Senator Jane Hume on how to avoid the likeability trap

Hi, I'm Helen McCabe, managing director and founder of FW. I began life as a journalist, held senior roles in newspapers, edited Australia's largest magazine, and in 2018, I launched my own business. FW is dedicated to helping women navigate their working lives, but I've made my share of mistakes, especially as a leader. In this series, I go in search of answers to often complex leadership challenges. I explore the latest thinking on how to be a great leader and return to the tried and true methods to better understand what works and in what situations. This episode, I'm talking to Senator Jane Hume. I'm usually wary about inviting serving politicians onto the podcast as their insights into leadership can often vary from corporate leaders or senior bureaucrats. Why? Well, for politicians, leadership is about serving the country, leading with ideas and convictions, rather than managing a team of people. But I invited Senator Hume for a specific reason. I wanted to discuss convictions and leadership, not just in politics, but in workplaces more broadly. Specifically, what happens when strong opinions create conflict and how leaders can navigate the thorny issue of likability at work? Jane Hume, welcome to the FW Leadership Podcast. I find interviewing professional politicians really tough on leadership, because I do think leadership with a politician is often about leading the country, leading a political party and leading with ideals and conviction. Whereas for almost everybody else, leadership is about that team of people that you take to build a business or grow a business. So I'm going to try and come at this interview from a couple of different perspectives. So let's talk about the bit where you are a politician and you decide to run for a political party because you have convictions that align with a political party. And that is hard to do, I think. I think it's a big call. So can you talk to me a little bit about you as a conviction person and what made you decide to nail those convictions to a political party and say this is what I believe in? Yeah, look, everybody comes at politics from a different angle. What was it that the passion that led you there? And those terrific sort of log cabin stories about folk that fought for an off-leash dog park in their community and then somehow turned that into and now I'm a cabinet minister. You know, I quite like those stories, but there's also something that's a bit more prosaic, but at the same time, no less valuable. And I think that that's probably a bit more my story. You know, I was from a small business family and we had always handed out how to vote cards. I can remember handing out how to vote cards from the time I was a little tacker. But in true sort of female form, by the time I was an adult and was voting myself, I kind of knew that I was voted for the Liberal Party, but I couldn't really articulate why just because that was what we did. And it was and so I never joined the party and when I went to university and there's all these really strident Liberals or your Liberal Club there. I actually found them a bit intimidating. They were very certain of their beliefs and at that stage in my development, I think I was much more open, not open minded. I don't want to say that, but uncertain of what was right and what was wrong and quite willing to hear arguments of both ways and be persuaded by arguments on both sides. So I kind of avoided student politics. It wasn't until I was in my 30s, early 30s, maybe just maybe late 20s, I had my first baby and I was handing out my how to vote cards and somebody came along and asked me to join the party that I actually signed my name on the dotted line, but it was even later than that when all of my kids, I sort of stepped away to look after kids for a while, but I went back to university and studied politics. Again, a very female thing, isn't it? I don't really understand this, so I'm going to do a course and understand it better. I knew what I believed. I just didn't know why I believed in it, what the context was. And so I went back and studied politics and just loved it. It was so much more than I ever loved studying commerce and economics and accounting and all those things. Just studying politics really launched my rockets. So I kept going with my career outside of politics, obviously, business and banking and finance. But it got to the stage where my interest became a hobby, became an obsession and a passion and then became a profession. But that journey was probably somewhere around 10 to 15 years. So you signed up member of the Liberal Party. You eventually get elected to the Senate. At what point do you realise that a lot of people really don't like you? Can I tell you? I'm not sure I put that the best way. Oh, dear. Can I tell you that the most I ever did was for me. This is when I knew I was really a politician. It was back during a state election campaign, so not federal election. And I'd been working on some of the booths around my area in the lead up to the election. And I think it was a Saturday morning. It was pretty early by 7.30, 8 o'clock. I was wearing my active wear. I went down the street to drop off my dry