Season 1: Life as a Junior Trader at Onyx Commodities

Your currently listening to Onyx and the World of Oil Derivatives. I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce you to Onyx Insight, a reporting and analysis service that focuses particularly on the oil swaps market. The service comes in a form of daily WhatsApp updates, trading window reviews, monthly reports and liquidity and volatility assessments. All our information is derived directly from our trading floor of Onyx Commolities, the number one liquidity provider of oil swaps globally. There's no service like ours providing expert analysis across the barrel and reporting in real time for those of real skin in the game. To find out more information and sign up to our free trial, visit our website at www.OnyxCapturalAdviserie.com or Google OnyxAdviserie Insight. Also, please be sure to check out our LinkedIn, Twitter and Facebook. Good afternoon and welcome to the Onyx Commolities podcast. I'm Alex Clayton. I'm Nathaniel Loo. Hi, I'm Anagic Barty. Today, basically, we want to cover some topics related to basically being a junior at Onyx. What the experience looks like. We're going to cover a few different topics. Admin, exposure to trading, culture on the trading floor. And then lastly, we want to touch on what the progression looks like as a junior trader. So I guess we'll kick off with Admin. I mean, I'm sort of past it now, but I don't know if you could give us a quick overview of what Admin looks like in the junior role. Yeah, I think probably in the best position to talk about this one. I've been at Onyx for three months, currently on the light hand desk. Yeah, I think as a junior coming in, I definitely wasn't naive enough to think it wasn't going to add an element to it. You know, the only day you were junior, you're coming in, you've got to learn your trade, you've got to do your time. You're not necessarily going to be ready to trade, which is a good part about roles like Onyx, certain trading hours of marketing. So they're necessarily going to look more for the raw talent rather than the trading experience. But then obviously with that, you have to learn the ropes for a bit. They train within the higher line. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and the trade for one. Yeah, exactly to create the traders and not their own image. I don't know if that's right, but yeah, to train traders in house. I mean, however on that flip side, it was definitely a lot more added and intensified I thought it would be. And I don't know, maybe to give a brief overview, maybe around my day or what I do, like I come in, I mean, I get up like four days, I can get in the office for like six of a minute as this winter. Yeah. So I'm coming in from Essex. Yeah. And then I have to do the BOD, should be beginning a day processes, which is to set up, check the position, like make sure the position's right to where I see it, what a death should be, set up the P&L for the day, make sure there's-- Should clarify that you're saying the calculation. Yeah, the calculation. You know, the calculation. Yeah, exactly. So the calculation. So, you know, as soon as the senior traders come in, they're ready to trade, you know, even just think as Minu was setting up the senior traders PC, which is like connecting it to the exchanges and stuff, which-- and then, you know, doing something like the P&L wreck, which may be one with consider-- I don't know, every place does it if you trade, but the P&L wreck, like something you have to do as well, which takes-- which is basically checking the P&L you calculate the day before is the same as well. You're given, what I'm back off with, Caesar's. And then you're blottering during the day. And then you do-- end of day process with, again, same as the beginning day, checking the position, but I'll check the P&L, reporting the P&L, all those kind of things. I guess the thing to really-- I mean, we were having this conversation with Alex with regards to-- as a junior, you're a problem solver, essentially. Yeah. And that's the only way you can add any sort of value. You know, it's-- Yeah, the risk for raw is pretty poor in that. Yeah, if you mess up-- If you mess up-- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an entirely negative skew role in that if you do it-- if you do your job well, you know, you set it the desk properly, quickly, you blotter well, not many mistakes and so on. It's like, great, you did your job. And then when you have a problem that you can't solve, it's sort of very-- it's very negative, it's sort of-- Yeah, it's just totally negative skew. You don't get congratulated for doing your job, but you do get sort of-- I can't think of anything. Like, the opposite of congratulated for not being upset. Yeah. Well, I would say like, the only upside for that would be to get a trust from the senior trader. Yeah. Like, it's the end of the day, they're not going to allow you to trade if you can't master. Yeah. So that's the only upside. But the downside, again, yeah, is sometimes it can't be p and a related. So like, it's possible to lose money if you mess up something in the admin