Season 3, Episode #3 - The Money Minds of EconSoc

[Music] If someone knows a lot of classical music, that's definitely George Courtaug. And when I was telling him my project on these concertos, and then I told him that, "Did you know that all of these concertos were actually written for Hungarian violinists?" He said, "Oh, really?" [Music] Usually if I start teaching anyone in a masterclass or in my own class, it's very rare that I'm not talking about how to be more relaxed, more flexible, less tension. [Music] Every music has to sing or dance. [Music] Tomorrow you will never have more time. [Music] Dramatic Bartok here on the Gramophone Podcast, the opening to the third movement of his violin concerto number two. That from the 2010 Hungrton recording with the Hungarian National Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by the late great Zoltan Kocciš. And we heard the violin playing and voice of Barnabash Kellerman, our guest on the Gramophone Podcast this week. We're exploring the legacy of the Hungarian violin school. This podcast is brought to you in association with the Festival Academy Budapest, Barnabash being their co-founder and artistic director. And asking the questions is Jack Pepper, composer and gramophone contributor, and this is my first outing on the pod, so really great to be with you. Festival Academy Budapest is a summer chamber festival, which organizes concerts, masterclasses and competitions. Their 11th summer fest runs from the 3rd of July to the 13th, while the Ilona Féir International Violin Competition runs concurrently from the 24th of June to the 5th of July. But before all of that, at the beginning of May, they'll celebrate the great Hungarian violin school in style, with Barnabash performing nine violin concertos across three days, each concerto dedicated to an iconic Hungarian violinist. Expect music by Chikovsky, Brahms, Sibelius, Dvořák, Robert Schumann, Brook, Barthok and Revel, all writing for Hungarian violinists through time. So, let's begin our conversation with this concerto marathon. I started by asking Barnabash precisely what it is about Hungarian violinists that has proven so inspiring to composers over the centuries. I have to say that it's exactly the same period of time when actually the great master of the first big generation of Hungarian violinists talking about Josef Joachim, Leopold Auer, Karl Flesz, Edward Remyny, or even the young Hubei, these amazing violinists were either officially or privately studying from Josef Bühn. And Josef Bühn was born in Hungary in Budapest, very successful violinist he became, and he was the one who established the Hungarian violin school such as such, not many people know at all. He was the head of the Vienna Music Academy, the director of the Academy for decades, and interesting story also that Josef Bühn was the concertmaster of the world, premier of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony when Beethoven was totally deaf and was conducting. So basically Josef Bühn was leading the whole premier, and this is the second goal that I want to call the attention of the world, music world, that Josef Bühn was the first and most amazing violinist professor of the Hungarian tradition. And then he was the Hungarian tradition who established this incredible role and school of violin playing in Hungary, and of course he must also have been in touch with and inspired by the Gypsy tradition, which is based on the folk tradition, going back thousands of years maybe. And then he was definitely defined, if this isn't too broad a question, the Hungarian sound. When we speak of the Hungarian school of playing, is it a sound, is it a mindset, an attitude, what could you just sort of define the Hungarian school if you like? Definitely there is the two very unique inspiration in the 20th century, clearly coming from the folk violin playing, you know inspiring Bartok, Veyner, Kodai, and then later Ligeti and Kurtag as well. But in the 19th century definitely the very special and unique Hungarian Gypsy tradition definitely inspired not only Brahms and Vorja and Liszt and Sarasate and Ravel and all these guys. And if we look at these violinists, they went all around the world and they had their very unique and special own sound. And Huba he was forcing his students and working on finding all of his students' individual sound and personal voice, which makes everybody unique. I have to say that all these students of Josef Böhm that I was telling, they basically established violin schools, Ljopod Hour in St. Petersburg. Then later on he moved to California where he was still working for two decades I think, so teaching also the teachers of Isaac Stert for example he also went to California as a young child from Ukraine actually. Josef Jörgiem and Carf Les, they established the German school then Huba after Vyotan went to teach in Brussels and working on the Belgian violin school. And definitely what is special in them is that they are all unique. So many branches of the European and world music tree do trace their way back to Hungary. When you speak about the Gypsy tradition, what specifically does that lend a classical violinist? Is it a sense of improvisation, a bandon again? Is it an attitude? What do you think the Gypsy sound can teach a violinist in this case? At the festival academy we always invite the best Gypsy players and last year it was always Lajoszarkozy who was playing. And when we were listening with Schlommomens, with Joshua Bell or Gidon Kramer or Patrizia, Kopacyska or all these friends were there and amazed by them. Actually, of course