Series 2 - Episode 3 - Kitchen Design Masterclass with Joanne Layzell of Mazon Interiors

(gentle music) Welcome to a very special episode of All About Design, and I'm really excited to welcome Joanne Lezel from Maison Interior's Specialist in Kitchen Design, Bathrooms, Bedrooms, and very high-end projects. They've recently opened an amazing showroom in Lemton's Spa, so if you're on the area, do go along and see it. When you're designing your kitchen, it is one of the key areas in your home that you can really get into a muddle with, that you can spend many thousands of pounds on it, and it's easy to get it wrong. So I really wanted to come along to talk us through how she approaches it, the big things to avoid, what's happening in Kitchen Design, what's new. So when you make those big decisions, you won't get it wrong. Welcome, Joanne, and can you tell us how you got into doing the job you do today? Absolutely, thanks for having me. So I learned on Squared Paper with my dad, I'm a how to design. He built his own home, and he was a very clever farmer who was always designing things on Squared Paper. So he really got me to see spaces from above, which is the way I always imagine everything. I could plan. Exactly. And I didn't realise that the time that I ever wanted to thought like that. And then years of travel took me to Brighton, Hove, actually. And I was in a really fortunate position where I was able to go and study at the KLC School of Design in Chelsea, which was an amazing opportunity. I did an interior design course there. I came away, and I loved the interior design side a bit, but I really enjoyed the furniture building side. So the cabinetry, the more physical build stuff. So that was kind of a realisation that maybe interior design taking it to the end wasn't for me. I bought my first property. I flipped it quite quickly, made some money, purchased another one. And what I realised was the kitchen, the bathrooms, the decor, it was really from those things that the property value are. Yeah. Because it is such an investment. If you do go the extra little bit with those spaces, it just changes the property. And then fast forward to Birmingham, nine years ago, I thought it's now or never. And took a leap of faith, started on the kitchen design side of things, because I was having my kitchen done. And the designer said, "Of course, he just found out." I'd said, "She said, "I have a room to help my family." "I'm like, "You like to apply for my job, because your kitchen design is better than mine." My partner was really like, "You would be brilliant at this." Because again, it's those squares. It's still doing. I then got into the bathroom side of things as well as kitchen, cars, dressing rooms, all of that side of things. And then we've been putting together this amazing showroom for the last year. And it's quite high spec, which I don't want to put people off with, because we can work with budgets. Yeah. We're not there to just add the numbers on. No. I think it's crucial in this day and age that we are careful with people's money, because it's got to bring them value. We'll all agree that if you speak to an estate agent, putting a house on the market, the things that are going to sell it are the kitchen, primarily, and the bathroom, then onto the bedrooms. And if they have dressing rooms, that's all a bonus. But if you walk into a kitchen, it's quite nice if it needs totally ripping out, because you feel justified in doing this. So it's great when you've got a fresh piece of paper. Why do you think it's considered the most important room in the house? And why do you think it's worth investing in it? I think if you go back to when we were small, the kitchen wasn't that important. It wasn't such a major thing, where it was now, I think people are really into their food, they're really into their fitness. It's important as a family when you've got children to maybe have that one, your home a day where you are together. So I think it's great that it's really come and become such an important space. And now with kitchen diners and you plan living, you're looking at it all the time, so it's got to look good. It also has to be very functional. And technical these days is more gadgetry coming in. It's a side of things when my clients come to me and say, can you help me to sign my kitchen? I'm like, absolutely. We can work on layouts and materials together. But I think we should go and see a kitchen specialist. Yeah, because there's all these new things coming in. So when you start a project, how do you approach it? What's the very first thing you're trying to understand about the client? I think probably the same as what you do. I need to know who's living in the house. Yeah. How they use the house. Some people might be spending most of their time in their kitchen. When are they here? And how do they use the space? What would you see in the future? How do you want to change it? If you haven't got an open plan, is that what you're looking for? Tables are really key. Seating areas are really key. Because that's where you're going to try and bring your family together or socialise with your friends. They're key things that I like to learn and get under the skin of who I'm dealing with really. How to get to know your clients, don't you? And usually they end up being friends totally agree. I've got some really lovely clients who I keep in touch with. I did a big house in four rocks in something cold-filled. And I spent two years really in the house. We laughed that bedroom eight was mine. Yeah, bedroom eight. What do you think about budgets? Sometimes budgets can hinder free-thinking design. But is it important when you start your kitchen to set some idea of budget? Absolutely. It's really hard. It's quite a personal question. You know, you don't want them to think you're judging by asking the question. They often will think it's good to keep it secret. Let's see what she comes up with. But in my world, if we're looking at a kitchen, it could vary from 30 to 150. Yeah, it really can. With appliances and different worktops and space and storage and gadgets and things. So it really is hard. I try and give them brackets. So say, are you looking for something in the region of 30 to 50? 