attention. Random people straight up reach out and send me the Venmo request asking for money. - Oh yes. - And people I've never met. I'm not talking about friends, I'm not talking about family. You know, I'm talking about random people I will never meet. And you're always in this position where you look like a bitch if you say no, or you know, I get about anywhere from 10 to 40 blurb requests a week. - Oh yes, I bet you do. - I can't keep up with that because I actually do read the books I blurb. My name means something to me. - And so I have to say no, sometimes I get mentoring requests. I mentor as many people as humanly possible. But I also, you know, I have a family, I have my own work, I teach, I have a full time job. You know, it's so hard that people expect you to sort of be everything to be everyone. And then when you say no to one person, all of a sudden, you are the problem. You can't keep being the way that you think I've been weaponized to mean I'm not getting what I want. It is really something and a choice. And it's unfortunate because gatekeeping does exist. But you told no once in an industry where you're going to hear no all the time, that's not gatekeeping my friend. And so it's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure and it's hard. I mean, don't cry for me. I'll be fine, but it's also hard. - No, I agree. I love that you said my name means something to me because if I see a Roxanne Gabe blurb, I'm 100% more likely to buy that book. So I understand that you take the time to actually read all of them before you give this endorsement of a writer and there is no way you could possibly accommodate everyone who wants a piece of your energy or time. So it's not possible. And also like I really only want to blurb books I love. And fortunately I get a lot of amazing books. Like there are some really dope writers out there. And so if I endorse your work, I really do believe in it. And I really think it's wonderful. - Yeah, I understand the pressure of growing up and having to be perfect. My parents were both black Americans like I said who grew up in the 50s and 60s. They both have master's degrees. So they had these very high standards for us. College was not an option. It was more of where are you going? But are you going to college was never an option? It was never a question. And I mean, I remember very vividly in the fifth grade. The first time I got an 89 on a test, I was beaten ferociously for that. Like I was whipped for getting an 89 and I just will never forget those standards were so high for me. And so yes, now that I'm a public figure to some degree having those same or what felt so much like criticisms and unfair expectations for me. Initially, I definitely, I think I lashed out a lot at that not knowing where the real pain was coming from. But now that I've been through so much therapy, I've been to grad school to get my master's and mental health counseling. I do now feel like I embrace the imperfection. Almost like I have to, I have to for me because there's still a part of me to some degree that believes I should be this incredibly high achieving person who doesn't ever get it wrong. And that's an impossible standard to live up to. So now it's like, yeah, I am. actually going to mess up. If I get it wrong and I truly believe that, then it's not a problem for me to acknowledge that. But that has been a very long time coming. This idea of like, you know what? Yes. Fine. Sometimes you are just not going to like me. You're not going to agree with what I said. And that is not the same as me being wrong. But also if I am wrong, then I can be held accountable for that. I can answer for that. And so just trying to sort through all of those things. And again, tying it back to where it really comes from has been pivotal for me in trying to manage this career and this sort of very large audience that I didn't necessarily ask for. I feel like I kind of stumbled into it. And now it's like, well, what are you going to do with it? This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you could permanently delete one thing from your brain, what would it be? This might sound kind of silly and in the grand scheme of my life, it probably is. But I did have a failed romantic encounter earlier this year that really triggered me in like my deepest places. And it's been harder than I thought it would to bounce back from that. I let it take up way too much mental space for way too long before I finally just broke past the shame and talked to my therapist about it. And I'm very glad I did because now I'm definitely moving on and feeling better. But it was quite the emotional journey to get here. If you've been thinking about starting therapy, consider BetterHelp. They have thousands of licensed experienced professionals who can help you work through whatever may be holding you back. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you. All you have to do is complete a short questionnaire to help them identify your needs and preferences so you can get right to the work of focusing on your therapy goals. But if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. BetterHelp is now in network with more than 125 health plans with many co-pays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the U.S., you can still get 10% off your first month. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/crystal. That's [email protected]/cissle. This year I've been really fortunate to spend a lot of time with the people I love, including a few group trips around the country to just hang out and enjoy being around each other. My friends and family mean everything to me, and that's why I have a life insurance policy in place to take care of my final expenses. Things are so overwhelming when a loved one passes away, and I want mine to have one less thing to concern themselves with when that time comes. With policy genius, I was able to find a plan that fits my needs by allowing me to compare quotes from top insurers side by side before I made a decision. Policy genius has a licensed team ready to help you get what you need quickly, so you can get back to doing the things that matter with the people you cherish. They were able to help me with paperwork and answered all the questions I had throughout the entire process, making it really smooth and seamless for me. Make a smart move today to help protect their tomorrow. With policy genius, you can see if you can find 20-year life insurance policies starting at just $276 a year for one million dollars in coverage. Head to policygenius.com to compare quotes