This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Lisa, tell them about our new show. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie To Me. I'm Lexi Juanio, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa de Julio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my food days, I've lived it all. Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Detective said he had stalked her before she died. Years later, they said he remained the person they continued to focus on. This is Hunter Gilmourn, post of Hunting for Answers, a true crime podcast, shedding light on the silent epidemic of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told, and to the questions that still remain. Listen to Hunting for Answers, a true crime podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network, on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If anyone wanted to commit a murder, up here would be the greatest place in the world to hide the body. But no, no, find it. He acted friendly. He talked friendly. He sounded friendly. They won't knew that I did the scary boogie stuff, and this is maybe she'll find out where this girl is. I saw a bomb. Backhand, they're a pow! Listen to the Devil's Quarry Season 2 and the Bone Valley Feed, on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, it's Josh, and yeah, we did an episode on bras, what of it? Yeah, we're two dudes, but we're carrying on a long-standing tradition we found out, because it turns out that just about every brawl in history, and then go back pretty far, was invented by a man. And that includes the guy who filed the patent for the first modern bra. This also explains why, until very recently, brawls were profoundly uncomfortable, and usually had some sort of lace or something, and maybe we were see-through. And that's neither here nor there though, because in this episode, we cover everything there is to know about brawls, and I feel like we came out of it as better people. I'll leave it to you to decide how we did. Either way, enjoy this episode from 2020 on brawls. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio. Hey and welcome to the podcast, I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and it's just us again. It's just us. We've lost you. I'm in the studio, like I was on the last one, but it's still a ghost studio, there's no one here. Except for Tommy Chong, and the radio, or the record player, right? Sure, good. Let's just get that joke out of that. We said that we have somebody poised to scratch the needle off the record several episodes ago, and that it was Tommy Chong, whose job it was to do that now. Good call back. Thank you. Should we talk brawls? Yeah, we're talking brawls, man, which I appreciate it when we do stuff like this, episodes like this, because we have to try harder because we're men, you know? Sure. The usual. It's the only time we have to try harder in life. Sadly, it's kind of true. But we haven't shied away from topics that have very little to do with us, like courses. We did one on how courses work. Did we? We totally did a whole episode on courses. Cheese. We did one on female puberty. Yeah, foot binding. Yeah. We've done a lot of them. So this is just one in the same. Three is a lot when it comes to this kind of stuff. Yeah, no, I'm just kidding. And we did mention doing one on administration not too long ago, and we got a bunch of supportive emails saying, like, yes, guys, please, please do that. Like, there's no reason why you should. I've been menstruating for 50 years, and I still don't understand it. Please explain. Yeah, exactly. So actually, we have not gotten that email, although we wouldn't know if we had, you know? Yeah, because our email server's down. Sorry if you've been bounced, everyone. Yeah, we're working on it. Yeah. So we're talking bras, which is short for Brazil, which doesn't have a definite origin as far as we know. We think that it came about in the 20th century, early 20th century. I think it first appeared in print in 1907 or something like that. And that in French, it means one of two things. It means either arm covering, which is, I think, derived from like medieval armor, French medieval armor. Don't know. And then the other thing I saw was a child's vest, which that to me is just lovely. If that's what they're trying to say with the bra, that it's like a child's eyes vest that you wear around your, over your breasts. I love that idea. You want to know something funny? Yes. For the first 10 minutes researching this, this was put together by our pal, Dave Rous. I kept thinking, why is Rous, why does he keep talking about Brasseries? Why does he keep talking about quaint little French restaurant? That's funny. It's very close. It looks like Brazil. It does. Well, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it does. I think if that I was just a little further toward the end, we would be talking about casual French restaurants, the TGI Friday's of France. Well, that's better than my experience for the first 30 minutes. I was researching nothing but car bras. Oh, God. The Le bras, remember those? No. I remember the car. I think there was a Le bras, which was one of the big popular models at the time for like porches and stuff like that. I don't remember that at all. You know, my dad very stupidly bought a Porsche when I was in high school. Oh, no, with that food truck money. With that big, big public school teacher money, he went out and bought a Porsche and surprised my mom and the rest of the family. Oh, my God. With a sweet Porsche 911. Like a new one that no one was allowed to like breathe on. No, it wasn't new. It doesn't matter. But he very quickly went out and this is very my dad. And like the next week he had like the Porsche Isod, the Porsche glasses, the Porsche hat. And we didn't have that for very long. I think I drove it one time like around the block and he was like, and they were not fun cars to drive. They were very difficult to drive. Yeah, yeah. They're all about being in as one with the road. And if the road's not so great, then it's not not very fun. Yeah, but I will say piggybacking on this story. I've been watching the TV show Red Oaks. Have you ever seen it? I have never even heard of it. I hadn't either. It was an Amazon show that ran for three seasons about sort of like Caddy Shackie. It's a kid who works at a tennis club in the 80s. And a very, very 80s show. And the drug dealer drives this really sweet Porsche 928. Remember those? Is that the pointy one? No, it looks like a Lotus is free. Yeah, well, it's yeah, the risky business car. OK, I never saw that movie. Oh, really? Yeah. Dude, you need to see risky business. It's a great movie. I might have got a list going. It's really good. It's really good. OK. But anyway, like the 911 gets all the headlines. But that 928 was so sweet. And I was like, man, I wonder what you could get a 80s 928 for. I bet it's not that much. Oh, yeah. And it looked it up. How much? Well, there was a range. Like you can get one that's in not great a shape for like $12,000. Or up to 60 grand for a cherry low mileage one. Right. I think that's pretty much the same with all vintage cars. I was looking at Pinto station wagons. And we're at different ends of the spectrum. There's about four or five mint condition Pinto station wagons in existence that are really expensive. The rest are exactly what you would expect. That's funny. So we're talking bras today, obviously. We just wanted to get rid of anybody who might benefit from listening to this. So we talked about porches and stuff. Yeah. So the bras, the modern bra, has only been around for about 150 years. And Dave makes a really good point of the fact that this thing that's only been around for 150 years, has been one of the most complicated garments in the history of the world, I think. Yeah, not necessarily in its designer manufacturer, but in its relation to society as a whole. Totally. So you've got apparently a completely another lack of bras. But as women started to play sports a little more, it was okay for them to wear bras, I think, in the 20th century. And in fact, it was a woman who invented the sports bra, two women actually, I think in 1977. Of course. They invented what was called the jog bra from two jog straps that they put together. But what's, you know, it's kind of a funny thing.
