Sensory Regulation with Joanne Seymon

The neurodivergent woman podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. Hello, this is the neurodivergent woman podcast. Hi, I'm Monique Mitchellson and I'm a clinical psychologist and I'm Michelle Livock and I'm a clinical neuropsychologist. Michelle and I met at work and bonded over a shared love of feminism and yoga. We both saw the need to provide a free resource to adult neurodivergent women and so the neurodivergent woman podcast was born. Michelle is neurotypical and Monique is neurodivergent and we bring our clinical expertise and lived experience to the topics we explore. This is a podcast where we center and showcase neurodivergent women from all walks of life. Covering autism to ADHD and everything in between, we aim to educate and inspire women who think differently. I'm really excited to have Joe Seaman on the podcast today. So Joe is an ADHDR occupation therapist and co-founder of ChicoFigures. Joe is passionate about developing appropriate sensory tools for teens and adults with a focus on harm minimization and emotional regulation and she uses both her lived experience perspective on her background in occupational therapy to match sensory needs to the right sensory support. Now Joe you and I actually met at the ad part the Australian ADHD Professionals Association conference last year and I remember walking into the conference room and just seeing it's really cool table with this array of fidgets all over it and we got into a really awesome conversation that just kind of bounced back and forth and we were so excited to play with and you know telling me about all of the fidgets that conqueres fidgets. Thank you so much for having me, Minne. Yes I remember my biggest memories you had the most gorgeous nails. I remember them being pink and they were stunning and you were holding a pink a pink fidget that just looked amazing. How's that been your spicy? Yes I really do love the colour pink to be honest and actually use nails as almost a stim toy in themselves like the sparkliness and the shiningness love it and like looking at it and yeah it's just so perfect you know having matchy matchy with the pink outfit, the pink nails and the pink fidget. No and it was such a great opportunity to actually just connect with other like-minded clinicians and humans that have a passionate a passionate around ADHD or neurospiracy field of practice and very very very affirming. So Jo you've been an occupational therapist for over 20 years and you brought that experience to the business, Kikers, fidgets but you're no longer practicing as an occupational therapist but we thought we've really loved to have you on because we haven't had an occupational therapist come on the podcast yet and just really wanted to kind of say um yeah some of your expertise in this area and talking about sensory regulation um we thought it would be really helpful to our listeners. Yeah I think thank you and it's interesting it was a bit of an accidental journey into doing what I do now. My background as an OT was in community health and an aged care. I worked a lot with palliative care so that was sort of my field of interest and expertise I guess throughout my career but I have two children and both are autistic and so it was very much a journey of family discovery of sensory that kind of led us to become I guess specialists in the field of sensory and sort of what that looked like and it was a nice pairing. Initially it was really just me as a mum exploring it with my son and it was great to be able to draw on my occupational therapy background to sort of pack his needs although you can't be your own child's occupational therapist I discovered that was that was the only thing I couldn't do for him but in terms of exploring his needs and as we sort of found he got older he needed something a little bit more suitable for his age rather than sort of toys and the sort of typical fidgets that we're out and about and so we started making things for him. We had no intention of actually creating a business it was really just for him. So that's how cocoa fidgets were started it was really just identifying needs for our son and then it sort of rolled into doing little markets for Kai and through those markets we established other people's had different sensory needs so we sort of explored that sort of a pairing of a mum a son and the OT background and it sort of just was a sort of a perfect pairing. I love that so much and you know it sounded like it kind of naturally evolved through your own exploration and then you know yourself I think it sounds like you got your diagnosis through perhaps exploring your children and their diagnoses and their needs which is often the case for a lot of adult late diagnosed neurodivergent women I would say. Oh absolutely I honestly would not have peaked myself as neurodiverse but in going to conferences ADHD conferences in particular as I'd sit and listen I'd be like oh my goodness that's me oh my goodness that's me oh my goodness that's me because it's just my brain I thought everybody's brain felt like it was on fire and had 10,000 conversations layering in at once and and hearing even just language around things like doomspiles it it was like oh there's a name for it and I have them everywhere so yeah it was very much through exploring things for Kai that I became more aware and as I got older too I think I've found it's I don't know whether it's the craziness of running a business or whether it's parry menopause or the collision of both but as I became more aware that I was very much ADHD I became less able to mask as well so all the sudden things that I could do or could push past all of a sudden I found I was less able to and so I really just wanted to explore the possibility of getting some support because my brain did feel like it was on fire whether or not medication might help and so I went for assessment that was probably the prime reason and how I hated my assessment came back with this surprise of you both autistic and ADHD and I was like what and it's funny as I shared with I've got a number of friends that both autistic ADHD and they said oh yeah we win you and so rocked my foundation because I guess I had the the framework of my son as an autistic and we're quite different so for me it was kind of rediscovering myself and kind of peeling back the layers and actually understanding and it made so much sense because one of the things I find for me is the two aspects of me but there's the ADHD part of me which I feel like is the dominant part it's the crazy messy all over the show my brain's on fire hamster wheel thing that's going on in my world and then there's the autistic self that needs the exact same breakfast every day and if I don't I don't cope you know certain things I struggle with and you know there was a lot of things that made a lot more sense when I understood that aspect of who I was to yeah I really relate to what you said