the first thing is maybe that what comes in our mind is incredible virtuosity but that doesn't mean anything without the passion that comes from usually from all of these Gypsy pre-marses. And I have to say that my grandfather, my mother's father was one of the most famous of them in the 30s, early 20s until his death in 1948. Most of these songs are in minor. So rare to hear a song, an authentic Hungarian Gypsy song that is in major. The sorrow, the pain, the crying is always there even if we are having fun. There is a saying that Hungarians are having fun while they are crying. So the incredible emotion and of course every Gypsy music either can be or must be sung and if not then it's a dance. And where do we hear that influence in the concertos that you're going to be playing in May? Well, there is definitely a very strong link in Brahms' music. Both in the double concertos as well but the strongest one I have to confess now to the listeners and readers that the most Hungarian part of the Brahms violin concerto was shown to me by no one else but tell their currencies. And he was showing me the most Gypsy part in the third movement of the Brahms concerto. The viola, well viola form since Bach and Mozart and Beethoven. viola was many times the favorite voice of these composers and that was the instrument that they loved to play and the viola is very, very unique in the Gypsy music. So to create even a very slow dance character is cannot happen without the viola player because the swing there is a special freedom of the viola player and there are several passages but there is one particular in the second middle section of the third movement in the Brahms violin concerto. And then we can also say that the Schumann violin concerto last movement definitely has also this dance like that can be linked. Our Dvořák always loved the Gypsy music and he loved Hungarian Gypsy music even though his last movement is very Czech. So the Psykowski for example writing his concerto the passion could be inspired by the Gypsy but of course the melodies and the themes even if it was Lepold Auer for whom he wrote the concerto. If you talk about Rávat Sigand and it's quite clear where the Gypsy is coming from because I'm playing that piece as well that was written for really Aranny but the Bartok music later on in the 20th century was definitely inspired by the folk violinists who were many times actually Gypsies in the small village. But it's very different in the folk, peasants, life where those Gypsies played music was very different from the big city, big fancy restaurants. In what way? What are the big differences? Well definitely the roots of the folk music goes back uncomfortably. So we can't say it's a few hundreds, a few thousands of years. It's infinite, how shall I say? Because there the music came from the parents. They learned always from the parents and grandparents and the tradition is very, very ancient. And I have to say that if you, many of the listeners readers know about the Verbunkos music, right? Bartok also writes the first movement of the famous contrast by Bartok is the Verbunkos, but even the first movement of the wedding concert, the second violin concerto is also kind of a Verbunkos. Verbunk in German means advertising. And in the early 19th century with music, Hungarians were advertising the revolution against Austrians. I have to say. And then we're finding all these music composed in Vienna. So how funny, but the Verbunk is a kind of a call for the whole nation to come and stay together and let's fight for freedom. So can you hear different aspects of Hungarian culture and playing and sensibilities, depending on the concertos that we're talking about? Is there something to be said for sort of Brahms was sat in a cafe hearing a version of Hungarian folk music? And then, you know, compared with say Bartok, it is one a little bit more direct, closer to the roots perhaps? Well, there's a big difference. So the romantic concertos, even though they were written for Hungarian violinists, are not really based on Hungarian music or any sort of Hungarian melodies, because these violinists as the greatest violinist ever, they are very, very international players. Everybody wrote their own world. But it might change the way you play. I mean, can you hear the influence of the violinists? I don't think that Schumann violin concertos should be played differently than Mendelssohn, because Schumann wrote it for Joachim and Mendelssohn didn't write it for Hungarian. By the way, Beethoven and Mendelssohn violin concertos were not very successful, strange enough, after their word premier, and Josef Joachim made them very famous. So we also have to thank Joachim for these two concertos. And as I said, even Bartok, you know, I say that there are many Hungarian violinists who cannot play Bartok violin concerto very well, and there are wonderful violinists who are not Hungarians who can play the Bartok concerto fantastic. So these masterworks are really, they're really above nations and just international music, with very important roots that is good to know about. So let's take the Bartok as an example. If you were sort of creating your list of the things you need to be as a violinist or the things you need to keep in mind with that piece, all things you need to avoid, you know, potential traps. What are the challenges of that composer? It's fantastic that you can listen to his own playing. So there is the recital from Washington with Josef Sigheti and Bartok playing their famous recital Beethoven Debussy and Bartok Samatas. So that's one thing that one