side. So yeah. Yeah, exactly. If you-- like, anything in this, it's trading until essentially money related in the sense that if you do it-- if you mess up in some way, it is more than likely going to cost the death, which is why it becomes an issue. And I like Nathan said, if you're struggling with the admin or if you can't be trusted with admin, let me trust it to trade funds, trade money on a death. So there is definitely that aspect of it. I think that's like a basic overview of how-- I don't know. I've maybe seen that. Because it is quite intensive in a sense that, you know, I think at most-- maybe fans like Onyx or Markymakers-- as a junior, you're sort of like an off-sky as well. Yeah, when you first start. Because you're the basic-- the trade-ed system that knows what's going on as well. You can't necessarily go to a back, or he doesn't know what it is, or doesn't know what the contract you're trading is, and I don't have to explain it secondhand. So you have to be the one who's seeing it first hand and has an idea if there's any problems why they're there and how it's consulting. I will say this. I think the admin is-- like, it's not-- a lot of it is just following a process, which can be quite sort of robotic and boring. Yeah. But a lot of it also is-- I'm pretty new problem experienced. And you have to figure out based on-- yeah, you have to solve this problem you've never seen before. Yeah. And you've got a certain timeframe before the window. There's times constraints, and it's not-- it's hard to hard job. It's quite intense, but it's also-- It's like fixing your plane while flying if it's during the train day. Yeah, it's quite stressful. It's like you're trying to do, like, for you to keep up with trading. And then there's this massive issue you've also got to sort. And yeah, I guess that's when the stress comes into it. But as in-- you guys have been through it, would you say, like, it's something that it's just do it and get it done, and then it's not easier, but like, you get out of the way, or, you know, it's always it just like a steep learning curve at the beginning, you get over that hump and it's-- I think-- I think-- I guess like Nathan said, it's a good barometer of whether you'll be able to-- like, if you can't cope with the admin, you're going to be able to cope with the trading. If you can cope with the admin, you're probably-- you know, your chances are looking better at being able to cope with the trading or being able at least to pick it up quickly enough to not get left behind. So I think from that perspective, it's really useful. I also think in doing the admin, you learn-- so you don't necessarily value what you're learning, but I personally think it is really valuable. Now, you don't value it at the time, but you look back and think it's really good that I know how all these different contracts work and how they price and-- basically, all the stuff that nobody cares to read about or learn about, you have to care about because you have to know it. And I think when you eventually start trading knowing all that stuff, you don't realize how valuable it is, and a lot of people don't know how these different contracts work. I think, you know, I think it's annoying what you're doing it, but it's valuable, I think, done it, I think, is quite valuable. And I mean, would you say, like-- because I'm finding it now where it's, like I said, it's a massively deep learning on a short term. Literally since I started. Like, when the first day I was in, I was like, here's a POD. I mean, I wasn't just fully given all of it. Don't get me wrong. There was a sort of a gradual process at the same time. It was like, no, within week, you've got to be able to do this, two weeks, you'll be able to do this, you're free. So within the month, two months, it's all like the junior pass on to you, and it's like, you've got to basically be the opposite guy. Now all the trades say, whatever you want to call it, they're going to be in the desk and do all of it and be independent. Obviously, they'll always be helped to it. You can always ask some of the help if there's really something that's going to happen. that looks a bit weird, but how did you find that initial jump when you started to, when you made the jump from that to being more as a trader essentially, being more like trading? I think it's good practice. You take the job, you come in and you're expecting to hit the ground running, but the level of responsibility that I think is handed to you is quite big. I think similarly the jump between when you're sort of a junior trading underneath, somewhat, underneath the senior trader. Moving forward to a position where you're sort of autonomous almost, that again is a big leap in terms of responsibility. It's good practice being able to handle, keep calm when everything's going wrong. The admin is very stressful at times. You could have a massive position break because one of the brokers is entered a trade in wrongness and it's really hard to find because it's an obscure dip or something. You've got to fix all of that and also a lot of the tens of hundreds of trades that are happening in