50 to 70, 50 to 80? Yeah. And it really helps me. Yeah. Because it's all about with a kitchen. It's all about the doors, the cabinets, the handles. My partner made the mistake of picking some beautiful handles for our kitchen, which I think they were 35-pound each, which isn't huge amount. But then we had 35 and they're beautiful and we appreciate them every day. But we weren't expecting to spend that sort of money. There are seven-pound versions of that. Of course. So yeah, I think Boucher is the difficulty in every conversation. But all I can say is the people who might be looking for a kitchen, be honest with your designer, because it really helps us. It saves us loads of time. We know which suppliers we're going to go to. Yeah. We know what type of worktop you really can afford. Or we have to dig into deeper about what you want from that worktop. But it really is just a budget. So definitely smart design works with any budget. Sometimes you have to work harder with a smaller budget to get that look. But it might be that the end result is I spend a little bit less on my integrated fridge. But I'm in love with those handles. And I'm going to have them because every day I'm going to touch them. I'm going to appreciate this. Exactly that. You know, there are ways integrated products or a brilliant way to save money on a kitchen. Yeah. Because you don't necessarily need that high-end brand. You need a reliable brand. And there are some good, mid-range ones that I would absolutely go to. That's a massive top tip. Do you think palettes and kitchens are good to invest in? For example, sage greed right now is the big colour. A few years ago, everyone wanted that deep dark blue. Yeah. Are you a fan of that or should it be a timeless neutral? Do you think so? I left to come to my house. Because my house is just very simple soft colours. I wanted a black in frame kitchen, which would have been quite expensive and quite a statement or eight years ago when we did it. So my partner said, let's go with a really soft off white grey. And still to this day, people walking on the sofa have you got on your kitchen. Oh, okay. So it's really timeless. But I always say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And I think if you want that bold colour, you've just got to think about this as an investment for the next 10 to 15 years. I see a lot of clients who say to me, our kitchen's been in 20 years. And that's the sort of kitchen I want to design for them. Yeah. That they don't look at it and hate it. And five years and think we spend X amount of money. We've got to replace it. So I think you've got to be wise. But if you're a person who loves colour, then go for it. Because it won't date in your home. And sometimes you have to forget about what's going on outside and be bold with what presents you as a person. Yeah. So I think, yeah, people need to really think about it. But if it's what you want, then go for it. Yeah, I love that. I think that's a really answer. I had a client recently who sort of sing with me, having a pink kitchen. And I'm very happy that she's considering putting the colour into home. But I have to always say, brilliant. Absolutely. Think about the next five years. But if you love it any every day, make you smile. Yeah. Then go for it. Obviously, we're talking about investing in something that's going to be in for a very long time. So thinking of some classic and timeless materials to use in the kitchen. What would you say, top of your list? I think everything about a kitchen. is about the worktop. I think that's where you can, again, top tip for saving money. Your cabinetry, your doors don't have to always be a painted in frame. There are some great products out there now that look great, veneers, UMFCs, MDFs, they're really robust. So as long as you're not smashing doors, they should give you that longevity. But the worktop is where you are going to be banging pans, dropping things on. So for me, getting that right is really key to the design. I always say it does the most hard work. It is something you can change later if it's not affordable at the time. But if you can stretch yourself then go for it because it's an investment long term. I think it's like marbles. Obviously they've got a little bit of porosity and so they absorb if you put a glass of red wine down, they can be a little bit of a hard work to look after. So what's a really hard working stone worktop that looks beautiful? What would you go for if you. So I love Decton. Decton is brilliant. All the porcelains coming out now are great because they, they're quite clean pretty much. You don't have every single worktop has its prize and cons. And I always say to people, do your research because I can tell you what I think because I know we would never put a hot pan on our own. Hot walks now because it's very low resin. The chances are it wouldn't, it wouldn't burn. But if you've bought a cheap quartz, the chances are the resin. It's the resin that burns on quartz. So you would potentially get a ring but I've had clients who have said to me when worried about the turmeric. So a lot of Asian families use a lot of turmeric. So Decton is very good for that but quartz can be good for it as well. So you really have to dig quite deep into using it and how they will use it because every single product. I love all the natural stones but unfortunately because of the porousness it's really tricky to keep them good. But then people have gone for dark colors and said well you wouldn't know. So there's