Season 6: Tell Me This with Peg Drew

This B podcast network show is presented by IXL. IXL's all-inclusive online teaching and learning platform simplifies edtech needs and accelerates achievement in 95 of the top 100 US school districts. IXL delivers personalized learning across comprehensive pre-K to 12 curriculum, including math, language arts, science, and social studies, and it helps you assess student performance through actionable real-time insights at every level of your school or district. This one solution performs work that typically requires dozens of different tools. Want to find out why so many leading districts trust IXL? Visit IXL.com/BE. That's IXL.com/BE. All right, hello everybody, and welcome back to tell me this. I'm Brianne Roos here with Perry Borkoski. For our new listeners, this is a podcast about all things belonging, community, connections, collaboration, and holding space for what is possible. Over the life of this pod, we've explored research and scholarship on or related to belonging. We've shared stories and listened and engaged with diverse individuals about belonging during the pandemic as parents, as leaders, and in relationships. We recently wrote a book, which is finally out, in here, about belonging based on four seasons of podcast episodes. And we continue to be grateful for our listeners and guests who are willing to share their stories, which are truly the foundation of our research. This season, we're talking about belonging and grief. And while grief is most often associated with death, we've also come to think of about grief in transitions, in changes in expectations, and even things that are eagerly anticipated are things that we want to happen. Today, we have a guest who's going to share her experience of grief related to living with aphasia. And for those of you who have not listened to the past few episodes, aphasia is a language disorder that occurs after damage to the left hemisphere of the brain, often due to a stroke. Aphasia affects people's ability to read, write, listen, and speak, but it does not affect intelligence. So given that background, I now have the pleasure of introducing you to our guest, Peg Drew. Peg and Mike have a combined family of 10 kids, 22 grandchildren, and two dogs. Peg retired from her family business, at Van Dyke and Bacon on January 31, 2023. She enjoys volunteering in different capacities. Presently, Peg is a peer mentor and a wellness coordinator. She creates guided meditations at the Loyal Ethnical Centers with AVI and TBI survivors. Maybe we can talk a little bit more about that later. Peg had a stroke on her birthday in 2018, and she's grateful to be here to talk about it. And her challenge is with Aphasia. Peg, thank you so much for being here today with us. Thank you. Oh my God, I have to say I have to pause for a second because 10 kids and 22 children, Peg, we're just meeting today, but our family has three kids to 10-year-olds and a 13-year-old. And I feel like that's a lot. So just in awe of your ability, you and Mike to manage that household. Well, thank God I didn't burp them all. No, it's a lot of bodies in one family. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm curious about Van Dyke and Bacon because I've been buying school shoes there for my kids for years. Oh, there you go. Why was it the office? OK, well, wait, it's all in the floor, but I was only in the office. We bought a lot of saddle shoes and a lot of bucks from Van Dyke and Bacon. Yeah, awesome. Well, Peg, as you know, because you've listened a little bit to our pod, we always like to begin with the check-in. And our first question is really just, how are you today? How are things? I'm feeling well. Just took a walk in the woods with the dogs, and that always fills me, so I'm feeling good. Good. Yeah. And are you in Maryland, Peg? I assume. Yes, Baltimore. Yeah, we're the Pegs. So it is going on, like, 80 degrees in sunny and Baltimore today. It's the most beautiful morning. So awesome day to be out in the woods with the dogs, for sure. Great. Well, Peg, this season, we are talking about grief. And we always like to just upfront ask a little bit about definitions and how you and our guests think about grief. So our first question for you is, how do you define grief? And what words or feelings do you associate with it? I see grief as deep loss with lots and lots of feelings. The number one being sorrow, brokenheartedness, heavy energy, darkness, emotional pain, and also gratefulness, especially the depths of very close family members, I always float to gratefulness. That's now-- I see Perry's wheels turning there. I would love, if you wouldn't mind saying more about that, like that gratefulness, what that looks like in a moment of grief for you. Well, when I go back and think about the people that I've died or one person in particular, at different times, I always go immediately to gratefulness, because I am happy that they were in my life, and they had deep meaning for me. Yeah. I think also, Peg, you're the first person to define grief with energy. That's a new one, too. So I love that you're reminding us that there's an energy piece to this. I think you said heavy. Heavy energy. Heavy energy. And not that heavy energy is bad. It's just-- It's not the light feeling when someone dies. It's a grounded kind of energy. You have to sit with. Yeah. So yeah, I'm beginning to energy and the-- what energy entails. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as a coach, I often ask my clients, sort of what's their energy level or what does it look like, or was it feel like? So and I see you do meditation. So it would make sense that that would be a strong connection for you, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome, awesome. The other piece of this that we always love to give folks a chance to comment on-- deception, description of grief. We also found in the literature and in other conversations that sometimes there are differences or distinctions with your personal definition and then sort of how culture or society views grief or how society defines grief. And so I'm wondering, what are your thoughts about that? What are you seeing in your community or in society larger around grief? I think in society it is generally very uncomfortable. People hide it. They try to clean it up. It's not talked about. I think we have a tendency to just push it away or compartmentalize it. I think grief generally is very private. And that's OK because you have to process feelings. So yeah, that's what I see as far as other people's grief as well as mine. You know, that would be the same thing. I have to figure out what I'm feeling and why I'm feeling. Yeah, Peggy, you used a phrase that I really resonated. This idea of clean it up. I knew you were going to say that. And I'm just wondering. So if it's clean it up implies messiness. So there's a messiness and then there's a cleaning up. Can you briefly describe either in your own experience or someone else you've observed? What's that look like that shift from the messiness to the cleaning? I'm just so curious. Oh, that's a good question. When I think of cleaning it up, in order to clean things up, you have to realize that it may be a mess. And then you start from there in OK, what is it that's messy? Where do I put it? Do I put it in a closet or do I actually go through it? And it may take a really long time to do that. That's not going to be cleaned up that quickly, although you can hide it for a while, but you have to actually experience it or not. And some people don't. And that's OK too. Yeah. What a powerful metaphor of acknowledging the mess. And I'm almost thinking, you can tidy without deep cleaning. Right, exactly. You can sort of put on a mask a little bit, I guess. I don't think we've thought about this cleaning metaphor, but it's kind of neat to run with that a little bit. And I like that you use that. I knew as soon as you said clean it up, I said, "Carry's gonna ask a question about that." You guys know each other well. - Yeah. - But we haven't heard that language yet. And it's so, so appropriate. I think it's a really neat way to think about this. - Yeah. I think it also begs the question going back to the original question which was around sort of any or society perspective or perceptions, which is, you know, who gets to decide what clean and messy looks like. - Right. - And what would it take for us to create spaces for mess? - Right. - And the healing. So, yeah. So I was really appreciative of that. Clean it up, notion. So in the intro that Brian shared, you know, we already shared that you, the challenge is aphasia, you know, in the narrative. So I'm assuming that your grief story is gonna be around this journey. And so this is sort of the time in the pod where we invite you to share Peg as much or as little that you want. We always remind our audience that, you know, these are your stories to share. And so calibrate it to whatever feels comfortable to you. But we would just love if you're willing to hear just some of that story. - Okay. A little background. I had a TIA or mini stroke when I was 39. 2001, I went to Johns Hopkins and met a neurologist and he was just trying to figure out what happened and what's going on. I had 13 different procedures. And they finally concluded that I have a rare blood disorder that it's called antifospolipic syndrome, which causes my blood to clot. - Yeah. - So the only treatment they gave me, I think because I was so young was to take a full strength aspirin. So I did that. I did that for 17, 18 years. And then in 2018, on my birthday, we were going to Lancaster to celebrate goats with B&B, have a nice dinner. And we did. And after Aaron meal, I was feeling off, which I'm sure you've heard before. If you're having a stroke, you're certainly not feeling great. But I was feeling like really off. And I couldn't describe it. It was a feeling of malaise, I guess. That would be the best way to describe it. I left the restaurant and went outside because I had to get a breath of fresh air. And my husband followed behind me and he said, "Are you okay?" And I said, and I said, something like blue, which made no sense at all. And he looked at me and he had no experience with stroke or many strokes or anything. So he said, "Well, let's go back to the room," went back and he said, "Do you want to just go to bed?" And I thought, "Oh no, I know what's the annual is and I should not go to bed." So I said, "No," and he said, "Do you want to go to the hospital?" And I said, "Yes." - Good for you. - Yeah, so, and luckily I could say that. I was real good with one words, but not anything beyond that. So he Googled close to the hospital and because he didn't know anything about strokes and he pulled up Lancaster General which is 15 minutes away. And luckily, it was a stroke center. What are the chances of that? I thought I was in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I didn't know anything about that. So he, we jumped in the car and he just had me start to recite the ABCs. And I don't know how he came up with that, but he did just as, I guess, gauge what's going on. So I started saying the ABCs and I was like so exhausted, probably by the time I got to CRD that I had to stop. So we pulled up, he was found a parking garage. I don't even think that