Season 1: Episode 11. Social Class Considerations within Clinical Psychology

[Music] Hello and welcome to What About Us, Cultural Arrhylas and Clinical Practice. I'm Kate Cooper and today we're joined by Dr. Joe Daniels, who's a senior lecturer and the academic director for the Doctorate in Clinical Psychology at the University of Bath. Now for the episode this week we wanted to expand the conversation about diversity in clinical psychology and to talk about class. So today, Joe Daniels will be talking about her experience of being from a working class background and being a practitioner in clinical psychology. So over to the interview. So we're joined today by Dr. Joe Daniels and we're going to talk about her experiences of diversity in the clinical psychology profession. So welcome, Joe. Thank you. I just want to start by asking you what experiences of yours drew you to be a guest on this podcast? I guess I feel like issues relating to class or associate economic status are talked about enough and I think it's where there's a lot of growth in other areas of diversity. We have really open discussions around things that feel very visible such as gender, race, I think issues relating to background diversity. I think I'm talked about very much and it feels like these are really important issues that should be spoken about as well in terms of context, particularly because I think it's not well represented in our profession. But super helpful and I'm so glad that you did and you are being a guest on the podcast today and because I agree that it's really important we do talk about this and I wanted to do you have any thoughts about why this isn't a difference that's being talked about in the profession of a moment? Yeah, it's a good question. I think partly it's really invisible and I think the issues that me talking about such as stigma and internalized shame and having people having to compromise their identity are the issues that are invisible. So I think with coming from a different background in a profession that is predominantly middle class, I think you have a choice because I'm from a what I would term as a working class background myself and I think there's a choice that you have to make where you either stay in yourself and you'll sort of really connect with your roots and it becomes quite clear that you're from a different background or you try and merge into the middle class or try and fit in and by doing so you do compromise sometimes who you are. So I think it's the fact that it's really difficult, it's really challenging and it's not very visible that difference because I think a lot of us from a working class background feel the need to fit in and to not draw attention to it. So therefore the minute you do attention to it you're also exposing yourself in some ways because I think it feels really important to on your roots and we do talk a lot about that in clinical psychology is trying to be authentic and congruent and and that's certainly what we teach and you know forms part of our therapy and that unconditional positive regard and but when it comes to something like this and I'm sure that class isn't it's not exclusive to class I imagine that it is to some of these you know other diverse graves but I for me it's very palpable that you sort of have to make that decision now are you going to make it obvious or you're going to pretend it doesn't it's not there and I think that can make you feel a little guilty as well. So I think there's a real incongruence that you live with that makes it invisible but also I think there's things like you know really really noticeable differences so people from working class backgrounds they may not necessarily have a gap year or they may talk differently or you know and I think these things can make you feel really different and nobody wants to really feel different nobody really likes to talk about hardships in actual hardship in some ways that's considered vulgar you know so a lot of the issues associated with coming from a more difficult background in terms of so they can make status of things that people don't want to talk about because it makes them feel really uncomfortable. And it's so interesting listening to you talk about that I'm reminded of previous episodes of the podcast when we've had people from different cultural backgrounds talk about that kind of assimilation into a profession of clinical psychology and maybe having to use a very different style of communication or a different style of language when working in clinical settings in order to kind of get by and be taken seriously really and again that kind of betrayal of their cultural identity so it's so interesting to hear you talk about that in terms of class identity and I guess I was really intrigued I'm wondering what strategies have you used having this kind of working class background and you talked about kind of the assimilation what are what strategies have you used in your career? You mean to make it less visible? Yeah how have you how have you dealt with having this difference that other people might not know about how have you navigated that have you used different different kind of approaches over the years and how has that gone? Yeah so I think I read a little bit around this before I came on and and also I've been aware of some some other discussions going on in clinical psychology around around the challenges of working class and I've been really interested to see what other people have done as well and what one thing I took away from what I've read is is that people from working class background do have an inherent sense of self-determinism and a really strong work ethic and that's not to say that people from other groups don't have that but it feels like a defining feature because you know if you to define it really clearly working class is where you only have your labour to sell and that you don't have any other means of generating income and so I think to me like that self-determinism really defines who I am and that wasn't until recently I realised that actually that's probably where that's come from that's probably the origin if they're really strong work ethic and that's all you've got really and so you need to go for it and I think there's a really pivotal point for me where I'd finished my undergraduate degree and I very much relied on finances from the state and you know I've had sort of more difficult stories than mine my background but for me you know I've since very finished my undergraduate degree I lived in a council flat and survived on benefits until I got a job and and I can't imagine there's that many people in my profession now that can say