Season 4 - Episode 1 "Lee"

You're listening to Men Unscripted, where regular guys share honest, anonymous stories about body image and the pressures that shape us. I'm Aaron Flores, a dietician, coach, and writer. I'm here to make room for the conversations most of us were never taught to have. Beyond this podcast, I work with folks directly, I offer one-on-one coaching, a bi-weekly men's group, myself pace course, your body unscripted, and a weekly sub-stack where I share tools, stories, and props. If you want to support or you're just curious, all of the links are in the shown notes. Join the group, then roll in the course, or subscribe to the newsletter to stay connected. With that, we'll transition into today's interview. Today Lee shares candidly about his relationship with his body and the pressures that come with it. Let's begin and hear from Lee. Alright, thanks everyone for joining me for another episode of Men Unscripted. I'm really excited. I get to talk to Lee today. Lee, thanks for coming on the show and taking a really vulnerable step to share your story with us. How would you like to introduce yourself to the audience? I'd love to hear a little bit about your introduction. Well, thank you very much for having me and glad to be here today. I realize that things that are hard to talk about are often things that are really good and important to talk about, so just glad to have the opportunity. I'm a dietician by career, and so that shaped a lot of my life and relationship with food. I think really it was a lot of my poor relationship with food that ended up getting me to becoming a dietician in the first place. I'm also, I play the drums, love to play the drums, I'm married, my wife, and we have a couple of cats, and that's a big part of my life, work, drums, cats, and family. And repeat. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, cool. Awesome. Well, I definitely want to get to the dietician piece. I mean, listen, you got two dudes here who are dieticians, and I'm sure there's a lot to unpack there. But before we do that, why was doing something like this important deal? Why did you want to come forward and share your story? Yeah, so the way I got introduced to you was at the dietician conference, and it's a weird place to be, it's this kind of odd going to these different talks, and things were just not really resonating with me. And then I went into the session that you did with the, with the other guys, and it tore me up, and it was just so interesting. I was trying to reflect like what was it in particular, and I think the thing that first got me was you said, we need to be more comfortable with our own body image issues. And that's just been something that I have struggled with so deeply over the years, and just to have you and the guys up there talking just openly, and I just start crying, and it really struck a chord with me, and I think it strikes a chord with a lot of people, but a lot of times as guys are just in general, it's a scary thing to talk about, to think about. Yeah, no, absolutely, and it's exactly why I started this show, is because no one is talking about it, and we need to, but I think also just like what I've learned in having these conversations is how many unique stories there are, like, yeah, there's struggles, but there's so many intricacies and nuances, and a lot of really touching things within each person's story, so absolutely like we're not talking about it enough, and it's why we're here, you know, I'll just sort of say like when you introduced yourself to me after, it was one of those moments where I was like, I think I'm, well, not I think, like I am so fucking happy and proud of doing what I'm doing, and that's not to like, I'm not saying that to blow my ego up or anything, I'm just saying, I think part of the reason I became a dietician was to help people, right, and to like do some meaningful work to help people, you know, just to help people, period, and you know, it was a moment like that, really raw and vulnerable, and saying like, holy shit, like this, this might really, this might have really helped someone, and I felt so like seen, and I felt really valued, and so I just am really grateful that you came up and gave me a hug, and I couldn't even, right, we didn't even really speak, you know, but yeah, I think it meant a lot to me, like it touched me, I know Stephen, my co-presenter, felt the same way, yeah, yeah, it was huge, and it was like, as I was sitting there listening, I was like, I know I have to go up, and you know, say thank you, but at the same time, like I knew I just wasn't going to be able to speak, and so, it just could be a motion, which is, you know, I was right there in my chest, and yeah, yeah, yeah, but it was special, and it's, you know, I can really relate to what you said, too, like becoming a dietician, same, like I want to help people, I want to be a positive impact in people's lives, and there are those times when we're like, oh wow, you know, I had, and again, like you said, not out of pride, but just out of like, I had an opportunity to have a positive impact on that person, that makes me feel good, because I see maybe I'm, they're going to be hurting less, or they're going to be feeling better going forward, yeah, yeah, for sure, and, you know, I can almost guarantee that someone's going to hear this, and you're going to help someone just by doing this, so yeah, so thanks. Absolutely. Well, let's hop in the delorean time machine and go back a little bit, I mean, I definitely want to talk about sort of what led you to be a dietician, but before that, like I'm curious like, can you like recall how young you were, or like when you started to notice body image being an issue, or like a focus on bodies, or a focus on food, like I'm curious when you started to notice that. Absolutely. So it goes like way, way back to probably like kindergarten realizing that well, I was born big, like I was just a big baby, I was long and big, and so I was always a big person. And when I was in kindergarten, I remember, I was eating a lot, like I would, I remember like on a birthday, I was like, I'm