Season 2 - Episode 3 - Climate Impacts and Rising Insurance Costs

Good afternoon everyone and welcome to perspective on sustainable development episode three. I am your host Chris Whitehead and if anyone watching I'm video right this second you can actually also notice that I am choosing to wear my Yankees hoodie today. I'm out of mourning largely because it seems like every player they have is dropping so they need some type of insurance policy some. I don't know backup land for what's going on and it's a hard blue shoes to take away into what we're going to be talking about today. We're going to be talking about climate change again today and how specifically it impacts the insurance industry and how those impacts and associated changes can be passed down to consumers. With the rising climate impacts all of us have witnessed around the world over the last couple of years and stronger storms that were frankly still leaning out from a lot of areas. You have to stop and think what are these rising costs going to do for future projects for taxpayers how we can be able to get through this and what type of changes are going to be in store. There's a lot of a lot of misinformation and frankly this information out there on the topic so I want to bring on a couple of experts to just tell us what's going on how insurance companies monitor these things and try to change their insurance plans up accordingly. I'm sure I'm going to learn quite a bit and I'm sure you are as well and just before we get started as well as wanted to note that I'm constantly amazed by the notes I get from listeners to this program over last year or so and we're currently up to 59 countries in Asia Africa all over the world so those out there listening I see I appreciate other feedback we've been getting and we're going to continue on this project. But without any further ado I'd like to bring on Justin Ross from how to array my parent from Africa mobile. Can you just start give us a quick high love on your background and how you got into climate change work. Yeah, my name is Justin Roth. I have about a decade of experience within meteorology beginning my career in the broadcast sector so the weather guy that you saw on TV that was with me and then I made the pivot into insurance specifically for re insurance company EMC read from there I moved to American integrity insurance and now I work at a brokerage from how to read. Where insurance companies are clients and a lot of my work within the R&B department is involved with perils and understanding exposures and understanding how the models work and how they affect our customers which are the client are the insurance. Insurance companies in general and then obviously climate change kind of always wrapped around in that. Well fantastic and thanks again for joining my parent. Hi, I had Justin hi Chris on my parent I've been in the insurance industry most of my 40 years career but I spent some time with outside and consulting for a little bit I currently work for FM. We rebranded is FM in July of last year from FM global. I was on my chemical engineer and I spent the first half of my career on the risk controls, so it's over to be in a broker from after 9/11 until last year where I joined FM and I help lead our renewable energy practice mainly ensuring property insurance for those projects. Interesting interesting and actually what I haven't had a chance to tell Mike yet to he and I apparently have a mutual friend to a new Jersey show where I heard you guys played basketball together quite a bit going back ways to find small world. Yeah, it is. I guess just jump in guys want to get started talking about alignment impacts themselves might just be me but it's they seem to be increasing and how often they're happening has severe and just spreading to different geographies that they hadn't been before haven't been as big as an issue before. Can we talk a little bit about climate change climate change trends what you've seen. Certainly living in most insurance companies are that climate change is real take out political aspect for a second and they understand because they see it in their losses and you can't deny the numbers. Now you get to the tricky part of trends and frequency and there's certainly some trends that we can really look at and for the rest of certain perils we understand that hurricanes obviously thriving warm conditions so the warmer the sea surface temperatures are the Gulf of Mexico or both America and the the mean development region of the Atlantic we're going to see stronger hurricanes that way. So that's certainly something and then there's also for every one degree Celsius of war me within the atmosphere we see seven percent more rain development from any types of storm so that's your standard thunderstorm that comes its way during the spring but also your hurricanes which just kind of be asked for rates the flooding situations that we've seen over the past couple of years now certainly a lot more flooding events. And the trends tend to stick with looking at you break it down between like an end of pattern we look at El Nino La Nena and the neutral cycle you see you certainly see a trend that we're beginning to see more La Nena's and neutral cycles which under the most developmental conditions of low intent to enhance hurricane activity over the Atlantic base and so there's certainly some alarming things that we can look at when it comes to those trends. That's interesting I have a couple of follows and mine also but Mike do you have anything to add there to. Yeah I agree with what Justin's noted I would say that you know that the hurricanes are more intense and part of that's because of the warmer oceans we're also seeing hail more frequent than we have before but also a lot of more projects that are in harm's way some of the projects that we ensure or look to ensure are in areas where there was farmland before and there wasn't good data before so sometimes it's about increased activity but sometimes it's because there's more more stuff in harm's way and I would also note that you know as far as well we'll get to that later on the insurance aspects. Absolutely I am