Seeking God’s Heart – A Journey into the Prophetic

Season 2, Carry Shales with Jen of Eve Duke. Seeking God's heart, a journey into the prophetic. For a good amount of time, I refuse to accept that God's calling on my life was to be a prophet. I just remember one incident. There's been a few over the years where I've just said, "Right, that's it. I'm done." "See, O'Lay, Lord." But this one was very much, "Okay, Lord, I love you. I will never deny you, but I can't do what you ask me to do here." I got my husband, he didn't know what he was doing, but he would tell me to put all my bibles away, my note, but everything in the loft. Well, hello and welcome back to Carry Shales. I'm Catherine Grimes, I'm your host, and it is always amazing to connect with you via Carry Shales and have you listening in to beautiful and inspirational stories of faith. This is the place, your place, where storytelling, connection and faith converge, and we are here to encourage you, to connect you, and ultimately to empower you to look for those stories that God is writing in your life and to have the boldness to share them with those around you. So today, here in the studio, I have got a beautiful lady from my local church, Genevieve Duke. Now Genevieve, do you want to be called Genevieve or Jen? Either. Okay. Well, for the sake of simplicity, we'll go with Jen. That's fine. Jen Duke has been married to her awesome husband for 21 years. In her words, she still likes him and considers him the best human on the planet. They have two children aged 18 and 16 alongside two Labrador's Cooper and Monty. They currently live in the southeast of the UK and professionally Jen works as an office assistant. Jen has long been passionate about empowering and encouraging women. So Jen, I know that one extra facet of your previous career has been coming alongside women to help them feel fantastic in what they were and building a real sense of their colours and their life. So I think before we kick into your stories, can you give us any style tips for finding out what colours will suit each of us best? Yes, and this one's quite an easy one because we all have veins in our wrists. So if you were to look down on your wrists now, you would probably see maybe a blue veins or green veins. And if you have sort of greener veins, that tends to suggest that you are more of a warmer skin tone. So you head in for more autumn or colours. Or if you've got slightly bluer veins, then that suggests that you are more cool in your undertones. Now, I'm a bit of a mix. I've got a little bit of both. So I would consider myself neutral. So while my primary colours are very much warm, I can dip over into cool colours. But I just need to make sure that my makeup reflects that because it could wash you out. So perhaps a bolder lip when I'm wearing cooler colours would help. So neutral veins is ultimately what we would love to have because it allows us to dip into both. Yes, you still have to be a bit careful because some colours are stronger than others so they could wash you out. But ultimately, I've always said to ladies, if that colour brings you joy, just wear it. Absolutely. And as you say, just a little bit of extra lipy to complement the brighter shade. Or for that case, the paler one if you want to go that way. Exactly. But I'm all for the brights, Jen. I do hate to keep that. Yes, we need the brights, don't we? Especially at this cold time of year. So fantastic. Thank you for that little insight there. Jen, let's go right back to your roots. Tell us about your childhood, what it looked like and when did God become important to you? So I grew up in a little village not too far from here. My mum and dad were married for gazillions of years. It's a very stable childhood. We often went to a little local Anglican church for the children's service and then went home for the traditional Sunday lunch. I have a younger brother and a younger sister. My sister is absolutely my bestie. So shout out to her because I love her. And I grew up just kind of mosing along. And when I hit high school, I had a good friend Sharon who I came to face through her family. I went along to a rental Baptist church and their youth. And then I used camp. I gave my life. And I remember the moment very clearly. My bestie girl Diana was also standing next to me. So that was a very precious moment to share with her. And despite giving my life in that moment, I didn't just dive in suddenly, be all passionate, all gun hoe for Christ. It didn't happen like that. It was more moderate. And I definitely made choices and decisions that wouldn't have reflected Christ in those moments. That's really interesting. You say that, isn't it? Because I think we almost expect that when someone encounters God, there is a complete transformation and change. And you know, scripturally, spiritually within us, there is. Isn't it? Yes. The sense of saying the old is gone. The new has come. But actually bringing that from the spiritual realm into the physical can sometimes take time. So I know that you talked to me previously about having the sense of this moderately Christian lifestyle, which was a phrase that pricked up my ears because I thought that's probably something a lot of us can resonate with. The sense of saying when it comes to following Jesus, we're just dipping our toe in and taking it out again, perhaps when we feel like it. So let me ask you, Jen, from experience, do you think it is possible to follow Jesus half-heartedly to have a lukewarm faith? Absolutely. And God is really patient with us because it's our choice on what we do. He's given us this ability to make choices. And his heart is always for us to choose him. But as we're learning on this new journey