parking garage was intensive in Lancaster. So I immediately went to the emergency room and handed the woman my insurance card. And I don't know if I said TIA or said stroke, but one of those and he, they immediately took action, got me all hooked up with the CT and found that I had a clot. So I had a five hour from back to me, how do you say it? - From back to me, yep. - Yes, I had that. And it was mostly cleared, but not all, but so they gave me some other medicines to give me. Came out of the operating room and a gentleman stood in front of me and at that point it was the neurologist, but I didn't know it was the neurologist. And he held up a hundred dollar bill. And I thought, oh my gosh, this is the best. You get an operation and they pay you for it. I couldn't say hundred dollar bill, but I was able to say one zero zero. And he looked at many smile, he said, you'll be okay. So that was affirmation that I was gonna be okay. And, but I was left with aphasia. And I didn't know what aphasia meant at the time. I do now, I know how it feels now. So I wanted to share the poem that I wrote about what it felt like to have aphasia. If that's okay. Yeah, yeah, please. Okay. It's called If Only, The New Me arrived on November 21st, 2018. If only I could edit my brain. Would I lose my mind in the process? Looking out from the inside of my jumbled, nerve branches, I see moments of exquisite clarity surrounded by cobwebs of uncertainty about who I have become. Excuse me, Missy, when did you arrive? You are an imposter without an invitation. Words now to see me in colorful phrases stick to the axions in my brain with bubble gum glue. While caged vocal murmurs scream to be expressed, speech is hidden in the deepest crevices of my neuron forest, slipping mischievously to my voice, where the syllables elude me, speak, pause, spoken. Now is the time to create a brilliant, fresh, gray masterpiece, where hopeful dreams abound with possibilities of sprinkled guts and determined courage. So, oh my gosh, that's incredible peg. When did you write that? I wrote that actually when I was in therapy at Loyola clinical services, the one of the grad student clinicians said, "Oh, you like to write?" So write something, take your time and write it. So, I've been wanting to go back to the whole experience, the different episodes and just put it on paper because that's generally how I process information as derailleux poems. So that's what I did. And I wrote that probably two years ago. - How do you have some uncertainty? - Yes. In the same sentence with exquisite clarity. Like those things together. I mean, have you shared that with other folks with aphasia? - No, I showed my. speech therapist at Loyola, but I think that's it. And my husband and my daughter, so. Oh my gosh. Well, I feel privileged that you shared it here. I, first of all, I would love to read it because I was taking notes as you were talking. I think you captured like the most beautiful challenges of living with aphasia in that poem because you talked about like I could hear that you know the words. There's that exquisite clarity and then there's this cobweb of mess. And what did you say bubble gum glue like the ones stuck in the axons? I mean, you have like science and and the frustration just comes right through. And the fact that you have such clear thoughts with all of that is, is evident there. I love that you talked about like the courage element of this and the guts because I think it takes so much. And I don't know what firsthand. I only know it from working with people like yourself. You, you named a lot in that. And I wonder. I just feel like that would be so beneficial for other people to read and to just feel seen in that. In the challenge that they're living in. Yeah, I'd like to write, I don't know pamphlet or or a small book about because I've written since I was like 20 written poetry. I'd like to have like a little booklet for people that have aphasia to sort of let them know that we're all the same boat. And for me, and I was going to talk about it later, I think stroke and TBI people and ABI people are the most remarkable people as far as stamina and working hard. It's just I so admired them. And just to interject with breaking down acronyms. So TBI is traumatic brain injury and ABI is acquired brain injury. So you sure folks who are, you know, working through a brain injury of various mechanisms. And what's TIA, Briance, and you're doing acronyms? TIA is a transient ischemic attack, which is a mini stroke. So when peg had that mini stroke at 39. I don't know what your symptoms were peg at the time. A label to speak. Okay. So typically the symptoms will resemble the symptoms of a full stroke. And so, you know, to do what peg did is what you want to do is to go to the hospital and get it checked out. And then finally a warning sign of something else going on and peg at all those procedures to figure out that she had this disease that causes, you know, plotting. Sometimes probably more often it's like a high blood pressure issue. If you're talking horses versus zebra's in terms of like frequency of causes of strokes, but it's not something to ignore. So that's what a TIA is. It's a mini stroke. And often the symptoms resolve, which is the blessing of a TIA. So just make sure that you're figuring out what the underlying causes so that you can try to address that and hopefully avoid a stroke. Okay. Thanks. I'm not in that field peg. So Briance often has to translate and help me. So I'm sort of the un, the un informed or uneducated on that. So I would love. I mean, the poem is like I'm sitting with the poem. So I have lots of questions. But what I would love to try to do with you if you're willing is you had this beautiful definition of grief. Lots and lots of emotion, deep loss, sorrow, broken heart, heavy energy and a gratefulness. If you're able, I would love to sort of try to see where that definition is in your journey. Like at what point were you starting to feel grateful after having this stroke? Do you see what I'm saying? Like, so what did your grief process look like within that story? You could even just a few insights would be interesting. Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, let me go back to when I got home. I had a whole bunch of therapies went back to work six weeks after the stroke, which I think about it now. And I'm like, oh my gosh, but I think I did it because I wanted to get better and sort of like living in denial. But I wanted to get back to where I was before, which thinking back, that was totally unrealistic, but I was trying. So I went back to work and I went back to work for about four years and considered retiring. But at that point, like six weeks, or I'm sorry, like 18 weeks after I was considering retiring, I was, life became more stressful at work. And I was feeling no improvements as far as my brain went. I was having trouble with memory for getfulness. I just had trouble. And it felt like my brain was turning to mush. My world became smaller and smaller. And the big thing was my loss and confidence. And I had never experienced that before. So that's when I hit the wall and I said, I don't know where to go. I need to do something. I need help. And as I wanted to be better, I wanted to be normal. And I had no real plan. So at that point, I was, I felt like I needed to surrender and had to surrender so that I could get better. I had to ask myself, okay, who am I now? I know who I was. And I was very happy being the way I was. But I knew I had to change. And I needed to figure out who peg was. So there was a big change. And the big change was really magnificent because let me go back to my husband Mike who works at the clinical center. Part time because he does the vital program, the volunteer income tax assistance. He sort of directs that. So he was at the clinic and he was talking to Caravansson who is the executive director. And just asking, so what goes on at this center? And Carav was talking about all the different therapies and, and at one point, she said, oh, yeah, they have a facial clinic and Mike just open his eyes. He's not wanting to not be able to talk. He's like, but my wife has aphasia. And I'm sure I don't know I wasn't there, but Carav must have been. And I think she basically said, you need to get hooked up with Teresa Alexander. So so Mike called Teresa. We got together. And she was an angel, absolutely. And she was so kind, so welcoming, so didn't make me feel uncomfortable. She was just just wonderful. And she finally said, you know, I think, I think, I think you can get some help there. And I said, OK. And we left and we sat at Belver Square to get something to eat. And he ordered. And when he walked back, I had tears in my eyes. And he said, what's wrong? It's wrong. And I said, nothing's wrong. This is great. Because I can finally meet other people just like me. And I know that was really the turning point. And I see that the clinic as, and I've said it before, it's like a sacred safe place that every time I walk into that, that building, I just feel taken care of like I've been hugged. I could talk to anybody, but I just as soon as I walk in, it's like, yes, you know. So, Teresa also said, if you like testing, you don't have to be tested. But if you would like to have testing, then we can sort of tell you, you will be assessed. And I said, OK, so I did that. And it was very helpful. And I wrote the other, the other poem I wrote. Um, is called three goals. And it goes like this. Hope laced with flimsy confidence. I held, held my breath and opened the door. Standing alone, the cavernous well was standing before me. Knowing living water resided down there somewhere. The room full of faces overwhelmed me. Sweet students gave me their findings with a soft touch. But too much talk, trying to absorb the terms, the issues of who I am now. I desperately miss who I was, mostly. Three goals were determined by the cheery gang of overlookers. Three goals seemed like an eternity to achieve, with a thousand goals in waiting. Vulnerable, courageous, I listened. Determined, yet terrified, I listened. Until I could hear no more, my tired mind only registered three goals. They asked, do you have any questions? Then I exhale. So, um, yeah. Oh my gosh, Peg, your poetry is incredible. I mean, it's so poignant. I just, I want everybody to hear it because I think the students, you know, you, you're very complimentary. The sweet students with their soft touch and at the same time, it's so much information. Right? Oh, I was just like, I'm like, questions. Oh my gosh. I mean, it's, it's so powerful. Like the message that you just shared of just this feeling of overwhelm, listening, trying to listen, but you can't hear it anymore. And yet, um, at the same time, I love that you said you're desperately missing who you were. Right? So there's like active grief as they're sharing these test results, which are hard to process, even if you know the language, right? Like it's, it's just so much information. I think you do a really beautiful job articulating what that feels like. And to, you know, the three goals. Yeah, really. I mean, just the poems themselves display the multiple layers of grief that you're experiencing, right? You've mentioned in both poems as well as just in conversation, this, who am I