Secrets Of A Mexican Mafia Assassin: 'La Eme' Hitman Confesses To DOZENS OF MURDERS (Part 2)

The more you killed for the organization, the higher standing you were at. So in that, I was in high standing. I was the designer of evil. We were talking about a guy that's a serial killer. It's gotten away with not only murders in prison, but a multitude of them on the outside. What was the count at that point? Couple dozen. Couple dozen. Easy. But now I felt compelled to do something to help undo the evil that I had perpetrated. I jumped in the car and they picked my brain as they drove across the grapevine. And he asked me, what I'd like to know is why. You're getting out. You're in good standing with your brothers. Why? He says, I'm tired of killing people. And I want to help put away the people who are doing what I used to do. Today's episode. Is part two of my interview with Ramon Mundo Mendoza, a former hit man for the Mexican mafia who committed over 25 homicides in his career for La M.A. In 1976, while sitting in the Kern County jail charged with a brutal double murder of a rival gang member in Bakersfield, California, Mundo had a religious experience and vowed to drop out of the gang. He ended up beating the murder rap, got out of jail, and then voluntarily went to work undercover for the FBI. And for the next 10 years, he infiltrated the highest echelons of the Mexican mafia and helped take down key members of the organization, including Joe Morgan, who was one of the founders of La M.A. To this day, Mundo is still part of the witness protection program and lives under an assumed identity. He's also a prolific author. You can find all of his books over on Amazon, which detail his days of gang warfare inside of America's most violent prison gang. This is truly one of the most. Fascinating people I've ever spoken with. It's Ramon Mendoza, a.k.a. Mundo, right here on The Connect with Johnny Mitchell. Well, Senor Mundo, we ended the last episode in 1975. You at that point were how old? Twenty seven or something like that? Twenty seven. Twenty six, I think. You were a high ranking. Striped member of the Mexican mafia. You committed multiple murders. You had just been arrested for a double homicide with your partner, Saylor, on a couple of rival Nuestra Familia members in Bakersfield. You did not give a fuck. You loved the life. You were fully indoctrinated. You were willing, according to your own words, to either kill yourself or kill somebody else. to either die in the electric chair or spend the rest of your life in prison, which you described as fun. Gas chamber. The gas chamber. Yeah. I mean, you were in it. Yeah. And, but while you're in county jail in Kern County, waiting on the adjudication of your case for this double homicide, you have a religious experience. Yeah. And you fall on your knees and you just kind of have this, I don't know if they call it an exorcism, but you confess to God. Right. But everything you'd done. I unloaded. You unloaded. Yep. And that was a good feeling. Clearly it was cleansing. Cathartic. That's right. That's the way I described it. I couldn't recognize or pinpoint the spiritual part of it because I didn't know what it was like to be spiritual. I just knew what it was like to be carnal and to do the things I did. And just for a little clarification, I was loyalty and standing within the Mexican mafia is determined by a lot of things. And the more you kill for the organization, the higher standing you were at. So in that, you can say that I was in high standing, but I can tell you there were about 15 guys that were of higher, that had more juice than I. Okay. These are older guys, OGs. So, but mine, my stature came in because of my performance. And, and they, so they appreciate it and they, uh, honored me because of that at that time. And like I said, there's guys alive today that probably won't admit it, but they know because I led them in a lot of, uh, things, you know, and, you know, homicides and other, uh, things, uh, that took place. So I'm, I'm in the, you're right. I'm in that, uh, that frame of mind where it's, this is something new to me. So many things are happening. I came face to face with myself, my life, where am I headed in life? And what am I going to do when I get convicted? I was thinking before the cases were dismissed, right? When I get convicted and go back to prison, it's going to be a family reunion. How do I tell my brothers in the Mexican mafia? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I am a born again Christian because this took courage that I didn't have. I didn't feel that I could face them and tell them I no longer was going to be part of them. Also knowing that the only way out of the organization is to be killed. So I'm inviting my own death. And also I'm telling my brothers, I'm no longer your brother. I just didn't know. So rather than worry about that or think about that, I said, okay, this new God that I've met, if you're for real, then you're going to handle that because I'm not going to be worried about this. And so I went on to fighting my cases. Then the dismissal of the two murders took place. Right. The people came in that Sunday. They thanked God. They praised God. They were saying things like the Lord opened the gates and created this dismissal. And I looked at them like, yeah, right. You know, because I wasn't fully buying that. I just didn't believe that God would open the doors. But I did believe that there was a reason for this. And now I wanted to undo, to make up for some of the stuff that I had done in life. So the three major reasons that people drop out of the organization are they're in trouble with their organization or they don't want to do what they want to do. Whatever time they're facing. Or number three, they have a wife or a girlfriend that's threatening to leave them. And I had none of those three things that were an issue with me. I had cut my fiance loose. I did have a fiance at the time. I had no problem doing time. I could do it standing on my head. And I was in high standing as high. I was the poster boy at that time for the Mexican mafia based on my performance and everything. So I was. I was ready to get out there and do all these things. But now that I had this experience with remorse and accepting, receiving forgiveness, I want to change the way I proceed in life. And yes, I could have walked away. Yes, I could have left everything alone and just rode off into the sunset, as they say. But now I felt compelled. I felt compelled to do something to help undo the evil that I had perpetrated. I was I was the designer of evil. I wasn't just somebody that did it. I designed it. I put it together. In case you missed the first episode, you described murdering people and then going to a Dodger game with your buddy. And you guys are laughing about it over hot dogs. Oh, yeah. Like it was it was more than just I killed a guy. And a fight with a machete, which also happened. It was a completely acceptable, normal. You were like Joe Pesci in Goodfellas. Yeah. Like like talking about the weather. Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. It was an addiction. Yeah. And it's hard sometimes for to explain a mindset to people who don't know. They think you're boasting or they think you're exaggerating, whatever the case is. But everybody out there that's either lived a life and pulled away. From that extreme life. And any active member that's watching this program know exactly what I'm talking about. Exactly. Because you're evil that you're living right now. You you have no compunction, no problem carrying out the work that you have to do, which is killing people. You know, that's part of what you do. And it's no problem. It's like picking your tooth with a toothpick. So now I'm. I'm thinking, oh, what can I do? So I called my mother and I said, Mom, I'm going to be getting out in March, early March of 77. And what I'd like you to do, I'd like you to call my parole officer, Mr. Rubio, and let him know that I want to talk to somebody from the SSU. SSU is a special services unit that investigates gang members and dirty officers and stuff like that. Investigative branch of the Department of Corrections. So she. She asked me, well, what's SSU, mijo? I said, Mom, please don't. Don't worry about it. Don't ask questions. Just please ask Mr. Rubio and then he'll know what I'm talking about. So next thing I do, I get a visit. the Kern County Jail from a DEA agent, Gilbert