Season 9 | Ep23 Ben Richardson & Mike Bott: Why LHi Group appointed two CEOs

"I'll let's be CEO about a week after I joined Alex Cheyent in 2007." I kind of thought it might have just been me or it might have just been bloody. On a Friday morning in Q2 2025, two recruitment leaders at one of the most recognized recruitment brands in the world got a call. Ben Richardson and Michael Bach had both spent years climbing towards the same job. Both believed that the next step in their career might be becoming the CEO. But instead of giving the job to one of them, the board made a decision that you almost never see in the recruitment industry. They gave the job to both of them. For 25 years, LHI Group had been led in a traditional way. Tom Glanfield built it. Jim Denning took over and ran it through COVID. They scaled it to a hundred million turnover. Three hundred people, nine global offices across five specialist brands. Instead of handing the business over to one successor, they handed it to two recruiters that have both come right from the ground floor. Guys who've built desks first, then built teams, then built offices, and then built countries for the company. And whilst both expected, they might have a chance at the role they never expected this. Now, I'll be honest, I think, before we were approached about being co-CEOs, I hadn't even crossed my mind. This model sounds incredible. I had to ask one question that was in the back of my mind, the whole conversation. I've got a tough question for you here. The co-CEO structure, I did a bit of research and it doesn't always work. Netflix have tried it and failed. Like Salesforce tried it abandoned it. Even Google tried it, it only moved away. What do you think could be the thing that breaks this partnership? It would have to be. Now this is really a story about recruitment. It's about succession. It's about leadership. And if you're a recruitment val, I think it'll help us next beyond you in your business, then this conversation might change the way you think about that decision. Because maybe the answer isn't finding one successor. Or finding two people who trust each other enough to share the job. So this is a brand new episode of the Ragnapodcast with Ben Richardson, Michael Pop, co-CEOs of L.A. Ben, Mike, welcome to the Ragnapodcast. Thanks, Anders. Thanks for having us. Pleasure. Joining me from across the globe. So we've got Ben in Sunni L.A. Is it Sunni L.A. today? It is. I try not to talk about the weather too much because everyone else I talk to seems to be in rain or cold. But yeah, I've got blue skies and sunshine. Beautiful. And it's 9 a.m. This guy. If I was listening, this guy starts his day at four o'clock in the morning, 4.30 in the morning, L.A. time, which is early. He's like a radio DJ we've defined on a breakfast show. Mike, you're coming in from London, am I right? Today, yeah, in London, yeah. So you have been in the rain and in the morning. Andy, you're day like me, right? So I'm sure you've been at it. Guys, thanks so much for giving me your time. You're super busy, guys. I'm really excited about this. Obviously, I know you've done a couple of podcasts quite recently with other hosts of really good shows. So some people might not have heard of you. So might have listened to your previous appearances on other shows. I think it's good that we give a clean start and an introduction. I've done a brief introduction. But if I'm just going to ask Mike just to start, give us the overview of you guys today. I don't want any detail, any story, just who you are, and what you're responsible for right now. And in the short, it's possible, elevate a pitch. International recruitment company with five specialist brands currently led by Ben and myself as co-CEOs. Main focus is America and Europe. Yeah. And Ben, LHI Group is how old now as a business? Oh, 24. Is that right? Yeah, go with that. Sounds good. And you guys have been there each for a really decent 10 years. How long have you been there, Ben? I'm 14 years. And Mike. I'm 19 this year. 19 years. Wow. Yeah, it's a real, you could do your second testimonial next year. I feel it as well. I'm a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, you look fresh mate. You look fresh. I mean, look at, you could look like me. That is real stress. Look guys, as I said, the thing about LHI Group is I've had, I've obviously had Tom on twice. So I had him on in the 2019, he came into my office in London, which was amazing. Pre just before the pandemic. And he was telling me about how he's you know, he's close to stepping back and skiing and all these things. Iron man's and, you know, what a story from the early days of LHI. And then I did speak to him in the COVID, right early early on in COVID and he was like, yeah, I'm back in a little bit, a little bit more than I've probably expected. And then I've known, I'm not a gym on, but I've had Tom on again a couple of years ago. I think it was last year actually. So the brand that Lawrence Harvey LHI Group, people are familiar with. But you do got a really unique story because you've come in straight away, the co-CEO title. Like I don't think I know another business in our sector. It doesn't come to the top of my head. I definitely not interviewed another business that can say they've got co-CEOs as titles. So let's get straight into that, right? So what has actually happened? Talk us through, pick on you Ben. Talk us through like, how did this even come about that YouTube would take over a business of the scale that you are? Yeah, I mean, like I say, it's rare. And I'll be honest, I think before we were approached about being co-CEOs, I hadn't even crossed my mind and hadn't heard of it a great deal either. I guess I'll go back, I'll start with Jim because I think it's worth giving him a mention in the chat. And the business and the organisation that he helped build and how he stood us through COVID, the post-pandemic bounce that we had, to our EOT of him. He did an exceptional job and created a really, really strong culture across the group. I think he basically got to a stage where he felt he'd taken the group as far as he could. He wanted to spend a bit more time of his little ends outside of work. But it was also really important that he remained part of the business. So the last thing I will say on Jim is, so he's still part of the organisation, which was super fortunate for, he's a future EO coach, which is like a leadership development type coach. Just a step in there. Consequently, Tom Glanfield started the business and was founder for what, 20 years or so was it? Or not just, it was 18 years or so? And then Jim was five, I think Jim was five years, wasn't he? He was a CEO, right? So founder, replacing himself with Jim, who'd been there a long time as a solo CEO and then he took that job on for five years. Yeah, exactly that. And I think he started having pre-honest conversations with our chairman James and Tom towards the very early stages of last year. Basically saying that he wanted to remain in, but I felt it was the right time to step away. And so James, Tom, the exec boards, ran a bit of a process. I think they looked externally a little bit and also considered all the internal options. And you'll hear I say this a lot and me and Bobby talk about it a lot, but we complement each other really, really well. We have real, real strong skill sets. We're very comfortable leaning and trusting on each other to be responsible for the parts of the jobs that we're not good at. And so I think naturally it just sort of came to light, the business would be in really good hands. And so we were approached, what, mid Q2, end of Q1, mid Q2. Or who you both in at the time then? Mike was chief commercial officer and I was chief operating officer, so CEO. So we're both global, both global role. Both reporting into Jim. Yeah, both reporting into Jim. How many other people were on your level at that reporting into Jim? Leap Mark. There is a Marie as chief people officer and then Ed CFO. Right. Okay. So you were the natural two people reporting into the CEO anyway. Yeah, we all always played a key, obviously key role in our swim lanes at that time, for sure. All playing very different roles within that as well. So it was a nice compliment basically to what Jim was doing as CEO. How early did you know Jim was feeling? How he felt? Did he, did he keep that protected from you and talk to Tom and James? The one, I think one of Jim's best traces is honesty around that. I think he was like, he always said this wasn't his end goal. He didn't want to be CEO for next 20 years. And his real passion is around, his life. He actually speaks to him one on one. His passion is the leadership, what it takes and seeing that development. And I guess in that CEO role, the bigger we got, the less time we actually get to do. Sometimes what you actually really enjoy. This is probably what some people come on to later. And I think from that perspective, he was really open. He said, I see an endpoint in the next one two years and he was always talking about the future. His future isn't the CEO role. It was different aspects of the job with all without us, but obviously wanted to stay with us. And so I guess we