(soft music) Every business I've started, I would count the months, in my profitable, do I have enough to pay the bills? I mean, I've been in a situation enough times with startups where the bill collectors were calling on a continuous basis. And back then, you had answering machines, and it was like, you didn't wanna hit the button on the answer machine, 'cause, hello, Mr. Mark Cuban, I've left 17 messages. (laughing) (upbeat music) From NPR, it's how I built this, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Roz, and on today's show, how Mark Cuban figured out that something called the internet was gonna transform the economy and how he turned that hunch into millions and then billions of dollars. So if you know who Mark Cuban is, you've probably seen him on Shark Day. - Who are the sharks? (upbeat music) - They're self-made millionaire and billionaire investors who are entrepreneurs themselves. - And if you don't know the show, basically, there's a panel of investors who are the sharks, and they hear a bunch of pitches from people who are trying to start a business. - So do you like the idea, and would you wanna see a net increase of 30 to 50% in your company? - Again, what was my question to you? - And when Mark Cuban is doing the judging, he didn't sometimes be kind of a jerk. - Of course I like the deal, which is why I offered you a chance to close it. You should just shut up and take the deal. - Hallelujah. Instead of keep on selling, and you kept on trying to sell. - Okay, so this is the Mark Cuban that many of us are familiar with, self-made billionaire at age 40 owner of the Dallas Mavericks, but how he got to this point, here's the story. All right, so tell me, tell me who, like what was Mark Cuban like that day, he graduated from college, like paint that picture for me. - You know, I was a hustler, I was an entrepreneur. I didn't know, I remember making a list of potential industries I wanted to go into. - Can you just roll them down on a piece of paper? - I wrote them down, you know, cable industry, technology, all these things that I thought would be up and coming industries, and I was just gonna start applying for jobs until I got one. And my first job out of college was at Melon Bank in Pittsburgh, which I kind of backed into because they thought I had my MBA, but I didn't, I had just taken on my MBA class as starting my freshman year at Indiana. Then they were kind of disappointed that I didn't quite have the chops that they expected. - Yeah. - So back then, banks were just going through the process of converting from paper systems to digital systems. So my job was to do systems integration or systems conversions. - This is in the early 80s. - Yes. And so that's where I got my introduction to computers and really where I found that I really liked computers that I hadn't really taken at Indiana. - Yeah. - And then I quit and went back. - Why quit? - Just because I had no future there. It just wasn't for me, I just was not a good employee. But I tried to take initiative, I remember thinking to myself, I'm going to have an impact and I'm going to try to do things differently to stand out. And I started writing a little newsletter. I'm thinking, I'm-- - Why you were making-- - Yeah. - Why I was there, right? And it was just like this is my mindset. I'm going to have an impact. I'm going to do what I think-- - You were a newsletter for like other employees there? The bank? - Yeah, other employees at the bank. And if employees out the bank and of the bank, we were doing the conversion for. And I had a, it was lots of humor in it. And it was hysterical if I have to say so. And then all of a sudden it got back to my direct boss who basically had just dismissed me once they found I didn't have an MBA. And he just tore me a new one. He just ripped me and just like, and I'm like, okay, I don't belong here. - He's he thought you were like this annoying upstart kid who was just-- - Yes. - Kind of going over his head. - Yeah, basically, he was like, who the hell do you think you are? You know, and only he didn't use that nice language. And oh yeah, he just crushed me. (upbeat music) - So how did you end up in Dallas? I mean, you were a kid from Pittsburgh. You went to school in Indiana. How did Dallas happen? - I had a bunch of buddies from IU who went down there and they said the weather's amazing. The girls are hot and the economy is getting better. 