cleaning, get a cup of coffee before I was going to go back and get on with my day. And there's no one in the street, no one. Just me with my coffee and my active wear and my dry cleaning. Wandering up the street, one person, one woman's walking towards me. And just as she comes past me, she leans over and she goes, you're an idiot. And then she kept walking. And that was the moment I realised I was really a politician because the first thing that went through my mind was, oh, my profile's improving. Well, that's right. And that is a politician. Can I just tell you? I remember walking through, I did a quite controversial profile on Tony Abbott. We first got elected leader of the Liberal Party. No one expected him to get elected. Probably not even him. And that's saying something. And he wins by one vote. So I went on tour with him. And I said to him, how do you deal with being recognised everywhere you go and everyone kind of going, that's Tony Abbott. And he goes, I love it. He said, I absolutely love it. And I was like, okay, that's the difference between a normal person and a person who's going to be successful in politics. He enjoyed the attention. He enjoyed the conflict, right? Well, look, I don't know whether I embrace the conflict. Although, look, I will tell you, having had that experience however many years ago, it was. Just last week, I was up in Sydney and I was walking from one meeting to another on my own. And somebody stopped me in the street and said, excuse me, are you a Liberal politician? And I thought, oh, God, you know, yes, I am. And he said, I just want to thank you for representing us so well. I don't have any asks. I just want to say, well done. I'm glad somebody will do it. And then he kept walking and I thought, oh, that wasn't what I was expecting. But, you know, so you do get the good with the bad. And this is where I want to get to today, right? So our audience is not going to run for politics and are not inspired by much of what you're saying. Yet, yet, you know, you never know. I didn't do it until I was 45. I mean, you and I could take a whole conversation offline about how hard politics is on women. And I think it still remains extremely difficult for women to be leaders in this country. But what I want to do is kind of drill into the how you mentally prepare for the conflict. For the fact that there are people who just think that your position on the economy is just wrong. So I want to understand how you every day get up and walk into that space. Look, you're right. That can kind of be tough. There will always be a proportion that you will never convince. You just never will because they don't want to be convinced. They want to have their position reinforced. And then there will be the side that will always think that you are absolutely 100% right in everything that you say is gospel. And they will never be able to hear the alternative. It's the middle, of course, that are the ones that are the most important, I think, to be able to convince. And I think the trick is always to understand if you possibly can with whatever audience you're speaking to, what it is that motivates them. So that whole idea of, you know, walking a mile in another woman's high heels is, you know, part of the battle one. So finding that motivation for what it is that helps people make decisions, I think is half the battle and picking your audience. No, I'm not speaking to those ones that will never agree with me. I don't need to speak necessarily to those ones that always agree with me. It's this middle ground. How do you manage the the luckability factor required in public life, which comes with, you know, plenty of people, as I said before, that are prepared to tear you down. But you've obviously navigated that space for quite a while now. Can you talk us through about how you think about it and what bothers you and what doesn't? Well, I think women generally like to be liked and can be quite offended when people don't like them. And I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, to be honest, the people that don't care whether they're like just somewhat sort of sociopathic. And so that's a terrible thing to say because there's plenty of people out there. You probably work with a few from right around the chamber, can I say? But I think the trick is just to understand that not just in politics, not just in business, but in life, not everyone is going to like you. And that's OK. I'm all right with that. To be honest, if you spend all of your time and expend all of your energy trying to be liked, it really means that you are, you know, building an entire persona around other people's expectations, not your own. And that is entirely inauthentic. It does help, though, if you have a good support network around you. If you've had a day of everybody hating on you and you can go home to your partner and kids or dog, parents, friends, that like you, not because of what you've said at work or not because what you do for a living, but because you are who you are, that makes all the difference. Certainly, certainly does to me. The fact that I have such a big life outside of politics is probably what gives me the strength to keep going in the darker days. Can I tell you