Selects: How Dopamine Works

This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Nekkerd in 2022. I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. But here's the thing. Bachelor fans hated him. If I could press a button and rewind it all I would. That's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one night stand would end in a courtroom. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. Listen to Love Trap on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Amanda Knox. And in the new podcast Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? It has been made to fit. What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, happy Saturday. Chuck here with a curated select episode in which we bring out a classic from Dusted off from the old Duss bin. So you can give it a listen. This one is called How Dope a Mean Works. And it's one of obviously one of our more sciencey episodes. And I managed to struggle to get through it. Because you know I'm not good at these. But it was a great episode. So I hope you like it. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. The three amigos back together again after some massively triumphant live shows. Yeah. We did our little Northeast spring swing. Yeah. And it was great. This is a good show. Which one? The podcast topic that we did that we did live. Oh I got it. That we're doing all year. I got it. It was pretty good. I love that topic. That's what you call an on-sequitor. But it does feel good to be back. Doesn't it back in the studio back doing what we're born to do? I kind of prefer on stage, but sure. This is great too. Do you like the thrill of the audience, the roar of the crowd, that bowl running in you? Yeah. Nice. I like it too sometimes when I'm not totally terrified because I drank too much energy drinks. Well, I wonder if your dopamine receptors are functioning as they should. Yeah. That's a great question, Chuck. And that's a wonderful segue too because it just so happens that today the topic of this episode is dopamine. And there's probably no more misunderstood neurochemical, certainly neurochemical, maybe substance in your body at all than dopamine. We used to think we had a really great handle on dopamine and what it does and how it works. And it turns out that we are every turn a new study comes along that says, nope, we're wrong. Yep, we're wrong about that. What about, yep, wrong about that. Basically, everything we know in popular culture. And I mean, if you've even gone to Cleveland Clinic website or WebMD website or Harvard Health has some articles, you'll see this old antiquated outdated view of what dopamine is being kind of paraded around. The idea that it's a pleasure inducing chemical that if something gives you pleasure, you're responding to a hit of dopamine and that is just absolutely not true. Yeah, and this may be the most oft-covered stuff you should know thing that hasn't gotten its own title yet. Yeah. Man, dopamine is the raining champ right now. Yeah, we talk about this stuff all the time, it seems like. Yeah, we do because it comes up a lot and the reason why is because it turns out it has a lot to do with more than just pleasure. Like everybody, yes, it is associated with pleasure, just not the way we've thought for very long. And it does a lot of other stuff too. Essentially, what it does is it signals things. It says, hey, you behave or you act up. You stop behaving. Something like that. I'm not quite sure exactly what it says. I don't speak dopamine. Neurotransmitter, so it's a chemical messenger in the brain at base. But it's associated with so many different things that of course dopamine comes up all the time in our podcast. It sure does. So it is, like you said, a neurotransmitter, one of more than 100 of those bad boys functioning in our bodies. And like you said, it lets things communicate. It's a facilitator. But it gets all the press for it's, you know, like the feel good stuff that you mentioned. Addiction behaviors, whether it's gambling or drugs or the thrill of, you know, those people that walk around on ledges and stuff. Ledge walkers. Yeah, led walkers. But it does all kinds of things. That's just where it makes the newspaper headlines. Right. But we should probably talk a little bit about just the neurotransmitter cycle that it goes through. Sure. So the whole thing starts. It turns out that dopamine is used throughout the body, but the, in, for the most part, it's used in the brain. The problem is, is if you like had a big handful of dopamine and you just shoved it in your mouth, it couldn't make it into your brain for use. It can't cross the blood brain barrier in other words. Fortunately, the thing that makes dopamine up, it's essential ingredient, tyrosine, an amino acid, can cross the blood brain barrier. And when it gets there, it gets a big fat hug from something called tyrosine hydroxylase. And that converts it into dopamine and all of a sudden your brain's like, yes, let's go. That's right. And we've known about it a long time. It's been around a long time. It is not exclusive to human beings. No, that's a big one. Yeah, it's in all kinds of animals. But we are really kind of great at making it. And I was about to say hooked on it, but that implies the whole addiction thing. And I don't want to go down that road. But humans love the stuff and we produce about three times as much as other primates do. Yes. And in fact, Emily Deane's wrote an article in 2011, I think on psychology today, she's an evolutionary