going to have two pieces of birthday cake, and it's like, you know, I'm sure I wasn't hungry for two pieces of birthday cake, but it was like, I was just a big eater, and my dad was like, he would always talk about that he was eating a lot, but then he was going to go workout, he was going to burn it off. So like this was like kind of being instilled in me, like, oh, you eat big, but then you have to go work it off, or you have to, you know, kind of, you have to earn it to eat it type of thing. And then I had this real distinct memory, and I think it was probably around that same time I was maybe just a little bit older, but I was at my grandparents house, and my grandpa was talking on the phone to somebody, and he said, he was saying that my sister and I were there visiting, and you know, they must ask how they were, and he said, oh, they're as large as ever. And like, that's, I didn't even know what the word "lord" meant, but that like, like, planted that seed in me that like, and I don't even know how I figured out what what "lord" is, but that is stuck with me for 40 years, well, maybe like 35 years now of, oh, I'm fat, and that's a bad thing. So I started getting those messages from family, and then being big, I got teased a lot. I switched schools right after kindergarten, and I remember kids going around and saying "bucks got a big butt," and stuff like that. So like, it was really instilled in me like, I'm big, I'm fat, and that's a bad thing, and I need to do something about it. And yeah, yeah, I think what people don't realize is how many dudes are getting messages about their bodies at such a young age, and so kindergarten is really, you know, young, you know, and think about like just the mindset of a kindergarten, but kindergarten or so in that age, and yeah, sort of realizing at that point that fat is bad, and that people are going to critique it, and people are going to judge it, and seeing adults especially like have this approach, mentality that like, I got to fix my eating, you know, and that really stands out to me in your young experience. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and like people, so like my grandparents who are supposed to be people that are, you know, care about me, love me, and are going to watch out for me and take care of me, but to get that message from them and to get the message from my dad, like, you're, there's something wrong with you, and so yeah, he would tell me, oh, go take a lap around the orchard, you know, you got to go exercise and stuff, so just kind of getting all those messages. not good enough and you have to do something to change yourself to be, you know, how I took it was to be worthy, you know, to earn the affection. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a powerful example of how that starts at something like that worthiness, right? And wanting to be loved. And and this is the only way I know to sort of or one of the ways I know to like earn it. Yeah. It's it builds a deep brain groove for sure. So as you sort of got older, like how did that, how did that brain groove deepen as you sort of continued to navigate sort of late childhood adulthood? Yeah. There were definitely a couple shifts. So in junior high, I was growing so I was getting taller. And then I was I was fairly active. I was really into skateboarding at the time. And so I kind of kind of link lengthened and leaned out probably for the first time in my life, which I mean, as a natural thing, I think a lot of guys we hit puberty and we get taller, we get some more muscle, whatever. And you know, there's just those natural changes. So that that was a big change. And I started getting different messages from people like I still saw myself as fat, but getting messages from people that like there's another thing like there's it's funny how there's these certain things that like stick in your mind over the years. So it's up my friends mom said something about me being athletic. And that was so different from my you how I saw myself. And so that was that was like like part of it was like I didn't believe it, but part of it was like wow, like people's you know, some people are seeing me in a different way. So kind of having a little shifts like that. I started running more. I I yeah, so I got a little bit more into working out. And then there there's a pivot that happened. So right after that, but it just just another like real distinct thing that sticks out to me is like I remember it says back in junior high still. So getting more active. I gone out for basketball. And at the end of practice the first day, they said, okay, we're going to scrimmage its shirts and skins. And like I was mortified. And I was like, I cannot be here. And I was like, I need to quit basketball immediately. And I had to go talk to the coach and be like, I'm quitting. And he said, why? And I said, I wasn't honest about it. I said, I'm just hating it. I loved basketball. You know, I love playing basketball. But I was like, there is no way in hell that I'm going to take my shirt off in front of all these guys. And so you start kind of in like with swimming too over the years, I wouldn't go swimming, or I'd wear a shirt if I was going to swim. So it's like you miss out on elements of life because of, you know, how I felt like I wasn't good enough. Yeah. Oh, it really that resonates so deeply. I remember avoiding all sorts of like friendly sports because of shirts and skins. Yep. And like, you know, I like, you know, you sort of pick in teams or whatever. And I was like, please put me on the shirts because I'm not playing. If I'm a skin, like, and oh, that, like, I have like this visceral sort of reaction to remembering that panic. Yeah. And definitely feeling that panic also. Yeah, like mortifying like I can't do it. I got to get out of here. Yes, absolutely. And I think that the key thing that I think you're highlighting too is that you love basketball. Yeah. You know, and how many times in our lives do we not do something or avoid something we love? Right. Because of our body or how we feel in our body or in the fear of that. Like, I think that is such a