probably found out, I played wasn't expecting it that day on that moment if you like, but it wasn't that I wasn't exactly going, oh, it was a huge shock. I was like, cool, he's cool there this time. He's ready to make that decision. And we'd been a team of four or five there for two or three years, kind of day to day, week to week, month to month. So it felt like quite, well, quite easy transition that I guess we'll go into it. I think we probably both thought one of us are going to get the call. And then it wasn't. Did you have a chat independently about that? Well, afterwards, because we were very, very inspired. We weren't afraid to one on one, but we've got the call. But did you have a chat between the gym news and even getting approached where you like, you know, no, I'd feel as if you get it or what I did that conversation. We literally found out that the gym news as we were being approached for the new. All right, so then that's my that was my original question right so there wasn't any lead time it was like you go from suddenly. Jim's going to there's a job available there wasn't any like beauty parade and you know they're interviewing externally any of that stuff. No, no, no, no. So what did the business look like at that point taught me through like head count locations it might not be much different now but let's just go back to that period of time last year. Pretty similar from where we're at now realistically apart from I guess the XPS wasn't a standalone brand it was part of the LH proposition that we use through that contracting model and we really we really weren't in the embedded world as we are now and we'll point it on to it but we are moving towards that talent solution if you like from a business angle that that wasn't in place that when we started at all and I guess from that perspective location wise exactly the exact same as it was then so still in the eight locations that we are now although since then we've obviously moved that a little bit in different locations move move head count around more I'd say a probably circus similar size. Right. So what went through your head Mike like when they suggested this idea like talk to me about where were you and what what was going through you. Officer home just got told to be on a call with this with Tom and James. As soon as you get that call you very rarely told me is ever fact if ever in the business at this point so it was definitely something big coming. You think you're getting the tea or cold. We had a pretty good year so I was expecting to get fired so. I was expecting one of two things and yeah either to be told Jim's leaving and your CEO or Jim's leaving and Ben CEO you know a YouTube and a work with together I didn't expect the KCO to be definite wasn't even at the forefront and I probably made no I'd probably been as vocal as Ben independently quietly to James Tom or Jim saying that that was that I wanted next to get 100% right so you're already flagged through conversation. Oh it's me CEO about a week after I joined LHI in 2007 so it was. Let's put that down then why. Just if you're going to do something work your way to the top is just pretty much what I've been told day one day and from my parents have lied again do it do well. I'm not good enough to be a pro golfer I'm not good enough to be well wanted to I'm way too big to be a Formula One driver so from doing improvement I might as well do it to the best of my ability and I thought the best of your ability is making you wait to see I don't see a bigger role in in a company that you're going to play in my in my opinion people get different joy out of different aspects but everything we've done I don't want to talk for Ben but probably the same is wasn't probably about the financial world it was probably about the title level. All right what was the same thing. I've got more questions on that specifically to you but I'll hold it for now and then saying questions to you Ben Mike did you think they'd lost the plot or did something click immediately with you when they said it. Yeah mine was my experience was relatively similar but just eight hours delayed so I got 4 a.m. to a very very we didn't even wait till it was like a time zone where the kids do. Very like a luring message from from the chairman that had arrived in my WhatsApp at 2 a.m. so 2 hours later basically saying can you make yourself available before a couple like no real context so again going into it was a little bit a little bit blindsided probably had a bit of an idea and yeah when he said it I think I went through relatively big change curve quite quickly you go from I think the high of wow this sounds like an amazing opportunity it's great then you do hit that period of I kind of thought it might have just been me or it might have just been body so you kind of go through that that period of time and then for me personally again I don't I won't speak for Mike but I think really quickly it started to make a lot of sense real quick and the more we spoke about it me and Mike had a conversation pretty soon afterwards and basically got on the same page really quickly and from that point on was it sort of made a lot of sense. There was a lot but I think we both knew that there was a lot of fleshing out and a lot of conversations to be had around how it was going to work but I think we fundamentally in a really strange way we often think so alike that there was much of a concern that we weren't going to be able to figure it out it was just we need to figure it out but we were quite confident it was going to fall into place. So how long did that take from conversation with you guys to it was agreed and implemented? We got told we got asked on the we basically asked would you do it together independently and by the Monday morning first thing we both said yeah let's go. Yeah basically the weekend that was just because it was a weekend but I think between between us we both talked what's that and left a voice though on that Friday three different times after talking then oh that could work as well and a few ideas that are popping in and it's like oh maybe we could do this and then all of a sudden like we were already doing it on Friday night when we knew Friday morning we were both probably there and then you kind of have a glass of champagne with your Mrs and and congratulate yourself because you just got the job that you both wanted but doesn't matter if you're sharing it or not you still says see over the door and it's like we both wanted the same title. So then you've got to accept it on the Monday along till it you started because Jim's still there right? Yeah well we we announced it quickly didn't we I think from from the point of accepting and agreeing to I think we were talking to the business about it literally two weeks later so it's a real like a real quick process and people in the business I think that I've spoken to it didn't realize how short of a time gap there was between finding about out about the new gig and then actually rolling out and then I would say from we probably had four orish to six weeks before we actually started and then I always think that first quarter so Q3 last year was really where we found our swim lanes and we started to really develop a way of working and that included face-to-face meetings, Microsoft and LAA we booked a day and a separate office and just spent some time really getting into the detail which I'm sure we're going to but it probably took that quarter to finesse and work out who sits where and then Q4 we sort of found our feet and by the time we started this year we just didn't really really good spot and pretty much business as usual and cracking on. So to go back a step on what to Mike's first thought was I want to be CEO Ben can you confirm that was similar what where was your thought around where you were going? I think maybe not early on I don't think I had as much confidence as maybe Mike did early on it took me a while to sort of find my feet but certainly as a slight progress through the business when I moved over to the state 15 that was a big turning point so yeah I think as I started to game momentum I started to step more into leadership that was definitely a goal for sure. Now you're both really ambitious guys and running an incredible business like I know a lot of people listening to everything why are these guys not founders of their own business why didn't they sell their own why didn't they leave and set their own up in Divin why didn't they do it together like has this not been a you know there's something going on in that business to keep you guys there for so long so there's kind of a two part question why didn't you want to do your own thing and why did you stay? I think I get asked that all the time especially like where quite a few people have left during that time I think first and foremost I don't believe it is as easy as some people portray it to be and I think it's a lot a lot of people more more fail than going to the world of Tom's story is unbelievable I genuinely believe it's like a one of I don't know another genuinely like that and that level and so therefore sometimes it's not always as easy as it or people make out and I guess for my personal sense of kind