definitely want to get to that too but follow up first and we both kind of alluded to this but I think especially Justin out of all the increasing climate impacts around the world one of the ones that I spend most time thinking about frankly worries me the most are those cloud burst events the 10 inches of rain in nine hours or those insane things that keep on happy. And it's been any time that you've been following that would actually worry you the most or might actually be most potentially impactful for an insurance industry as they try to actually map out their plans. Speaking of thunderstorm activity in general the US industries saw $50 billion plus in insurance losses when it comes to just ss events or severe collector storms and that's happened now the past couple of years and it's not something that was really a concern in years past where hurricanes were really the driving force but you get so many multiple small thunderstorm events. It adds up really quickly now the one thing I will note in the US market flooding is not a covered payroll under most insurance companies so if my house gets flooded for whatever reason and that's the only thing that happened it's either going to be out of my pocket or it's out of the NFIP or the national flood insurance program. Interesting interesting Mike yeah let me step in on that on the flood point I think that's that's true on the residential side on the commercial side for insurance. We do normally cover flood to a certain sub limit subject to deductibles but it is significantly I agree completely that it's become a greater concern on the thunderstorm side I love the point just made about. The 50 billion of severe convective storm losses where that's become a much greater component of the overall cat exposure that insurance companies are paying there is a big distinction between and on the weather events and wildfire to be with respect to. residential risks versus commercial risks. And there's challenges for the entire industry with these. And commercial insurers are comfortable ensuring tornado risks. It's because tornadoes are normally local and they have a limited damage path of what they hit. But it's a little, it is growing greatly because we're seeing more of these tornadoes and Justin feel free if you'd like to add more comments to that. Yeah, I mean, I want to hit on actually a topic that my kid on earlier when it comes to population. And that's particular when they talk about hurricanes. But obviously we've seen that the US population is moving quite a bit. One is moving more into the rural areas outside of town. So there's a very common description in our industry where it's the expanding bulls eye effect where that tornado path that went through that town in 1950 caused let's say $1 million with the damage. But now due to the growth of that town that one tornado that was everything was exactly the same. It's our population. Now it costs let's say $50 billion depending on what structures have built there. And then we also see people, a lot of people moving down to the coastal areas of Florida, the Louisiana, Texas, wherever. Because people like that born-beach type atmosphere. But they don't think of the risks that for natural disasters that may occur. Interesting. Interesting. I think it's a good spot probably too. Just to start talking about fundamentally how do insurance companies think of climate change and how do they factor that into their policies? Yeah it's a little bit of a loaded question. So insurance companies, yours, standard that you would get your homeowners or auto through for residential. Those insurance companies have to usually file some type of rate filing within the state. And every state is different. So if I want to hike up my insurance rates I have to provide reason to know why that is. So putting the climate change into an insurer's kind of domain is really tough because you have to get approval from some of the levels. However, on the reinsurance side they can do whatever they want because reinsurance is a less regulated industry. So for those of your listeners who don't know what that is, reinsurance is just insurance for insurance companies. So when company A sees a $50 billion of loss just like if your home sees a large loss you call insurance to get some money back. Well, insurance companies do the same thing and so essentially to keep the market stable and we don't see so many insolvencies. But the reinsurance companies can run the data and then put on additional loads and I've worked at a reinsurance company and I've done that before so I know it's perfectly accepted and a number of reinsurance companies do it because they see the numbers in their loss and they want to count for that. Let me just add to that that there's a lot of dynamics that are going on in the insurance market overall like the fact that a lot of the cat exposure in the US has been subsidized by non-catex exposed to the cat exposed areas. So it was really underpriced insurance in places like Florida in California and the coastal or I live in New Jersey. That's changing and then what insurance companies are trying to do is allocate the correct amount of premium for each given area and that's challenging because it hurts the clients that are paying it but that's really more how it should be but it's sticker shock for those the customers in those areas where the insurance companies can do it. So we've seen in a flight of some in home especially on the residential side and just to talk about this better than I can. The of insurers that were in California but can't raise the rates as just had mentioned and that were in Florida but want to raise the rates above a certain area and and aren't able to because Florida has there's different steps the company that the states have taken to protect the policyholders from increase from the increased rates. They've set up government aid insurance programs that take some of the risk into their schemes at the cost of the tax payers and they there are some companies and we do this too on the commercial side where you you might get a risk-based premium credit if you build your projects more resolutely. That's one way