always ways around it. And also think about the environment as well. I think that is really okay. Going forward, look at where they're made and the print impact in the world because I do think that's quite key going forward in our industry. We're not brilliant at it. How much is kitchen design changed over the last few years and why is it evolving so much now? AI and virtual reality is key because some people and it's a fact. Some people don't have the imagination to be able to see things. So you can talk about a red balloon but they can't physically imagine in their minds. So it's really good. And you probably find it sometimes you can get so excited about something and then you realise they don't want to hear that. So I think it's really good. So that they from an interior design I present and I only give them snapshots of what the kitchen will look like initially and we'll dig into it a later day. But it's evolving all the time. There are so many colours out there. A few years ago there was no colour choices. Kitchen design was at four colours and if you wanted to do a paint to board it was like catching, you know, the clothes going on. But now it's brilliant. Most suppliers will give you around 30 colours that are beautiful. I think yeah, it's improving all the time. Sizes are now much more open. We do everything that's completely bespoke if need be as long as the budget's there. Yeah, and do it. What about the extraction? Some of the things have changed so much. Yeah, we do recirculation. So in the showroom, the hob that we've got in there and Cooper's Bush is the brand that we've chosen for our showroom. We've partnered with them and that is absolutely brilliant because it recirculates in the unit and then cleans all the air. So this is NASA technology which is phenomenal. And then we have small gaps at the top of our plinths that wrap around the bottom of the kitchen and the air just comes over top of them. It's absolutely genius stuff and it means that you don't have to, as long as you've got a supply to that space, you don't start having to dig out to your home and they work just as effectively. It is better if you can get that ventilation ducted outside. But unless you're there at New Build, then you will struggle. I love watching the videos when the smoke just gets drawn into the middle and they're a brilliant asset in the kitchen for sure. What things make kitchen work well day-to-day regardless of size or cost and is it still the work triangle if you're designing it on your your square paper? Yeah, I think for me it's about the areas of the kitchen. So why kind of yes it's a triangle but each of that point of the triangle is an area. So for me, I look at it that I need a dirty clean area. So I want somewhere round the sink where I can clean plates off and I can pop in a dishwasher or run them under the tap before they go into dishwasher. So key thing is your bins, your dishwasher and your sink are in the same area because I get it all the time where people say oh no we want to put that on the island and it's like so if your partner or your child is cooking you're going to have to keep walking around them to do the dishwasher. It's thinking about your walk when you come back from the dining table or the island or wherever you're eating. How does that process just very short, very clean and it's also an area I'm not a massive fan of sinks on islands because when I'm sitting with a friend having a glass of well I don't want to look at your sink. No very true. Whereas if you pop it on the back then it's just perfect tucked out the way dishwasher bins all of that over there and then your island I still love a whole bonn on island I think they look beautiful. I've looked into lots that are actually hidden so the induction is actually under the stone so you turn it on from the back of the island and you don't have anything on the top and they've never really taken off. You see them in some top London designs but because there's then nothing on the island it looks a bit sparse and I think nowadays the induction are so pretty and they look really nice. We've got a long, we cook in a row on our induction because it's small. It's really practical because I don't have to lean over the back so it's little tips on that I think. I'm working on a kitchen at the moment for a client who wants the three by one point to me trial and she wanted the sink on there because when she was doing the washing up she didn't want to feel that she had a back to the room which I can understand and also she wanted to miss out on the divisions on the wall over there but actually we've decided that it's not the nicest thing to look at and to move it to the run against the wall. She's going to the island completely clean I think in the moments when my children doing their homework, my nismas wide and so things are getting in the way. I've got the cooker on the island. So it's thinking about that. How your lifestyle yet again, think about how are we going to live in this house and things move on you know in five years time my children won't be working at the island. After COVID we're kitchen island became the workspace to people's she can have a dishwasher as well. Yes but she was not going to wash up that much is she probably not nice to much. Think it's just because everyone again you just think oh well well I like to look out the window. Well I like to look at something pretty but if you actually had a little device on you to see how long you spend it you'll see it's probably not that long. To make that bigger design to have it on the island to be looked at. I think now cooking is a bit of a drama isn't it's fair to it's like I'll just prep here. Yes. I love it when you see an island it's all clear chopping board bits and pieces. I love that theater of kitchen. How important is lighting and what are the great ways to include it in your