psychiatrist. And she said that dopamine is what made humans so successful. And from what I can tell, the latest research about dopamine is that it essentially is what allows us to learn about the world around us. We make connections that collectively form our mental map of the world of how we're to behavior on other people, of how we do things like go get food, that dopamine is somehow behind all of it and that because we're so responsive to dopamine, and we produce so much dopamine compared to other animals in the animal kingdom, that is conceivably what has allowed us to become as successful as we are compared to other animals. And that nuts, like it could all just come down to dopamine essentially. Yeah, and opposable thumbs maybe. Sure, but I mean what are opposable thumbs if you can't have get the where with all the to move it. True, but if you had the where with all to move it, you couldn't grab something. Yes, you can. You can use the heels of both hands, just like a thumb. Are you under selling the opposable thumb? Yes, I'm sick of the opposable thumb always hogging the spotlight. It's dopamine's time. You can get those removed, you know, see how you do. I guess that sounds like a dare to me, Chuck. Say goodbye to your tennis game. I can play it just by holding the racket with both heels of my hand. Or I guess we should have said pickleball would be more current, right? I don't play pickleball. I haven't tried it yet. I want to though. Okay. Well, there's plenty of places and people to play it with. Yet I have found no one or no place. Oh, I'm sure somebody will write in an offer to play with you. Of course. Then I go out there and I like blow my ACL or something. Oh, God. That was nice. So at the highest level, you know, we kind of talked about this a thousand times before. But dopamine functions as a neurotransmitter. It enables signals to pass through these gaps, these synapses, and make connection from neuron to neuron. And that's just sort of the bird's eye view. But there are all kinds of things that dopamine does. And depending what kinds of neurons it's talking to and it's introducing to one another, it's going to have different effects on the human body. Yes. So there's D1 to D5. I think types of receptors dopamine receptors. in four pathways that they follow. And like you said, depending on what receptor is being activated and what pathways being followed, all sorts of different stuff can happen. Dopamine is associated with motor control, learning, memory, malfunctions in it can result in psychosis. They use dopamine as a vasostimulant to treat heart conditions. It has just a cluster of different effects on the body depending on where it's being processed. Like what pathway it's being processed, right? And I think that there's four of them total. Did you want to talk about this? I feel like we should. Okay. The first one is the Nygros triadal tract. Nice. You mentioned motor control first and that's the tract that has to do with motor control. Yeah. So if those aren't working correctly, the one that the dopamine neurons are the dopaminergic pathway in the Nygros triadal tract, that can result in Parkinson's. It's very famously associated with dopamine for anybody who has read Awakening's or saw the movie. Yeah. Which we'll probably talk about a little bit more later. That movie? Yeah. Okay. I got a great great bit up my sleeve. Okay. The second pathway is a mezzo corticol pathway. That has a lot to do with executive functioning. Yeah. Prioritizing stuff, how your brain plans things, how it files away stuff, and how it, you know, how it organizes your overall sort of priorities. Yes. And now it's time to talk about the most random dopaminergic pathway of all. The Tuberro and Fundibular pathway. Tuberro and Fundibular. Yeah. I think you had it right the first time. Okay. We'll edit out the second one. All right. We'll put in a slide whistle over it. So that connects the hypothalamus and the pituitary gland. And it's from what I can tell, I was like, well, what else does it do? It's so the sole role of this pathway is to block the production of milk or to, yes, to prevent the production of milk in the female breast of mammals. That's what it does. That's that, whether it's that pathway's role. And if you block that pathway, the milk production begins. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. We talked about that in the two-parter, the old breastfeeding two-parter. Oh, we did? Oh, yeah. Oh, I don't remember that. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's where it comes. Great memory. No, I have a terrible memory. I know you're making fun of me. There's also the mesolimbic pathway. We've talked a lot about the limbic system in the episode in many episodes. Reward and emotion. And this is the one where this is the one that gets all the press because this is the one that has to do with addiction. Pleasure. And we're going to talk a lot about reward and how reward factors end to how dopamine works. Right. This is the reason why some people get the chemical drawing of the molecular drawing of dopamine, like tattooed on their wrists, because they're so hedonic and into pleasure. That's why you might see somebody with that. Because of that pathway. I never heard of that. Yeah. It's a thing. Unfortunately, it turns out to be a misinterpretation, but it is a thing that people do sometimes. Sure. So, you know, we talked about misunderstandings about dopamine. And up until not too long ago, we didn't know a lot about exactly how