and we're learning what is the better way to live, you know, sometimes those decisions are harder because the worldly stuff is sometimes it feels more attractive. We wouldn't necessarily have always had that experience of what it is to choose God's way. So yeah, definitely lukewarm. It's some. You just mosey on with not too much growth. And it's just a bit looking back, it was sad. But nothing's wasted. It's kind of my phrase at the moment because life's been tricky. I can see how even the tricky times that the Lord has used those to usually bless somebody else. Yes, that whole question of would I go through that again in order for that person to either connect with them in a special way or to bring them some godly wisdom? Most of the time it's yes. Yes. But you pulled out that phrase there, you identified that in this sense of moseying along and just kind of dipping your toe in and taking it out again, actually meant that there wasn't so much growth in God. And I think that's the key, isn't it? That you know, we say you can have a lukewarm faith. But actually it's not going to get you very far. You know, I mean, if we're going to follow God, it's got to be wholehearted, hasn't it? And you know, that's the testament of your life story as well as we'll continue to find out. So Jen, you know, it's obvious that you're a woman who wants to pursue God with her whole heart. And I love that. He's central to your life. Let's fast forward a bit. You're now in your 40s. You're really loving a sense of growing freedom in who you are. Hey, 40 is amazing. But it hasn't always been straightforward. So tell us about those years between 20s and now, can you give us a biographical snapshot of events and how God has deepened your faith through the different situations that you encountered? You said nothing is wasted. Just just give us a sense of, yeah, what occurred in those years for you? So I think those years were very much a mix of growth, healing and learning. Those are sort of the words I put over that time. In my 20s, early, very early 20s, I followed a boy to a church. We'd got together. We had a relationship. But unfortunately that relationship turned out to be very abusive and it ended a few years later, I joined a church plant and I ran the children's ministry there for a number of years. And it was a really sweet season of friendships. I'd had two children sort of into my later 20s and we were raising our children altogether as a church. It was quite small. So we really did do life together and some of those friendships are still in my life today and I'm so very grateful for them. In 2004, I met my husband Simon and again it reflects back to those early years of marriage were great. The Lord really blessed me with Simon. So let me pause you there, Jen, because I know you have some fabulous stories about Simon. Not too embarrassing, but just to spot the way God worked and bringing you together. Tell us about how that happened. So I just alluded to that relationship that didn't go so well and I had made this pact with God. Well, as we do, he just I think sits there and laughs for us a little bit of like, okay child. But I just said to God, right, the next man that I date will be my husband, but I'm not diving in. There's going to be a real reservation. I'd learn his character much more before I jumped in. And I would really pause, make absolutely sure this was right. And certainly there would be no immediate relation. that would be friendship first for a good amount of time before anything progressed any further. But in 2004, this chap Simon arrived at our church, he's South African and I discovered that he wasn't going to stay and being that he was quite good looking and I just didn't want to go there. I just thought, "Nah, if he's a nice guy too, I'm not going there because I don't want the heart broken." So I basically ignored him for the most amount of time that I could manage. I didn't invite him out to any social gatherings, I didn't integrate him into my network or anything. Poor man. Oh no, I know, boy, maybe it's. Once he got to know me, maybe that was a good thing, but I don't know. And I remember very clearly and I still have the journal page today, 22nd of April. We were at home group, I was sitting in one of the chairs in the lounge and he was sitting on the floor in front of me and I just felt the Lord said, "Yes, Simon, yes." And I knew exactly what he meant. And I just said to him, "Well, this is the Lord I said to you. You're going to have to figure this out because I'm not helping you in this one. I am not helping you." And as time progressed, Simon gave me a call every now and then and kind of friendship grew. And literally by this October of that very same year, he proposed. I'd said, "Yes." He'd write the most amazing poem about how he saw the Lord saw the. scrown up on different continents, but he'd already picked out each other for each other. And then we were married by the end of that year. So sort of within a year, eight months to be exact of hearing that he's your husband to marrying him was not my plan. And I can only attest that God did something there because there's no ways I would have dived in that quickly unless I'd known God. And I remember very, very clearly walking down the aisle thinking, "Oh, I'm not supposed to be having second thoughts here." Or like a worry. And I just remember looking at Simon and go, "No, this is the best decision I have ever made. I am so sure of it." And we're still here 21 years later. I'm sure some people didn't think that that was the thing that we were rushing and things like that. I'm sure our families were just thought we were crazy and his poor mum, I only met her properly three days before the wedding. Oh