now. That's policygenius.com. And you know, when you're kind of as a creative person dreaming about what you want for yourself, for me, I dreamt that I could write a book that people might read. That genuinely was the extent of my dream because I did not know what more to dream for. I had no idea. Again, with people online, there are a lot of conspiracy theories, "Oh, you have to know someone in publishing and yadda-yadda." I wrote from the Midwest. I was just online googling, "How do I find an agent?" And then I followed those instructions and got an agent. In some ways, it's complicated, but it's also not. It's just like that's just how it is. And so I didn't have any magical connections. And while I certainly had professional parents, I did not know any writers. I didn't know anyone who knew any writers. So there was no sort of model for what to expect, what to want, et cetera. And so I just focused on, "Man, I hope I write something good." And I hope a few people read it. And so everything that has come since has been wonderful, but a little overwhelming, because I just had no idea what to ask for. And what to expect. There's no roadmap for this when you don't come from a family or a community that understands writing can possibly be or creativity of any kind, can possibly be a career. Yes. There's some learning curve there. And I'm glad to be able to navigate that learning curve, but when people just assume it's just like all predestined, et cetera. It's like, "No, no, no. We're all figuring it out." Especially I think when you are a woman of color and a black woman in particular. Right. How long did it take your parents to come around to the idea of you writing as a career? How old am I? No. I will say, they'd never discouraged me from writing. They always just told me, "You can have that little passion of yours while you become a lawyer, Dr. Engineer." Right. And even when I was getting my PhD, they were like, "I don't know." Are you going to go to medical school after this? Oh, like, are you? So it was really when one on-time, when an on-time state came out and I was profiled in Time magazine, which was still a print magazine at that time. Actually, I don't know if it still is, but that's when it became real to them. But also they could go to Barnes and Noble. And my dad left me like, he arranged a stock in Barnes and Noble very gently, very gently, but just made books or outward facing. And that for them made them realize, "Oh, she might actually make a go of this writing thing." And from then on, they've been, for the past 12 years, it's been nothing but support. I love that. Wonderful. The idea of like, "Sure, you can write while you go do something real." That is so common for us. I feel like black people are just like, we have this image, especially in this country. It's like, you have to do something that we consider to be an actual measure of success in like a capitalist, in a capitalist sense, and something that we feel like we can brag to the other family members about or something can show off about you. And it was the same for me, creative endeavors. It was like, "Yes, do that." Like, I played the piano. My parents invested in private, a private piano tutor for me, but that was because the piano was supposed to make me smarter. It was supposed to make my college applications look better. It wasn't because we want you to love music and-- Right, it wasn't about that. Right. For music. For sure. Yes. Which is always so funny. So you don't want me to just develop a passion or a skill for music. No, no, no. I work creative and well-rounded person. No, no. You want me to just, okay, got it. This is going to help you in other ways, right? And that is what we're most concerned with. It feels good to sort of break that cycle with them myself and get into doing things just for the fun of it and allowing myself the process of growing and not automatically being good at something. I don't know if you share this experience, but I have definitely been the sort of person where if I don't get it right the first time, or if I don't feel like I knock it out of the park, then that's over. That's shocked. The rap, I tried. Move on to the next. Move on to the next. Which is why it's weird that I'm a writer, because you rarely get it right the first time. That's a writer. My goodness. Oh, the very first time I was published in, oh, God, forgive me. I don't remember if it was Ebony or Essence, but I wrote a short essay and I just thought before I sent this off to my editor that she was going to be like, wow, 10/10, no notes. When I actually went through the editing process, I was like, excuse me. I was like, but I'm good at this. How can I believe that? And we had to, I was like, oh, this is a collaborative process. I have to work with you and you are pushing me to be a better writer and make this a better piece. I thought whatever I did was, whatever I wrote was perfect as soon as I wrote it. I went back through it. I thought it was great. What do you mean? Yes. Yes. And I wish more young writers understood that because, you know, I firmly believe in in my experience. Editors do still edit, but a lot of times people's work is just passed right through or when they get edits, when younger writers get edits, they do get in their feelings and then don't know what to do beyond that. And I really always want to implore to them that it is a process and that you are lucky when someone takes the time to edit you and keep you from showing your ass in public. And then I want people to make the work better, [BLANK_AUDIO] always be made better and even though people who never seem to believe this when I first share it, I rarely say no to an edit. I think two or three times at this point in a very long career, have I said no to an edit? And I was right, but for the other 2,000 times I've said yes to the edits, it's because it really forced me to take a step back and really reconsider and ask myself, okay, what does the piece really need? It's not about ego at that point. It's about the work. And I think those of us who have been fortunate enough to have people invested in the work with us really do get to allow our work to grow. Yes. Yes, the finished product that was actually published in the magazine was so much better than my first draft. And I was very grateful for that experience after I went through it. But I definitely initially was like, I'm not used to anyone telling me that my work needs more work. Like this was, it was kind of frightening at first to be challenged in that way, but ultimately it made the piece much