now? Right? This, this grieving of your old self to your new self. I'm starting to understand. Yeah. I'm not that old person anymore. Yeah. And so that's a piece of it. And then as Brian said, it's like there are small episodes of grief that are related to all the things that are attached to who you might be now, right? Not being able to take in all that information and quickly not understanding this or not being able. It's, it's just like you, I don't know, it's like this loop of grief that keeps nothing at you, right? That kept. And it's its acceptance. Exactly. And seeing things for what, what is real? Yeah. I feel like that also is so beautifully in my humble opinion, pay connects to our earlier conversation around mess, which is like the extent to which we are willing to accept mess. The complication, the complexity, the irony is that not cleaning up is what moves you, what moves you forward, right? Starts the healing. So I hope you published those. Yeah, I hope so too. Something because I think even the feet, the two folks that we've already talked to about their experience would just based on what they've said. They would just love the opportunity to hear your stories and your narratives around this experience, I think. Yeah, I think so too. I think I just want to circle back to the uniqueness of your journey, which was for those six weeks, you went back to work. Yes. And you were like, I am doing this and I am going to get back to that. And you said it was so hard and I was determined. And then it was like the wall or something happened where you just had this moment of realization and you described like the brain being mush and your decrease confidence and like all these things that were emerging. And then it was like, you know, I think that's a really unique element of your journey to try to jump right back a lot of. You know, maybe there are phasia is more significant such that they can't like they could not go back right away. And as always teetering, I was always teetering and just waiting, just doing the best I could. Like I was sort of drowning. But I knew I was still, I mean, I was still able to swim, but it was, it was very, very difficult and it was very stressful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting. And then, and then your description of so that feeling of desperation and lost confidence and confusion and pain and all of that. Like your words were the sacred safe place feeling like you're just being taken care of at loyal. It's like I can just feel the relief in that even if you haven't addressed these goals and you haven't had the testing yet just to be in a place where you have that sense. Yes of being seen and understood it sounds like there was so much relief. But that's it was like being held being held incredible. Yeah, they just create the space at the LCC. This place of just feeling safe and held. Teresa, who she allowed me to create meditations because I was interested in she said, well, I don't need, you know, she just, well, why don't you do that? I'm like, okay. But she was, she is beyond words. She's just a marvelous person and the grad students. She's the best in every single. And I think it's like I'm just a huge fan of the students who are what I said earlier, they work. And we lose her. Thanks. So they are unbelievable. We've been able to build a community just from being stroke survivors or or traumatic brain injury people. It's it's like a given, you know, you don't need to explain anything. We're all going through the same thing. So to have this space is incredible. And the concern that they have and the empathy, all of that, it's just incredible. It's just really incredible. Oh, sorry. Now I was just going to say, I have the, I have the LCC. I also have gone back to supporting because I can't forget my supporters, family of and friends, of course. But the one beyond beyond is Mike who he's the one that is the rock. He's the one that takes care of me, even if I don't need it, and I push him away. But he is the one that, that is the true star in anything because there's no way I could have done this without him. I just wouldn't have been able to survive. So he is my, my North star. Incredible and like the most profound love and connection and, you know, probably aren't words really to describe. Peg, as you talk about your support network, Mike, the community of the Loyal Clinical Centers. It just sort of naturally led to belonging in my mind. You know, Carrie and I, that was our first line of research was belonging. We sort of iterated over the years and landed in grief this season. And we're so glad that we have because we've gotten to talk to incredible people like you. But we're curious, what was your experience of belonging through this aphasia grief journey? It was being in, I mean, I had individual counseling with with the clinicians. So that was one on one kind of belonging. No. that they were always looking for the best way to do things and me getting better and better. And the other was being in groups. So I've been book club, ESG, COG, all the different groups. I did it for two years, still doing it as a peer mentor. And anytime if two or more gathered in the same frame of mind, that's exactly where we were. So it was safe, it was true. I don't think anybody was ever embarrassed by things that happened. And it was it was synchronistic, is that the word? And it was just a beautiful experience. So Brianna mentioned in the intro that you currently are a peer mentor and you've mentioned that in a wellness coordinator. So when you think about maybe those roles or even other ways that you you know volunteer or engage, what impact has your experience