of answer it is once I was in the business I genuinely I was quickly in leadership positions and having a say and then when you have a when you have a say you feel like you are all ready to Tom's skills set and gyms they give you enough enough rape to have that kind of I guess you feel like it's part of yours obviously working towards the EOT there's a nice cherry on top if we actually achieve what we were you know not just for Tom but there's 109 of us out of that first deal that got got some sort of pay and so we always believed in that we were building the right business to go and achieve that goal and that was a significant number but more importantly you kind of feel like you own it you do have that ownership of whether it's your office or your brand whether that's the more senior you get we try to make sure that you know you you are running it and I basically never felt the need to go and put myself in a position where I had to look out swear to have that ownership I felt I had that ownership probably I for about year two and I was I joined when I was seven of right so it's business but I always felt that I was in the room every week every month with Tom having a say no whether the my say went anywhere or not didn't matter but I at least I had a voice yeah and so but long then you get to your eight nine years and then we started obviously America from scratch and that for me Mike and Ben he started that from day one from scratch was that was even again it was like building your own business but we had total autonomy so we definitely felt ownership over that then Ben started L.A. I then went and started Austin so again we're still the There is ships still there. more. So by the time you get to a point, you might, weirdly, might, might, they're might missing it. You probably catches up with you and you go, "Shit, I've given 10, 12 years here." And I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm MD, the business, I've built most of it." Like, arrogantly or not, arrogantly, with the team and everyone else, put you like, "I've helped build London, I've helped build New York, I've helped build Austin." And you kind of go, "Okay, well, it's a lot of building." And now I've got to finesse it. And hard to walk away, the character, the character, obviously, the EOT opportunity. And then once you do the EOT, what can that lead to? And then, you know, you're so far in, it would be very difficult to walk away to start. For me personally, I've never even thought about it, start, man, get a gem now. That's all I can say about it. There's some real loyalty there that runs through. And again, I'll ask you the same question then. But it's like a two-pronged attack, isn't it? It's about being feeling like you've got ownership and then actually proving you've got ownership. So then, how would you tell us your story on that question? Yeah, not too dissimilar. I probably have had those moments, particularly in the moments of being like, "I'd one year, I've really, really shot on Bill again." And I'm definitely not anywhere near the recruiter of the vast majority of my business. But the one year that I had a top billing year, it was definitely the back of your mind, like, should I spin out and go and do my own thing. But to my point, the amount of times that I've stepped sideways or moved from building a contract desk to a permed desk, to a US desk to launch our life science business, and the amount of times that I've basically reiterated myself and had a chance to build a business, it's sort of given me the opportunity and the chance to start from scratch. And I just love, one of the things I love the most about NHIs when you look around the business of our 250 sales heads, like 40 or 50 of the best high potential leaders that are stepping into huge roles have joined us from scratch and have worked the way through the business. And you can do that in ones and twos, maybe five, when you first get started. But being able to see the impact that you can have across a cohort of 30, 40 people and move through the business. And they grow up through the business. You see them buying their first houses, their first partners, marriages, kids, et cetera. Like that, I just couldn't imagine starting that again and missing out on the growth of the organization. And I fast forward like five or 10 years down the line and we're doubled the head count, triple the head count, and the amount of people that we've moved through the business and to have self success. That's the stuff for me that there's kept me here as well. Like I just, I couldn't imagine not being part of that journey. And I'd always be looking over the fence at what LHI were doing. I think if I'd, if I, if I weren't here. That's a great point. You can walk away, but imagine walking away. You've got your five-man band, you're killing yourself, LHI hit three, four hundred without you. You'd be like, that would, that would be your, I would find out so hard. I can say, I think you only feel that way though, if the experience when you're there is so good. Because I think if you, you know, if you leave a business and it didn't feel like that, you won't really care. I don't think you'd be, you'd be so focused on what you're doing. You'd like, in a nice possible way, they're in your rearview mirror. Like that's just, I mean, I can only relate to the story of, I got a business. I was with them from seven to 55 and then I moved on. But I didn't feel there was that, I mean, I loved the, I still taught some occasionally of the guys who founded it. And I've had Barnaby on the show, but I never, I never quite felt what you felt. Maybe it was me. Maybe it was me. Maybe I didn't have the capability to, I wasn't, maybe the guy that they truly wanted in that role, but I never felt, I always felt like I was running their business. I was pushing their business. It was their agenda. And it was not about, there was not one point where I felt it was about what I wanted. Even though I was allowed to do what I had freed him to do things, I never felt like I was told what to do. I never felt like the, the, the journey was my journey. Do you know what I mean? I think we try and play in the pitch, don't we? Like, of what, of where that can lead. We're not going to be in this role forever. And like Jim was never going to be in his role forever. Once Tom moved out, then there is a, there is a line that where as we keep growing and evolving, new opportunities come up, come up, come up. I was the first MD in two to five years, trying to know if I need three or four, just through the scale we want to achieve. And I think that opens up opportunity. We've got some people have left to start their own businesses like Fair Placing, they're not cheap. Everyone, our, our attention is in a hundred percent. But little things like this year alone, we've got, we've got 15 people hitting 10 year anniversaries. Yeah, that's mad. Some, but I, and we've still got the 15, 20 above them that already passed it. How old are you guys now? I'm 41. So I'm the old one out of the two of us. What do you bed? I'm 34. Right. Yeah. But to be again, both of you have got, if you did want to stay in this role, you've got so much time ahead of you. You know, you're like, I look at it like a football manager in like, in that, if you're a 35 to 41 year old football man, you've got as long as you want, really. You know, you're not at the end of the 10 year, whether or not you can keep running at a certain pace for that long, well, is it is a different question, right? Just, I was, I was concession just to go back on one of the points that you made as well, just about your journey and, and how you felt as part of that business. Botty made a good point. We, we don't have 100% retention. And so we have lost people that have gone to set up their own business because they've had that, and that's crash to it. And the way I look at that is, I wish them all the best. I hope they do incredibly well. We try to leave on, on really good terms, but I look in turn, they think, what could I, could we have done to create an environment where they felt that they could have done what they wanted to do, but with us. And I think in 50% of the times, there's probably more we could have done, we could have been more purposeful. To your point, we could have got around them and made them feel like it was their business and they had more of a role to play. And then in 50%, there are just people that would want to go and set up and do their own thing. And they were always going to want to do that. And maybe they wanted to slightly more of a lifestyle business and they wanted to have more freedom and flexibility. And you've got to respect that. And hopefully, LHI was a vehicle that helped them get to where they want to get to. So, yeah, just for a double click on that point because there are people that move on and I see it as our responsibility to make sure that those key players know where they're going and the runway that they have with us. Yeah, I've got you. I've got you. So, okay, break, let's look, before we go into the co-ceo stuff, just let's go back to the LT piece. So for anyone who doesn't know, I've mentioned this on a few episodes now, employee ownership trust is a