design? So important and I you know our showroom I think the main thing that we've done there is go quite heavy on different levels of lighting so from the bulkhead where it's hidden within the ceiling to then we've got lovely wall lights. I think it's really key sometimes you need to be a bit subtle with it but it depends on your style because nowadays there are a lot of the modern designs you know you can do quite a lot with your LEDs. And it depends on the supplier how it works a lot of German kitchens they will come all integrated in your kitchen. So when you've got a hand on this kitchen it's already integrated to the top but there are ways to retrofit it into the worktop for instance or under the plinth or you know all of those bases. So it really depends again on the design and your supplier and budget because it's often can be less costly to go to a designer to a supplier where it's all integrated already but then you might want to do different things when you open the doors of your pantry the lights come on and you know those things it just depends on each individual I never like to set myself this is rigid this is how we're going to do it because each design on me the decision on with the client because I'm just asking. That's the thing designs always evolved don't they? And where you start off it will always change but for me as a designer I'd say think about your kitchen in the various times of the day so what do you want to see first thing when you come down the morning you don't want to feel like a spaceship's landed in your kitchen all lights are on you need some subtle lighting absolutely going on there the kitchen I had the build to put all these little spotlights around the bottom which never ever got used. So eliminate the things that today looks amazing but actually five years time. They did quite very early didn't they? Yeah. That's why I'm quite careful with LED because it's very on trend to use it everywhere now but like everything we'll probably look at it and something else would come out. We've got these beautiful downloads in the showroom that I really love. You can angle them for autumn, different things like that and they're just very simple. I love those and the track lighting we've actually got in the dressing rooms. You know we used to have track lighting years ago. That's evolved and now it looks useful against you know the the cabinetry we've got in in the dressing rooms again just thinking about the long term natural light. I think that's key. Yes to think we need to be there at the start of the project that's key isn't it and I'm understanding where the house sits is so important because you might have an all-facing garden that the kitchen overlooks. You need to add in that light and know for you guys I've worked with interior designers at the end of projects before and I just felt for you guys so much because there's no supply here and I need bought I need some nice table lamps and things like that. It's so important to get it get it organised at the start of the project I think. He points out it's really interesting because the colour of the light coming into space. No one ever really thinks about it when you're in stores that I could catch it. Yeah to think what are you looking at outside is important but also do I need to have power in these various other places. Getting the interior designer in with the architect is a new build definitely is a massive one and the interior designer doesn't need to stay on the project all the way through just work with the architect kitchen consultant to start with. It's just about lovely details like a media wall and things like that you might be working on. That's going to need supply. It's okay and I think I don't know but I get the impression that you guys get bought in last minute and really you should be there at plan stage. It's a common misconception that the pretty bits in the interior designer does which yes it's an element of that architectural interior design which I am and most designers will have a very strong idea of placement to things and so when you get brought in at the end that bit of wall for example if you were running up to a window and if you could just move the window over slightly so you've got at least 700-800 so then you can run your kitchen right to the end of the wall instead of having to do a little set back things like that it just gives you a whole other variance with how big you kitchen because I love architects but they are looking at the the build side of it and how the house can be bought together. I don't want my clients looking at the back wall I want them looking at the garden. Architects don't always take that into account they draw a design on the plan which their client might think oh that's the way the kitchen's going to go but then I walk in and expect to them yeah oh no you need to flip it onto that wall and they're like what is that doable yeah we just need to get everybody so it's like that I always think just to get people on site to begin with yeah trust trust your designer absolutely so what mistakes do you see people make again and again when they plan it themselves without going to see a professional I can't remember the actual number but there's something like 4,000 components in a kitchen something ridiculous like that you know with hinges and everything so I think the biggest mistake is people do think that they can do it themselves because it's not just about the design it's about the ordering and the storage and the planning around it there's so much more involvement in it than I think because it is such a huge investment get some get some advice on it you know and I think the biggest fear is that it's going to cost them a fortune to do it but what it will actually do is save the money in the end and heartache no we all watch grand designs and it's it's hard enough building an extension or doing