the background. Being able to stay calm and solve the problems while there's a fire in the other room of the building is quite. I think it's like a motivation aspect to that. You have to truly want this and you have to, I think it tests that. If you're not truly motivated for the end goal or to be a trader, you're going to feel down. Even if you do want it, I naturally like, I'll be honest. It's got me down a couple of times. I'm like, oh, I've got to go get a burger. There's another mistake. Every day I come in and there seems to be something wrong every day. And that frustration and that, you sort of question what the point of it is. But yeah, if you haven't got that headstrong, that angle, that this is what I'm going to be or look around to what you and Nathan doing and the responsibility you guys have got. I mean, a pretty short time period, I think. I don't know if you guys disagree. Well, I'm like comparing it to my friends that are working at big banks. And they won't see their own desk until, you know, four or five years into the role. Yes. And, for every listening, how long was it when you started? I've been here two years. And I'm sort of starting to set up my own thing right now. So, you know, compared to my peers in sim, I guess not necessarily similar, but compared to my peers at banks in bank trading roles, you know, I've, I'm reaching that stage a lot quicker. Although my journey there was potentially not quite as comfortable. I want to say comfortable, because I don't know how uncomfortable they're supports. But certainly the admin, I think was a lot more of a burden here than it would have been said. I definitely agree. Like I'm where I am now, whereas I wouldn't be where I am now if I was at a bank set. Swings and roundabouts are trade off. Yeah, I mean, it's different. But I totally agree with what you said in there. To get through, to get from the start of doing the admin through to the end is, you have to be quite, like you said, headstrong and know, know why you're doing what you're doing. Yeah. You know, what you're really aiming for. I definitely feel like, you know, I feel like when you're at uni, certain roles like where this M&A trading out, the glamour jobs that you were sort of told as a student, this is what, this is the end, oh, this is what you would have be or this way around fights. So everyone tries to go through the same crowd roles at all of the big banks, et cetera. I think unless you truly know why you want to do this, things like that are going to put you down. I think that I'm going to send you off and feel like, and question why you're doing this. I think the toughest thing would be that I was right. Because, you know, because say, like, if you want to progress, you have to learn certain thing about trading. So say, like, fundamental or like, curve, shaving or whatever. But then it's going to be hard to learn those things in your free time. Like, it's basically you won't have any free time. Like, you will be basically like, throw the whole day. So it's going to be quite hard to look into those things. Maybe like after work, it's going to be quite hard to focus. Well, I guess I have to, I guess by the time, say I guess half six, what's that? You've probably already had a 14 hour day. Yeah. So you don't then want, like, you probably don't finish half six. That's called a half seven. And then when you start doing the E or D, you only start doing the E or D half? Well, yeah, exactly. So you don't then, once you finish end of day, like the last thing you want to do at that point is to stay in the couple of hours reading fundamentally why the Ryan levels low means, you know, that's not what you want to do at that point. You just want to go home and eat and see. Yeah, sure. This is the obvious one. It's not just the fact that you're doing a long day. It's the intensity of the day. Like, as soon as I come in, like, the first, like, the stuff, the BOD, the EOD, your responsibility, so there's a certain level of intensity with that. But it's once trading starts and you're like, you're blottering on to any problems. There's when you really have to be switched on to what's going on around you. So, the intensity is still there. So it's a long day and an intensity. It's like you said, yeah, yeah. Get to like, like, if I leave it half, seven, eight, and you're like, what's really going on me and sleep? Because that's what we're already quite time for. And it's really hard to focus that time. Yeah. So I guess that is sort of, I think the admin is probably the worst aspect of the job. So it's probably a good thing that we covered that first. So how did you feel like you learned the, you know, how did you find the exposure to trading? How did you learn? Was it just rise mostly? So was it like, you said, did you find spare time? Was it weak lens or? For me, I think everyone's experience on X is slightly different because obviously we're a small company. We don't have a super structured. Like, the desks don't have a structure of MDVP blah, blah, blah. It's just the desks are what they are. So you're sort of at, maybe out of the mercy, it's not quite the right