Season 3 | Episode 5 | Possibility Thinking and Preventing Teacher Burnout

[MUSIC] Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of The Teacher Takeaway Podcast. You are joining us for episode five of season three. The season is flying by and we are already here at episode five. The topic or the title for this week's episode is Possibility Thinking and Preventing Teacher Burnout. My name is Aaron. I am hosting this episode. I'm joined by the wonderful Rebecca West. Hello everybody. Thanks for joining us. Alice and James are with us tonight. But we do have a very special guest. This week we are joined by Jessica Mason. Hello Jessica. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. It is our absolute pleasure to have you on. For our listeners, just so you know, Jessica is a wellness coach for teachers. And she's on a mission to support educators to live more mindful, calm and balanced life. She hosts in-person workshops, coaches, clients, one-on-one capacity, and runs online courses designed to guide teachers to ditch the burnout and truly thrive. So Jessica, I am so excited for this conversation. I am sure we're going to get so much out of it. Oh, I hope so. That's the plan. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. We are going to get straight into it. So the first question is a really big broad open one. Tell us a little bit about yourself, about your journey and what has led you to yeah, this space and what you're doing at the moment. Well, my name is Jess. As we know, my pronouns are she, her. I got to this space through being a teacher first. So yes, I'm a wellness coach for teachers, but up until maybe four or five months ago, I was a teacher myself. And I've run my wellness coaching business for around five years, alongside being a teacher. And so the reason that I got into this business and I created this space is because in my final year of university and subsequently, my first few years of teaching, my anxiety and my, you know, I reached burnout very early on. But it was very intense and I was struggling to keep up with the workload. There was a statistic in our final year of university. I'm sure everyone's heard this, but it was something around, you know, three quarters of you won't make it to five years in teaching because of the workload. And I remember thinking there is no way that's going to be me. I'm going to be a career teacher. I'll be doing this till I retire. And I was about two years in. And I remember thinking I can't do this forever. How am I going to continue? There's got to be another way. And so after a lot of tried and tested methods and seeking support, I happened across mindfulness techniques, personal development, radical self awareness. And I began shifting things in my personal life first. And I found that the ripple effect into teaching and into my daily life at school was incredible. It was massive. And so I began to incorporate some of those practices into my daily life as a teacher. And so I went from basically being a mess, being in my deputy's office in tears most days, to someone who loved being in the classroom, who was thriving, who I felt this reinvigorated energy, I guess. And from there, my line manager, my associate principal, began to ask me if I could lead staff meetings in terms of mindfulness and wellness. I was creating wellness days for our school. And for the teachers and students, I studied coaching in 2017 and got my coaching qualification. And from there, I launched a business so that I could support teachers who were outside of my immediate school community. And it's just lit me up ever since. So running workshops in school holidays, coaching clients, one-on-one to support them doing PDs at schools. It's just, it's been the greatest joy to support teachers to see that there is another way. Because I think the common narrative in schools is this is what it's like, welcome to teaching, you know. And like the title of this episode is "Possibility Thinking", bringing teachers into an awareness that there is more that is possible for them than what they may be seeing play out. So can I clarify? Are you still teaching and running these workshops? I now, I am also an education consultant during the day for a beautiful company. And I also run my business. So I'm not in the classroom as of the last four or five months. But yeah, I was doing both for a long time. I'm just, I was so keen to be like, hey, how did you balance that well being, that low, that would have been huge. It was huge for a long time. And I think I really had to practice what I was preaching because not only was I working full time as a classroom teacher, I was also supporting teachers who were working full time as classroom teachers. And so not not only was it a lot, but I think the thing that really made it possible was that it was something that lit me up and I got energy from doing that. So I think if it had been something that I found really draining, there was no way that I'd be five years deep alongside teaching. But it was something that I always look forward to. If I had a client or a couple of clients after work, I was so excited to meet with them and to, you know, check in. And so it was, it was definitely a lot. But yeah, it's just the biggest joy. I think you found the like-minded people in the podcast here, considering we, you know, sit on our lounges or beds or whatever in our pajamas and and and podcasts once a week when we can or share it around. So I think we can relate to that feeling of what it's like to help our colleagues. So I guess getting to the bigger moments than that, what are the biggest barriers to well-being that you've seen some of those teachers facing? I think there's the obvious ones that we all hear, which is that the workload is, you know, very intense and seems to be only growing. Feeling time poor is also one of the largest ones I see. But one that I don't see being spoke about and one that is