it refurb or you know investing the time most of our clients are time pool and save you so much time and so much money in the long run you don't have to spend every weekend going around all the different showrooms that you've got to eliminate that yourself it's like hinges are really important handles yep taps work tops yep lighting yeah if you were going to say a top 10 of things to concentrate on yeah they'd be the um keeping your work tops clear clear is really key you don't want too cluttered so things like if you can invest in a boiling tap they're amazing get rid of get rid of that that kettle um I think storage spend some time on it I often do kitchen mapping with my clients where I literally will label each cabinet for them place plates and bowls food I will just give them that they can really go away and think well if I'm making a cup of coffee for instance I don't want to be as exact in across my kitchen for the milk get back to that triangle but it's it's about how you prep food am I going to use that island or peninsula for prepping food right if so I need the food to hand and the knives and the and the bowls so so the not that we're lazy and it's good to get steps but it will drive you mad if you don't get that design right storage a work tops as I've said yeah important the lighting natural as well as additional lighting is key cabinet you can go for a fairly cost effective cabinet but put some nice drawers in it you know you cutlery drawer make that dovetail or upgrade the bits that you use on a daily basis because the cabinets if they're just got a shelf in them they're not going to get too much use it another thing draws where possible we've got a whole whole kitchen of drawers even our dishwasher looks like a drawer two drawers to line up with everything else which I was told not to do but I did anyway and it's fine yeah I do but drawers are brilliant because again you're investing in a in a home that as we get older you know bending down and crawling in that corner cupboard outs the drawers they're just brilliant because you know we have a lot of our food storage in in pan drawers and you've got rice is couscous all these you can look down and you look down and you use them whereas how many times if you got the bucket of your cupboard and you said those things have been in there like five yes yeah it's brilliant because you get to see it and so you just constantly using food rather than just having it in the storage I'm a near to ten do you think you're doing really well yeah I'm not going to count I think all color I think all color doors obviously are key think about cleaning for instance if you go for a very detailed infram or shaker are you somebody that cares about the constantly cleaning the the little the little ridges darker colors often show more dirt and dust arse it brilliant just don't see it because it's a light color darker color work tops can often be so the press for yeah where you would think again it would be more practical so yeah there are there are so many things to think about nowadays boxing in your kitchen to the ceiling is great because then you don't go up on the ladder one day and go on my way the dust trap up there yes horrible and Greece we because we want to troke my pocket in we don't have any tool units so everything is under counter and actually my dad when I first did it said if you had an extension because it got towers in there before tool units because it's a long thin galley it made it feel very small in space so we took everything down to base level and put shelving in that's interesting and it doubled the salt I see haven't got any glory in it no no second but you have to think about the shelves by the hop yeah because the grease and the sting can make it an area so we're thinking again you're always doing your own home on you about having some dressers maybe on one side but keeping them quite narrow so they're great for food storage and things like that but don't oppose in that yeah that narrow kitchen that's a really good point that's really interesting I'm not seeing many kitchens that haven't got any on wall cabinet but that's a lovely idea being realistic then honest with yourself about how you live because these beautiful walk in lard is very much in though and I did one for a client last year and it looks beautiful of George and home but are you going to be curating the shelves are you going to make sure your spice rack is up to date and all the labels are pointing the right way or are you going to prefer to put that away in a deep drawer that you can get to my younger son loves baking and everything is in a tall cupboard at the top of kartsy and so if he says can we bake this weekend I'll just go out and buy and come better get some flour and then I find ten of them in there I do a lot of the pantries for mums who are busy and what they like to do is don't care what goes on in the pantry what they do is chuck it all in there when you're off to school shut doors yeah and walk away from it so the how the whole kitchen is carry but just when you open the doors it's like old so they use it as like a real breakfast space but yeah I think it is just being honest don't put pressure on yourself try and think what makes your life easier because there's a lot is enough to do so I think don't over complicate spaces because it's got to be practical I'm seeing more of these um cupboards that you put up in the toaster on the coffee machine and if you've got a kettle is in there but that's the breakfast so yeah and then you can close that way do all the time appliance garages they often call them but I think like the breakfast bars where the cereals bowls and things like that again you might be running around making sandwiches for the day, for the kids or Russian kind of prep food, give the children that area to have their breakfast things, everything's in there and