Avila, they called him Chili, and Rick Minjades from the SSU. And by their body language, I can see that they are understandably wary of my intentions. And Chili, that's Gil Avila, was the main guy talking. And he asked me, Mundo, what I'd like to know is why. You're getting out, you're in good standing with your brothers. You got cases that you know what I'm talking about, that we never could file on you. Why? Is the big question. Why do I want to help them? And I told him, well, I want to, I'm tired of killing people, which was true. I didn't tell him I became a Christian. I thought, that's showing weakness. These guys are tough guys too in their own right. I don't want to show weakness. And they're not going to understand. And you could see, he's still like, yeah, all right. He's up to something. So when all was said and done, he left me his business card. And he said, when you get out, give me a call and we'll take it from there. So on the day that I get out, which is not too long after that little meeting there, I'm walking out the jail, I had dress clothes on, and I had a box with my personal effects, a small box. And as I'm walking, I was going to take the Greyhound bus and go back or go to LA. And then somebody from the family would pick me up. Well, a car pulls up near me and a voice that I recognized to be Chili's voice, Gilbert Avila, the DEA agent. He says, Mundo, don't look at us. We're going to drive across the railroad tracks behind the bail bonds building and we'll meet you there. And the reason they did it that way, because there's trustees that work around the jail and trustees are very good conduits for the bad guys. So I understood and I walked, I crossed the tracks, I went behind the bail bonds building and Rick, the tall guy, had the door open and I jumped in the car and they picked my brain as they drove across the grapevine towards East LA, asking me a lot of questions. And so they, you know, until I started giving them people or whatever, you know, they're going to be a little wary of me and I don't blame them. I mean, I'm, you're talking, you're talking about a guy that's, a serial killer that's gotten away with not only murders in prison, but a multitude of them on the outside on, you know, for, for my organization. And, and, uh, what was the count at that point? Couple dozen, you know, total. Wow. Yeah. Couple dozen. Couple dozen. Wow. Easy. Yeah. And, uh, they, uh, we get to the house and, okay, let me know. Let me know when you got something. So I get a phone call. I'm getting phone calls from some of the fugitives. Joe Morgan calls me from Oregon. Uh, he's on the run at that time for, uh, possession for sale and nothing, nothing, nothing big, not even that just possession. Uh, Alfie is in Tijuana and he's wanted for a couple homicides. Remember in 75, that's the monster that I supposedly created. Uh, when, uh, well, I haven't told you that. From kickoff to the final whistle trade, the biggest moments in football with Kalshi America's number one prediction market platform. Next Monday, Chicago takes on defending champion Seattle. Chicago is currently trading at 58% to win a hundred dollar trade pays out $164. If they come out on top, download Kalshi use code win 26 to get $25. When you trade $25 KALSHI Kalshi trade. Next 18 plus restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Kalshi products are not available in all jurisdictions, prices, values, and available markets may differ from those mentioned for more information. See Kalshi.com slash regulatory. Well, Alfie's a guy that used to work for you. Alfie is a Mexican mafia member who sailor and I in 75, when we were doing several hits, uh, Alfie was our driver. That's right. That's right. So when he was driving for us, I didn't think it was a big deal. Sailor and I would take care of our business. Alfie was a good driver. So one day we did a couple of guys and we're, uh, we, we run into the car sailors in the back seat. I'm in the passenger seat and Alfie sitting with his looking at the steering wheel with his arms folded. And, and I'm telling him, uh, let's go. And he's telling, he's telling me he's not going anywhere until I give him my word that next time he is the pistolero and not the driver. So my initial reaction would have been, or was, I felt like plugging him. And, but I could hear in the distance, the sirens of approaching cops. Somebody had dialed 9-1-1. They heard the gunshots. I'm sure. I looked at sailor and with a, with a weird look in my face, like this mother and, uh, and sailor looks, gives me a look like, tell him what he wants to hear. I said, okay, next time you're the pistolero. Now let's get out of here. That's what I'm talking about. He says, and he says, he's happy. He engages the car and we get out of there. So after that, he did become, he volunteered for, I don't know how many hits I could break them down, but I, I won't waste your time. He was your protege. Yeah. And, and, and, uh, although I, I include sailor in that, but I'm sure that's what happened there. But anyway, so now he calls me also from Tijuana and congratulating me for beating the beef. And I said, Hey, sailor's out too. He said, Oh, I said, can he, he invites me to go to Tijuana to visit him. And I asked him, do you mind if I bring sailor with me? He says, no, of course not. So, you know, we're both invited. Now, let me stop you there. Does sailor at this point know about your revelation, your, your newborn Christianity and your decision to go undercover? Nobody knows. Okay. Except my family. Gotcha. Okay. And the reason being, and the fellows can't know, but, but, uh, I mean, unless I was going back to prison, which the way everything happened now that I'm going to work undercover, I'm surely not going to tell anybody about this. Right. So, but here's what happened. When I become a Christian, it's sometime in 76 in the County jail. When we beat the case, it's in January of 77. Sailor gets released before me. He gets discharged from parole and gets out in, I think, late January. Okay. Then I get out in March. My discharge came up in March, parole discharge. Between that time, he gets arrested in February in a big sweep. LAPD Parker center, also known as the glass house. Uh, he rolls. See, I had already talked to Gil, the Chilean. I had already agreed to talk to them before sailor did now sailor unbeknownst to me, he turns in the glass house. Right. So the day I got out in March of 77, I, I call his house and his wife tells me, uh, he's getting out of jail. Uh, we're bailing him out. They, they picked him up. And I, I already knew he had been picked up. Cause I, I read it in the paper. So, so sailor calls while I'm there and she's whispering on the phone in the kitchen. I don't know why she whispers, but now looking back, it's because he had turned. And, and then she tells me, uh, Mundo, uh, Eddie to you, sailor. So I get on the phone and he asked me to pick him up, you know, from Parker Center because he got bailed out. I said, sure. So I drove down there not knowing that he's working with the task force as well. And I pick him up. I take him to our neighborhood so he can get his fix because he uses his heroin and he's a little sick. So we had, you know, dope dealers all over and in the neighborhood, of course, he just went to one of the guys there and got his fix. And then I took him home. Well, anyway, now we fast forward a little bit here, not too much later. I get on the phone and called Chili from DEA and said, I just got a call from Alfie in Tijuana and I'm going to go down to visit him and I'm taking sailor with me. And he says, okay, well, little did I know that sailor was on the horn calling them and telling them the same thing. The same cop, Chili. Yes. Wow. I don't know this. Wild. Okay. So you've both. Both flipped and neither of you know it. Yes. And neither of us know it. Now, let me ask you this. Does sailor, is he working his time? him off? No, no, no. He, the same thing like me, he's discharged from parole. He had the two murder cases dismissed like me. Right. But in that sweep, he got arrested in that sweep. Oh, I get what you're asking. So was he, was he, okay. Maybe. Yeah, I get, I get it. That may be so. Okay. He may, they may have had him because they got him there and he decided, Hey, I'm going to work it off. So that's a good question. And I'm just being honest and fair. I mean, I didn't think about that. Okay. So we both go south of the border. We both, little