phrase, but you're to an extent, your progression is determined by the specific desks that you're on, and senior traders and so on. So for me, I think it can, I don't know, I'm not sure. Like, it can differ a lot depending on your senior trader, but I guess you get to a stage where you prove yourself with the admin, maybe a juniors come in and believe you're starting to take more and more stuff off you, admin wise, and then you can start looking more and more in the market, start thinking, start actually analyzing what your senior trader's doing, because that's really how, like, I think the best, like, I guess, like you said, it's a lot of it, it's just learning by osmosis, because someone can sit and tell you why they did what they did, but for me, well, for me at least, it was sort of really, like, watching the senior trader do what he was doing, and then me, like, myself, not asking him why he did that, sometimes you have to, but I used to sit there and watch what he was doing, and thinking through for myself why he was doing that, or whether I would have done it, or, you know, thinking through the process, myself, it was really helpful for me. I mean, also, you can ask any traders for sure, but for me, that's what I found most helpful. Well, about you, Nathan, I mean, you've got a pretty interesting story in terms of how you took your, how you've got responsibility on the desk, with regards to trading the buy and how you, like, oh yeah, and like, how did you learn that, or be? Yeah, let's say that story. Yeah, I don't know. So for me, so basically, when I first started, I was trading futures, because, um, I see any of the ones that made me look into futures, so that was TI and Bren. But then after that, I wanted to look into your OTC trade as well. And at that point, I knew that the desk wasn't focusing so much on the buy. So, I took the initiative to look into the buy market, and then, sported a few opportunities, and then started trading smalls for like, five KB or like, ten KB, and then started generating a tiny bit of P&L, and then, and then get to gain their trust. And then, from time to time, um, they trusted you, and then they're like, they give you more tolerance, and then, you trade larger size. I mean, you say that, but they were going to move desk, move your desk well. Oh yeah, that's true. Yeah, so that's the story we wanted to hear. Yeah, that was in there, why does it happen then, sir? Um, which part do you want to know? So, like, what are you doing with them? Why are you doing what they're doing? Why don't you stay or? Yeah, you basically said, look, I'm quite enjoying trading, but I don't think that's your story. Yeah, so basically in June, I was asked to move to feel lower desk, because that was a new desk, and then they needed people. Um, but then, knowing the fact that if I move on to the desk, um, the role is going to be more admin intensive, and I will have less opportunity to trade. Um, so I would rather stay on crude and have the alternative to trade into buy rather than helping those guys to hedge in the feel lower desk. Yeah. So I suggested that to my, um, kind of desk, and then, Basically we had a discussion and he allowed me to say I'm crude. That was early I think it's been more to you presented evidence Yeah, yeah, you bring my story Record and so on and so on. Look at the moral of the story is management listen to yeah Yeah, but because also like he was doing sick always doing as well to show you can show him black and white. It's not like it's You can just make it up That was good. I think about it the same for me the main way I've learned so far and free months is Obviously, Alex we had the prop competition. Yeah, don't want to run Where all the juniors can give him some funds and can put on prop trades They put research you better trade plan. You know Alex. I'm in your team at the moment not doing so well But you know, we've got a couple weeks ago, but you know even like when I do right when I So the last week I mean, I mean even like when I started so like a week in like you and Benny were pressure Me not pressure me, but like I only proxies. Yeah, and I'm like mate. I've been there a week I don't you know what I don't you know what the BOD is yeah But you're like no, no, you got any I like look at like you said like look at rings I looked into it put a trade plan Yeah, we didn't put it on for a reason, but it made my but like you know Made fake made fake PNO, which is the most important. Yeah. Yeah, that one we can do the second one a Greg will have was He didn't let me put on the option straight that made money as well, but you know, but even things I like Put me I wouldn't say put me on my comfort zone, but you know gave me a bit of luck in crazier and helped me learn you know Diad deep into something I think I Think essentially the reason why we pressured you somewhat was because I You come in you know, I came in from I just graduated No, you got this job and I you sit there in front of the screen especially when you first thought sort of do you know trading small and you're trading with you know oil majors big trade houses and you're sat there like