better. I was something I'm so proud of to this day. But yeah, I think you're right, especially in this age of internet publishing and internet publications and how the standards for that have shifted so much. And we find more and more publications that used to feel more respected or kind of playing the social media game. It feels like, you know, they're just looking for clicks and not always getting things right. And of course, you know, you have to pay editors, especially good ones. And so when you can just cut that out entirely and tell somebody, hey, you know, make it an opinion, think piece with maybe a couple of facts thrown in and we'll just put it up on the website. You really don't get the opportunity to be challenged in your craft and so you don't grow in it, I think. And you know, it's interesting is also sometimes there is a racism component to it where white editors are afraid to edit black writers because they don't want to seem racist. And like they did just let the work through, which does us all of the service. Yes. And it's hard to even talk about, but at the same time, it's like, do your job. Oh, yes. Like black people are, if you think you're little edits are going to email someone who lives with racism every single day in a racist world, you really think too highly of yourself. Is that the guy that meds? Please do. And you know, I think for me, it made me understand that editing is not just grammar and syntax and punctuation. There is a, there's another component here and it made me realize like, oh, I'm good for like, this is a run on sentence. This is a spelling error. You can say this more clearly. I'm not the editor who can look at your work and figure out how to make it better per say. I can just do sort of the red pin corrections. Yeah. And that's fine. That's, I'm, I'm, I'm perfectly happy to be, you know, a part-time writer with a blog that I update once a year and and focus on other things instead. So you have written so much about very many topics, feminism and body image and trauma and sexual assault things along this nature. Has it been a cost that has felt at times too much emotionally or personally to be so honest in your work? No, but that's because I have always had firm boundaries over that honestly. Like, I always try to protect myself by making sure I have clear boundaries. And so if I'm putting something into the public sphere, then I am very clear that I don't have control over it. I don't have control over how other people engage with it. And that's challenging. But I, like, it can be scary. It can be difficult, et cetera. But because I thought carefully about what I'm willing to subject myself to and what I'm not, it's easier. That makes it easier. But I also have a range of coping mechanisms because it is hard. And so I genuinely tell myself like, "Well, don't worry. Nobody's going to read it." They're just not. Oh, I do it myself. I was going to say, is this a delusion? Yeah. We're just flying to ourselves now because you aren't going to be. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm lying to myself. It's okay. No one's going to read it. Frankly, sometimes that actually ends up being the case. But nobody saw that. Oh, man. So how do you end up navigating different relationships, friendships, business relationships, love, community while protecting these boundaries? A lot of therapy, man. Honestly, it takes a lot of work because I'm a people pleaser because I'm terrible at saying no. And also, it did take marrying someone who does not have a single problem saying no, who is very protective and has helped me in ways I could have never imagined to develop stronger boundaries where sometimes she's like, "No, you're not doing that." And it's not in a way that's controlling. I always recognize when she does that, that she has my best interest in heart because she always asks me, "Do you want to do that? Or do you feel obligated to?" And really pausing and asking myself those questions helps. But I also feel like I'm a fairly kind person and a fairly generous person. And I'm actually not trying to change that. And so I just try to recognize that being kind and generous does not mean that people get to take advantage of you. And it doesn't mean that you are unkind or ungenerous by telling people, "No, sometimes." And that's the thing that I really work to try and remind. And it's an ongoing process. But that's the thing I really have to remind myself of. Like, first of all, nobody's going to love you or really care about you because you give them what they want. They're just going to recognize that they can get more. And so I, and that for me, has been very eye-opening and very sad to realize. And like, when I look at my younger self and the ways in which I have allowed myself to be used and taken advantage of, like, I feel a lot of shame around it because like, "Girl, what were you doing? You're not going to find love there." And you're not going to find respect or caring there. People are not going to be like suddenly grateful because you help them out. And like, what are you really trying to get? Like, you're trying to clearly fill some sort of deep emotional need. Like, go fill that elsewhere. And, and, you know, again, it's a work in progress. I'm still, it's still challenging. But I, the older I get, the more I recognize, I have every right to say no. I don't have to say it to say yes to every single request. If I said yes to every single request, I would lose my mind. Right. And you deserve to put yourself first. You don't exist in, to serve others. Yes. And that, I mean, that's no hard to me to internalize. But yes. And, and, you know, based off the way you've spoken about your childhood, I can see why, because you grow up with this idea that like, you're supposed to be perfect and quite literally anything less than perfection is unacceptable. So it can be very hard to break those things within ourselves. But when we get to that place of learning to advocate for ourselves, and I love that your wife is so supportive in this way. It sounds like she's sort of really been that, that aspect of your personality that you've needed help with emboldening is like, yes, you, not only are you allowed to say no, you should say no. There are times that you absolutely should protect yourself and what you want. Or, I mean, sometimes it's not even that serious. Sometimes it's just I don't really want to do this. And so I'm not going to overextend myself. And that, I'm really trying to like, really internalize. Like, why I sometimes find myself doing like six or seven events in a week. And I just ask myself, why are you running yourself ragged like this? When do you plan on finishing the very, very late books that you need to finish? This is not going to get that work done. That's like where I am right now, where I was like, girl, if you do one more of this work, you know, like get your ass to the desk. Oh, it's someone emailing Roxanne Gay looking for another update of a draft. And she has every right and reason to like the font of patients that my editor, my book editors have. That's how I know, like, I probably do spell some books. 