did I know at the time, see Elfie is a kind of guy. He was a braggart. He loved to brag about everything he did. Now, when you're, when you got fellow members, you should be able to confide in a fellow brother about any criminal activity. But as a general rule, I think most guys do not go into detail about the homicides that they commit. Just as just a general rule, because you're thinking, what if there's a recorder or what if there's a bug or whatever? So you just don't talk about it. Right. It's there's no need to know it's over. It's over. Okay. But Elfie loved to brag. He loved to boast. He loved, you know, the, the, the, the limelight, the spotlight, the attention. And so when we went down to his house and, you know, we're drinking a little, a few brewskis, I didn't, I did not have to ask him about any of the homicides that he participated in. I did not know that if I had asked him without advising him of his rights, you get it? Because I was a so-called agent working with a task force that, anything he told me would have been inadmissible. You see? And, but he volunteered. He, you know, in the, in the, in the alcohol talking about stuff, he started talking about, uh, cuate and, and, and, and giving details and the whole thing and laughing this and that. And so he pretty much laid out all these different homicides. Okay. That's for a later thing. In the meantime, they, the, the, the task force, all they wanted was his body. They wanted him. So when we come back, Sater and I across the border, we only stayed like most of the day that one day and just we're driving back. Now we hit the border. The, the border guy walks up and asks for citizenship. Uh, and he's smiling real friendly. All of a sudden his whole demeanor changes like a buzzer went off, like a, some kind of alarm. And he changed his whole thing. And he says, okay, can you slowly drive your car to the right? And these gentlemen, a bunch of guys in suits came out. These gentlemen will escort you to secondary, whatever they call it, you know, where they, they check the secondary search. Yeah. Uh, and this and that. Okay. So, you know, so I figured, no, it's probably the task force. Right. And, uh, so we pulled off to the side, uh, the guy, the suits escort us into, uh, uh, a foyer, uh, reception, center. We're sitting there. Then, uh, they call sailor first. He disappears somewhere, comes right back in about five minutes, sits down next to me. I said, so what happened? He said, ah, they want to know where Alfie's at. And what'd you tell him? I told him to get fucked. I said, cool. So then they call me when I go back and I go into the room, there's chilly, chilly. And some of the task force guys, he says, okay, real fast. We don't want sailor to get suspicious of you. He says, uh, uh, just give us directions to the house. So I gave him directions, you know, take the toll road, you get off on this street and make a right at the pharmacy, blah, blah, whatever. So I gave him directions to the residence and, uh, came back, sat down next to sailor. He says, what'd they ask you? So the same thing. They're looking for Alfie. What'd you tell him? Same thing. Told him to get fucked. So we're both lying. Right. And, uh, so he's, uh, he disappears a few days later. He's in the wind. And I find out from chilly, he reveals to me that sailor, uh, was working with them and that he was that the U S marshals had already take a minute into their custody. I was happy. You know, I was happy because he was like my brother, you know, I was so happy. I said, man, that's great. I'm happy to hear that. So that's what happened there. He, okay. So what is the objective now? Because you're not, you don't, oh, the government, any time you beat your murders, they have no evidence. They can't put any cases from, you know, previous homicides you were implicated in. They can't pin you with anything. You're free. You voluntarily are working with them. What is the objective moving forward? The objective is, I think I mentioned earlier was I wanted to undo. I thought that this was something I could not so much undo, but give back, uh, the analogy that I'm, that I'm going to give you. I think I told you off camera. It's like a bar of soap and I'm washing my body. I'm washing the filth off my body. And so by giving up these guys that represent unknown, unknown number of murders. Okay. That that's one of the things that I'm contributing for all the bad that I had done. So in effect, I'm, I'm washing the filth off my body. But what does that mean? Just getting as many of these guys as you can? Getting as many as I can behind bars, every, every Mexican mafia member represents an unknown number of dead bodies in the course of their, their lives. So I figured if I can help in that regard, that somehow atoned for that. That's what I did. Not realizing that the blood of Christ has already washed away those sins. He's already forgiven me. And again, I'm not thinking that way. Cause I'm a brand new Christian. I don't even understand what it is to be a Christian. I'm working undercover. So what do I end up doing? I end up selling dope. I end up having cocaine and heroin in my apartment, started snorting cocaine. Okay. Getting high on your own supply, so to speak. All of those things, I did not have the approval. I remember talking to Chili one day and I said, listen, I can't walk around asking people who's killing who, anything like that. Because unless I'm involved in the killing, after a while, it's like, well, why are you asking all these questions? So, but I can get involved in the dope of the thing. And then I will get information just because they trust me. And, and, uh, Chili said, still remember his words like yesterday. Listen to me carefully, Mundo. I cannot give you a license to commit a crime, any crime. So, uh, whatever you're doing as an undercover operative, uh, I, I can't, you know, he can't, uh, justify it. Or he can't condone it. He said, but we're not going to be looking at you closely is what he told me. But the way he looked at me when he said that was kind of like, let me know, do what you got to do and don't worry about it. Wink, wink. Because they want the big fish. Of course. They want the big players. They want, you know, sometimes you've got to make a pact with the devil in order to get to the others. Well, the DEA does that all the time and forever. Of course. Yeah. So Chili knew and then everybody knew and the way they did, things was very, very, I mean, to this day, there's things that I will not talk about because I don't want to put them, uh, make them look, uh, uh, put them in a bad light. It would be embarrassing. Uh, but there were unorthodox ways of capturing fugitives, especially guys that were in the other country in Mexico, uh, that, that would have gotten off the hook. Right. You know, if they had done things legally by the book, right. Of course. So, okay. This is crazy. So you start, you get into the dope game. I mean, you already kind of are in it, right. Moving heroin before you caught the two murder cases for the double homicide, you had been opening up and establishing heroin markets throughout the barrios, uh, through force, basically working with the Tijuana cartel, you and your gunmen would go to local dope dealers, just like they do in Mexico and say, you're going to sell this for us. And if not, you would kill them. Right. So now what does that look like now that you're undercover, explain your, your dope dealing operations, who you were purchasing from and how you were integrating members of the Mexican mafia and identifying them for the government? Well, now we're in a, in a, in a different, uh, position with regard to the dope game. What's happened when I got popped in October, when I got arrested in October with sailor, robot Robert Salas took over the dope distribution. And so he began doing what I was doing as far as furnishing the drugs to the different brothers that were in the different parts of the state. And in addition to the people that we had selling dope, robots started doing it. He had already gotten arrested a few times. And then Chuy Araujo, our main guy, he already had dope people moving large quantities in East LA, Primera Flats area, and other areas. Even as far as Pittsburgh, he had other avenues of distributing dope. But he developed an informant in his family. And that's well documented back then. And so they indicted him, his brother, and other members of the Araujo family. And