unifying theme in so many folks. And it just, it also brings so much sadness to say, like, I'm not going to do the thing I love. Right. You know, because of this. Yeah, because of that fear and because of, yeah, what people might might say or think about me, yeah, it's huge. And that's that's that can affect so many areas in our life. And yeah, not even trying to do things because of that that fear. Did you ever go back to playing? Not basketball, no. No, it was in high school. I don't know why. I didn't, I think I didn't feel like I fit in with that crowd either. Like, I was kind of like, I wasn't, I didn't fit in with any crew necessarily in high school. I didn't click, but I was also like pretty good with most people. So, but that actually is another huge part of my whole life. And being is doing whatever I could to not stand out in a negative way, to not get teased, to not be, you know, to put myself in a vulnerable position. Yeah. So flying under the radar, 100% yeah, not standing out. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, high school's rough, man. Like, I don't know. I don't, junior high high school. Like, I don't know. Like, junior high was a different level of suckyness than, yeah, then high school high school was a little bit better. But I, yeah, I mean, I'm thankful. I had a great group of friends. Nice. But like, it was rough. Like, high schools in junior high are rough, like, just emotionally and trying to nap. Yeah. So I can definitely empathize with just like, I don't want to, I don't want to stand out in any way. Nope. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. I really wanted to homeschool. I kept my bag my mom over the years. Yeah. And she was, that I think it cost money, like for the books and stuff. And we were, we're pretty poor. And so she was like, I'm sorry, but we can't. So I just, I sucked it up. But I did drop out after my junior year. I did not finish at the regular high school. It was getting better in a lot of ways. But, um, but I ended up moving and did, like, I did get to homeschool for my senior year. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think about the coping in that, right? It's like, just I, I'm not going to, you know, I can't, I'd rather just avoid it in all the ways. I'll still do it on my own. But like, yeah, I can't, can't be in this environment. Yeah. And I, and I see a lot of ways that that's really affected me where even like today, like, you know, to current times, like, I'll be at work and I'll need to talk to a doctor about something. And it's really hard for me a lot of times to ask to like call a doctor or whatever. And to, it's hard for me to ask for help with a lot of things. And yeah, it's hard to put myself in positions that feel vulnerable. Even if they're not, even if it's really, it's, it's pretty trivial. And, and, you know, in the scheme of things, it can be really hard for me. Yeah. I noticed it still holds me back in some ways. Yeah. Do you, do you have, well, how do you feel like ideals around like masculinity have impacted that in addition to like the body image piece? Yeah. It's, you know, we were talking about earlier, like being dieticians and being two guys to dudes that are dieticians is, is odd because it's, we're a minority in the world of dieticians. There just aren't that many guys that are, that are dieticians. And that's been a weird thing to kind of come to grips with. For me, like masculinity has always been tricky. I grew up with my parents divorced right before I went into first grade. And so it was my mom and my sister. My mom literally had a salon in our house. So like a joke that I grew up in a salon. So I was around ladies all the time. And like it's always, that's always been pretty easy for me to like fit in with groups of, of women, being in school for dietetics. It's usually it was me and, you know, 15, 20, 28 women. Maybe two, maybe two guys. Yeah. So it's just kind of the nature of it. So that, that's always been pretty easy for me. And I think like in some ways I, I, I have like some, you know, feminine, like, like I'm very comfortable with, with my femininity and like, with air, you know, elements of that. And actually in a lot of ways, it's been harder for me to really step into masculinity in a way that felt like authentic and in a way that felt maybe non-threatening. But I have like, I really got into lifting weights. And like that was a way where I felt like, oh, that was like a manly thing to do. But it's been a weird one for me to, to kind of navigate over the years. Yeah. Well, a lot resonates with me in my story as well. Like I, my parents divorce around the same age. Yeah. My dad moved back to Mexico. It's where he's from. For most of my childhood, moved back when I was in high school. But I was raised by my mom. And, you know, my, and my mom's side of the family is very like matriarchal. Like it's very like, you know, that the, the strong characters in that family story are, are women. And same thing like I felt really comfortable in going back to school and becoming a dietician and being surrounded by a lot of women. And same thing with eating disorders, right? Like they're in the field is very female dominant. And then you're right. Like I agree. I, it feels very comforting. I notice too. Like I don't sometimes know how to show up and be like stereotypically masculine. So, you know, feeling very awkward. And I will say that what I've learned, especially over the past, like, maybe 10 years or so is the dudes that I am friends with are are similar to me in that like we can talk about sort of like stereotypical masculine things. I'm a huge sports fan so like we can talk about sports and we could whatever but like and we can also like be really vulnerable and I think like what I've tried to unlearn or try to reckon with is that like the what masculinity we think should look like is very different than what it actually is and how much masculinity is about feeling and being vulnerable and you know like that's you know these are things that are that make us masculine as well. Yeah yeah totally it's the a lot of what like is out there as like