dopamine worked in the body. And there was a misguided thought that there was something called volume transmission at work, which was you just sort of, well, you don't flood. We'll talk about, you know, artificially flooding dopamine, which is also a problem that resulted from this misnomer. But dopamine just went very slowly. It was not very specific at all. Just kind of washed over the brain. And if it made some connections with various neurons, then that was kind of the dumb luck of dopamine, because dopamine is just dopey. Right. Here's a great example of just how wrong we got dopamine. It turns out the process that dopamine is excreted and crosses into the synapse and creates like an electrical transmission in the brain is the exact opposite of volume transmission. It could not be more opposite than the idea that just floods slowly across the brain and whatever it runs into it runs into. We found that in milliseconds, a precise squirt of dopamine hits exactly the right neuron and exactly the right places right on the money. That's how dopamine is excreted, the exact opposite of volume transmission. Yeah. And we learned that not too long ago, 2018 medical researchers at Hobbid released this paper and said, hey, guess what everyone is the opposite of everything you've been saying and everyone want, oh, okay, sorry about that. Sure. Might be. So after the dopamine is excreted and it does its job, it actually breaks down remarkably quickly. It turns into something to metabolize into something called homovanilic acid. Right. And from what I can tell, I don't know what the homo does to the vanilla acid, but vanilla, vanilla acid is the flavor of vanilla. So from what I can tell, if you tasted the, the, the homovanilic acid, which is like the metabolite found in cerebrospinal fluid that we test to see how much dopamine you have in your brain at any given time, it may taste like vanilla. Wow. It's gross. It is gross. And I don't know also if we said that just 20,000 neurons are capable of synthesizing dopamine, but that's a really small proportion of the total number of neurons we have to about 100 billion, I think. Yeah, absolutely. You want to take a break? Yeah, we'll break and we'll talk about, well, what everyone wants to hear about, which is how dopamine and pleasure hold hands with one another. I'm Clayton Nackered and in 2022, I was the lead of ABCs, the bachelor. Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan. He became the first bachelor to ever have his final rose rejected. The internet turned on him. If I could press a button and rewind it all, I would. But what happened to Clayton after the show made even bigger headlines. It began as a one night stand and ended in a courtroom with Clayton at the center of a very strange paternity scandal. The media is here. The dating contract. Agreed to date me, but I'm also suing you. Please search for it. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. This season, an epic battle of he said she said, and the search for accountability in a sea of lies. I have done nothing to get hurted by the bachelor. Listen to Love Trap on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Chetty. Host of the on-purpose podcast. My latest episode is with Hilary Duff, singer, actress and multi-platinum artist. Hilary opens up about complicated family dynamics, motherhood, and releasing our first record in over 10 years. We talk about what it's taken to grow up in the entertainment industry and stay grounded through every chapter. It's a raw and honest conversation about identity, evolution and building a life that truly matters. You desire in family like this picture and that's not reality a lot of the time it's for people. My sister and I don't speak. It's definitely a very painful part of my life and I hope it's not forever, but it's for right now. Listen to on-purpose with Jay Chetty on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You know Rol Dahl, the writer who thought up Willy Wonka, Matilda and the BFJ. But did you know he was also a spy? Was this the story he wrote his stories? I must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Rol Dahl, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What? And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, because I was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Play poker with Harry Truman and had a long affair with a congresswoman. 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But the idea being discredited is pretty old too. Like it didn't last very long. The problem is its legacy stuck around for a really long time, it's still around today. - Yeah, for sure. There was a researcher speaking of old, named James Old in the 50s and 60s who did some experiments with rats and said, "Hey, every time I give these rats "a little electrical stimulation in just the right place, "right there behind the ear, "they're gonna keep pulling that lever down "or whatever act I'm making them do." They'll just do that over and over and over and over and over as long as I keep stimulating that area. - Right. So what they said was, okay, there's something going on with dopamine in this, I guess pleasurable act that the rat is doing to itself. And that got followed up in the 70s by, I mean, Roy Wise, who depleted dopamine receptors in rats and found that they would not seek out food and they wouldn't seek out methamphetamines that were just there on the offer. Those rats could have as much methods they wanted and they were like, "Nah, I don't