then just close the door. Just working with a new German brand and their hinges for the pocket doors. Hidden doors slide away. It's a beautiful detail like that because you have to think that those doors are bigger so they often stick out and people don't realize. It's things like that that you've got to think about. There's a little bit of compromise on certain things. I love all the new stuff coming through again, right side to about it and take me to a factory. I've been quite a few times before with with German kitchen. I love seeing all the robots testing, testing doors. Brilliant. It's too confidence they're inspectifying and coming back to a budget and investment. If people are spending the money, you really want to say to them, this is why this door has been tested. This paintwork, this veneer has been tested. Splashbacks. I'm hoping to do my kitchen this year and I've got quite busy mosaic, which is 12 years old now. That needs cleaning with the toothbrush sometimes. You can have glass, you can have the stone. You don't see that much tiling as a splashback. No, my lovely niece is just doing her new home and she's picked out these beautiful soft pink square tiles to go with her a shaker kitchen and it's beautiful. She loves these tiles. She will look after that kitchen. I generally talk at a clients about how much they use their space. You've got to be aware that grouts are okay but they're not robust to stop and to staining. So I think they're really key things to think about. With all these natural, beautiful work tops you see now, they're often just then seamlessly going up onto the walls, which is a great look. Book matching is quite excited. I'm working on one at the moment. Can you explain that to your people? Book matching is where a grain or a work top, you could have two pieces but you can mirror them. So if you've got it and that's a slide. Butterflyed on a on a work top looks phenomenal. The slab size is off those pieces of work tops. There's only certain sizes you can go up to. Some jumbo slabs will be 3.4 but really you're looking at 3.1 meters for a piece of stone by 0.35 meters width. So the book matching's great for that because you can join it together. Have that butterfly effect. They work really nicely. I think you've just got to think about those because the cost will go up with those work tops as soon as you start to go up the wall, you're then effectively having another work top really. But I think I love it. We didn't do it with ours. We've just got the full high to the extractor in our kitchen and then it drops down. So a smaller upstand, I think it's really nice. Just paint it all and just paint it all. Think if you can push it to have the upstand or the splash back all the way along. It's really easy to clean. And in your kitchen you've got shells so you do it up to the lot of the shell. Exactly. I could talk about it all day. That's good. That's why you love what you do and makes it so lovely. So final word on kitchen. So if you can only get three things right, what did they be? Lighting, storage, work tops. Perfect. I think that's wonderful. There's so many things you said about that's brilliant. That's gold. That's gold. I love it. I really care about the end results. Another key area that I've seen a massive uplift is bathrooms now. They are not any more just a place you do, you get visit quickly and get out of. If you look at Instagram, this beautiful image of them walks out there and available and you do work at this level as well. Personally, I've been doing a lot more bathrooms lately, especially for the on-sweet bedrooms. They are number two cellar after the kitchen is and what's super on-sweet, like, or what's your family bathroom like. So the finish level's definitely gone up. So what are the main elements do you think that you should be considering when you're designing a bathroom? Again going back to who's using the space. It's really important. So if it's the whole family, the main bathroom or an on-sweet, they used to say you've got to have a bath in your home. We see it less and less. I like to have it. I'm still old school. And because it's all very spa. Exactly. I think people are now thinking, you know, people loving that thought of candles, music, you know, nice thing. I think it's working out if you've got the space for a bath still. Think massively what's coming in for us is the Japanese, you see. So these are phenomenal. I've been working with them for years actually. A lot of cultures will have it as an absolute, you know, necessity in their WCs. These are the all-sing in all-dancing WCs that, you know, wash, brush, blow dry. But you know, I lived in Italy and B-days were an absolute must in everyone's own time. So it does make sense and it's not a great conversation. But it is worth thinking about and we see it more and more. And we've got one in our show room. It's also got heated sea. And you don't have to use all the the bits on it. So remote control. Yeah, you can just use it as a standard toilet. But it's just it's very good for posture. It's very good for the heated seat element of it. We've been doing quite a lot of losing the trims on bathrooms. So now mitering where you join the two tiles on a corner with a 45 degree cut. So they sit together beautifully if I can do it on a job. Done it really nice. And what role do you think Covid's played in this? Huge. I think there's been such a shift. I do think everybody started to spend so much more time at home with their families and friends. That the house has just had this whole new different way of being seen and used. And with social media and everything else, people have really started to, you know, share this space. And so now it's like, oh, I don't want people to see it like this. So I think huge. I really do. The unfortunate thing about Covid is the costs have gone up and they never came down. They said