wow, yes, last minute. Yes, very last minute. But she's just one of the greatest women I know. I mean, she is wonderful. And I'm very, very blessed to have her as my mother-in-law. She's just brilliant. That's amazing. I mean, what strikes me from that gen is just how God deals with all of us. So personally and so uniquely. And you had really had your heart broken. I mean, not just broken, but as you say, you had a real sense of navigating abuse. And perhaps you didn't even realise it at that time. Coerce of controlling behaviour. So, let's pause a moment and let's just dig into some of those things that you've said, because I'm sure that listeners will resonate with that as well. The sense of having experienced relationships that haven't ended, perhaps as they would have wished, or simply have been relationships that have actually been really unhealthy, and possibly even toxic for them. So are you happy, Jen, just to tell us a little bit about what happened for you in that relationship and how you felt and how God met you in that place? So, looking back now, I think, if I spoke to my younger self, I would have been much kinder to myself. I blamed myself for years that it was my fault. Why didn't I leave? Why didn't I speak up for myself? And I just didn't. I just didn't have the confidence. And some of the language that was used in the relationship was very detrimental. It caused me to close down. I felt I couldn't speak. I couldn't do anything without sort of being judged for it, down to clothing, down to what I spoke. Even I lost a huge amount of weight, and I lost my friendship group as well. I mean, that's kind of the remit of those sort of relationship of controlling and conscience. Do you mean that you were prevented from maintaining those relationships? Yes. There was an active "No, you can't meet those individuals." There was never a "No," but he monopolized my time so much that there wasn't space for it. And he never ever wanted to meet my friendship group. There was never any interest in anything about me and my family, actually. It was all very much about him and his world. And, you know, would I have done anything differently now? I probably would now, because I'm, you know, hindsight is a wonderful thing, and I'm much more confident. But to a very naive, very unwirly 20-year-old, I just thought this guy was the bee's knees. I sound like a granny, but I really did. I fell head over heel, and I remember God clearly on many occasions telling me not to be with him. And even my dad said to me once, like, why? Why are you there? And he never used to interfere in anything. He was so chill about that sort of thing. But for him to say something, it kind of resonated, but I just thought this is it. This is the one. But the impact on you was obviously so deep in the inner secret places of your self-gender that you vowed, you know, that's it. I'm not interested in men. I'm not interested in relationships. Yeah. And so when Simon came into your life, as you say, there was this complete, well, God, it's over to you. Yeah. You know. And how amazing, hey, that God redeemed that situation. It's, you cannot compare the support and the life and the encouragement that Simon is to me. I know he is my absolute biggest cheerleader. And even though he doesn't come to church now and doesn't have an active relationship with God, in those moments, you know, since meeting him to this day, when I've had a lull, when I've had a bit of a breakdown, like, I don't want to do this anymore, he has always given me godly and wisdom about what, you know, why don't you? Just sit and listen to my shit music. Like, just sit and listen to that, you know. And, you know, even his knowledge of the Bible is really good in that I can have a conversation about what about that? Now, I know he's not that comfortable about it, but, you know, he's a really wise man. And so God has used him over the years to bring real clarity and wisdom into my life in a way that, you know, I know if I had to stuck with that relationship. I know it would never have happened. So God knew what I needed. So a life-giving relationship. Absolutely. So Jen, God does something amazing, doesn't he? In that every situation we go through, he actually gives us the gift of empathy. He enables us to come alongside others who are going through very similar situations and to offer comfort and to offer wisdom. From the experiences that you've had where, you know, this was a very damaging and healthy and coercive relationship that you were in, you know, there must have been signposts for you. Now, what would you say to women who are themselves, either in that place already, or are actually seeking to test a relationship with someone? Oh, good question. My instinct, because I want women to be safe, loved and to grow, is to get out. But I need to caveat that with, you know, God doesn't want all marriages to end. His first choice is that things are worked through. And, you know, watch out for those red flags of behaviour that is not owned, because we as humans have a choice and are accountable for our behaviour. Yes. If somebody, men or women, I don't want to just throw men under the bus here, women can be just as horrible as men. So, if there's a gentleman listening to this, then you also need to hear that you are worthy of being loved unconditionally and safely and just as Jesus loved the church. Everybody has to ask God what is right for them. And so one size certainly does not fit all. And God redeemed, let us not forget that God is a redeeming God and there have been many stories over the years that I've heard, and possibly as listeners they have heard, about people literally doing a U-turn in their character because they've allowed