This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Lisa, tell them about our new show. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie To Me. I'm Lexi Juanio, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa de Julio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my food days, I've lived it all. Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are thousands of podcasts that can tell you how to better yourself. Get worse with Kyle Pru is not one of those podcasts. So if you're interested in getting thinner, going to therapy, starting peptide, setting boundaries, taking supplements, making your better, getting closer, then I would humbly recommend other podcasts. 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Hey everybody, it's me Josh, and for this week's Select, I've chosen our 2021 episode on Sakagawaia, whose name I learned to pronounce correctly after 45 years on the planet in this very episode. She's one of those figures in American history who's been morphed into more of a folk legend than a real-life person. And I think that's because we round out the contours of historic people so we can teach young kids about them, and that after a while that kidified version is all they become in everyone's mind. So, like anyone, there's a lot more to Sakagawaia than the average person realizes. But what's most amazing is that we actually know a lot of that stuff about her. It's amazing because not only was she a Native American living at the beginning of the 19th century on the Great Plains, but she was a teenager and a girl. And yet, we know a bunch about her, and what we know adds up to a pretty great person. That's why we named this episode "Impressive Team." Hope you're impressed by her too. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's over there, and this is Stuff You Should Know. And I can't help but feel that I'm being subtweeted right now. What work? I don't know what that means. Oh, it's where you talk about somebody without directly talking about them. You just kind of maybe talk about their behavior or how you disapprove of something that they did, but you don't directly say, "This person did this, and I don't like it." You know, I, uh, one time, I don't know all this lingo with the Twitter, because I was never on it, and I was emailing with Jonathan Colton, musician, Jonathan Colton, about coming on movie crush. And I can't remember what I said, but he said something, something, don't at me. And I didn't know what that meant. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm sorry. I'm not sure what I did." I don't know. I apologize if I did something wrong. And I think he was kind of like, "Who is this idiot?" Hodgman likes this guy. And I think don't, I mean, didn't that just mean you're tagging someone on Twitter or something? Yeah, but usually it means like you're telling them that they got something wrong or you disagree with what they said or they should be ashamed of what they said. It's usually a hostile thing that you're adding somebody. Or you're, yeah, they're, they've made their point, and they don't want to hear any feedback from you about it. That's right. That's kind of what I took from it. And you have to like kind of snap a few times when you say it. I'm just really so thankful still that I never joined Twitter. That's the last thing I need. I'm already on Facebook, which is terrible. I've been enjoying Instagram, I have to say. That seems like a pretty nice crowd. Totally different place. Yeah, but you know, we're talking about all this because we're talking about Sakagawa. Yes, we are. Naturally, yeah, naturally, who would probably issue both Instagram and Twitter because she seems like a pretty solid human being. She'd be like, don't at me. That's right. So just to just to get this done out of the gate. Again, I thought that her name was pronounced Sakagawa. I am not like in the minority in the United States at least because that's how we were raised to say her name. Unfortunately, we have such things as historians and people who listen to Native Americans who have been told over the years. No, it's not Sakagawa. It's Sakagawa, right? There's one pronounced pronunciation of it. But that it's not Juh, it's Guh. And we've started to kind of pronounce her name correctly. You say it way better than me. So why don't you take it? Well, I mean, gosh, this is the third time now we're on this. I've seen different things from Sakagawa to Sakagawa. I think in Clark's journal, William Clark that is of Lewis and Clark fame, spelled it S-A-H-K-A-H emphasis on that. G-A-R-W-E-A. So Sakagawa or Sakagawa, but then the Shoshone, which is a Native American tribe that well, we'll get to the importance there. They say actually it is S-A-C-A-J-A-W-E-A. And it means boat pusher, not the Hitatsu language of bird woman. So there is some debate. Yeah. One thing that I did see is that Lewis and Clark, and they factoring this because Sakagawa was the main guide and interpreter as they push further westward. They actually tried to spell every Indian or Native American word that they encountered, phonetically as best they could. They were terrible spellers even of English words. I mean, just like barely litter it, it seemed like, but they tried their best. Yeah, it's really bad. But they tried to spell every word that they found phonetically. And I think Sakagawa's name appears 17 different times in both of their journals. And not once do they spell that third syllable "guh" with a "j" sound, with a "j". It's always a "j". And they think that it was a hard "j" so that it's Sakagawa, not Sakagawa. So they said it's definitely "gif" and not "jif". Right, which it is definitely "gif" as we all know. So if you listen to the Lewis and Clark episode, was it a two-parter? I feel like it was. It was not. It was not? Wow. And you're thinking