Series 2: Episode 2 | SDR Career Series: Interviewing Part 1 - Can't Take Your Call Right Now

Kicking Off Interviews: Our Week in BDR Plans and Birthday Surprises Welcome back to another episode of Can't Take Your Call Right Now with me, Harry Monkhouse. Speaker 2 Me Lauren Reeves. Speaker 1 Today is Series 2, Episode 2, and we're going to be talking about the same theme, everything BDR career, and we're focusing primarily on interviews. Now, we've got a couple of key things that we definitely want to touch on. We want to make sure that you hear both from me and Lauren around how we conduct interviews, what we're looking for, what our best practices are. So yeah, super exciting episode. Speaker 2 Yeah. And then also, yeah, kind of questions you get all that, all that stuff, all. Speaker 1 The different stages. Speaker 2 Yeah, before we do that, hurry tell you about a week. Speaker 1 Yeah, been a good week. I am coming off the back of wow, two weeks of travelling now. So we've had been in Boston last week and then got back and now it was hosting the Australian team this week. So yeah, it was same content, different team, different structures. So the BDR plan had got launched almost today. So everyone knows what we are going to be executing on this year and then new territories and comp plan should roll out next week. So it's exciting, feels a bit delayed, but it's always a little bit delayed like that. Speaker 2 Yeah, Blimey, big time then. Do you think you're going to have some happy being yours? Speaker 1 Yeah, I think so. We've, we've standardized, we've actually standardized all of the territories and quotas assigned to that across the same across all regions, which is the first time we've ever done that. And then what we've done is we have turned the KPIs regional. So we've got different arts of different people and they're very different to how you have your team set up. We're going to have a hunter team, so who are just inbound and new business. We're going to have a customer expansion team and then we're going to have a customer expansion team that deals with inbound as well. So we're going to have three different business units within the team of nine. Speaker 2 Nice. Oh good to hear how it works out mate. That sounds. Speaker 1 Cool. So it's different, different priorities. So I'm looking forward to it. It's my first, first time I've ever built a full comp plan, territory plan, go to market, plan for a company and get the ability to be able to to run with it. I've done it for consultant stuff, but never, never executed on it myself. So yeah. Speaker 2 Exactly. Yeah, let's see if Harry from splat on his face. Speaker 1 Yeah, Yeah. Well, it's better than having no plan, I'll tell you that. Which is which has been the case before. So yeah, looking forward to it. How about you, Lauren? Speaker 2 Nice, yeah, Good. It's just getting all the motions. You've had a really nice start to the quarter actually. The team are doing a really good job. So that keeps me nice and happy. And then otherwise it's my partner's birthday at the weekend. So we're he doesn't know this and this comes out afterwards. So it's fine. We're going away tomorrow night for his birthday, for the night in the Cotswolds, a book sort of secret trip. So that'd be nice. And then he's got a birthday party of all his friends. Speaker 1 Friends. Speaker 2 So yeah, actually got a nice little weekend planned, which would be good. And I've got the day off tomorrow. So nice. It's a four day. Speaker 1 Wait, so this is basically your weekend you're recording this? Speaker 2 It's basically my weekend. That's a great point actually I'm up about. Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm not. Yeah, but who needs out of office for one day? Speaker 2 Yeah, I also do House of work I need to do before I actually log off. So, you know, we'll get to that. We'll get to that, but it's fine. I'll do that at 6:30 tonight. Speaker 1 Yeah, I bet. Are you glad to be done with you? You've done what, 30 presents over 30 days or something like that? Speaker 2 Yeah, we're a bit over the top, actually. It's so funny. Do you know what? It's jokes because like everyone keeps going like, Oh my God, Lauren, like that's so caring. Like so kind. Like you're just like such a good person. I'm thinking, no, I did it to prove that I'm better than him. Like this is not because I'm a nice person. This is because, I mean, the the battle of who gets better presents. And I was like, I'm winning the battle. Like I'm winning this, babe. Like no, no, no, no. Speaker 1 But what's he done? But. Speaker 2 Yeah, you can all think it's because I'm a really great person, but I really it's just because I'm trying to one up him and I and I did. I've succeeded. Speaker 1 100%. Speaker 2 Great. Great for me. But yeah, always at the end he's got. So he's got to do today's present, which is going to reveal tomorrow. And I actually miscounted, so I looked at my list. I don't know how I did it. I forgot the number 14, so I've literally gone 1-234-513-1516. So I missed, I missed bought a present. So I was looking at the part of presents and I was like, we've got like 5 days left. It doesn't look right now. You know, you're like something. Speaker 1 'S wrong here. Speaker 2 Yeah, I miscounted so Oh well. It's. Speaker 1 Well, is he counting then, did he? Speaker 2 Even realize birthday card. Oh, he has realized annoyingly, but it's fine. I was like an I owe you a haircut. Speaker 1 Oh yeah, that's. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's a great. Speaker 1 One yeah, cash in power. Speaker 2 And then when he goes and gets his haircut tomorrow, I will go and walk to the shop and buy a birthday card. Speaker 1 Lovely stuff. Speaker 2 Because I haven't. Speaker 1 Done that, yet always the thing that I'm I'm actually a big no card person. Speaker 2 Oh yeah, I love a card. Speaker 1 I've just, I've just done it so well that no one expects anything from me and it's great. Great. Like if you down, down the sword, then people are like, OK, I kind of get it. And I'm like, yeah. Speaker 2 Great, but unbelievable. Well, yes, there you go. Big weekend coming up, which should be good. So yeah. Speaker 1 Excited to hear about next. Speaker 2 Your vibes. The Strategic Value of Staying Market Aware for Career Development Yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah. So Harry, are you interviewing at the moment? Is that are you actively practicing the type of questions you ask people, or are you on pause for the moment? Speaker 1 No, we, we hoping that we will have a role live soon, but I've kind of already gone through the interview process with a couple of people. So I'm hoping that we've got a a good pool of candidates already kind of lined up. Speaker 2 Nice. Speaker 1 I think as well, like I'm always practicing interviewing. That's never stops. I'm