way of essentially selling the business to the people of the business, right? Can you give us a, I mean, I'll pick on you Mike, just for ease of not talking over each other, but just give us an overview of what you did and when you did it. So, basically, obviously, as Tom was founder through an EMI scheme, we basically been given shares over probably five to seven years prior. Some of this overlooked when doing that absolute genius from Tom and I'll give him his credit, right? So, we were pitted against each other. So, you basically had every half year, you were however much you grew your business unit by is how many shares that are equated to. So, our competitive recruiters, would it promote that much harmony? It wasn't too bad, weirdly. Collaboration was okay, but it was, we weren't like, if you were at a certain level, it was all about, you got more shares, the more you grew, half year to half year to half year, and that worked. That was absolutely, I don't know if you got stole up from someone else or without his brain child, but that really worked for us. We were never stood still, I think even through Covid, before EOT, that model was in play, but we kept the business whole from Jim and Ed, came up with incredible schemes. So, we basically really didn't fire anyone through Covid, people left because it was awful time, especially that first round, but we didn't actually actively make people, we didn't go 20%, we could not make as much money. We thought we had enough money in the bank to hold for as long as we could, and backed ourselves that if it bounced, we were going to be bouncing with it. Wow, we got that right. And that was genius from Ed and Jim, like that moment of those guys going, we're going to hold firm and all dig in. We found a half decent number, we weren't operating like we were the year before, but we stayed whole, and as soon as that six months kind of didn't go away, did it? But it definitely opened the floodgates to people understanding how remote work. We really bounced with that, and that led to the EOT deal where, yeah, ultimately we decided to go down the EOT route based on the fact that we kept control. So, although we were going to pay Tom out, and we'd all have a share on day one, which is around 30% of what we rode, then that ultimately meant that we kept control, Jim kept the role of the CEO, and we all kind of stepped into those roles to play more of a serious role of how the business moves forward without talking about the full chance. As an individual leader and a shareholder, what did that actually mean for you? I can imagine how for Tom, like, you know, majority of his shares were passed, and then he's getting paid. It's a time of what? Sixty-odd percent of the business, and the rest of the 40% was split between the 109 of us that were left, and we all had obviously, through the years, of the crew different amounts of shares that ultimately on day one with the money. - With the whole of the share value, go into the trust. - Yeah, sorry, 80%. - 80%? - 20% left over here. - Yeah. - So, and therefore on that basis, yeah, everyone did pretty well out of it. In that 409 people did got some payout, and obviously that was tiered out. - Was it paid in one go, was it paid through the business profit? - Yeah, so, 10% day one paid out, and then every six months, we tried to, we paid off a proportion of that, because obviously, we're also giving 8% on what you're owned as interest. So, it's quite a nice scheme to leave you money in some parts. - Yeah. - And then we kept on, we obviously did that every six months, which is like a Bruce Evonus, obviously, for everyone, which had in that scheme, which was great. So, a point where we did another refinancing march last year, and did another raise, with the same, with the same HSPC again, which was probably even more impressive than the first one, just based on the market in the world we lived in, in March last year, and how it was set up. That was a seriously impressive for our run rate, and our ability to raise that up. - What are the numbers of that? - Sorry? - What are the numbers attached to that? - We raised another 25 million. - 25 million. - 25 million. - Which, we were one of two that HSPC had done a re-race with, which was super impressive. - What did that materially mean for the people? - So that basically meant that money again was raised to pay off more of their first loan notes. And so ultimately, from that perspective, as of March last year, we paid off 80% of what you were owed in Deal One, which over those three years, from the markets we were in to the world we were in, I mean, I mean, here's to get shot down, bars that are pretty impressive for the numbers that were paid out. - When we did the first deal, I remember we were on a big Zoom call, the Jim was hosting. As you were sort of explaining, firstly, the fact that we're able to acknowledge 100-night loan loan holders, and then also talking about what an EOT could mean. Everyone was sort of sitting there knowing that it was really, really good, but not really understanding it, and not really understanding how it could be possible. But it was always really important to Tom, and I think this is something that was really important to me and Mike, and the rest of the exact team now is, we don't want to be one of those businesses that talk about doing events or raising capital, and then not actually recognizing the wealth. And we talk about it a lot, like that 80% is something we're super, super proud of. But what we're now chasing down, how do we get to a point where we've paid off that 100%, and then how do we get to the point where we can do this next EOT deal, which every single person that's been within the business for a minimum of 12 months will be a stakeholder in the business, and will receive some form of payout. And it's not like minimal, I think. C1 is entry level, C2 is consultant level. So you'd expect 12 months tenure at everyone, at least, to be at consultant level, to be part of EOT, at least, hopefully. But even at that level, there is a six-figure, our estimated proceeds for that person is a six-figure number. So it's just-- It's just time, isn't it? It's crazy to think. It is. Time out are we on for that? We don't do timeline sure. We don't. You said that, I'm pretty cool. We fell into the trap, and this is a good thing to talk about. Well, we fell into the trap when we did that first deal, purely because we were in such a good spot, and maybe a touch of naivety. We spoke very quickly about a timeline that we're aiming for. And that would be one thing that, you know, hand tights a great thing if you could go back. But we have a real clear ebit number and a real clear valuation that we want to try and achieve. We talk about that internally to the business. And so when we get to that point, when we're hitting those GP numbers and hitting the ebit, we'll go to market. But it shouldn't be a million miles away. Like, people should hopefully be sitting here feeling like it's possible, and it's in touch in distance. And you update the business on a quarterly basis around the numbers and give them that real insight into where everything is. If you're going to hire someone off shore, make sure you pick the right partner. Today's sponsor remote recruitment are my partner of choice. And the reason is they put every single South African hire through a 15 point vetting system. They run a bespoke trial built with you. So you see what they're like before they even enter your business. They do the final interview after proof of performance. And there's a free 12 month replacement if they're not right. So there's no like seeing random CVs and loads of interviews. It's just a really seamless process that is stringent. It's organized and it works. And if they don't work out, look, they'll replace it really, really quick. So you don't need to worry about nation insurance and I setting up companies. They manage the whole piece without you worrying. Now, if you're a rag listener, you get 5% off your first hire. You get a free remote hiring roadmap. And they've got an ROI calculator that you can look at back office and business development roles and see the impact they can have on your business. If you'd like to access this amazing offer, go to www.remotrecruitment.co.uk forward slash. Right. Yeah. And we're pretty clear. Like if you're here for that, you're probably in the wrong seat. Is that cherry on top? It is serious. Well, thank you. And especially a junior that's probably going to hurt over the market. But everyone's going to have to be when we are getting to that point. He's going to be going into that point and going through it. And so if you're just there for that moment, you're not going to help us get there and beyond it because companies are going to invest in you. Not for that moment. They're going to invest in what you're going to do a year one, see three and after that. The great thing about doing that first deal is we went into the deal and the year after we did 50% growth. And we were like, whoa, we are well on track already. The word that just keeps coming to mind is loyalty. That's the word that I keep thinking like this structure and the way that you're building things