the Araujo family is your connect, the previous connect based in Tijuana. Yeah. Same connect based in Tijuana. And so he became a fugitive from prosecution in that indictment. But he would meet with Joe and myself. Joe was no longer a fugitive. He had already, no, he was still a fugitive. I'm wrong. He was still a fugitive at that time. And so was Chuy. And so we would meet in places, out of the way places in Newport Beach, San Pedro, where Joe's, his family was living. Talk about Joe Morgan. Joe Morgan, yeah. The famous Joe Morgan. And then he had discontinued our activity with the drugs until he flushed out his informant. And so some of the fellas started doing other things to generate revenue. Bank robberies, ripping off connections, things like that. Anything that's criminal involved. I still was an adobe game, but not at the larger level anymore because Chuy had stopped the pipeline temporarily. And we talked about it and we were fine with it. In fact, he, he wanted to pay us for killing some people that had killed one of his dealers in LA. And he gave us the names. And I, I offered to go ahead and give the names to our guys that were doing the killings. And Joe was the one that did the killings. And Joe, in, in exchange for payment. And Joe said, no, you don't have to pay us. So Joe wanted him owing us and hoping that that would accelerate getting the drugs back. Right. And so my job at this point, since I wasn't pulling triggers, was to get the word out on these targets. So before I did, I called the task force. Let them know, said, these guys are targeted to be hit. I gotta put the word out, but I'm letting you know now, so you can do whatever you gotta do, uh, preventatively. Right. Uh, they, for the most part, were not able to intercede. People would laugh at them or not believe them. And so most of the people were killed anyway. I did save Lupi, Esqueda and her sister. She was a eyewitness to, uh, the murder of Gilbert Roybal in Fresno. Um, but it was very difficult at that time. Wow. So the law, the feds didn't even act on it. Well, what can you do if, if, if the target doesn't want to believe that they're, they're targeted to be hit? Oh, I see. You see what I mean? Oh, so they came to the targets and said, hey, watch your back. You got a green light on you. You got a green light on you, whatever. What can they do? Right. You know, they can't, uh, you don't have the resources to babysit everybody that's, uh, that the word is out that's supposed to be targeted until they find out that they were, that they were killed. Yeah. They killed Pelon. That was, uh, for the, for Chuyo Rajo. They killed, uh, Pelon, um, Gonzalez. They found him dead, uh, home alone. They waited till his family was gone. They killed him. And then they told his sister, you need to, you need to make yourself scarce. You need to disappear. Because you're the next, you're the other target. Wow. And, uh, she moved to Huntington Park, which is stupid. Wasn't far enough. It's a danger zone. Yeah. Anything in LA County, anything in Southern California. So she gets whacked. Uh, so that, that's what I was doing, uh, during that period. And, uh, participating in all that. I got arrested a few times with, uh, quantities of heroin and cocaine, money. Uh. I remember the task force offered to, uh, to get me out. And I told them, uh, I can bail out. I'd rather, I'd rather that the agency that arrested me is LAPD Administrative Narcotics, Admark. Uh, they arrested me. And then the task force offered to intercede on my behalf. I says, why? I'm getting out on bail. They don't need to know. And they agreed. The least people that know, even law enforcement. The better for them, unless I had, unless I, I couldn't afford to bail out, which I could and all that. So they went ahead and, and, uh, let me go through. And the case was adjudicated, uh, later on. Um, now I did participate. Now this is where I'm telling you, I sunk. I'm a born again Christian supposedly. Right. So I'm selling dope. Dope kills people. Even if I'm working undercover. An average cop is going to say, eh, go ahead. We're, we're after the bad guys. We don't care about your religious beliefs, but I'm selling dope. That's not right. That's not good. But I was doing it. So I compromised my faith, even though I was brand new in my faith. So here's the next one. The fellas want me to organize a bank robbery. There's a group of guys. Stoney Galas from San Pedro. Willie Bobo is still alive. Uh, who's the other Gabby from Florencia 13. They want me to organize a bank robbery. I've never robbed a bank in my life. I've never robbed a legal establishment in my life. I robbed dope dealers, ripped them off because they're not going to dial 911 on you, you know? And so I'm thinking in my mind, why do they want me to do this? To organize a bank robbery. Because I organized everything else. I organized hits in prison and out of prison. So they assumed that I knew how to do this. Well, I remember Champ when he robbed his bank with an AB guy with a puppet McKinney, uh, Thousand Oaks, $39,000 bank robbery. I remember them telling me how they did it. They, they took over the bank instead of hitting the tellers. I pretended, I winged it and pretended like I knew what I was talking about. And I told them to take over the bank, blah, blah. Everything that Champ told me that they did, I kind of told them the same thing. So they, they went ahead and, uh, and, and I mean, I talked with them and I told them I cannot participate in this because I'm too hot. And, uh, and plus I'm doing other things. So, okay. They were good. So I, I, I tell the task force, you guys, they're going to do, you're going to do this. So they were going to surveil everybody, all the players, but it was Richie from Paramount. So I told them, my advice to you is don't surveil them all, because if you do, you increase the chances of getting made. The staging area is going to be Stoney's residence in San Pedro. Surveil his house and you'll see it develop from that residence. So they did sure enough on the day in question on the day of the, uh, that they were going to, uh, they knew because they could see they all had their game face on. The surveillance crew could see these guys are serious. They're up to something. Something's going to happen. So they were a shadow. They got a hold of, uh, LAPD robbery homicide, RHD unit, and, uh, let them know that these guys are, are on their way to a bank. They had a helicopter following them. They walked into the bank in Hawthorne. I can't remember if it was which bank first national bank of America. I don't remember, but it was in the city of Hawthorne. And, um, and, uh, when they walk in, when they walk out of the bank, they engaged the robbery homicide guys and the officers that were surrounding it surrounded the place. And they, uh, they actually ran into a beauty salon and then engaged them in a shootout. They killed Richie and they, they almost killed Sapo. They wounded Sapo. He was one of, he was a Sereno. Uh, Stoney and Gabby came out with their hands up and they surrendered. And, um, and it's, uh, so now they're in custody. I get arrested for, by JT and the administrative narcotics guys. I'm in the Mexican mafia tank in the, uh, LA County jail. And a couple of the fellows come up as we're, we, we only could exercise one at a time. A couple of the guys came to my cell one at a time. And each one of them told me independent of each other that Gabby was suggesting that I might be dirty because I knew about the bank robbery and I opted not to participate. OK, so so if they're telling me this, they're not rocking me to sleep. They're they're telling me they don't believe Gabby for them to be telling me this. And I so I know I asked Mo, so why are you telling me this? This is because we know he's full of shit and we know that he's trying to cover for himself. What do you mean? He told everybody before they hit the bank that if the cops come, you shoot it out with them. We hold court. That's the expression they use. And Richie remembered that and he held court and so did Soppo. Gabby threw his arms up. So he's got egg on his face for not. It's a violation for not doing what he said to do, which I think was stupid anyway. Why would you hold court if they got you? They got you right. But that's those were Gabby's words and he didn't follow through himself. So now he's got egg on his face. So he's trying to use me to clean up his ass. So I'm thinking, oh, shit. But