cute little origin story. But they ended up like revolutionizing sports. Like women were allowed to play sports. I think Title IX have been passed a couple of years before this. But the fact is, you couldn't play sports because there wasn't much support out there for you. So to invent the sports bra was a tan amount to introducing women in practice into sports. It's pretty cute. Yeah. It is. And the history of the bra also incorporates fashion. It incorporates societal norms and how they changed. So did the bra, how women changed over the years and their own rights over their own comfort and their own fashion. All right. Taking that back. And it really kind of everything in between. The bra is a very complicated garment and undergarment. It is. It is very complicated. Um, what I was heartened to see those that today, apparently, in for the last several years, it's been all about comfort and realness and finding like a bra that fits. And apparently, I was very surprised to find this that that has not been the norm that, especially in America, at least bra makers have made like X number of sizes. And if your breast didn't happen to fit the bra, that was on you. There's something wrong with your body because these are the standard sizes. And this is what we're selling. And so women have for a very long time had a lot of women have had bras that just do not fit them because they just can't find them in America. And that's kind of led to this revolution in bra making and also bra sizing that has allowed for women to have much better, much more comfortable fits with bras. And I'm just glad for that. Yeah, me too. The average American woman supposedly owns six bras. Okay. There are officially, there are 20 different styles of bras that you can buy. And there's this great quote here. It's from a from a book called uplift, colon, the bra in America by Jane Farrell Beck and Colleen Gow. And this sort of really pinpoints the what you're trying to do with a bra and why it's so tough to get a great fit and one that really works for everybody. Brasseries, oh wait, Brazier's must do more than fit a multitude of bodies. They must accommodate the same body as it changes through the monthly cycle and the life cycle. They must provide for movement of the torso and arms in many directions without chafing or binding without slipping out of position. And as if that were not enough, Brazier's must retain their own structure throughout multiple wearings and laundering must not abrade and contact with clothing must remain as a rule and conspicuous beneath the outer clothing while harmonizing with a desired silhouette. And must be priced to sell to many customers. There's no wonder that hundreds of attempts have been made to design the ideal breast supporter over the past 140 years. Yeah, it says it all. It really does. It is a lot more complicated than say box or shorts. Yeah, those are easy. So there's also a lot of money to be made in it. Just I saw just the sports bra industry alone is worth like seven billion dollars a year. There's a lot of money made from bras. And so as a result, about 600 million of them remained every year. There's about 26,000 different bra patterns in existence. When you said 20 different styles, that's like racer back or demi cup that like large category of bra. As far as like different patterns and types of bras, there's tens of thousands of them. Oh, sure. And each one has a lot of different moving parts. I saw 40 different parts from straps, clasps, underwire, all that stuff. And that it takes months and months of dozens of people working together to create a new bra. It's not just like a new thing. So there's a lot of thought and time and effort and money going into bra production. And then from what I've seen, there's virtually an equal amount of time and effort and thought going into bra purchasing too. From what I'm seeing, it's like not the easiest thing in the world to buy a bra. If you want the bra to be one that is your new favorite. Yeah. Did you, uh, did you have any flashbacks of young Josh while you were researching this of like Sears catalog type of stuff? Sure. Practicing, practicing unhooking bras by wearing them myself. Or simply, you know, the 80s was a generally more naive moment in time before the internet. Like, oh, yeah, seeing a lady in a bra leaning against a tree was a pretty big deal. Yes. It really was. In 1983. Yeah. Should we, should we take a break and then dive into the history? Yeah. What's, what's, I think it's a good idea. Okay. We'll be right back with a history of the brasserie right after this. Yeah. Just keep the set. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my god, Lexi, we have a new podcast. I'm Lexi, you want to wear two best friends 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa, Julia, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not getting anymore. I'm fighting. That is wild. I learned that about you today. And I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Lie. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. Hey, what's up y'all? It's Questlove. And on the Questlove show, I've been sitting down with some really interesting people. And I've got two recent episodes you should check out. I caught up with my good friend, Jojo, to talk about her music, her career, and what she's been up to. Don't invite me to karaoke. I'm going to make it weird. Someone's going to try to sing, leave get out, or too little too late, or baby too. Oh no. And I'm going to be like, okay, cool. I also caught up with Wala267 for a conversation that covered his story, his perspective, and plenty more. I don't even call it cheat day because of life day. I'm not doing that. Don't try to be slick and just go Sunday. Go Wednesday. This is what you do. Sleep later. Make a reservation for the rest of our lady. Just chill. Listen to the music you want to listen to. Just enjoy it. It's going to be all right. Nothing's going to have you awake. Wake up Wednesday. I'm like, ah, you're going to feel better. And those are just two of the many recent episodes of the Questlove show. Listen to the Questlove show or the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Peace. Did you think you were the only one? No matter what you did, it was never good enough for your mother. Yeah. I'm Jennifer Arnees and we're talking about that and