the Lord to work there. Yes. So our hope is always going to be redemption. Yes. But sometimes you don't have to work through that redemption in the same home, in the same relationship, maybe consider just a bit of time apart so that you can sort of evaluate, you know, am I safe? Am I happy? Am I loved? With them kind of going, "Am I loving this person as they deserve to be loved?" Let's add to that as well, Jen, because I know that this is a principle you'd absolutely agree with that. You know, ultimately we need the wisdom and the spiritual oversight of our church family, but specifically our pastor, our eldership team, whatever it is, you know, these are men and women who are trained pastorally, like counselors, of course, who are brilliant. And we can really seek their wisdom as they also wait on God for specific situations. So I hear what you're saying. I've never myself experienced an abusive relationship, so I can't talk from a place of empathy. But I do feel it's absolutely crucial that we seek the spiritual oversight, the spiritual headship that's God has placed over us in our churches. of our eldership team, of our ministers. So yes, thank you, thank you for sharing that. Jen, let's dig into another facet of your story and you've hinted at this already. The really exciting aspect of your transparent relationship with God as a daughter, but really hearing his voice clearly. And you've already said several things which I'm sure for listeners will be wow, you know, that that's amazing to have heard God so clearly at that pivotal point. For example, when Simon came into your life on the 22nd of April 2004, when you heard that voice saying yes, Simon, yes, and you knew inside that it was coming alongside that sense of no God, I don't I don't want to date anybody unless they're going to be my husband. So I mean, that's amazing isn't it to have that clarity of hearing God's voice. Can we pause a moment? Can we talk about how since first countering God in your teens, you've wanted to hear his voice and God has actually enabled you to do exactly that. So take us back Jen to when you first heard God speak, was it an audible voice? What did he say and how you've developed an ear for tuning into his voice? So the very first time I can remember that I actually shared something that God spoke to me about and when I say spoke to me, it is often a voice. It's not necessarily always like an audible type, but it is very much him talking to me like an inner voice. And I know that he doesn't speak to everybody in the same way, but that's that's how he speaks to me and how I understand him. And he was, I was at an evening service and I just felt to share the story about the guys that lowered their mate through the the roof of the house while Jesus was preaching. The paralytic. Yes, yeah. Great. So I would love mates in my life that would literally break through something to enable my healing and I have them. I actually do have them. Thank you girls. I can't remember why I shared that. I did, I remember saying something about the story, but I remember very clearly that moment. And again, that was at the beginning where things were a little bit lukewarm, but as I grew, I ended up staying at the church where I had gone to to follow this chap. And I was part of a home group there. I can't remember if it was my home group that I led or if it was another one I was part of, but there was a lady there called Claire Lou and she had a relationship with God that I just thought, yeah, why not that? Because we were sitting in the car after I'd driven our home and we were sitting in my little blue perjo for about an hour and a half just talking about God and how He moves and how He speaks. And she just said to me, you know, I just chat to Him wherever I am. It's like a conversation. And that's what I do. And I just expect He's going to talk to me. And it really, that was a real pivot moment for rather than having cut an official relationship with God. It flipped it on its head and it became more of a relational relationship with God. Much more just relaxed. Yes. And participation. You know, you're participating, but you're also expecting. Yes. And that was the key. And I remember driving home praying, Lord, I want to hear you like that. I want to talk to you like that. And so I just literally started doing it. And I started learning and I started practicing. And I used to write in my journal a very simple little little thing. It was thank you, Lord, for this. And I'd write a list of thank yous. I'd say sorry for probably a longer list of things. And then there would be please or supplication where I would put my request before God. And then I added my own thing because I didn't know if it had that originally in in this, but I always wrote what God says. And so that's when I used to just stop and wait and write down what I felt the Lord was saying. And so I would just do that all the time, all the time, all the time. I mean, I've probably got 30 notebooks in my loft of journaling and doing things like that. And then that progressed on to writing little notes for people. So I would pitch up at church with little notes for people that I felt the Lord wanted to share with them. So hi, so and so I felt the Lord say this. And I'd always put my name to the bottom as well. So there was an accountability. So if they had any questions, they could come back to me. And then it just grew from there. And then I became more confident in sharing those in front of the church. I remember one lady very clearly. I'd never met her before. And I just felt the Lord say really strongly, it's like she's not depressed. She's just really tired. And it turned out that she had four children. Life was really hectic, really busy. And she had been asking and worrying about that. But having that word, released her from that worry of she's not depressed. And I'm sure any other mom's listening, being a mom is really tiring. It's hard. I mean, I've got two children. But anything more than that, I just think you're all amazing. Yes, I'm up to you. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, that's kind of how it kept growing. I was really quite lucky in that the church I was in were very gracious with me. People, I never really heard back very often about if they hit anything, if they were right. The words that they gave to me. I never really heard back. Which was always, you know, that would have really helped. So people, if you ever receive a word from somebody, please honor the person and say thank you. Even if you think it's completely wrong, it doesn't work. Just say thank you very much. Go back to the Lord, ask the Lord about it. And then if it, and if you so feel it's right to do, go back and encourage the person who gave you that word because it encourages them. Yes. It helps their face grow that they're hearing the Lord. Yes. And if they are not right, and that's absolutely fine, you can go back. But be ever so kind and say it didn't really hit. But thank you so much for sharing that with me because then they can know that, you know, they grow. We all learn through good learns. Yes. Whether they're hard learns or good learns. They're all learns. And what you're saying is ultimately that we can edify and build one another up. Can't we? As as the church. And that if you receive a word, even if it doesn't hit, you can encourage that person. But equally, Jen, wouldn't you agree that it is really important you've already said that that person who receives a word goes away and prays and seeks God absolutely on it because all of us potentially have the capacity to write something down that we may feel is pertinent for another person. But actually, if it's, if it's not truly of God, then that's dangerous. And we need to be really careful with that as well, don't we? So Jen, we'll talk a bit more about that, I think as we continue, but I would love to ask you to explain how your journey starting with this sense of giving words and starting with this sense of just chatting to God. But more than that, just really listening to him, you know, really listening for what he says has developed. And I know you come to our church and, you know, it is clear that, you know, you are a passionate about really leaning into God. So let's talk about the prophetic, you know, it's an area that I think gives some of us a sense of, oh, I don't want to go there. But actually, the Bible is full of the prophetic. There are prophets in the Old Testament, you know, there are prophets. In the New, there is the gift of prophecy, you know, to the extent that God's enabled you to actually discern the spiritual realm and grow to be like a prophet with spiritual gifts of prophecy and words of knowledge. You know, tell us more, tell us about this journey for you. It's actually been an incredibly lonely journey. And for a good amount of time, I refused to accept that God's calling on my life was to be a prophet. And I kind of sort of just turned my shoulder away from him because I felt it was too much and I couldn't do it. And some of it's just personal confidence and having a number of people in my life silencing me just kind of, you know, especially that relationship, but there's been other adults in my life that have shut me down quite a lot. And coming back from that is, is quite hard. And you can see why I think the enemy wanted to have those things happen because then if I'm not talking, I'm not sharing the word that Lord wants to say. So you could, I could see a pattern of things happening that would, you know, just shut me down basically. And I think there's just something that the Lord has me and I just cannot deny, I cannot deny him that he is part of, it's like he's part of my DNA. And I just remember one incident, I mean, there's been a few over the years where I've just sort of said, right, that's it. I'm done. See, a la Lord. But this one was very much, okay, Lord, I love you. I'll never deny you, but I can't do what you ask me to do here. And so I got my husband, he didn't know what he was doing, but he was helping me put all my bibles away, my notebook, everything in the loft. I decided that was it. And then I said to my friend Lorraine, I was telling her this and she was just, I could see her tearing up. And I just said, I'll never deny him. And if people ask me about God, like he's going to be like really well represented, I'm just not going to sort of do the calling if it as it were. When you say do the calling, do you mean speaking out when you felt they hid laid something on your heart? So ultimately that role of a prophet then. And let me pause you there, Jen. Let's just intersect this with God's Word because that is so important. And everything that we say, we want to be utterly laced in God's Word and God's truth. And even before we were talking this morning, I was praying and just asking God, what is it he wants us to really draw out? And there's three key areas in the Bible that I think are brilliant for helping us in this discussion. So I'd just love to share them now. Okay, so these passages are from one Corinthians chapter 12. And the first bit is verse 4 to 7 and it says, "There are different kinds of gifts but the same spirit. There are different kinds of service but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working but the same God works all of them in all men." Now to each one, the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. And so, first of all, I think