of the evil cannibalized episode. God, it's on bears. You always bring that up to shame me, I think. It shames both of us. And Jerry too, a certain extent as well, for the learning of what she could have stepped in. And like, for God's sakes, what are you doing? Totally. Consolidate, man. So a great episode though. I know in that episode we talked a bit obviously about Sakagawa and Ken Burns and his great documentary about the core of discovery. But she was born. She had a, you know, she lived a short life and there is a little controversy on how long she did live, which we'll get to at the end. But she was born in either 1788 or 89 as a member of the Limh, Limh is what I'm going to say. Okay. Elian H.I. Band of the Shoshone tribe, which we spoke about a minute ago. Is it Shoshone or Shoshone? Shoshone? Is it Shoshone? That's what I've always heard. But then again, I always heard it was Sakagawa you too. I believe it was Shoshone. She grew up though in a very, I imagine, lovely, lovely part of the country. And what is now Idaho in the salmon river region? Yes. So she was actually a member of a specific band of the Lemhi Shoshone. The salmon eaters is what they were called. And she grew up in that part of Idaho. I guess it was around the bitter root mountains near the continental divide and the bitter roots were part of the Rockies. But yeah, it just sounds absolutely gorgeous. The Shoshone tribe was enemies to the Hidazah who you mentioned earlier. And the reason that they say that Sakagawa means bird woman is because Sakagawa became an involuntary member of the Hidazah tribe when she was around 12 years old. I didn't get it. She was out on a buffalo hunt. Or if the Hidazah happened to be out on a buffalo hunt and came across her. Did you understand that? I'm not sure. I kind of just in my mind thought that they were out. But I guess it doesn't really matter because either way she was kidnapped and settled with them near what is now Bismarck, North Dakota. And here's where her life took a, or I guess that event actually took her life in a very different direction. in that that was a trading center and international trading center so people from all over the world.
would kind of stop through there to trade their wares. And she was essentially, I mean, it's hard to not say kidnap again, a French Canadian fur trader, to Saul Charbonneau. - Beautiful. - Took her as property, he called her his wife, but we can't, you know, now through today's lens, we've got a lot better about not glossing over that stuff. She was property to him. She was a teenager, I think like 16 or 17. - Not even, I think she was actually 15. - Oh, was she? - And she was about two decades younger than him. And there's no other way to say it other than she was property and part of being property was that she was raped by Charbonneau. - Yeah, like there's no way you can put it that, like she didn't have any say in the matter of whether they had sex. So like it's just, that's rape, no matter what. But yeah, over the years, like she's always been referred to as one of his wives, because I guess Americans didn't want to kind of confront that stuff, you know? - Right. - So she ends up living among the Hedazza and as Charbonneau's wife, slash property, because Charbonneau being a fur trader and the Hedazza settlement that they lived at, being this kind of international trading post, he had kind of adopted like the Hedazza way of living himself. He had just being a fur trader, he had to be able to handle himself out in the elements. So I think it kind of, it was his speed from what I gathered for the rest of his life, he just basically lived in a style similar to Native Americans. So she, aside from being away from her native tribe, she lived, you know, probably fairly, in a fairly cosmopolitan manner, compared to how she would have had, she'd never been kidnapped from the Lemhi band of Shoshones, which is kind of sad, but there's one thing that should be said, there's documentary opinion that she was, she was not unhappy living on this kind of, this border land between the two cultures. Like she seemed to feel somewhat comfortable living among, the colonizer's way of life on the frontier, just as much as she did living among the Shoshone. - Yeah, and we should also point out that a lot of this is very little is recorded, a lot of speculative, because, you know, there's remarkable, well, I guess not remarkable, 'cause it was 1803, but very little, actual recorded information about her life. - But it's remarkable how much there is for the typical teenage Native American girl at the time, like the fact that there's anything recorded about her says, is it kind of a huge testimony to her and her personality? - No, absolutely. So 1803 is when Charbono takes control of her life, 1803 is also when Thomas Jefferson said, hey, we got this big, attractive land, really sweet deal called the Louisiana Purchase, 828,000 square miles of land stretching from the Canadian border to the Gulf of Mexico, from the Mississippi to Colorado, and we need to go see what's out there, because white people have never explored this territory. I wanna find a Northwest passage, which was eventually found, they were looking in the wrong place, but that's what they were sort of after, but they were after more. Jefferson really wanted to know what was out there, the landscape, he wanted maps, he wanted to know about the Native American tribes, he wanted to know about the plant life and the animal life, and just like go, Maryweather Lewis out there and record everything you can. - Yeah, Maryweather Lewis was Jefferson's personal secretary and Lewis selected, what was Clark's first name, Josh? - Billy. - William. - William Clark, Billy Clark, who had been his captain in the army as the leader of the expedition. He found him to be an able leader