'Cause, yes, they are colorating books. (laughs) Nobody else would tolerate. And I feel really bad about it. But I did have some legit reasons to be very delayed with my books. Some very unexpected things happened in my personal life. And just completely threw me off my game for years because my whole world changed overnight. And so, I have been just trying to get back to some semblance of productivity and it is, it's a job. - Yes, yes it is. And I, I think is very important to remember that when you are at the top of your game, when you are elite at what you do, people have a lot more grace and patience for you when you maybe don't make deadlines. Because they do. - You're one of the greats. So, they know that when you get to the place where you're ready to be productive in that way and the drafts are coming in and the writing processes is fully underway, they know that they're going to have an excellent product at the end. So, you know, brand new writers looking to break into the industry can't play around like this, but you have earned that. - Yes, I always tell the underwriters I work with, like, don't, (laughs) don't, don't, don't write checks. You don't have money in the paper early. (laughs) But that deadline does move from thing. They do want it and they do, they do. - Yes, they do. - Right, don't play yourself. - Yes. - And it's very interesting to sometimes see the ways in which people can sabotage themselves a bit. - And I always really want them to, just not, don't do this. It's not necessary, it's not, it is not at all. Just don't sabotage yourself. It's okay to just not sabotage yourself. - Well, you have written very extensively about some deeply, deeply personal matters, especially in relation to being in a larger body, the way that other people treat you, the way that it was a very conscious decision for you as a child to deliberately gain weight in an effort to protect yourself from predators and people who would mean to do you harm and just the ways that you've been treated because of the size of your body, the ways that fat phobia affect us all as a society. And I, you know, for a while, I thought we were really making progress. And then I don't know if it was the pandemic or what, but now it seems like we are really in a backslide as far as like not even body positivity, but just understanding that there are billions of humans who have existed for hundreds of thousands of years and so there is going to be variation in our bodies. It's almost like that is just an unacceptable reality for so many people like we are all supposed to look one certain way. But anyway, so my point being you've connected with countless people by being so honest and real about fat phobia. Do you feel any sort of responsibility to, and not just fat phobia, but that's the, I'm thinking of that specifically because like I said, hunger was, I mean, I was so profoundly moved by that number. So I mean, it's truly incredible. This is why you can take your time and miss all your deadlines because you've done bad feminist and hunger and so many other things. But yes, I know that there are countless people who see themselves in you. Do you feel any sort of responsibility to those people? How do you manage that? I mean, I feel the responsibility to continue to write well, to write honestly, and to do the best I can at the time with the skills that I have. And I totally understand that people have emotional connections to my work. And I do feel a responsibility to make sure that I act with integrity. But I also recognize that just because someone has an emotional connection to my work does not mean that I know them or that they know me. And unfortunately with memoir, not unfortunately, but one of the challenges of memoir is that people do think that they know you. And they want to be your best friend. And I'm like, I'm a terrible communicator. But I don't know that you know what I'm talking about. I would never text you back. Like, aim higher. And so I don't-- Especially I used to, but I'm getting better about it. I don't feel like I have to-- You know, they feel a bond because they've read the book but when people come up to me, I don't know you at all. And so what I do, and I love meeting my readers. They're such lovely and in general warm and generous people. I am absolutely open to it. I run into people. I get recognized every time I leave my house, which is weird as a writer. It's not supposed to happen. But it does. And I think it's partly because I'm tall. I'm fat. I have tattoos. I'm easily recognizable in a way where you're not going to necessarily be like, ooh, Jonathan Hanson, hi. So not to say I'm on his level. But that's just the sort of writer-looking guy that I can imagine that you wouldn't necessarily be able to pick out of a crowd if he wasn't wearing his glasses. And so I always try to be present when I can sometimes-- I'm just like, oh, you know, my wife and I are on a date. So it's really nice to meet you. But I can talk for an hour here. Just try to have boundaries. But I always try to be receptive polite. But when you write about, for example, sexual assault, people tend to want to tell you about their own. And oh, yes. I respect that, for sure. But I can't hear that all the time, especially if I'm out and about then having fun and someone wants to be like, I've been through with what you've been through. And then proceed to give me all the gory details. That's a lot. And it's important to always clarify, like, I'm a writer. I'm not a therapist. I'm not your therapist. Yes. And because you can do real harm, there are people who do harm, who do take advantage of the vulnerabilities that people are willing to share with them. I'm not putting myself in that position. But more importantly, I'm not putting them in that position. I hear that you have this emotional need. I hear why you feel connected to me. And I honor that. But I also know that I can't heal whatever would that needs healing. So I always try to point people in the right direction if they