being masculine like it's very unattractive to me and I'm totally with you like being vulnerable having honest conversations with people hitting on emotional things and having that depth has always been so important to me and having real relationships. That's one another thing it's been hard for me is like where I would get really connected with somebody I've always been pretty introverted like couple close friends is kind of always the way that I've been and so I would want to have these deep connections these deep friendships and then this dish has popped in my head too there's another thing that I've struggled with over the years is like I would have somebody we're tight you know we're buddies we're hanging out all the time and then all of a sudden we're not anymore like they win they're hanging out with other people and I think that also tied in with all that other stuff like well there must be something not good enough about me because we're not friends anymore did I did I mess it up or whatever so that yeah yeah also part of my feeling like I didn't have the self-worth. Yeah yeah I get that and I get that for sure. I want to I want to go back a little bit to you know you talked a lot about sort of like the body image piece and I'm curious sort of like as you sort of said like alluded to in your intro right is you know what was going through all of this sort of like body image things like how well how would you describe your relationship with food when you were younger and especially like finding diatetics like how did you find diatetics. Yeah so when I was a little I remember like so we'll say like grade school maybe into junior high I remember like distinctly like eating fast on purpose so I could eat more like there was always this thing like you had to clean your plate I was like with whenever I was with my dad and he would like maybe eat stuff that was terrible and like I remember like gagging on a cheese log one time and I was like this is terrible and but you know so some of that some of it just those you don't listen to your body for how much you eat you eat until the plates clean so so a lot of that a lot of what I would eat would not necessarily be like a balanced you know way of eating that we learn about eventually so yeah lots lots of process foods grew up on Costco muffins and croissants and things of red vines and pop tarts and and all that so but when I was getting at the high school I started to get more interested in nutrition and I had a there was there was another kind of pivotal thing that happened I so I was real steeped in like church culture when I was growing up and I fasted one time for like 21 days like a liquid fast and I lost weight people were like noticing and like oh yeah you're really losing weight they're worried about you know my health or whatever but also I was like well I'm losing weight so I think that kind of like was another little twist of the the knife or whatever like kind of changing changing my relationship a bit with you because you're talking so usually I was just like stuffing myself and whatnot and now I'm doing this thing where I'm not listening to my body and not eating when I'm hungry so again it's just like like making that void bigger and bigger of being disconnected from hunger and fullness and then and then in college is when I started setting nutrition super interesting and I did a diet analysis project and so we analyze our food put it all into this old school diet analysis software and it was the name of that software do you remember oh my gosh diet analysis pro right yeah I remember yep I totally remember that yeah totally it was like literally like on a disc yes yeah so so that flipped another switch and I think that was that was a really big turning point because then I started counting my calories like all the time and then my relationship with food turned into that it was it was counting the calories and I started losing a bunch of weight I was running I was working out more and that that was what really kicked off in eating disorder essentially anorexia at first it's pretty straight up anorexia and then it over time it kind of flopped in a little bit more like binge eating disorder and kind of as I was in this trying to recover it took a turn into more of the binging and purging for a while so yeah that was yeah that just the relationship with food was was pretty you know it was not great early on and then it got way worse over time yeah yeah did well uh some some highlights for me in that are um again this is really like for all the other dietitians that are listening right maybe not applying to a whole lot of other folks but like seeing how much what we are trained in or like the ways in which we're trained yep are so triggering like like learning about food all day yep and like what like you're literally learning all day what you should be doing and what you shouldn't be doing yep and that messes with your head like it really does like like it doesn't knowing more does not help right knowing more does not help what it comes of this um and you know I also think about like um the ways in which fasting is is um uh the way in which like fasting is encouraged or talked about um again really triggering for folks and yes I get the spiritualness of it and I get like why you know listen I'm I'm Jewish and there's opportunities to fast for holidays yeah I don't anymore but like I get it and I know that some folks are hearing about it and being like oh here's my way that it's it's going to be okay if I do it no one's going to care right right or no one's going to worry and and so I guess it leads to the question of like did as you're going through all this did anyone ever notice did anyone ever worry like did anyone like sort of where anyone's outside of you like red flags going up and saying like hey Lee like I think I think something's going on here yeah just just my mom is the only one that really stands out so I when I came back to college I moved in with my dad again and that was a shit show uh in so many ways like it's my mental health was trash um I've always I've got a lot of depression in my family