about feeling like you have the two kind of sides of yourself I think you know when you're an ADHD you know sometimes I feel like if you have identified one but not the other there isn't missing peace in the puzzle of understanding yourself and understanding your needs and what works for you because sometimes it can feel like your brain is fighting for itself and you know you were sharing that you feel like you're a bit more maybe ADHD dominant and then autistic as well so I'm more autistic dominant but then there's the ADHD as well so you know I often see kind of those different flavors in people where one might be a bit more dominant than the other but then they kind of fight and take turns as well [Music] Occupational therapy or OT is often a recommendation for many of our neurodivergent kids and adults can you share with our listeners particularly those who may not have heard of occupational therapy before can you explain how occupational therapists can support neurodivergent kids and adults and how they can work with neurodivergent fault in an affirming way one of the things I love about the profession of OT is that it's very much it's very functionally based so it's and it's it's about meeting a person where they're at rather than kind of coming in with your own framework and saying this is this is what you should be doing or need to be doing it's very much about understanding where a person's at what's important to them what's meaningful to them and and then going from there rather than the other way around so it's more person-centric so it's less about your struggling with this therefore we will do this it's more about what things are impacting what you'd like to be doing or need to be doing or hope to be doing and it's a strength-based model but also very much looking at accommodations and thinking outside the square to a guy I found most OT's I've worked with both when I was training and also clinically very creative problem solvers yeah definitely I mean as a psychologist I work with adults and it has been a little bit harder for me to find occupational therapists that really understand autism and ADHD and want to work with and do work with adults because a lot of the services are still mainly based on working with children and so yeah like we'd love to see more people going into a adult work as adults often still need support as well from select spam particularly biolate diagnoses and have never had any RT in court yeah often referring to an occupational therapist can be really helpful in terms of helping ADHD is an autistic poke with how they can kind of get their day-to-day activities and the day-to-day routines actually working in a way that works with that and is taking less of a toll and making things more accessible and so I found it's been really helpful for helping people with that like practical stuff and support and then also referring to occupational therapists to do a sensory profile particularly for autistic clients I've found has been very helpful for helping clients understand their own sensory profile and what are the triggers and what are the things they can do to regulate themselves often people don't realise some of the things they seek are their sensory preferences so often when I'm talking to people it's interesting one of the most common or there's a couple of really common things that people lean into I find for sensory in court particularly when they're having trouble regulating one is pain very frequently I find pain is something that's very grounding it helps bring the mind to the present it can help shut down what's going on in the head or in the emotional space that you're holding at the time and so understanding whether it be pulling at hair or picking at nail beds it can get more extreme than that so an onsite or sort of cutting can be incredibly prevalent I have the the privilege of people sharing privately with me their challenges and probably one of the things that I find most rewarding is being able to just hold that space with them and reassure them that it's really common and it's not something that necessarily needs to be fixed I don't know if that that's going to be the most popular opinion finding a safe option is absolutely key and that's probably where I focus is making sure people have a safe option for exploring that and also the understanding behind the why why they seek it and how it's helpful just to make them feel less broken so and it's just looking at different options we've developed a number of tools that give a fairly significant amount of arch but there are other things and the other sensory thing that a lot of people seek is oral input so again it can look like chewing on fingernail chewing on a quick it can be chewing their clothes it can be grinding teeth even over talking I think as an ADHD female I think I tend to talk a lot and the more stressed or the more dysregulated I am the more I do that without taking breath because the jury is actually the closest moving joint to the part of the brain that drops adrenaline and cortisol as we dysregulate we release chemicals that you know engage that flight part and movement actually helps drop the chemicals to turn that down again and so the jaw being the closest moving joint is the most efficient way to actually sort of facilitate that process in the brain and so it's really common and often people don't realise that that's why they do those things like that that's why they chew so chewing gum is actually bigger than any of my fidgets suggest or any sensory tool chewing gum if if people tolerate it a lot of people don't tolerate chewing gum in the mouth so we often seek crunchy foods and that's again in that same family it's giving the the jaw a really good workout I tend to seek out crunchy foods I'm not so much a chewy person but those things can really help and the other thing about chewing gum sorry I've gone off on a tangent on chewy is that it's a really readily accessible tool on hand so again you know you don't always have a sensory support with you or you might have forgotten it or lost it if you're anything like me others everything so you know you can always get there's usually a 7-11 around the corner or a supermarket or a colleague or someone will have some chewy on hand so it's helpful to know that they actually really is a useful tool and often when I tell you know talk to people through this they say oh my goodness you know my you know my child actually is always on wanting to have chewing gum so and it's one of the reasons why we move so much when we're struggling to regulate anyone that particularly that is ADHD has heard a thousand times over stop moving you driving me crazy it's like it's something that we've heard a lot of and it's actually that movement the movements actually the brain super clever way of helping the person with ADHD attend and so counterintuitively we actually have to allow ourselves to move in order to be more present to be able to use the