the key thing to pick out there is that it is the same spirit. God is triune and he gives these gifts but it's all about him. He's the centre and they're given for the common good. So then let's talk as well later in the same passage it says, verse 27 to 28, "Now you are the body of Christ so again that sense of unity in that same spirit. Each one of you is a part of it, each one is distinct, each one is valued. And in the church, God has appointed first of all apostles, second, prophets, third, teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. And obviously there, the prophet is listed, so the prophet is validated as a role in God's church. And finally, Jen, just before we dive deeper into our discussion, chapter 14 also in one Corinthians says, "Everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who prophesies edifies the church. So I just want that to be our backdrop now as we talk about your experience with prophetic things. And yeah, what you feel based on those verses." So I think at this point it's also worth mentioning that you have prophets that do exactly that edify and build up a church, but also at the very beginning of Corinthians it says about your prophets, your apostles, your teachers, and preachers. And that verse, it's referring to the office of a prophet, which has a slightly different responsibility, which we can unpack another day because it's fascinating. But yes, the role is to hear God's voice. It's to speak that God's heart to people and encourage people at the end of the day, it's all about pointing people back to Jesus. Yes. Because if you are looking at a person for that, if you think you're going to come up to me and say, "Oh, Jen's got this, this is the Amasas Jen, I'm going to say to you, no, you have to go back to God and ask God for yourself, because I'm not responsible for your journey, you are." And God has given me a role perhaps in that, for a very minute millisecond of that, to point you back to Jesus, but it's your responsibility to do your journey. I said a bit earlier that this journey had been quite a learning one. And I have had to learn essentially by myself and dig my own wells. I wasn't afforded a mentor. I asked God for years for a mentor, a prophetic mentor. I haven't been surrounded by lots of other prophets regularly. And so it's been a very interesting journey of learning with the Lord, and having to rely on Him the whole time really, because I didn't always have someone human to refer back to and to guide. And so it's given me a confidence in the Lord that I wouldn't have had if I'd always had someone to go to to always bounce things off. He has been providing odd individuals along the journey that have been amazingly encouraging, who have confirmed some of the things I've seen in the Spirit that I'm not going nuts and those are actual things. So he's always brought a confirmation along the way. For every next step he's taken me to, he's always brought something along the world along that has confirmed that, well done, Charles, you're on the right journey. And I think one of the most pivotal moments, where it's switched from seeing sort of just pictures, which are not just pictures, they're wonderful tools that the Lord gives us to explain things to us, to actually seeing in more real time of what's happening in the spiritual realm, was that choice of, oh no, Charles, I can show you all this, but be aware that you'll see things that aren't necessarily just angelic and not just pictures. You might see some demonic activity as well. And I held back from that for quite a while. I didn't know if I wanted that responsibility, I didn't know if I could carry that. All the normal human reactions we have to, you know, things that we don't know about. But eventually I kind of saw it as a door and I literally walked through that door. And it has, it's really helped bring understanding to what's happening around me, what I can pray into, what's happening in an area, what's happening over people. But also to rest assured people who know me day to day, I don't look at everybody and go like, "Oh, this is happening, oh, that is happening." It doesn't always work like that. It's usually when God wants to bring something forward, to bring freedom or release or expose something sometimes, rarely, but that's very rare. It's usually into encourage people come along, sign them and be a cheerleader for them. Yes, because we said, you know, it's about edifying strength and comforting, isn't it? But I love what you said, Jen, about the prophetic being hearing God's heart and speaking it out. That's beautiful and that always brings us back to God, doesn't it? Because, you know, let's talk briefly then about the counterfeit of prophecy as false prophecy. You know, this is a reality and you've talked about the spiritual realm and, you know, the Bible is very clear that there is the demonic world led by Satan as well as obviously the angelic world led by Jesus. And yet, we know every time that Jesus wins. He's won already on the cross and he wins at the end. So, the devil's time is limited and that's really important to say that. But the Bible does make it also clear that Satan is always seeking to produce counterfeits of God because his mission is to deceive, isn't it, to get people deceived. You know, there's an occasion isn't there? Two Corinthians 11 verse 4, he's described as masquerading as an angel of light. And, you know, his agenda is to steal, kill and destroy in John 10, 10. And yet, he presents himself as an angel of light. So, Jen, how can we discern if something is ultimately of God or is coming from another source? I think one of the key things that we have to do is learn Father's voice because the more time you