and said, hey, you wanna come lead this super high prestige expedition for the president, that the entire nation's going to be watching? And Clark said, sure, let's do it. So Lewis and Clark set out on this expedition, and they actually traveled, I think 1,600 miles before they ended up at that Hadazza settlement, which is about where they really started to hit the frontier from what I understand. - All right, that sounds like a great turning point to take a break. - Okay. - So we'll be back right after this, and pick up with the meeting of Lewis and Clark and Sakagawaia. (upbeat music) ♪ Stuff you should know ♪ ♪ Lost and show ♪ ♪ Ooh ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ Stuff you should know ♪ - Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. - Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. I'm Lexi Iwaneo, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Julio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. - I'm not gonna get any more than fighting. - That is wild. I learned that about you today. - Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business, and I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. - We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. - We're best friends, but we don't always agree. - Because you told us how accommodating you are. - Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. - Don't lie to me. - Don't lie to me. - Don't lie to me. - Liar. - Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, I don't really care. - I'm Hamza, and I'm Martin, and we're the host of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them going around, but why should you listen hours? - Well, we're only the best podcast in the entire world, and we talk about pretty much everything under the sun. For example, music we're listening to, underground music, trending music, drama in music worlds. Yes, sometimes we even talk about just everyday mundane situations in our lives, like the cool Uber driver we just had, or the food we just say that is surprisingly delicious. Or we'll talk about the Med Gala and the looks that they wore. Are they awesome, are they trendy? Come find out, because our opinion matters. And so does yours, and this is a place where all of our minds can come together and connect. - So what are you waiting for? Come connect with us. Listen Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. Get worse with Kyle Proo is not one of those podcasts. But if you're interested in blackmail, love bombing, cloning yourself, or getting revenge, then we've got a little something-something for a dastardly individual like you. Take a listen to some of the incredible advice we've given so far. 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(upbeat music) - Okay, Chuck, so we've reached what is now today, Bismarck North Dakota. - South Dakota. - South Dakota. - You sure? - I think so. - No, it's, it's not right. - Yeah, it's Bismarck North Dakota. - Are there two? - I was gonna say, it almost literally doesn't matter. - We're gonna get crushed for this. - It is, no, it's definitely Bismarck North Dakota. - Okay, then that was a misprint then in the. - I'll tell you what, get this. I've got this machine called the Compute Tor. - Are you actually gonna look it up? - Yeah, I'm gonna look it up. I'm gonna do a favor for the people of Bismarck for once. - Bismarck North Dakota. - Well, I think it is Dakota. - I think it's North Dakota. - It is. - That's weird because I think this is from how stuff works. So you got South Dakota written in there. - Oh, boy. All right, let's send an email. - I'm not gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna add them. - Yeah, don't you know that's the tagline of how stuff works? Don't add us. - That's right. So apologies to all the people in the, both Dakotas, all three Dakotas, we met nothing by it. And we're gonna do a live show there one day
makeup for it. Are we? Sure, why not? I'll tell you later. Okay. All right, where are we? It's November 2nd, 1804. When they finally land and they meet up with Chicago waya who is six months pregnant at this point. And Charbonneau is, I get the impression that he's a bit of a not a grifter maybe, but sort of an opportunist. Yeah. Yeah, I think so for sure. I mean, like he's a fur trader for Pete's sake. Like, you got to be, you got to be a little, like that includes not just survival in the woods and killing animals, but also having to, you know, get the highest price you can for your pets. So I'm guessing there's a bit of used car salesman to Charbonneau for sure. And he was not exactly, he was not well liked by Lewis and Clark. I don't know that he was heated or despised, but I get the impression from reading historians interpretations of their their journal entries about Charbonneau is that he's kind of a cross between Chris Farley. Okay. And Gollum maybe. I can't wait to see that Photoshop. Oh goodness. Yeah, I know who's going to take care of that for it. So just this idea that this guy was not confident necessarily and was maybe a little bit evil. And that's, that's, you know, all you need to know about Charbonneau. I also get the impression Chuck that there was a, there was a, you know, we'll talk about later, but there was Sakagawaia was plucked from historic obscurity and really kind of raised up on this pedestal. And I think rightly so. But there was a sport that developed alongside of that where you could very easily raise Sakagawaia up by contrasting her to her good for nothing, slave holdings, quote, husband and showing how just terrible he was at everything. It made her look all them all the much better. So I think there's a sport to it. There's kind of a long history of putting down Charbonneau. But I think that it's kind of rooted in fact from what I understand. Yeah. So at any rate, he comes