front part of our brain which is what we need when we're talking in social contexts or thinking or learning yeah I think that's so cool like to hear that information about chewing and the jaw moving actually helping people self-regulate to me that makes so much sense and what you're talking about with the chewing and seeking out you know crunchy foods I've heard that from so many people as a self-regulation tool and even movement in general like I know for myself it's actually being hard to stay still the older that I've gotten so I found like this kind of I guess idea all myth around people growing out of ADHD you know they can repress their high productivity and sit still when they become adults but actually I'm finding it harder because as you get old and life gets a bit more repetitive and you kind of have accumulated a lot more experiences by the time you're in your 30s 40s 50s and onwards and life can almost get a bit more repetitive and boring which is hard if you're an ADHD or no don't you mean in that I know I can completely relate to that yeah I just think it's it's kind of interesting and I think what you're talking about with the chewing gum too is there are some fabulous tools like for example I've seen chulri and you know like things that you can put in the end of your pencil that you can bite down on and there's different what's the right word for it there's different kind of strengths of the texture of it as well so if you want to bite down really hard or you chew a lot there are things that are kind of give you that feedback and then the softer ones I guess thinking about what you need to regulate yourself think back I often think back to kind of school and I think it's a good thing to reflect on what did you do as a child and in primary school and high school to regulate yourself and often people would chew on their hands or chew on their rubbers and things like that and chew on their hair and you know their school uniform so that makes a lot of sense and actually like I love the fact that you brought up the different strengths in the chulri supports we use arc or I tend to recommend arc because they do they have the three different strengths but one of the things that's a bit count again cano intuitive that I'd love to touch on with two supports because I get asked that question about what one would you recommend I chew three things so I've gone harder I'm still chewing through them one of the things it's really interesting is that it makes sense that we think that if we're an aggressive chore we're turning to destroy two supports or whatever it is that we're using to support that need that we go harder and harder you know you need harder support cano intuitively it's actually often that you need softer and also hollow so I usually someone says to me where would you recommend I start or what would you recommend I usually say start with a hollow two and definitely not the hardest particularly if we're the sort of human that like bites the inside of our mouths or our fingers or um straws is another one because it's the collapse that our mouth's seeking and when the mouth doesn't get the collapse and the give it goes harder at the chew trying to get the collapse so it gets more aggressive on the chew so sometimes if someone's really destroying a chew doing what doesn't make sense and that's go softer and hollow actually allows the mouth to get the supported needs or the sensory input it needs and it has a better lifespan and it's just it's more satisfying for that it's not a conscious process it's it's very much I think it happens on a moral gunny level I think it's so good that you're explaining that for people because I wouldn't have thought about it but I think having that understanding of the different input that people are seeking to regulate their sensory system yeah like hearing about those different things that's really helpful and I think will help our listeners you've mentioned a couple of things you've mentioned pain which I also see in a lot of neurodivergent clients people seeking out pain to block out overwhelming thoughts and feelings that makes sense because of maybe not having other strategies or knowing how to regulate themselves you've talked about the chewing can you tell us about how the differences in sensory processing can impact neurodivergent people like what are some of the differences in sensory processing that you would see in an autistic or ADHD person compared to a neurological person that's a great question I tend to not think of it as them and us I very much work within a framework when I'm I'm packing it for somebody is like what is it that they're seeking rather than your autistic therefore this might be what supportive I ask the same questions really whether it's been neurodivergent one of the things I found in COVID to the need for sensory supports became a lot more mainstream it wasn't necessary the vast majority of people I'd spoke to either had a trauma background neurodiverse backgrounds or struggling with mental health in general but through COVID and I think it's persisted we're in Victoria so we were you know locked down central but very much found that the need and I find that the vast majority is our sensory and we all had different sensitivities I think often the sensory dial is turned up for neurodivergent people and again that's not for everybody but I would say it's more common that that dial is more acutely assumed not just in senses but also in a lot more from an empath perspective as well like I know I feel things like if you tell me you've fallen over to her in a I get a sharp pain in my tummy I can't watch TV because I literally feel the feels of everything that I'm watching so I think the dial seems to be turned up for me when I'm exploring sensory needs for somebody I'm very much I'm packing the individual I ask them yeah like you were saying what have you sought out when you were a kid what do you do now do you is it picking is it chewing what do you do when you're feeling sad what do you do when you're feeling overwhelmed because it's often different in in different contexts for me when I'm feeling overwhelmed pains what regulates so I use tools that give me bite I guess would be the way I describe it for myself just again such a you'll often find those that find pain regulating tattoo a lot you usually don't even need to tell me that they seek pain as a as a regular leave tool and often you'll heal and say oh yeah when I'm feeling really overwhelmed I'll go out and get myself a new tattoo there's a reason why yeah okay things as well oh yes exactly you're getting piercing I remember you actually showed me one of the tools to like help people regulate it was this spiky bracelet and a spiky ring as well and I found that really interesting and they and they can be just worn and people don't even know what they are and you can be using them while you're talking to someone and someone's completely not aware that it's it's being