at least I know the word is out. So I think I got to be careful. So when I bail out, I go. Joe calls me, asked me to come to his house. I go down there. I got double weapons thinking, is this a setup? Is this the end of Rico? No, that's a movie. Right. And and I'm thinking about it. I remember I parked under a light in the house where he's at. And then I'm thinking, no, no, no. Stop getting paranoid. If they're they're not going to if they're going to whack you, they're not going to whack you in front of right in front of his house. So I go in, you know, we're talking. He gives me a photo and I get a contract for our bail bonds woman, Helen Morazic. She's going to a divorce with her husband. Her husband, Bob, is a dope dealer selling heroin and he owns an upholstery shop. She does not want the 50 50. That comes from a divorce. She wants it all. So she gives Joe a contract, ten thousand dollars cash, a kilo of heroin, the small aircraft. And exoneration of a lot of bails of some of the fellas in exchange for killing him. Holy shit. He gives me a picture of him, gives me a business card, a B&M carpets. And. My job is to do what? Take him out. Go to the task force. Oh, right. I'm an undercover guy. I didn't know which side. But your job, according to Joe, is to take him out. According to that. Yeah. But according to the. And you haven't been wearing wires at this point. Are you recording everything that all of your interactions with the fellas? No. For the government? You haven't done that? None of that. None of that. And in fact, I refuse to wear a wire. I was having too much fun. Yeah. It doesn't sound like you're doing a lot. Okay. It doesn't sound like you're doing a lot of work yet. Yeah. Yeah. So. Anyway. You're slipping away from. You're slipping away now from the revelation that you had. I did everything but pull the trigger. Right. In that. In Bob Morazic murder. I did everything, but I coordinated it to the minute detail. I got a game youngster, Artie Guzman. He's still doing time since then. That was November of 77. Artie. My brother. My brother drove the getaway car, I mean, the hit car, and Artie was the trigger man. And like I said, I instructed him, gave him the.45 that Joe gave me. He walked in, identified the guy, put the gun, the.45 to his head, blew him away. When he walked out, I told him, you remember the scene in The Godfather where Michael shoots the police chief? Yeah. And they told him to, when he walks out to. Leave the gun. Yeah. Well, I didn't tell him to leave the gun, but I told him to walk out nonchalantly with his hand down and the gun down, kind of like reminiscent of the Michael scene. And I told my brother, okay, you guys, there's people from the offices looking. Don't pay attention to them. Just get nonchalant. When you get in the car, take your time. When you drive off, take your time. Don't drive fast. And then come over to me. When you get off the car and come to me, the whole thing, they get in, they get their clothes off, I mean, their tops, put them in the glove compartment. I drive off. The.405 was a couple blocks away. This happened in Signal Hill, which is next to Long Beach. And then once I'm on the freeway, we're done. We're gone. So you set this whole hit up. Yeah. And then you told the DEA and the task force? That was later. Okay. Later. Okay. So at that point, I've already went totally against everything that I should be doing, not only spiritually, but even legally. I mean, the whole thing. I've double-crossed the task force. I betrayed them. I've done everything. All this, I justified because he was a dope dealer and because they were suspicious of me. So I was saving my butt. Right. But, you know, and justifying it thusly, right? So that happened. They asked me, the task force, they asked me about it. I told them I didn't know nothing and I would find out this and that. Then my two murder cases had been appealed by the district attorney in Kern County and an appellate court overturned. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. I don't know what I was doing. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. Oh, my God. How dirty is this society? Oh, yeah. So she was connected to the fellas? Yes. The Mexican mafia? Oh, yeah. Wow. That's incredible. She was. Yeah. Lenore. Yeah. So I call up Chili and I let him know what's going on, that I got this warning from her. And he says, "Well, what are you going to do? There's nothing we can do. If they haven't rendered down, if they haven't given the reversal yet, it's not like we can arrest you or anything like that." And I said, "Well, the reason I'm calling you is because in case she is accurate, and I believe she is, but I really don't know, but if she is accurate, I'm going to disappear for a little bit because I haven't had any real vacation time or get. I've been working with you guys. I have been working a lot of different things." And I said, "I'm going to disappear and I'll call you whenever I resurface." They said, "Okay, but try to keep in touch." So I led them to believe that I had left the country, but I really didn't. And then on the day that they arrested me, I was arrested in Monterey Park and Atlantic Square and taken into custody. So now. For the homicides? For the two homicides. Okay. And Saylor, who was on the. WITSEC had already been. He had been on the Federal Witness Protection living out of state somewhere. He was remanded into custody. We both met up at the Kern County Jail, third tier, single cell status. And now we got to. Like, we picked up where we left off. Now, we got to face the charges. So now, as I'm talking to the task force and they're saying, "Well, we're. We're in an awkward position here because now we have to. You're in custody for two murder cases. We can only intercede and let them know what you did for us," if they want to take that into any kind of consideration. Right. If you're found guilty or something. Yeah. But see, the judge, the prosecutor, he doesn't care what we did for them. They got a case in their county, but they didn't have what they felt was a conviction. evictable case of first degree. So they offered second degree through the task force. Task force said, this is what they're offering. Which was? Second degree fight alive. Five years to live. Three fight alives running together. Fight alive for each murder and fight alive for the gun, the usage of a gun. So three fight alives, which for somebody that's a real bad guy, an active bad guy, you're going to do back then at least 10 years, 10, 12, 15 years, if you don't screw up. Okay. And today I'm sure you're going to do more time. So we end up pleading guilty. And then I give Chili, I said, look, I got something I got to come clean on. And I gave him the homicide that Joe- That you set up. The contract- Killing that bail bondsman. The bail bonds. Yeah. So that's- Wow. That's the one that put Joe away for life. He died- Holy shit. He died in prison. And that's like one of the reasons I'm sure the fellas, like I say, for me, it's open season. So I'm not going to make it easy. So that is the murder that the most famous Mexican mafia leader, Joe Morgan, went down for. Exactly. Wow. The one that you set up. Right. And did you have to go testify against him in court? I did. Wow. Now, I still remember is Roger Rosen, his attorney, asking me, he asked me a question. He asked me, are you afraid for the safety of your family? So I took that as an implied threat from Joe. And I remember looking over at Joe as I answered his attorney. And I said, well, all I can tell you is that we all have families. And my trigger, finger isn't broken. And he got all upset, all excited, and was asking the judge to intercede and all that. And what year was that? 81, I believe. Okay. So had you already started serving your sentence for the Bakersfield murders when this happened? Yeah. Okay. First question is, did you receive leniency for the murders for your testimony against Joe Morgan? Let me tell you what, happened. I did. I served a total of, and let's do the math together. I got arrested in October of 75 and got released in March of 77. So that's whatever number of months that is. Because they dismissed them. And they reopened them. I got rearrested in May of 78. And I got out in October of 82. So that's four years, June, July, August, 10th of October. Four years and five months, plus you had one year. So a total of about six years is what I ended up doing with the time served from before. And after you testified against Joe, you're obviously, the secret's out, you're exposed, you have to immediately get taken out of, what prison were you at? They had me at that point in Tehachapi in the protective housing unit. Okay. There were 13 cells and all of us, well, just about all of us were either former Mexican mafia, Aryan Brotherhood, and Nuestra Familia members. So we were all housed there. I think maybe one or two guys were not prison gang related, but we were the highest caliber protective housing unit. Wow. Yeah. So after you testified, did you immediately get released or did you have to go back to the protective housing and finish out the time? Oh yeah. No, no. I still had to finish my time. Okay. But that's like being in solitary basically. Yes. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you still had job, I mean, you had yard privileges and everything, but yeah, the lockup was 78. I, gave up the information in 78. They filed charges, I think in 78 and the actual trial, I believe took place in 81. And then I was released in 82. And then the US Marshals took over in 83. And then I became a protected witness and they gave me a new name. Wow. Yeah. And that is where things stand to this day, 40 some odd years, 44 years later. Exactly. Wow. Yeah. Wow. And you know, the irony of this is, you know, God has a sense of humor. Sure does. My, my ministry, if you will, is teaching cops how bad guys think and operate. That's the way I look at it. And that's the way I look at them. I look at them like, like nephews that need to understand how the bad guys operate. That's what the bad guy thinks while at the same time wanting the bad guys to change their ways and get, and, and make a decision to pull away from that life. Right. Most of them are not going to do it. No. But I still would love to see them do that. Well, the idea is to save a few. Right. Okay. So since 83, you've been training cops. Yeah. Have you also been meeting with, you call them bad guys, but gang members? Have you been able to successfully talk any Mexican mafia members into flipping or, or at least defecting from the gang? No, no, I never, I've never been in that kind of position. I don't think they'd ever, unless they had somebody on the ropes, I don't think that would ever happen. It'd be a security, a potential risk. But I have talked to a lot of people who came from that life, ex-Sirenos, ex-Mexican mafia members, ex-Nuestra Familia members, ex-cartel, uh, sicarios and guys involved in that world. And I've counseled them and supported them, uh, given them a lot of support and strength, uh, verbal and otherwise. And obviously I can't get into who or any of that, but some of those guys in the future may, uh, find themselves on your program. Yes, definitely. I hope so. Yeah. Wow. Today, so you've really kept your ear, you've really been kept in the loop all these years. Like, you know what's happening with LaMA even to this day. Pretty much. Uh, and, and a lot of that, remember, there's a lot of people, including myself, that we specialize in speaking about our former organization. Mm-hmm. But think about this. None of us, the day that we stopped being an active member is the day we stopped having firsthand information. I don't care how many transcripts I read. I don't care how many wiretaps I hear or whatever. It's, it's cool. It's intelligence. Yeah. Uh, and everything, but firsthand knowledge, the stuff that you can only get from their mouth. Of course. It's done. But because we are who we are, we, we are qualified to speak. Absolutely. On this because, you know, we're actual former members. Nobody would dispute that. No reasonable person would dispute that. Yeah. I ask that because I would like to know today, how strong is the Mexican mafia, both in the state of California and on the federal level? And, and my answer to you is without endangering ongoing investigations, which I am very familiar with, very intimately familiar with is that they are in, Sudanials, for example, are in almost every state in the union. Now with direct ties to Mexican mafia members, you're talking about at least a dozen states where there are direct ties and investigations that are ongoing. You have prosecutions that are very imminent. Uh, you have, um, older Mexican mafia members with direct ties, uh, the federal and state guys with direct ties to out of state. And this is not even, uh, talking about California. Right. This is within the Mexican gang community and the way it works. First of all, when you do an indictment and I welcome anybody that's even watching this program, just Google Mexican mafia, Rico gang indictment, and you type in different cities, type in San Diego, type in Los Angeles. Uh, and I'm talking about in California and you're going to get so many hits. Uh, I'm, I'm saying dozens and dozens and dozens. And the average indictment, if you were to get all the Sudanials and then divide them by the number of indictments, you're probably looking at about between 75 and a hundred. So most of them end up either pleading guilty, getting convicted or turning. And even the ones that turn, have to do time. The ones that turn, you don't count them in what I'm going to say. The other ones all enter the federal prison system. So they are functioning sureños under the Mexican mafia umbrella, their control. And the Mexican mafia guys, most of them that are active are sitting right now as we speak in ADX, the Supermax facility in Florence, Colorado. I keep track of them. And they are virtually, but not entirely incommunicado. Virtually, but not quite. But they've defanged them. But the sureños, in the absence of a big homie, as they affectionately call them, the sureños represent these guys and conduct business in their name at these other prisons. So they're the number one security threat group in the BOP. Okay. Or the sureños. Sureños. Okay. In the federal, and we're talking the federal prison system. So when they're in that system, you get gang members, Latino gang members, Mexican gang members that are living in other states that pick up a federal beef. Okay. They are attracted, many of these, to the sureño way of doing things. And so Mexican mafia guys will take them under their wing. And they're going to take them under their wing and cultivate them from the state that they come from, which they consider virgin territory. Territory that hasn't been. Cultivated. Exactly. Exploited. And they use these guys who have a good reputation in that state, they utilize them under their umbrella, and that's where that takes place. I see. You know. So the leaders, how many leaders? How many leaders of the Mexican mafia are there left? Like, is there a commission? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, what is the, can you describe the hierarchy? Like, is it the Florence, the guys, the bosses, true bosses? And then are there captains and then lieutenants? No, no. Okay. They used to have a commission for 20, 25, 30 years approximately in the federal prison system. They did have a federal commission. And in the state, I don't believe, unless they started one now, that never has worked well with the fellas. They've never allowed themselves to be, to fall under that. You know, it's structured very loosely with the men that have the, they're highly, that are highly respected are the de facto leaders. You know, but as far as. There is a formal commission. Only the feds had it. There are rumors or rumblings that today they're trying to implement if they haven't already in the state of California. And the federal might have gotten disrupted when Champ died and Willie died. And I don't know if they went back to a commission. I can't answer that today. So how would a, like you in the first episode, you described going to San Quentin in 1970 and after you'd put in work. You had had a body or two on you and you were voted on to become a full-fledged member. How would that happen in today's world? Say a young man goes to, what's the most rocking joint in the state of California now? Pelican Bay. There we go. Is there a voting system still to vote in a young recruit? Yeah, the voting takes place, but now they're not as young, the recruits as they used to be. And it's funny because about 20 years ago, a Mexican Mafia member who defected in the federal prison system told an official there that no Mexican Mafia member should be recruited unless they're 40 years or older. In my timeframe, remember I