at the time it would products would would would would peak and then and then level out. So it is it can be quite a shock to some people when we cost fairly straightforward space like a bathroom or a kitchen. And the costs are still quite high because gone other days of the £10,000 bathroom sadly with the work going into it and all the elements. What sort of things do you think are a really good combination to put into a family bathroom guarantee success? Yeah. A little bit nervous about approaching it. I think the good old 600 high by 1200 long so millimeters so 1.2 meter long tile. It does what it says on the tin. It's big. So you've got very limited grout and you can do some lovely stuff. We've actually got them going vertically rather than horizontally. And that's a really nice look in our showroom. We work with various different suppliers but tiles are the key to any bathroom really. I think we've gone heavy on the the mitering in ours. We've got the tiled the sink made from tiles as well to match the flooring which is phenomenal. If you've got the budget it looks great. I get quite excited. Tiles are like worktops to make. Yeah. You can really play around with them and you can go for very spa like we did a lovely bathroom at the end of last year that was really punchy colors. Small guest bathroom who went with like an almost a pin with a very dark maroon. It was very bold but when you saw the rest of the house it absolutely worked. The client was like this is exactly our system. Yeah. What we want. So I always think if for me I'm just doing a kitchen or just a bathroom it's got to tie in with the rest of the house. Yeah. That's not about me. Yeah. It's not about what I what's on trend. What's ever it's about how that room can transition into their home and be part of it rather than having an ultra modern kitchen in a very traditional home. I think that's key. I think it's key. I think the flow of the house is really important. I always say for a downstairs WC you can afford to go a little bit mad if you want to. Yeah. Just because, I offer it's not tired all the way downstairs. Why not go mad with the wallpaper? Fable for J.X if you want to or just have some fun because it's not going to cost a fortune if you then decide to sell the house to be paid for a paint that I'm about to do a project with a lovely friend of mine and we're getting mother of pearl tiles just as a little bit of a nod to the beauty of of that and it's a feminine space. It's sort of dispersing with a marble just that little bit of a twinkle. It's a very small space so we don't want busyness. We don't want too many grout lines but just a niche in the shower. We're going to put them there. So it's thinking about how can I just lift this a little bit from the everyday in the ordinary, the end storage. Yeah. So these beautiful large vanity units, the drawer, so much nice in the having products all over everywhere. Niche is into the showers. Yeah. Amazing. So you haven't got those horrible metal things on the wall. Go rusty. Yeah. Which I know you'd run a wheel from all that sort of stuff. But also thinking about you know you can accessorise your bathroom once it's finished if it is looking a bit neutral for your liking. Add some plants and all the kids. You can still have shelves in those areas. And things like hand towels, your bathroom towels. I am all for a pop of colour, an accent colour in a bathroom for anywhere in the home. I like to use an accent colour in our house that flows during the house. I really like that link. I really like that accent. And one top tip I'd say is when you go into your shower, have the controls near where you enter, not right under the shower head, because there's nothing worse. It's cold, it's always cold when it comes off. Yeah, my dad did it in here, master bathroom years ago. And it was so clever, you walk in the entrance to the shower and then all there. Because it makes no difference to fitting, you know, the walls are going to be back to brick or back to stud wall anyway. So it can be all planned and lighting as well. I'm seeing a supplier who can do the miter, so wherever tutorials me, putting LED on that corner. Wow. It's super subtle, but beautiful. And again, that spa feel, just having subtle lighting in the niche or the alcoves. We do a lot of the lighting where you're walking to room. The light will come on the center, the WC, which is perfect when you've got guests, you know, or even the hallway down to the bathroom. We have a lot of guests in our room. How can you light that way? It'll have the night, light the space. You know, make it really simple. So it's just little things like that thing. That's a lovely touch, especially when you walk into the bathroom the middle of the night. Yeah, you know what, the lights on bright. I think they're just little things that, you know, you try and try and have a checklist with clients. Nine times out of ten, it might not be of interest, but some people it's like we had not thought of that. And it's those extra touches that make our life more fun. And a client's life a lot easier in the long run. And I know not always massively expensive. I think when you, if you were approaching a bathroom, once again, hopefully it has a window in, if not, that's not the end of the world, we can work around that. But think about, you know, where the power needs to be. Having a beautiful LED mirror is such a. Instant gratification, you walk into bathroom, it's floating on the wall, it's lit, it's a above vanity unit. That looks great. But, you know, be practical. Make sure you've got extraction. And if you've got a noisy old extractor fan, very easy to get it changed on the night of the nutrition. But these are the things that will add value again to your home. When somebody perhaps comes to look around it and they walk in and it's beautifully done and it's the finish as well, like