along and he's like, Hey, you guys really need to bring me along and in my wife/property here. I speak Hitatsu and French. They're like, we don't really need that. But I see that Sakagawa speaks Shoshone. And we really need to learn that because at a certain point, we're going to need to talk to them to get some horses. And since we can't hire a woman because it's 1803, we have to actually hire the husband to get her to come along. I guess you both can come. Yeah. So like we got to explain why Sakagawaia being Shoshone was really important. And it was like you said, those horses and somehow, I'm not exactly sure how they already knew this because these are the first Americans to charter a course westward. But they knew that the the Missouri River and the Columbia River was separated by mountains, the Rocky Mountains, the bitter root mountains to be specific. And that since they were taking to the river, they were going to need to get from one river to the other and that the Shoshone Indians happen to live exactly where they needed, or where they needed to pass through, where they needed the most help, where they needed horses. And so having a Shoshone along to help broker a deal would be incredibly useful. So useful, in fact, that the arrangement was going to be that when they finally met up with the Shoshone tribe in this area where they needed the horses the most, Sakagawaia was going to speak to the Shoshone's. And then she was going to translate what the Shoshone's said into Hadata to Sharbono. Yeah. Sharbono was going to translate from Hadata into French for a French speaking member of the core discovery who would then translate from French into English for Lewis and Clark. That's how it didn't even speak English. No, he spoke Hadata in French. Okay, I thought that meant in addition to English. No, he did play a role that was important. He was going to translate from Hadata into French. It would have been way better if he had spoken English, but it just meant another person in the chain. Everything came out purple monkey dishwasher at the end. So one thing we fail to mention, I think, which is just remarkable is that a few a couple of months before they leave together, Sakagawaia has her son Jean-Baptiste, known as Baptiste. And I know we talked about this in Lewis and Clark, but I think I didn't have a kid at the time. It's just astounding to me now that I've had a two-month-old baby to take and like keeping that baby alive and all the comforts of, you know, modern-day America, to take a baby like that on a voyage like this is astounding. Yeah, for sure. It's really remarkable. Yeah, and I mean, like if you look at all of the memorials to Sakagawaia, I don't think there's one out there that doesn't also show Baptiste as well. Of course not. Not just because he was an adopted honorary member of the core discovery, basically a mascot, sure. But also because it just goes to point out just how astounding what his mom did was, you know. I think when Sakagawaia was put on the dollar coin in the United States in 2000, Hillary Clinton famously referred to her as the original working mom. Wow, that's pretty cool designation. I thought so too. So yeah, I think it's great to just that she's remembered as, you know, doing all this with a baby strap to her back the whole time. Right. So that's their plan. They plan to get there, send her out to talk to the Shoshone tribe to get these horses, but which was a good plan, but it was even way better. It worked out like almost like it had been written in a movie script or something because I think it is Lewis shows up first and has contact with an older woman of the tribe and then about 60 Shoshone on horseback right up. And they're like, you seem like a decent guy. Your friendly, let's all make this workout. Then Clark's group shows up about a day later with Sakagawaia, and they're like, oh my god, it's you. You were the one that was kidnapped and taken away so many years ago. And then chief Kamehawait rides up. And it's Sakagawaia's brother. Yeah. So not only do they get to have this reunion, but Lewis and Clark are like, yes, we're going to get such a good girl on these horses. Yeah. The chief is her brother. Like, this is perfect. But you know what that stuck out to me as Chuck? That meant that Sakagawaia probably would have met Lewis and Clark, even if she had never been kidnapped. Yeah, maybe so. Isn't that really crazy to think like that one way or another, she was going to probably meet Lewis and Clark, even with her life diverging that radically from its original projected path. Yeah. And what it really did was, I mean, she was already proving to be useful in that she could identify berries and things that you could eat and the plants that you could use as medicine and kind of acted as the navigator in a lot of cases. Like, no, we need to go this way. I've been here before. This is where I grew up. Yeah, there's a huge, huge rock called Beaverhead Rock that she famously recognized that you can go visit and stand in the place basically where she showed Lewis and Clark like, look, my people are going to be right around here. I recognize this place. Yeah. So they've already got all this respect for up into that point. And then she has such an end with the Shoshone, like you said, they get, I'm sure a really good deal on the horses and not only that, but they get help. They kind of partner up with them to help them along, which is a really big deal. Yeah, because Lewis and Clark's expedition had somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 people involved huge boats, several huge boats, lots of equipment, lots of instruments. And some people say, well, like, if they needed horses a bad way, they bring the horses because they travel by water. They really needed horses really, really badly, but just for this one specific part of the trip in between the Missouri and the Columbia River, Thomas Jefferson, very famously called a dilly of a pickle that they had run into. But the fact that they were able to get the horses from the Shoshone, it just basically checked this enormous box that the whole expedition was predicated on. They just couldn't, they could not have completed their mission without this. And so I could go way, I basically brokered that, made sure that box got checked. And there's one other thing that stands out about her too that gets overlooked that I saw in a few places. Sharbino had another wife who was Shoshone. And if they needed a Shoshone speaker, who was, you know, with Sharbino, who came with Sharbino, they could have very easily gone with with the other woman, the other, the other,