more on the Black Mother Wound podcast. We rush to accommodate other people when we have been hurt and we have not healed. Our hurt has not been healed. We're going there. On the Black Mother Wound podcast, we center the stories of Black women as we heal and unpack how the painful relationship with our mother impacts our choices, decisions, and life in every way. These are the conversations you're in a little girl has been waiting for. We're going to go deep, cry a little, or a lot. And yeah, laugh too, because baby. Listen to the Black Mother Wound podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, now we're on the road driving in your truck. Why not learn a thing or two from Josh and Chuck. It's stuff you should know. All right. Okay, so as everybody knows, there was a battle between Otto von Titling and Philippe Brzeer over who invented the braw and is the great betmiddler instructed all of us. We know who won that battle because we all, you were a Brzeer, not a titling. Was that a betmiddler bet? Is from beaches. Oh, I saw that in the 80s when it came out, not since then. I don't think I've seen this since the 80s either, but I guess they're stuck with you. They're a little part really, really stuck with me, yeah. So the real first patent for the braw was filed in 1863. Brzeer, the word, it wasn't coined till the 20th century, but that wasn't the first braw. Dave's even a photo with this research, which was pretty great of age.
Sicilian mosaic called bikini girls. And if you look up bikini girls, well, you're going to get a lot of results but if you look up Sicilian mosaic bikini girls, you will see a mosaic from about 400 to 300 BCE that shows these young athletic women wearing bikinis, clearly wearing what looks like a bra or bikini top. It's basically exactly what pro beach volleyball players wear today, like no joke. It looks exactly like it. But strapless. Right. Yeah, I think a lot of them wear strapless stuff too. And also very short shorts, like even with a butterfly cut, if you look closely, they have like a that cut on the side. I mean, like they look exactly like pro volleyball players. And this is 2400 years ago. So it seems like they were wearing what's called an epidesme or strophium, depending on whether you speak the Greek or the Latin. But it's basically like like a cloth wrapped around and then knotted in front to provide support during athletics. That's right. Boom. So medieval times come along. There were European physicians who were writing about something called breast bags. And there was a medical text from 1300 the royal surgeon in France, Henri de Monteville said some women insert two bags in their dresses, adjusted to the breasts fitting tight. And they put them into them every morning and fasten them when possible with a matching band. Not a marching band. No, that's sort of a bra built in bra. Sure. Or breast bag. So that ever again. Okay. Agreed. So that's from 1300, right? And then you would think, okay, well, the things kind of started hard and fast from that point on. And as far as history is concerned, no, like about a hundred years later, the like all bra technology was abandoned in favor of the corset. And that's what we thought for a very long time until there was a discovery in 2008, but it wasn't publicized until I think 2012 or 15 that an archaeologist from the University of Innsbruck, Beatrix Newts, I guarantee that's how our name is spelled or said. She was excavating an Austrian castle, Lingberg castle. And she found four medieval bras that were 600 to 700 years old, made of linen. Do you remember when this like this was news? This made the rounds? I do. When you looked at this this garment, you're like, that is a bra. Like it doesn't matter what context you have. It doesn't matter. You just show somebody a picture of this without any prep or anything like that and say, what is this? They would say, well, that's a bra. You'd say, that's right. It's a 700 year old bra that we did know existed. Like that whole design, we had no idea that it existed because we thought everything had gone basically from, I'm sorry to say this one more time, breastbags to corsets and that there was no transition. But in fact, there was a transition to the modern bra that was abandoned in favor of the corset quite unfortunately, really. Yeah. And there was even that they even found a picture there of a 13-year-old boy with a bra on his head saying he was Mickey Mouse. That's right. So that was proof. So we covered the corset, like you said in our full length episode, so you can go listen to that. But very briefly, corset, the word means corpus and Latin for body. And women would wear these corsets that were, they had wood or bone later on that had steel. And it would basically shape their torso, it would cinch that waist in and it would flatten their breast and they were very restrictive, they were very painful and they did actual real damage to their bodies at times. Oh yeah, like they had trouble digesting, had trouble breathing. You remember you could train your waist to stay that small. We talked a lot about this in the corset episode. But the big problem with corsets aside from all of that is that they supported the breast from the bottom up. And the thing that really differentiated bras from everything else up to that point was that they went the other way. They used the harness, the power of the shoulder to hold the breasts up from beneath. Not push them up, but hold them, suspend them. Almost like a pair of breastbags hanging down over your shoulder. There you go again. I can't help myself now. I've been told not to do something. These are the great episodes where I just sometimes like to sit back and watch you dig into a big giant hole. Turn into a 13 year old boy with a serious catalogue. So this was going on. The corsets were terrible. Women hated them. And by the mid 19th century, like you said, they said, you got these strong shoulders. Why don't we use those? Look at that. That's right. And the first modern bra patent was filed in 1863 by a guy named Lumin Chapman. And he was living at least in Camden, New Jersey. And he had this very first over the shoulder designed. And it was tightened in the back like a corset, but it was softer. It was made of stretchy fabric. And it had these cups. They were called breast puffs in the patent for the