honestly the most common with teachers before they become clients or teachers that I see in workshops is that they don't actually believe that it's possible to feel a different way. And so there's this self-sabotaging that seems to happen and they don't even realize that that's happening. So the thing that I lead, the question that I lead every workshop with is do you believe that it's actually possible to thrive as a teacher? Because generally, if your answer to that question is no, you're not going to show up with actions that will lead you to feeling better because you don't actually believe that it's possible. So you're not going to put energy towards making that happen. Or you may start doing things that you think will be supportive, but you'll sabotage that somewhere along the line because your belief doesn't match your actions. And so I think it seems to be somewhat of a silent barrier that I don't see a lot of people speaking about, but it's honestly probably the biggest one that I see holding clients back and when they're able to shift those beliefs and realize that something else is possible for them, they're much more likely to show up in alignment with that and take maybe bolder action than they would have previously. So the biggest barriers are the ones that we talk about all the time. Plus these silent ones that act as beliefs and choices and what teachers are affirming to themselves on a daily basis or what they've heard from somebody else, more experienced teachers possibly, that they then take on as their own beliefs without even realizing. Yes, so not believing that it's possible is probably the biggest barrier that I see. I just love that because like you were saying before, it's the narrative that we hear all the time and we say, "Oh, this is just how it is. This is just how it's always going to be." And you heard that narrative start for you in university. Do you know? This is what's going to this is what's going to be like. You're going to be, you know, you're not going to make it and then we have those, like you said, unconsciously that I guess mine said, you know, that this is just how it is and I just have to accept it. This is the way it's always going to be. That, I love what you that you brought that up because that is huge, you know. You were talking before about lily from the teacher, you know, collection and one of the one of my favorite cards of hers is mindset is what separates the best from the rest and what you said, like it's the power of what we truly believe to is possible. And I can understand why teachers would have these beliefs, because if you're coming into an industry that you haven't worked in before, you're going to look for those with experience and those who are further down the track to see what's possible. And so we are knowingly just adopt what we're told, or this is the saddest one I see. As a teacher, I was a mentor teacher a few times and had pre-service teachers come into my classroom and I would, you know, if they were in first year, but finally year of uni. And the saddest thing I see is when mentor teachers are reiterating that to the pre-service teachers and soon to be graduates who haven't even stepped into a classroom yet. So they're forming those beliefs before they've even got there and been able to figure it out for themselves. But I understand why. And I also understand from the perspective of an experienced teacher, if you've been in an industry for 20 plus years and you've only experienced it being one way, you've got a lot of evidence to suggest something. And so it seems illogical to then create a new belief because you don't have evidence towards that. But really a silly thing that our brains do is whatever our belief is, we collect evidence for that. And so of course, you're going to continue collecting evidence for a belief that you have until you decide to challenge that belief and collect new evidence to affirm what your new belief is. So I understand why it is that way on all accounts. But just even sprinkling, you know, a little bit of possibility in that there's another way can open up the door for choice for teachers. I think also one of the harder ones being someone who has been teaching for 20 years is one of those things where it's not the same thing that you've seen. It's lots of changes except the changes haven't felt like they're for the better. It's heavier curriculum, heavier workload, more things, more expectations, more documentation and that just makes it harder and harder and harder. So yeah, so they don't think it's possible. So what have you experienced or witnessed as being possible when it comes to teacher well being? So many and I've written a few things down from clients over the years because I'm yeah, five or six years deep in this business and have worked with a lot of teachers. The first thing I would say though is that something I suggest that teachers look for when they're wanting to change the way that they're showing up or change their perspective is to look for expanders and expanders are people who expand our vision of what's possible for us because if we're just seeing people who are showing up in the same way that we do, we're not very likely to change. It's that adage of you can't be what you can't see, I guess. And so you may have a look around for expanders in your school and this doesn't mean there's just going to be magically someone in your school who is thriving and doesn't experience any burnout and it's all magical. There may not be that person at your school, but there may be people demonstrating aspects of the way that you would love to start showing up and the way that you'd love to feel or there may be even people online that are giving you some sort of evidence. And a story I always tell is years ago I was working with a colleague and we got to the end of the year and I was working, you know, I'd get to school at seven or seven thirty in the morning and