used just to just a ground and stay present and regulated we've actually got I'll have to send you one I've got a new tool that's just hit it's taken me a year and a half two years to sort of put this as an overshare I really should I'll probably get myself in trouble with this one okay so we had to get a mold made for this tool so it's one that you use and so it's on the key rings rather than because some people don't like the constriction of having something on their person the first prototype came and it's a pretty big deal to make a prototype in in a cost perspective it usually costs about $10,000 to a mold so it's pretty expensive and it's a one hit wonder like the mold has to be right and if it's not right you've got to go again same cost again anyway we've never ever not had a mold work the first time and I got the prototype of it's called the spiky ring so it's a spiky and it's a key ring so I put the words together and the first time I got it didn't hurt enough and I was really disappointed and so I met with a factory manufactured it for me and I said doesn't hurt them up as much and they're from overseas and they don't really have as much context for you know the same conversations around pain and regulation and and so they're like do you want blood and I'm like no no just under blood and so this really strange conversation to be saying I just wanted just under blood that's a bit of a rush all we should so I wanted to call it job just under blood but again I thought he would ask me where the name came from I'm like I'm in trouble but the second mold of this particular product actually nailed a thin goodness and yeah it only arrived about four weeks ago it's yeah like I love it it's got one picking one picking aspect and the other ones more bitey so when you hold it in your head it's one of those I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right shark romance so there's a spiky mepso people lie on a walk on a Shakti mat yeah I love them actually have one at home and it's really great because it gives you like a quite a strong sensation like you you kind of lying on a bed of plastic nails yes very strong sensation but I find that it tends to induce the relaxation response in the body so I can almost full of sleep on this very plastic nails yeah one aspect of this new tool is literally that so you've got a portable hand version and a lot of people have been using it they put it under their feet as well if they need I hadn't thought to do that but so I've had quite share that that's what they've been doing with it so yeah and you know reflecting I guess on the strong relaxation response that comes from using things like the Shakti mat or you know like a spiky bracelet which are hard reduction ways of getting that pain response without creating permanent damage like through breaking your skin and things like that one of the reasons that people can sometimes sick pain out is physiologically inducing a pain response also releases like an opiate like effect in the brain because your brain says oh we're in pain let's release some pain-releading formlines so yeah I think it's important to you know talk about this and you know there can be various reasons why people do different sub-regulation strategies that involve pain some of them will be more emotional or you know mental health or you know there can be a trauma component but for a lot of autistic people in the secure life yeah it can actually be a sensory regulation component more often than not. Hmm absolutely it's helpful for people to understand that that's it's okay it's okay to need that high sensory input is often how I'll refer to it it's just a high sensory input and cold sits in the same family and I find a very big portion of Euro divergent individuals like the temperature to be quite cold my son runs his segment of the house at about 16 degrees all the time and I often recommend putting tools we I mean a lot of our tools are metal I'm putting them in the fridge because the temperature can be very grounding as well and I think I feel cold and I haven't done research on it but I feel like cold and pain sit in the same family yeah that's so interesting um like I do know anecdotally from hearing from a lot of people that I've worked with and people in my life and as I've gotten older myself like heat can in particular hot weather and humid weather can be quite dysregulating for neurodivergent people you know that could be sometimes because of having cold current health conditions like put all brave disease but it can actually be like the center of feeling of sweat on your skin can be unbearable for some people it can actually be just that it's creating a level of overload that people aren't even aware of and you're not realizing is distressing for them until it gets out of the heat way or until they go into air conditioning. Hi it's Manikia I have some exciting news I teamed up with a fellow neurodivergent clinical psychologist called Jennifer Kemp to write a book it's called the neurodivergent skills workbook for autism and ADHD cultivate self-compassion live authentically and be your own advocate by new harbinger publishers it's out on the first of July this year so spread the word one of the things I found most surprising since being diagnosed as a late or late identified adult is that I'm less able to regulate like I initially felt like I got more neurodistinct if that makes sense or the characteristics sort of frightened and I think it was either masking dropped but also that self awareness that things were rather than just pushing past them I was honoring them in myself and recognising that it's okay that I'm struggling with that that made it harder for me just to push past it. I'm a lot kinder to myself too I find that I'm able to probably the best way of describing it would be be kinder to myself when I'm not coping and and recognise like an example it's just a little example I was driving recently a long trip and I became acutely aware that I'd not put my hair up and that the sensation of the hair on the back of oh just on me even just talking about it it's freaking out was I was not coping with it now usually all throughout life I would just continue on but it was just so significant for me after a few minutes I had to actually pull over and I didn't have a hair tie so I got a mask we all have lots of those these days so I pulled a cord off a mask and put my hair up but just recognising that I needed to you know I needed to accommodate myself rather than actually just suck it up and push past it. Yeah absolutely you know and I think particularly for late diagnosed women even having a thing about things that are so normalized in society and culturally for us around the expectation to end makeup all the time and have your hair done and be wearing jewelry and being you know well-groomed actually you know for quite a few particularly like autistic people wearing makeup for them or even putting on moisturiser or sunblock