want any." And crucially critically, Roy Wise and his colleagues misinterpreted that as a lack of experience of pleasure, not a lack of motivation. And it wasn't until the 80s that some other people came along and were like, "No, we've been getting this wrong "all this time." - Yeah, the 80s, they use sugar instead of methamphetamine, I guess. And once again, very kind of cruelly, they cut off, didn't allow them any dopamine, they killed them off with drugs, but this time they gave them the sugar and they said, they're liking the sugar, you can tell by the look on that little guy's face, did he enjoy it? But, and this is the key, it's not coming back and saying, "Give me more sugar, give me more sugar." - Right, or give me more meth. - Sure. - So this whole thing, this changed our understanding, at least in the, like academia, among people who study this kind of thing, we realized we were misinterpreting what we were seeing, and that a lack of dopamine didn't lead to a lack of pleasure called an aedonia, or anodonia, it was a lack of motivation to seek out that pleasure. That's the effect of not having enough dopamine that we found from those rat tests. So like this whole new framework of understanding it kind of came along, because to be clear, dopamine is very much associated with things that give us pleasure, and it does seem like the more pleasurable something is, the more dopamine gets released. Like for example, I think I saw like eating something that tastes really good, increases your dopamine levels by 100% sometimes, but cocaine increases your dopamine levels 10 times that. So that more intense, the pleasurable experiences, the more dopamine gets released. So it's definitely associated with it. What they found is like the dopamine is not making you feel pleasure. There's something else involved. It's just, it's never caught with the smoking gun, but it's always there when the dead body's found, and it has this mysterious smile on its face because it knows you can't prove anything. - Yeah, well, it's liking versus wanting, and that's a theory of reward behavior, where liking is that pleasure that hits you get, right, when you put that bite of peanut butter pie in your mouth, is that pleasure? Wanting is the motivation to earn the reward that you get out of having that peanut butter pie. - Right. - Like, you know, you're up in the hotel room, they don't have room service, but you can get up out of bed, and you can get dressed, and you can get down the stairs, 'cause the elevator's broken, and get that peanut butter pie if you want to. But dopamine isn't enough to motivate you to get up and go get that peanut butter pie necessarily, even though you have great, great memories of the taste of it on your tongue, and you'd love that stuff. - Right, but if you do get up and go get that peanut butter pie, that means that in the past, you've had peanut butter pie, or have created an image of the peanut butter pie you've never had, that's so great that the dopamine is produced in enough amounts to actually get you up out of bed, dressed in going down the stairs to get that peanut butter pie. They're related in that way. - Yeah, absolutely. So it's not actually causing the pleasure, it's just influencing how your brain is taking all this stuff in basically, and there are a couple of different ways of looking at how this happens. There's one theory called a, that it's prediction error, so you get more bang for your buck basically. You expect it to like that peanut butter pie, but this was the best peanut butter pie you've ever had. Maybe the best dessert you've ever had in your life. And you're like, wow, your brain says, that was way, way better than I thought it was gonna be, so it reinforces it. - Right, and to put it in kind of computational terms, dopamine is a prediction error, somehow that chemical measures the difference between what you expected and the amazing reward you got, and the greater the difference, the more pronounced the connection that dopamine is gonna make between going and getting peanut butter pie and eating peanut butter pie. So you'll have more motivation to do it next time. - Yeah, the other way of thinking about it is the dopamine itself is the motivational signal. So it's what makes me get out of that bed and put on my clothes and actually go down those stairs because I'm motivated to go get that reward. - Right, and this is where that awakening's anecdote comes in. - Let's hear it. - So you were talking about how the peanut butter pie motivating you to get out of bed and actually go. That definitely jibes with research, particularly something reported by Oliver Sachs in the book and then later the movie Awakening's, there was an epidemic of something called encephalitic lethargya, which is what happened to Robert De Niro's character. Remember as a boy he caught this thing and then he just kind of froze in place. It's where you develop Parkinson's symptoms so much that you just don't, you can't move. You cannot move. You have, you don't have the required dopamine to actually move. So you're just sitting there frozen in place like a statue, but anybody who saw this movie, remembers being amazed by the scene, if a certain patient is stimulated, their dopamine is stimulated just enough, they can actually overcome that being frozen in place. And so there's a famous scene where Oliver Sachs tossed one of the patients some oranges and she caught them. Like she was a frozen statue and all of a sudden she's catching oranges and then