with stroke hat on how you show up in these spaces? Like I'm just curious, how has this impacted your work? What I learned was first to be present. Don't live in the past, don't live in the future, try to be as present as you can be, which is really hard. So it was being present. The other thing was being more grateful than RUM. I try to be an incredibly grateful for people, for nature, for my community, my family's nature. So that the second or third would be being vulnerable. You have no choice but to be vulnerable when you're in this space. And that is a plus. That is a plus. And then the last would be being humble. When you're making lots and lots and lots of mistakes, I have to be humble. Well, I need to apologize, probably, you know, I just have to be humble, which is probably the least trait that I had in the past. But now it's one of my best traits, humble. So those are the things that I've learned through this experience, being with the people that I'm with. Incredible. We're curious, Peg. I think you've done a really beautiful job sharing what has been supportive to you in this journey. Just looking at from the flip side, what makes it harder? What makes this journey harder for you? The only time it feels harder is when I want to go back to who I was, which is kind of crazy. So I don't go there very often. I actually rarely do that because of all the lessons that I've learned. It just doesn't make sense to go backwards. It's not helpful. It's just, it's not good. But if I, anytime that happens, I pretty much turn it off because it's like, you know, this is pointless. And I like who I am now. Yeah. Was that a gradual learning for you or was that something? How did that, so you rarely go back? It looked like it took a minute to think of how to answer this question. Because I didn't answer one of those questions because I thought, well, that doesn't apply to me. Yeah, which is, I mean, that's profound in and of itself, right? I think that's incredible. I'm curious, you know, it's been several years since you've had your stroke, right? So has it been, um, has that been consistent since you sort of made that shift to the LCC that you've been thinking, okay, I'm going to be the new me and I'm going to develop this new me. And I actually like this person. I guess because I was able, you know, the big thing from the very beginning was that loss of confidence, which was so unfamiliar for me. But once I started rebuilding my confidence, then that's what made the difference. That's what made the difference. Well, I'm just thinking about the confidence piece, right? It feels like that was in the midst of that, who, who am I struggle, right? That that confidence was just feeling unmoored potentially to, to a solid identity or part of your identity, not the whole identity, but part of it. Yeah, and I think, um, I think like, let's say you're learning a new sport, you don't, you don't begin knowing how to use a little prosthick and how to take shots, but with each time you use it, and you're building confidence. Yeah. And that's that's the difference. That's how you can play the sport because you've built, you've practiced, you've worked hard, you build passion, and you become more confident. Yeah. I like the way you put that peg because I don't think like a lot of things we do. I don't think we talk about identity in that way. We talk about sports, we talk about music, drama, whatever it is, but there really is a growing into and practicing with different parts of who you are, right? You don't just like voila and I'm here. And so when you have such a significant trauma in your life, you have put in the work, right? And so that that low confidence feels like maybe it was a, a liminal space, right? You were in that in between, and sort of working it through. And so I love how you're articulating this because it really, I like to sort of get into those in between and sort of doing it all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're seeing what's available. Yep. You're looking back and saying, no, I'm going to go there. Yes. And then you take the jump with confidence. Yes. You're able to do what you need to do. So I love that you, I feel like you sort of zoomed us into that pivotal moment, that liminality. And I think that's really powerful for people to think about. So yeah, thanks for that. I know it was Brian. I know Brian was going to ask this, but I'm going to jump in because I feel like it's related. I feel like you have so many wonderful nuggets to share with people around your experience. If you, if you were able to give someone a piece of advice around grief, around aphasia, what kind of advice would you give? Well, I heard a couple things down. Okay. I love lists. Yeah, that's great. The first one is, appreciate the words I can say in the very beginning. So I may not be able to speak them all, but I'm able to say this. The second would be practice self-care. The third would be don't deny what's real. The fourth would be express feelings, at least to someone else. And find the lessons. When I was, when we were going through COVID and things had settled down, I would say to people, so what have you learned through this experience? Because, and people would always, whatever they were going through, which was really interesting, because I'd love to hear what people, what experience they have and how they handled it. And I feel the same way with all the things that I've learned, with greatfulness, humbleness, all that kind of thing. So yeah, it's, I think, it's really important to figure, don't just let it go by without being introspective and think about why it is important. - Yeah, thank you for