extra support and comfort, I think. That is radically better than breastbags. You said it again. So Lumin Chapman, strangely enough, his design did not take off, although he does have the first patent. But a woman named Hermony Cudole, she created something that was basically like a corset, but it was a corset cut in two. And the top half very strongly resembled a modern bra. And she called that the Libyan Etra or well-being. And her stuff still didn't quite take off. I think because she was married to the corset still, the general corset design, which made sense because at the time, up until the early 20th century, if you didn't wear a corset, you were basically advertising that you were, you had loose morals. So the corset was just it, whether you hated corsets with all of your, your might and a lot of women did, you still had to wear them just to be socially acceptable. So it would take as far as legend goes a very free spirited, very wealthy socialite named Mary Phelps Jacobs to basically say nuts to that. I'm tired of these corsets. They're, they're, those whale bones stays are protruding through this kind of sheer dress that I want to wear to this dance. Let me try something else. And she apparently instructed one of her mates because again, she was a wealthy socialite to to make what we would consider the first modern braw out of some still canker chiefs and ribbon. Yeah, she was only 19. We should point out that she moved to Paris later on and changed her name to, is it Keresa Crosby? I think so. Or Keres, I'm not sure if you pronounce that last E. I'm not sure either. But that was her final name. So Crosby had this idea when she was 19 and it was before an event that she was going to a debutante ball. And she called it the backless brazier. And people at the party loved it. I imagine women especially loved it. And she got a patent for this thing in 1914. And very unwisely sold the idea for a mere 1,500 bucks to Warner Brothers corset company. Yeah, who turned around in the next 30 years, made 10,000 times that amount from that patent. Oh, yeah. So it's about 38 grand that she was paid today for the patent and they made about $225 million in today's money off of it. But she was rich anyway, right? In bet. Yeah, she was rich anyway. And she was a super interesting person from what I saw. She basically any famous author today that was writing in the 20s. She was like real good friends with. And she herself wrote too. I think she had a publishing house called Black Sun. But she wrote for a while pornography on commission from a Oklahoma oil man who couldn't get enough of her stuff. Like, let me just run another sex of story. That was one of the many things that she she did in her life. She wrote pornography. Amazing. Yeah. So World War One turns out to be a good thing if you're a woman because steel is in short supply. The US joins the war and says, you know what, we got to have all the steel in this country go toward war munitions and battleships and stuff. And American women said, oh, great, because you know what has steel. My corset. Let's get rid of it and ditch these things for good. And elastic fabric started coming into the market. Latex came into the market. And so all of a sudden, American women could finally get rid of the corset in favor of this new adventure called the the brisier. And of course, we don't want you to be too comfortable, ladies. You might want to at least put a girdle on just to keep everything nice and cinched in. Which is basically like a Hermany Cadels to piece corset, but whatever. Patriotism freed them from that that social expectation of having to wear a corset, which is pretty great. But I saw that the steel that the corsets freed up equaled 28,000 tons enough to make two battleships in World
one. And that's awesome. That's a lot of course it's steel. Yeah. So this led to like a complete revolution in undergarments for women, right? So in the 20s, one of the first bras was basically there was a company called Boishform, which held the breasts down and back, back into the left. Wait, what was it called? Boishform, B-O-Y-S-H form. And from what I can tell, they were basically saying boyish form. Okay. That's what I was about to say. But they shortened it by removing the eye and changed it to boyish form. Like they'll never know. Right. No one will ever get this trickery. But there was because of that flapper style, it was very much slight and boyish. But then a long came a company in the late 20s called maiden form. And they named themselves maiden form to kind of contradict Boishform because one of their big things was, hey man, let's not be ashamed of these boobs and try to hide them. Let's accentuate these things. And boy, did they ever? Yeah. I mean, in the World War II and the age of the big Bucsum Hollywood bombshell era, people like Jane Russell, then in the 50s with Marilyn Monroe. And it's all this sort of male ideal at the time is what we're getting at is the bras sort of followed suit. But when these women came on the scene, that's when if you look at TV shows from back then or advertisements, you see these bras that were very pointy. And I think they even called them bullet bras or torpedo bras. And that was sort of all the rage just because the sort of, I mean Hollywood's always sort of driving fashion in that way. And it certainly did back then because Twiggy coming along in the 60s, they're very sort of slim and drudgenous look. All of a sudden in the 60s, bras were being thrown in the trash can. They're like, we don't need bras at all. Yeah. And then there was a guy, a designer who was an avant garde designer named Rudy Gernerike. And he came up with the no bra in 1964, which is basically like what you would consider a bra today. It's meant to just kind of be there and be supportive, but also kind of fading to the background, which is quite friend. Like a quiet friend. Exactly. But that's like the antithesis of the torpedo or bullet bra, which would take your eye clean out if you got too close to it. But this is, you can kind of see like we've gone from 20s where boy form was or boy form was all the rage. And to the exact opposite, to back to the 20s. And then it kind of swung back toward, you know, a large, busty, popping out kind of thing, even more than before, was because now it's not covered by a sweater, which for torpedoes, it was all about accentuating the boobs upward and to the left. And then the wonder bra kind of really helped move that along. And what was really interesting is I remember when the wonder bra came out in America. It was in the 90s. But it turns out that in the far off land of Canada, it had been invented 30 years before. It just took 30 years to get down to America and become popular. And that weird. Yeah, that is totally weird. Yeah. And Canadians are too nice to insist. Like by the way, we have a better bra up here. Right. And then now things have swung back again to where they're like, do you even need a bra? And a lot of people are like, I don't think you do. It's kind of a personal preference. Yeah. It certainly can be, but also I think there's still very much a stigma. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's true. There's just no arguing that right now. No, I mean, if you go, if you're a woman and you go wall-sing into a conference meeting at your business and you're not wearing a bra, then someone's going to say something. I guarantee you. Exactly. Yes. But I think also even if somebody didn't say something or it was okay with everybody else, from what I can tell, there's a certain psychological security blanket aspect to wearing a bra. If that's what you've been raised to do to wear a bra. Oh, for sure. And to not do that would take a real psychological shift in how you feel and how secure you feel without it. And I was reading about training bra, because I didn't feel like I was enough of a creep as it is. You're like, oh boy. But from what I was reading about training bra, even if the girl doesn't need a bra yet for any real purpose, it provides like some kind of psychological thing that they're like, okay, I'm keeping up with my peers who actually need a bra. Or I'm going to like the eighth grade dancers, probably say sixth grade dance or something. And I want to wear this dress, but it's going to look weird if I'm not wearing a bra. So I need a bra. So and I think that kind of psychology continues on well into adulthood too, so that it would be weird or feel weird to not wear a bra. If that's what you've done your whole life. Yeah. And I think it also has to do with your comfort level, with your breast size. Sure. You know, not to get too personal, but like if I had a dime for every time Emily was like, you got to go get the delivery food at the door, because I'm not wearing a bra. And you know, Emily has bigger boobs. So there, I said it. She might be more comfortable if she had smaller breasts. But I don't know. I'm going to go home and ask her though. Okay. I feel like we should sit in silence for five minutes. So you mentioned maiden form. We'll get to this later, but they were founded in 1929 by William and Ida Rosenthal, who invented or introduced at least the letter-based cup sizing system. Yeah. But we'll get to that weird bit of voodoo in a minute, because I still have no idea what's going on there. But it actually wasn't in a year from 1949 to 1963. They had a very, very successful print ad campaign called I Dream, which you can go look up online. And these ads, which were very racy at the time, of course, were women doing things topless with just their bra on. They would have on like a regular skirt that you would wear in that era, but no top, no blouse. And they were dreaming. One lady was dreaming of being a firefighter and she was fighting a fire with no shirt on. Or I dreamed I went back to school in my maiden form bra. And it's a woman in her bra at a grammar school desk. Or I dreamed I won the election in my maiden form bra. Man, that's a face palm. She's taking the stage on election night. And beyond these being and old advertisements are all funny and awful in every way. But beyond this being funny and awful, it truly is kind of gross that what they're showing are things that are dreams for these women like having a regular job and things that they may not have been allowed to do at the time. Yeah. So, but in at the time, like, yes, they were trying to sell their bras. And yes, there was like a certain amount of sex appeal to the whole campaign. But in their defense, like, this is a very like progressive liberating ag campaign. It was conceived by three women in one hand. And also, it's not like they were like, "Haha, you couldn't possibly hold public office because you're a woman." It was like, it was showing that women dream of this kind of stuff that they want to do this kind of thing. And that at least in their dreams are capable of doing this. Rather than we can't even talk about that. It's so preposterous. We couldn't even possibly create an ag campaign. So it was kind of like progressive in that sense. It's in retrospect that it's really cringy. But really what you're cringing it is not like maiden form was making fun of women for not being able to do these things. It's more an indictment of society for them being restricted from these things at the time. Yeah. This is one of these definitely where you could come at it from a lot of angles. And have opinions about it. But we should read, they had a contest in 1955 with the public about new dream ideas. And the winner from 1957 and Dave, God bless you for finding this, was, "I dreamed, I danced the hornpipe with Sinbad the Sailor." Let me know what that means. That's another thing you can approach from a bunch of different angles. I think we should approach a message break. And then we'll talk about the wacky world of broad sizing right after this. Oh my god, Lexi. I'm Lexi Iwadio, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Julio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. I'm not getting it, you're not fighting. That is wild. - If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. - We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. - We're best friends, but we don't always agree. - Because you told us how accommodating you are. - Obviously I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. - Don't lie to me. - Don't lie to me. - Don't lie to me. - Liar. - Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. - Hey, what's up y'all, it's Questlove. And on the Questlove show, I've been sitting down with some really interesting people, and I've got two recent episodes you should check out. I caught up with my good friend, Jojo, and talked about her