'Cause you gotta remember, when I graduated from Indiana, I mean, it was not a good time. You know, there was a recession and this was pre-PC. And a bunch of my buddies had went down to Dallas and said, you gotta come check this out. - So what did you think you were gonna do down there? - I had no idea. I had no idea. I figured worst case, I'd have fun. I started a bar in my senior year in college so I knew how to bar 10. I understood the bar business. And so I figured worst case, I'd get a job working as a bartender and then see what came along. And that's exactly what I did. I got a job at a place called Alon's working as a bartender. And in the meantime, I would go through the help one it adds. There was an ad in the local paper that said, come to this agency and we'll help you place. And I'm like, look, I'm up paying a fee. And they're like, no, the employer pays, don't worry. So I got sent to a company called your business software and they started quizzing me and actually smart questions. But it was, you know, what do you know about PCs? And this was 1982 at this point. I'm like, PC's were not a thing. No people did not have their own computer. - No, no, nobody did, right? It was brand new. And I was like, I don't know a lot, but what I do know is how to open up a manual and read and teach myself and gave them the examples of what I taught myself at Mel & Bang. - Yeah. - And so I got a job for 18 grand a year plus commissions at your business software. - And so what did you have to do for the company? Like what was your actual job? - My job was, it was a retail store. And my job was to get there and open the store by 930, have all the PCs dusted, the windows cleaned, set up the software, and then learn all the software that we were selling so that when people came in, I could answer their questions. - So you would just tinker and read the manual and that's how you figured that out? - That's how I taught myself everything. Yeah, 'cause I could afford, I actually tried to buy a TRS-80 from Radio Shack and I didn't get approved for credit. I had already had my Sears credit card in my Discover card taken and cut up. And so, since I couldn't afford to buy my own PC, I would stay there late or I would take one of them home and just crunch the hours and teach myself. - Were you a good salesman? I mean, did you like-- - Oh, are you kidding me? - I was the best. I crushed it. - How are you the best? - You know, one of my strengths has always been being able to put myself in the shoes of any type of business. You got a shoe store, okay, I understand how that works. You got a bank, I understand how that works. You got an oil refinery, I'll figure out how that works. And so if I'm able to figure out how the business works and what makes it profitable, then I'm able to figure out how to apply the software to solve a problem. And the thing about the industry back then was, it was brand new to everybody. And that's what I would tell people. It was so new to everybody that if I put in the time to learn it, I could stay ahead of everybody. And new stuff was coming out every day. I'm not as much as you see today with apps and everything, but new stuff was coming out every day. And it wasn't that hard if I put in the time to keep up with it. So was that your plan like to just keep working for this company or whatever company came along? No, my plan was, I knew I was not going to be an employee long term. You knew you were going to do your own thing. Oh yeah, oh yeah. How did you know that? I just, just who I am, you know, who I was my entire life. I mean, I read that you, like you wanted to be rich from an early age. Yeah, I really did. But lots of kids want to be rich. There's a difference in wanting to be rich and then becoming rich. So what, what did you do as a kid? I just tried stuff, you know, from packaging baseball cards when I was nine or 10 years old and taking them down to the park and reselling them and marking them up, you know, buying and selling stamps, selling garbage bags door to door, you know, getting together, crew of kids and selling candies door to door. I mean, I remember thinking when I was 11 years old, literally looking out the window in our house thinking, you know, if I hustled, I could move out of this house and take care of myself and pay my own bills. Whoa. 11. Once I realized I could sell and once I learned that selling was about helping people, then it almost became easy. And then it was just a question of effort. (gentle music) So how did you, how did you start your first company and how old were you at the time? Um, first I got fired from your business software because I went and I sold a deal that was going to make me a $1,500 commission. And the customer wanted me to, you know, come pick up the check in the morning so that they could get started as quickly as possible. And so I said, yes. And then I told my boss, look, this guy wants to be Kevin. Wasn't that, Kevin wants me to come pick up the check or now because they want to get started, it's like, no, you've got to open up the store. I'm like, I've got Barbara doing that. He goes, no, you've got to open the store. And so I made the executive decision to go pick up the check thinking when I handed him the check, I would be okay, he fired me. So what did you do? You know, I took my commission because I was fired, I went and took some other customers I was working with and started a company called Micro Solutions. So describe what Micro Solutions actually, what did it actually do? We're a systems integrator. So what does that mean? What that means is we would take software and we would modify it to your particular business need install it and stay with it till it worked. So you were just doing this.