that. I was, as I was listening, I think this is true of all of them, but this idea of appreciate the words I can say, that is obviously very specific to an aphasic experience. And if we sort of zoom out, we've talked to so many people with different kinds of grief and I think you could say, they would say appreciate and then fill in the blank, right, with the accan, whether we talked to someone who was a collegiate athlete who had an injury and she, I remember her talking about being able to appreciate the moment to slow down to take, right? And so I think everyone we've spoken to, that sort of appreciative lens could be applied in some way to their very unique grief experience. - That's a good point, yeah. - That's a really, yeah, I really love that idea. I also think this advice is good for folks like other people's Mike, right? So the team around the person who's Asia, when you said appreciate the words, I can say my perspective on that was for others to appreciate the words that you can say as well. You know, if you've only got a handful, let's at least make good use of those, right? And tap that for what they are and hope that they grow. - Yeah. - But for others to encourage the person with aphasia or person grieving for another reason to practice self-care, right? And you know, don't deny what's real to me, that comes back to acknowledging the mess that we talked about from the start of the conversation. - Yeah, yeah. - So, yeah, I mean, one of the things, you know, even though you're the new peg and you've got all these other things, you also said that you've been like to write poetry since you were 20 or something, you know, since you were a lot younger. And so there's also an element of, if you can do what you love to do, right? And what you've always loved to do. And it's so awesome that with aphasia, you still are able to articulate. I mean, your vocabulary is so rich and you're so able to access that experience through these words. And I love that you were able to hold on to poetry through that time and even use it as a tool to articulate the mess and to describe where you are. And I'm with Carrie, I think that needs to be published, whether it's in a pamphlet at the LCC or my preference would be beyond that. Because I just think you have a lot of wisdom and warmth about you that would sort of extend that LCC hug to people, you know, just even reading your words. - Yeah, I'm taught. - Yeah, that's one of my goals. So beyond the three, but that's my goals to write about the experience. - Yeah. - And who knows, maybe have other people do the same, you know? Have a booklet with everybody else's work in there too. - Yeah, sounds great. - Yeah, I think that's a great goal. - Yeah, absolutely. - It's them. Well, this was fantastic. We've loved talking with you so much. Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you would like to share today? - Well, it's been a privilege. And you have this space for people to be able to express themselves, which is really a beautiful thing. You mentioned that you finished a book, and so the both of you finishing the book? - Yes. - I don't think you gave me the, the, the, the book of it. I would like to have that. And also, and, and this is in writing. And you use the word nugget. My question for you is, what nuggets have you latched onto through this grief and belonging series? The two of you. - Mm. Love that. No one ever, never flips it and asks us to. - Yeah. I love that. - I think what I'm latching onto, and I'm, and I say I'm latching onto it. It doesn't mean I have clarity, but I'm latching onto it is we are really wrestling with this inner weaving of grief and belonging. We are noticing that the level of belonging can create its own grief. And when grief happens, it creates low belonging, right? So sometimes folks are talking about the grief felt isolating, I felt unseen. And so immediately it's like a severing, even with the relationship, there's a severing of a belonging. And, you know, so yeah, so I'm, I'm really latching on it every time I hear a story. I'm reminded of how interconnected they are. And when I hear stories about, I gotta go see this clinical. I'm a part of loyal and I've never seen this clinical setting that everyone talks about. When I hear you describe that pig, it feels like it's a bastion of belonging. Yeah. Everything you describe, even when you, 'cause I wrote down, you said sacred, safe space, I feel seen, a warm hug. So that's part of belonging, right? Being seen. The other piece that I love that you said is that you were invited to create meditations. Yes. And the other aspect of belonging that we have researched is that belonging isn't just about seeing the person. Belonging is this idea of that the space is forever changed because you're in it now. And we find ways for you to contribute. And I'm like, that's exactly what this clinical center is doing. (laughs) So, and Teresa is a master in that. Just to be given that opportunity. Right. Wow. Yeah. And she didn't know me from Adam, but she just took the chance. Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah. So she saw you and then she worked to figure out how to invite your gifts to change the space. To me, that is like, that is the essence of belonging and everything that Brandon and I have seen from stories. So that's what I'm, that's a long answer. That's what I'm grappling with is that connection. Yeah, and Peg, we grapple with it. I mean, we are fighting slogging through papers, trying to write this in a way that makes sense to us and would make sense to others. I think it's been, Carrie, I don't know, maybe the hardest thing we've taken on in terms of writing and just because it's huge. And so, where Carrie talked about the belonging piece, I guess I'll sit to answer your question with the grief piece a little bit. I mean, we, I'm a speech-language pathologist by training Carrie Years ago was an economist, right? And now is an educator. So neither of us are psychologists. We don't come from backgrounds of grief. We walked into this because it, it just felt right and sort of circumstances in our lives lent itself to curiosity, really. Like, I wonder what this is. We were seeing maybe some connections with grief. And one of the things that I have learned really through this podcast and through our research is the tremendous breadth and depth of grief. And that I think every person you walk by in the street has something going on. And it boggles my mind that it is so omnipresent and yet to use your words from the very start, we have to hide it, we have to clean it up, we push it away, because that's kind of what we're told to do. And yet it's like the most human thing that everybody's experiencing. And not everybody experiences aphasia. But my daughter, our oldest, is going to graduate high school. I'm like, I could cry at the drop of a hat about what was and what is and all of that. There's grief in that, right? Even though it's what we want and it's all good and all of that. And so I think the stories that we've heard which are so rich and so diverse, our season, we've talked with people who are dealing with awful death, like really, really profound loss in that respect. And people who have had illnesses themselves and who have cared for other people who are ill, people who are parents to children with disabilities, and also neurotypical children, right? So like the juxtaposition of that, I mean, there's so much to this. And I think that's part of our challenge is that it's so big. And yet because it's so big, we have to talk about it. Yeah, there are common threads. Oh, yeah. It's OK. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So we're trying to write papers on this, but really it likely would be another book at some point, just because you need sort of the real estate in the pages to be able to, I think, unpack it a bit. Great. Yeah. I love that you asked us a question, Peg. No one's ever asked us. No. It's a weird-- I love talking to people and finding their stories. I mean, we just-- Us too. That's why we started. I'm so thankful in all the way they operate. And yeah. Yeah. That's exactly how we feel. We feel so fortunate that we've been able to not only do this just to meet people, but we're able to integrate it into our profession, which is just a lovely-- gift. And being able to speak with folks like yourself, like again, I'm not in this area at all. It's just been, it's just been a real joy to hear these stories and learn about different experiences. So we're just, you guys are doing a great job. Oh, well, thanks, Faggot. Well, we're just grateful. Look, you talked about the need for vulnerability. We have asked so much of our guests this season and we invited our guests to share so much and the courage and vulnerability and humility that folks have been willing to share has just been overwhelming and astounding. So we have so much gratitude as well for everybody. So you want to tell Peg the title of the book and where it came from? Oh, yeah, yeah, so it's right here. Can you see it in the. Tell me this. Yeah, tell me this. Yeah, so I, we started this journey forever ago. I, my grandmother, who passed away in 2019, in November, right before the pandemic, when I, she had many, many grandchildren, many, many great grandchildren. And we were all, of course, like all families different. And I remember growing up that when we would come over one of us, she was just a great listener. And something that she always said was, I would share something about my day and she'd say, well, tell me this. Asking for more and wanting to learn and wanting to hear and really leaning in. And so I had said to Brianna, I think that's what I'm going to call the podcast. And perfect. So the podcast was born and it started out really to honor her memory because I was really, you know, it was a hard loss, right? I was experiencing some grief and so I thought this is a great way to honor her and share stories. And then it just evolved. And, you know, Brianna willingly joined. And we've been doing it together ever since, which has been lovely. Yeah, that's been awesome. Is it out? Can I get it? It is out. But, you know, what? Let Brianna, we have our publisher gave us a discount code. So let Brianna send you the discount code so you can get it. She'll, you can send the link, right? Brianna? Yeah, it's on Amazon, but we have a discount code. We prefer. Yeah, so use the discount code. So yeah, so this has been, this has been fantastic. And I know folks who will listen because brands getting feedback from folks in the aphasia community that they're enjoying this. So I am certain that they're going to enjoy the stories you shared and the nuggets you provided and these beautiful poems that you've created. So yeah, so thank you so much for being here. Peg, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. It's been an honor. It really has. All right, everybody. Well, this has been another episode of Tell Me This and we hope you have a great day. Do you want to simplify your school's technology, save teachers time and improve students performance on state assessments? You can do it all, but don't waste another minute. Head straight to ixl.com/be to learn how I excels research proven teaching and learning platform can help you achieve all of these goals. That's ixl.com/be