music, her career, and what she's been up to. - Don't invite me to karaoke. I'm gonna make it weird. Someone's gonna try to sing, leave get out or too little too late, or baby too, and I'm gonna be like, "Okay, cool." - I also caught up with Wallace V67 for a conversation that covered his story, his perspective, and plenty more. - I don't even call it cheat day, 'cause a life day. I'm not doing that. Go Wednesday. This is what you do. Sleep later, make a reservation for the rest of my life. Just chill. Listen to the music you wanna listen to. Just enjoy it. It's gonna be all right. Nothing's gonna happen. We ain't gonna win a day and go, "Ah, you're gonna feel better." - And those are just two of the many recent episodes of The Quest Love Show. Listen to The Quest Love Show on the iHeartRadio app, app podcast, wherever you get your podcast. Peace. - Did you think you were the only one? Yeah. I'm Jennifer Arneese, and we're talking about that and more on The Black Mother Wound Podcast. We're going there. On The Black Mother Wound Podcast, we center the stories of black women as we heal, and unpack how the painful relationship with our mother impacts our choices, decisions, and life in every way. These are the conversations your inner little girl has been waiting for. We're gonna go deep, cry a little, or a lot, and yeah, laugh too, 'cause baby. Listen to The Black Mother Wound Podcast from The Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. - Well, now we're on the road, driving in your truck, why not learn a thing or two from Josh and Chuck? ♪ Don't you shut down ♪ - All right. All right, Chuck, so one thing that I've read is that American bras don't fit, and that there's a reason for that. Something like there's a statistic that 80% of women, American women at least, are wearing bras that don't fit, and supposedly that's kinda made up and based on anecdotal evidence, but it's been bandied about for so long that people take it as gospel. But regardless of whatever the statistic may or may not be, American bras are known for not fitting, and it's because American bra manufacturers have basically said, we've created this standard measuring scale, and it just is economically efficient for us to mass produce, you know, this size to this size, and if you happen to fall outside of that size, your SOL, and it's your fault. There's something wrong with your body for not adhering to the standard norm, body size norm. This is largely becoming a relic of the past, but it's still from what I can tell, very much present when you go bra shopping. - Yeah, and, you know, I've heard this complaint from Emily over the years and a lot of women that, yeah, it's tough to find a bra that really fits well and feels good and does everything it's supposed to do. And then that's why when you find one, you know, you order like six of them. - Yeah. - But there are these days before we get into the sizing, that is changing some now with these more bespoke companies that have a more custom made tailor to your size kind of things. And I wonder why it took that long for someone to think outside the box. And challenge a big brisier and say, hey, you're doing it wrong. I bet there's a lot of money to be made from bespoke brisiers. - Yeah, from what I understand there is. And although it's just now happening in the US, apparently it happened, I believe back in the '90s in the UK with a movement called bra fitting, one word, where it's basically like, look, two measurements is not enough to create a perfect bra. You need a bunch of different measurements under different conditions. You need to take your shirt and bra all the way off. We need to get in there. But when we're done, you're going to have a well fitting bra. And it's just now catching on in the United States. And what's surprising is that, you know, it's just now catching on, but this technique and the sizing standard that we use here in the United States, it goes back to the, I think the '20s, if not the '30s. Yeah, yeah, 1929 is when they found it made in form and introduced this cup sizing. And I'm not going to pretend to fully understand this, but I can read. Oh, you got it? - Yeah, yeah. - You go ahead though, I want to hear your tip. - No, no, no, 'cause that, when the model happened, as I'll read and then you'll do it again in your own words. (laughing) And then this episode is 15 minutes longer than it should be. - All right, you got my number. It might never happens to be 34, see. (laughing) So the cup system is what it's called. It consists of two measurements and the difference between them. So the first measurement is the overbust, which is the circumference of your chest all the way around your body across the nipples. That's your overbust measurement, right? - Okay. - Now, if you'll also measure right below the breasts all the way around your body, that's your underbust. And if you subtract those two, you're going to come up with a difference in inches or centimeters depending on where you are in the world. And you can use that as part of a handy table to say, oh, there's a three-inch difference. That means that I'm a C cup, right? - Right, that's where the lettering comes from. - Right, the difference between your underbust and your overbust generates some knowledge about the volume that your breasts are going to take up, which is your cup size. - It generates knowledge? - Yeah, exactly. - So that underbust measurement is also used and that's the number that comes before it. So if you're a 34C, that means your chest is 34 inches around at the ribcage under your breasts. And then if you're a C, that means that there's a three-inch difference, that means that you are 37 inches around your chest at the nipples. And so you'd be a 34C, and that those two measurements are supposedly like all you need to come up with a fitting bra, but apparently that's just not true. - Yeah, I mean, that all makes sense. I think the thing that confuses me is this sister sizing. - I understand that too. - Thing, so if you have a 36C and a 34C brisier, that's not the same cup size, because a 34C is the only true C. So if you wanna go up a band size, but not the cup size, you buy a 36B or a 38A. So the volume of the cup size is relative to the circumference of the band. - Yeah, I mean, it's as simple as that. I think the problem, the breakdown is that this sister