must understand. That is also important to search for those music that he might have heard in the village. You can even find the recordings that he recorded, Bartok. What kind of words would you associate with the Bartok school of playing and writing from a violin perspective? What kind of words would you use to describe Bartok and the violin? Yeah, well, that Bartok definitely went closer to and said that the real roots of Hungarian music should be found in the pure folk music. But what I just said about Gypsies is totally true for folk music in Hungary. So the folk songs are also many times in minor. There are many times about how sad we are, that we are. we cannot be in love with the ones we want to or why are we being hurt? Or wars were also, you know, that many times in the families, the folk songs are many times that we have to send, to say goodbye to the men in the family. So which of these pieces in this marathon in May is giving you the most sleepless nights? Which of these pieces is the one that makes you most scared? Only one, this is the Schumann concerto, because I played it first time, about 15 years ago, when I was in a tour with Sibelis concerto in Holland and then they called me, "Hey, Barnabas, can you jump in for Milan on next week because Pec Cacuzisto just cancelled the Schumann concerto, unless it, of course, that's my favorite piece, I love it." Then I started studying it. So I've learned it in six days, and forgot it also, maybe in ten days. So that's the only concerto I studied after I was 30. Or the other concertos, I learned basically until I was 22, 23. And this is the key. If things are in my fingers, in my nerve systems, before I was 25, it is really different than if I would need to play a piece that I learned after I was 30. But is there a big change, you know, just physically speaking and the physicality of playing? How have you noticed maybe you're playing something that you did at 21 differently now? You know, if we have a recording session, where we have to have like, twice, four hours a day, and every note has to be on the maximum intensity, attention, emotion, and collaboration with the others, I think it's more tiring. It's more tiring. Here I have to play every day, 30, 40, 50 minutes of concertos. And then, of course, it's impossible to rehearse two, three days before. So this was a collaboration, and this project was planned for two years. Because we have this long weekend, May 1st is a holiday and Saturday Sunday. And with all the other orchestras, we are rehearsing and playing all these concertos in other cities in Hungary. We already started it. And there's one exception. It's the first violin concerto by Bella Bartol, because that piece we play with the student orchestra of the list academy. And I was very happy to get my good old friend Michael Stern to come and play with the orchestra and work with the students, because it's so important that they must know him. Yeah, and what a showcase. It's seven orchestras, isn't it? Nine concertos in three days. From a player's point of view, how do you look after yourself, playing the violin that much in a short space of time? How do you protect yourself? Yeah, I will have my genius physiotherapist. What is important to have these breaks between? If there was one concert where I played two concertos after each other, that's much more dangerous than when I have several hours to recover, so to say. Once I remember I played for my students, Chakowski and Brams concertos after each other in my class with our pianist. And I didn't wait a minute. And then my pianist also cut the orchestra parts. So I didn't have those little 30, 40 second breaks when I could shake my hand. That's really tough. And if I have two hours between or three hours between concerts, then it's much, much easier. So when we say dangerous, can you feel it in your hands? Is there a growing tightness? What does it actually feel like? Yes, definitely. Dangerous. And I tell all my students, all Isaac Stern also said, don't practice too much. Listen to it's a parallel one what he says. I also share three, four hours a day where you need to really focus very well. And then it means maybe it takes four and a half or five hours, but don't spend more time with violin on one day. If there's a student who says I practiced six, seven, eight hours a day, I say it's too much. Too much because you think they're not actually concentrating or too much just physically it's dangerous. Both. If someone has a really good hands and good, good hold and no tension physically, then it might not be that bad. But it's actually not that easy to find such violinists. Usually if I start teaching anyone in a masterclass or in my own class, it's very rare that I'm not talking about how to be more relaxed, more flexible, less tension. So in terms of the other side, not playing the violin, do you have days where you don't play? Yes, yes, you know what counts the most. How was your childhood? How did your parents support? How did your friends? And of course the teacher and the school support you. And nowadays if I if there's a day when I can be with family and friends or traveling or so many things to arrange, we have four children, a string quartet, festivals, competitions, masterclasses, and we also have a farm and arts farm where we start to do more and more things. And little these things create many times days when I don't practice and I love it. So what would be your advice to young violinists listening then? If they're taking on the big repertoire and perhaps the temptation is to just go big or go home? What would