is like, you people are like going to be glued because of the, and it's not just a, yeah, there's a big golden ticket. But like you say, it's not just to get to that golden ticket, you've got to put that much effort into people that they're like little one estate. And as a general expect point, people have a small, very wonderful, and they were excited by it. And it's like, we understand to get that number out of the business in three, four, five, six. We got to work like 120%. We were flying in that first deal. We were working night and day and everything was clicking. And like, that's how we got the valuation and the multiplier. Like, we were in a decent spot. And then we pushed on again, hence the 50% growth of the year after. And we were like, we are getting this right. But the numbers we want to hear to get and afford that six figure payout for that C2, C3, etc, etc. And it goes up at every level. So super transparent. We're going to have to be working at 120%. And I think that's where you can get wrong. You can get, oh, many, I'm here because the guys will do it. They'll get us down. I'll get them my money. It's like, no, we're going to need every sales consultant bang on it. But then every back office person bang on it. And we are going to have to really believe that like we are able to achieve that number. And it's a balancing act, isn't it? Like, how hard you push just for the number. It's not relevant. But it's a moment in time in the LHI history, and it's not relevant. But it's a moment in time in five, ten years time when we're doing another one or going again. I think that's the point. I think that's when we probably got a little bit wrong. Everyone's excited by the end number without knowing how hard work will have to go into it. Throw into there that were tariffs throwing there the world that we live in. And everything's happened in the last couple of years. Then all of a sudden you get knocked at different points. You got to that. I think we've adapted pretty well to be fair in the market. What we want is to hit it in two years, which is completely unrealistic. But can we hit it in the next couple of years? I believe we're building the right business to do so, which is super exciting. Just on as you were describing there, just reminded me of a question that we got in our town hall. So every year we'll go around to all of the offices and do local town halls. And someone said to us, "How can we track or tell whether we're having a good quarter or a bad quarter, if we're tracking towards the EOT deal?" And a really, really good way of doing it and how I sort of articulated it was. If you look to the left, you're sitting on your desk and you look to the left of you and to the right of you. And the person sitting in either side of you is behind where they need to be. They're not on what they're expected to be doing. They're not hitting their targets. We're probably not anywhere near doing a deal. And if you look to the left and the right and they're 110, 120%, and they're doing tons of deals, that's a probably a pretty good indication that we're motoring in the right direction and pretty close. And it sounds really basic, but it is really real. Like if every single person in the business is on form and operating at 120%, we need to add some headcount, but we will be in the position to be able to go and do what we want to do soon rather than later. Was there a question between to get to the 80% repayment of the loan notes? Was there like a question mark around reinvestment in growth versus paying that off? Was there a trade off there? I think we did both. Being honest. I think like we're just like anything. I think the feedback we get from recruitment, especially, I'm sure you get it more than we do. But like all these share schemes, all these promises, and it's like we wanted to do a deal. And we wanted to go like in fact, he became obsessed, became quite obsessed between Jim Ed. And I was to about an amary about like, we want people back as fast we can. The matter of people here about do a deal and they get 30 or 50% day one. And then they set targets over the next three, five years. Like, did you get anything else after that? It's like targets are crazy. We're never going to hit them. And we want it to be the opposite. We want it to be like, yeah, in the three years since the first deal, getting 80% of the money. back I think. So especially in the market that isn't going like I think we can all agree it's not the worst thing. It's nowhere near where we've come from. So therefore on that basis we were like it was super important and for confidence and like you said quite back to the 10 year guys that have been there 10, 15 years have put it into that point like you wrote that money. You did everything to get us at that point. We want to give you that money, that life changing money back to going by your house or grading movies or whatever it might be. I think that was super important to us. I don't think we were offering it a level where I think we could do that. If now look can we always you can always invest more where you can always something new and shine to put into your business. But we were super super focused on making sure that people that had got us there would look after us fast because also confidence wise when we do another deal 12, 18, 24 months. It's like I and then once you get your day one money and I just know reason why we wouldn't try and do exactly the same method of every six months. Here's more and here's a bit more of what you owe and that's why people would stay because like well they they honor their work like every six months we get another 2050 100k wherever it is depending on what your level is. On top of doing the job itself we're a recruitment company that pay out. It's amazing. From an operational standpoint like as the EOT transaction changed the conversations internally from like at different levels like are people more but maybe conscious of cost and things like they really feel like it's there. Have you noticed the change in like it feels like their equity or their business. I would say it's working progress. I think to start with people don't really understand how an EOT works and therefore they didn't really connect the whole fact that every dollar or pound that we spend has a direct effect on on sort of evaluation stakeholder. I think people are now maturing in starting to understand it but it is that fine line of we want to be really really transparent. We want to give people as much clarity as possible but we also don't want people to be operating purely through the lens of an EOT because we want to build a really really good recruitment firm. So I don't really want a VP or a director in London not going to a conference because I think it's too expensive because it might affect the EOT and I'm like that isn't a healthy well to be and we want people to be out there meeting customers. So we're I think we tread that line really well and we find we find that gray area of still investing, still backing people, still spending where we need to but there may be slightly more frivolous when when the time comes and Ed, I see a foe is a bit of a wizard and is really really good at helping balance those books and you know we've got higher intrigues that we stick to and it's it's all been a working progress but people are definitely way more aware of it now and are way more conscious of why we need to be as efficient as possible. Yeah, yeah. So let's get to the CEO the co-CEO piece right so what how would you define the job that you've got like the clarity of what you each do and I'll start with you Mike. I say to everyone it's a bit cool 80% of the time I do the job I absolutely love and I think I'm best at and I think that is and that is completely complimentary. I support Ben on a lot of what he does and he supports me in a hell of a lot of what I do for sure but I swim lanes are pretty I guess I end up so my role ultimately is I am responsible for the day-to-day week-to-week month-to-month GP, finding finding the money all the office leaders report I guess done at least about with us but they have a direct line to me and all the commercial and the commercial leaders report to me as well so anything that is recruitment day-to-day week-to-week month-to-month from ratios to clients to hiring triggers to PPH to gaps in stats stats and facts is probably what and best that I can see patterns quite quickly of what could affect I'm in that detail all day every day with every every level of the business so they don't have just the office leaders so they get more people get more of me how many how many different offices are there eight great right and they are we and between me and Ben we try and be in office not Ben's in LA I'm obviously I'm in London but we're probably on the road every other week between us in a different office so we're big one of the reasons the KCA came about I guess one of the big reasons was that FaceTime I think we're in a time where you have to be visible you have to be in front of the people you're asking to work that 120% and you have to be showing that you're also putting 120% and I think I'd say we did that pretty well but it does help having two of you so we always