Season 1 - Episode 9, Cat Cowey, Hyper-mobility and Movement Expert

Speaker 1 Welcome to the movement space podcast. Let's get started. Hey, welcome to the movement space podcast. Today, we have cat-cow we and I I am so excited. I met Kat through, Katie's, empowered performance program. She was a Speaker 2 speaker on there and I was so into what she was talking about. She did a Speaker 1 talk about hypermobility, which I know a lot of people I work with are very Speaker 2 interested in so Speaker 1 cat. Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and sort of how you got into this High Speaker 2 permeability route? Speaker 1 Yeah, I've been doing Speaker 2 personal training for a long time. Now Speaker 1 20 plus years, we'll just say, plus Speaker 2 I started you know, did Sports Medicine exercise, physiology did the ATC athletic certified athletic trainer for those, people don't know what a TC is thought. I wanted to become a physical therapist like Jill back then. Physical Therapy wasn't super the way, your practice looks very like fun and you can really do what you want to do. Back then it was a little bit more of the mill type of thing is what they called. It not so fun and I was just doing personal training all during school during my undergrad and graduate degree and Speaker 1 I just felt like I could, Speaker 2 that's how I could really help people. So I just stuck with personal training, that's what I've been doing Speaker 1 in the last like 10 or so. Years every time you go to a course and you're like doing all the things and I'm always like whoo like way past. What everyone else is doing and I started going, huh, I'm not so normal that everybody else. You got. If you're not watching this on YouTube, she just swung her arm back. Hide her Speaker 2 head like Gumby. Speaker 1 So yeah, the legs go everywhere, right? The Speaker 2 what you're doing? All the, you know, the FMS or whatever, right? You get a 21 and you're like, you should be great and not in pain. I'm like, hmm, got a lot of pain but I did great on your test, Speaker 1 not really So started hearing about through Speaker 2 this hypermobility, EDS did a couplet of research and then start a kind of creating my own little niche and recognizing holy moly there. A lot of people out there with this and they're super being unjust underserved for sure by the medical community as well as definitely by the strength training Community. There's because there's no research on it, right? So Speaker 1 so That's I just, I mean, I especially during covid. Like, everyone was doing, Speaker 2 you know, streaming. So people were just like, well, if I can't find, you know, be with somebody and in person where they are, they, I was getting him people from India, and turkey, and Speaker 1 Germany. Maybe loves just calling me up, because there's no one who can give them. Just general overall Speaker 2 advice and definitely specifically in the strength training. There's still no, I mean, I could look again today, Like I said, there's still no sorry there's strength training for like there's like three research articles on like no.3 and no.4 pilot studies. Speaker 1 Really? Yeah, it's really bad. That's that yeah, it's real Speaker 2 bad so crazy. That's why I'm going to have you on too. Because I think there's so many people that identify with what you're saying. Even if Speaker 1 it's not elos cam lobes, Speaker 2 which I want you to probably give us a breakdown because most listeners are going to know what that is. But even if it's Speaker 1 not to that Speaker 2 degree, I think people experience it at some level, whether it be in their elbows, or their shoulders, or their knees or like whatever. And they're not sure how to control their body in space. And so I think that's why it's Gainey hopefully traction that would start some research. And maybe you can tell us if there's anything that, you know of, but I think we're going to have a lot of lessons on this Speaker 1 podcast. Yeah, I can you like, Talk about that Spectrum a little bit Speaker 2 more of like yeah that'd be great. Speaker 1 That's the there. It is a very confusing condition because it does have this Speaker 2 huge spectrum of webinar that I did recently. I just talked about like and this researcher physician named Cass story. He's in Italy. He Speaker 1 talks about that. You can have hypermobility without hypermobile joints, but Speaker 2 have syndromes systemic system. Issues like anxiety GI issues, vascular issues, but have no hypermobility, which I have one of these clients and Speaker 1 then you can also be very Gumby, Speaker 2 the people, Speaker 1 the acrobatic World, Circus World, ballet gymnastics Pilates typical World. They might have a lot of really high Speaker 2 functioning of a woman named Jen crane with Cirque physio. She's a million followers out there. She sees very Speaker 1 high-functioning folks, she's PT Works with circus people. I think she worked with them. Cirque du Soleil and she see, they're very Gumby contortionist. But they're super high functioning. They don't have many issues and write it because it's because in general, if human beings, just have a variability of how much it was dizzy or or flexibility is in the joints. Then you can have what's called that ehlers-danlos what you Speaker 2 talked about before. Speaker 1 It's just a Danish and a French Speaker 2 dermatologist back in the 50s. They were looking at this and seeing how these people are very Speaker 1 flexible happen to also have these other things Speaker 2 going on, this autonomic nervous system issues, the GI issues that are saying the psychological anxiety issues as well. So Speaker 1 I started seeing that it affected the whole system shocker because this ehlers-danlos Syndrome Speaker 2 is a collagenous tissue disorder and I often say people who, you know, you look at Abe Lincoln right, tall, long. We would say marfanoid habitus, right? Speaker 1 He had probably most likely had Marfan Speaker 2 syndrome and actuality my, my father, my one of my great grandfather's literally looks like a blink. Any of the stove tape like hat and everything super tall very long. They that is sort of one of the phenotype of how these people end up looking like Jill your kind of long and Tall, right? You have a very marfanoid habitus narrow fixes. Yeah. Well I'm long for sure. Yes for sure. Right? I have the my waist is like Speaker 1 look he tells me the Speaker 2 giraffe. Yes yeah. Speaker 1 Waste is really short, I'm yeah. Speaker 2 And her rib cage is very narrow and her limbs or very little long-limbed. Yes got it. Got ya. The Speaker 1 long limbs is definitely Speaker 2 right complete opposite of humans, long fingers, long fingers Speaker 1 so that's all part. Is that part of it is there an actual type of like is in your hypothetical Speaker 2 that a phenotype of? Yeah. How you look right? Is that a Speaker 1 seated with hypermobility or can it just be like anybody that it's common? It's very Ramen. I also have a Speaker 2 EDS gal. That's she's not at all. She's kind of short, Stout doesn't look at all like, that's why it was actually hard for her to get diagnosed because she didn't look the part, right? Speaker 1 So that's what's frustrating to you get all these different, right? But she's super super Speaker 2 Gumby. Speaker 1 So you just have this big huge. Speaker 2 You can have people who are totally disabled, they're not going to work. They have tons of paint, ons of a lot, a lot of steps. Symptoms going on. But then you can also have these folks that are just, they could be could be termed Joint hypermobility Syndrome and they can be just Speaker 1 fine there. They're Speaker 2 flexible but no no issues going on. They're just happy campers. Speaker 1 So that's kind of where the they would say. The big Speaker 2 umbrella is called hypermobility Spectrum disorders. So it starts with Joint hypermobility Syndrome and then goes to ehlers-danlos syndrome and even within the ehlers-danlos syndrome you can have there's actually with the fifteen to twenty percent of folks that probably have some sort of hypermobility issue. Only about maybe they say like three to five percent actually probably have ehlers-danlos. Hmm. Speaker 1 So there's maybe, you know, 10% that Speaker 2 are symptomatic total. So I'm quite Speaker 1 so I like to tell people like you can be Gumby and you can be totally fine because I don't like to pathologized everything though. They're like, oh my God, I am I gonna fall apart. I'm like, no, it's you might be Speaker 2 fine. Speaker 1 And like I find Speaker 2 muscle those folks that put muscle down. Really easily and whore who train from a very early age, right? That, you know, the epigenetics right of how that works. I you got a certain Gene genetic disorder or something or genetic issue and then you put on top of it, the epigenetics the training nutrition trauma. Any of those other Speaker 1 things can change your Speaker 2 genes to either facilitate, you know, make something better or worse. Okay. And so I think sometimes, My theory is oh, I wonder if ballet and gymnastics often the training starts very, very early, Speaker 1 so they are putting down Speaker 2 muscle and is that muscle being