a trick, though? This is something that I think is one of those things that I have learned on the journey that took me totally by surprise. I worked with a woman on a board before I entered politics, and I know her still. And she's quite charming, very intelligent, very intense. And she would try and explain something or, you know, convince somebody of a position. And then halfway through, while she's explaining it, she would just break into a smile. And it's extraordinary. When somebody's talking to you like that and they break into a smile, it's impossible not to smile back. And all of a sudden, you're drawn to this person. It was such a skill. So I have to admit, occasionally I use that trick. If I feel like I'm in a difficult situation or a difficult interview, I will just beam for a moment. And it's incredible the response you get. That is such a great tip. And I'm now recalling all of the tough interviews you did in that election campaign. And I reckon you did a bit of smiling through some of them. [Music] You did have a bruising campaign where you ended up being talked about quite a lot. Can you talk a bit about how you got through headlines and constant commentary about your election performance? Yeah, look, it's absolutely not easy. At the same time, though, I think at the end of the day and at the end of a career and at the end of a life, people will always judge you on your gallop and not your stumble. And I think it was John Howard that said once that in politics, nothing's ever as bad as it seems and nothing's ever as good as it seems. So you might be high-fiving that you've done something terrific, no one's even noticed. And you might be losing sleep over something that's gone wrong, probably no one's noticed. So look, yeah, it was a tough campaign. And it's tough to be out there every single day and taking blows for the team. But hey, that's what we signed up for. That's what we do. And you've got to at one stage say, I'm proud of myself for being tough enough to be able to do that and still get up and do it all over again. Yeah, I think that's a really good observation. Again, I'm looking for assistance to anyone who's listening to this podcast who's like having a tough day at work. And it's not being talked about on the front page of every newspaper and website in the country. Like, you know, what is required to kind of have that level of resilience that you do keep fronting up to breakfast television and hostile interviews? Like, what is it about you that can push through some of that? Because I watched you through that thinking I would have preferred to stay in bed today, but you didn't do that. Do you know, can I tell you there were days where I thought, you know, I don't know why I'm getting out of bed today. There are a number of things, though, that, you know, force you to get up there. And one of them, I think, is surrounding yourself with a really tough, supportive, hardworking team. And I have that. And I really had that throughout the campaign. I've always felt that, you know, the very best leaders surround themselves with people that are smarter than they are. And they treat them as adults always. They give them autonomy and they reward their loyalty with your loyalty. You reward their hard work with your hard work. And at the end of the day, never blame anyone else. If a decision is made, it's your decision. I take responsibility. I get out there and I'll deal with it. It's no one else's problem. And I mean, that's the way I can go to bed and lie straight at night. So you've just got to, you've got to look at it for what it is and try and get some perspective. Do you think about your brand presence? And if so, is there, are there a couple of words that you hope are attached to you? Brand presence. Goodness me. I'm the world's worst marketer. I would say that my son works in marketing and he uses words that I go, huh, what? So I mean, I look, I would hope that people consider me credible. I tend not to wade into commentary on things that I don't feel I know a lot about, which is always difficult, particularly if you're doing breakfast TV and you find out that, you know, today's topic is sport or something. I used to, that's always tough. I did a bit of breakfast TV with Carl Stefanovic and he was always asking me what I thought about Shark Nets off the coast of Western Australia. I was like, nothing. I don't think about them. I'm here in Sydney. There's not my, you know, not my place to have an opinion. So yes, it's, and they don't care. It is, that is tough. You need to have one. They don't care. Yeah, that's right. I used to have one of my advisors in the office here. I used to joke that he was also the cricket advisor because I couldn't talk credibly on cricket, but I kept getting asked. But so I think that that's really what to try and sort of talk about things that you're good at. I've always been more comfortable, I think, being a specialist than a generalist, which is ironic considering politicians are the ultimate generalists. But yeah, if you can be perceived as being credible, I think that's half the battle one in marketing yourself. And if you can also be respectful. I always think that politics, particularly my side of politics is built