I guess victim was sharp or no, and they didn't. They went with Sakagawaia who knowing full well that she came with an infant now. Like there was going to be an infant even though with auto women there wouldn't have been. So clearly Sakagawaia is like putting out the right kind of vibes that's saying like, I'm extraordinarily competent. You should probably pick me even though if you pick me I'm going to be bringing a newborn baby along on this frontier trek. I think that says a lot about the kind of I guess charisma or competence or whatever she was putting out that Lewis and Clark were like, yes, I think she would be the better of the two. Yeah, because you don't want a two month old baby along. No, but if you're cute, but nah. But if you say, okay, we'll have a two month baby along. Like that says a lot about the mom that's carrying the baby around and her abilities are I think. Yeah, absolutely. She also approved her worth when, and I can't remember if we, I think we might have talked about this. When there was one of their sailing vessels almost capsized when a big squal hit it. Apparently, Sharma know was navigating he panicked under pressure and it was Sakagawaia who was calm and said, you know what, we need to get these papers together. We need to get the books that we've been writing in. All these navigational instruments and medicines and provisions and other stuff. We need to get it all together and take care of it. And also this baby and basically saved that situation and Sharma know was just, you know. He was like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. Oh my God. Sacrifice. Sacrifice. That's right. So yeah, that was that's one of the big stories that's told about Sakagawaia so much. So I mean that either Lewis or Clark wrote about it and basically it was like, this Sakagawaia is an amazing person. Like she's doing stuff that other members of the Corps are not doing. I mean there is, I think at least 12 members of the Corps of Discovery who aren't mentioned by name in either of the journals of Lewis and Clark throughout the expedition. They did work, they did their job obviously, but they didn't get mentioned because they weren't doing stuff like Sakagawaia was. And I think the fact that she's mentioned multiple times with kind of frequently discussing like just their impress, how impressed they were with her, it says a lot as well. Yeah, I mean they named because of that sailing incident they named a branch of the Missouri River after her. Yeah. And I think Clark was the one who really grew closer to her. It's really hard to get a read on exactly what the nature of their relationship was. It seems just like maybe a mentor type of relationship and that he kind of took her under his wing and took these long walks with her. I don't think there's anything untoward about it is kind of what I'm getting at. I don't have that impression either and I have not run across a history and that's asserted that there was something untoward about it either. The way I took it, the way, yeah they were. The way I took it was like an adopted little sister kind of thing. Yeah, that's kind of the way I see it too. I also don't think Charbonneau would have stood for that. I think that would have been not okay with him 'cause he was the kind of guy who'd be like, that's my property, you know? Right, well of course. So yeah, I don't have that impression but yeah, I thought the same thing, you know, as well. And the fact they thought so much of her, especially Clark that, and this is a really telling thing is that when they reached the Pacific coast, there was a vote on whether or not to stay there for the winter or not. And they actually let her vote, which in the early 1800s, to let a woman have a vote like that was remarkable. Yeah. So when they decided to stay that vote led to them staying in what's now a story of Oregon, they built a winter quarters called Fort Clatsup after a friendly tribe nearby. And Fort Clatsup? So I thought too, but it's close. There's an L in there. Yeah, Clatsup. But the Clatsup people said, hey, get this, there's a beached whale. You gotta see this thing, it's enormous. And so I think Lewis was like, okay, we're gonna go check this out. You guys stay here. And Saika go away, I know we talked about this in the Lewis and Clark episode. Saika go away, I said, look, man. I have walked a long ways and helped you guys out. And the idea that you're not going to let me see the ocean. I've never seen any ocean. You're not gonna let me see the ocean. And there's giant whale that's been beached. Come on. And so Lewis relented very famously. And was like, okay, come along. So Saika go away, she put her foot down basically and said, no, I'm going to see this. That would be unusually cruel not to let me. So she went and saw this giant whale. She saw the ocean for the first time. I mean, that's a pretty big, I've never seen a beached whale. Imagine seeing a beached whale the first time you see the ocean, too, you know? Yeah, I remember when I was a young kid, when we