be your advice to a young player taking on this kind of repertoire? Tomorrow you will never have more time. You can never say that, "Oh, I will practice not so much today, but maybe not so much tomorrow." And in three days I will practice three times as much. It's like brushing your teeth. You cannot brush your teeth only every three days, three times longer. And in long term you will never have more time. As I said, if I played half of these concertos only after I was 25, I couldn't do this thing. And 25 is quite late. So we are really like, like, like professional sportsmen. So whatever happens at the early years starting 4, 5, 6, and then having discipline and courage to continue, we need always the support of a parent and the teacher in the school system and grandparents and neighbors. And step by step, it's another thing. If you're, if you happen to become kind of child prodigy age of whatever these days, 9, 10, 11, 12, and then they don't step on every step, and can be also dangerous. So step by step as early as possible and as a very well planned everyday work. Like if someone wants to be in a fleet and going to the Olympics, they have to do it every day. And they might have one week of per year in one in the summer and three days in the winter. That was my life. Well, this kind of athleticism, we see not just in May, but then come the latest edition of your Ilona Fahir Violin Competition, I think it's a sixth edition, and that held a week before the summer fest in July. Let's talk about the competition first. How does this competition work? How does it sort of compare to other competitions around the world? You know, we were focusing on the opening the world for Hungarian violinists, Hungarian students, because in Hungary there was never one international violin competition that was arranged for young violinists under 20. Now the competition is under for violinists under 22. So every two years there's the Ilona Fahir competition named after another Hungarian violinist who was student of Hu Baye and she was an amazing teacher. There was one violin professor who became world famous by teaching beginners, teaching violinists from the first steps. And this is very rare, I have to say, and that's why we are very proud of her. And it's a fantastic thing that someone like Ilona Fahir could become world famous by teaching the first steps of violinists. So I think this is the most important, that young children have to have, they have to see the world as much as they can. And if they come to Ilona Fahir competition, they meet with their generation the best from all over the world. They meet wonderful jury members and also Festival Academy offers master classes for these kids. So whoever comes to the Ilona Fahir competition gets automatic master classes. And it is a really sort of unique hybrid, the summer fest that follows the competition. Because as you say, the master classes sort of sit alongside these epic concerts. So there's this sort of quite unique exchange, I think, between sort of student and master, young players and the mentors. Just take us into that sort of dynamic, I suppose, between you and the students, Maxine Vengerov and the students, what does the dialogue look like? Yeah, well, Maxine, last time played the Mendelssohn Violin Concerto with the student orchestra. And the way he rehearsed, then we went deep into the work, was very unique and very unforgettable and very inspiring for every member of the orchestra, not only the violinists, I have to say, and then we played Mendelssohn octet together. Then he was giving a long, lovely lecture or open round table conversation. But anyone else who comes like Ilya Gringo, for example, Kiril Gerst, Alena Baja, they will all teach and play open, and every rehearsal is free. And then sometimes they have more time to play together a movement or two with the students as well. But at the festival academy, well, I cannot forget mentioning that every evening, there are the incredible gypsy players, or folk bands, or dance parties, where you can learn the Chardash, right? We learn always Chardash of Hungarian dance, but we never dance. It's not that difficult, actually, it's quite easy. And then you can feel the spirit from inside the dance, whenever you will play again, you will understand. But when you say that, they're learning, the students are learning to dance, not to play in a dance, like they are physically moving in the space as well. Yeah, and we will have a master class on baroque dances as well. And this will be very important to understand. When we play Almond Kurán, Sarabanji, Glour, Gavot, Bure, of the Bach solos and others, mostly the part it does, it is so important to understand what steps does it need? What time does it need to do those steps? Of course, it was a stylistic dance. The baroque dance masters didn't play that, necessarily Bach, when they were teaching the dances, but still to understand it, it's very important. And we will have a baroque dance master class during the summer academy as well, summer-a-fest. So, to dance is to play and to play is to dance in a way? Yeah, well, that's what I teach, or to sing. So, every music has to sing or dance. There is not any music, which where both can be forgotten. And how new is this to some of the artists attending? Some of the students. I mean, what countries are represented? Where, who is attending the summer-fest as these artists? Young artists? Well, what I can be very proud of is that earlier, the numbers are being filled, how do you say? So, over 60 students applied while the deadline is in May. And usually