sizing thing has not been widely publicized to women, and so that they think like, well, if the band is a little tight and I'm a 36C, then I need to go up to a 38C. And that's just not the case. - Yeah, and music you wanna type band in brisiers, you don't. - Well, supposedly part of that bra fitting trend that started in the UK is that suggests that a tight band is the key to a good fitting bra, that that's where most of your support comes and that most women opt for a band size, that's a little too loose. But the point is your cup volume does not go up when you go up a band size, it doesn't have to. So that means that a 34C, if you go down in band size, you would go up in cup size and your cup size would stay the same. So a 34C is the same as a 32D. And then the other way, a 34C is the same as a 36B. And once you understand the sister sizing thing, then you can actually use this two measurement standard to find a bra that actually fits better. - That's right. - And if you're wondering how this all works, it works with bra fitting models. There are women that get paid money to go in and get fit for thousands and thousands of bras and to give feedback. And this all start, well, it didn't completely start there, but in the 1970s, there was a singer named Dorothy Galligan from New York answered an ad for bra fitting model and they said, "You know what, I know this sounds sexist And we probably even though it's the 70 shouldn't be saying this in an office, but you have
perfect 34 Bs and that's the standard size which we're designing our bras on. So for almost 20 years Dorothy Galligan was the model in New York in the lingerie district that would work 10, 11, 12 hour days trying on thousands and thousands of bras and giving her feedback so they could go back to the sewing machine and redo it. Yeah because that's the other part of the problem with bras that don't necessarily fit. In addition to not making larger sizes and cup volume and smaller sizes and cup volumes like they're based around one woman's pair of breasts and her breasts became the standard for the bra industry in the 20th century so that if you have if you could create a bra that fit Dorothy Galligan correctly as the 34 B you could use that to basically grow out from either way. That's right. So that's a that's a real problem for women who have different shapes and sizes and it's really sad to me to think that they were told for decades that you know if your bra doesn't fit it's something or something's wrong with your body. You must have quit. Exactly. Well here's the thing too it's not just breast size it's that you know how how big your back is and how like the bra it holds the breast the cups do but you know it has to do with your shoulders and your back and your armpits and everything else like there's so many nuances to everybody's body men and women that I mean I think until recently they were trying to do the best they could but it was pretty narrow the options that women had. Yeah I get the impression that they were not trying to do the best that they could that they basically said when we release a new bra it comes in these sizes. Well doing the best they could for a huge industry that had to satisfy you know tens of millions of different kind of bodies like they were kind of hand strong you can't have 450 bra sizes and manufacturer on that scale. Yeah you can't mass manufacturer but I think that's what's being proven like you're saying by this new bespoke revolution in that you just you can't get that big although now you can get that big because it's a bespoke and because you can say hey download our app and take these measurements using your phone and upload it and then we'll just custom make some bras for you and I also read that Poland makes really really good fitting bras as well I read it I think it was a New York Times article about interesting and the author traveled to Poland to verify this herself and she said she didn't find the perfect bra but she came away with like four or five bras that were awfully close way closer than she'd ever had before. It's funny after all these years I still remember to not put a bra in a dryer because of the movie head big in the angry inch. I don't remember that part. No I never saw that's why I don't remember that part. It's great John Cameron Mitchell who also friend of movie crash he's a friend of Knowles he played head big and you know created the character and directed the film but there's a scene where he's screaming do not put a bra and a dryer it warps and I guess that's true because ever since then I've been like I don't know if I'm doing laundry I should not put a bra on a dryer. It does do some weird things to it although you can also put it in a laundry bag and I think that keeps it from like wrapping around stuff which makes it a lot less longer. You can put it in a dryer. Oh right yeah like when a bra like collects everything else in its wake. Exactly. Yeah. So I don't think we can not talk about Victoria's secret. Man if I had a dime for every time you said that to me or as many dumb dumb guys call it Victoria secrets. Yeah dummies. So Victoria's secret actually started out. A husband and wife founded it in the 70s in the San Francisco area because the husband had gone to like the department store to buy laundry for his wife and was treated like a a scale for it right even in San Francisco in the 70s. I guess so. All right. The department source have always been a certain way no matter where you are I think. So he said what we need to create like a laundry store that's made for men to go buy for women and that's what they created was Victoria's secret and it was semi successful and then they sold to a guy named Leslie Wexman I believe it was Wexman who had founded the limited and he turned he took it. I think he bought it for a million dollars and within two decades it was worth two billion dollars and the guy who founded it was his wife they ended up getting divorced and he he died broke and jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge sadly enough. Oh wow. But Victoria's secret dominated the the bra industry in the United States for many many decades until very recently when it was overthrown by women who said enough. Yeah. Well it's funny you know Roy Raymond said you know what we need is a store where men can go in and buy sexy lingerie for