on your own. It was just you. I had a partner that helped do some software development, Martin Woodall, and he basically did our accounting. But more importantly, he was organized. He was an analyst. They come. His organizational skills is really what it really helped us because I didn't have to worry about the accounting getting done, checks getting written, all that kind of stuff. How did you get people to hire you? How did you go door to door? Would you cold call? I would network one success led to another. I went to a company called Architectural Lighting who I'd been talking to. I said, "Look, your software cost you 500 bucks. I don't have the money to buy it from the wholesaler. If you guys would advance being the money, I won't charge you anything to install it. I promise you that I'll make it work. For some reason, it doesn't. Then I will work for you or figure out a way to give you the money back." They did. It worked. Then I went to the next one and the next one and the next one. You got to realize my personality is such that I would start learning software working on an application than I was writing. I'd start working on it and I'd look up and it'd be 36 hours later. You just have workaholic. Not even a workaholic. I didn't look at and say, "Okay, I'm going to try to work 24, 36 hours or whatever." I looked at it and saying, "Okay, this is fascinating. This is intellectually challenging. I want to solve this problem. If I don't do it, I'm not going to get paid and I'm going to lose all this time. So solve the problem and that's what I would do." The thing about programming, you concentrate so, so, so, so hard that time flies. As the company grew and became more successful, when did you think, "Okay, this is it. I've made it." I remember being 26 and being at a bar with my buddy, lean him back and go, "I have $100,000 in the bank. Never in my wildest dreams that I think I would have $100,000 in the bank." Then it got, business kept on growing and things kept on getting better. Then I remember having $800,000 in the bank and this was the 80s and getting an offer to sell the company. This is somebody wanted to buy microsolutions. Yes. Who was it? If you remember, a company CompuServe by chance. Yes, of course. And they were part of H&R Block. So we sold it to CompuServe and named it the CompuServe Systems Integration Group. Sold it for $6 million, gave a chunk of it to my employees, ended up with $2 million, and Martin ended up with $2 million. So you sold the company for $6 million. You walk away with $2 million, and then you got to pay some taxes, of course. So you're like in your early 30s at that point? No, it just turned 30. And I remember finding a stockbroker, Raleigh Rawls, and telling him, "I want to invest like a 60-year-old man." He goes, "Why?" And what I told him was, I'd read this book, "How to Retire at the Age of 35." That was like a book I kept on my desk. That was my mission. And in this book, "How to Retire at the Age of 35," the whole theme was, if you live like a student, and save a million and a half dollars, as long as you're living like a student, you can live a long time just like this and really enjoy your life. And that was my mission. What happened along the way was, Raleigh was at Goldman Sachs. And because I knew the technology business and the local area networking business, and I started getting questions from all their analysts. Like what kind of questions? You just installed this synoptic shrouder, tell me about it, what do you think about it? What works? And I knew the intricate details of all these hard-worn software. And so I'm like, "Wait a minute, these guys are using my information to make decisions on the quality of these companies and stocks." He's like, "Yeah." I'm like, "Well, maybe I should start doing that too." And so I started buying these stocks and selling stocks just based off of my knowledge of the companies and knowledge of the products. And I was killing it. I mean, literally, you know, over the next four years, I made 20 some million dollars. Just by buying and selling sexual with that two million dollars. Yes. So like I'm assuming at this point you have nothing to worry about. Yeah, I had to worry about not screwing it up. Wait, you were still worried about screwing up at that point? Trust me. I had a healthy dose of fear. You know, every business I've started, I would count the months, you know, in my profitable, you know, do I have enough to pay the bills? I mean, I've been in the situation enough times with startups of my own where the bill collectors were calling on a continuous basis, you know. And back then you had answering machines and it was like you didn't want to hit the button on the answer machine because, hello, Mr. Coming up in just a minute, how Mark Cuban figured out that audio on the internet was going to become a huge thing and how that turned him from a millionaire into a billionaire. I'm Guy Ross and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR. It's How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Ross. So Mark Cuban taught himself computer programming. He started a software consulting company. He sold it for a few million and was officially retired at the age of 35. But that retirement, it did not last long because in the mid 1990s, Mark Cuban wound up starting another business. So what was it? How did it start? So my college buddy Todd Wagner came to me and we used to get together all the time and remember I was retired. So I was the guy that's go to lunch that's have a drink. Yeah. So we would get together and he's like, look, he's got this other guy he knows who's doing this thing with pages to try to get sports audio transmitted to pages. And I'm like, no, that's crazy. And I'm like, look, Indiana basketball. We right now, if we try to listen to Indiana basketball, we would have