I'd be leaving at five, six at night and maybe doing work, you know, late into the night. And he would show up to work at eight a.m. and he would leave it for and he was a fantastic teacher and by the end of the year, we got to the end of the year and I just thought, okay, all of our students are happy, they've done well. He's accomplished everything that he needed to for the year. We've both gotten to the same point. Why was I working ten times harder than he was working? And so I made it just an experiment for the next year and I thought, I'm just going to try. I'm going to try and get to work at eight. I'm going to try and get, leave it for and I'm just going to see what happens. And if it doesn't work, I'll just go back to what I was doing because, you know, I know how that feels and that's comfortable. And I tried it and it was tricky at first. There was a teething period but I became so much more efficient and it seemed to work and that became my new normal and it was only possible because I had that expand. I didn't know that he was that for me. He was just living his life but it showed me what was possible because I wasn't living that myself. So finding someone who can act as an expander for you would be my first suggestion and if you can't find anyone, recognizing that you may be that expander, that may be your role to step into that. But what I've seen as possible, I wrote a few down, is the biggest one is self advocacy. That's a huge thing that I see in my clients as we work together is generally at the start, they're a bit trepidacious about showing up for themselves and they don't want to ask, not to be respected but to maybe have more time or to show up for themselves, I guess. So self advocacy, a transformed mindset, we're speaking about mindset before, that's a huge piece that I see, balance and when I say balance, a lot of people are going to say, that's not possible or seeing balance as 50/50 but once you recognize or you define what balance looks like for you, you're more likely to show up for that rather than thinking of balance as this magical feeling where you're working 50% of the time and you're at home 50% of the time defining what that is for you will allow that to be possible, increase confidence, seeing work as separate and not taking things as personally, having more time for themselves, these are all things that I've seen clients thrive and build into and grow into. So there's, if you're listening to this podcast and you're like, I don't have any evidence of what's possible, that's a whole list of things that have been possible for so many teachers across Australia that I've worked with that maybe had the same doubts coming in to a series or coming into choosing themselves. So yeah, there is so much, I think it's limitless what's possible. I love that, I love hearing about some of those things that are possible and there could be people that hear that are listening to that and saying that sounds great but I just don't feel, I don't know how to get there. So I guess what are some of your tips of where can teachers start on their journey away from burnout? So the first thing I would say, and this is where I see teachers not go wrong because I don't believe there is a wrong but maybe set out on a path that may not lead them to success. A lot of teachers start by thinking about what can I do, what actions can I take and we may look online and see, oh, going for walks or having baths or drinking lots of water and all those things are amazing and there's nothing wrong with them but there's usually a beginning that starts with action steps. And as I was saying before, if your belief doesn't align with the actions that you're taking, it's probably not going to be sustainable for you. So I would say instead of looking at what can I do, what actions can I take, what can I add to my week, I would first look at what are your beliefs, what do you believe to be possible? Can you challenge those? And instead of maybe if your belief was, I don't think teacher well being as possible or it's not possible for me or it's only possible for childless people or it's only possible, whatever it is, shifting that by one degree, two degrees. So maybe it's just, I'm opening up to new possibilities this term or maybe things can be a little bit more effortless than I realized. Instead of I'm going to thrive 100%, if you don't believe it and it seems, you know, two grandiose, you're probably not going to follow through. So beliefs would be the first one and if you feel as if you need support with that, other teachers, your teacher besties could be a valuable resource here or reaching out to a coach or someone in this space. So beliefs would be the first one. And then I would also say in terms of then taking action steps, a lot of teachers think about what can I add? I'll add walks or I'll add gratitude or I'll add journaling or something like that. And that's all well and good. And I know whenever someone has asked me as a teacher who has a to do list as long as the Nile River to add something, it's like no, I'm too time poor. I don't want to do it. Don't tell me what I need to do. I'm already at capacity. So instead of looking at what can I add, I would look at what can I tweak or what can I take away. So what can I tweak that I'm already doing every single day that I can just make a little bit more supportive or a little bit more nourishing. So maybe that's, I already have a daily commute to school. I have to do that anyway. That's not changing. How can I make that really supportive? Maybe I'm curating some really soothing, slow calming playlists to support my nervous system. Or I have to be on duty anyway. I have to go on lunch duty. That's a given. Maybe I'm taking really deep breaths. That's my prompt for deep breathing or for grounding or to be really mindful and notice things that I can see and hear and feel and come back to the present moment. So what can I tweak or