always thinking about like, I hate going like a year without doing one form of interview. I feel like because otherwise I've been made redundant before and I've always just gone after that. I was always like, I should practice or hear what the market is saying. Sometimes things progress a little bit further than maybe anticipated just on conversations. But I'm always someone that is always looking at the job market, not because. Speaker 2 Yeah, you're so good at this. Speaker 1 But not because not I'm looking to lose. Yeah, not because I'm looking to lose you. Speaker 2 Messaged me at like 8:30, if you haven't been like four really good jobs in the market right now. And I'm like, hurry, it's a random Tuesday at half eight. Why are you sending this to me? And then you'll be like market shifted. I'm like, cheers, Harry. Brilliant. So I don't need to go looking because I just thought you were telling me. It's fantastic. Speaker 1 I'm a part time recruiter for every other BDR manager in the market. Speaker 2 You are very good at that. Yeah, No, I do agree. I always think this actually, I, and we talk about this a lot about like what's on our CV that's going to make us attractive because you're right. Like you don't know if you're going to get made redundant. Like you just don't know what happens. And same as me, like I have no intention of leaving my company anytime soon for quite a long time. Things happen. I mean, no one going to predict COVID. Yeah, exactly. So I think, I think just knowing what your CV saying, keep it on top of your skills, how you've grown as a leader, what you've done to add more notches to your belt, all of that is really important. So yeah, this is also relevant for like leaders and also if you're not interviewing as well as if you are. So I agree with that A. Speaker 1 100% I feel like people, especially early on in their career, like BDRS, it's probably not till like 912 months in that you start to realize that how other companies may be doing this as well. And I think, yeah, very quickly you can have a conversation with another business and they're like, hey, we actually pay this out. I think one of the while I'm always have got an eye on the market because I am genuinely interested in the way that the BDR manager role is shifting and some of the ownerships. And also it's similar to the last podcast that we did with David and Rich, right? Benchmarking yourselves across the market is really, really interesting. And the responsibilities like you could be like, technically I run a whole team and you run a whole team, right? But that could mean something completely different in another business. So you have to like benchmark yourself on title and pay as well. But one of the things just highlighting on the BDR side is the challenge that I find people get early on in their careers, they get really like trigger happy. So they see the money and then they're like, this company is going to pay me 20 grand more. Oh, I need to move. And it's actually, it's like we spoke about on the first podcast. It's not all of this season. It's not always about that. Speaker 2 No, it's true. I've I mean you remember this such change about time there was this, this role there was like same set, exactly what I was doing now managing A-Team etcetera. But it was just like a change of like market seg market. So it's like going to Enterprise instead. But the play was outrageous. I literally was like, and I couldn't believe that. I couldn't believe that like I could be doing in fact less than what I was doing in my current position at the time have made like it was big jump. It was like 30 grand more on base. It was crazy. And I literally was like, wow, like I'd actually have less responsibilities than what I have now. Speaker 1 Which is crazy. Speaker 2 Yeah. And I got paid so much more and like, you know, I think the, you know, in hindsight it's a good thing. I I, I didn't do that role because the exposure to what I do now I'm going, I do like cross segment, like I understand, like SMB, mid market enterprise, I'm doing America and me are. So I'm actually getting far more exposure in this role than I ever was. If I'd gone for that role and like, which is mad, but like, yeah, I think I think it would have been very easy for me to think, yeah, lovely. Like I've already seen myself spending the money. Imagine what the rent I could have paid. It's insane. I think you have to sometimes. I mean, you've done this. You have to think about like long term career gain than than short term. Like that's why you went and did AE and then etcetera, because you wanted to have that under your, under your, your CVS where I said, well, I've closed. I know what it takes to be a closer so you can step into, you know, other roles and stuff. Yeah, I think, I think we can all get blinded by money sometimes. I think it'd be crazy to say that you wouldn't be. And I think it's fair to take it sometimes as well. Absolutely. Speaker 1 100%. Speaker 2 But but yeah, it is the I think, and you know, what we spoke about in the podcast with David and Rich is that it's the the difference in pay further, the same job title depending on how far down the funding round a business was, is dramatic. That was also so interesting. I couldn't believe it. You being in a Series A means that you're going to get paid the same probably as what like a team lead is going to get at like a Series C plus. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. But again, but then obviously. Speaker 2 The Series A you get yadda yadda. So yeah. Speaker 1 But that like we're going into there, the CV building stuff like is the most important thing. Like we, I mean, we discussed it in the kind of our 2025 recap with Mike and Hitesh, right? They don't believe in, well, Mick didn't believe necessarily in like the AIBDR stuff. But again, one of my goals for this year is actually hiring an AI employee and seeing if I can make it work, regardless whether to. Because I believe that that is something that not many BDR managers will have tried, tested and potentially being successful at and building a team in the Philippines this year to try and see if we can do something a little bit different. Like, again, that's another CV build. Like, does that add additional money to me in the long run? Probably, Right. So there's different experiences and I think it's the same as what you're going through at your current role. Like you've taken on so much more responsibility across multiple different areas. And there's a huge benefit to that as well. So yeah, super, super interesting. Deciding Between Green Talent and Experienced Hires in SDR Roles Yeah, this is supposed to be more about like interviewing, but I think it's let's get back on track. But I do think it's a good segue of maybe Lauren, just talk us through kind of how you run an interview process. So