especially my mom's side and that was the first time that it did it really hit me where I was aware okay this I'm depressed for sure um and so I think my dad noticed eventually I mean he had to just because I did not look the same anymore and and he would just be like oh you should eat some more type of thing like maybe not exactly in those words but essentially that but then I would go see my mom like on breaks and stuff and she was worried for sure and so she talked to me and she was trying to she's pretty passive like she is of extremely loving person really cares but but pretty passive so the fact that she was even talking to me about it was a lot for her that she she noticed enough and she was worried enough to engage with me about it uh and it it was bad like in in retrospect like when I look back at pictures and stuff it's it's pretty wild to think that I still thought I was fat when that's you know when I was in that state like I and you know there was one other guy that that would say some stuff sometimes it was a guy I was in like like small groups with I don't really like the guy and he would like make comments about well you don't want to look like you know a concentration camp survivor and I like like I'm like I don't like this guy and so I'm not really gonna accept what he's saying but at the same time like in retrospect I was like I I looked pretty you know it makes it starved totally yeah yeah literally yeah literally I was systematically starving myself yeah yeah when I mean just curious like as your mom sort of noticed and this uh shared concern like how did that go I don't remember like I think I was in quite a bit of denial still but I was at that point like I would have I still considered my mom my best friend like we were like really tight and close and and talked a lot and so I think maybe a little bit more for her I was like okay I need to do something because I saw that it was hurting her and I didn't want to cause her more hurt her you know anxiety my sister is cost her a lot of anxiety over the years so I always tried to be like the good kid and to not not and so so that definitely I think did nudge me and that's when I I got into some counseling at the university uh so yeah it it it helped me you know it's knowing that she cared and then I was hurting her uh it did help me to to try to get some help for myself yeah yeah yeah um as you were navigating like it sounds like this sort of eating sort of started in college but did it continue as you were uh completed and like as a dietician yeah yeah for sure so it's I would say I was I was having the most trouble with it during my undergrad I got into my internship and I definitely was struggling some throughout my internship super stressful period of time and for me a lot of times the stress and I mean that's not universe or that's almost universal you know that's not unique to me but when there's stress it's I would either binge sometimes I would purge I really tried not to not to purge as much but um I was over exercising for sure and so I was kind of doing that to cope and I you know in a way like I think back on it was like well I was trying to help myself I was trying to comfort myself but I was just using tools that are that are not very effective um and don't really help because like maybe they make you feel good in a fleeting moment but then you have all the skill and everything that hits afterwards yeah yeah so made it through my internship then I went on a diet as I was like I got out of there and I went on a diet and so I was like kind of going right back into that culture then I got a job and it was only about a month gap so the diet didn't last very long and then I was living on my own and it would just get like fewer less frequent than I would fall back into like eating disorder behaviors so it would just spread out more and more but it extended for years still like not not again less and less frequent but still and even to this day like there's times when I'll be stressed and I'll notice myself going to food and now sometimes I'll just let myself because I'm like I'm not doing this all the time I'm gonna eat some food and like but it's not to the extremes that it used to be but I definitely try not to and I try to use strategies I think to not get to that point it whatever I can yeah yeah you said something uh in that that I think is really important I want folks to sort of really hear and that is understanding how folks who develop eating disorders and experience eating disorders it's it's not really about the food right it's about coping and it's about and I think you said something again I think really really important is that like it did something for you like it protected you from something right and I think that's such a valuable thing for people to understand to tackle the shame yeah of a needing disorder and understanding that like it that there's a body trust uh phrase or terminology that keeps coming up and that's there's coping in your wisdom and no scratch that it's the other way around there's wisdom in your coping got you you know and some and like our bodies sometimes really know what we need and what we can't handle yeah and that's when eating disorders can show up in that way right and so I really appreciate how you said that and noticing like hey this was the coping I needed uh yeah there yes there could have been better but like it's what I had then um but I think the other thing that I really wanted to highlight too is that like you know when when you sort of say like hey there might be times where I do go to food still today yeah you know I I think um I just wanted to say like I love that you said that and I I think that's normal right I think uh especially in our field but I think out out in diet land uh the idea of emotional eating gets lambasted and like there's a big no no and I don't think I agree with that like I think it's okay to eat emotional like I think there are times where you might use food to cope like that's normal and like you said sometimes there are other tools yeah that we can use um you know and and I tell folks like I want I want food to be