what can I take away? Let's look at maybe the fluff I like to call it, the stuff where maybe you've seen a really awesome display on Instagram and you're like, I want to create that and you spent three hours laminating and doing all these amazing things. Maybe that's, it's probably great, but what can you take away that you don't need to be doing? So the two things that I would suggest to start off is looking at your beliefs and choosing again and then looking at not what what you can add but what you can tweak and take away to take some of that pressure off and just go gently towards thriving. And really analyzing what works. We've had conversations before where those things around you identify where something's working for you, it's not working for you. And from memory, I think James always said if something wasn't working, he realized because he was digging into the takeaway, the beginning takeaway food more often. That was just, he realized it was a trigger for him. So he realized if he was doing that, then all those other wellness strategies weren't working or he wasn't being as dedicated to keeping the strategies consistent. We've also spoken before about exactly what you're talking about tweaking but the habit stacking. So I don't know if you've read atomic habits. It's such a great book that whole yeah, find something that's already a habit and I started doing it for brushing my teeth. So I just wanted to make sure, because I used to dance and be fit in everything and totally not now, but I found that you know, I wanted to stretch a little bit. So now when I brush my teeth, I'm just trying to do some of those side stretches and things to get the body moving in the morning, it gets there to the lungs, that kind of thing. I don't have time to get up and do yoga every morning. I'm not finding the time. I'm not adding to my load, my liars, but I can stretch while I brush my teeth instead of just standing there, you know, trying to keep my eyes open. So it's achievable and that's something that is possible. So that mindset is definitely, I like that language around that, instead of what's successful or what's more achievable, what's possible, it brings it to the realm of possibility. And also knowing that there's no right or wrong, like I've had clients who they love being productive, they love being on, they want to work till five, they love being in the school, their atmosphere of a school. And so to them, feeling well and thriving doesn't look like what it would for other teachers. Other teachers are, I want to get out of school and I want to transition into my home as soon as I possibly can and I want to relax and I want to feel rejuvenated. So knowing that if we're talking about possibility thinking, it's not, you know, what are the edges of possibility that I can possibly get to to feel well, it's just what's within, within the realm of possibility for me that I desire to achieve, not what, so and so down the hall or the teacher next door believes teacher well being to look like. Thriving looks different for each person. And if I think back to my earlier years of teaching as well, even when I started to feel like I was thriving, it wasn't all day. It might have been in one particular aspect of my teaching. And for me, the arts was something that I felt like I connected with quite quickly in my earlier years. And that was the kind of thing was like, yeah, now that lesson, definitely now that activity I walk away feeling like the kids were all engaged. No one was off task. They all created something amazing, but that did not really say in my maths lessons. So in that realm of possibility towards, yeah, really, I guess celebrating where you do feel like you're thriving, even if it's only in those little pockets at first and building up from that. Yeah, exactly. And this is something I've spoken about recently in that sometimes, I think as teachers we get this idea that if it's not sustained, then it's a failure. As in I hear a lot of teachers saying, with the best intentions, you know, this term is going to be different. This term I'm going to show up for myself or this term I'm going to feel so calm and then maybe two or three weeks in they hit a really busy period or something happens with a student and they feel really emotionally drained. And so then they label that as a failure and they stop. But my belief that I love to share is that it's not only a success or it's not only working if it's sustained forever. Life is going to life and we're going to experience all these different types of emotions. But and wanting one particular emotion to last forever is also not, yeah, not experiencing the spectrum of what it is to be a human. So giving yourself, showing yourself compassion and giving yourself a little bit of grace. And if you didn't feel the way that you desire to feel for a day or a week, that's totally fine. It doesn't mean that your intention has gone by the wayside. It's just I'm going to pick back up and I'm going to keep going. Yeah, that's great. Really, really good. Like you said, because we get discouraged so easily when like you said, something comes up and you know, we feel like, oh, well, I'll just give up completely because that didn't work. Yeah, that's that's a really great point, Jess. I love that. And on that note of, you know, there are things that that do happen that we don't that we don't plan from we have the best intentions and we can still have those moments where, you know, we are overwhelmed or things are escalating. So have you got some maybe some go to strategies that teachers can use on the spot in those kind of moments when when those those feelings and those things kind of arise? Yeah, good question. So something that I see a lot of when it comes to wellbeing is that teachers feel as if they have to wait to access that. So I need to wait until 3pm or I need to wait until the weekend or I need to wait until the school holidays