to have somebody in Bloomington, Indiana hold a phone, yeah, with to the radio, right? And then we would listen to it on the other side here in Dallas, which was crazy. There's got to be a way this new internet. And I've been playing with the internet. I'm like, there's got to be a way that I can figure out how to, you know, transmit audio and eventually video over the internet so that we can solve that problem. I mean, right now that that just seems totally obvious, right? But at that time, like in the mid 90s, did people think this was a good idea? No, hell no. People were laughing at me. We could get fired by a damn radio. Yeah. But was it technology? Was it technology even there? No, it wasn't at that point, but I figured I could figure it out. And we were, I was playing with NFS files and all this other stuff. You know, I went and bought, you know, a pack, Packard Bell computer for three grand. I set up an ISD in line at my house and just started playing and playing and playing and trying different things. And there were ways using wave files and stuff that you could transmit audio that had been done for a long time. But actually streaming it in over the internet in a more efficient manner that hadn't been done. So I set up a website and we called it on internet and then we went to the local, a local radio station here in Dallas, KLIF. I went to them and said, look, you know how cable TV is just blown up and now you can get any network anywhere. Do you have a TV? I think this internet thing is going to do the same thing for audio and eventually video that you're going to be able to stream things digitally all around the world. And we're going to really make the world a much smaller place and you can make your signal a much more global business. And here's what we need to do. I'm going to bring an eight hour VCR. And we're going to record your norm hits gets show and all this stuff, all your sports shows. And then I'm going to encode it and put it on audio net. So, so what did were people, do people start listening? Oh yeah, oh yeah. And people started coming and we started getting emails from all around the world going, oh my god, you just cured my homesickness. I'm living in Korea. You know, I'm living in Oklahoma or California and I missed Dallas and or I'm stuck in my office and now I can finally get A, B and C. And we're like, damn, we got something and you know, we just started taking off from there. So this is kind of a weird question, but just to remind people, like you were a multi-millionaire at this point, like you are sitting like burning the midnight oil, like sitting in front of a glowing screen night after night after night. Why? Why were you doing that? That's who I am because I wanted to win. Right? What does that mean? You want it to win? What do you mean when you say I want to do it against what? Or against who? Against you? I knew streaming was the future. There was no doubt in my mind. And you know, and that's who I was. I mean, I like the idea of, you know, people used to say I could see around corners. What's next? What's next? What's next? And there was no doubt in my mind that streaming was next. And I remember telling our employees, we're either going to be a multi-billion dollar company or we're just going to be friends and what's going to be a big flame out. But streaming is going to be enormous and we have a chance to own it. How were you making a profit? We wanted this to. I failed on my keep, every, my monthly profitability goals. Yeah, because you weren't selling anything, right? No, we weren't at that point. No, but it was, it was really obvious to me that this was going to be huge, enormous. If only just to reach offices because there was no other way to get media at your desktop at work. You know, you couldn't have a TV there. And, you know, most people couldn't have radios there. And so we were the media device and people were putting media, you know, PCs on every desktop and, and you know, you had the broadband bandwidth of corporations. And so, you know, it was a perfect
We just had to have the content. And so we just kept on growing and growing and growing. And so I went out and raised some money from friends. And it was like, what are we going to value this company at? We're like, well, the last company I sold after seven years for six million. Let's just cut that in half, three million. That'll be our valuation. And so we sold, you know, one percent chunks for $30,000 to our friends. When we sold the company, those $30,000 chunks were worth $22 million. You sold the company to Yahoo for how much? 5.7 billion in stock. Gotcha. Okay. So what percentage of the company did you own at that point when you sold it? 33% in 1999. Yes. It actually closed in 2000. Okay. You were a billionaire at this point. And you're thinking, okay, now I'm going to retire? Yeah. Kind of. Pretty much. And how did you start to think about buying the Dallas Maverick? How did that come about? I didn't. I didn't. How that came about was it was October or early November of 1999. And I'd been a Dallas Maverick season ticket holder for a few years. And I remember going to the game to start of the 1999 2000 season. And it wasn't a sellout. And I was excited, but nobody else was. And I remember looking around thinking, God, I can do a better job than this. And I was with my girlfriend, now my wife. And I remember telling her, you know, I can do a better job. And then, you know, ding, ding, ding, the light bulb went off. I'm like, wait, I can put my money where my mouth is. And so that's exactly what I did. I talked to my sales rep who put me connecting with guy named Mark Guyer, who was a former player working for Ross Brog, Jr., the owner, connected with Ross. I didn't even negotiate. I just said, you know what, whatever. And I paid him 285, which is probably 100 million too