why Why is my how is my view in any way shape or form going to be better or more informed than theirs and It's just total rubbish like you learn over a period of time that it doesn't matter Or you know obviously you can't just you know when I'm just punting but Everyone like no one knows where the price of Creed oil is gonna be December 2020 No one knows but and yet people said you know trading the value so I Guess we just wanted you to get involved because Once you've seen that actually After just a little bit of research you can actually form quite a quite a nuanced and And high level view on stuff But it you know it takes it takes actually doing going through that process to realize how how we are easy but You know how that it's not impossible basically yeah, I get that and I said there is no I think the main thing is there isn't a right or wrong like if you can put research and put Some as long as the met your thought makes sense and it's factual like yeah, and you can appropriate to some sort of you like People gonna believe in so if yeah, let's find if you believe that I can get I get your research unless I can fully prove that that's wrong or even Then I could just be my opinion is what to counter it Yeah, you can like I said the proquemtition is good because you can put on views in that sense I mean Nathan you work you work to another mark and make for this how would you? I'm already the same like how would you compare the culture like working culture on the trading floor? It's like um to be honest and it's actually quite similar the culture So it's gonna it's gonna be a loud noisy on trading floor people are gonna be shouting. It's gonna be intensive Yeah I'm guessing this in terms of yeah, I mean when I'm in working culture. I don't necessarily mean like oh What we're like outside of work. I mean I mean I mean when you're working on training like so it's gonna be an intensive day You just be pretty full on Like I said, there's gonna be a lot of shouting And maybe not sometimes maybe at you in a good or bad way. Yeah, I think or it's like we're broke or something Germany the level of activity on the training floor is pretty elevated and you can see it sometimes like the juniors that didn't get enough sleep And I before sort of sat there there with their eyes half closed and if if one Person on a desk is not so on the same level as everyone else. It's so noticeable I think yeah Like you can't you can't just come in and do this job. You can't just do the job You have to certainly when you start trading as well. It's almost like you know I don't know if you guys play that in a sport but before like before a rugby game everyone gets psyched up and you're you know It's a little bit it's not exactly like that but it's a little bit like that just without I think it definitely like This job is competition like no two-years-a-bout is a zero-sum game Yeah, if you're if you're not winning you're losing and someone else is winning off the back of it and The good like it's in black and white Pino relate so I think it's a good mirror to make because And with that has to come you have to be like you said super said super one it you have to be Once a pet because if your competition to next you're like sure Like you said you can end up losing monies Also I was Alex saying he's caught me sleeping at the same and he said you're high-tech No, I wasn't that said It's fun. It's fun. I think it's more of myself Speaking from personal experience. It's fun. So I've been a one-sort me I mean I was at like every trade-out on the trade for they're really competitive and they're really turned on There's a Sorry, we know what you meant So for me like basically before coming to trading I kind of said Piano target for myself and trying to keep myself like engaged and Just to like be really concentrated and so the high-tech for myself so that helps me Yeah, yeah, so giving yourself some sort of target. Yeah keeps you keep you driven. Yeah Yeah, cuz if you're not self-driven in this thing is just gonna like your fingers are point high. I'm gonna be in that way I mean it's talking of drive like I remember Like the September Saudi attacks. Yeah, like I mean no mental Nathan. What would you I was at? So basically because the because the exchange opened that 10 or like you know Yeah, so I'm that so basically came in at nine Sunday night and a stay till 7 p.m. Monday. That was pretty intensive And that was quite fun as well so because you get you actually Got to do some trades of a night. It's like after I like 4 a.m. In the morning and then Futures were super full of tell everything was like moving around a lot. That was exciting times Yeah, yeah, as in I've been a secure that yeah Someone here in here to do a shift from 11 to six But the value you said no, there was actually some value in it's really like I was really tiring. Yeah, but there was value in it Yeah, it's like one-off phase. Yeah, so kind of worth it. I'll say yeah No, that's what I mean. I've been asked the craziest for your life since then so I've been I don't know if you've got seen anything like I Think I feel like you're quite I was wet But I'm