on an understanding that there are certain societal norms and manners are a part of that. Now that sounds really old fashioned, but it kind of isn't. It is, it gives you a structure and a framework through which you look at everything. Saying please and thank you, opening a door, engaging people in conversation that isn't necessarily about what it is that they're doing right now, whether it be a barista or a member of the ADF. All of that is really important. I think people like to be recognised for not what is that they're doing right now, but who it is behind the eyes and at good manners is part of that. So I think that people would probably recognise me for having a reasonable cheery disposition, although not insanely cheery, and treating people respectfully no matter who they are. And I think potentially off the back of a bruising election, fronting up, just returning and just being a part of the team again. And what did you say about a tiara? Straighten your tiara and get on with it. That was my mother. Yes, that's exactly right. Which I'm absolutely sure that is going to attract criticism. Oh, doesn't she think she's a princess? But it's just a saying. It's just kind of dumb. But yeah, straighten your tiara and get on with it. Chin up, chest out. No one cares. This is the thing. No one cares. No, they don't. If about you personally, they care about election result. They care about policy. They care about making sure that the countries run well. No one cares about you personally. Just get on with it. Yeah, but again, I'm trying to play learnings from like what you do is on industrial scale is the profile, the precision, the internal stakeholders, the external stakeholders, the focus on everything you do, everything you say is something that we all contend with in our work life, but not with the focus and the scrutiny that you have to endure. So that level of resilience, that level of self confidence, that level of moving past disappointment or failure or criticism, like it's big what you have to contend with as a public figure. Yeah, look, you do that. And you will understand this, Helen, you do to some extent put on an armor, you know, I was much more inclined after that election. After such a bruising campaign to rather than hide under the dune, which don't get me wrong, I did have a couple of sleepings and I deserved them. But I was much more inclined to finally go to the hairdresser and get rid of the grays and buy myself a new suit and a new lipstick and put on the armor and get back out there. And dull that sort of silly peripheral stuff may sound like vanity, but actually it is part of the strength and the confidence that we get us in that to put yourself back out there. Did you look at leaders like Julie Bishop, Julia Gillard, what you're saying Penny Wong contend with at the moment. Is there anyone of your contemporary female colleagues that you kind of go, that's tough and you know, I've got a lot of admiration. Almost all of them. So we all cop it in some way, shape or form. And I think that we probably notice it more than others. I mean, when I was going through a sort of a reels of self-flagellation stage, I'd just read the comments on social media posts. And they'd tell you, oh my God, you should never, ever, ever, but you know, it's part of the hair shirt thing. And yes, you should never do that. And we all cop it somewhere along the line. The hard part is pulling up people that do it to others. Incidentally, I mean, it's one thing if it's a social media post, but it's another thing if it's somebody that you're having a meeting with that says something awful about, you know, Claire O'Neill or Penny Wong or something. And you feel like going, you didn't need to say that. But that sort of thing, I haven't quite managed yet. But I would hope other people would do it for me, even if they don't, you know, maybe, maybe they manage it better. If there is a way to manage it, I'd be keen to know. Yes, well, it's the kind of thing we spend a lot of time on and humour, it does go a long way. It's all about lightness and tone, right? And how to kind of, but I'm not good at that either. My intention, my, it would come over as like, are you for real? You can't say that about other people cut it out. Yeah, I'm not entirely sure how to do my poker face. Yeah, you and I both on that. What's the best piece of feedback you've received in your career? The best bit of feedback, and I have used it numerous times, is don't get bitter and get better. Which is a little bit not dissimilar to sort of the things that we've been talking about before. But if you, if you fail at something or don't do as well, somebody beats you at something. If you have this little kernel of misery, it will eat at you. Probably not affect at all the person that beat you or wronged you in some way, but it will affect you. The trick is always, I think, if anybody says, I just did everything right and everything went wrong. That shows an extraordinary lack of self-awareness. Inevitably, there's something that you can learn from and you can do better next time. So yeah, don't get better, get better. What are the cultural things in your, in your, either in your current team or your previous teams or even your