was 20, 21 years old, right? Or going, no, I was 21. I was 21. The average age of a Mexican Mafia member was 20 years old. And I was 21 years old. Age was in the 20s. We were young. If a guy was 45 years old, we'd call him old man. Old man, Rube Soto, Sonny B and all that. Okay. So now today, now the reason I think that that age has increased anyway, regardless of what this guy said, which that was a very astute observation and opinion, is the territories are all controlled. Already by the existing members. Why would they want to share the pie? Unless you're cultivating new territories, virgin territories that are not already controlled, then you stand the chance maybe of saying, okay, well, this guy is a good money earner and he's violent and okay. And he's going to take him. So it's, it's a little different before in my timeframe, you only circulated the prospects to other prisons. Right now, you know, I, I, I think you have more, uh, I think that requirement isn't if you have a, a, a good number of guys today, uh, say you have, uh, five guys in a prison and they're all in agreement to get a brother in. I don't think it's the requirement is to have all the members and all the prisons. Right. You got a lot of prisons now. And community, right. And communication is so hard, especially these incommunicado guys. Right. Yeah. So it sounds like most likely each individual prison is going to have autonomy. That's what, that's probably the way it would work today. You know, it's very, it's not, but, but there's also a thing where you can't, uh, today you're discouraged from recruiting somebody from your own neighborhood or, uh, or, you know, somebody like that, or a family member, your own, uh, family member. Uh, the reason for that is because there's a fear. There's been a lot of inner, uh, fighting, a lot of internal executions. The number one killer of a Mexican mafia member is drug related. What I mean by drug related, uh, liver disease, hep C overdose, any type of illness, connected heart attack, anything connected to drugs. That's number one killer. Number two is internal, internal. There's never been a Mexican mafia member. And again, this not a big deal, but I'm a numbers guy and I'm into the history. Same black gorilla family never killed a Mexican mafia member. Nuestra familia killed one Cheyenne Cadena. And I check with Renee Enriquez. He's a younger member who coauthored the encyclopedia with me. And I asked him in your timeframe, when you defected in 2002, you got in around 85, you defected in 2002. How many Mexican mafia members were killed by Nuestra familia? Zero. So I said, okay, well, I mean, it's not a big deal. Scoreboard is a, it's like a shutout, dude. You guys are the Dodgers. One. Yeah. You know, and, and it's not a, it's not a big deal because to me, it's kind of shameful in the end because where's the trophy. They've killed a lot of people. Yeah. Like thousands and thousands of people. Only God knows, you know, uh, on the street side, we talked about the prison side on the street side. Is it still common to have a big homie? That's a fully, fully fledged MA on the street. No, no, not, there's very few that are actually out from what I understand from the West coast guys that I've talked to. Very few. Cause most of them are serving life sentences for RICO prosecutions and murders. And I mean, I can go down a list. I could produce a list of maybe 150 to 200 active members today. And the Sudanese are the backbone. Yeah. Unmistakable. They are the backbone without Sudanese and their facilitators. Yeah. They'd be nothing. Right. Okay. But because again, and most of them are imprisoned. So you think about all these guys, if I, if I got a list of them, I would venture to say that 95% of them are doing extended sentence, probably the rest of their lives probably would be upon release like Rube Soto recently in a wheelchair, probably wouldn't be able to function very well. So most likely the members serving huge time when their life sentence is over, they're going to have to go back to prison for a year or a year and a half. Right. I mean, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, it's going to be with a shot caller from a local Serenio gang, whether that's Florencia 13 18th street, et cetera, et cetera. And most of the murders, I never want to not give credit to law enforcement for doing a good job, but a lot of the murders or lack of murders, when you hear LA law enforcement discussing how murders are down. Okay. gang-related murders, right? The gang-related murders are down, but there's also a component of control where the prison gangs are, in Southern Cal for sure, they're involved in the drug operations which takes precedence. And there are many intercepted calls that I have overheard, many active investigators that I've talked to that say the emphasis is on money, you know, and that comes back to what I've said, status, fear, and money. That's the DNA of a gang member, okay? Now the money is really there. You're making a lot of money, so what if you're incarcerated? You got family on the streets, you don't need that money in prison, right? But you got other things you can do with it. So you got the status, it's always going to be there with the gang guys. And with Mexican gang members, you can tell just by their tattoos. Right? You're putting a black hand tattoo on your forehead, on your neck. You're a walking billboard. You're proud of who you are and you're telling everybody, I don't give a shit. That lore, that branding, which is really what it is, La M, Mexican Mafia, they've got the best brand. That lore has to exist. It's the same with the cartels. That's the reason they have a figurehead like Mencho or Chapo, even though you're guaranteed to be killed. Or do life in prison. You need that to keep structure, to keep recruits coming. You just need that. It's like a sports team. Of course. Now, speaking of cartels, I mean, it sounds like the Soreños are as strong in solidarity with cartels moving their product as they've ever been. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. And that's the part of that relationship that's really. I wrote a book. I wrote a book, The Unholy Alliance, Mexican Mafia, Soreños, and Cartels. And that's a recent book that talks about that trinity, that unholy trinity. Can you go into a little detail, just tease the book? Because that sounds like a fascinating topic. Yeah. I have in the book, what I did is not only did I talk about quite a bit, I had different guys contribute chapters based on their experiences. I had them contribute information that was entered in the chapters. Steve Duncan, he's a member of the Arellano Felix Task Force. He's a guy that I'm going to ask to appear on your show at some point. A lot of good stuff that he brings to the table. He dealt with, on a local level, with a lot of the Logan Heights gang members in San Diego, including the. These are the guys that worked under Popeye, Barron, and Bat, and the guys that worked in Tijuana. So you got. He rather contributed some good chapters that discusses Popeye. I have a chapter where I talk about an M.A. guy who became an assassin. Actually, it's a profile on David Barron. Okay. That's one of the chapters. Another chapter I did was on myself. I decided, well, I got him in Mexico. I did myself in the U.S. Of course, I have to navigate that like a minefield for obvious reasons. So you're not implicated. Yeah. And then I did one talking about Sudanios, how the breakdown on Sudanios. I had Nelson Arriaga. He's a retired. He's a retired officer detective from Englewood, and who today is an international speaker. He teaches on MS-13, 18th Street, Florencia, and other gangs that proliferate. So he contributed a couple of chapters there on the international flavor. So it's all interwoven, and that whole mess is connected with Mexican drug trafficking organizations, or MDTOs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Sudanios, loyal to obviously the Arianofelix organization, but that's almost extinct as a cartel. Now they are. It's Sinaloa competing with the CJNG for control of Tijuana, and no one group will ever have control of that city. It's too fluid. There's too much money. There's too many different. Moving parts. Moving parts. But does, like, say we're very close to the turf of the Florencia. 