protective for them and help you know will help them out for the long term, right? Sorry. But that might be some of the Speaker 1 circus performers when you first said that I thought Speaker 2 that because you're doing well because they're in a way loading their body, so often, and how long? Yeah. And it's probably started at a very young age. Yeah. But I think a lot of them also do probably have problems. I have, I've had two women that are coaches for circus. Go through the course. And the first PRI course, I took I've got ended up making a friend with a guy who was sitting next to me and worked for the circus circus. Lay in Orlando, and he was saying how many problems they had, so maybe we just saw. So don't hear. Speaker 1 So there's a lot of that too. So they say like, oh, fifteen to twenty percent but I Feeling is probably closer to 20% because there's been such a Speaker 2 lack of of people knowing that they have it and just a lack of awareness of the whole thing. And then a lot of these circuits and gymnast folks. What do they do? They sit there quiet about it. Yeah like Speaker 1 that's fine. That was great. So type A like I'm gonna be perfect. Nothing's wrong. Feel like I'm just exploding from the inside but all's good. Yeah. Right. Mean, the classic is that Kerri strug, right? That when she's like, bam, she landed. And her leg was like, probably broken in three places and she's like, Speaker 2 Yeah, that was oh actually Speaker 1 can you can you you said you know I have a real high permeability is a connective tissue Speaker 2 disease, Speaker 1 can you talk? And then you said, you know, it's associated with autonomic nervous system and anxiety issues and GI and Vascular. Can you? I kind of always like to understand like the why instead of just being like Oh there's like this list and it's like can do Speaker 2 this. Speaker 1 Can you kind of explain like why I like Would all connects the dots together. Speaker 2 Yeah, so I love. I'm exactly like you sometimes. I think you're in my head when you have your Instagram posts. Oh my Speaker 1 God, there's a camera and she's something very similar brains. And I, that's how I'm always like what's the, why why is this happening? Why? And when you say that, right hip mobility connective tissue disorder with some folks, there is a connective tissue Speaker 2 disorder. They actually don't make their connective tissue that they make is Isn't the Integrity? Isn't that great, with some folks? They just have Speaker 1 just more Speaker 2 elasticity and or write the nine factors that make up flexibility. Is it just bony prominences? Is it the way that the, you know, morphology of the joint makes them flexible. So there's no collagenous issue going on there. That's what I like to tell people as well. It's not always a collagenous disorder, okay? And Speaker 1 some of the reasons I think I had this Speaker 2 in Katie's so part of the reason Speaker 1 If you do have a collagenous issue, ehlers-danlos were like, oh, okay, this makes sense. Where do we have Speaker 2 collagen? Hmm, like Speaker 1 everywhere, right? And one of the big ones is in our vascular system, so our vascular system, the blood vessels, right? They stretch out, but we're not super elastic, right? Elastic to notes that you're going to snap back, right? We don't snap back, we stretch out, Shit. We don't come back with that one out, so we don't come back so so great. So the blood goes down into our system especially when we're standing the blood goes down into our legs. Stretch is that vessel Speaker 2 out but oh gee. Speaker 1 Oh, we've got a squeeze that blood back up that whole tube standing tube, like like a, like a toothpaste tube back to get to venous return for your head and your heart, Speaker 2 right? We don't do that. Super quick. So Speaker 1 one of the ways we have a lot of redundancies to keep Speaker 2 our blood pressure up, right? We have one way valves. We have rate we have we can pump out a journal in which is one of the things that we do. So Speaker 1 hyper mobile is that is what Speaker 2 we often do. We just pump out the adrenaline to vasoconstrict the blood vessels. Okay so Speaker 1 interesting. What is it Rental into when you pump it out? Exactly. You had a few Red Bulls or you have a detective or why a lot of hyper Mobile's tend to be super Speaker 2 fidgety, right? It's twofold one. We've got a lot at our Speaker 1 sympathetic nervous. System is jacked up now, but we're also literally trying to regulate our nervous Speaker 2 system. So those those of you are not on the video and just Speaker 1 listening to the podcast, if you have your knees crunched up. Like right, I'm showing my knees crunched up. You'll see a lot of hyper mobiles like to sit like this. Speaker 2 With knees up because they're just basically trying to regulate their blood pressure and high pressure up, right? Speaker 1 So this is like light bulbs are going off to a lot of people. It was this Speaker 2 one Blair grub I think is his name. He's a cardiologist. And he had a teenager who is in his office and a teenager with with the parents. Speaker 1 And she he Goes, oh, yes. They'll often sit with their knees up, you know, at the dinner table. Yeah, and my parents were, she was like, see, there's a reason I do that at the dinner table because they were always telling her, bring her knees like out, you know, sit properly. Like Speaker 2 a lady. Speaker 1 I do have to it dinner tables. I do it at friends, that like, it's like, I don't even realize it and then I realized how inappropriate is, but I'm like I it's just so natural and for me to just have like that? Yeah, yeah. Not a lot of time. Yeah, I always have the knee and if you actually what I did When I did a Speaker 2 seminar where I was in person, shocker, Speaker 1 we're in person and it was after, and I was listening to something someone Speaker 2 else talk and Speaker 1 I was in the back of the room and every Speaker 2 hypermobile ended up in the back of the room or on the sides of the room sitting Speaker 1 down on the floor Speaker 2 so they can have their feet up and they just sort of and they have to move all that Speaker 1 sprays. So you're doing it to regulate your blood pressure but in turn your also regulating Your sympathetic nervous system because you're not having to pump Speaker 2 out so much adrenaline right. Actually, it's Speaker 1 calming in Speaker 2 a way like this Speaker 1 forever Mobile's to do that but they don't realize why it's so Speaker 2 interesting. Yeah, that's that behavior. You know, Behavior created by biology, right? Noticing. A lot of behavior that people have oceans because you have some neurotransmitter not doing something. Oh, cuz you have, you are literally trying to regulate and, or modulate or modify, or create homeostasis. Some Now by your behavior. So is something Speaker 1 so like kinetic Kidz, Why are they so kinetic? Probably because they have maybe they're nervous system pumps Speaker 2 out a ton of adrenaline and they, you know, they need to like be moving and then we say, oh no, you must be like that. Sir, you must fit in the Square. It's like no. Like yeah. The last I went to Zach couples thing in Vegas and I was like, Speaker 1 yep. Okay, I need to sit here on the floor. I need to be lying down. And I was like, I don't care anymore. What is she doing? Lying down my head on a medicine ball and like did today I'm good to Speaker 2 go. Wow I Speaker 1 bet you had a field day, I don't know if he still has this. What did you Speaker 2 go recently? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think you had a field day with, you know, how maybe it's not, miss course anymore. But when you think about like the ectomorph both verses in no more in like he kind of has that chart of like why didn't they? I would like the different shapes. Yes yeah Speaker 1 I'm like how you can I bet you were like well that person clearly gets to regulate pressure better than base and idea hot mess. It's really like fascinating when you start to think Speaker 2 about the body types and how that pressure. Yeah, I Speaker 1 was going to ask you to like in terms of Speaker 2 estrogen production, do you think that plays a part because Keith bars done, a lot of research with like the inhibition of lysyl, oxidase and then in that like creating more Jigeon. Yeah, so and I tried to contact contact Keith bar one time but got crickets. I think I'm just going to start putting MD behind my name and Speaker 1 just you just fake it. So I can get an answer from somebody so I can get in 720p. HD lpt, I don't know. Whatever, something, will you pay attention to me? So I'm like I just have a question to ask Speaker 2 because I would love to see right? The study that he had I Wandering the city that he had. That talked about number, Speaker 1 he had the like you take a collagen Speaker 2 like the the jello whatever, take it an hour before doing the jumping, Speaker 1 and he made some of that other study Speaker 2 about the time of the month. Like it was based. I'm pretty sure it was based on the ovulation cycle and yes, very nice. And then when that being more than article, I Canta nasan. And with coupled with With the menstrual cycle Speaker 1 in general. The stuff that Speaker 2 I do know right there, CO2 tolerance goes down during the luteal phase. Okay, that's right. Back in increased respiration rate and then decrease pain, tolerance, during that time sense. If you think about it? Yeah, like a cardiorespiratory system to like, just? Yeah. So it affects every, that's why Speaker 1 when I was programming for you Speaker 2 should be like, I'm getting too tired, doing this Speaker 1 because you're having a regulate so much. Speaker 2 Side of just the typical you know blood pressure and heart rate increases and all that stuff. Yeah it's Bonkers. It's just it's a lot and if every part energy expenditure to yeah. General like yes. Yeah. So it's a lot it was interesting that the flexibility research guy Israel's name because now it's like, you know, them from their Instagram thing and I like just use your name. He had won that, right? He had an article on. Of course I couldn't access it because it hasn't even think it's been published yet. But it was saying, oh, you know, the menstrual cycle didn't affect the flexibility. I was like, I don't Speaker 1 know. I've seen some other research that says Speaker 2 different hard for me to wrap my brain around. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. We'll see. Like whenever that gets published, I'm like I'll try to get access Through it. But, yeah, Speaker 1 I kind of connect, those dots, what's with the, okay, so GI stuff. Yes, mm. Damn thing. The dots for me on Speaker 2 that one, she's having a whole most moment right now in her life. Know, I get a lot of Speaker 1 touches me. I mean, it is about me, but I did No one's talking about this. Do you know anything about this? What are your resources? And I'm like, I just have to have cat on the podcast so she so can you talk a little bit more about the connective tissue in the Speaker 2 GI and how that's affected by high permeability? Yeah, so there's the GI system is so right. The second brain. It's the whole enteric nervous system. It has like a million neurons and 100 and some neurotransmitters, right? Speaker 1 It's It's literally, it's such a complex condition Speaker 2 itself or system itself, but in general again, theoretical Speaker 1 because there's not a ton of research, but your gut has is a collagenous system as well. So they sometimes same thing. The bolus, you know, of waste doesn't go through as fast. So sometimes if it's slower, Then you got that sibo, small intestinal bowel, you Speaker 2 know, overgrowth. So a lot of people have sibo. A lot of have, a lot of people have IBS, but you Speaker 1 can also have folks that they have their doesn't go slow. It goes Speaker 2 too fast. I have one, right? So they either have constipation or diarrhea, super fun, right? So either one Speaker 1 because so some people the, the diarrhea can sometimes come Speaker 2 from the sympathetic nervous system, right? So if you're if you're sympathetic If you're going to have its going to go too fast through, right? So Speaker 1 it's all and then just Speaker 2 dysautonomia in general. Which for those folks who don't know is actually a lot of the covid folks. I'm like sorry for all the people, the covid folks who are having dysautonomia but yay. Speaker 1 We hopefully we have more research into just autonomia is basically the dysregulation of Speaker 2 your autonomic nervous system. So everything that we take for granted our respiratory, our heart, Upbeat are our digestion Speaker 1 is all Speaker 2 not super regulated and so we just did not regulated. Like what does that mean? So right there heart rate, variability will be not great. I can go into heart rate variability you can go on for days. Also again not a ton of research but Speaker 1 so your heart rate. So an example like with myself Speaker 2 to use myself as an example is My resting heart rate can be like 45, right? Speaker 1 If I go run up a hill it can go up to Speaker 2 195. Got it. That's a Speaker 1 huge variation, right? If you have someone who's like Speaker 2 especially when I was running right I was very it. Can have a very slow at you know you have a good stroke volume so Runners. They tend to have slow, right? They just have beat and tons of blood goes out. Good. Nice healthy heart. But that usually corresponds with you know their heart rates not going to get up that high if you have that nice, good healthy heart, but mine rate. I get this. If I'm running sympathetic nervous system and my whole systems like what? I don't know. Shit 195. That sounds good and my this watch will just say no Zone. I don't know what the hell you're doing. Are you dead? Like this Speaker 1 is so interesting and it goes. Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah because it doesn't know how to regulate and then same thing digestion. Maybe Speaker 1 your National go. Yeah I guess so. Go through that know, maybe this fast I don't know. Should we shoot out some Cola 16? Right. Should we should we shoot out captain of shirt? Maybe not no. Nevermind just kidding. Like it's basically a confused kid. The way to explain it though. Like the way you're explaining. This is Speaker 2 yas'm. Like, it'll make it sense to a lot of people, right? I have two children, Speaker 1 so yeah. Speaker 2 The time. So that's sort of it's just this Speaker 1 and it also you can see like Speaker 2 it's rains on a horse, right? That that's definitely the heart rate variability, right? The reins on the horse, what are SA node is actually set for 105 108 or something beats per minute. Right? It's our, we want to be our, we should be in our parasympathetic nervous system. Most of the time, right? We should be in rest and digest. A nice little gazelle, sitting in the prairie like, Speaker 1 lalala shit. Tiger sympathetic nervous system, boom, run away and then be able to come Speaker 2 back down right? When that sympathetic, you Speaker 1 actually get an inhibition of Speaker 2 your parasympathetic to bring that heart rate up high and Speaker 1 it's just all that ability Speaker 2 to come down, go up. And just basically creating that homeostasis state is not great. When you have dysautonomia heart, rate breath rate, Anything that goes on on and off automatically right temperature. Regulation were crappy at temperature regulation client who she literally moved to Oakland because it had the most temperate. She looked, she grew up in Texas and was like, we're on Speaker 1 this map. Is it like 70 degrees all Speaker 2 the time? And Speaker 1 so like you just mean, like if it's Speaker 2 called, you're always cold when it's called. And if it's hires Diane when it's hot. Like there's no. Speaker 1 Yeah. It's they I find and I have Speaker 2 no, you know. Art on this. I find most of them. Just don't like the hot very much the cold, they can kind of handle, but actually, before when I before kids, I couldn't handle cold and or Hots, I was happy there. Now my whatever they did they blew out all my like blood vessels or something much better. I don't have the rain odds anymore, which is the you know, you don't get great circulation and your hands or your feet Raynaud's is very common in hyper Moguls. Speaker 1 That's so interesting. I used to get that all the time and I don't have Speaker 2 it since pregnancy. Either the kid, right? Isn't that Speaker 1 weird? I'm glad I can't even recall the last time and it was probably definitely before Quincy, that is Speaker 2 strange. That weird. I'd, yeah, it was like, kids and I was Speaker 1 like, huh, my fingers, don't turn white anymore. I'll take it. I also trained really differently before Speaker 2 kids. Yeah. So I wonder if that also has something to do. I didn't do as much like heavy strength work Huh, I'm trying to think if I yeah I probably didn't do as much strength that I did that I do now but yeah Speaker 1 no it's feel like right after them. Speaker 2 Speaking of that. Yeah. Like what are the Speaker 1 I guess how can people Speaker 2 is their tools to regulate their autonomic nervous system better? Like obviously we know, strength training that sort of thing but like what do you tell your clients on an everyday? Speaker 1 So the nervous system stuff that's kind of Speaker 2 what's interesting to me now especially with all this covid stuff. Because so many people now, are there the same as like I was like, I don't want to get covid because oh my God, I already, I'm already a covid, like, Long Speaker 1 Haul covid. I don't use it on top of it, even living with long haul covid for your whole life, my whole life. So, regulating, I think, you guys have looked at some of this stuff, Tough of like like tapping into the lymphatic system but that also this vagal Speaker 2 stimulation. This vagus nerve stuff is definitely Speaker 1 and actually I find my kid and then myself I noticed it my kid and I was like oh my God he like always kind of sings and hums and just like and just sort of does that and I'm like oh my God, I do that too. Yeah probably trying to tap into my vagus nerve because right, Speaker 2 Michael Mullen has that hole. Sheet on vagus nerve and try to stimulate vagus nerve because if you stimulate your vagus nerve, you tap into the parasympathetic nervous system more, so right? It's the singing humming