juggles with them. - Yeah. - Or there's another patient that was on the beach, I believe in their wheelchair, saw someone drowning and was motivated to get up and go save the person and then come back and go back to this frozen statue kind of stasis. - Great scene. - It is. So like that has to do with the motivational aspect of dopamine and that given the right stimulus, even something that tremendous has just a crazy amount of Parkinson's symptoms can be overcome or overwhelmed by that dopamine hit. - Yeah, absolutely. And then jumping back to that first one, the prediction error, they've done research on people who gamble, who play cards and play the slot machines and stuff and their brain's experience about the same amount of dopamine activity when they almost win. Like you got that big pot in the middle of the table, you're playing poker and you lose it the last second. Your dopamine level will be about the same as if you had actually won it. - Yes. - Which is pretty remarkable. - And then I think it kind of qualifies as a third interpretation. The most current study I've seen sees dopamine is essentially the thing that allows us to learn. If you connect one thing to another, it's because dopamine, had you make that connection and then depending on what kind of effect those two things have on you, that connection might be very, very strong. So you're motivated to go seek it out again, but at base what dopamine is doing is allowing us to form connections. Imagine the world if we didn't connect one thing to another. Like if I didn't connect, turning on the computer and stepping up to the microphone and recording a podcast, like we wouldn't do anything, we would just be completely lost if we couldn't make connections. And it seems like dopamine is the basis of all that. - Yeah, pretty cool. Like the whole world would suffer because we wouldn't be podcasting Chuck. (laughing) - Well, that's debatable. - You know, we're not poo-pooing the idea that addiction and dopamine are heavily tied with one another. We're just sort of trying to point out that there's a lot of other things at play when it comes to dopamine and that sort of is unfairly maybe gotten all the press. But we do have to talk about it some more. We talked about it plenty of time, certainly in our addiction podcast episodes. But it does play a pretty big role in drug abuse and addiction. It does reinforce the idea that you want to keep using those drugs because it's making you feel good. When we're talking about the woman juggling oranges in that movie and how remarkable that is, if they've given you Parkinson's drugs and they just flood your brain with dopamine, they found that 10% of the people that have had that treatment turn into gambling addicts. I would imagine they're people who are already gambled. I don't think it could drove them to start gambling, but that just goes to show you the power of what a flood of dopamine will do to your brain. It's a pretty clunky way to deal with it, I think. I think that's what you were referring to earlier when you were saying that understanding of volume transmission theory of dopamine release. That's what the drugs are based on, understanding and that misunderstanding. That's what happens. It's like, yes, if it does crawl across the brain and runs into whatever neurons that it can trigger, it's going to have all sorts of other knock-on effects. Yeah, totally. I guess our current understanding of how dopamine relates to addiction is that it connects drugs with pleasure. As I was saying before, the more intense the experience, especially the reward, you can have a negative experience. I think they're starting to figure out dopamine has something to do with that too. As far as we know, the more intense the reward, the greater the flood of dopamine and so the greater the stronger the connection you make between pressing a lever and a scientist giving you a bunch of math. Yeah, absolutely, but that is to be clear just part of the recipe of what leads to addiction. Maybe there are people out there saying that, but I don't know if anyone really is saying like it's all because of dopamine. It is part of the recipe in addition obviously to your genetics. The fact that drugs are out there and available and their environmental pressures and influences. All kinds of reasons that people start to take drugs or continue to take drugs. As far as the continuation, dopamine is definitely a part of it. Right. One of the ways that you learn to take drugs is not just from the fact that your brain is flooded with dopamine, which allows you to make that connection very strongly, but the brain actually changes in response to those increased floods of dopamine because it's not set up to release dopamine like that repeatedly over long periods of time. It can do it once in a while, but you can't really do it too often because then the brain responds by shutting down dopamine receptors. The problem is that this means that you have to do more drugs to get that sensation as far as you know and that's what creates the cycle of addiction. That to me smells vaguely of being almost out of date. Yeah. I know what you're talking about. But it does make sense then that the ideal drug would trigger a maximum release of fuel good chemicals, but a minimum release of dopamine. If anybody could ever come up with a drug like that, people would be able to do drugs all the time and they'd never get addicted. Sure. But you know, they have other negative effects on the body. Sure. You get about