emotional like um I tell folks about the movie like water for chocolate I don't know if you ever seen it right but like everything that this person cooks whatever they're feeling when they cook it in parts into the food and people feel it like I want people to feel emotional for food like with food like I want you know to be able to experience food in all of its glory um and sometimes it's coping and that's okay yeah yeah absolutely and a big thing for me was like trying to learn to be gentle with myself you know because like I can have so much compassion for when I'm working with people and like seeing what they're going through and that's been a real eye opener for me like over the years to realize wow I treat myself like garbage compared to how I try to treat the others around me so um feeling emotional I'm laying it some food and being like it's okay you know it's going to be okay it's just I'm not I'm not going to go back to you know and eating disorder every day it's this is this is serving us purpose for the moment yeah yeah well I love that you mentioned self-compassion I'm curious can you tell us more a little bit like how well first like how when did you feel like you got exposed to that idea of self-compassion um what was it like like what kind of things helped you um like uh develop some more self-compassion uh and like like yeah how does it show up today I think that a lot of it was a reaction to growing up real steeped in church and in a shame based culture and like over the years realizing like this is not working for me this is making me feel worse about myself and I remember real distinctly I was at like a men's bible study one morning and I was like I'm I'm over this you know like and I I even said some of it out loud to be like you know I've been you know throwing myself in the shame for too long like it's it's not working and then there'd been like a I knew I was getting away from the church more and more gradually and that that was one of those moments where I'm like I can't do this anymore like not not just the the shame but like the church in general like it it was it was not a good thing for me anymore um so yeah just just kind of grips with that a little bit and I think there's just been I think a few different things that I've read over the years and a few people talking maybe like some bernay brown and stuff like I've just like realizing like how I'm talking to myself how I'm treating myself and that that's not good and that I'm I need to make to to again just to start to start treating myself a bit better I'm sure way back in the day when I did some counseling that that came up a little bit too and yeah just the that it you know it's okay you're gonna be okay like being hard on myself was not getting me where I want to be how uh how have you found that process of trying to apply more self compassion like what was it like can you recall like what it felt like in the beginning and also like again how does it feel today yeah it initially it felt like BS like like it was really hard to embrace it's it's gotten I think gradually better a lot of this stuff is really interesting like I've I've been thinking about a lot of the stuff for years and years and it's really interesting to see how long it can take sometimes actually embrace some of these ideas and how like it'll just be I'll read something one day I'll hear something on a podcast or whatever and it's just kind of like gradually it's like a you know a creek you know making the grand canyon you know it's like gradually over time you see oh wow this is actually impacting my life and I'm actually looking at myself different and and treating myself in a different way but it took a long time to get there it took took a lot of water going through yeah I love that metaphor so much uh because working with folks who are like new yeah when they starting to do this yeah kind of work and like that kind of self-compassion is like well what what what is this going to work right right and I really love this idea of like just being exposed to a lot of different things to keep that creek flowing yep and over time look at what it does right but it doesn't happen overnight it doesn't that's a really great really great metaphor I love how you share that okay source again maybe because I'm a dietician I'm curious with this question yeah if you could have think about like how our profession could change to address some of the things that you noticed when you were getting your your education and your training yeah and sort of like the the ways in which our profession um does two things right one is perpetuates die culture and perpetuate shame yeah like what what would you sort of think about is things you would want to see Thank you. The traditions do differently. - From the undergrad, being in there and studying nutrition, I think of it a lot, like the whole chicken and egg thing, is it people like me who are prone to mental health and eating disorders that are attracted to nutrition, or is it the nutrition curriculum that does it? And I think it's absolutely both. And because it's so common, they do surveys and stuff, and who knows how honest people are? 'Cause I know I lied on things because I didn't want people to know that I had it eating disorder. But because we know it's there, we need to be talking about it. I mean, I feel like there should be a class. There should be like a small group that you go to and talk through how is it going for you? We're talking about nutrition all the time. How are you feeling? How's your relationship with food? Somewhere, because like I was struggling, and I talked to one professor one time about, I said, "I'm losing weight," and she's like, "Well, maybe you should just eat some bigger portions." And it's like, you get the same messages, even from a professor in the Dietetics program. And I found out later that she had had an eating disorder in the past, so maybe it was triggering for her to think about it, which is fine. And she's wonderful, and I had a couple classes with her, I really love her. But if you're a professor in a Dietetics program, you need to be equipped to be