can be very sensory distressing and you know sometimes that's hard because that grows against some of those social norms around you know how you're supposed to present and even things like wearing jewelry you know there'll be sometimes where people have said to me I used to wear a lot of jewelry but I just find the feeling of jewelry particularly on you know maybe different parts of their bodies so maybe they can't wear a necklace but they can wear small stud earrings or the feeling of rings is unbearable for them or bracelets you know it's unbearable you just kind of I think knowing that all these little things can add up and create a sensory load and I've had people talk about how they haven't been able to work in certain workplaces or pursue a career that they wanted because the work uniform was made from polyester and was unbearable for them and I've heard of both adult men and women talk about how you know their late diagnosed when when they were at school they weren't able to wear the school uniform it was unbearable and they were getting trouble all the time from not wearing the shoes or not wearing the socks even just having a think about some of these things it can be like again it's all adding up to the person I love the way you talked about it in terms of sensory load or increased load because that's exactly what happens like if it's hot like you're mentioning before all of a sudden that increased load can then mean something that you can cope with normally you can't today and so it's also important to remind ourselves that sometimes we might only have like 30% to give or we can only tolerate X amount and that's 100% of today's best it's not that you're only giving 30% you're actually giving 100% of what you have available today and again it's just that self-conscious because I think one of the things that can happen we tend to be very harsh on ourselves we offer our worst critics I definitely overthink things I can just say slightly the wrong thing and I'll ruminate on it inside my head for at least the rest of the day sometimes you know way longer than that and it's probably something that the other person's not even thinking about so I think that that self-reflection and that self-talk can be so so loud to us sometimes so just being kinder to ourselves and understanding and that's one of the things I think it's really good to be able to talk to others about the good the bad the ugly we often get accused of oversharing but I think in that oversharing we get to hear or bear witness to other people's journeys as well and hear that we're not really that alone it might look differently for you as it does for me but it's there's still that shared understanding I almost get like really excited in those moments of overshare because you sort of it just it lights me up because you kind of feel like it's kind of like a thread that sits between the two of you and I don't know how to explain it other than that it just sort of feels like this this thread that lights up and I feel yeah feel less alone and feel very validated and more okay yeah absolutely like I think hearing people's stories and their experiences it can normalize what people are going through particularly if you've gone through life feeling different and feeling you know quote unquote weird and like you don't fit in and then you you suddenly hear other people talking about things that you felt with thought or experience that it makes you feel like you have that sense of belonging which I think is really important for all of us you know as human beings and it's really good for our mental health as well what are some further sensory accommodations and strategies or tools that people can use to help themselves with regulating their emotions their executive functioning and the sensory processing and how can we normalize these in different environments like school universities the work wow it's the shot I think the first thing is just understanding that that they are important rather than the tools themselves that that fundamental understanding that sensory is an aid and that sensory tools aren't a distraction they're a way of us both grounding and gaining movement to help keep the brain less in its flight flight state so that you can access the bit that needs to do the thinking and learning and the processing so I guess firstly I think it's just that that people need to understand that sensory tools are not a distraction they're for the vast majority who use them just like glasses understanding that things like we've touched on chewing gum is equally a valid sensory support or it can be deep deep pressure can be a sensory support or it can be high sensory input i-a-panel cold it could be something soft and squishy the other thing is that they don't have to look like toys they can be interchangeable so there can be things that you can use that are toys and repurpose and something wrong with that if you know if you're into squish melis you only have to go to a kamikon have you ever been to a kamikon no I haven't because I probably find it a bit overwhelming but I do have to say that the kind of basket full of squish melis in kama gets me every time every time I go to kama I just think to get it over and hug them all and walk up to them and they're just so cute I like the feel is so perfect yeah I just love them a lot I see like the other new divergent people in the store are all crowded around the squish melis lay and like trying to like you know give each other a look and you're like yeah yeah my tribe and I see you well you just go to a kamikon sometime like I'm not into you know DC comics and all of the things day and day that's as far from my interest as it could possibly be but surprisingly so we exhibited last year for the first time at kamikon and literally I've never been I think there's a force field and unless you're a divergent you can't enter and I've it just was the most validating gorgeous like I was like so let out with excitement and I I expect it to be more overwhelming because I often find when I'm at events my cup gets depleted pretty quickly because I have to be concentrating it on and people are sharing really personal stuff and there can be a crowd waiting to be served but I don't want to leave the person on with and so there's a lot going on for me lots of layers that make it really hard for me to push through I lean into a lot of sensory sports when I'm at those but at kamikon it was quite the opposite I came away so energized and excited because it's just literally a building full of Euro divergent individuals living their best life doing them and unapologetically rocking whatever it is that you know lit them up which was amazing so I said great but you know it's totally fine to walk around with a squish mellow if that's as an adult that's what you want to do but it's also that there are plenty of sensory supports out there and that's one of the things that we've I guess really focused on is having tools that I