that. Yeah. The other bad thing obviously, if you're going to do the amount of drugs, it takes to shut down your dopamine receptors because your body's like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, this isn't right. Let me shut this down." It's not just shutting down the dopamine receptor that makes you want to do more cocaine or whatever. It's just shutting your dopamine receptors down. So you mentioned it earlier, anodonia, that's the idea that you don't receive pleasure from any activity. If all of a sudden your dopamine has been shut down because you've been doing drugs that you're not getting any kind of pleasant fuel good stimulation from life, then that could be another reason that you up your desire to do drugs. Yeah. Then there's one other factor involved that with fewer dopamine receptor sites, remember you said that one of those dopamine-ergic pathways is related to executive function, like impulse control, responsibility, that kind of stuff. Well with lower levels of dopamine, the theory goes that you are more likely to engage in reckless behavior to get drugs. You might do things that you normally wouldn't do not because you're just this addict who has to have it, but partially also because you don't have the impulse control that you did before you became addicted to drugs in your dopamine receptor started shutting down. Yeah, and I think that's, I mean we talked about it in the addiction app. It's not just the effect that the drug has on your body, the negative effects that it physiologically has on your body, but the behaviors that you start engaging in when you're under the influence of drugs and want more drugs and maybe can't find the drugs, that's maybe almost worse than the physiological ramifications. Oh yeah, for sure. It also ties in with risk-taking because dopamine is connected to risk-taking, and in fact they found that some people seem to be biologically, physiologically predisposed to risk-taking based on their dopamine levels, and in fact they find that they have fewer what are called auto receptors. Apparently, over time we've evolved to create on dopamine neural cells, a site called that auto receptor that actually catches some of the dopamine, it helps regulate it, like it never makes it out. So it keeps the amount of dopamine down to a regulated level. So the fewer auto receptors you have, if you're still pumping out dopamine, you get a much greater impact from that dopamine, and they have correlated that to risk-taking. So if fewer dopamine-ergic auto receptors take more risks, at least according to some studies. Yeah, and they've also done studies where they found that that risk should, or needs to be tied to, or reward like a gain basically. There was a study from the University of College in London in 2015 that said subjects whose dopamine levels was higher, it was boosted artificially with medication, would choose risky options more often, if it involved a potential gain. They didn't see that same thing going on if there was a potential loss involved. So there's definitely a tie to a gain or another way of saying that would be a reward. Yes. And then also that impulse control is also a huge hallmark of ADHD symptoms. And so ADHD is very commonly associated with some sort of dopamine deficiency. And from what I've seen there isn't a, like an across the board, we haven't discovered some across the board type of brain that's like, yep, if you have this brain, you have ADHD and vice versa. And we're not even certain exactly what effect the dopamine is having. We're almost just kind of like seeing effects that are the behavior of people with ADHD and saying, hey, we know that dopamine does that. Or if you don't have dopamine, you're more likely to do this. So there's this correlation. It's just not, it's never been like completely shown yet. I think it probably will be at some time. But we don't really know how ADHD is linked to dopamine. But there's almost certain that dopamine drives at least some of the ADHD symptoms. It's just because of that people have made leaps in understanding like there's a, there's a long-standing myth about people with ADHD that they do these impulsive behaviors to get a hit of dopamine. Well, that's based on that old idea that dopamine is a pleasure producing chemical or reward producing chemical. Instead, it might be that people do these behaviors that are impulsive because they don't have the dopamine that can regulate their impulses. So they have less impulse control. It's just still sorting it out, I guess. Yeah. All right. Should we take our final break here? Yeah. All right. We'll take a break and we'll talk about, oh boy, it's going to be so much fun. Social media right after this. I'm Clayton Nackered and in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. But what happened to Clayton after the show? Made even bigger headlines. The media is here. The dating contract. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. This season, an epic battle of he said she said. and the search for accountability in a sea of lies. "I have done nothing to get hurted by the f***ing bachelor!" Listen to Love Trap down the iHeart radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You know Roldahl, the writer who thought up Willy Wonka, Matilda and the BFG. Was this before he wrote his stories? I must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roldahl, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary controversial life. What? I'm telling you, I think I was a spy. And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock. Before writing a hit James Bond film. Listen to The Secret World of Roldahl on the iHeart radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Chetty, host of the on-purpose podcast. My latest episode is with Hillary Duff, singer, actress and multi-platinum artist. Hillary opens up about complicated family dynamics, motherhood and releasing our first record in over 10 years. You desire in family like this picture. And that's not reality a lot of the time is for people. It's definitely a very painful part of my life. And I hope it's not forever, but it's for right now. Listen to on-purpose with Jay Chetty on the iHeart radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, so we're back and we promise talk of social media because I think everyone, it's pretty hip to the fact now that notifications and the dings and the likes and the loves and the hearts and all the things that come to various interacting with various social media platforms. He's just sound as so old dude. I know. That's great. In this case, I love being old. I don't want any of it. I'm with you. But in any case, all of that stuff combines to give you a hit of dopamine and it's specific and you like fine, that's great, whatever. But it's specifically structured and built that way and coded that way so that you will become addicted to that social media platform. And they have admitted as such in 2018. It was a big news item when they were, I don't know, it was like congressional testimony or something. Can't remember exactly, but there was a VP at Facebook who came out and was basically like, hey, this is something we did on purpose. And it was a core foundation was the really the quote that kind of stuck out with how people behave using our platform. It was a part of the core strategy to get people to come back again and again and again. Yeah, and that strategy was based on, this was a Chama Polly, who was a VP of user development at Facebook. And he said that this was based on short term dopamine driven feedback loops. And you know, this is all old news to us now. I mean, this was six years ago. Think about how much our understanding of what social media does to us. But in 2018, that was a groundbreaking admission. But it's true. And I mean, that's essentially how social media works. Like you get the app and you start to realize that if that little badge number comes up and says, hey, you got it. Like badge number comes up and says, hey, you have like two notifications. You go into it. You're going to get some sort of reward of some sort. You're going to, like you said, get a ding or a like or a heart or something like that. And that is a reward to you. And so based on the mesolimbic theory of dopamine, we get a dopamine hit. And so we learn to come back. And apparently also randomness has a lot to do with it because the is we start to be able to predict when we'll get a reward that dopamine stops being a part of that whole experience. So if it can be done randomly, we don't know when we're going to get a reward. It has a maximum effect of releasing dopamine and thus teaching us to go back to social media over and over and over again. Yeah, totally. There's also this psychiatrist named Dr Cameron SEP A H I guess sepa. Is that you say that? Sepa or sepa? Okay, one of those three. Who came out and said, all right, there's this term that I'm going to float out there. And it's called a dopamine fast. And the idea when that was floated was people heard that. And they said, oh, well, dopamine just means just it's just a catch all term basically for for any sort of addictive behavior, like reinforcement. And you can go on a dopamine fast and like, you know, put that put that social media app down for a couple of weeks. And when you come back, it's just going to like your brain's going to have a little rest from that thing. And you're going to feel amazing about how much you love it when you come back. And that's not at all what Dr Cameron was talking about or meant. No, huh. Dr. Dr. SEP A SEP A was basically saying like, like he really misused dopamine fast and even said to the New York Times, like I didn't mean it like that. Don't take it like that. I don't mean it literally. Everybody said too late. We're going to take it literally. And so there was a this this movement. I think people still do it of self denial of everything from like people stopped interacting with other people. People stopped eating foods. They found pleasurable. They stopped talking if they didn't need to anything that could conceivably give you a release of dopamine. And the whole their their premise was that if they did that, it would be like going and drying out on heroin or cocaine. So that when you come back that that first experience again with heroin or cocaine is that much more amazing because you've kind of replenished your endocannabinoids and opioids and all that stuff. Dopamine does not work like that. If you stop flooding your brain with dopamine, it doesn't replenish. It doesn't need to replenish. That's not how it works. But that's what people were doing. They just completely misinterpreted it. And it was based on faulty science and Dr. Sipa essentially using the wrong term. Yeah. I think the idea that he was talking about was, hey, put that stuff down and go do other things that you find pleasure in. Live in the world or go out in nature or kind of get a hold of your life again. So you don't feel like you're tied to the social media app