gargling cold water on the face. All of those things can just it just calms the system. Speaker 1 And then there's the Speaker 2 tapping and the massaging and bouncing and well, Speaker 1 anything they Speaker 2 can do to basically biohack their system to bring written, you know, regulate and it's really just plugging into that parasympathetic nervous system because they're so always over on that sympathetic. So anything you can biohack Speaker 1 and whatever it is for some people. It might be jumping up and down listening to heavy metal. I don't know, I don't care. Whatever works for your nervous system, right? So it's it has to be very, Speaker 2 I always just ask them. I'm like, what is the thing that calms you or? What is the thing that makes you go, right? The exhale exhales parasympathetic, right? What is that thing that does that for you? I know the paint right, nice cup of tea and or like a lot of bouncing stuff the Deep breath, whenever I'm doing talks and I have the breath page, I'll be talking like this. I'll do the breath page. Speaker 1 I'm like everybody. Take a nice, exhale? Alright. Well, I like take a few exhales Speaker 2 and then the rest of my talk is like, regulation, not talking as fast. Yeah, they probably everybody. Does that to a degree? Oh yeah, no, it has works for everybody ready. Speaker 1 So then how do you introduce? Because I'm, we all have to be able to get into a sympathetic Speaker 2 State and be able to recover from it. So is there some sort of protocol that you use to just do enough without over stimulating? And how do you even manage to regulate that with your clients to when they're training? You need to get when they're Speaker 1 training. Like and how do you know when's a good stopping point? Speaker 2 Hey, I've taken this person up this high in their training, we're doing plyos or something, but and I want to get them up there, but how do I be careful that? I'm not over stimulating her. They can't get back down and then they're going to have shitty recovery and they're not really going to get the results that it's just seems like you have to take a lot into account all the time. Yeah. Yeah. You do. And it's, that's where it's every single person is individual. Like, when I talk about like group classes or something, like, I could never do a group class with the hypermobile is because they're all so different and some people Speaker 1 if they're Speaker 2 super one, you also have to take in consideration, they're all the other things, right? But I was like a social, are they stressed out in general, the global low-hanging fruit of what's going on in their world. I had a woman who The Stepfather was like in the hospital. She was traveling. She was not at home. Speaker 1 She was so stressed out. She's like, oh my God, a pain in my knees. I have this eyelid. I was like oh shit. And I literally was just all we did was I was like, get on the ground, just roll Speaker 2 around. I was like just roll, flop, flop around, flip and Speaker 1 flop. Have her stand up workouts, or yeah, getting on those days that I'm like, I'm so like out of my mind, don't even know what to do. I just roll around on the ground. It's kind of the best somatic like, because the ground it's literally grounding and your whole body, feels the ground, your whole body goes, oh I'm cradled. I'm taking care of, okay? You do that and just doing that. And then you're able to like Speaker 2 your Our Kind is Speaker 1 rocking and there's that, that that rhythmic thing that you're talking about for the nervous system and the Velar. Yep. But it's just she shoes are able to just kind of slide along each other and then the whole and also you when you go on the ground, what did you Speaker 2 just do you regulate your blood pressure? To your body, doesn't have to worry about it because you're now we were Speaker 1 Silly like all the animals there on all fours. Duh. That like haha, that's Speaker 2 super smart. What did we do getting up on two legs? That was really Zillow is now have to regulate this whole. We have to pump that blood all the way up that system. That's another area. That might be interesting to researchers like shut I mean, I'm sure DNS might have some research but about like the developmental stages and if you progress as a child out of crawling too fast, then you're not developing that like compression Speaker 1 ability like a you know like you can imagine, this could start really Speaker 2 young and yeah buddy. I found it fascinating. However everyone I feel like then again we're in this PRI bubble that we live in, right? Everyone say Speaker 1 compression tubes. Yeah, packages Speaker 2 of are, right? I just say we're bags of air and liquid, right? Speaker 1 But our bags of air and liquid are Speaker 2 not their integrity is compromised. So even like like a uterus, right will stretch out more and like just take up more space. Our digestion, same thing like will take up more space because it'll stretch out more. So last come out of pressure is needed to to Like elongate a package, you know, a stomach, and a, any of the tubes and or sacks of air and liquid that we have. So what does that affect do right? Again, no, research on this, but theoretically sort of thinking in those modes of all the stuff that they have to deal with and I've had Speaker 1 people like create Areas of hypo Mobility to manage their High permeability and also. And also do you think that people can develop High permeability because they are high poem about like is there like a chicken and egg thing there that happens? So yeah, even within a person, right? So you can have. So most hyper mobiles almost all of them. They become really, really symptomatic, musculoskeletal e if they Speaker 2 Don't have any of these typos mobile joints, okay? Speaker 1 Most of my clients, there's always going to be an area because we have to hold on somewhere. We gotta anchor somewhere. So a lot of times the rate is calf, it'll be a little bit, maybe anterior, Speaker 2 hip Speaker 1 thoracic, upper thoracic. Those are some of the areas where I see like, oh yeah, you're not moving their right, they move everywhere Speaker 2 else, but not so much in one or two joints, Speaker 1 and then you can have like you said, like a hypo. A mobile Speaker 2 person, Speaker 1 sometimes you'll get like, a friend of mine. He just wanted to get a ton Speaker 2 of range of motion and shoulder and Speaker 1 he just blew past all the ligaments and just created this Speaker 2 hypermobile shoulder because you want to do these things I'm like Speaker 1 that's cool. See how that feels when you're 70 but whatever that's different than the high permeability of somebody who's on like this spectrum of Speaker 2 connective tissue, for sure this order that you're talking about. So there aren't Speaker 1 Are different types Speaker 2 of hypermobility that you could classify based on mechanism of how you got there. Exactly. Because you can just create an in like an injury. S, vivent can create a hypermobile shoulder. If your, if your multi multiple dislocations subluxations of your shoulder right? Ankles, shoulders and ankles, obviously are the ones that often but they'll just have that one joint but then that one joint will act like a hypermobile person. That's why he's a like, you can learn About this High permeability. But then, if Speaker 1 you have people who have Speaker 2 happened to have a joint that doesn't quite, you know, like Speaker 1 stay in position like this Speaker 2 video, you are going going out and popping your shoulder in and out of Speaker 1 place. Very well, you're kind of like when we when people are trying to understand if this is them or not, like I have a client who's showed that to their day and I was like, oh my God you're like the Dietrich girl like yeah it's like oh yeah. You want to see more and she's like doing all these like she's like I can crush a beer can between my shoulder blades and I am. Yep, cool, dude, that's what it was. Oh my God, it's m shoulder blades. Speaker 2 Yeah, you knew that one. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's in the Brighton criteria. The diagnostic criteria that doctors asked a bunch of questions. It literally is like number three. Speaker 1 Did you used to do party tricks when you were young? I mean it's wise was like this. Wait, this is for Real this isn't a journal article because they all do it their all the good they can like them do this my elbows Speaker 2 go like, right. And Speaker 1 what's the double jointed thing is that real? Or is that a myth? Is that what's up? Just Speaker 2 the term that was used that 20, some years ago, that was the term that was used. Yeah. Okay. It caught up, that was just the Layman's. Turbines term. Got it? Yeah, for sure. Speaker 1 As you get older, you're saying when you were younger, could you do these party tricks? So hyper mobile is as they get older, do they stiffen up or like? How does that? How does this evolve? They can stiffen up like everybody else, but they can still maintain Speaker 2 it. You can have the 90 year old, who keeps up for yoga practice for, you know, her whole life and still be pretty Gumby. But if you don't practice it and I definitely feel more much more stiffness than I used to. Speaker 1 Yes. And no. It's weird because I was so used to like sitting in a certain position or something and I was like that was so comfortable, right? And now it's like, oh, oh, oh that's a little, oh, getting out of that slow stuff. Right. But like, my hamstrings, Speaker 2 that is probably good because now, oh shocker. Now I can feel hamstring when I do a deadlift, but when I first started doing deadlifts and Speaker 1 like hamstring, What? Like because when you can Palm the floor, there's no tension. There's nothing there to give you a signal. Oh, you might want to use Speaker 2 this muscle because you're getting nothing from. Yeah. From this is the thinking about makes me think of France Posh and like taking muscle slack out of you know the eclair getting very good at decreasing muscles like which basically in his terms is just like creating this co-contraction of all the muscles so you're reducing the slack. And for someone like you it seems like that would just be A wonderful to have lots of that in your life. Drag Speaker 1 this that mean, this is like my little mascot for those of you who aren't watching. There's Speaker 2 that. Yeah, it's like the little toy that you get, that's that you push from the bottom and you take away all the last disa T have a lot of folks who are Speaker 1 like, oh, I feel so, especially for us. Twenty years ago. It was like, oh, you sit up straight and shoulders back and sitting up straight is very hard for us, right? I always give the Sample of the guy on the airplane. He can use. He has tension in just the passive Speaker 2 tissues that hold. I'm holding a little dragon on Speaker 1 the Silastic thing, right? They can hold the head up, hold these Wings up no energy, right? There's no energy going into this system but for hypermobile, Speaker 2 there's no, it's completely lacks and slack. So there's all this slack. Speaker 1 So we have to use all of this muscle to To hold Speaker 2 a posture straight up Speaker 1 or just just sitting up straight takes more Speaker 2 energy Speaker 1 so it's more tiring and Speaker 2 that's one of the things that contributes to fatigue. There's about a million things that contribute to fatigue. Yeah. Just living Speaker 1 life. Speaker 2 Yeah. Just sitting up straight in a chair is like Speaker 1 wow, you want me to sit in this chair for how long shit? Okay, I can do this. That's why you get all the fidgeting in the adjusting and making a lot. Our muscles than your normal person has to, and I see people when they sit there like this, and I know that they don't have to put any energy to be here. If I didn't put any energy in the system collapse, right? Speaker 2 Eye at like our, have you ever like Jill you Speaker 1 might being on a plane? Like, you know, if I have to try to sleep in a plane, I have to like, yeah, ake out all the slack and then it is now I can relax, obviously, that's what you're doing. You're curling up is taking out all the slack. Like that's how you think about it to relax like to give if I have to if if I have to relax and not use any muscle to Speaker 2 yep. Then you have that you just fall, you kind of collapse Speaker 1 so you can spend the energy, the energy, so you can fall Speaker 2 asleep. Speaker 1 Well, that's why. I mean that's why a lot of times in my I realized I was I was at a hotel with Speaker 2 a friend of mine and I will Speaker 1 lay down in bed and I was like, oh she's like you literally just got giddy getting in the bed to fall asleep because it just feels so nice to just be flayed. Speaker 2 Out flat. I just oh Speaker 1 my gosh all the time I go to the dentist and you know like nobody likes go the dentist but you get in a dentist's chair in your like oh yeah it's the best place ever. Our whole system just goes, oh for the love of God, I get to relax. Now, do pray that the same token, do you however most have trouble falling getting to sleep? Is there some other sleep issues? Because that's kind of like, oh yeah. So they had sleep apnea and that's the thing that's like tubes and Speaker 2 and and the Speaker 1 sleep apnea, right? If they're an extension and the diaphragms back. And right, so they can Speaker 2 have sleep issues Speaker 1 that way, then pain. So pain and fatigue are the two biggest symptoms with Hyper Mobile's Speaker 2 pain. What is pain do real hard to sleep with pain, right? A woman that I just had she's thankfully we've got her now where she? She was like Speaker 1 yeah I wake up for five times a night with a lot of pain and Speaker 2 RSI and stuff. And she just couldn't she couldn't sleep because She was just tons and tons of pain. So their sleep gets affected by jacked-up sympathetic nervous system. So they can't rest, they have pain, then the IV stuff might bug them in the night. So you've got all the stuff that they, there was another Allan Poe stinky. I think he had a talk and he had done a sleep study on this woman. She's like I said, fine, I was Speaker 1 eight hours and he saw like she woke up, you know, the mic. Grow Speaker 2 the little you kind of wake up a little bit you but you don't recognize it so there's you can wake up for less than a minute or more than a minute and she did, you know, hundred and twenty five times a night of just waking up, right? Speaker 1 So they don't know that they get crappy Speaker 2 sleep, but yeah, it's not restorative sleep. Do you Speaker 1 feel like that's you because I feel like that's me. Yeah, I've tried to that's why I got Speaker 2 this silly or a ring. What about this? But that you Speaker 1 were telling me about that probably. Yeah and I I'm not suit. I'm not totally sold. I think it's good to get to sort of recognize and see. It's made me get a more regular Speaker 2 sleep timing but the some of the things about Speaker 1 it because we have such Speaker 2 dishonor anomia, Speaker 1 the like Readiness score. Speaker 2 A lot of the stuff that this thing is picking up. Yeah, it's Hughes. It's like, I don't know. You're not like, normal people. What the hell is this? Your HRV is like, 30 like 20, right? Speaker 1 So I'm not I've I think it makes people aware but I don't some people. They can get too anxious about Speaker 2 it about the data getting. Yeah yeah. And then it would like prevent them from working on things because they're afraid. Yeah, yeah Speaker 1 don't know. Like, oh my God I'm that's not Speaker 2 me. I honestly thought about 14 years or some sort of sleep, but then I'm like, oh, I know. My sleep is not great. And is it going to stress me out? Or can I just try to keep like doing a little Speaker 1 bit better? But I bet Speaker 2 it, you know, 9:00 every night like whatever it is and I'm relatively like, Speaker 1 okay, like with pushing Speaker 2 my body and not, but I can imagine if you were nervous about stuff is like going to the gym, meeting with your trainer. It's done. I'm going to get sore, it's going to be hard. I'm going to be tired. And then this thing tells I'm not ready? Speaker 1 Yep. No. I really don't want to do it, you know. Yeah. Oh yeah, Speaker 2 yeah. Yeah. It's a little. I don't know. Yeah, I have a love-hate relationship and like, that's kind of cool. Then, it's not Speaker 1 kind, already know. I get crabby sleep. Like, I don't need proof. My six-year-old Speaker 2 with different types of Training in terms of like more overcoming or concentric or like springy type activities like stiffness versus doing more yielding. I'm just curious because I have no idea about this and whether one would be better for you than the other Speaker 1 great people. Like, how like, when I was working with you, as like, the co-contraction Speaker 2 stuff, I think is great for folks, just because it's like, okay, learn how to bloody contract, anything because it creates tension in them, so that's great. But the energy stuff like we were saying before. It's super independent like dependent on who you're working with the very individual and I often just really slowly like I don't work in Plyometrics till who Waits far Speaker 1 unless they have an athletic Speaker 2 background. Like a woman have two different people. One is not an athlete at all so I'm it's going to be a while till I do anything. That's Like any sort of speed or any of that sort of stuff because she can't regulate it another woman who was a kind of sweet. Will start doing the deadlifts and she's like, oh, this is nice. Speaker 1 This is fun. Like, deadlifts are probably the Speaker 2 most. It just feels the best to hyper mobiles, especially with the hip issues. Yeah, just brings everything together for her. I think I'll have a much quicker because she's a basketball player, right? She understands it. You know, Speaker 1 getting that defensive stance like like Speaker 2 she can she just Speaker 1 knows what's needed. Speaker 2 So for her I might be able to do that a little bit quicker, but then you're dealing with the fatigue stuff and she gets migraine stuff migraines. Are also a big symptom with with Hyper mobiles and if we look at the Spectrum, I was wondering about is it if something is more hypertrophy based and the metabolic symptoms are more for Recovery versus if something strength. Students more nervous system