sad that I missed out on it. Yeah, I came back to you later and I was like My day my day was the same I just remember coming in like six in the morning and just seeing me for the other like I don't want to describe either. I was like this is a guy who has nothing sleep like a day or so It was exhausting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember seeing you like the first day Obviously, we don't get much sleep anywhere during the week and you were just like I'm just exhausted like I'm just naked like yeah, I was near that weekend But yeah, like I mean, that's a kind of weird things a job like this can frappe any point especially traits on a lot oil Which is so news driven yeah, where like And that's it can can call the extreme volatility I think that's that's something that's quite this quiet. I think Maybe bad if you're if you're a sleepy junior, but like sometimes like halfway through the day could be absolutely dead And then all of a sudden there's been an explosion or a finer and then everyone sort of leaps into action Yeah, and yeah, I think that like you don't really I mean, I don't think you get that and In my side of no, I mean, yeah, I think if you like Routine or you that this isn't necessarily the job for you or something you want to push forward I was I feel like I mean, there's anything honestly you think it's a good Advice or something for like maybe junior someone looking to get a job question you'd ask maybe ask me that I Just going back to talking about Do like while you're doing the admin you have to be headstrong and know what you're actually aiming for and So it'd be good to Maybe address like what the progression actually looks like I mean you guys are in a bed in me in terms of yeah Like I said earlier, on different desks, your progress at somewhat different pace is a bit of luck as well, isn't it? A little bit, yeah. But the idea is that if you do your time on admin, then Junior comes in and takes over from you, and you get more and more involved in the trading, to the point where actually you're doing enough that if you're seeing it stepping off, you're taking over a little bit, and then against the point where when you're seeing your steps off, there's no change in the throughput of the desks, so to speak. Yeah. But like obviously. I think, like you said, there's good point to make. Like I'm probably, I'm three months in, and you know, I'm thinking, "I've just long, I've got to go to admin." But then in the grand scheme of things, like, there's people here trading within, like, we're not trading, we're not talking to broke-spotting on trades within 10 months, so you're like, "Okay, I've put in a lot of effort." I'd say less than that. To a lesser degree maybe, but I think some people come in and get quite seriously involved in sort of seven or eight months. Yeah, as an asset for some sort of campaign. Or campaign, at least, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, if you're able enough, but like, yeah, in the grand scheme of things, like seven or eight months, that long? No. Probably not. In the time, right now I feel like it is. But I'm sure, I'm sure. Yeah. So, yeah, every day, I just feel like an attorney. But I feel, if I was to, let's say I go somewhere, I also something, and trade something else, and I wasn't trading within a year, I'd be like, "Oh, I'd have been trading by now." I don't necessarily know if that's an honest thing. I don't know if Nathan, you'll maybe top, or like, if the, like, said, is that hard at the beginning? Because, and there's that much responsibility to give to you, because maybe in a near-term, you'll get, be able to try to have that responsibility. Like, it's quite a quick progression in that sense. So obviously, if it's quick progression, you have to learn a lot fast. I think it's probably a lot of something that you have to push. So, if you really want to trade, it may be a good idea to, like, really push that to management, just to say, like, "I've got this idea and this idea." I can actually, like, put on trade, and get more involved in trading today. I'm sure they will listen to you. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think generally, I can't think of an example where someone who's had an idea, like, a well thought out idea, maybe a trade plan or something, and gone to management. Besides, if we don't have missions to trade those products. And management, I've said no. Because I think generally, if it's well thought out, a lot of hard work's gone into it, and it makes sense, and it makes money, I think, management. Pretty straightforward about it. Yeah, I've been asked a good thing about it. There's not much politics. I mean, yeah, like, I sit on a desk, I go on to the cosy-y-y-y-y-y-y. And you have a cosy-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y. Two doors away. Like, you're not far. It's not like, it's a mission to try and, if you want to have a word about something, or get something done. Like, I'm not going to get lost in backlog. You should just walk around and say, "Hey, this is what I think." So that's, I mean, that's a good thing, like, there's not much. I think we potentially take that for granted as well, just being able to, oh, by the way, can I do this? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think actually, a lot of places, it's, you have to get it signed off by, you know, five, six different levels of management before you can even, you know, start to point the wheels and motion. Yeah, a lot of paperwork involved. And, yeah. I guess also culturally, just going back to, because we didn't really speak that much about culture, but in terms of, I guess, you know, you could call it a flat structure, but they're basically, they're structure, but they're, you know, if you want to walk in and have a chat with Greg or Omar, you know, any of the senior traders, you know, if they're not, you know. Yeah, not busy, but there's no, I get what you mean. As it's really, there are no barriers to do that. Yeah. And, yeah. Which I think is quite potentially quite unique. But yeah. I know, I think that sums up the, the role pretty nicely. Like, the admin definitely is, is, but maybe we can talk about like, how can we prevent from being burnt out from, like, because as a junior, it's the most likely to get burnt out, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was my thing. I was, I have thought about it. So I'm like, if I'm feeling so burnt out now, yeah, when I eventually start trading more, I'm going to be even more, got the potential. No, but it's different because, because the, the skew changes, yeah, because now you can add value rather than just doing a job or, like, losing value. Yeah. And that makes it totally, I think it's totally likely to change its, that way. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and, yeah, and also you're, you're actively, everything you do is proactive, whereas a lot of what you do is a junior is largely reactive to, I mean, you know, obviously it's, like, reactive in an event sense, like an event happens, there's a risk break, there's a position break, and you have to go and do things. So, yeah. A lot of it's being on the back foot as a junior, whereas as a trader, the whole point is being on the front foot. I think the, the, the, the emotional payoff, when you start trading is totally different. Yeah. And it's much more exciting as well. Yeah. Yeah. So from that perspective, I think all of this is, is totally worth it. But, you know, it is, it's certainly very difficult. But, like, in terms of how to stop burnout, I think, there's a tendency when you start the, the admin role to, like, it's horrible, and you're doing loads of hours and so on, and you have that whole negative skew thing. So, given all of that, it's really hard to turn it around, and then me like, actually, I really like this trade, and I want to write a trade plan, and I'm going to stay until, you know, 12 tonight, and still be in the next one. You know, it's really hard to do that, and ultimately, that's the rewarding stuff that's going to, like, it's going to make you more tired. But, that, like, if you push for things like that, if you push for the trades on, that's a good thing, because it's, it's positive feedback from then. It's, yeah, it's whatever you put in, you actually do go out. Yeah. There is a, yeah, even if it's not right at this moment, there'll be a time when it will come to fruition, it'll be worth spending the next 10 minutes of hours, two hours, you know, learning something, something. Even if it's just, like, on your way home, on the bus home, you load an article before you get on the tube, and you just read through that, like an EIA article. Yeah, whatever it might be. Like, those small things, I think, make a difference. But, yeah, I think that sums up the, the Genie role, I don't think it's fairly well. It's not all doom and gloom. It certainly has its benefits. Yeah. But the admin is something definitely to be aware of. I think, yeah, I think the main thing I'm going for Mr. Chatt is, like, essentially, you guys send him to me. I'm just sticking out, but, like, there is, it does get better in a sensor. Yeah, why, you're here to be a trader in the day, and that will come just, and, yeah, and it's not, it's normal to feel like this at this point. We've all been through it, it's all a, it's a testing time in terms of how an admin sensor is. Yeah. And I think, my opinion, it's probably more admin in terms of maybe a lot of other places, because it's probably quite a newer, smaller firm. There's a lot more pressure put on the genius to do the admin side of things. There we should also say that we're moving away from that. There is, there is the intention that, there is a staggy. Yeah, yeah. So I hope that comes in soon. But yeah, I have a lot of time and effort. I think that nicely wrapped up, unless anyone's got anything else they want to say. Are they sure you want to see us out? Yeah, no, that was good. I guess if you've got any questions and you want to fire them at one of us, certainly message us on LinkedIn. We can put emails or something in the notes. But yeah, thanks for listening. This has been the OnExcommodities podcast. I'm Alex Clayton. I'm a GIP boti. I'm the failure. Thanks. Peace out.