we spoke about in Episode 1, like how to get into tech. Like there's different ways, whether you go for like a paid training program, an assessment day, or you go direct or through additional recruiters, there's a multitude of different ways that you can get that first interview. But let's say they have a application that is successful within that first stage. What does the screening process look like? What are you looking for then? What are the additional stages? Yeah. And have they got the role? Speaker 2 So I've, we, well, I, we've been using recruitment agencies just because we're small, we, we didn't have the talent, the right talent people to do it. So it's far easier to go to recruiter, build a good relationship with them. They understand exactly the kind of candidate that I'm after. And then they get to do all that really like pre screening, all of that side of it. So I've been quite fortunate in that sense. I haven't had to do a ton of that. And then at my previous roles, we've had a whole talent team, they've done all of that as well. So once you're through pre screen. So what am I looking for for pre screen? Well, depends. There's two areas I've always said this, I'll hire no experience. I'll hire experience. I don't think that 1 is better than the other. I think that's good and bad for both. So I think it depends on what you need at the time for that specific hire. There'll be points where you have time to hire someone that's green. You can actually give them the coaching, the training, the onboarding. Then there's other times where you're like, I just want someone to come and do the fucking job and then you're like, so then you don't. So you know, and when you've got someone that's. Speaker 1 Got when, when do you think that is right? Because I the way that I kind of interpret that is if you, let's say you had a load of people leave your organization quickly, but let's say you have three people hand in their noticed or within a very short period of time. Your hiring stratagem there or I resume or mine would be that you might want to hire someone with experience or two people with experience there and then one person without just so that you don't have this risk of like ramp, right? Because you basically then lose the hiring process normally takes like 6 to 8 weeks to find someone and then you've got the onboarding and stuff like that. You really lose like a almost like a four month period of your, of your whole financial year due to the fact that someone leaving and then being rehired and redeployed and then back up to speed. So by hiring someone with experience, you probably shorten that ramp period, maybe by a month realistically. Speaker 2 I think it for me, I would say there's two things. There's one yes, how do I, why am I hiring? Is it new headcount? Is it because I'm adding on to the team or is it backfill for whatever reason? I think that definitely plays into it because if it's if it's backfill you weren't anticipating, EG you've had to let somebody go, somebody hands they're noticing, then you do kind of want to fill that gap pretty quick. And having some of experience is great. However, the second point is the capacity that I have as a leader. So for example, like for me, I'm the only beat, I'm the only manager in the UK and the USI don't have time basically. So like I've got 14 BDRS coming to me in the UK and then I've got 14 BDRS in New York coming to me for OP questions. So that's 28 people that are picking my slack every day. It's a lot of people. So for me, I kind of want people that like right now are just going to know how to do the job. And my job as their manager is to come in and to listen to their calls. It's to tell them little things they're missing, but it's not to actually teach them how to do a cold call right now. That's that's what I need. However, in six months time it could be, but it could be me and another manager and I only have a team of eight and I I'm not really looking after New York or American market at all, which therefore means that I could have someone had the notice leave someone and promote people. And then I've got the three, but I now have time to hire someone brand new. So even though I am losing people that I wasn't expecting to lose or I kind of knew because there was there was a promotion, but you know, all of that stuff, I'm actually, I might want to go green because then I can bring them in and I can literally coach them into the exact perfect Rep that I want. And I'll actually like, it'd be better for me to do that than hire someone with experience that might have bad habits. Because also, like there's always weird things that people come in that have got experience to do and that's fine. It's because they learn how to do this job at that company. And every company, like we said earlier, is different in how they approach things. So, yeah, I think that that's that's a big element of it. I would always be thinking about like where the market is at. So yeah, I don't mind. I know some people that always just want it green. They don't want to ever hire experience because they think bad habits. And I know when I was at the party, we only ever hired people of experience because they were like, we don't want to have to go brand new with somebody who's ever done the job before. It's too much hassle so. Speaker 1 Also adds a lot of risk. Speaker 2 Yeah, it should also be a lot of risk. So I. Speaker 1 Mean again, I think I said this on the on the last episode, but for me, I hire only green from a cost perspective as well, because people that come in with more experience, like someone who's done it for a year, is looking for a pay rise. Yeah. Speaker 2 That's a good point. Speaker 1 Or a lateral move. So they normally cost a little bit more. So while it adds it, the risk percentage goes down, the increase in cost and ROI that's needed to deliver goes up. So if you're looking at a profitability chart or an ROI protection for your team, they, they need to deliver more, which normally means they have a slightly higher target in regards to hey, if they cost you $100,000. Again, if you're looking at a Forex multiple, they need to deliver A400K, maybe enclosed one or three times, which is 300 K. Again, if you choose someone maybe a little bit more inexperienced, yes, the ramp time takes longer, so it pays back. But actually when you think about your annual recurring costs of the team, actually when you go into a new financial year, there is less scrutiny on your team's profitability. Again, we're talking about almost different things here in a sense due to the fact of you're in a super hyper growth market, new team, it's just about capturing as much market demand. And I work at a business that is lesser around like hyper growth. It's a more saturated market that is thinking about things way later stage because we're we've