stimulating like, which one, which side of the coin or is that also just very different depending on the person. Speaker 1 It's just super different than nervous system for myself. Like a hot like a higher intensity, like a deadlift, I definitely know. I'm like okay Speaker 2 I'm going to be pretty wiped. So again, like I might not do anything the next day or it might just just walks. While slowly, I walk very fast but I'll Walk, you know, slower walk or not just not very far. Speaker 1 I have definitely been playing because I don't have a huge. You know, Speaker 2 I have maybe seven or eight, you know, hyper Mobile's that I have two as my end and number right? My sample study so it's not huge. So I do a lot on myself of just. And I've really decrease the dosage and found, I can still granted my training age right eye. Done quite a bit. So for Speaker 1 a long, long time, Speaker 2 like, you know, I see you doing weights. I'm like, oh my God, I couldn't think of lifting that much weight Speaker 1 but like, for me I'm like, oh I can see, you know, do 85 Speaker 2 pounds or, you know, get to putting the 225s on the side that used to terrify me Speaker 1 and with not doing much straining at all. I can kind of go back to a 95 and be like, okay that's it died with that was okay. I stayed Speaker 2 together and was able to lift it. Yeah. But I'm not doing very much strength training just because I found I just get hurt. I just constantly. Yeah that's what I was wondering. How much like isometrics would be really good. They are his son if they are nah they're Speaker 1 going. They're hard because from a sensory standpoint like the can't feel like where's be with them. Speaker 2 It will that one, but I find a Speaker 1 few, you know, Speaker 2 Up Speaker 1 against the wall or do like, the more references. You have that little easier, but it's the same thing here, like Keith Bar Speaker 2 talks about this and isometric, actually isn't ever an isometric, right? All right? You got it, because you hold it and then the tissue creeps. Yeah? Right. So you're never really truly ever doing an isometric. And how much creep do you think we're going to have a person who does, who has a lot of tension? They're not going to have as much. Reap so hence and isometric is going to be more attentive, more exercise. Yeah. And I thought about that one time like are we in Speaker 1 essence always sort of doing more weight. Speaker 2 Yeah. Normal person because we don't have, we don't have the free energy of a non contractile tissue to lift the weight, so it all has to go into the muscle. So like is a 10-pound weight, the same as a 10-pound weight for somebody else. Same length, save someone has the same length stuff, right lever. Lever length. It was me just going off in my life lessons actually to me and the way that you explain it. Yeah that's interesting. Somebody needs to do some research on that where it's like we followed this protocol. This in. It could be like, you know, more overcoming isometrics versus yielding versus like Speed strength versus and then like I don't catch Speaker 1 like good luck, they won't do research on anything. Never mind that your lady and you have those silly harm. It's all because your identities. Speaker 2 Why would we do exercise on you? Like yeah, and actually I Speaker 1 bet. Well, maybe this Speaker 2 is wrong Speaker 1 as an essay. Do you notice between Speaker 2 genders Of a, the, like, a hypermobile male versus I burp? Yeah, Speaker 1 the I mean, I think the testosterone and muscle are Speaker 2 protective for them. So, I just, they haven't seen that Speaker 1 research of this, symptomatic, Speaker 2 how would be an awesome research to for anybody who's listening? Speaker 1 That's grant money. Speaker 2 Yes. If the right, if they're if take 20, hypermobile men, 20, hypermobile women Who are these guys are? The guys are the men less symptomatic than writer only four of these you know, or 5% of these symptomatic and the women are 15%, symptomatic occurs, you know, that would be an interesting, but I do find even in women, just muscle. You put down more muscles. Protective, my people who write, I have a client who's she's a little bit more overweight and she just, she has its protected her in terms of the blood pressure. Because she just She's got more that whole thing, these pressure, she's got more muscles, you got strong, strong legs, and it one of the redundancies for regulating blood pressures, the skeletal muscle pump. So she's got these big cats that can push blood back up the system. And that's another thing. If you have someone who's kind of hypotonic like like kind of flaccid in their legs, their, their skeletal muscle pump, one of the things that helps their blood pressure is Isn't as strong. Which is do you like 200 calf raises the day. There you go. Kid. Speaker 1 Huge gaps. Now, asking this one for a friend. Do you think that still her show? Do you think that people, you said that gaining muscle is protective people? Maybe have a hard time. Generating strength, do you think that maybe they would grip their muscles? And Certain areas in an effort to create stability in a system that's all Gumby. Interests. You saying like the Speaker 2 gripping right, that they did? They're just like Speaker 1 not want to lock down a joint for example, you know, like maybe you know, things like Speaker 2 that. Speaker 1 I'm thinking more, I don't know like abdominal gripping, John gripping neck, Speaker 2 tensioning, those type of it, I think I know where you are with UT moment Speaker 1 for clenching. Yeah, because they're doing and I find some of that. I hate saying the motor morons like folks who don't? We don't you just call me who we don't know where we don't know what to do. We don't have like the movement Speaker 2 pattern stuff for the like kind of knowing what in the world are body. Just doesn't even know what to clench what to work. So it just works everything or anything that it can that it can get a sense of and, or that is used to Contracting. Right. So maybe like those AB right? The rectus abdominus dominant people Speaker 1 like maybe that's like their sternum and their pelvis like come together. Well and that's okay. I can feel that I have that's Speaker 2 where you know that's so that's what they use. Are pressurizing from around whatever holds on whatever Speaker 1 tends to get stimulated. They'll be like yeah I'll use that. Speaker 2 That's a good strategy and it's whatever. Gee. Maybe their hips are in a way that their pelvic floor. Just goes and they just or it's a Speaker 1 symptom of the Speaker 2 stress response. Speaker 1 Yeah, it can be. Yeah. The glove jaw clenching. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's more. That's the taipei's or sympathetic nervous system that. Yeah, that's kind of more in that realm and if they get to teach them new strategies then I mean that that client who she was doing a ton of yoga. Not no weights, right? And I Speaker 1 didn't say, don't do her you all guys. Just like, no, just we'll have you explore this Speaker 2 but she started now she's like oh these weights feel much better. I'm not in a much. And as much pain, Speaker 1 maybe, I'll kind of step away from Speaker 2 the yoga for. Now, I'd love Speaker 1 her to go back to it. She loves it. Speaker 2 But for right now probably better that she goes with the weights and then she's starting Speaker 1 to recognize Speaker 2 different. Oh, jeez, to use to hold her hips together to not give her a ton of pain in the hip so it's just giving her a different strategy and a lot of it was through breath and posture position because she's super long. She's the 5-11 very, very long torso history of broken ribs. I'll see ya. All sorts of things going on. This is all like fascinating, like I could, this is fast again. I think about how much connected Speaker 1 Like her entire body is made out of connective tissue, right? Like and so now my brains like thinking speech and like vocal cords and like all that kind of stuff and like how exhausting that how much more exhausting that would be for Speaker 2 sale and it was actually with the respiration. Like I used to not be able to I taught at State, I taught a lab and I Speaker 1 was wasted after because I didn't have the Speaker 2 breath stuff under control so I couldn't Like, get my voice to go very far. And then also, just then then I had to use this a lot, you know, use my food a lot more once I got all the Speaker 1 breath stuff. Now, I forget it was somebody who'd seen me talk to different times and she said, oh my God. Where did that voice come from? Like I Speaker 2 learned how to breathe, I don't know. Like so it was. I'm much better. Just throwing my voice. Then I used to because I used twice, right? Gymnastics, you're like thing. Not good for breathing. That makes a lot of so interesting. It's the same as yours. They have a lot of. Yeah. Like this Speaker 1 really cool for people who like you said, maybe some older people or people who have lost the party trick by maybe they like didn't wreck like identify as a hyper mobile but now they're experiencing some of those other symptoms and they're like nobody can put it together for them and they don't know