really discrete that don't bring attention to somebody also just understanding you know things like sound different levels of sound there's the loops that people can use to help filter so one of the things that people and or vibes we have vibes the loops are much funky a version of but sound travels in bandwidths and high and low frequencies other things that tend to trigger us the most and the way that noise filtering devices like loops and vibes work is that they take out the high and low frequency oh they dampen it a lot so that that main bandwidth of the mid range which is where speech tends to sit can still come through with clarity but the triggering sounds high and low are filtered out so they can be really helpful probably the other accommodation that I'm gobsmacked that people still expect it from us that I contact is somehow mandatory for human contact I contact is often overwhelming I didn't realize how much I find it overwhelming and that if I'm really concentrating I contact is not something that's helpful for me and just being okay with that I think when I was first became a no tea one of the things yeah they try and choose help help children that are autistic give high contact that is the opposite of what's helpful in my books unless unless it's important for that child to give high contact so again for me it's very much about what's important to the individual what they want to work on one of the things I say a lot when a family are in front of me face to face you know mum will pick up typically the hand caterpillar which is the one with the beads that roll and they'll and you watch the shoulders will drop and you'll see an immediate response to that product and they're 11 year old son will pick up the cog that has a high spin in a slight vibration they're like oh mum can I get this can I get this can I get this I love this I love this and you can see the joy they're getting from a whole range of aspects of that particular figure and the mum will pick it up feel it and it does nothing for them and like no no no no no no feel this feel this this is the one you should get and that's two different sensory needs playing out and trying to gently remind the mum that it is and he's so individual the other one that we haven't touched on which is important understand that's part of our sensory diet is food and texture I think we often get accused of being fussy eaters I like to see this sit we have sensory palettes and it's no different to our touch or our hearing our taste and our tongues and our mouths and all all the things you know that is sensory as well it's one of one of the senses and just remembering that that's it we've got to honor that as well a beautiful example I read or heard once and it stuck with me your my son has a very sensory profile he has only a couple of safe foods and he'll eat and so for the vast majority of people they would look at his diet and I would call it a beige diet you know nuggets any version of nugget like a snitzel that's a big nugget there's nuggets there's you know chicken strips a long nugget um sausages mashed potato interesting he likes mashed potato but it is beige you know I spent probably the first seven years of his life worrying yet if he had the right nutrition and stressing about it and and I read I'm pretty sure it was it was an article and it talked about you know it's a sensory palette and they said you know if you were at a dinner party and you sat down and someone served you raw chicken there's nothing that could make you eat it you know you you couldn't eat it and I remember as mum thinking yeah I would gag I couldn't and they said so when you put something in front of your sensory human and they don't want to eat it remind yourself that's their raw chicken and from that moment on I not ever want stress about what he did or didn't eat and it's okay to have safe things and so I stopped betting myself up as a monk I really liked that raw chicken analogy so I hope that helps somebody listing I think it really well because with sensory stuff it is such a physiological like experience I remember seeing this pyramid diagram I think it's an occupational therapy sort of diagram and it had all of these kind of the sensory needs you know in our senses so hearing smell, sight, tongue, taste then we have the vestibular sense which is kind of like a balance, proper reception which is you know whereas your body compared to other objects in space like special awareness and then the eighth sense is interoception which we have talked about on the podcast before which is your ability to be able to like a notice and be accurately kind of tell what you're internal organs and what your body is kind of saying to you but like all of those needs need to be met and they're at the bottom of the pyramid but people don't get up to the top of the pyramid which was like the behavioral regulation of what you're saying before like the frontal cortex you're executive functioning and then learning an emotional regulation so I think it's really understanding that covering the sensory and the physiological stuff that really should be a priority and that bottom of the pyramid needs to be in place for these other things happen and for you can really be a big thing for neurodivergent people like people can either be sensory seeking and almost maybe eating a lot more than they would like to because they are trying to self-suit right through sensory seeking with food or it might be you know actually really struggling to get enough nutrition and enough fluids and things in because of sensory differences and sensory processing so I think if we can come to it through like a non-judgmental lens and just note that you know these things aren't at all good they're actually bodily needs and being curious and compassionate about it from being a parent or being the person who is neurodivergent being a teacher being a therapist being a health professional yeah I think this is why it's so important for us to be having this conversation and talking about it. Absolutely and also having those conversations with our young humans as well so that they understand because often the things that we seek get misread or assumed as being you miss behaving or you're trying to distract or and actually those things those sensory seeking behaviors are literally you're trying to regulate you're trying to do your very best to give what's required here and now whether it be in a social context or an education context I find it interesting like in schools this is a conversation that I have regularly with educators and it's logical again to assume that you know kids have been out at snack and lunch and they've been doing lots of running around and playing and so when they come in you kind of think well they've got their rigles out or they've got all their activity out so now it's time to come and sit and learn but the thing is that we don't necessarily have a front of mind is for I think the vast majority of