gone through the whole big boom get merger, we've done unmerged and stuff like that. So it's just different ways that people think about different teams. But I don't it's just something to to always consider or or understand. But yeah, super interesting. How LinkedIn, Outreach, and "Vibe" Define Top SDR Candidates Yeah. And yeah. And then I think. But either way, regardless whether you've got experience or you haven't got experience, the things that I'm always looking for on ACV is OK. So yeah, one CV is not a big thing for me. Actually I don't. I feel like I'm more go and look at what you're like tin saying and like that sort of thing. So I'm bit useless on that. Speaker 1 Function virtual point. I think CVS are a fucking waste of time. I just think. Speaker 2 And I think that they've become so shit with AI as well, because unless you've got the fucking buzzwords in it, you're. Speaker 1 Yeah. I just personally, I get it. I get it. You need ACV, you need to have something there to submit or something like that. Honestly, I think with the like again, the age demographic that we are, right, we are basically we're on the cusp of being the children that got bought up on phones, right? Yeah, we might have been one or two years a little bit old for that, but technically pretty much, but there's the digital bring up age, right, which is like social proofing all of this. I, I just think nowadays and I hope that CVS are changed in the way that people apply for roles and stuff like that. Again, I, I've tried the whole like applying for a role without ACV and using my LinkedIn. It only works if the person knows you like downloading your CV from LinkedIn. People just get a bit freaked out by it because it because the format looks so different to everyone else. But personally, I'm totally like you. There is, there is. There isn't a world where your LinkedIn isn't probably one of the combined like the most important things that I go and look at. Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think that's probably the same for a lot of people. So then, OK, what am I actually thinking about on that first interview? Because the first interview for me. Speaker 1 But you've got. Speaker 2 To go through the. Speaker 1 Team, you've got to go through the screening with the talent acquisition person as well, but you don't do that because you use a recruiter. So they're already putting. Speaker 2 That exactly. Speaker 1 Whereas I think the only difference is here we'll just, we'll probably let's match stages for stages. The the what you're talking about here is using a criter, which I think is I think is a very, very nice thing to have. If you don't have a talent acquisition team, the privilege of being able to use on even if you do have a talent acquisition team, I have never used a recruiter like to my full, to my full extent for hiring. I've had one or two and then there's a couple of people that I turn to when I do want to recruit. But again, as a hiring manager, you going through a recruiter you could cost from anywhere from 3 to 11 grand additionally on hiring so. Speaker 2 Yeah, they're not. Speaker 1 Cheap. They're not cheap. So the difference is if I'm factoring that into my budget, where does that come? Where does that talent acquisition budget come from? Does it come out of their salary? Does it come out of my my functions budget? Does it come out of my BDR budget or does it come out of the T as budget? So there's a couple of areas that you have to get that signed off in other areas. So I haven't for any of my hiring that I've done here, I haven't used a external recruiter, even though I have asked to use an external recruiter for some of the more bespoke language speaking areas. But we, we've kind of pivoted through the year. So the process that we have is you get, we use the example from the last episode, right? I had 200 and 5200 people apply within 48 hours. I what I did with my TA person, she went through what I was kind of looking for. So she does hair screening processes or the CVS. I'm the kind of manager that went through all 250 people. So if you had a LinkedIn, I went through your LinkedIn and then I put you into a yes, maybe no pile. No means that you've done no outreach to me. And I just don't like the look of your profile. So you could have reached out to me, but I don't like it. Maybe it's like, I like you, I like your CV and I like your LinkedIn, but you didn't reach out. And then people are that I say yes to, I liked your outreach, you connected or you followed. And I do like the look of your profile. And very quickly then I go down to probably a top 50, maybe yeses. And then we then decide on who are the top ten people to go through. And that's like we said, normally that's people that have made the phone call, connected with me with some good message, done some form of outreach. And then that is they're the people that go through to first stage for me. Speaker 2 That makes sense. Nice. I think for me, the ones that get passed through to me in the end for first stage, they they would have shown in some way that they obviously have that bite. So like they even reached out to the recruiter. Like they would have done something to get the recruiters attention. Yeah, they would have reached out to me and then I would have put them in touch the recruiter. That's always another way as well. That's kind of the main thing because then then people are going to fucking hate me saying this. I'm such a vibe manager. Like I'll be on an interview and it's like, do they have the vibe? Obviously there's questions you ask and there's answers to that and all of that. But yeah, it's like there's still the wind. They've got a vibe. How are you bloating sales today? Speaker 1 Literally cracker jokes. Speaker 2 Just yeah, like I think you, if you were to meet everyone in the team, they all just have that vibe. And I think what I mean by the vibe is that like for me, I want people who are happy to put themselves on the line. They don't, they want to just be the best. They don't want to fail. Like most of them have all done something a little bit crazy. Like I've got people that have moved from the other side of the world. I've got people that are professional swimmers. I've got people that have quit their like 10 year careers and switch. Like, they've all shown that they've just got that bite to just like, do something with themselves. And like, that's kind of what I mean by the vibe. Like that's what they would have shown when they were being screened. Like even like, why do you want to be in tech cells? And they would have said something like, yeah, like, oh, I've moved all the way from Australia. And I really want to, like, use that hunger. It's like make something with myself, like, or, yeah, I've always been really competitive. And like, for me, like, I always like, I like being in a targeted environment. Like they would have just shown they've got that. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Which is annoying. Sorry about that. That's all that helpful. But that's just what they could have done. And then, yeah, that's how they kind of get through to me. Which is why when you do work with a recruiter, you have to really get to know what each other. Like my my recruiter, I just had Sophie. Like she just knew what I liked the crowds did. Like she would send someone like she would mess with me and be like. Speaker 1 But she also knows how to vibe as well. Like, do you know what I mean? Like it's that type of yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that makes. Speaker 2 A big difference. Yeah. She would send me cancer and she would like, look like this person's profile is like, great. Like, look at their profile. Look at their LinkedIn, like they've got everything you want. But something doesn't feel quite right. And I've like them. Don't. Then they didn't know you. And at this point, I know that you know what I like. So if you don't feel like I'm going to like them, don't waste my time. It's fine. I just trust them. And we just got to that point where I just, I trusted what she said and like, she just knew whether or not it's worth sending things to me. Yeah. And that's what you want. If you do use an external recruiter. That's my bit of advice there. Yeah. If you are thinking about it and you do, you're sort of adding it in in some element. Like it's really important that you sit down and you really like, they really understand what you want because otherwise you'll just get shit put in your calendar and you'll be like, great, I've just fucking wasted 2 1/2 hours of my week on interviews. They're a lot of rubbish. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 So. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 But. Speaker 1 Yeah, Yeah, I think I will agree with you. I think I it's very rare I hire someone and don't know whether they are going to be hired within without. Speaker 2 Completely. Speaker 1 Agree. Well, let me I know within the 1st 20 minutes whether they were yes or no. Speaker 2 I knew what you meant, that's why I was like, I agree. Speaker 1 Yeah, but everyone else is probably not watching this. And it's like, what is he, what is he said and the but the yeah, I have never ever turned up to a first interview and gone. I'm not sure about them. And then they actually get through the process. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's true. That's true. Every person I've ever had that with, they've gone through the Nets because I've been like, well, they answered the questions really well. So like, I'll put them through and then that person's also then gone. Nah, that's something not right every time. Speaker 1 So what's what is your first first step in the interview process? Inside Lauren's Interview: Key Questions and Candidate Insights So I always get on, I go, this is just a chat, like literally the back and forth. I'm going to ask you questions that you would have heard 1000 times by this point. It's going to be nothing that you aren't expecting. I always try to leave 10 minutes at the end for questions for you. I always emphasize the fact that they're interviewing me as well as I'm interviewing them. Like they want to figure out if they want to work with me and for my and for my company as well. But I always do that. One thing I'm quite proud of actually is that my feedback has always been that I made people feel really comfortable in a first stage interview, which is what I want. I want that 'cause that's I want that. That's me as a manager. I always want my team to be comfortable. So I want them to feel that in an interview that that's basically my aim is for them to relax because that's when you get the truth. So I disarm people, I get on it and I'm, I'm me. So I'd be like, I might even swear if the conversation goes that way, like I won't put on a hey there, I'm Lauren. Like you don't get that. You get the Lauren that you get always. So that kind of throws people off and that's always a good test as well. So I'll get on 1st question. I always ask, how did you find out about tech sales and the, and the SDR role? Always. Because I just want to know. Yeah. Like, I'm just curious, why? Why do you want to do this job? What, how have you heard about it? And I think one thing that's so interesting is that a lot of people would have now heard about it because of social media or they've got a friend that does it. So they're doing it because their friend does it and they know what how much money their friend earns. What's so interesting is that never do I really get people going like, oh, I actually know what it was like the recruiter reached out and like they spoke about the role, which is what me and you were. Yeah, well, I was. See, I always ask that and I always say to them, you know, we've obviously there's a lot of channels you can outbound on. There's cold call and there's e-mail, there's LinkedIn. Like what do you think is going to be your strength? Because that also tells me a lot. So I don't like it. Or maybe should I reveal this? I suppose if I revealed it, then that means that they've read in their research. Speaker 1 Actually, I've I've given a I've given a detailed guide on LinkedIn to how to succeed in my interview process and I've only had one Rep user, so she'll be fine. Speaker 2 I hate when people say e-mail because I think that's lazy. Like you think your best is going to be e-mail, and the reason I think it's lazy is because that tells me that you're going to hide behind your screen. I really think it gives that impression. So I want you to say LinkedIn or cold calling. I just do. If you say cold calling, I'm going to go. We're a really cold call heavy company. That's really great to hear. Like why do you think you're going to be good at cold calling? Like what? Like what traits do you think you have? If they say LinkedIn, I'm going to, I always, no one really said that LinkedIn is mostly always e-mail cold call. But I dig into that. And the next thing I'll always ask is I'll go, I always go, did you go look at my LinkedIn? And I just do that. I leave it at that. And I wait to see what they say because they should have gone next Mannington. And I wait to see. And I can tell who's lying and who's telling the truth because if you're lying to me, you go, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you can see that you post a lot. And I'll go, oh, great. Did you like my most recent video? And if they've lied, they go, yeah, it was great. And I go, what did you like about it? And then that's when else did they flounder? Speaker 1 I just I just use the view profile stuff like that's. Speaker 2 Yeah, but I, I think it's, I think it's good to like. Speaker 1 Put them under