until I can properly relax until I can properly, you know, feel well or feel calm. And I love to debunk that myth in that you can feel that way whenever you so choose. So you asked, you know, what are some things that you can do in terms of if things are escalating in the moment. One scenario that I see happen a lot is when teachers are in staff meetings and let's say there's something escalating in a staff meeting or something is being there's a new program or something's being loaded on you. There's new policy changes and you're sitting there and it's all a bit much. Something I suggest which is just a really interesting shift is instead of attaching to everything that's going on is sitting back, taking a deep breath and looking at everything like you're witnessing it as if it's a movie on a screen and that you are just witnessing that you're not, you don't have to be part of it. You don't need to attach yourself and kind of getting out the hypothetical popcorn in a way and being like, oh, that was interesting. I didn't expect that. I wonder what's going to happen next and kind of building a bridge, I guess, and a bit of a gap so that you're not constantly emotionally attaching yourself to every single thing that's happening. So that's a really easy one. But also what I mentioned before about mindfulness and grounding and deep breathing. This is kind of like the daily toolkit, I guess, for teachers. So instead of waiting to do those things when it's 3 p.m. when the school day's done, when it's the weekend, if the more that you can do those things throughout the day, the less, I guess, disheveled and exhausted you're going to feel towards the end of the day because you're taking time to come back to the present to regulate your nervous system as you're moving through the day. So mindfulness, as I said, could look like recognizing things that you can see and hear and feel in the present moment, instead of living from the shoulders up and only existing in your mind for the entire school day. It's like you expand time when you bring your awareness back to the present moment. Grounding is a beautiful one, so you may like to do this while you're listening to the podcast, put your feet flat on the floor and notice all the points of contact between your feet and the floor or your feet and your shoes. And then you can even imagine routes growing down from your feet through the ground and stabilising you and grounding you. I find that's a really effective one for anxious teachers, especially when they feel very flighty and anxious. And also that deep breathing. So for years, I would go to work and I feel like I would barely breathe or it was chest breathing. And I'm sure we've all experienced this. We get to the end of the day and we let out a big, you know, that big sigh because we haven't even, we haven't really been breathing properly. So finding something to act as a prompt, I used to have a little pink sticker that I put on my laptop at work. And whenever I saw that pink sticker, that was my reminder to take a really big deep belly breath. And so it could be a poster in your classroom. I've heard some teachers, they pick a student and whenever they're they see that student, that's their reminder. But finding ways that you can settle your nervous system, regulate and really ground throughout the school day is really supportive, as well as the little hypothetical popcorn mindset shifter. I went straight to the Michael Jackson, you know, the gift that he made in the popcorn in the cinema, just waiting to soak up whatever's going on. I think after a while for some of those things, yeah, you get a bit de-sensitized to the point where when it hits you like, "Oh, right, well, what's next?" "Oh, we're resilient, aren't we?" Okay, so I think we've gone through all of the questions that we had there with you. I suppose before we get to how we can contact you, is there any other message, key messages that you want to leave with our listeners while we wrap up this episode? I think the main thing that we haven't touched on too much. I guess it links to beliefs is just reminding all of the teachers listening that you are worthy of showing up for and you are worth feeling well as a teacher because that is also a big barrier that I see that teachers prioritize or pedestal, I guess, their students need, and de-escalate or put their needs on the back burner because they don't think that they're worthy. That may not always be a conscious thought. They may not be walking around thinking, "I'm not worthy of this and other people are," but it may be kind of the undertone or that's what's underneath the way that they're showing up. I've reminded that you are so worthy of showing up for the ripple effect is incredible and it's almost a disservice not to because the ripple effect for your students is just magical. So your worth taking these steps for would be my final word, I guess. And a good way, because someone pointed this out to me as well, a good way to know if you are doing that negative process to yourself without even realizing it is doing the theoretical in your head, what advice would you give to the teacher next to you if they presented the exact same problem to you? You'd probably tell them to do A, B, C. You also need to do A, B, C for yourself too. You can't just be like, "Well, I'll trudge through. If you're going to give that advice to someone else, you need to give that advice to yourself as well." Exactly. Exactly. Amen. Okay, so to get more of your amazing knowledge and expertise, how can people get in contact with you? So my two favorite places to hang out online, I guess one would be Instagram, so people can find me at jessica.mason.com or they can head to my website and on my website is all information about my coaching packages and there's a lot of free resources there as well. There's also the mindful teacher bundle, which is a bundle that teachers can download that has video