primary school kids whether they're being neurodistinct or you're a typical it's a little bit crazy out there and there's lots of regulation issues but as we get older so moving to secondary it becomes I think a little bit more apparent for those that are neurodistinct that there's a lot of the things that cause dysregulation whether it be my sandwiches squished it's hot my clothes aren't feeling comfortable I didn't understand that social exchange what just happened there there's a lot of things that overwhelm and we're hit that instinctive or survival part of our brain and we're in flight flight when we come into the classroom and unless we get to move whether that be big movement and I've been saying to teachers if you could just get your students moving for even if it's just two or three minutes before they sit and learn the vast majority will actually quite and down that instinctive response and allow them to attend better and often those that are neurodistinct will need additional sensory supports. Absolutely and I think you know some of the things that I have kind of seen is that that movement actually get all along the expectation changes when you get into high school oh you should be able to sit still for longer you should be able to learn quietly for longer and then when you get into university or work afterwards it's you know there are even more sort of normative expectations on you but actually for me for example like I have a sit stand desk at heart so I can alternate between sitting and standing if I had a preference I would have loved to have sit on a rocking chair for all of primary school high school uni and if I ever had to work an office job I would be rocking backwards and fall backwards or that rocking chair like at the desk because I found it very regulating this is where we have people go for walks you know every hour they get up and they'll go for a little walk around the office or in their lunch break they can't go and eat in the lunch room with everybody else because you know that's overloading and they need to get out and get out of the office and go for a walk to get that movement in so yeah like there are so many things that people aren't aware of that they may be already doing to regulate themselves but then there are other things that people aren't or what that could be brought in through things like schools and workplaces absolutely and if there is a student like and I know that it of course it does happen yeah you have a student for example that's fleeing a fidget or fleeing their sensory support around rather than make a big deal out of it just just remove it and just say look when you're ready to use it appropriately or you know I'll give it back to you and I find too if you don't make a big deal out of using it and allow it there for all students it shouldn't just be like that's the box of things for those students here that are neuro divergent it's it's for anybody that needs it for a funny moment I had an expo I had this teacher she was very old school and she was standing and she was like what are these about what are these for I you know I don't agree with these in schools it was an education conference and so I was obviously that I was there promoting them for use in schools and she was not an enthusiast about it and so I started to talk to her a little bit about how the brain works and the science behind why it's helpful to use tools that are both quiet and provide sensory support and she's like no I think they're ridiculous I refuse to let my students use it and when I was frustrated internally and I do the older I've got the my filter for what I say has its narrowed I'm not as good at filtering but I was being very good and I was not telling her what I was thinking but the interesting thing is and I did reflect this to her gently is the entire time she was talking to me she was obviously a little heightened by the conversation because we had differing opinions the entire time she was fidgeting with her lanyard like she was uh stemming with it and towards the end of the conversation I just said it's interesting you're talking about that fidgeting or using sensory supports is unhelpful but I've noticed that while you've been talking to me that you've been using your lanyard very much as a sensory support are you aware that that's exactly what we're talking about and it's true teachers often need sensory supports of two and one of the things I regularly talk about with schools as well is when they're talking about their students and what would I recommend or what are the best tools it's like we also need to look at supports for teachers because it's pretty overwhelming yeah it's probably my top list of careers I would not do is in a classroom with kids so not that I don't love kids I love kids that to sound they're wrong but it's just a really challenging thing to stew it so many unique humans in one space um well okay Joe so we've had a grit chat today about you know a different sensory needs and accommodations and you talked with us a bit about like how cocos fidgets kind of oh one of the things that really drew me to your business was the fact that your son partner who is autistic designs um like his own line of fidgets and they looked really cool like they looked like they were designed for teens and adults yeah so what's it been like to run this business with your son pie and other family members oh look it's honestly been such a privilege it really commenced as we talked touched on earlier as an unfolding of chai sensory needs so we didn't set out to run a business he was getting teased he was in grade four and he was using a tangle which he's some loves actually and his peers were telling him to go play with the preps and he was coming home in tears feeling like he didn't want to use his sensory supports at school because he was getting teased for them but he needed them in order to attend he was struggling with learning it's dyslexic as well so he really struggled academically and so we problem solved with him and we came up with the idea of working with metal and trying to design something that was jointed like a tangle but that was made out of metal that would look a little bit more acceptable in his older primary and he started taking them to school so like we experimented we googled how to decrease chains and it said use caro I think it was petrol one of the mama sure anyway that was a sensory nightmare so we we we filled around and we you know he's first first couple of fidgets that he made he took to school instead of being teased his peers were like oh when you get that he's like I made it you did not with the response so he took a bunch in that he made and shared with his cohort that he went to school with and the response was really good the thing I liked most though was that Kai for the first time in his life like he'd seen psychologists and we had he had occupational therapy we'd done so many programs to try and help him because for a