really do seem to need help. And I always try to listen. And then I also try to be very clear that, OK, this is great. And there's someone waiting behind you. And so yes, this is a book signing event. And then I have the most wonderful readers. I have to say I don't really run into a lot of emotional vampirism. I do encounter quite a lot of enthusiasm. I find very flattering and very harming. People bring me little gifts sometimes, which is absolutely not necessary. They give me their book, which I don't mind. I can't promise I'm going to get to it. But I don't mind. I do recognize the kindness of that. And so there's a lot of responsibility and pressure there. But I'm fortunate enough to have really great readers, who also, I think most of the time, I've read the book. And so have it some sense of what the boundaries are. No, I don't want hugs. Even though people do love to test that. Can I get a hug? Did you not read the chapter? Right. Do you love the hug? Do you get a hug? You know, I used to struggle to say no. But now I'm very good at it. And I shake hands, which is a really good talk to that. I do shake hands. Yeah, like shake it up. Yeah, that's very generous. Because since 2020, I'm like, I feel like no touching. Let's just not touch. Share. There's so many germs. It's a lot. It is a germine field out there, especially with someone like hacking up a lung. And I always just think, oh, you're like, bless your heart, dear. But that makes me feel 100 years old. Let's work on it. Let's share who you like. Right. Get thee to thy bed. I experienced some of that same emotional vampirism. I love that phrase. Because I started being very forthcoming about my journey in therapy and some of the things I had to learn growing up with two emotionally immature parents, whose emotional immaturity manifested in different ways through their parenting or lack thereof. And so being open about that is kind of rare. I think it's becoming more popular. but talking about it. freely on a large platform has really opened up and then going to grad school and being a student therapist. So there was like a time that I literally was somebody's therapist and helping them work through these things and then graduating it was like what am I going to do with all this because I it was a great concern that I would be recognized in my internship because I worked almost exclusively with black women and so I knew I didn't want to go into private practice but I also knew that like what I had learned in school and in therapy was something that could benefit so many other people and also people were constantly coming to me with like their trauma, their issues with their pairs of oh my dad's an asshole too and my mom did this and that and so that's sort of where the idea for this show came from which was like let me find a way to help people with the things I know while still drawing a very clear boundary of like I am not a therapist I'm not your therapist I have this degree and so I can listen to your story and give you some advice but with the protections of these cameras these microphones you know there's no expectation of like an ongoing relationship between us and everybody's very clear about what this really is like this is ultimately a podcast this is not you know a therapy center but trying to find that balance in all these different ways has been it's been a challenge but one that I have embraced because it does feel like you know it's when I'm at a party and I've had three Vaca sodas is that is really not the time to come up to me and say my mother was also emotionally neglectful like like babe you know I'm trying to party right now but I do want to create that space where we can talk about it because people are hurting people are in need and therapy is not accessible to everyone I saw you posted on threads that you are paying an exorbitant amount of money to see your therapist per hour and I am too not as much as you are but I'm paying a lot to see my therapist she does not accept the insurance and so I wanted to find a way to like bring all these things together do something to help but also still maintain my my privacy and my ability to just be a person who exists in the world yeah you know therapy is probably my biggest expense other than my mortgage um but I do get reimbursement from insurance oh nice for like 85% of it oh nice so but fighting it's a fight like it's a fight it's just a fight oh yes you know I find what my insurance's prices are I want my my my therapist prices are I watering when she told me her price I was just like all right she's on your bag of girl I know that's right but it's also the first time I've had a woman of color as a therapist oh okay I've always had white therapists before not by choice just by I guess it is a choice in a sense but I also was living in like very rural places etc this was largely before telehealth and so she's not black but she is a woman of color and I would love a black therapist but I am gonna ride it out with my current therapist for now because for the first time and I've been in therapy often on since I was 14 or 15 I feel like I'm making progress she's very matter of fact also I'll play a little game with myself like can I make her laugh if I make her laugh if I went there before the day which is always nice and so I you know she's in great demand she charges what she charges you know she's a Manhattan therapist the prices and that are fucking extra they just big city prices are are real they're real and I mean you can also find therapists for like a hundred fifty dollars now or a hundred dollars now and I think they're just as good there's not I don't think price is a commensurate with ability I think everyone prices themselves as they see fit and she's more established etc etc it doesn't matter I don't care about her pricing because I can afford it and I don't take that for granted but I do know that that one hour a week allows me to unpack my bullshit with someone who is willing to push back you know oftentimes when you have when you're I'm never smarter than a therapist but sometimes when you're smart you know how to like talk in therapy where you're not really getting at anything useful or important this is the first time I've been able to get pushed back from my nonsense and my sort of rationalizing where I'm actually feeling like I'm doing real work I would pay twice what I'm paying for that that is a marker of a very skilled therapist like she's very she'll just like look over her little cup of tea or coffee that she's generally meet over zoom and she'll just be like um