you're saying, it's important. And not about where your spotlight's applied, still a bathroom. Yeah, not over your head. Not over your head. I always sit in my hairdressers and say, I know there's a spotlight right above my head. And I just, I'm having my hair cut and I'm just thinking, Oh, God, I look off way to leave. So think about it in your own bathroom, don't put a spotlight right above your mirror because you're just walking every morning. It's just not the way to start a day. Think about how you light light the LEDs, and lovely the mirrors, because they give you that soft light in, and then you want in the morning. And if, you know, ideally you're not doing your makeup there, it just bronzes up your day if you don't look too bad. Definitely does completely, definitely. And so talking as an interior design, obviously it's a question I want to ask you, but do you think a client having an interior designer is a good conduit between yourself and the end result? Yeah, I think a lot of people will call us interior designers, but I really don't class myself as one. A lot of the stuff that you'll do as well. So we'll have massive overlap, but with a client where they are looking at a house scheme, and they are looking for that flow in every room and it all time together. That's where really it's perfect for me to work with an interior designer to bring that to life. So I can concentrate on getting the right lighting in the kitchen or getting the right supplier or planning that template for the worktop and all of those things, but the interior designer is overlooking how the house ties together. And I think that is key. I've tried to do it on a really big job. I did a couple of years ago. We bought an interior designer in the end because I had a lot of rooms in that house. And I was falling short for the client because they just initially wanted help with furniture and things like that, which I did and helped, but it's the scheme. It's a lot more to it than just so if it's layering, the rugs, the cushions, the lighting, the artwork, the pendants, it's so, so much to it. And I think you guys never get enough praise for what we do because some people do see it as they do the cushions and the curtains. There is so much that you can get involved with them. I think it's absolutely key. I'm a job where you're doing a whole scheme to have an interior designer involved in it, for sure. Your areas of things you do are so specialist anyway to them's be given, like, oh, you're doing kitchen and bathroom. Can you just do the rest of the house? It's a quite big, it is. Shout out. Yeah, absolutely. And I think to get it right and tie it all together nicely, it's just great for me if I can work with an interior designer on a job. And some clients have got their own great ideas, which is really, yeah, some dying. So you think, oh, wow, they needed an interior designer to follow that scheme through. I think a lot of people think it's really easy. And it's really not. I think it's so hard. I've talked to them. Interior design in many areas seems a bit of a luxury, isn't it? And people-- and it's entirely their choice. But often I go in and people say, I've never got to this point without you actually up and trying to do this for two years. And I just don't have the time or the energy anymore to do it. It's lived with something much longer than they actually would have done because they were trying to do it themselves. And then they've got it wrong. So it's too big or they'd not go in interior design in with the architect. They're furniture-roof. Because there's no space. It's those things. It's like we're talking about the large format tiles. They're fantastic. You can get 3.2 meter tall now. But you must make sure that you don't put your door way in. Because you've got to get them in for this poor Tyler and his friend, because you need to. So you've got to get them off the lorry. It's all of those things that I like to concentrate on, so that you guys can then bring it all together. Thank you so much for coming on today and talking to us. I think we need to get you back again to talk about. Some of the other areas you work on, like the dressing rooms, and the bedrooms. And I know you're doing an outdoor kitchen in your showroom in Leventon Spa. So if you are in Leventon, do go and see Maison interiors. You are open on Saturdays, hop in. Yeah, we are by appointment only, but that's something we've already changed to opening on Saturdays. Because we had window guilt when people didn't understand why the door was closed. And it's purely because if we've got clients in there, it's an experience for them. They come in. They have two or three hours with me. We go through all the spaces. And if there are other people in the showroom at the same time, it just feels uncomfortable for them. We do appointment only at the moment, Tuesday to Friday, open the doors on a Saturday. So there's a couple of us generally knocking around, happy to talk through the different spaces, make sure the people aren't scared to come in. Yes, because I think I've looked at showrooms before and still do as a dear partner. And I'm scared to go in because you don't want to waste their time. You also don't think you can afford it. And sometimes they're not always a bunch of friendly people. And I think that's what we're really trying to put over at Maison, that we're a really nice team. We work together really nicely. And we are open to conversations. We can tailor what we do. It doesn't have to be a whole house. We're happy to work with you if you just want your bathrooms from us. I think that's what we're trying to put across. Absolutely. So it's about being open, I think. I put all of your details on the credits for the podcast and our social Instagram, so on and so forth. Thank you so much for all your help with everything today. We'll see you again soon. Thank you.