pressure. Speaker 2 People are honest because if they're honest, that's that I don't mind. I like if you're on it. So like if you go, no, actually I haven't I, I didn't think about it and I go, that's OK, no worries that you weren't meant to. So it's alright. And I dive into like video LinkedIn, if they say they have and then they actually like, you know, talk about some of my content and then obviously ask them if they would do video because that's a big strategy for us at swap. So I dive into that a little bit. And then the last thing I like to ask and it's it's, it's quite savage. I learned this from someone called Cass at party. Shout out Cass. She was great. I always say to them, why do you think I shouldn't hire you? I, I love that question because happy will respond says a lot. So if they say you won't allow that, one reason you one reason you wouldn't hire me is because I am quite disorganized and I can get myself in a bit of a tears and I can get, you know, I can just lose track of my day really fast. But it's something I'm actively working on. And I think one way that I could get better at that is by doing X. That's a perfect answer because you've been honest. You've told me something you need to work on and like what might make me not want to hire you, but you've immediately said to me, but I know about it and I'm going to work on it. Speaker 1 Great. Speaker 2 Then that's, that's fantastic. And when people always say people, people say to me like, oh, like I don't have any experience. I'm not going to lie, that feels like a cop out because I know you don't. I look to your CV and I'm still interviewing you. So like, why would I not hire you? Because if I wasn't going to hire you about that, then I would be interviewing you. But anyway, when people say I haven't got any experience, again, if they follow up with Bart, I'm willing to do XY and Z, that's great cool tick. And then a bad answer would be like, they don't really give me anything. They give me something really wishy washy because they don't want to be honest all they give me an answer, but then they don't explain why they shouldn't. Then still hot. They why they I should still hire them. That's always a bit weird. It's like, oh, OK, I should just not hire you because of that. Cool. And yeah. And then I always have questions to them at the end. And I think questions are so important. You could have had an amazing interview with me. And if you ask me only one question and it's why do you work at SWAT? Speaker 1 Yeah, fucking done, yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, red flag. You're out. Yeah, you need to ask me questions. And this is what also does I also annoys me is people only ask me questions about the product. Why are you asking me about the team, about the culture, about how I coach, about how I manage, about Commission, about development? Like there are so many things that you can ask me and all you do is ask me about the product. Speaker 1 It needs it needs to all be you centric. So I think for anyone who's listening, I would go and ask easy questions like what is the biggest challenge that the team currently have today? What is your number one goal for the first half of the year to go and achieve? How are the team getting to target? What was the last time someone was let go? Why is this role available? What are you hoping out of your next Rep? What are you hoping for your next Rep? Like all of this stuff just indicates what is development, how when was the last time someone was promoted, whether that's into a senior BDR and AE, whatever that looks like, Just talk me through that. Again, I think what people get really bad at and forget to do like this, like Lauren has said, like this is all about you interviewing. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 The company as well. So I, I, when I interview, I'll be like, hey, I've got loads of questions. Look, I, I totally understand we're not going to get through these. I've got 3 questions that I think is really good to understand what your answer is here today. And then normally around like why is the role available? How is the team getting on? And what's the biggest challenge? Like that's not what I care about because I, I, all I want to learn about is what is all the risk that is going on? Like what is the challenges that they, they have? Then I would if you get to late stage at any point, you should have, you should be able to hair one another half an hour with the hiring manager just to just to answer questions or you send about all in the follow up e-mail. Be like, hey, here are all here are all the questions that I didn't get to ask and here are all the questions that I need the answer to as part of this interview process. Like that just stands out so quickly. Mastering the Closing Question and Delivering Constructive Feedback Yeah. Speaker 1 There is one question that is the only question you should be asking though, in my eyes. Hey, based on the interview today and my CV, is there any reason why I won't be progressing to the next stage? You you do like I have a point scoring system as part of the into process and messaging me before the interview, after the interview, a closing question. And then like there's other a couple of components. I test for curiosity through the questions. I test for coach ability. I do the coach ability element sometimes in the third stage interview, a Dr. resilience and teamwork is kind of, I buck it all into the same 1. So we we talk a lot about them as an individual. But that key closing question like, hey, based on today, like in this conversation in my CV and my application, is there any reason why you wouldn't be crossing me to the next stage? Try and get that feedback live on the call. When I was interviewing, when I went to the proto day, my question was, is there one reason why you wouldn't hire me now? And they basically said no. So I knew I'd got the job before I'd even been offered the job. Speaker 2 OK, so I agree, I love people asking that question. Question for you though. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 What do you do when it's been a bad interview and they ask that question? How honest are you? Speaker 1 Given honesty, that's an answer I get. I really do. I, I feel, I feel like it's so important to deliver the right feedback. Speaker 2 So how do you go about that? OK, so we just had an interview, Harry, and OK, I I wasn't really very I didn't really like give that much. I was a bit bland. I didn't really ask you that good of questions. I just sort of asked why, why that company like why are you there and that, but I don't go to the end like so based on how I said she's gone, am I, am I going to get through to the next stage? How would you respond to me? Speaker 1 Without laughing because it's you. Yeah, but I, I, I, I would go look, I, I think it's great that you asked that question. I know my almost every interview I give the same feedback. I always go, hey, so the first thing that would you, well, I go, would you be open to some feedback? That's why you always always buy into that, right? It's the same as like how I did feedback in the team. Then I would go into like, hey, so there's a couple of things areas that I would look to, to be working on 1st. You didn't message me before coming into this. You didn't look at my LinkedIn. They're normally key indications of intent, of wanting the role. There's when we went into some of the questions about you, again, I assume that that is the topic that you know best. It's you. So I would have expect some more detailed answers as part of that. I think when we got down into some of the more detailed questions where I was looking for you to articulate certain aspects, I don't think you did a great job in answering what I was looking for. Let me give you an example of what how I would have answered that as as a person and then be like, hey, I don't think I'm going to be progressing you to the next stage. But that doesn't mean that you can't use my network as part of that. But I would recommend you go and work on the things that we've just addressed because that's going to help you in the next interview. So keep asking a closing question, follow pre follow up, post follow up, and then just get really good at your answers around you and why you want to do this. And then some more of your detailed answers. And it's OK if you read off the screen, everyone's nervous, but don't focus on those few things that I think you will definitely be getting a BDRR role as part of that. So I feel like I've got that, I've got that feedback. Speaker 2 Done. Speaker 1 But I have to say even my, my first stage interviews are also very similar. I, I actually get them to talk about them loads. But the, the main bit of feedback I give is people messaging before and afterwards and the closing question. So my point system as part of the interview. So if I tell you, if I said, hey, Lauren, can I give you some feedback? Yes. Hey, you didn't answer, you didn't actually ask a closing question at this at the end. Can I share with you how I would have closed this call? And I get them to write, then they write it down. I said, hey, you might want to write this down the notes that I leave for the next manager who does the interview. Did they ask a closing question? And if they don't ask a closing question, then they don't progress to the final stage because that shows that shows coach ability. And I don't if I'm going to go out of my way to give you feedback and then you kind of just flip me off because you haven't taken on that feedback and you forget that that's not someone that I want to be hiring. So every. Speaker 2 Single person. Speaker 1 I've hired has not done that. The last the three hires here didn't send a pre message and didn't didn't do a closing question but both of them did it in the second second one and the third one. And that's why they got the job, because every time the feedback I gave them, they took it into their interview. Speaker 2 That's really nice. I like that. That's a really great point. I hadn't and thought of doing it and I think I love that approach, by the way, I've took a lot away from that and I will definitely be doing similar. I think one thing that I struggle with sometimes is that somebody has done a pretty good interview. They haven't wowed me and then they close me out and I actually do want to go away and think about it. And so I'm a bit like, Oh, I don't want to give overly positive feedback because if I, I do choose to not progress, I don't want to have misled them, but I don't want to be give mostly constructive because I don't want them to thank God, that was really bad. Like I'm not. And then they get put through and then they go like, I don't really get it. But that's definitely on me. And I could definitely come and think of a way of like giving feedback. That's that's fair. So that I'm not doing that. I think that's what it is to me. I just don't want anyone think in tunes hard enough. And I think that I don't want anyone to walk away from an interview being like, that was amazing. And then they get told no and they're like, yeah, you know, it's important to me that like I'm it's, it's a, it's a fair process. So I think I've, I've just struggled when it's been, I'm even not sure or it's no, I've always struggled with like the end. I don't want anyone to ever feel shit. So, but that's that's a big problem. Speaker 1 I think because I've been in so many interview processes where I've got to, I got to final stage of an interview that I was pretty hyped up about. I was like, I could see myself working for this person, could see myself working for this team. I was the, it was me and one other person final stage and we were discussing like what the package we're like. It was getting pretty far down and the feedback I got given as part of the rejection call was like, hey, we're looking for someone with who thinks a little bit differently than us, but also does it doesn't have as much experience or something like that. And I was like, okay, they ended up hiring someone with loads of experience and who was exactly like them. And that person ended up being there for nine months. Like I just really, really didn't like the feedback that I got that it didn't align with what they actually ended up hiring and stuff like that. It just like, it's just like just tell people straight right at the end of the day, like I'd rather people tell me, hey, that was a really poor interview. I, my first ever role I got as an AE when Gavin hired me, he called me and was like, how do you think that went? And I was like, no, I think that went pretty OK. He said, no, really shit, but you're not meant to know that that was a really shit interview because you've never interviewed for an AE role before. So I'm going to, we're going to do some weekend work and you're going to interview again on Monday. And if we were looking for these types of improvements and he saw something in May, which I'm very thankful for and he coached me through that process. And it doesn't, that's sometimes where you can be honest and just be like, hey, that interview didn't hit the mark, but I can see something in you. Why don't, why don't, why don't we progress you to next stage and see what that other person says? Because that might just be the lens that you need to or you give them that feedback being like, hey, I think I need to sit on this. There was something that was missing and I can't find work out, but I promise to give you that feedback as part of that. Speaker 2 No, I really like that. That's I think for me, which obviously isn't the intention. But now my my big take away from this is that like, I'm going to be, I'm