that I'm like see this is why you gotta do it a person of color that's right here does she know about your little game to try to make her laugh no she might now I was gonna say because that doesn't look like a stable case there but I'd consider snickering her laughing and I'm like yes all right we're gonna wrap this up I'm gonna try five oh nice yes that that does sound like classic people please her baby or so yeah it all it all tracks thank you thank you thank you thank you no worries drk have there been moments where you wish that um you kept something for yourself that you shared with the whole world you're like oh god and hindsight why did I do that no I've I'm terrible at boundaries in my real life but not my real life but my like day to day life but in my career at least in this sort of iteration of it in the past 15 years the one thing I'm very proud of is that I have not said anything public oh you know what there is one thing I did but it was on Twitter so it doesn't matter oh yeah that's that's dead yeah um but it wouldn't hurt me it was a joke that I made I made a few dumb jokes that people with bad intentions then ran with and meamed for years and so like I regret those sort of like haha I'm just making a joke things like I made a joke I had taken my niece to McDonald's which was my first mistake to say out loud but sorry it's like happy meals and she's tiny it's fine right gymnast what's gonna be okay and she wanted some little toy that they were doing and a young person at the drive-through um said something like thank you maim or whatever and I moved on and finished but on Twitter I made a joke about how I then proceeded to tell the young McDonald's employee about how gender is a construct oh my goodness it was like this is why fast food people aren't being paid enough you're claxidist you're elitist and it's gone on for years like this has been going on now for about 14 years from this and it was a joke like guys do you really think that I think that I'm gonna like have a meaningful conversation with someone who's just trying to get through their eight hour shift right like probably the unhappiest place on earth like the fact that people never give you the benefit of the doubt yes always assume the worst yes so I after I that was humbling and like it's like yes I hear all the feedback I hear the criticism but like I really did this was a joke it really really was a joke come on and so that is something that I I can't even believe I still think about it but the level of harassment I got for it was so profound that I was just like that was a mistake that was a mistake right my first thought is that you know fat people are never allowed to even mention the fact that McDonald's is that was the other thing and I thought that she got a McDonald's and think as I actually I enjoy food but I don't actually eat fast food and it's not like a moral thing or anything but like in New York you don't need to like I'm sorry but chirping chicken is right there like I mean you'd have to go to like Times Square like no and even in LA like it's just no there's tacos everywhere I'm good and so it made me ex it like it just made me feel so vulnerable and so like oh my god I didn't For a moment, I forgot that I'm a big fat person. - Right. - How dare I talk about food? And I was like, "I wasn't even there for me." I was talking with a poor piece of chicken nugget. Jesus Christ. - Oh my goodness. Yes, it's like, I live in New York. My version of fast food is halal poppy. And you know, like, I can go to the bodega and get something on a hero before I, you know-- - Rister, the bodega is literally 30 yards away. And the bodega around the corner is actually really cute. And you can get whatever. They have a hot cold counter that is just really pristine. - Yeah. - So it's fine. - Yeah. - Come on. - I, hmm, I, I, that's sort of, you know, feeling like there's, you're never, or that you're rarely extended the benefit of the doubt that people are always assuming the worst. I find that to be a key tenant of my experience with social media. And of course, through my education and my work in therapy, I've been able to tie that back to childhood, like so many other things, where it's like, yeah, I was, it was always assumed that I was wrong somehow. Or like, let's figure out what you did wrong. Let's, let's examine how you could have done things differently before we can move on or discuss how maybe people are overreacting or doing too much. Like, do you find that there's any sort of loneliness associated with that, that feeling or that experience? - There's a lot of loneliness there. Because I first started going on social media because I was living in very rural places. And I was kind of like the only black person at my institution or in my department, both as a graduate student and as a faculty member. And that is incredibly isolating. Even though I'm from Omaha, Nebraska, and I've never, until my now living in LA in New York, this is the first time in my life, especially in LA, where I see black people every day. And that's sad to say, but it's also like, for me, it's a joy, like, every day. And you see black people from every walk of life. And every milieu. And that, for me, is like joy, just like I see people who look like me. We're not all the same. We don't need to all love each other, but we fit to be in community. And in LA, in particular, it is so vibrant. And so just like driving through Inglewood on a beautiful day with the windows down, like you see everything. I find it to be just a kick. And so I was kind of looking for that when I was on social media, looking for connection. And as a writer, I was even further isolated. And at the time, I was significantly larger, so I felt a little more physically isolated. And so being online allowed me to have the sense of socializing and being part of the world without being part of the world. And so in many ways, I still, when I go online, I think of myself as that girl who had 200 followers and was just talking about yogurt all day. - Right. - You know, and my wife often has to tell me, like, Rex, and you have hundreds of thousands of followers tell, like you're not the, it's not the same. - It's very famous. - Yeah, you're not the like, disassociate that. - And so that has been the hardest transition is recognizing it's not the same. Even though I oftentimes still interact online the same, as I always did, a little sharp at times, a little punchy, but in general, just sort of like, wow, life is kind of amazing. Look at that flower. And to never be given the benefit of the