ready to know what to do if somebody comes to you, and they're like, "I'm struggling," and I have an eating disorder, so there need to be tools and resources and ways to get people plugged in for help. - Oh, I love that. Yes, to all of it, like listen, I became a Dietitian because of my own disorder relationship with food, that's why I found this profession, and dove in, I know that our stories are not unique, and that so many folks are the same way. I love the idea of how do we change our field, and I would even say knowing what I know about folks, other professionals and colleagues who work in the eating disorder world is like, how are we asking more questions about like, how are you doing? - Yeah. - And one of the things I wish that we did more as a profession, especially Dietitians, is like go, I tell folks, when I teach interns, I do it every now and then, is when your Dietitian, have a therapist, have a supervisor, like go to regular therapy and have a mentor, a supervisor that you can meet with on a regular basis to help talk through not only the challenging cases or situations, but someone who's gonna know what it's like. For you to go through this world, talking about food all the time, and again, how are you doing? So, I'm with you, well, next fancy UNI will be there, and we'll sort of start the wave of change together. - I like that sounds, I mean, it's just so needed, and I think yeah, that would be, yeah, just one of those things, and I think so many people would resonate with it too, like, yeah, just, again, yeah, it's just not talked about enough. - Yeah, yeah. As you've gotten older, you sort of talked a little bit about basketball, you talked about some other things. I'm curious, as you've gotten older, what kind of things now help you feel connected to your body? - So, I still, I really love working out, I love exercising in different ways. There's been times over the years when I've abused it, and I've got the injuries to prove it, where I can't really run anymore 'cause I ran too much, and I've got my knees messed up and stuff, 'cause I was lifting weights, all that, but I still really enjoy it. And so, that is one thing that when I'm out, and I'm moving, I'm walking, I'm lifting weights, I do run a tiny bit, they're thrown at Frisbee or whatever. I love how it feels to be able to go and do things, and to be like, okay, my body, I'm not crazy strong, but I do like that feeling of like I lift weights, and I'm strong, I like that. And I like the feeling of doing something that's hard, but then accomplishing it, that feels good to me. So, those things, sometimes, I'll take a nap, or you get a good night's sleep, or whatever, and you just, it's like I'm taking good care of my body, like I'm resting my body. So, that's been a huge thing for me, is finding that balance. I do like to do things that are active, but then I do also like to, I can embrace the rest. Now, which is something that was not always the case. And then another big thing is, like I talked about, I play the drums, and there's something about that, like in my body, like I wanna take care of my body, because this is something I like to do, it makes me feel good, and I feel really grounded, but I also feel connected in a way to like, if you wanna call it a higher power, like there's a spiritual aspect of that, where it's like, I'm using my body, I'm in this, and I feel something bigger than myself when I'm playing the drums. - Well, I love that aspect, and I'm, you know, someone else who loves music, and sort of wished I was a drummer. I took lessons as a kid, but just, I could do some basic stuff, but I really struggled one reading music, and two, trying to get four different appendages to do four different things in synchronicity. It just, I got too frustrated, like the practice, to do that. But I have this dream of playing the drums. I'm curious, 'cause I think it is a very embodied thing. - Yes. - I think it is an incredibly embodied thing. I'm curious if you notice a difference in how you feel in your body, depending on what music you're playing. - Oh, totally. Yeah, there's certain things that like, so I like real heavy music, and like there's something about that, and the physicality of it that feels great. But then I also love stuff that's like light and airy, like a John Mayer song, or something. It's about the simplest drum beat you can play, but there's just something, again, it's almost a theory all about that, of like floating through that song and sinking into that beat, and just, again, you just feel connected, you feel grounded, you feel, and again, there's just like something, it's more, like there, yeah, yeah, it's just like on another level. - Yeah, I love that. Do you notice a difference if you play with other people versus alone? - Yeah, so playing with other people can be very, very special, especially when it's people that I, it's kind of funny, but it's like if it's people that I like, you know, like that makes a huge difference. - Hell yeah. - I played in churches a lot over the years. I played a lot of stuff that I didn't like, but I played with people that I loved and a doored, and there's another level to that, for sure. I will say though that maybe because I've done it for so long, or maybe not, maybe it's just part of it, but if I'm listening to music, just playing along to music alone in my room here, that I can get a very similar feeling at times. There is something special about being with a group of people, but there you can, I feel like I can get a lot of it just on my own if I really sink into it. - Yeah, I love that. I love that. Okay, last couple of questions. I'm curious like if you could go back and tell your younger self, you know, that sort of, you know, preteen, you know, like first grade or second grade or whatever, kindergarten or like, what would you want to tell yourself? - You know, a lot of it feels like cliche, like it's going to be okay. It's all fleeting. You know, the things that feel so important, it's, you know, it's like a feather in the wind. Like it's like, it feels so heavy and it feels like this is an earth shattering thing right now, but