much. But yeah, so it wasn't like it was pre-ordained. It was planned. It was my all-time goal. It was, I've always been a basketball junkie. I've always loved the game. I played pickup. I still play pickup. It's in my blood. And, you know, it was just seemed like why not? So, so wait, you say you paid 100 million too much for the team? Yeah. When I bought the MAG's, everybody like, are you an idiot? It was the highest price ever paid for a sports team. 285 million dollars. And everybody thought I was a moron. I mean, it seems so crazy now because NBA teams are worth like, you know, more than a billion dollars. I want to ask you about the NBA because you get in a lot of trouble. Like, you have been fined a lot of money for, for like yelling at the ref. So do you, do you cause trouble for fun? Or do you, do you just do it because you like to fight? Um, just depends on the circumstance. If I'm playing pickup or if I'm playing in a, in a league, I'm never arguing over calls or whatever and never have, you know, if I'm in a league and there's a bad call, okay, that's the way it goes. You know, in the NBA, it's a lot different, particularly when I first got there. When I first got to the NBA, ref's really worked at managing the game rather than calling the game by the rulebook. And I remember early on reading something from the director of officiating back then who said, we don't call the game the, the same in the last minute as we do in the first minute, which is infuriated me to know and then from there, it was just like, okay, I'm on a mission to, to make this fair. And it, it set me off with a lot of those guys and probably cost me a championship in 2006. But, um, you know, it's come a long way since. And I think, you know, I'm better for it in the NBA's better for it since. Sometimes you yell at, at, at, ref's and stuff. I mean, do you, do you, that's my, but you know what? And to be honest, you know, if you just see me outside a game, I'm as mellow as you can, you can be, so you're not like an angry guy. No, you don't have many reasons to be angry. No, no, I have no reason to be angry. Um, but during the game, that's where I let out my stress. It's like when I played, used to play rugby, like during a rugby game, I'm going to try to beat the hell out of you and then we'll drink afterwards. But that was where I let out my stress and, and during the Mavs game, you'll see me yelling scream. And, you know, that's my, my stress reduction. Is that the same thing on Shark Tank because you can, you can actually be kind of mean to contestants. Yeah. Right. Why is that? Well, depends what I'm talking to. If there's an entrepreneur who's got their life tied up in something, I'm not going to be mean. Right. I'm going to be supportive and I'll come up with suggestions, even if I'm not investing. But if you're trying to scam me, if you're trying to pull a cookie, or your products a scam, I'm going to nail you, you know, because I know that people see these products and they'll go to buy them. You know, we had one on the end of this season where it was called Pavluck, I think, where they had a Fitbit-looking device that shocked you. And the whole idea was a version therapy so that if you don't want to smoke, you shock yourself when you're getting ready to smoke, or shock yourself when you're getting ready to eat, whatever it is that you're trying to avert, and it would train your brain. And when they tried to show the science, they gave all the science for a version therapy in general, but nothing specific to their product. And I called them out on it. You know, it was like, okay, why don't you just use a rubber band, you know, and snap yourself when you are going to smoke. And so those situations, I'm going to crush you. If your heart's into it, and your heart's in the right place, and your efforts there, I'm going to support you. You've invested like almost $20 million, I guess, in short-tank companies. Have you made money yet off of any of those? Have I gotten $20 million back? No. Have I gotten, you know, if I was going to value it, what I have more than $20 million of value, absolutely. So out of the 70 give or take companies that I've invested in, I'd say, two are out of business, two are out of business, and just aren't smart enough to know it. And then the next, you know, the top 12 that are making 500,000 or more in profit per year, and have paid me back a lot of money or reinvesting a lot of that money into growth. And then there's others in the middle that are just growing and running their businesses the way they should. And, you know, we'll see if they click and take off or not. You know, Mark, it's kind of amazing because unlike other people who have been on the show, it doesn't seem like becoming a billionaire was weird to you. Like, I mean, like all of a sudden you're, you know- Oh, no, it was weird. Trust me. It was weird. How was it weird? It is so much money to this day. It wears me out. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, I knew I'd be wealthy. You knew that. You just knew it. Yeah. Look, I mean, from the time I was 25 on, I was making money and saving money and- And increasing my net worth, you know, on a monthly basis. But to this day, I remember- I mean, yesterday, I remember being in my backyard and my kids are there and- And just thinking, you know, I never would have imagined. Never in a million years would I have imagined that I'd be in this position, you know, and just trying to appreciate it. It is crazy. If you woke up tomorrow and found out that everything was gone, all your money, your wealth, your house, like it was gone. Well, you had to start over. What would you- That would you do? I'd get a job as a bartender at night and a sales job during the day and start working. And probably make some of a back, do you think? Yeah, I mean, could I be a