going to be far blunter with my feedback. I think I've always been a little bit too protective. And actually you're right. They're like, I'm not benefiting people in the long run. So I will be, I'm going to be far better now. I mean, I'm not anything right now. So but I can think about it and actually like think about how I go about it. So yeah, I'm going to be much better at giving feedback because I've also been given, given wishy washy feedback. And that's what, and it's really irked me. And I've been like, it doesn't really make sense. Like I don't really get what you're saying because like that isn't true. And I actually was given feedback once and I challenged it because I went, that's not what I said. Yeah, I went, I said this. And they were like, then that's it. You got to have a sour taste in your mouth a bit like, oh, well, I'm a bit, I'm a bit irked now. Like you could have just said, sorry, there was someone better and then I'd be like, all right, fair enough. When you give me some like half assed reason as to like why I'm not the right candidate, that doesn't really add up. Yeah, that I agree. It's really frustrating. Speaker 1 I yeah, I have this mindset of I always look at how I want people to be speaking about me, which is like my goal for my team is when I'm out the room or they progress in their career, they always look back at me as one of the best managers they ever had. Like I have, I have a very like me complex about it, but it's the, but it's the same as interviewing. I still want to make an impression on someone, whether they're positive or it's a positive experience or a negative experience for them. That like you're leaving a little bit of a blueprint or something on them that they go, actually I got given this feedback from this random guy that allowed me to get this role and it, it sometimes can work. Yeah. And it is sometimes even if it works in the way that like, hey, I've been doing these interviews, I've got that feedback and I think I'm going to be shit at being ABDR because that was really intense and I didn't like the feedback that might push them back out of being wanting to be ABDR. And that sometimes might be the best thing for them. So I think it can, I think there's only a lot more positives that can come from that. Harry's Ultimate Interview Test: Discovery and Storytelling I think that what I think there's one thing again, I think probably our stages are probably quite similar. Like we go and speak to another manager second stage and they run their own process and then step three, maybe we can do a whole area on. And I think every manager does their final stage very differently. I do like you have to bring a cold calling strict, an e-mail that you would write and a prospect that you would learn prospect. So you have to try and do the BDR role again. You get a lot more grace if you've never done the role before. But I think my hard question that I deliver as part of an interview phase, which I've only ever had one person path is I asked them to teach me something I don't know. And the answer that people, people start normally just talk. People just start normally talking at me because they think talking is the right answer. But actually, if you think about it, if you were, if I asked you that question, the first thing that would came to my head when I got asked this for the first time was how the hell am I meant to know what Lauren knows? Because I've never spoken to her before. Speaker 2 Well, that was my first thing was like, I've got to ask a question. I've got to be like, do you know anything about this? Speaker 1 Yes, exactly. Speaker 2 And then, yeah. Speaker 1 And I've only ever had one person do that. I'm. Speaker 2 Not asked a good question, I like that. Speaker 1 And then the plan is that they do some general discovery, they figure out, hey, what you do and don't know. And then they tell you something about you don't know. And it's about that storytelling. So it tests active listening gun instinct and it just tells storytelling. Now what normally happens, which is really uncomfortable, but I think it's a great exercise, is they start talking at you and I go, Lauren, do you know about this? Do you know about this? Do you know about this? And you go and then they tell you and you go, I didn't actually know about that. But you didn't you didn't know that. I didn't know about that because you didn't ask a question. Would you be open to some feedback? And then you that I go, OK, we're going to do the exercise again, but I'm going to tell you how to do it. So you need to ask some discovery questions about that topic. And then you need to tell me the story again. And it might change depend on my answers. Now there's some people that again, then don't ask me any questions and just go straight into it. And it that shows like the panic and like the lack of active, active listening. But in theory, you should then go, hey, do you know anything about these types of dogs? No, Do you know something about this? And I've only ever had one person I've ever interviewed where they've gone, Hey, do you know about this? Do you know about this? Hey, would would you, if I told you about this, would would you know anything? No. OK, let me tell you a story about this. Speaker 2 Nice. I love that. That's a nice little. That's a good little way to end. I would say. That's a good tidbit. I love it. I'm going to start using that I think. Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm going to stay or watch. Why shouldn't I hire you? I'm definitely nicking that as my final kind of question. Speaker 2 Yeah, well, I mean, we didn't quite talk for everyone, but it's one of my favorite episodes because I think we've actually both just learned a lot from each other, which is why I, which is why we love doing this because we both, sometimes I think we'll just chat about stuff and we'll both go like God, like I actually never thought of that, which is why we started this in the 1st place. So we can actually just learn. So so I actually really enjoyed this chat even though it didn't know exactly what I think we thought it would be. Speaker 1 But next episode, let's just go through Stage 2 and Stage 3. Just do this as a Part 1 of Yeah nice. Speaker 2 There you go, there you go, Part 1 of a Part 2. Come in lies. Well, hurry. I hope you have a fabulous rest of your week and a lovely weekend. Speaker 1 You too. I hope you enjoy the the trip and everything else that comes with it. Speaker 2 Thank you very much. And as always, please like the episode. Please make sure you raise five stars. Give us a follow on Spotify and on YouTube. Speaker 1 And if you'd like to sponsor the podcast, then feel free to do so. Speaker 2 We'll say anything you want us to say. Thanks. All right, Thanks, guys. See you all in our next episode. Speaker 1 See you, Lauren. Bye, bye. Bye bye.