doubt is hard because I was never given the benefit of the doubt. - Right. - So yeah, it's very lonely, it's very lonely. And if, you know, when Twitter started decompensating and I found that my mental health was being profoundly affected, Debbie was just like, you are spending way too much time on social media. And I was like, "No, I'm not." She was right, of course. (laughing) But I just realized, why am I on Twitter? It makes me unhappy. People are so mean to me on this platform. Every mistake I've ever made, they sent me a screenshot. And it just made me so unhappy. So I just deleted, not, I left the account up, but I deleted all my tweets. I just quit Twitter. I've never looked back with the best decision I ever made in terms of how I put myself out in the world because it's just too toxic. And so now I have a more of a remove. I'm still very much online, but I'm not as accessible. I'm certainly not spending nearly as much time online. And it is helpful to just realize, like, there's a whole world out there. And also, you could just read a book. (laughing) All that I've spent on social media is reading, but you could read a book. - Yes. - And a book you've been talking about back. - Yes. And, you know, I think there's a big difference in Twitter before it was sold to who owns it now. And now it is now. For me, first of all, if you want the Twitter experience, there's Blue Sky, there's Threads, there's Spill. You know, you can get a Twitter like experience. - Oh, absolutely. I'm on Blue Sky. - Which I enjoy. And I've been on Threads, but I've been actively posting on Threads now for a couple of months. - Threads is interesting. (laughing) Well, you know, it's Instagram's Twitter, so. (laughing) It's Meta's Twitter, so do that with a giant grain of salt. But for me, I really felt like if I can just use the words that accurately represent how I feel and I communicate clearly and I make sure that I'm making it ever to do that, then surely people will read the words as I've written them and they won't filter them through their own experiences and judgments and whatever else they'll take it as it is because I'm making the effort to communicate clearly. And I tried that maybe for a couple of years. And it was so frustrating to me every time I would articulate something exactly the way I meant it. And people would still misunderstand. It enraged me, it was like, I don't understand. How can I get you all to stop behaving this way? And eventually I realized like, oh, you can do this for the rest of your life and still people are going to take what you say and do with it whatever they want. And so are you going to keep putting that effort into it? Are you going to accept the fact that this is how it is and change the way you engage online? So that was what really shifted my relationship. I too spend much less time online than I used to. But it was like, this is, I'm snapping at people for something that is always going to happen. And I just don't want to keep doing this. - That was one of the key things that pushed me off Twitter. I realized that I, and I wrote about it a little bit in an essay, you know, like seeing everything as a nail and being a hammer, like even people who are actually engaging with me with good intentions and in good faith, I was being unkind. And I didn't like how mean I was becoming and how brittle I was becoming and anyone who knows me in my day-to-day life knows I'm just not mean. And so I just got to ask myself, like, is this how you want people to know you? Is this how you want to know yourself? Because it doesn't, I mean, clapping back is fun. Yes, and, but not everyone deserves it. - Right. - People are just either clueless or they're not nearly as online as you, or they didn't realize that you had been dealing with nonsense all day and they stepped on the wrong map. - Right. - And so I wanted people to engage with me in good faith, but I also realized I'm not engaging with anyone in good faith either. It goes by way. - Right. - And I was going to change faster than the internet. It's going to change. - Yes. Oh my God. Yes. - And that's saying something because it takes me a minute to change, but I had to understand that they were, I'm both never going to get what I wanted from these people, which is to like be truly understood, to be listened to, to have them like sort of set aside preconceived notions and like actually engage with what I'm actually saying and rather than like some weird perceptions, et cetera, et cetera. And Debbie, again, was like, they're not your friends. Like you have my friends. Why don't you reach out to Jackie? Why don't you reach out to, you know, Alexandra, et cetera. And she, you know, she had to really help me see and I guess it takes someone who's with you day in and day out and understands you like, you know, you say you're lonely, but like you're lonely because you don't ever talk to anyone in your real life. You're just like sitting here, typing into your phone and it was like, rude. (laughing) But you're right. (laughing) Right. It's the sort of thing where you don't realize, you know, turning to social media to fix loneliness is like eating skittles and cotton candy because you're starving. (laughing) This is maybe going to, in the immediate, take care of what you think the issue is, [BLANK_AUDIO] your longer-term problem is going to actually be made worse. - Yeah. - That's the decision. - It absolutely is. And I'm still actually dealing with that. I'm still trying to figure that part out and recognizing, you know, because I love my friends and I love hanging out with people, but I have this, and this is like one of the top five things I work on in therapy. I am afraid to reach out to people to say, hey, do you wanna hang out? Because I don't wanna like bother them. And so I always just figure if someone wants to hang out with me, then they'll reach out. And so then the complete, not the complete, but I know that the frustration for my friends is like, it's all one sided. But the minute they reach out, like I'm right there, like a little puppy, like yeah, let's go. What are we gonna do? And so one of the things I've been working on over the past few months is trying to like reach out. W will be like, why don't you reach out to Kirsten and see if she wants to do something with you? And it's like, why am I 51? And just now learning how to like have friends. But we get to it when we get to it. No shade, no shade. (Kirsten laughs) That's from this challenging. So like a lot of my friends think, like, oh, she never reaches out. And it's like, that's not