to do this but it's not it's not being universally done and it's not that easy to do. Justin? Yeah I like how you put that you know we call them like insurance of the last resort right so like the biggest one that comes to mind obviously for everyone's probably citizens in Florida but a lot of other states had these fair plans as well California as a fair plan. You can google and you can find there's multiple fair plans in multiple different states. The problem with this is that as a state you don't want that citizens or that fair plan to have a lot of people because if something really bad does happen is coming out of the taxpayers' dollars so you don't want to have a large insure last resort. It was a it was a number it was a couple years ago where citizens in Florida was the largest carrier of insurance in Florida. That's not a good thing. We want to keep those numbers down low. Yeah and further to that I mean I think most people believe that citizens is an adequately funded so that if you do have if we have a series of events or a large event that that's going to end up being something that's paid by the government after overall. Yeah and to hit on that exact same point they're also extreme. The rates are beyond low compared to what they should be in the market. Exactly. That's that's very interesting but I guess well that's all very interesting for that reasons but no matter how this really takes out and no matter what state model is being used it sounds like because the climate change impacts are increasing and damages associated are increasing. One way or another this has to get passed down to the rate page. Yeah I mean then the end someone has to pay for it right so in this case it's eventually we'll shake out where the consumers or the policy holders are the ones paying it because insurance companies and re insurance companies just like any other business is a business in the end and they're in business to make money. Yeah further to that it's just that real struggles right now with California insurance with the wildfires and I know that it's specifically related to weather events but they're not able to raise the rates to the point where that it can be profitable. I've heard people say that insurers are paying out two dollars in losses to one dollar premium and they can subsidize a little bit for you know to be in California versus other states but that's why companies are pulling out of California and similarly why they pulled out of Florida and it could happen in other states too. That's a great takeaway to my next question on here and this is interesting for me because you both come from different perspectives on the topic. Have you seen instances where companies or projects decide to not build in a certain area because of the insurance risk or the insurance dollars associated with it? Yeah we are seeing that for renewable projects in Texas in particular. Texas is I shouldn't say just renewables that really it's mainly solar projects. So solar projects have a lot of glass and these projects are being built where there's cheap land and where there's a lot of sun and Texas fills the bill for both things but there's also hail there and hail is like falling rocks it's going to break glass so there are some areas where the projects are not resilient enough to hand build even a one in five-year event or one in ten-year event and so we as the insurance community and others are starting to talk to customers about do you really want to build it here? It can maybe you should build this in a less hail prone area or you can build it more resiliently and there's several different ways you can do it thicker glass different glass stowing capability of making the glass at an angle so that when the hail hits it deflects off and this can be effective in mitigating loss but that's um it's not happening yet in anywhere except for in Texas but in time I think it's going to happen more interesting yeah I think of two things when it comes to this one is barrier islands why are we building on barrier islands and why are people insuring them? The barrier island is there for reason to prevent or to slow progression of wind and things like that so um my house is right on a barrier island then I'm taking the full breath that hurricane. And then the second one I think of is wildfire and California. And we build a number of communities right next to very well-forested areas. In other words, a whole lot of fuel for a fire. And we don't put defensible spaces between the houses and the forest. And that's where large losses come into play. I keep going back to where I keep going back to where it's interesting because frankly this is all interesting for me. But Jesse, you just described a lot of what I would call objective things to take into account while you're making a planning choice while you're citing as an example. Is our more things like that starting to be taking into account by the right people as we see impacts now? Is this being noticed? And it just depends on the insurance company at the same time because if my insurance company doesn't give me a credit for dispensable spaces in California for wildfire, then why am I going to spend money to do that when my insurance premium doesn't change? Now, if I can get a $5,000-$10,000 credit or for whatever if I put in all these dispensable spaces, okay, well then it makes it worth it. But you really need to see the action one by the rating agencies. So your AMBASS, your demo tech come to mind and the rating agencies will essentially force your insurance companies to make those changes. Let me add on to that too that you know sometimes the building in the resilient are making it more resilient. There's a cost to that and you know we get that that question from clients all the time. How much will I save if I build this more resiliently? And to be fair to the client it's a not sometimes a relatively small amount of benefit to the amount of money they're going to outlay for it. That's one thing that FM is trying to do. We issue credits to our clients specifically for resiliency purposes. So that if we have a good year we give money back for the clients to invest in resiliency