business life that really hurt you? I can't bear going to, whether it be a cabinet meeting or a shadow cabinet meeting, where there is this sort of massive group think of agreement around the table. And if somebody says, well, actually I have a problem with that, or have we considered this alternative? The idea of them being sort of carved out or sidelined or frozen out, that has always really bothered me. I actually think that we should have an obligation to dissent. Even if you, something seems completely obvious, you should always try and red team, blue team it. Well, what is the alternative? And we should encourage that and embrace that more. That is a very difficult thing to do, particularly with a team that works well together. The longer you've worked together, you would have seen that in successful governments. You know, it is much easier and faster to everyone to agree. Absolutely. And faster, I think, is the really important point that you've nailed there. So much of what we do, whether in government or indeed in opposition, has to be done at pace. Decisions have to get made. And if you're the one that says, hang on, what about, you can become annoying? Are you annoying very often? I have been in the past, I think, and I actually have memories even in the last three years where I've sat around a table and I've gone, I'm really sorry to do this again, but I'm just going to say and then say something. And I know I shouldn't apologize. You should never apologize. Just get in there and say it. But you do get to that stage where you feel like, there's an eye roll, Jane speaking again. So, yes, I can't bear it when I hear myself simple. It's the worst habit. You've had some time to reflect. You haven't been in government for a while. You're now not on the front bench, so you're not responsible for all the things. Thanks for reminding me. I've really done well at this interview today, haven't I? Pull that knife out. How many rude things have I said to you now? I think it's like number three. I'm really, really nailing the questions. Anyway, yes, you were dumped from the front bench. Please, say it again. Say it again. I'm sorry, I'm not entirely sure that the neighbours didn't hear. It's the last time Jane Hume ever does an interview with FW. What have you been doing with your time? What are the sorts of things you've been thinking about and reading? So I think the best thing that I did immediately after the election was get on a plane and go overseas. Now, it wasn't just for a holiday, although I admit I did take a break. But I went to the UK first and foremost and spoke to people in the Conservative Party that were part of their great being rebuild prior to the David Cameron era. And some of those that were in the David Cameron era as well, about what they'd done to rebuild their party and get back into government, how they made themselves more reflective of their population, more electorate appealing. The good things that they did, but also how things went horribly, terribly wrong for them. And that was absolutely fascinating. The other thing that I've gone and done is take a step back and say, "What's this the first time I've been on the back bench in six years?" And I didn't spend a lot of time on the back bench. It was, you know, I rose pretty far and pretty fast. And so now I get to revisit some of those things that drew me to politics in the first place, the passions that I have and the interests that I've gained along the way, whether it be in something like the digital economy, which I don't think is being managed particularly well right now, whether it be in superannuation, which was my profession before I came in. And so there's, you know, a few little passion projects along the way. Any final advice for young women who are just beginning to lead teams at the moment in their career? Yes, look, this might sound trite, so bear with me. But I always think that if you can do somebody a kindness, you should always do it because people will remember you for the kind acts. If it's somebody's birthday, say happy birthday. If it's, I always make a point of when we have a new colleague come in and join us in the Senate chamber or, you know, somebody from the Libose in the House of Rips, buying them a bunch of flowers and/or a pot plant and sending it to their office when their office is, you know, entirely empty and just saying, you know, welcome to part of the team. Try and remember people's kids' names. Put them in your diary if you have to. Remember something about other people that makes them feel special when you say, "Oh, it's so good to see you, Helen. Last time I saw you, you were on your way to the States for a conference." Or you can introduce somebody and say, "Helen, you know, this is Bob." Bob's daughter has just started a university this year. Like, something that makes people go, "Oh, she listened." If you can do somebody kindness, that's what they will remember you for. Jane Hume, you thank you so much for joining me today. And thank you for talking a little bit about what was a tough campaign and sharing your leadership insights. Much appreciated. That's my pleasure, Helen, and make all power to future women. You do change lives for the better. Thank you.