talk about there is not one point where someone is awake in NHI where there's not a CEO online I think that's pretty cool wow I like that I started 7 a.m every morning I thought I was pretty good but everyone in an office or online 7 a.m which means Germany 8 a.m we've got no Asia Pacific stuff going on there no no yeah and so we are we basically say like there is no time a consultant leader could be online we're not which I think is a is a pretty good way of looking at it so before I go into you Ben just like what does your cockpit look like so what's the kind of like the highest level key performance indicator is that you're obsessed with on a daily basis that's quite scary question if you look at my study not a whiteboard I've got everywhere and I guess I really work on a real basic ratio basis per per brand because every brand does work a bit differently yeah and then I have a collective week to week expectation from the business and I know I run rates so if we're producing X amount of jobs I know our ratios are why I know that I'll lead to Z and I'm just monitoring that on a on a half day basis realistically with the leaders looking for gaps and stats within that you'll spot problems within a half a day space yeah we work two and a half day sprints as a business the whole business works in two and a half day sprints so you basically you set up on Friday at Friday evening and every single person in the business should know when they choose day to Wednesday lunchtime what their targets are and what they're expected do you have a review with your manager at 11 o'clock on Wednesday and then your action plan is to catch up or if you're over how far can you push it for the week so it just means you catch things look like we block I believe it I push that across all leaders and managers that you catch things like quicker I think the thing in recruitment is loss of time if it's loss of time on job quality or it's loss of time did a long task I think you can still lose two and a half days and have successful week but let's say it's Tuesday at lunchtime in the UK and you're spotting a trend there's an office in London there's a dig from a bottle no bottle no someone's behind target before they know they're behind target yeah so you'll be like we've got a we've got an issue here with like CVs out there's not really I mean it's really boring example I'm putting a red bus but I ran Katie at lunchtime today saying we want a half days in your ex amount your average calls average BED average time on the phone like you guys are off like is everything okay good answer three people at a conference yeah I've been told it but I've spotted it as if they're in the office I'd be like why are we so far behind a basic it's not crazy numbers it's not like I'm shooting a number out of nowhere it's based on their averages and their averages of what their averages actually represent that's where every brand and every business is different so I've gone there everyone's different different ratios well that's good using my time of night is yeah I spot we don't really such words fall too far behind at any point so how many days of you out of your cockpit talking to people are you are many days you're looking for a day call today are you out and about in front of people versus being sat looking at the data yeah I'm probably way more internal than I am extra like obviously I'll meet clients I'm invited to clients with the guys and stuff like that's not not a problem at all but yeah I am on desk or in office working with leaders to understand where their gaps are and what they need to do to even if you're in office and you chat to people like every half day you need to stop and check the data oh yeah I've got I mean it takes I've got dashboards that have sets up that will give me and I'll know it's I mean I literally it's like rain I'm not like that bright but I can genuinely I thought if everyone's got a super power I believe mine I can just look at a lot of data for a business unit in London or in Bristol or every go hello why they're like obviously I'll just trigger something my brain to look at it I'll deep dive quickly you have a you have a phone the leader and they're like waiting for you and they're like I'll just give me a minute mate I'm on it oh my eyes they get told they're on it it's like okay cool what what what you want and what what you're trying to do to fix it it sounds like it's not as microse it sounds because a lot of time the guys are so well trained of what I'm looking at they're also looking at it so like it's just it's just put those I guess those pockets where it just falls off and it's trying to catch it as fast as you can but my other time is there either training I mean I've just come off two hours doing a C1 training in yeah get in my hands there so I'm happy to do that as well but it's just where the leadership need you as well can you take X out for a coffee can you help why would their set up you know you can you look at their desk and analyze their desk this is not lealding the results versus the inputs like there was basic sales techniques that need to be dug into which I guess that's my that is my wheelhouse I'm pretty I'm better doing that and probably I was a recruit I was solid at recruitment I can just see patterns quickly and I can keep you pretty. accountable to a standard that I believe we should be hitting. Yeah, many people think it's quite a high standard, but I'm a believer. It sounds incredibly high, but I mean, I'm a city fan and Pep Guardiola, you know, I love Pep and I think one of the things is it's insane high standards that he's always had for us and, you know, I think it leads to success. Now Ben, talk us through your part. Yeah, so I am, if Mike is or what he is everything in month, in week, quarter to quarter, my way I look at things is anything outside of the immediate. So I'm a quarter, two quarters, six months ahead. And so things like group strategy, leadership development, succession planning, I spend a lot of time, we have a program called Future U. So I spend a lot of time sitting down with our leaders mapping out internally, what does their business look like in six to our 18 months and then personally, what does their world look like the direction that they're looking at? Is that also Jim's remit as well? Yeah, so Jim works with a very, very specific cohort of, like, almost aspiring leaders or leaders that have recently taken on bigger jobs. So he's really, really specifically working with them. Mine's probably slightly bigger picture. So Jim will work with them as an individual to get them better as an individual leader. I'm looking at them around how they can build their business, how they can structure their business to be able to keep taking it forward. Group communications, it's with me, so any major announcement or our quarterly kickoff or our town halls, etc, our typically host and and and what you'll be there to support. So yeah, it's it's it's really, really clear and I think the nicest way of looking at it is body is the engine of the business. So the day to day, the heartbeat, the engine is Mike and then I'm sitting there making sure that we're going in the right direction sort of steer in the steer in the vehicle in the right direction. So that's interesting because my next question was about that time zone bit you mentioned, right? So you said there's never a point that there's not a CEO online which makes perfect sense, but actually you're quite different in what you're doing. So so when you go to bed, Mike and let's say it's afternoon west west coast time, whatever, what happens then? Let's say there's a client on fire and it all there's a real there's a data problem and it would be your bag. What do you do, Ben? And how do you make sure that a decision or responses the right response? You know, and you because you can't speak about it because you'll be asleep. Yeah, yeah, I think one of the things that I think we do really well is whilst we do have the really clear swim lanes, like I have absolutely no doubt that if Mike was to take on some of the stuff I was doing, he'd he'd do an acceptable job at it and and 80% of the time I know what he'd say. And I think it's sort of vice versa. So if there is a data issue, a client issue, one fire and the the team will reach out to me if Mike's not available in vice versa and genuinely it's it's a bit cheesy to say, but we communicate, me and Mike communicate more than I communicate with my wife during the week and I think it's the same for Mike as well. Like the amount of voice notes, it doesn't even have to be a back and forth. It's like just letting you know this is what I've said or this is what I've done or this is something I've spotted, it's just constant back and forth. So I think that people feel that as well, I think they recognise like how often they talk him. There's a good example. I think Mike went for a lunch with our London office leader Sue and by the time they got back to the office, I'd already known what they've spoken about and and Pink Sue and she was like, this is crazy, like, yeah. I'm just thinking if it's like the time zone, like late afternoon on a let's say you've not picked up or do you pick up the immediate