why. And then if you ask them about like how flexible Bubble where you as a kid that can blend. Nice question in Speaker 2 your intake form to sort of Speaker 1 help somebody put it all together because it's such a frustrating thing. I think there's so many, it's like a mystery diagnosis that people are dealing with so often and this is probably one of them where they're just like I have all these things and nobody can tell me what it is, you know. Yeah. And my I have a 65 year old clients before and that is she has no Speaker 2 flexibility left like nothing nowhere Speaker 1 but just as She was talking, I was just like, wow, she's got anxiety. She's got IBS shot stuff. She's got a lot of joint, pain issues, sleep stuff. She just started going on. I'm like, we flexible as a child to call. Yeah, I'd sit. That was the other. You have sitting with the knees back. Right? How kids off and sit? Yeah, he's flipped back, she had all the finger stuff she had. All she was super Speaker 2 flexible as a kid and I think she was even maybe a dancer, but, you know, she's 65 years old and you do Don't think. And so I do try to tell him like you gotta tell these doctors that you're going to that you're probably an EDS person and she just Speaker 1 she forgets to bring it up, but it's huge for these Speaker 2 doctors to understand what's going on. Yeah, the media actually they have they need more anesthetic something random. I'm actually the out but yeah, Speaker 1 they it does seem like one of those things that if you're You're not like completely disabled by this type of Mobility than like, you Speaker 2 must not have. Hello stammers? You know what I mean? Speaker 1 Like, there's this like, you're either completely extreme or you just don't have Speaker 2 it, you know. And I think that, yeah, that's sort of a mentality that would be nice if we could push some, like, educate people. I've watched on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 It's very it's very Speaker 2 individual. Every person I have to like really just Speaker 1 Figure out, I can go. Oh, do you have this this and that? And they'll say yes? Yes, yes, no not at all. Like, it'll always be something where they're like, I don't experience that at Speaker 2 all. There's they're like they'll Speaker 1 have a lot of the symptoms but Speaker 2 some or one or all you know that they have a completely different experience. Most of them are this very extended with the Speaker 1 pelvis way, and anterior tilt because there's a lot of dancing to new people that I have. Complete opposite. They're tucked under their pelvises are moot way. So I have to constantly unlike no no. Don't talk to your already there. Never mind. Okay. See you? Well, I make are in that position as a protective mechanism because I do see that way back posture. Yeah, it's like this closing everything in the front. Yeah, yeah. And she she's tall and so I think she may be tall. People tend to come down like that, and I think she may be just Speaker 2 Um because she's 50 some years old, right? And so you think my sister's the same 511 and they you know back then it was like women Speaker 1 like oh yeah you don't want to be tote. All Speaker 2 right, so she may be crunched herself down to make sense. Yeah. So cat Speaker 1 where can people learn more about? I know you have things on your website. Like, how can they get? Yeah. You Speaker 2 know if they have questions or kind of do you offer but you do this Speaker 1 right now. Yeah. Speaker 2 I don't do any classes. I mean, I'm just doing like, right. I'm just doing the training. I do have, I don't know, two or three courses on my on my website that people can just buy off the website. I knew I do need to put the webinar that I just did. I think it's on. You can get it on yoga, research and Beyond, but I'm going to try to put it on my, my, my website as well that they can get. It's the three. Hey hip. Do you do Speaker 1 like online consult or anything for People think they got, that's what I did a lot Speaker 2 like during covid. I had a ton of people just call on him, like, sure. I'll talk to you for an hour or, you know. Yeah. Speaker 1 Because I feel like that would be awesome. Just have to somebody because then I get a lot of questions like well I don't know if I'm supposed to do this and I'm not, I don't know if it's supposed to do this and, you know, just to walk people through their movement patterns and maybe if you're talking about those, like, give them all references and just show them how like easy things to kind of that they could do Speaker 2 differently, you know? Yeah. And that's what I'd sort of like to almost, either need to put Maybe put something together because there's a lot of stuff recently. A lot of lot of like the myth stuff and I find if you also you know having 40 or 50 year old clients, they're stuck in all this myth of what stuff stuff they have on pain and the ideas that they have. So I'm having to debunk a lot of stuff recently. I'm like, oh my God, I just need to like, just look at this, or look at that. And I have a lot of that in those courses. A lot of stuff that we've been talking Talking about a bunch of podcasts out. I think if you just put my name in right. I've done a done several podcasts. Yeah, I mean, that likes the stuff. I was into that you've done is been like, like eye-opening, so. I think that that's a lot of information. I'm always, I'm Speaker 1 Liza. Kay hope you taught that all Speaker 2 so many systems that you're dealing with. So it's a lot. It's a lot of topics to cover. Yeah, I mean I know people still Comment because you're in my guest speaker library and people still like every single course. I have people comment on yours. Yeah and I think people see it and they're like oh hypermobility I want to go watch that because if there's something that's registering them that they're going lady, I'm hypermobile you know you guys probably know. Yeah I'm sure you get a lot of people who don't like sometimes, it's hard to get people to listen because they're like, oh I don't have that but they realize like oh there he might have a lot of people who have it who actually have it. No, I wish more People would be aware of it. But yeah, I love doing consults because I like just talking about all this stuff and and inform. It's just, I just want to inform as many people as I can. Speaker 1 Awesome. Well obviously, I'll be setting something up. So thank you. Yeah, it's all about her stuff. Speaker 2 Instagram very much because I just because of the things energy. I'm like to do Speaker 1 all the filming. Yeah. But Speaker 2 the other day like I was so tired. I actually started with the rolling and the rolling just sort of like it at least. Just got like the body moving and slowly got me into doing a small exercise routine versus doing nothing. That's a good point. Yes? Yeah, just do it. It first and then you feel like you want to move. So if you Speaker 1 go to the gym, like I want to be here, my body hurts and this is what am I going to do? Just roll around for 10 minutes and then you'll be like, and you know what I find when I'm rolling around all these other ideas start coming. Like it's like a brainstorming session. I don't Oh, it's like focuses my brain for me because you're calling your nervous system down. So you can think you can be go to Speaker 2 your frontal cortex, right? Because now you have access to front moving in your amygdala Speaker 1 Jill's, gonna be rolling around Speaker 2 between every single class. She's just gonna get on the floor and rock herself. Speaker 1 No, I'll write like, I'm gonna minutes late. You'll drown too clean. Speaker 2 Yeah, maybe I will post those because I was because the fatigue has been real recently especially because I have dealt with the death of a family member that that's been surprising. And one of my clients is also been dealing dealt with a family member who is who is ill and it again it's just going back to. Like Speaker 1 I literally just took a stick and Speaker 2 just move the stick around and just dropped it and just Speaker 1 okay, boom, just drop the stick around and just catch Speaker 2 it. Cool Gadget prop. It just feel like I just was doing something very, very simple Speaker 1 and then just the move, just, Speaker 2 right? Just like rhythmic kind of movement. Probably just chilled me out. And then I ended up doing a 20-minute 30-minute workout, but just super slow. When I was super stressed, when the right after the death, it was it was I just walked All I did. I was like, that's all it's gonna happen and I'm sure right? Katie you dealt with a lot of strategy that's probably be definitely. I am just coming out of I mean if I'm being honest like pretty bad depression and just exhaustion and then getting covid on top of it was like the nail in the coffin. And think I called Jill, or you called me one day and I was just like crying and just like I I'm not okay like Like my whole system just was like, oh, it's finally hitting cause you first, you're in like fight or flight mode for a long time saying popping out that adrenaline constantly. So it feels like you have energy to be able to do things that you really are just getting ready to just