spend with him, the more clear and easier it is to hear his tone, you understand his language. He'll speak in different language to everybody. So, he speaks, he doesn't speak formally to me. He speaks quite relaxed and, you know, sometimes we have a bit of a joke and a laugh. But, you know, there's also a tone of his voice where I'm thinking, oh, I need to do something about this. And that usually is because there's some character issue he wants to work on me. But he's also, because he's God, he's gracious in that as well. So, I'm learning and continually learning. This is never a done deal, guys. We're on a long journey of learning. But I'm learning his character. I'm learning his tone of voice. And so, that's number one is learning and spending time with the Lord and learning his voice because then you know it. It's like a mother speaking to a baby, like they've got these, if you're speaking to your baby in uterus and perhaps the Father speaks as well, like the baby learns the voices of the parents. So, that's, it's a similar experience. So, yeah, spending time with the Lord is absolutely pivotal and key. But also the word. The word is literally your handbook. So, anything that you think the Lord is saying to you, if it doesn't align with Scripture and doesn't align with God's values, then it's not from God. And, you know, if you, if you think you can twist the word, you can't because the Lord will always expose that. You can't, he'll expose it. And you can see the evidence of good words by the fruit that they bring. If there's no fruit, then it was, it wasn't a word from brought from somebody perhaps that, you know, is a, actually a prophet. Yeah. So, it's, it's discernment and discernment, ask for discernment, ask for discernment, ask the Lord for it all the time because, you know, everything is, the devil is Mr. Sneaky Sneaky. And he is so clever at making good things seem like a bad idea. He's really sneaky at kind of just taking us off one degree. And you know that whole thing, if a sailboat is off by one degree, when they get to their destination, they're not where they wanted to be in the, in the start. So, the main key is it does it line up with Scripture. That is your handbook for life. And in there, we learn God's values, we learn God's truth. And so, that's your plumb line to test the word as well. So, that's fantastic that you've said that, Jen, because I wholeheartedly agree with you that sense of really first, getting to know the father's voice by spending time with him. And most importantly, doing that in tandem with his word. The two cannot come independently. Can they? They are absolutely together. But let's talk a little bit more as well-gene about testing words. So you talked previously about how many years ago when you was sort of starting out on this journey, you did feel a sense of God speaking and you wanted to encourage, you wanted to come alongside others and you gave them words. But again, how can we test whether a word is truly from God? What would you recommend on that front? We said earlier that once you've been given a word by somebody, it's then your responsibility to go back to God. So test all aspects of that word. And as you discern and learn Father's voice, you will learn his response to those questions. But also, we've said again, it's got a line up with Scripture. It has to. It has to line up to God's values. It may confirm things that you've already felt the Lord nudging you on. Yes. It may not. If it brings confusion, perhaps it's not, is the timing for now or is it for a future thing or does it confirm something from the past? I mean, even things that confirm something from the past can actually help guide our steps for the future. Because I've had things confirming from the past where Thunny thought, "I think the Lord says this." And I thought, "No, no, no." And then even years later, recently actually last year, things I felt the Lord would want to do in this place and that place, I thought, "I'm not sure if that's how he would work." But I heard a confirmation in someone's preach that the Lord works like this, this, and this. And I was like, "I've really thought of that. I already know that about the Lord." But I wasn't confident enough at the time back then to either speak it out or acknowledge that I did hear correctly. So with hindsight, you saw that in actual fact that word was, yeah. Yeah. And it confirmed that I was hearing the Lord. And for much longer than I've perhaps realised. So he put some good foundations in me many years ago that I'm just like, "Oh, I knew it, you know that." Which is wonderful because, yeah, it just shows that I'm on the right track now, I guess. Definitely, yes. And I mean, let's wrap this up by saying again, we are so fortunate as believers that we have church family. And not only do we have church family, but we have church leadership. And that is biblical that God has ordained church leaders and that they are held actually to higher levels of testing in that sense. They are accountable to God for their actions. So I want to say to all of us listening today, including myself, if anyone gives you a word, if there's any sense of coming across something, whether that be in the media and something you listen to in a podcast, test the things we've said today. Please do, don't take this as absolute road to test it with Scripture. But you can seek the wisdom and the experience of your pastor specifically, your leadership team and ask them to be accountable and test that with you too. So I would advise that if there is a sense of uncertainty at any word, anyone's been given, do go and speak to another person in the church, who you respect, who has known the Lord for that little bit longer than