they experience something like that you know I didn't really have very much but I was really determined to get on to training because that's what I lived for really but I remember applying to training and speaking to a particular programme that I'd been rejected from and they said to me well you know to be honest because you've got a degree from where you've got it from you're going to need a master's degree and I was really angry because I had gone to the university that I had because I had no idea how to choose universities or first person in my family I went for university that was in a nice place because that's what I valued and I had no idea that that was going to affect the rest of my life so when I got to I thought I that self-determinism came out and I thought I'm not accepting that that's not okay I that's not okay as a barrier that I refuse to be refused take access my dream that I've worked so hard for and for other people to be advantaged because of you know finances and I made my mind up then there's no way I was not going to get on to clinical psychotic training so I think the thing that's driven me through is you know that refuse or really that self-determinism that I must push forward and I must work hard and I did and I eventually got there but it wasn't easy and I didn't get straight on and you know I didn't come from a good university background but there's been other smaller things like the way that I talk is definitely different from how it was before you know often I'm in my telephone voice I'm turning on who I'm talking to and I I won't necessarily have drawn attention to certain facts or parts of my background but I think it isn't until I've become more experienced and more senior that I've felt comfortable to say actually this is a badge of honour this isn't you know I shouldn't be ashamed of this I should be helping other people to see and actually visible so that other people can think that this is a profession that welcomes people from a diverse background from this angle as well but I think for me I just worked really very very hard and tried to detract from anything as we all do really. that made me look different and tried not to expose myself as being from a different background. But it's always been there, it's really palpable. It's only now a point in my life where I think, actually this is about diversity and while I'm embracing it in other groups, I need to embrace it myself as well and recognise that actually from this conference background it also brings a lot of benefits in this profession. Oh yeah and it's totally understandable that there was a point in your career where it felt like less possible to talk about that difference and now that you're in a position where and you're more senior and you have more of a platform that you can talk about it more. I guess there's a couple of things I want to ask but I just wanted to go back to what was it like for you that experience have maybe tried to hide that difference when you were earlier in your career? It was just really uncomfortable. It feels like you're less credible and I guess that's the difference now being experienced is that I've demonstrated my credibility to a degree, but back then I think it just felt like there was a lack of equity that I felt like I had to do more to get where I wanted to be, whereas I was seeing other people sailing past me and I thought that's not about intelligence particularly, which it felt like it should be that there was, you know I'm a film believer in a sort of meritocracy that people should get ahead based on their efforts and work and I guess it felt like I was always having to work that little bit harder and that in some way I wasn't okay or good enough and I think it gives that message that you're not quite the same, you're not quite good enough and actually it's much more complicated than that but I think at that time in my life I didn't really have a framework around it, I didn't really understand. It was only until recently though I thought actually that's what that was about for me, but in the same way that anger that I felt when that person said and I remember it so acutely, I was actually in a dressing room in a shop trying something on when I got the call was really a pivotal moment and I just got so angry and I was just fused and I think that's that all of that anger feeling like there was a lack of equality that's when that came out and really drove me on really, but it's not a pleasant feeling to be othered in that way. Absolutely and I'm just wondering, I mean you talked about you know society should be a meritocracy, I totally agree with you, I'm wondering aside from like wide scale societal overall whether there are any small things that helped you along the way of it could have been different would have helped you at back phase. I mean I think obviously I didn't have finances at my disposal and I know that would have made a huge significant difference or having parents from a more educated background to helping form my university choices or you know the kinds of extracurricular things that I could have done that have made me appear more well rounded and you know all of these attractive qualities. So I think that lack of knowledge of the academic world I think feels really important, I had no idea what they were expecting. I thought in again it was a really identifying with that working class ethic, I thought if I just worked really really hard I would get there you know and so I think yeah I think it's mainly that I think the financial support and also the support of putting that in place where somebody is able to tell me the kinds of things I needed to say, the kinds of things I needed to do and I do that now and I mentor a number of people who are trying to get into you know assistant roles or clinical psychology and I look over their CVs and I look over the application forms and draw out what they actually the strengths of their experience because I think you're sort of talked to hide it rather than bring out the benefits of coming from a background that's a little bit different. I mean there's so much more that can be brought out in terms of strengths and you know I think if I'd have had that I think that mentorship that I'm offering to others or trying to offer to others I think that would have been a huge, really huge difference. Yeah absolutely and you've just made me think as well that the school you go to and the education that you have up until the age of 18 has a huge impact on the way that you kind of talk about your experience not only on the actual experiences that you get because of the connections that you have but also the way you