it. That's not it. I just have this like paralyzing fear. I guess of rejection ultimately. But it's rough. And so they got social media at least. There's just 100,000 strangers just sitting around waiting to shoot the shit. - Oh yeah. Can't wait to hear from you specifically. They can't wait. They want to hear what you have to say. But yes, I agree. It sounds like a deep fear of being rejected coupled with our very human need for connection. And so you can really end up in a place that's very isolating and lonely when those two things are kind of budding heads with one another. - Okay, I don't wanna take up too much more of your time. This has been such an incredible conversation with you. You said that your next book is coming out next year, 2027 allegedly maybe. - Allegedly. (Kirsten laughs) - Allegedly, I have two votes coming out next year. - Oh, okay. Can you tell us a little about those? - Yes, what is called how to be heard? It's coming out from Harper. It's a book of writing advice. And it's partly amazingly, yeah, I'm excited about it. It's like mostly practical writing advice because one of the key things I remember when I was starting out as a writer is that I would always just either go to the library to do research because I'm 51. Or when Google came around, I would Google like, how do I write a book review? And there were rarely any answers. And so I want to write a book that answers a lot of the questions I had in earlier in my writing career. Because the enlamots of the world who I love, I'm not that person who's going to write some deep profound meditation about art and writing and the stuff. I'm just like, I'm going to just tell you how to do it. And then also it's in part some of that more philosophical approach about how to use your voice, how to be heard, how to put yourself into the world. And so I have to finish that up kind of like this week, kind of like this week. I don't know. I don't know. That's a glass a week last year. And then another book that should come out next year is a romance novel that I am writing with a little known actor named Scanning Tatum. And I'm screaming. What? Yes. Yes. It's a long story. It's a project that's been gestating for many years. Again, my brother died in 2018. It was very unexpected. And it completely blew up our family. Not blew up because we all actually got much closer. But in the immediate head to children. Oh, yes. And so like there were just things that had to be handled. And it just blew up our life. And at the time my mom had cancer. It's been a really bad time. And so and then my mom having cancer. And then she died last year. And so for five years, I was dealing with all of this. And my family, fortunately, I wasn't like the only one. We were all in it together, helping each other, being there for my mom and my dad. And so frankly, writing was absolutely not even secondary but tertiary. It was just like, yes, this matters. This is how I make a living. But my mom is on the clock. Joel's gone. The kids need things. So that became the focus. And so now I'm finally coming up for air and able to somewhat think again. Also, menopause don't recommend it. And so I'm writing this fun sexy romance novel with my little crush. I mean, my first thought is like a magic mic. Romance, no, this is probably unfair box to put Channing Tatum in. But that was my very first thought. Like, what are we doing here? I cannot wait to see how this goes down to you. And it's about two lifelong friends or adult lifelong since college who turned 40 and realized they had made a pact early in their 20s about if we're still single one more 40, let's get married. But they actually do. And then they fall in love. Oh, yeah, because you always see people who make the pact but then they meet the one true one. Right. We'll actually follow through on the pact. OK. Like, there's a lot of sex in it. Oh, amazing. That's it. It's a tough dick. I have to write about sex with Channing Tatum. Oh, nice. That's right. Of burdens on my goodness. He smells like a pine forest. Of course he does. Of course he does. Well, of course, I don't know him, but he seems very charming and very easy to look at. So this sounds like a very kind. I have to say, oh, I love that. In my experience, I, you know, we're not like best friends or anything, but we get along quite well. And for me, anyway, he has been incredibly generous and kind and charming. So either he's just that good of an actor, or he's a really-- Or he's that person. Yeah, he really is a great person. Oh, my goodness. Well, I eagerly anticipate those releases. I'm sure, because I see you most commonly responding to writers and people who are aspiring for writing careers. I am sure that this book with the practical writing advice is going to be hotly anticipated by the masses. So I, congratulations. Of course, you know, I just-- I feel the need to remind you that you are the Roxanne Gay. I needed that reminder. Thank you. Yes, so yes, the people are very much looking forward to them. Dr. Gay, thank you so much for sharing your time with me today. Can you please tell the audience where they can-- where they can find you as if they do not already know? Oh, well, yeah, I have a website, Roxanne, with 1N, Roxanne Gay.com. And I'm on Blue Sky as Roxanne Gay. And I'm on Instagram/threads as Roxanne Gay 7.4. And in the next couple months, a film version of Hunger will be on your television on Lifetime. So please, hi out. Oh, hey, I will be clearing my calendar. I told you, hunger, is that girl for me? Like, one of my top books of all time. So, oh, wow, I can't-- sorry, I'm losing it a little bit here, but I cannot wait to see that. Oh, my goodness, such a powerful work. I'm eager to see how that has been translated for a film. Yeah, I'm just-- No, I'm not going to say me too. I wrote it. Sorry, no, it's not. I've seen the final cut. You're like, no, it's good. It's not so hard. It's OK. I mean, it's a challenging book to adapt. And, you know, Lifetime or slash a TV movie has 9x, because you have to create space for the commercials. And so figuring out how to divide the story into 9x, but make it feel like all part of the same story was much more challenging than I would have guessed. But I did the best I could with the skills I had at the time. And your best and your skills are phenomenal. So, thank you, Chris. We will-- We will. We will. Thank you, again. That is going to wrap up this week's episode of Crystals Catch. Follow us online at Crystals Catch. And if you have a question for me, please send me an email. [email protected]. We'll see you next week.