very young age because he was so significantly struggling he told me most days he didn't want to live and so he was a sad he was acutely aware of how different he was and that made him really sad and for the first time in his life no matter how awesome as a parent I tell him he is you know he's academic he's social and he's sporting prowess told him he sucked to him and so for the first time in his life he was my son he's peers his teachers were telling him the impact that he's still things that he were making was having and for the first time I saw him yeah he's chest puff out because he was actually doing something that was cool and different and so we lent into that and started doing little markets with his fidgets and that's actually where it began was quite by accident doing markets but it was the best thing for his self-esteem I honestly feel like it's it sounds like a bit melodramatic but it saved him and it helped him unleash his entrepreneurial and his left of center thinking which is just so beautiful I constantly remind my boys not too much in the world that's been invented that is miraculous and life changing has come from a neurotypical human it's it's those that think outside the box and and you know test limits that a force change and so I've watched that come alive in my son and I love the fact that he's really comfortable in his own skin but it's been a journey and sort of exploring that with him as a business has been I can't put words to how how incredibly grateful I am that we accidentally discovered that this was the thing for him yeah that's amazing you know I think it's really cool how it sort of like turned what has been painful through almost alchemy into what a really specialty area of skill and actually creating things that really help others and give joy to others as well you know and I I think that a lot in people sometimes is you know whether you've been through difficult things or you've had some difficulties it really gives you that empathy because you've been for a bit to understand what someone else's struggles and needs of being and then to sometimes come up with those really creative solutions you know so it's amazing thank you so much for sharing that story so Jo it's been a pleasure to have you on the podcast today and talk about all things sensory for our last question today do you have any other strengths that you like to show that your reversions has given you or a favorite moment of story that shows how your brain works I think one of the things that's particularly great about the way a neuro distinct brain works is that we we do hyper focus and when we we're passionate about something we can really drill down and it's almost like the dial goes up or the you like you get supervision and I I love the fact that that can really help with product design and development and so you hear something small and it becomes very expanded in your brain and so so many of the tools that have come into being through meandering's of exploring others sensory has been that journey with others but that acute attunement to hearing it and being able to expand it into something that's not yet in existence I really love that when we are passionate about something we do hyper focus on it and so it doesn't feel like working that's one of the things I encourage mainstream work is difficult I think for teens and adults when you aren't have a different neuro type often it's the sensory things that do get in the way of a more typical work environment but that doesn't mean that we can't be really effective in a work environment and I haven't found too many humans this beautiful story and I'm sharing with permission he sings it from the rooftop this beautiful gentleman Damian who is obsessed with spinners he came to us he discovered our spinners and he visited us weekly with his support worker and he hadn't been able to get many footwork he'd struggled to fight even volunteer work that he could do he had complex physical needs and a range of difficulties and his passion was spinners and I often say to people when you're passionate about something try and lean into that for work you know like how can you turn that into something that you can do and and so over the last three or four months we've had the privilege of walking alongside Damian I encouraged him that he was so obsessed he's so he's completely blind he has cerebral palsy as so he has a number of challenges that make it difficult to work in what you would expect a work environment anyway I talked to him about possibly setting up a little market stall a bit like what kind did and selling spinners and he's done that and he's now on a weekly basis doing markets selling spinners and he for the first time he's 27 he's he's doing him and he's doing it in his passion and embracing it and I love the fact we've got to witness that journey just through sparking an idea it just doesn't need to look like working for someone we can do it for ourselves you know some people need to work at night time some people need to work in it one hour bursts some people need to work lying on the floor you can do that and you can do it often best when you work for yourself amazing thank you so much you're sharing that story and your strengths and yeah passion is everything yeah it's amazing yeah and we usually have it with abundance don't we yeah definitely um it's really all or nothing so you feel the environment being the cause yeah awesome so if people would like to connect with kai kai features and with yourself what is the best way for them to do that job well we have a website uh so that's www.kaicafidgets.com and kaicaspot kai k o so it's combination of kai which is my son's name and kobi kai k o so kaicafidgets um I'm also on email so people I get several emails a day with people just wanting me to help unpack what might suit them best more than happy to do that and they can just get me on joe at kaicafidgets.com um and we've got social so we've got InstaToc and Facebook for kaicafidgets so they can reach out I'm not particularly great at responding to DMs I usually my DM will tell them to email me um because they're going to be overwhelmed with all the things so um yeah so yeah more than more than happy to feel questions anytime sounds great thanks for sharing joe you're so welcome and thank you so much for having me it's been a pleasure if you enjoyed this episode and want to support us further you can do so by subscribing to our patreon to become part of our patreon community you can buy us a coffee for five dollars per month or a wine for ten dollars per month all of our patreon subscribers receive access to a backlog of exclusive content to basic text transcripts from season four onwards and to a monthly live zoom hangout with us and our patreon community our zoom hangouts are placed to ask questions chat about your experiences and connect with other neurodivergent women patreon's shouting us 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