the applications are, you know, they are done the last weeks or something. So, we are really, and from these 60, there are almost half of them are the best quality ever we experience. So, definitely we can say that now students from all over the world, all coming from Japan, China, anywhere of the American continent and everywhere from Europe. So, sometimes there are 35 countries, students are coming. And over 100 students are selected. You know, sometimes the selection is going, we say, until 100. And then we still get some great players. How could we say no? And how do they react when you have such an international group of students and they're looking at, say, Hungarian gypsy playing? How does the sort of reaction look like? An interaction? Yeah, can I say they are crying and they are dancing and they are singing and having party. We are talking about the restaurant next to the list academy or sometimes the main square in front of the list academy where we also had some folk dance party with a master telling what to do. So, they just love it and they, I know since 2016, lifelong friendships even marriages happen. And so, is there something unique to Hungarian training? If we're sort of talking about the way that music education is in Hungary, for example, that the cultural scene, what does that look like in Hungary? I have to say that unfortunately, there is a very famous fame of great and big and famous to be afraid of Hungarian masters. I'm honestly proud of these people, but not proud of that the fact that the students were really afraid of them and some of them were making them cry every time. So, I try to be as inspiring if I need to be as serious, but not to be tough. I think we can reach the same special result without tearing them into small parts. But do you think there is something sort of uniquely Hungarian about, whether it's the emphasis on gypsy playing dance? Is that specifically Hungarian? What I would link to is a much more serious role and line. Let's go back from the 20th century through Bartok and Kodaj and Vayner, because Vayner was the greatest inspiration, for example, for the first part of 20th century. Talking about the great conductors, Fricja, Dorati, Ormandi, Szel, Kertis and Scholty, these conductors were all studying from Vayner. And Vayner's teachers can be linked to Franz Liszt. And after Franz Liszt, we can go through Cherny and Beethoven to Heiden and then where are we already? And this is something more deeper and more serious than to just think about the good old tradition of gypsy and folk music, which is a lot of fun in many ways. Very, very inspiring and very important. But we are proud to this other link, which is very, very common. And how much do you think that Hungarian association, I mean, the list of names that you gave there, just of conduct as alone is extraordinary when you think of those of Hungarian heritage? How much do you think that heritage and that link is acknowledged in the wider world? I noticed that you've used the phrase online, let the world know. Does the world know? And if not, why not? There's a good example. If someone knows a lot of classical music, that's definitely the Jewish Kordak. And we had a lot of great time lately with him. We just celebrated his "Handrius Berthay". It's quite amazing. And when I was telling him my project on these concertos and then I told him that, did you know that all of these concertos were actually written for Hungarian violinists? He said, "Oh, really? Oh wow, yeah, that's true." Yeah, but so he knew it and he didn't realize it. And that's one thing I want the word to know. And the other thing is the incredible, important role of Joseph Boom in Hungarian violin playing. Because if we talk about France's list, inspiring the great generations of pianists later on Giza Anda. and the Zifra and Fischer and Tomas Vashari, Peter Franco, we know about it. And we know about the famous Hungarian violinist from the 20th century, but when I put together the names of the 19th century violinists and I tell their teachers name, then not everybody is aware of the importance of that period and that had to be like that in order to reach such a fantastic 20th century of violin playing. And I'm currently working on the 21st century. The story continues and at the violin channel, we'll live stream this three day violin conchetto marathon in May plus two mezzo and Medici TV concert films will be recorded. And then the 11th summer fest runs from the 3rd of July to the 13th, while the Ilona for here International Violin Competition runs concurrently. That's from the 24th of June to the 5th of July. All of this with the fabulous Festival Academy Budapest and Barnabash Kalamann. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Hope to see you now in the next course. Thanks for downloading this episode of the Gramophone Podcast. I really hope you enjoyed it. If you did, we'd be hugely grateful if you could leave us a rating or review hit subscribe and follow us on social media. And if you want to explore classical music in even greater depth, we are a monthly magazine too, packed with interviews, features and loads of new recording reviews. Not to mention at our website too, which has plenty of playlists and special features, including the occasional outing for a certain pepper. Head to gramophone.co.uk. Huge thanks to the Festival Academy Budapest for making this episode possible and to hunger it on for allowing us to use this sparkling recording of Bartok's Violin Concerto number two. Appreciate your company and be ready for another Gramophone Podcast next week.