for your happiness. Yeah. Our moms used to call it going to play outside for a while or summer I think is another term it used to be called. Yeah. But instead this guy called it a dopamine fast and people really took a left turn with it. So he identified six compulsive behaviors or categories that he was saying you could really you could really do a good for yourself by taking a dopamine fast or a break from emotional eating, excessive internet usage and gaming, gambling and shopping, porn and masturbation, thrill and novelty seeking, which I took to mean taking a break from thrill kill murder sprees and recreational drugs. Yeah. But he also said, you know, anything that you feel like is got to hold on your life. If you just stop and step away from it, it will have less a whole of your life. So TV would definitely be in there probably for a lot of people. Yeah. But if you step back and look at what this guy's talking about, it's the most basic thing that people have been doing for eons. And yet just by slapping dopamine fast on it became sticky and fuzzy and brain stormy or Java stormy and like super corporate and people just really got into it and started thinking like, you know, if I if I fast from dopamine when I come back, I'm going to have so much dopamine. Then I'm going to be the most motivated, focused, greatest UX PM of all time. Yeah. Thanks a lot. And that's just not how it works. Unfortunately. No. Yeah, I guess it's a weird way to end this whole thing. But that's how it ends. Huh? Yeah. I mean, that's our current understanding. Yeah. I feel like this is one way you would be able to do five years from now just to kind of revisit. What do you think? Yeah. Okay. I mean, we've never done that. That's dopamine as we understand it in 2024, everybody. That's right. If you want to know more about dopamine, go out and read about it. But be very specific and selective of who you go read. There are some popular people who know what they're talking about out there. But there's plenty that don't. So I guess if you run across somebody. who refers to dopamine as a pleasure chemical or something like that, just turn around and walk away and go find somebody else. How about that, Chuck? That sounds good. Chuck, so that sounds good, everybody. And that means it's time for Listener Mail. I'm going to call this from a conductor. We heard from quite a few conductors so far. And that's just on day one after release. So it's pretty great to know that there are people out there that know about this stuff better than we do. That's amazing. Hey guys, thank you so much for the episode about conductors. I squealed with joy when I saw it in my feet as they started my hour-long commute. I teach high school orchestra and I'm an orchestral, orchestral, excuse me, musician with a former aspirations of becoming a professional conductor. So it's fun to hear an outsider's perspective. You're wondering what exactly is on each musician's stand during a performance. I love Chuck's analogy of it being like an actor script with only their lines. And that's pretty close. But sometimes there are small annotations of what to listen for from other sections of the orchestra, particularly after a long section of inactive playing or rests to help figure out where you are in the music. That's the part, remember I just couldn't believe there'd be like nothing to cue you. And I saw other stuff where there were sometimes new merit notations and other conductors that there were long bars and things that you would pay attention to back to the email though. This is another key job of the conductor which you didn't touch on as much as they have the entire score. They often give entrance cues to specific instrumentalists or sections. Additionally, there are usually rehearsal markers that delineate the beginnings of phrases or larger sections. This not only makes rehearsing easier, but also gives greater structure and scaffolding to the player. It's similar to punctuation or paragraph structure in a novel. Experience musicians can often almost more or less feel their entrances based on their contextual knowledge of the piece and the music raising. There's an old adage, the spend your time practicing at home to learn your part. rehearsal time is spent learning everyone else's. Oh that's cool. Pretty good. The conductors of the facilitator of this process, can you hit the nail on the head, guys, the interpreter of the score. That is from Brittany. Man Chuck, we did it. Yeah, we got, I think four or five conductors all wrote in and said like we did a pretty darn good job on it, so that feels great. Tell me they said bravo. I didn't see a bravo. Sorry. Maybe we'll get one someday. Yeah. That's pretty good. Who is that from Brittany? Yeah, Brittany. Thanks a lot, Brittany. We appreciate that. And to all the conductors who wrote in, thank you to you all. If you want to be like all the conductors who wrote in like Brittany, you can send us an email too. Send it off to [email protected]. Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. You know Roldol. He thought of Willy Wonka in the BFG, but did you know he was a spy? In the new podcast, the secret world of Roldol, I'll tell you that story and much, much more. What? Was this before you wrote his stories? I must have been. I'm telling you because I was a spy. Listen to the secret world of Roldol on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. But here's the thing, Bachelor fans hated him. 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