you and pray together for wisdom on that. So Jen, it's been amazing to hear your heart, to hear some of your journey and your story. Is there anything further that you would like to say to listeners just to encourage them in their pursuit of Jesus? You know, at the very centre of this is our relationship with God. And if at the end of time we have loved God well, that's the key journey. The rest are bonuses. You know, a lot of things come from the overflow of our love for God and that's wonderful. But getting into that intimate relationship with God, that's where the goal is. That really is where the goal is. That's where the safe place is. So before you do anything else, seek God first, seek God first on everything. And even down to the mundane of what colour nail varnish, if that starts your relationship with God and that conversation with God, go for it. Because it is a really wonderfully safe place to be when you're having those moments with God. Those are the places that, you know, he reveals his heart to you. I'm getting a little bit emotional because I wish I had sort of had someone say that to me 20 years ago that if all you do is love God, well done. And just seek his heart because it's such a special thing when he shares and opens up his feelings about things to be trusted with that is really special. And I would encourage anybody if you think you're prophetic, try it out, try it. The goodness sake, take that step of faith. You know, you set out and you give someone a word. You say, "Hey, I'm just learning. I'm really new to this. I'm just learning." This is what I think the Lord has said. Let me know if it's any good. And you'll be so surprised by the results as you grow. And to do so with real humility and real grace, that's the key, isn't it, Jen? Because yes, you know, it's not about us. It's about God. We're pointing to him. That is what Cari Shels is all about. We're wanting to point ourselves to Jesus and what he's doing in our lives. So thank you so much for sharing with us today, being so vulnerable, sharing from your heart. And yeah, I would love if we could just finish today by praying for the things that we've raised. So, you know, we've talked about being truly whole-hearted in our pursuit of Jesus. We've talked about deepening our sense of hearing and discerning, whether it is from God or from another source. And, you know, we've also talked about that very tender area of your heart that was broken through abusive, coercive interaction with a man many years ago. And, you know, that that may well be something that is current for other women listening in today. So, would you pray, Jen, and I'll wrap up? Yeah, Father, I pray that you would make our hearts yearn for you in a way we've never experienced before. I pray you put in our hearts, boldness, humility and love of the word. I pray you raised red flags where there needs to be red flags, and I pray that you would bring situations into the light that need to be brought into the light. I pray you would bring healing to people and freedom to people and redemption to those that need redemption. I pray that all at the end of the day, Lord, you would get all the glory in Jesus' name, Amen. Amen. And, Father, for those who may even now find themselves in a relationship that is not healthy, that is not life-giving, Father, I pray that they would recognise those red flags. But, I pray, Lord, that you would place around them support networks who can come alongside them, who can help them navigate whatever is going on. Father, I pray for transparency and honesty in their homes. And, Father, I pray that you would bring your light in where there is pain and uncertainty and darkness. God, I pray that they would be able to seek real professional help from their eldership teams and their churches, from their pastors and Lord from the wider community as well. But, Father, I pray that you would bring breakthrough and I pray that you would be so tender-hearted to all those women who resonate with the stories that Jan has shared today. Father, thank you that we are your church. We are the body of Christ. We have all been given unique and beautiful roles. And, there is not one that is more important than another. But we thank you for those who have been called to be prophets and we ask God that you would give them boldness to speak out and to do it with humility and grace in Jesus' name. Amen. In this episode, we've touched on some very tender issues like encountering abuse in relationships. If this is resonated with you, we do want to assure you that there are support networks available, like we talked about with Jen Duke today. Here, in the UK, whatever you're going through, you can call the Samaritan helpline 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Call 116-123-43. Refuge is another charity in the UK which can help you navigate your circumstances. You can call their 24 hour National Domestic Abuse Helpline on 0808-2004-7. Please do reach out to your friends, family and your church leadership. Don't stay silent. Stay safe. Thank you so much for listening in to Cari Shells today with me, your host Catherine Grimes and our beautiful guest. And a big thank you to all the women who make Cari Shells podcast possible for your generous support. You know who you are and we are eternally grateful. A big thank you goes out to David Campion of Open Sky Media for editing and producing this episode. And this is where you come in. If you have enjoyed listening to this episode, please help us by growing the Cari Shells community of women of faith. You can leave a review or a rating, pass the stories on and look for the stories in your own life as well. Thank you and look forward to talking with you next time.