master classes, guided meditations that are created specifically for teachers, lots of downloads so they can get started in their own times, straight away. And my website is www.jessica.com, which is my maiden name. If anyone could tell me how to change a URL, that would be amazing. And deMunk is spelled D-E-M-U-N-C-K. So you can find that through Instagram if you had their first. They'll be a link. Yeah, they're the two places people can find me. Awesome, Jess. Thank you for sharing such a great episode. I have lots of things going through my brain to process, but let's wrap it up with some takeaways. Beck, what are your takeaways from this episode? You have more than one this time. I have more than one. I have, I think, technically three. So the first one is easy. I'm stealing the phrase life is going to life, and I want it on a shirt. Because that's what we need at school. Just when stuff's happening, life is going to life. We just have to deal. My other is the notion of the expanders. And I've got two different takeaways I'm going to take from that. One is the leadership perspective around. I feel like I need to identify who my expanders are on staff, being the leader of a school and being able to go, that person is quite obviously an expander and would be able to be a great role model for this person over here who might be struggling in that particular thing. And I need to find a way to buddy them up or give them time to be a mentor or provide them with those opportunities. So it's not done by Osmosis. It's actually quite strategic and targeted and supported. And the other thing I want to take away from that is making sure the expanders have expanders. It's almost like, well, if we've got gifted and talented kids in the class, that means they can learn independently and I'll just give them whatever. They still need to be uplifted and supported and given opportunities to thrive themselves. And I think I don't want to let expanders just rest on those laurels that they might be intrinsically motivated or whatever they need. Something above them as well that they can aspire to utilize and make sure they are also thriving and not burning out just because they happen to be an expander. So those are the things I'm going to take away tonight. Have it you own? Excellent one. That's love. All of those. My two things that I'm really taking away Jessica. I loved right back at the start where we talked about that belief. What do you really believe is possible? And I think for me, it's probably being more mindful of that self-talk and even the talk that comes out of my mouth around, oh, this is just how it is. This is just always the way it's going to be being more mindful of that. And when that I find myself thinking that way, sort of stopping myself and going, "No, hang on." Is that really what I want for myself? That's probably one really key thing that I want to try and be, I guess, more conscious of and really shift that narrative for myself and also for the teachers that I work with as well and really encourage them to think about what is truly possible? What do we truly want? And going after those things? And then the second thing that you touched on Jessica was the idea of, you know, we don't need another thing, you know, like for me personally, with, you know, work and having a family and all of those things, the last thing I need is one more thing. But what are the things in my day that I can tweak? I just love that sort of tweaking thing. For me, I've got a little bit of a commute, 30, 40 minute drive. What can I do on that drive? That's going to be nourishing or, you know, create space for me to feel well. And things too, like you said, like, you know, little habits throughout the day, you know, whether it's like you said at Pink Sticker, that's a prompt for me to go stop, pause, have a moment, you know, deep breathe when I'm out on playground, Judy, those kind of things that you said that we have to do, we can't change them, but how do we make some more, you know, nourishing for our for our wellbeing? I just, I love that then my two takeaways. Beautiful. Oh, they're so good. And I'll just add back because I loved what you said about the expanders for the expanders. Something that I get so often is the clients that come to me are the competent ones. They're generally the ones in the school that are very skilled. They're very good at what they do. And there's almost a loneliness in that. Because then once we've worked together, they also become very competent at showing up for themselves, caring for themselves, putting themselves first. And they find that sometimes they can't relate to the other teachers that they work with as much. And so finding expanders for the expanders gets me so excited because knowing that they will also have the support that they deserve, it just brings me so much joy. So I love knowing that that will be happening in at least one school. Just one. No, no, we'll get, we'll get that notion running through and hopefully anyone listening, especially if they're a leader taking this way, or even if you're not a leadership by title, perhaps you might go on and lead by example. Yeah, such a great episode Jessica. Thank you so much for joining us. It has been such a wonderful conversation. My absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. And hopefully we'll have you back again soon for some all great conversations. But yeah, we really appreciate you joining us. Thank you to everybody for listening. That is it for this episode. Episode five of the Teacher Takeaway podcast, where we discussed all things, possibility thinking and preventing teacher burnout, wherever you are. I hope that you can take something away from this episode. That is going to help you on your journey towards like Jessica said, thriving. But wherever you are listening from, have an amazing week. And we will have you with us again soon for another great episode coming up. Bye.