tanked. Yep. Yeah. And I'm not really used to that because I've never had any. I don't have a lot of experiences with, you know, I'm not hypermobile and in fact, I was a gymnast but I think I was the person who was just straight like they were like, stretching me because I didn't have That natural tendency in my body because I much public muscularly driven. Yep. Yeah so I've never really experienced that type of exhaustion so I think stress can also Speaker 1 but it gives me a sense Speaker 2 for what it must feel like to be living in a body that's working. So hard all the time and feeling that amount of tiredness. Yeah. You have no idea. Speaker 1 You have to honor that fatigue and stress. It's like it hits me. Kind of like it is exhausting, it's tiring. And My husband's always liked. Are you tired all the time? Like tire, but I can't stop at the same time like it's, yes, that is how you are? Yeah, like yeah. Like this, like this, and she's fast and she's Speaker 2 quick. Yeah, yeah, I've tried to get a, that's how I was for all my 20s and 30s. Just like, that's why my Master's by the time I was 24. I was Speaker 1 like, okay, done with that? Yeah, let's go. Okay, let's do the next thing. So I just feel like on speed but it's like, natural speed that your body is producing all the Speaker 2 time. Yeah, feed all the time. This Speaker 2 The first time in my life where I'm just like Speaker 1 it's all good. If I sit nice good, Speaker 2 you just like me to like totally. Uh-huh. That's so interesting. I'm going to think so much about this conversation now and just like to and especially in my mentorship because there's so many different humans that come through. Yep. And some of them are just not cut out for those workouts. I did want to mention that Speaker 1 huberman podcast, Do you guys know that guy? I've heard of them. Yeah, I've heard of them. He's got a lot of great stuff. He's here at Stanford. Speaker 2 He had a woman Alia crumb on. Okay. Speaker 1 And I love the way especially for hyper mobiles the way she's looking Speaker 2 at stress because and it's a much different way. It's like embracing stress, right? An exercise routine as weight training Speaker 1 is a stress, but it's good, right? So Speaker 2 as you stress right thing, Speaker 1 not seeing it as something evil. Speaker 2 Because we are already seen as like this fragile thing the hypermobile is like, I'm so Speaker 1 broken. I'm fragile and this and that I'm jacked up. Speaker 2 Instead of thinking of that really trying to embrace challenge to challenge body, a challenging stressor death or whatever job and sort of seeing it, as an opportunity, seeing them as opportunities, right? Flipping the script into, and that's sort of again, what I like, I'm always just trying to empower. Our and create agency in my clients to so Speaker 1 that we can try to, like, not feel like this all the Speaker 2 time. Right? So I just wanted to mention that because I did, I really liked her, I think that's Speaker 1 awesome because there is such a frustrating chronically, frustrating Speaker 2 component to it, that wears on you over time and you do start to think, like, just how you're never going to get better and you're never. Speaker 1 Feel better. And it's just it's exactly that it's mentally exhausting to thinking, like, why can't I do Speaker 2 this? Like why can't I move like hate when nobody can but why good? Speaker 1 Yeah, I think honoring it and just going like it's okay, it's accepting it and not and kind of just going on fix it, you know. Yeah, if I have a feeling like I often try to tell people like it's Speaker 2 the invisible invisible syndromes, right? We can look at you Speaker 1 and go g. He's, you're fit, you're good, you're Speaker 2 what's wrong with you, right? So it's Speaker 1 invisible. But I'm always trying to say, Well, yeah, if you didn't, if your arm was broken, you would honor that your arm is broken and do the things that you need to do to work Speaker 2 around that broken arm. So why don't we also then give ourselves a break? You don't need to do the six thousand things. You don't need to make the cupcakes by go by the cupcakes. Like go like rate and some folks, right? They they do have to wear the people who have to work like, for jobs and do have 3 kids and all the stuff that like I don't know how they do it but they do Speaker 1 like the first step is always admitting that you have a problem, right? You're right. The awareness piece that you're bringing here where people can actually start to identify themselves with. This is really important, because they can go shit. That's me. Awesome. Now, I can give myself a break, like I know this is part of it. I can pull out. I could give myself time like I need the time. This is part of what's going to make me healthy Speaker 2 and make your significant others as well. Like really Informed as well because so they don't go Jesus. Why are you tired all the time? Why can't you let go to the concert and then wake up and go for the hike and do the thing and do the unlike because my nervous system is like this, to can't go to a concert for very long because it's not slot on my system. Speaker 1 And then we were timeout, family, they're like, projecting it back on. Is there something I'm doing wrong? Like, why don't you want to hang out? Like, why can't like, why are you great at work? Your fist? This is not like I'm fine at work because I have to be, I'm on on, on, on on on on. And then I go home and I'm like, nobody talked to me like I can't, you know, I mean, and so it's like you end up dumping sometimes on your family because you're just drained because you've been so much in other parts of your life. So I think that's a really good point. The family Dynamic needs to Speaker 2 understand a little bit more about what's going on inside of you, you know? Yeah, once my husband understood more, he's much more. He's like, oh, I get it. You like, you need to, you need to hang, okay? You need to just lie down for a while. Okay, sounds good. It's just much more understanding. Yeah, I am being okay. With having boundaries for yourself because I know when I ever since things and really for my whole Speaker 1 life, I am kind of Speaker 2 a homebody like I've done the traveling all over the world. I've done all that stuff. But yeah, I really like I like I never want to go to a concert. I hate it. It makes me like cringe because I it leaves me Speaker 1 so exhausted and I'm not a type Speaker 2 of mobile but that's just a Civic. A lot of people Speaker 1 in the world sensory I'm just sent. I Speaker 2 am saying I have a lot of I think I threw myself at understanding how I do have Sensory issues like heightened, smell takes all of that is a lot for me and just putting the boundaries in but also I was thinking for our the people are going to watch this. There's maybe a lot of movement professionals like being able to find empathy for our clients that are saying to us. I'm going to be so tired. This is I can't do what you're asking me to not pushing them and recognizing that quality over Speaker 1 quantity is usually going Speaker 2 to be very important, especially for all your folks who have there's so many people have these group things or the Speaker 1 monthly thing of, you know, similar to what you have like. Okay this is the program and they have Speaker 2 a sort of wrote program that they do for everybody. You can't Speaker 1 like got to get out of that Speaker 2 thing of doing the Rope program for this population. Hmm. You know Speaker 1 you know what we'll just Speaker 2 do. I'm just going to give you a two-time a week program and we're going to see how this goes. It might be a six-week program instead of four weeks. We'll see. Let's do a, you know, I mean Speaker 1 you really have to think Speaker 2 outside the box and your Speaker 1 You have to be very different and you might even go. It's only gonna be a Speaker 2 20-minute program. It's just 20 minutes of exercise something, you know. Just you really have to modify for my own body. That's what I found to be kind of the thing. That's good. I go in, I'm like three exercises. Okay, Speaker 1 go through that. Maybe three like nine exercises, total. I'll be like, okay, I'm done for today. I cannot now. Does it just need a little bit of load to the Speaker 2 system and Speaker 1 I'm strong enough to do the things that I want to Speaker 2 do, do you know, would it be great to do all these jumpy thing? He's jumped food like all, you know, tons of heavy weight. Sure that would be great. But do I need it for my general lifestyle, do you? Yeah. Speaker 1 All right, well, thanks so much for doing this with us. This was, we need to come on for a man to in a little bit, but now I know there's so many things, Speaker 2 lots of things. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 What's your website? It's fit wise. Fitt wi Ze Speaker 2 s f as in San Francisco.com. Okay. Well, put out on the show notes but you said people. Yeah. Awesome, Speaker 1 cat Cow. We thank you. Thank you. Thank you girls. Thank you for watching and listening to the movement space podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to share it on your favorite social media. See you next time.