data in that gap when he's asleep, like how does that work? No, but by the time it gets to, by the time they get to that point, there's there's not a great deal of impact you could have. Yeah, he's just picking up the next day. And I think this one on the data thing as well, just one thing that I think is really important is one of the skills that we've learned and we try to push through our leadership team is whilst we will spot trends ratios activities, we'll know if we're behind really, really early. The job of the office leader isn't just to take that information that the boss has given them and beat them over the head and like almost regurgitate what's been said. It's done with a lot more finesse. So hopefully like the team leaders, the brand leaders underneath the office leaders don't, they don't just get hit straight away with you need to do more. It should be, it's flagged to the office leaders, the office leaders then know what leave is to pull, it's trying to influence that. So I think it's a good thing to emphasize as well because it isn't just pure every two days numbers get thrown down their throat. It's done with a lot more finesse, which helps the engine keep moving in a positive way. Yeah, got you. Now I've got a tough question for you here, maybe. The Co-CEO structure, I did a bit of research and it doesn't always work, right? You've got Netflix have tried it and failed, I think Salesforce tried it abandoned it, even Google tried it earlier, moved away. So the failure rate can be high in some instances. I want to ask you like what do you think could be the thing that breaks this partnership up? Tough question. Really is a question. It would have to be a monumental disagreement on our philosophy, which we've worked together for 14 years. Neither of us have any ego what it comes to doing this job. You've got to leave that so far out of thought it's unregulated. And lastly, you've got to trust, oh, I couldn't genuinely, I'm not saying I've said it a thousand times at a time. I wouldn't do it anywhere else. If it had been someone else in LHI that James had said you're going to do it without it going to be like I'm not. I trust him at a Kevin, I don't get too emotional, but it is literature. I trust him implicitly. Whatever he says, you know, I don't agree with it. He's done it purely for the betterment of LHI and because I think he has, I mean, I am as institutionalized in recruitment as it gets. I just live and breathe it. And I think the only person that comes close genuinely to me is Ben. So therefore I believe every decision he's making is in his opinion to make as a better business. It would be something that would have to be broken. That's the end of it. That's game over. If one of us has some reason somehow, got it so wrong that trust was broken, we'd have to go immediately because you didn't like me saying, no matter how calm those that happen, I wake up to a voice note, heads up, had a chat with X, set X Y and Z, it's leaping you in, it's like, cool, 99.9% of this said the same. And then also, if you do get it wrong, mate, I've done this like, I think of every step. It's like, you Pratt, you have, appreciate you saying, we know it. You know it in second. I just think if that trust got broken, I think I can't think of anything else. I think we battle to fix it. It's a really good question, I've actually thought about it. The only other thing I could think of is if one of us got bored in our swim lane, so if one of us decided, actually, I'd want to do more of this and didn't communicate it effectively. I think even if we did that, we could probably talk and mark out a way of one of us doing more of some bit. But I think if one of us got bored and just started to want to sort of land grab a little, then I think that could happen. But yes, it's a. I can tell you very safe, because a lot of stuff you get on, yeah, some of yours. The reason I asked the question, and actually, I'll give you my honest opinion of what I've heard, is you feel like founders to me. Like, you know, I wanted to see if it felt like, if I look at me in my business partner, I mean, it's my best mate from uni, right? We met on the first week. His room was opposite mine. It's a whole story. Yeah, so 2004. So what are we now? What are we now? That means. 20 years, isn't it? Yeah, it's nuts. He's still my best mate now. But we've gone on a journey. We've got married a month apart. We've got little girls in the same year, they're both two, two, it's nearly two months, two and a half, but they'll be in the same school year. We've got the exact same CV. We became teachers. We moved to Australia. We got into recruitment. Ransetad. We moved to London at the same time because we moved together. So like, if you look at our CV, it's fucking mental. I'm like, I think me and him could do a job like you for somebody else, but we've not. We've done it ourselves. But if I was going to pass on the baton to someone, I'd want them to feel like a founder. And I think you two feel like co-founders. That's what it feels. Now, it's another question for you, right? So, and again, this is just a spitball. A lot of people listen to this show and not at the size and scale of LHI. They're not. They're not talking 300 plus head count, 100 million turnover. This is not real. They're sub 30 people, but the owner's. The founder can often get to a point where they feel, you know, they need to step to one side. They need, you know, for whatever reason, they haven't got the energy to keep lead in the business. Maybe they just don't think they're the best at it. A lot of them just need to get out the fucking business's way and be better at sales and let you said, Mike, do the bit, you're really fucking good at and you enjoy it. So, I don't think many think of this as a succession plan option. That actually you might have two ready-made people in your business that could together do the job. So, I guess the question is, do you think this could work in a smaller organization? Where it might be 20, 30 people because you both worked in a business that was smaller when you were smaller. And you've worked in brands that felt like small organizations within the bigger organization. So, could this be a viable option for a founder listening who's like, you know what? I like this. Good question. I think I personally, I think definitely. And I think the really important word that you said there was succession planning. So, this isn't. I don't think if that was. if it was a direction you were looking at considering making a decision six months, 12 months before you exit doesn't work. Like, I think you have have to be really, really intentionally building your succession plan years in advance thinking, right, this person's really good commercially. This person's really good with people and development. This person's really good at KPIs, that's facts figures. And almost molding them in that vein as they progress and getting them to lean into their strength. And you could have it across two people, three people. There has to be super, super intentional and over time. I think typically what I see, and a few people actually get some of the smaller organisations have reached out and said, hey, I'm really interested in this model. And I think where it falls down or it doesn't work is if you try to make a quick decision on it, it's square peg round hole, it doesn't work. So it does take like a couple of years of succession planning and really priming people and putting them into the roles and pushing them into the right direction. But I think it could work for sure. I think couple to that, which I think is 100%. But understanding how they work, not when it's good, when it's bad. So like, like, made not intentionally making it bad. But there's got to be a test aspect there and how they communicate. I said before, like, the problem with most jobs is most people want the top job, right? That ego is there. Whether that is through longevity or just how it wired. But I generally only think it works is because everything we try and do is to make, like you said, from a founder idea is like to make the business better for all of us. I think that's quite hard to do, getting there. I think I've always been a founder and looking at my next layer. I think you've got to probably incentivize them to work together and you've got to quite test them working together. And like, does it flow? Is it natural? Are they cutting each other off? Are they really sniping each other behind each other's backs? Like, you know, I could comfortably say, like, we haven't done that for years. I'm not the only one who ever did. But as in, like, in the last four or five years, the more we've got higher, the more we've worked together, the better the better it is we've got. I've lent on Ben over the years just so many different conversations and so many other things. Like, oh, mate, you do that with L.A. or can you do this with that person or whatever? It's like, we always started using each other. And if that's quite natural, then you really do, I mean, like, if it looks natural, sounds natural. Perception's reality, I think, sometimes on these things. I think you might want it. You might, oh, I don't know which ones to choose. I