showed my grandmother the ocean for the first time. And she was in her, she was probably in her 70s. She lived to be 100. Wow. So she had to be in her mid 70s when we took her to the ocean. Yeah. And we walked her out there and she walked out on the beach. I'll never forget it and said, oh, it's big. That's cute. And that was about it. She didn't hang it up for a long time. You said, oh, I'm good. This was enough. Yeah. And there was no whale to poke with a stick. So, you know, I'm kidding. By the way, you should never do that. Poke a whale with a stick? Yeah, I was making a joke. That wasn't nice. I think everybody knew that, Chuck. Yeah, you try and get that whale back in the water if you can. Not with the stick, though. Not with the stick. You want to take our second break? Yeah, we'll talk about how this all wrapped up and what happened to her afterward ride for this. [MUSIC PLAYING] Stuff you should know. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my god, Lexi. I'm Lexi Iwanio, where two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa de Julio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not getting any worse than fighting. That is wild. And I've always got something to say. We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight. But there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. I'm Hamza. And I'm Martin. And we're the hosts of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them to listen to these days. How are you going to get to us? Well, there's a specific reason why you should listen to us. We are the best podcast in the entire world. I swear. I know, bold. But why don't we list some of the things we might talk about on a regular episode? So sometimes we'll talk about, I don't know, the Uber driver we just had. And how nice they were, or if we tip them or not, come and find out. Sometimes we'll talk about that weird news story from last week. It's the one you're thinking about. Trust me. Or maybe we'll talk about music and what's happening in the underground or drama and music, or TV shows, or the Med Gala and what the actors wore. What we're saying is we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun. And if you want to see what that's like, come join us. It's a place where everyone can hang out, anyone, wherever you're from, whatever you're like, you're welcome. Listen Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. But if you're interested in blackmail, love, bombing, cloning yourself, or getting revenge, then we've got a little something, something for a dastardly individual like you. Fake a back injury. Get the spray tan up your alcohol consumption. - Kill them. - Kill 'em. Kill 'em with a gun. Listen, it's already over. The next time a bear is running at you, you just calmly stop what you're doing. You look the bear in the eye, and you say this isn't you. Do not preserve relationships. You don't need them. Listen to Get Worse with Kyle Pru on the I-Harm Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) Okay, so they made it to the Pacific. They overwintered there, and I think 1805, 1806. And then they started to make their way back.
They actually went right back to the same Hedazza settlement, the international training post, or outside of Bismarck, North Dakota, where they picked up Sharbono and Sakagoya, and they said, "Hey, thanks a lot, we'll see you guys later." Everywhere I saw, Sharbono was paid something like $500.33 for his efforts, and Sakagoya was not paid anything. Although I saw it also in this article that she was paid as well, do you have any idea? Yeah, I was confused to everywhere else I looked said that she did not get direct payment. Which article said that she did? I don't know, but it doesn't seem to be right. Or maybe they just sort of said, "Well, since her captor/husband was paid, then sort of mean she was." I'm not sure, but that's all nowhere else that said that she was actually paid independently. I mean, that would make the most sense, although after that expedition, I would also not be surprised if she was paid directly, even though it bucked convention. Yeah, he got paid $500 and 320 acres of land, which was pretty good, and like I tried to do an inflation comp, but they don't even have anything. I think it said, "When you go that far back, you can't even compare it to today's currency." Oh, really? Wesley gave me an estimate of about nine grand. Oh, see, I saw that too, but I didn't see that as a direct inflation calculator, more like the goods that you could have bought back then. No, they said nine grand. No, I saw that. It just didn't seem like a one-to-one to me. No, I see. Even still, it seems like really, I would imagine $500 back then would be like $10 trillion today. You know? Yeah, it would seem, it would seem to be the case. It's a little weird, but yeah, because I mean like a journey of thousands of miles at the behest of the president of the United States, getting paid nine grand, it just seems like you would get more than that, I don't know. But then again, he's a fur trapper who only speaks it out to him in France, so who knows? I think what confused me is, like if you enter $500 a hundred years later, it's like $15,000, or maybe that does work. I don't know. It just didn't seem to work out math wise, but what do I know? Yeah, no, I'm with you. You kind of have to be able to peer back into the vagaries of the American economy over the last couple of hundred years to assess that out. I looked it up and it said what that would be today would be 280 beaver details in $9,000. There's poor beaver. I know. That's the other thing about Charbono that people don't say, he killed a lot of animals for their health. That's right. All right, so after the expedition, she stayed with Charbono, I think a few years later, they moved to, with Little Bebtis, moved to