talk about that experience and I think yeah depending on your background there are groups of people who are taught to be very confident and really put their achievements at the front and then there are other groups that are taught to almost do the opposite and that can have a profound effect on what the way that people present the experience that they have in their CV so it sounds brilliant the work that you're doing to help people who are in a similar position to one you and I guess I wanted to ask about and so now that you are and you do have lots of experience you're in a much more senior position at a university what has it been like being a bit more open about your background with colleagues? I guess I'm not that open but my intention is different now so I'm not that open because I don't want to leave with that because it doesn't define me so I'm not I suppose I don't talk about it very much but if it's relevant that's when it comes into the conversation and it still feels a little bit uncomfortable but I remember only a few years ago a colleague of mine mentioned something about their childhood that sounded like their family really didn't have very much money and they were talking about it openly and I was really taking a back and I was really impressed that they were able to do that and I'm thinking I really wish I could do that and I'm able to do that now and the same way that person didn't talk about it all the time neither do I it's not as part of who I am but we're all so complex that you know we show different facets at different times so I I don't talk about it very much in the sense that somebody from a medical aspect friend wouldn't necessarily talk about it the much either but I guess what I do try and do is just sit with that discomfort and not let it sway me in any direction not let it moderate or censor my experience or my conversation or if somebody else is talking to me about their background particularly if it's a trainee or a student or if you know particularly if they're facing difficulty then I do then try and show some shared experience and validation you know you know without taking away from them obviously but for me I think it's it's now about acknowledging that as part of who I am and being comfortable to talk about it if and when it's appropriate but and you mentioned you you would kind of maybe share your experiences with a trainee if it would be helpful for them I wonder and does your background influence your work in any other ways? That's a good question I mean I don't it's not an area that I research I I mean I think I also make sure that we take these things into account as I guess I've gotten awareness in my research of accounting for issues associated with financial hardship when I'm doing my research I think it's really important to gather all of the relevant data and to interpret it in a broad context I think context is really central so I suppose in that way I'm more aware than I may have been of the broader context I think where it influenced me most and this is going back to what the benefits are of coming from my background is that I can really connect with my patients sometimes on a really different level so I remember one particular patient where she'd come from a really she's written real hardship and she was a single parent I was really struggling and you know she was sort of saying that this isn't my mental health isn't my biggest problem right now the fact that I can't I don't have any electricity at home that's that's my biggest problem right now and how are you going to help with that and I really feel that acutely you know I can I really can connect with what that's like and and how it's important to not say yeah but we're going to talk about mental health right now because context is so powerful so I suppose it really influences that work because I can I feel like I've got an understanding that I wouldn't have had and then I also bring that I'd like to think I've been that optimism and hope in some degree and while I don't talk about it in my therapy I get a really strong sense that my patients I don't know have the sense of it that that I'm not in an ivory tower that I'm a human being as well and that I have may have shared experiences but that my focus remains on them. That's a really positive message, I'm really glad to hear that. I wonder if you had any advice to people who are in a similar position to the one you were in early in your career and who want to get into the profession of clinical psychology, is there anything that you wish you'd known at that time? That's such a difficult question because it's so easy for me in my position now to just say, "Keep going." But it's not that easy. It's really hard and there are people who are in a much more difficult position than I was for sure. I think what did help me along was hearing people somewhere along the line saying, "Keep going, just keep working, keep going." And I guess I have to give that message is if you really want this, please keep going. But also I think find someone who can mentor you. And if you don't know someone, approach a training programme because I really have confidence in my colleagues and I really think that if people were able to reach out, then I think we should be able to help. I'd like to, you know, I spy that there's one day some more formal mechanism that we can support people. But just find somebody who believes in you, whether it's a supervisor, you know, can go say, "Do you supervise or a research supervisor or a support in a support-wikeral?" And I think the BIPM as much as you can, as much as you're comfortable on the application force for clearing house because, you know, speaking as a programme member, we do read into these things. We do see these things. And even, you know, roles like support-wikerales or nursing system roles, you know, the more messy roles. That's really important experience. So try not too much, I think, to compromise who you are because I think that authenticity is really vital. So I think it's around that. And whoever finds someone who believes in you and try and believe in yourself, I guess. That is so helpful. And I'm sure so many of our listeners are going to find that incredibly useful advice, whether they're from a working class background or from another diverse background that we don't see enough people of in the profession. And especially as you do work on a declin programme, I think, that will be really valuable for many people. Thank you so much to Joe for taking the time to talk to us on the podcast today. So we'll be back in November for another episode. So do tune in then. That's all for now. Thank you and goodbye.