and that's better for us because our clients have smaller and fewer losses. Let me bet for me too. I actually live in New Jersey as well. Insurance is high on everything. So that's actually nice to hear Mike. That kind of leads to my next question. You both kind of alluded to various parts of the country having their own models. Is there a state or a couple of states you could think of that handle this interesting cutting edge way? Well most insurance companies use two primary models when it comes to looking at catastrophe risk. Moody's RMS and Varys previously or formerly AIR. And those are going to be the primary models that most insurance companies use when it comes to looking at their insurance losses and things like that. So those are built by companies with multiple research teams and multiple people looking at the various intersecuses of barrels and losses that we don't necessarily don't have a lot of time to do at an insurance company or an insurance company even at the brokerage level. So there's not much that can be done there. But there are certain states that maybe do things in a better way than other states. The one that comes in mind is Louisiana is doing a decent job when it comes to keeping people out of that insurer of last resort. And I think Florida would do well to model that as well. But once again it's up to the states. Let me just add on the modeling I agree with Justin about the two primary models. But the models do a pretty good job on flood, earthquake and hurricane. But they're not as well developed on severe convective storm. And that's a problem. And especially and for for someone who works in the renewables industry it's really not very good at all for those models for solar risks in a particular because they don't have a construction class for it. And they also, if you're doing an RMS or an AIR model and you have a thousand acre site and you put it into your model it comes up as one data point. So it's like a skyscraper of solar farms. It's just not indicative. There are some specialty models that are being put out by the likes of ABS and VDE and others that are a little better. But just to give an indication there was a large event that happened in March 2024 to a project in Fort Bend, Texas where the insurance model, the sophisticated insurance model predicted something less than 20 million and the loss was about 100 million. So and this is not uncommon. So the modeling needs to get a lot better. And there are reasons why there isn't focus in these areas because there just wasn't enough. The models that Justin was talking about are mostly for commercial risks for buildings for a lot of manufacturing facilities that are more common build construction. The market hasn't gone to build anything specific to the industry yes sir. Okay. Yeah and to add on to Mike's point there. The hurricane model from both companies, RMS and various are kind of the gold standard because they're updated every two years. That's required by the Florida Commission. So the state of Florida requires that and that that SCS model he is 100% right. Both of them are extremely outdated and you think of all those SCS events that have happened in less than 10 years. You know you think about the Jaclyn tornado, Tuscaloosa outbreak, the Ayurveda deratio, all that claim data, all that weather data is not in those models right now. I just just was talking and I started thinking about the cuts that have been proposed on the federal level to critical agencies like like actually Noah and a few others that help with these models and try to do better at predicting what could be coming through. I don't want this to get political by any stretch but can you both speak to potential impacts of what those budget cuts might actually affect? Yeah I mean it's hard to say you know they literally just happen so it's hard to say or even see an impact right now. The one thing I will mention is that every private company when I say that I've talked about the weather channel that maybe you have the app on your phone, acuweather maybe you're googling to see what the temperatures are in your area and bearish in our mess the models that we use in our industry. Every single private company uses Noah National Weather Service data. It's the most tough to date data there is, it's the most historically significant data there is and all that is done by the National Weather Service. Will that stay around I sure hope so? Could we see issues when it comes to giving data out to the private sector like us? It's hard to say right now but that just kind of gives you an idea of how important the National Weather Service really is. I'll add to that and I know I'm being specific to renewables but these solar projects they are told or they have a lot of exposed risks this particular issue of hail and what they do to try and protect those assets is juxto at a high angle as I mentioned before. Really really reliant on National Weather Service information. You know, these companies like DTN as to Justin's point everybody relies on National Weather Service data. If that data is no longer available I worry that some of these clients that want to are looking to be do the right thing and be defensively stowed in advance of the storm won't have the appropriate warning to be able to do that leaving their projects very well exposed and we've seen projects that don't stow have significantly more damage. I guess the follow-up from Mike on this speaking about renewables development could something like this be another deterrent for project developers looking to expand within the country if they don't have reliable information I would think they'd be less likely to build in certain areas as you mentioned before. You know what you would think maybe Chris but I think that the insurance is not at the top of the list on what they're looking for but where it could be a difference is on the cost of the insurance. So insurers are now trying to get more sophisticated and take into account the resilience of the projects that they're being built and the resilience of the defensive mechanisms that they have. We can't as insurers give as much credit to the site being