billionaire? That bill- To be a billionaire, you got to get lucky. Right? I started my company, you know, at a time when the stock market was going nuts. And that- That was my luck. And I was smart enough to do it, smart enough to run it, smart enough to execute on it, smart enough to hedge it. But no question there was luck involved. And so, you know, could I become a multi-million-year million-er again? I have no doubt. Because I would work hard enough. And I look- And I don't mean that to sound disrespectful. There's a lot of people who work really hard. But in sales, you know, knowing what my sales skills are and the products that I'm able to sell, I think I could find a job selling a product that had enough commissions or rewards for me. And then leverage that up to start a company somewhere somehow. And then, you know, build some wealth. Now, maybe not the same, but enough to pay the bills. Our Cuban is the owner of the Dallas Mavericks. By the way, for many years, he really wanted to learn how to dunk a basketball like Michael Jordan, and he tried, and he trained, and he tried, and he trained. And at the age of 37, after years of training, he finally did. He finally dunked the ball. Hey, thanks for listening to this show this week. If you want to find out more or listen to previous episodes, you can go to howibuildthis.npr.org. And if you have a chance, please subscribe to our show through iTunes and let other people know about it. You can also write us directly at
[email protected]. Or tweet us. Let's add howibuild this. Our show is produced this week by Rumteen Auroblui. You also compose the music. Thanks also to Niva Grants, and as Meshkin Poor and Jeff Rogers. I'm Guy Raaz, and you've been listening to HowiBuildThis from NPR. Hey, thanks for sticking around to the very end of the show because this is the part of the show where we've been hearing from you guys about the companies and ideas that you're building. Thousands of you, literally thousands of you have written in. And if you haven't, please do tell us your story. You can go to build.npr.org. That's build with a D where you can follow the instructions. It'll tell you exactly what you need to do. Okay, that's out of the way. Here's this week's story. So my name is Marney Peters, and I live in Gastonia, North Carolina, which is about 20 miles outside of Charlotte where Marney works as a massage therapist. Anyway, back in 2009, Marney hits a fly from North Carolina to Maryland and she was with her two years ago.
little kids. And one of the kids, it was her baby son, was swaddled to her chest, and her other kid, her 18-month-old daughter, was strapped into the seat beside her, and she was demanding to play with her toys. And each toy I gave her, she'd drop on the ground. And because I had my son wrapped around me, I couldn't bend down and get them. And so during the flight, the toys kept slipping off the tray table and rolling down the aisle, the crayons and stuffed animals and figurines all over the plane. And so as I was sitting there closing my eyes going, okay, what would help me in the situation? I started to make this product in my head. And what came to mind, at least at the beginning, was an inflatable lap tray for kids. But the more that we traveled, the more I realized that they needed a place to put their things, that they need a pillow, that they have to be able to carry it themselves. A bag, a pillow, a tray table, all in one. So Marney started to sketch out some ideas. She went to friends and family, she raised about $20,000. And then she went looking for a manufacturer. And there was really only one company that was willing to work with me as a small inventor. And they were marvelous. For 18 months, we went back and forth with samples and prototypes. And finally came to an agreement this past spring and was able to actually get the first shipment at the end of August. And Marney's invention, she calls it pet pack. That's PET, P-A-K. It is a stuffed animal that you unzip the belly and it's a lap tray. And you can unzip the back of its neck and it has a little pack that you can put your books in your trinkets and toys. And then you can turn it over and it becomes a little pillow. It's kind of like a stuffed animal transformer. And right now there are four designs. There's an elephant, a panda, a lion, and a pig. And so far Marney says she sold about 50 of them, mainly on Amazon. Everyone really wants to see me succeed. And because I've surrounded myself with these pretty amazing people, my friends, my family, it keeps me going even when you have those entrepreneurial slumps where you just go, "Okay, I don't know if I can do this anymore." And every time I feel like that, I have somebody behind me going, "Yes, you can. You've made it this far. You can keep going." Nowadays whenever Marney travels with her kids on a plane, all their stuff stays together in one place on that tray. If you want to check out PET packs, you would look like Marney is currently selling them on Amazon. You can find them by going there typing in P-E-T-P-A-K in the search box. If you want to tell us about the company or idea, your building, go to build.npr.org that's build with AD.npr.org. And thanks. As the end of the year approaches, a lot of you have been asking about the best way to support how I built this. So first of all, thank you for asking. And it is pretty easy to do. You go to stations.npr.org. You find your local station and you make a year end contribution. Or even better, you become a regular monthly donor. And when you do, please tell them that how I built this sent you. So find your local station at stations.npr.org. It takes like two minutes. It's totally tax deductible. And please do tell them how I built this sent you. Again, that's at www.stations.npr.org. And thanks.
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