13, would a Sureño gang like that have, be working with different cartels? Like, would they be working with the Jalisco and Sinaloa? Or would they just be loyal to like the Mayisa, the Mayo side of the Sinaloa cartel? The gangs were, are going to go, they're going to flow in the direction that the Mexican mafia is flowing. So to answer your question, would, I think the question would be, would the Mexican mafia work with different cartels? Okay. So they're still the ones, even these guys that are locked up forever, the Mexican mafia guys are the ones on the phone with the bosses in Mexico. The best way to put that is they're the ones with the hand in the cookie jar. That's right. Yeah. Because all things in California, for sure, everything flows through the Mexican mafia. That's how they work. Still there. Yeah. Oh yeah. So who now, who's the dominant cartel partner with the Mexican mafia in Southern California? You know, that, that I'm not aware of. That one, I'm not familiar because I just don't know, to be honest. Yeah. I kind of, I assume it's whoever's got the best price. From what I know, and I know a lot, I think it's, I think it's multiple cells dealing with mostly Sinaloa, but I think a lot of, I mean, look, mentioned- Joe's brother-in-law, I believe, was found to be living in Riverside, California under an assumed name. His daughter runs a coffee shop. I mean, I think they're dealing with a lot of, I think they're dealing with competing cartels. Probably so. At the end, it's business. You got to connect. This guy maybe doesn't have a line on the fentanyl right now, but this guy from a different cartel does, et cetera. Yeah. I don't think that can be controlled by a street gang. You know what? Because if they do something that conflicts with the way the territories are set up under the Mexican mafia, you're going to have problems. So, and the cartels, whoever it is that would want to enter and do business, they have an arrangement with the Mexican mafia. There's something that they're going to both gain out of that. So, but it's interesting. Your question is probably, there's probably guys out there that can answer that, investigators, that know, you know, who's who in the zoo and can give you that general answer, right? Wow. That is an amazing, amazing story. So, since 84, in that 30, sorry, 43-year time period, how has your life personally changed? Did you get married? Did you have a family? Did you get off drugs? Because I know that you were dabbling there. I dabbled for a couple of weeks. San Quentin in 1973. Oh, that's it. I thought you dabbled when you were out selling it. Oh, the coke. Yeah. I snorted some. I didn't mess with, I didn't inject it or I didn't mess with heroin, but I did get high on my own supply, snorting some coke. In fact, I remember one day I got a little paranoid. I'm in a residence with Dangerous Dan, Joe Morgan, Champ, Reynoso, and they're shooting up heroin because they, they get high on their own supply. And I, and I had snorted some coke. I remember getting a little paranoid. I remember Joe walking me outside the house telling me, man, you got to get off that shit. You're not really a user. I said, yeah, you're right. But I was really paranoid though, because the drug, that's the way it affects you. And I was working undercover. Yeah. But I, of course I couldn't tell him that, right? Right. But you didn't continue using. No, no, no. I was never addicted. After you're out of the life and not working undercover anymore. No, no, no more. I did. I worked in retail is the best I can put it. Retail management. I worked for a couple of decades, pulled away from that. Never married. And just, you know, stayed, stayed healthy, you know, work out a lot. Yeah. And now you're in this circuit, this, this consulting circuit of law enforcement. It's remarkable. And you call a lot of police, your friends and, you know, you've got a lot of, you know, feds and, and other people that we, I know that have been on the show. And a lot of ex, a lot of, I'd say a lot of ex members, you know, that I, I keep in touch with, we interact, we support each other. Rene, Rene Enriquez, you know, I look at him like a nephew or a little brother, you know, I want to see him succeed. And he is succeeding where they have, where they have. You have him, you know, he got out and he may be a guy you might want to talk to at some point. Definitely. Yeah. Have you, you think. about all the bodies you have from back in the day, do those ever come back to haunt you? Or do you feel you've been cleansed through Christianity and your new relationship with God? Well, let me sum that up in a little illustration I'm going to give you. My mother died a few years ago and I remember when she died and I flew out and I remember the feeling when I saw her and I felt like somebody was whispering and telling me, now you know how it feels, you piece of shit. And I felt like a piece of shit for about, I don't know, 20 seconds, 30 seconds maybe. And then I dismissed it. And I rejected that thought in the name of Jesus, because I feel that he has already forgiven me. And if I receive that forgiveness, which I have, then I'm not going to get tricked into thinking that what I did was so horrible that I'm not forgiven. Right. That's a great kind of inspiring point. Yeah. You can't do that. You can fuck up a lot. Yeah. I guess you can fuck up infinitely and only the consequences you suffer from man, but you don't suffer them from God. No. Well, you'd be surprised. There's many people and they're haters. They're all over. Haters will say things like, oh, how can you be forgiven? You're going to go to hell, blah, blah, blah. Oh, I mean, they can say it and I'm not mad at them because they're looking at life through one prism. And they're looking at it like, again, a good Catholic might look at it. It's a mortal sin. You know, you did this and that, you know, well, to God, sin is sin. And if he forgives you, he forgives you. So I choose to cling to that hope. And I guess when I die, he'll confirm or not. Yeah. We'll see. Yeah. Vamos a ver. Órale pues. All right. Plug your books, man. Yes, sir. You are a prolific writer. You know, and I love writing. I love being alone. I can do jail time. So if I ever get confined to a bed, if I'm ever, you know, like get to where I got a sickness that's incurable, I say, give me a remote, throw me in a room, give me a pretty nurse and I'm good to go. Like doing time, right? So I got the Gang of Gangs, the Mexican Mafia, that's my autobiography. Got the Mexican Mafia Encyclopedia, co-authored with René Enriquez. I've got the Prison Menace, talks about the prison. I've got the Nuestra Familia Encyclopedia, which I co-authored, ironically. I say ironically, I'm a Mexican Mafia, ex-Mexican Mafia member, but I know a lot about the NF, so I was able to collaborate with Brian Perry. Brian Perry is an ex-SSU agent. I wrote The Unholy Alliance. The one I just talked about earlier that discusses the relationship between Mexican Mafia cartels and sureños, that's five. The Boys from Boyle Heights, I co-authored with Tony Moreno, retired LAPD gang cop. We're both from Boyle Heights. And the seventh book is The Shoe War, where I talk about the, it's actually like a breakdown of the history of the North, Northeños and Sureños, North and South. So those are my seven books. So there's something for everybody that's into this subject. I have two websites. There's Police and Fire Publishing, which is more historical than anything. Convicts and Cops is one that I'm really working on. I'll be conducting a lot of interviews on that. Maybe we can share people that have been on your podcast. I can bring them over and vice versa. We can trade off. And what else? You already mentioned the Mundo movie. Yeah. Let me show this one more time. And I have a DVD of it. This is so cool. This is like having a cassette tape or something. Yeah, an A-track. Mundo from Ultra Boy to Hitman, and they could see this digitally streaming. On a streaming channel. Yeah, dude. You can view it for free. Man, what a gift. Yes, sir. Wow, Mundo. What an incredible life, and what a piece of history, a piece of Southern California American underworld history that you were like a linchpin. You were a key figure in. Really honored. Thank you so much for coming up here and doing this. Thank you for having me. And I just want to throw out Psalms 139. That's a scripture. You read the Psalms 139, and you can't hide from God. The truth will always be revealed. That was inspiring. God bless. Thank you. God bless you, brother. Thank you, guys. You got it.