able to effectively stow if they don't believe they are going to have the information to know to effectively stow in advance of the storm. So that's going to cause and the the cost for insurance for these projects is significant it's about 30% of their operating expenses which is much greater. greater than a lot of other industries that sometimes are in the less than 10% range. Going back to something we talked about before, I was just thinking about how we price out the impacts of these storms and what exactly is meant by $100 billion storm as an example. Just from my experience in project management, you first give a budgetary estimate of what the high side is going to be, but then oftentimes as you do the project, it comes in, or could do under that, is the $100 billion project potentially really only a $70 billion one. I say only half smiling out of the back of my head here, but how do you come about those numbers? Because I never quite understood that process. When you get those statistics and things like that, we work within our industry on return periods, a $100-500-acre event issue we're already alluding to. That's what it's alluding to there. Now, that's kind of a tricky way to put things. Basically, a $100-500-year flood event is a $0.2 chance of a flood at that magnitude or greater occurring in any giving year, if that makes sense. Essentially, what we're looking at is there's a $0.2 percentage of that flood happening. You often see on the news of a $100-year rain storm event or hurricane or something like that, it's a percentage gain. That's all it is. Let me add to that. I think if you go back a few years ago and we had Hurricane Harvey come through, that was a $100-year event, but then we had another $100-year event after that the following year. Part of that is because the idea of $100-year flood, $100-year event, is backward looking. We think all of us on this call and many listening would agree that the climate is changing and we are seeing more frequent storm activity. We only can use the data that we have, but the data is changing, so that's a really challenging thing to deal with. That's a great point, Mike. When we look at the models that we use, as he already alluded to, they're very much retrospectively looking at things and then providing us analytical output. The modeling companies do their best to simulate the potential events, but the data, they're working on, is historical data. There are some companies out there that are trying to help clients when building projects on looking forward on what the climate is going to look at for the lifetime of the project. This is Beyond Renobles. This is everything. Swiss Remunickery have some data that says, "All right, based on our information and trends, we think that you're going to need to build to this type of resiliency going forward as opposed to what you've done historically." We don't know if it's right, but it's certainly a step in the right direction. We're starting to get up on time here a little bit. Just have a couple more questions. As both of you, I think, no. I do environmental justice and climate change work professionally and spend a lot of times thinking about the kind of set of climate justice. And part of that is based on the principle that overburden areas get more than their first share of climate impacts and often don't have the capabilities and actual resiliency to adequately respond to those impacts with the costs of insurance rising and basically inevitably being passed down to the consumer. I would think that this is only going to be more of a climate justice issue as time goes on. I think that's a fair statement to make. The places that we are seeing extreme events right now, you think of Florida, you think of Louisiana when it comes to hurricane, you think of California when it comes to wildfires, the Midwest in general when it comes to SCS events. Those places that are already feeling an impact, it's only going to get potentially worse if we see a continuously warming climate. And it's something to keep in mind if you live in a poor area or a very small town within impacts of these perils and it could certainly impact your premium and eventually your pocketbook. Yeah, and I agree with Justin. I do further to that. There are some areas that are exposed to climate activity that are more further, more where people are more wealthy. Like you see in Florida, coastal Florida, it has a lot of people that have expensive houses there and all along the coast where the beach is and certainly somewhere that wildfires have been. But a lot of the activity for climate is in areas where land is cheap because the climate activity is frequent. That continues to happen so there's going to continue to be issues with growing issues with environmental justice for that. I don't actually recall who was talking about this earlier but one last thing I want to ask you guys, I understand that you have to explicitly have the type of impact spelled out in your insurance to be protected for that. Because Justin was saying most plans don't account for flood damage unless you have flood damage. Is there an overarching umbrella plan for project here that you can get to better protect yourself your project for these issues or is it or is still the best way to go about this? I think I need this that I just sit down with an agent or whoever and try to do your best to minimize risk. Yeah, I mean it's going to depend on your interest company obviously and what kind of their policies that they offer. But I mean if you ask your insurance agent or whoever it ends up being in that you want some flood coverage, I guarantee that they're going to sell to you. They'll gladly take your money if you want more insurance. They'll do the proper risk assessment and they'll provide a premium out to you but you really just have to ask. I live in Kentucky and we're close enough to the new metric vault where I wanted a earthquake coverage for my house. So I requested in and it's on my policy right now. Yeah, and further to that I think that in the commercial space it's one of the jobs the broker does is they do some of this modeling using the RMS and and a various models but they also do more sophisticated analytics for larger clients to establish what type of limits they should buy. It's not just the limits they should buy but also the retention so they should take based on. There's a lot of different information that goes into figuring out what's the what's we do what we expect the right number it is to buy and part of that's history too right so the models may not be perfect but if you've seen you know that clients that have had $50 million SCS losses it's probably a good idea to buy try to buy that much coverage if you can. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, and I think we've seen also a lot of insurance companies really really look into their RCA's or re insurance cost allocation numbers. How much is re insuring this one individual policy how much is that going to cost me and I'm making money on it and that's something we've really seen at the broker's level. A lot of insurance companies really dig into those numbers because if I can eliminate or non-renew 1000 policies but decrease my PMLs by $15 million that's worth it for an insurance company. Yeah, I think what you're getting a lot getting alluding to is aggregation or risk and giving in a given area and insurers do a draw are doing a better job and looking more carefully at that over time so that they don't want to get hit. It's a bigger issue for earthquakes and when when storms than it is for SCS events but it's becoming a lot bigger on SCS events because as Justin mentioned we're seeing many more SCS events being a bigger component overall of the the cat exposure insurance face. That's one of the last questions in every episode I like to ask the experts who come on if they have any recommendations for younger people or students who might be interested in these topics want to learn more or potentially want to also choose it as a profession. So if you have any suggestions for references? Yeah, I mean feel free to I talked to at least one or two students every week in regards to this industry. And so obviously talking to industry professionals, but I guarantee there are internships out there that help you kind of gain a food and understand the insurance industry. Most people don't go to school for insurance specifically. I have a degree in meteorology and I never thought I'd work in insurance, but I love what I do. So just gaining an understanding of this industry and all this complexity set it has. Yeah, I agree with what Justin said too. And it would say overall the insurance industry is really an underappreciated industry for a place to work. I've loved working here too. I left insurance 30 years ago and got back in because it was it was a really good industry to learn and you learn a lot about different industries, different things to do. As far as other things young people can do, you know, they can reach out to me too. I took a lot of talking with younger people, but it's really interesting how the development of the people in the insurance industry are I'm I mentioned before I'm a chemical engineer. I never would have thought I was going to be insurance. Justin's immediate was a meteorologist or meteorology major. There's more and more people in meteorology coming into the insurance field because weather extreme weather is becoming a much breaker component of insurance. So and I would also suggest you know, reach out to people, make connections, go on to LinkedIn, listen to podcasts. There's a lot of information out there. And there's a lot of opportunity as well. I think that's great. I want to also offer you guys each opportunity to give any final thoughts or part of the thought you might have on the topics we've been talking about. Justin, if you want to go first or Mike. Yeah, sure. You know, we've obviously talked about a number different kind of sector sectors when it comes to insurance climate change, whether in general. You know, for just your standard person's listening out there for knowledge base as I've already hit it. Hit it. You know, be aware of what heroes can affect your home or your car. Are you live and make sure you're in short for them. I get it. Insurance can be expensive. I pay it myself. But in the end. It's going to be worth it. You see a lot of people from hurricane, clean in the carolinas in the near Asheville that experienced extreme flooding from that event. You see people in California, and the wildfires and those people who are uninsured. You know, that's straight out your pocket. And most people can't afford to replace a home in office contents. And I would I would just add that you want to think strategically about, you know, how you buy your insurance, you know, it's there's there's a lot of and the insurance community overall gets a gets a bad name sometimes because they don't pay out a claim, but but they're protecting themselves too. And as Justin mentioned, insurance or in business to make money to, you know, so it's and I it's a good it's smart to understand how your coverage works and what you have and what you don't have. And most policyholders don't do that on the on the resident still side or the customer side. And frankly, the industry doesn't do a good job of explaining to clients. How their policies work. That is not to put another plug in that's one area where I was always very impressed with FM because we sit down with our policyholders. Explain to them how their coverage works and often the client will come back to us and say, Hey, I don't have coverage for this. How is there a way to do that and we'll try to do that in many cases. Interesting. Well, thank you both. I have definitely enjoyed this hour and as I expected learn right a bit. So you definitely will welcome back anytime you want to chat and I've been extremely proud of the alumni network. I've developed on this program. So all those try to stay connected, go to dinners and stuff and just try to work on projects together. Because as I've found over the years, if you find something you're passionate about and start collaborating with people, you end up working to get on other things. So I look forward to that. Hopefully and that. Thank you very much. [BLANK_AUDIO]