give it to them both. That is not a reason. It has to be a, it has to be a, let's go into that then, 'cause that might be, that might be common where they've got two people who've been around for a long time, paid similarly well. I can see that a lot. Yeah. And they listen to this. I don't know if you like to give it a both. There needs to be a clear, like, differentiator in your skill set. I believe so. I have a goal to give two good people. I think 100% there needs to be, there needs to be two good people. There needs to be real clear differentiation in skill sets. And there needs to be a level of comfortability of like relying on the other person versus almost feeling threatened. So I could see how in a business, if you've got multiple people lying for a position, you can almost view them as a threat. But for me, I would lean on Tobotek when I would lean on him low. So I just know that he was fundamentally better than me at some things. And I'd say, I need you to, can you take this off my plate? Can you do it? You're going to be way better at it. And it's just being really comfortable with that. And not worrying about how well he was going to absolutely nail that conversation or drive activity. So, yeah, that needs to be there for sure. I like it though. I genuinely do think it's an option that more founders listening, including me, like, you know, I'm not in that position where it's even a thought right now. But I think the bit that maybe you're the luxury you have at the size is you're probably not as sales focused, right? Where's a lot of people at 30 people, they're still billion or they're still at least very client-led at the CEO level. But then I've seen businesses where the CEOs then gone and just done that and added loads of fucking value because they're really good at it. The bit that you two are doing is short term and long term thinking. And you split in them up because it's very hard to do. But I'd say me and Amor of similar. Amor is fucking on it every day with the sales team. Like he's in it. He knows the numbers. He knows commercially what was spending. And I'm thinking 369 months ahead. So I'm probably more like you Ben. And Amor's more like you in our business, Mike. So it's that because it is really it's really hard to I mean someone like Tom Glanfield, super hero because I don't think I could do it at that level. So it's really low in there. Yeah. Like you are the it's quite ready for us. And we've got I think the best CFA, the best chief people officer I know. We've got them in our business. And obviously pretty biased. But like we have that support network got Georgie in the US. Chew sales officer. Absolutely legend. It's like these are people I trust implicitly. And we still find it like some Friday's voice. It's like. Bloody hell. That is that is a week in it. It's like it is just got invented to someone. I think some of the guys on their own like big big big old small. You go on a Friday. You're like I got I'm not sharing this with anyone on my set. I have a lot of my life. at least and what's going on from the US, but obviously the AI I think one thing we've done from a seven person business I joined to now is our ability to adapt whether that's cave, areas, possessions. I think you've got to, once you've been to the change curve a few times, it doesn't get easy but I don't think it's fearful as some people think. I don't think we see it as a shit that's coming for us. I think it's more of a what's that room and what can we do with it? I'm probably a bit old school. I'm a big believer in getting on a plane, getting a taxi going meet someone face to face to that and shake someone's hand, Iso I and that I believe that will get even more prominent than ever before. I just think that the mundanity of what we have to do to then go back and do all the admin and the adding and searching and all that sort of stuff. I think that will be quicker and be made quicker and more efficient for us, which will allow us to do more face to face work, which I think I've got a beautiful, romantic vision of the recruiter is the face to face of something more than ever. I think after Covid it vanished. I think last year we spent more on travel and conferences and face face meetings and any year ever in L.A. history. And we're being deliberate and I think our client base is saying, you've come to meet us like it's a USP. It used to be like a given. It's not a Zoom meeting and it's like it is different and we are making that effort. I believe A.I. has got a place. I think there's so much noise and so many tools out there. What works for you and your business, whether that's the demographic of who you hire, the salaries, whatever it is, locations, I'm sure there's something for everyone. I think you've got to be very deliberate in what you actually want from that tool and what you want it to give you to afford you something else, maybe not to replace but will it allow you more hours back to do something different, not just give you more hours back that you don't use. I think it will outlook on that. What about you Ben, anything you'd add to that? To my real quick snapshot on A.I. is I think it will increase productivity. So I think we'll see the expectations of what a consultant can do in a year increase so we'll do more or less. I think eventually it will wipe out a lot of the lower level roles that you can typically apply for online. I think it will strengthen the need for really, really good client-facing recruiters to Bottie's point because there's an element of human relationship network face-to-face value that I don't think that I'll catch up with. They're probably my three very, very high level thoughts in A.I. And just to touch on the group journey, Mike touched on it. As our many competitors, we're on a bit of a journey to a talent solution. So we're trying to find different propositions in different ways of being able to talk to our customer base, perm contract, exec, schedule of work, consulting, advisory, etc. So we've got all of these streams and propositions. And we just want to keep evolving that. So I think with the enhancement of A.I. being more productive per head, focusing less on the lower level stuff and being able to talk to our customers in multiple ways, giving them multiple propositions. I think that's where we're going and where we're in that, hopefully. Exciting. Well, I wish you the best to look. I think you both great communicators clearly got a proper chemistry between you. And I'm saying that sincerely, there's a real honesty and a trust you can see and feel, especially while I'm on this call. And knowing Tom, he's a smart guy, and no gym, smart guy, they've not made this decision by accident. I'm rooting for you and I hope it goes incredibly well. I would love to get you back on again in the future, see you're getting update. Maybe when you've got some kids bending that stress, the hair starts to run away or goes really gray, I'm excited because, off air, me and Mike talked about that. It's not as easy as it's not an easy lie. Sure. We might have had some arguments by then as well. I'm going to say, yeah, five years, five years, five years, I haven't worked. Then we'll give you a real story about how it all unfold. But until that point, I think we're all good. That's it. Thanks so much. And if anyone has listened and just really wants to go right, fucking hell, this cozy, other thing is an idea. Can they reach out to your own LinkedIn? It's working to quite a few people already. Like, literally 10 man bands up to 100. Right. To dig it. Like, people's like, just give us some insight and always have this sort of, both of us at any time. All right. You'll be tagged in everything. Please, if you're listening, do reach out. Thanks so much, guys. Cheers. I'm sure. Thanks again for listening to today's episode of the REC podcast. If you haven't already, please do subscribe wherever you listen to this show. As the more subscribers we get, the more people will listen and the more recruitment on as we can help. As a recruitment founder, you must know that things have changed. AI is everywhere. Cold outreach is getting harder and job boards will learn what they used to be. But personally, despite the negativity, I believe the future is the greatest opportunity of our lifetime in recruitment because for the first time ever, a founder with five recruiters with a clear niche and the right systems can build the kind of influence, reach and profitability that used to take 500 recruiters and a global office network. The agencies that are winning right now aren't necessarily the biggest, but they are the most visible, the most trusted, and the ones building inbound demand. A hoxo, we're working with clients who are running multiple six and seven figures in net profit outperforming the negative noise and headlines. So to explain what these guys are doing, I've created a brand new free masterclass video for rag listeners. In this video, it's less than 10 minutes long, I'm going to show you what these businesses are doing differently from the rest. So the link's in the description. Fill in the form, watch the video and see exactly how this system that these clients are using could work for your agency. Good luck.