St. Louis. Yeah, the invitation of Clark, right? Yeah, and it says that he offered them an opportunity of land to farm, which I don't quite get because he just got 320 acres of land. I was wondering if that was one in the same. Maybe. It couldn't quite parse that out, but at any rate, he's like, here, you come here. Here's some land to farm. If you let me educate your son in the American sort of schooling system, and he was the godfather of the boy at that point, really cared a lot about Bebtis and Chicago, and one of the best for him. I think that was a pretty decent deal for Charbono. Yeah, so I believe Clark officially adopted Bebtis as his guardian, at least, if not as his adoptive parent, and he was educated at the St. Louis Academy, I believe, and then he, I don't know how he met him, but Bebtis went on to meet a German prince, who was like, "Hey, you should totally come back and hang with me in Germany, and I'll make sure you get a European education," and he did. He moved to Europe and was educated there, lived a pretty interesting life, said, yeah, I'm going to go back to America, became a trapper for a while, had a bunch of different interesting jobs. I believe it was a hotel clerk in Auburn, California for a little while. So, yeah, he did a bunch of different stuff, and had a pretty amazing life, in addition to basically being the official mascot of the core of Discovery's expedition. Yeah, and he ended up taking guardianship because Charbono and Chicago ate left in April 1811 to go on another fur trading expedition, and they left Bebtis with him. Right. So, I think it kind of worked out for everyone. Yeah. Yeah, I get the impression it wasn't like, "We don't want our kid, and Louis will give me your kid." Yeah. I think it was for the best interest of the kid, and they all loved him very much. That's the impression I have. She also had a daughter about a year after that in 1812, Lisette, or Lisette, I don't know if it's an S or a Z, and this is where we get to the sort of fork in the road as to what actually happened to Chicago way. There are a couple of stories. One is that she died not long after what was called Putrid fever, which is probably typhoid fever. That's terrible. There's another story, and which she would have been about 25 years old in December of 1812. There's another story that she went on to live a very long life in another part of the country, but I think that one has kind of been shot down. Right. Yeah. So, at the turn of the last century, Chicago way I was kind of dug out of obscurity. Well, actually, there was a guy who was the official, I don't know, biographer, chronicler of the Corps of Discovery's expedition, where he was in charge. His name was Biddle, I believe. He was in charge of basically taking the notes of the Corps of Discovery, getting them ready for publication. You just couldn't publish the whole thing like that. He edited them, basically. But he also interviewed Clark, and out of his interviews with Clark, we found a lot more out about Chicago way than we knew before, and Biddle was like, "This is a very interesting story right here. I'm going to put Chicago way in front and center." So, he kind of brought Chicago way into the foreground for the first time. But then, almost a century later, the women's suffrage movement, I was starting to gain momentum, there was a woman named Emily, no, Eva Emery Die, who wrote a book about the Lewis and Clark expedition and said, "Here's my heroine, Chicago way is a heroine. I'm going to be able to use her as an icon for the suffragette movement." And that's how she kind of became this symbol from that point on. I don't remember what kicked off the spiel, though. You asked a question, and you said something, "What was it, do you remember?" What spiel? My spiel about how Chicago way was kind of brought out of obscurity by these writers. Oh, oh, oh, this idea came from that she had gone on to live a long life. That first book that was written by Eva Emery Die was picked up by another historian who said, "You know what, I've heard these stories about this woman who went on to live at the Wind River Reservation, and I think she's actually Chicago way, and that kind of kicked off this whole hunt." Yeah, because like you said, there are numerous people who wrote down sort of officially that she did die very young at 25 years old, including, I think, Clark. And one of his, I think like maybe a financial leisure, leisure, ledger, it was a cash book about like where people, like where are they now basically, and how they've been paid. And next to her name, he just wrote, "Dead," which not even a frowny face. Next to her. I guess if it's a ledger, you're just trying to sort of, you know, be cold about it. But for someone who really cared a lot about it, it seemed, it probably wasn't the right place to wax philosophical. Right. But also some people have said, well, no, he was covering for her because she, the legend goes that she'd left Charbonneau, ran off to live a life away from her as an independent woman. Right. Exactly. Which really kind of dovetailed with the suffragette movements push for women's rights. So that was a great idea that that's what she did. And the idea was that Clark was covering for her in his little cash allegedly by saying she was dead, knowing full well she was alive. Other people are like, who's going to ever look in Clark's cash ledger, like Charbonneau's ever going to get his hands on it? That's probably not correct. And the whole idea that she went on to live on the Wind River Reservation until age 100 when she died in like the 1880s makes for a good story. It makes for a great story. And there was a woman who did live like that. Her name was Paura Evo, also known as Basil's mother, who lived to be a hundred. And a lot of people said, "No, that's soccer, go away, yeah."