their wives and what he failed to hear was the sound of tens of millions of women across the country saying no you don't right. Well that's what that's what Leslie I think it's Wexman that's what he figured out was that this this thing was a good idea but they had missed the mark in that they were marketing toward men and they were completely isolating women because he said like these Victoria's secret stores were lit with like you know weird kind of reddish lighting and they were velvet couches and oriental rugs and he said it wasn't walked by them in the mall. He's very slowly. This was like in the in the early 70s and early 70s and early 80s. Yeah that's what I'm talking. Okay all right so he said man I would have loved to see this. He said they were they were Victorian not like a Victorian foyer. They were like a Victorian brothel basically and it was like just chasing women away. Attracting men but women buy you know underwear for themselves way more than their husbands do and so he kind of revamped that a little bit and turned it into something that women felt comfortable and actually wanted to go into. Yeah it's interesting according to that book Uplift that we mentioned earlier despite Victoria's secret in its history women have really been key to the development of bras in the United States. I think over 1200 US patents have been awarded for bras between 1863 and 1969 and half of those have been held by women and in the industry they have always held pretty important positions and been well regarded designers and managers specialists merchandising promotional product managers. It is one industry where it seems that has not been hears a product for women run entirely by men. Right and rightfully so I would say. Yeah absolutely. So there is also a very famous legend as far as bras go which is the burning of bras at a 1968 demonstration. Apparently. No it's a myth. There was a there was in fact the demonstration outside of Miss America page in Atlantic City in 1968 it was the brainchild of Carol Hannish who helped basically at this moment give birth to second wave feminism and they actually had a trash can that said freedom trash can and women threw stuff into it that they considered like shackles of the patriarchy like false eyelashes bras lingerie that kind of stuff but there was no burning that came from a reporter who suggested that they burn it as a nod to the burning of draft cards but no one actually burned this stuff but it became kind of a set in stone as true even though it really wasn't. That's right. Big fat lie. And then lastly Chuck I've got one extra thing you ready? Ready. Do you have anything else? I don't. Do you need to wear a bra? It's a longstanding question and apparently the answer is no at least as far as a study in France a 15-year study of 300 women I think they're aged 18 to 35 and this study found that women who did not wear bras developed more muscle muscle tissue in their breasts ostensibly to provide support that the bra wasn't there to provide and that by proxy if you did wear a bra your muscle or the muscles in your breasts were less prone to develop and thus you would have more likely to have breast that sag or pendular breasts than you would have if you didn't wear a bra kind of like you're making your breasts sink or swim by not wearing a bra so it's just one study but it is pretty surprising that they found basically the opposite of conventional wisdom because most people say if you don't wear a bra your breasts will get saggy and that's apparently not true interesting. And I also ran across a weird question on Google you know it has like suggested searches what happens if we squeeze breast? I don't know. I didn't even bother to look just the question itself was good enough. Oh man. You got anything else? I got nothing else. What about the bro or the man's ear? Oh yeah can't forget the bro. Well since we said bro it's time for listener mail everybody. I'm going to call this Moran Badez. Hey guys love the show thanks for all you do it's especially meaningful in these crazy times. I'm currently hanging out in northern Japan on a trip that changed
from a between-t job snowboarding sabbatical in December to, well, I guess I live here for now. So your botanist is not a bad place to be, I would imagine. So good for you. Adam, I'm sure you guys got a ton of similar emails to this, but in the Badez episode, you'd mention the type of toilet with a sink sprayer attachment nearby. In my experience, this is a super common thing in households and many lower budget hotel accommodations in the Philippines and other southeast Asian countries. It is awesome and commonly referred to as the bum gun by foreign travelers and expats. I don't know the etymology of bum gun, so I'm not sure if that term has been adopted domestically in various bum gun enthusiast countries, but like one ring or spidey's abilities, it has great power and must be wielded carefully. So bum gun wisely, my friends, that is from Adam. Thanks a lot Adam, and best of luck to you in your new home. Hang tight buddy, things will pass eventually. If you want to get in touch with us like Adam did and talk about bum guns or bras or what have you, you can email send us an email to
[email protected]. Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. We have a new podcast, it's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwanio, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my foot is I've lived it all. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Hunter Gilmourne, host of Hunting for Answers, a true crime podcast. Shedding light on the silent epidemic of missing and murdered black women and girls, bringing attention to stories that equally deserve to be told, and to the questions that still remain. Listen to Hunting for Answers, a true crime podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If anyone wanted to commit a murder, up here would be the greatest place in the world to hide the body, but no, no, find it. He acted friendly. He talked friendly. He sounded friendly. They won't knew that I did to scary boogie stuff, and this is maybe she'll find out where this girl is. I saw a bomb. Backhand her. Pow! Listen to the Devil's Quarry season two in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guaranteed Human.
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