over the years, like it just doesn't matter the way that it feels like it matters. The, you're a good person. Like that's something that is just so important to me to like, to feel like I'm a good person that partly that I matter, but also that I can have be a positive voice and other people's life. So just to be like, you're right, dude. You know, you got this. You, I see that you care. You know, that's like that type of thing. Like because that's, I think that's just such a core to my being. - Yeah, yeah, I love that. Anything we haven't touched on that you just sort of feel like is important to share about your story. - I feel like we've covered a lot of good things. It's food is, like what you're saying, to like, food is emotional. Food is something that we can sit down with others and share. Like I, you know, it gives me goosebumps just thinking about like sitting down with people that I love and eating and drinking and like there's just something so special about that. Diet, culture, eating disorders, like it ruins it. You know, it, it saps the joy out of it. Like if so many people are like, oh, I can't go out because I'm on a diet, right? You know, they won't go to like a holiday meal or whatever. because oh, I can't eat that stuff. Or they bring their stuff in a tupperware. And it's like, we just can miss so much of it and miss that connection. 'Cause that's the other thing, really. It's the connection, one connection to the food and just being able to enjoy it because we do get a lot of nourishment, not just the nutrients, but like to our soul from good food. But yeah, it breaks my heart to see so many people who are, we get so hung up on the food and what we can, it can't eat or whatever, that we miss it, you know, that we miss those opportunities, so. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - That's really well said. I think about how often people are eating sad food. And I tell folks like, listen, I know you think you like that non-fat frozen yogurt. I know you think it's great, but I guarantee you, if I gave you a scoop of ice cream, you're gonna love it. Like, and it's okay to love it. But like, don't settle. Like eat some food that brings you some joy like you said and that you can connect with. So yeah, I think, I love how you said that. Okay, last question I ask everyone, sort of as we wrap up is like, what kind of things do you either listen to, watch, enjoy, that you wanna share with people that might, not, you know, maybe like, again, nourishes your soul, makes you smile, makes you cry, makes you laugh, whatever. But like, what kind of things are you into that other folks might wanna check out? - Yeah, so music of course, like, whether it's slipknot or, you know, John Mayer or Dave Matty's band or whatever, like, just music that moves you, whatever way. You know, whatever you can resonate with, classical music. You know, I've, I remember being at like concerts and I'm just, I'm crying, like, just because of the way that vibrato like moves you. So, so music, finding something you enjoy is huge. I love, there's a couple of shows in particular that I love, so I love the great British baking show. I love sweets, you know, I love desserts and stuff. So that part's fun, it's inspiring. But I cry like every single episode. Because you just see these people so vulnerable, putting themselves out there, putting, pouring their hearts into making things. And it's not even like necessarily the person that makes the perfect thing that makes me cry. Sometimes that does. But sometimes it's the people that are falling on, flat on their face and you just like, feel so much for them, like, but they're still there. And then I was thinking about it too, even them, like in the midst of the show, they'll be like, it's about the people we're here with. And like just the connection and stuff. So it's kind of that same theme resonates in there. So yeah, that's a huge one for me for sure. One thing that's new since we did the last season is I actually created a Spotify playlist called unscripted playlist, I think. So if there's some songs you want me to add, let me know and I'll add 'em. I'm, I listen, I'm not gonna lie. I'm all for Slipknot. I, Cory Taylor is not the singer. - I think so. - Yeah, right. Dude, his voice rocks my world. And I think I found, I came to Slipknot later in life 'cause I think when I was, when they first came out, the masks were very sticky to me. But, have I listened to them more and more? I was like, oh, this band, like, yeah, they hold a special place in my heart, sure. And also, I just want to share one experience too. Like, I went, people, folks know I love Star Wars and they were performing Star Wars music at like the local concert hall, which is like this. By the way, it's not, I mean, it's beautiful. It's like the Walt Disney concert hall. It's designed by Gary, it's amazing. Anyway, and they had a full chorus to sing "Dool of the Fates" and like, I cried. Because just like the power of, you're right, you feel it. - You feel it. - The music, right? So, everyone out there, go to sea live music. Like, go sea live music. It's gonna change your life. There's way better than listening to it on the radio, on your, you know, through your Alexa. Whatever it is, to go sea live band, you're gonna, it's gonna rock your world. - Yeah, I understand. - That's awesome. - Well, Lee, it's been a treat to talk to you. I'm so grateful that you came up and introduced yourself. I'm really at the conference. I'm grateful that you agreed to come on the show. I know someone's gonna hear your story and really, really resonate with it. So, thank you so much for coming on. - Yeah, sincere pleasure. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you for doing this. You know, thank you for talking at Fancy. Thank you for having the podcast. Thanks for being a platform. And just for the work you do as well. Like, I mean, it's, again, just like we've been talking about, we have these opportunities to make a difference in somebody's life. And I know that you're doing that and you're helping people. - Yeah, well, thank you. I appreciate that. (gentle music)