but that was before more historical record came out, including an account from a guy who worked for the same fur trading company that Charbono did, new Charbono personally, and wrote in his journal, had no reason to make anything up, but in December, I think on December 20th of 1812, was it? - Yeah. - Wrote that Charbono's wife, he's the one who said that she had a putrid fever and died, and that she was the best woman in the fort. She was a good woman and the best woman in the fort, she was aged about 25 years, which totally fits the bill for Chicago Wayah. - And she left the fine infant girl. - Yes, so once that guy's journal was found, that was basically the nail in the coffin of the idea that Chicago Wayah had lived to age 100 after escaping her captor husband. - Yeah, I think what's kind of cool is, even though there's very little, officially recorded about her life everywhere, she is recorded, it's all glowing praise. There's not one entry where anyone was ever like, boy, Chicago Wayah and that baby, you're really like, what a mistake that was. By all accounts, she was a boon to the core of discovery and a big, big part of its success. - Yeah, and so as a result, Chuck, lifetime is in lifetime movie network lifetime. I couldn't find the year, but they recently conducted a survey of memorials to create the lifetime herstory map. And of I think a 5,500 plus statues, monuments and memorials that exist in the United States, only about 200, which is around 4% honor women, but of those 216 honor Chicago Wayah, which means that she is the most honored woman via monuments and statues in the entire United States. - Amazing. - The first one from what I read was by a group of suffragettes in Portland, Oregon in 1905, and that statue is obviously still there today, and it is beautiful and guess who's strapped to her back in the statue. - What's that? - Close enough. - Little Baptiste. - Little Baptiste, that's right. You got anything else? - No, other than, and we should mention, I don't think we know a lot about what happened to Leset. Unfortunately, she was sort of lost to history. - Yeah, for sure. I guess that's it. - That's it. - All right, so since we said that's it, that means it's time everybody for listener mail. - Yeah, we're gonna do a couple of corrections, a bit of a maya culpa for me and a correction. - Oh, I like that. - I said the word redneck a lot, entitled the episode about the clan, used the word redneck. And, you know, I probably shouldn't have. That's a derogatory term. The name actually has a different history. I think West Virginia cold miners has something to do with that, and I just wasn't really being as sensitive enough. I'm not apologizing for degrading the clan. - Right. - But I probably shouldn't use the word redneck with such a broad brush. - But think about it, Chuck, that means the clan is so rotten. They give redneck a bad name. (laughing) That's essentially what we're saying here. - I love it. And then, as from that same episode, we need to address the Robert Bird incident. - Oh, yeah. - Because you're from a lot of people. - That was all me. - Yeah, so I think we were talking about Senator Robert Bird sort of being unapologetic about being in the clan. That was very much not the case. This is one of the many emails, and this is from Aaron Patrick Lions, he/him/his. Hey, listen to the great episode in the KKK, and as usual, did a bang-up job. However, I have to take issue with Josh's statement indicating that Senator Robert Bird was an unrepentant clansman. He was indeed an exalted cyclops or local leader of the clan in the 50s, or into the 50s. But through the 70s and 80s, he had a sincere change of heart regarding race relations and voted for the Martin Luther King Junior National holiday among other legislation in his very long career. He was deeply embarrassed and apologetic about his time in the clan. And that is, like I said, from Aaron Patrick Lions and Cedar Falls, Iowa. We heard from a lot of people that not only did he vote for the MLK holiday, but apparently did a lot of work for legislation for equal rights for African Americans. - I totally love that one. So my apologies to Robert Bird's family for tarnishing his legacy in that small way, and I'm glad we got corrected almost immediately right after the episode came out. It was, "Can't believe you guys used Redneck so much, you were totally wrong about Robert Bird." So this listener mail is perfect. And then there's one other thing I want to say too about the Redneck thing, Chuck. - Yeah. - Somebody pointed out, I think it was on Twitter that using the word Redneck was not only derogatory towards Redneck's, it obfuscated, it covered up all of the people who aren't Rednecks, who are just kind of everyday normal people who are either in the clan or subscribe to the clan's ideologies. That it makes it seem like just this marginal group, or a marginal thought or a friend's thought when it's really kind of subscribed to by an alarming number of people that, you know, you live and work beside and might never really guess at just how deep their racism goes. So I think that's another reason to have issued it as well. - Yeah, and, you know, I'm not gonna stick up for myself, but I think when you grow up in the South, you might feel like you have a little bit of ownership on your own like that. - For sure. - So, yeah, my apologies to all the great Rednecks of the world. - That's right. Sorry Jeff Foxworthy, sorry Larry the cable guy, who's actually not really a Redneck if you listen to David Cross's beef with him. - Yeah, I mean, that's fully an act, right? - Yeah, from what I understand. - He created that persona to get more fans of comedy. - That's right, smart me, that's right. And, well, I guess since we started talking about Larry, the cable guy that's the end of this episode and listen to her mail is petered out. And if you want to get in touch with us to correct us or call us out for something or whatever, lay it on us, send us an email to
[email protected]. (upbeat music) - This stuff you should know is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the I Heart Radio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. - Lisa, tell them about our new show. - We have a new podcast, it's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwanyu, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my food days, I've lived it all. - Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. - There are thousands of podcasts that can tell you how to better yourself. If you're interested in blackmail, love, bombing, cloning yourself, or getting revenge, then we've got a little something, something for a dastardly individual like you. - Listen to get worse with Kyle Pru on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - I'm Hamza, and I'm Martin, and we're the hosts of Out of Character, the best podcast in the world, is what they said. - Wait, they said that? - Yeah, yeah, they said that. - The best podcast with two best friends who jabber and talk about topical, trendy, funny stuff, give our input on it. That's what you've needed, I think, up until now, listener. - Listen to Out of Character on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Sometimes I just feel like a burden. - You're a bird, you fly, you're a morn. - When we are? - Out of character podcasts. - Dude, who may I stop the clip? - This is an I Heart Podcast, guaranteed human.
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